:00:00. > :00:07.The ceasefire's holding in Syria, but what happens when the US
:00:08. > :00:09.and Russia have to share intelligence and coordinate military
:00:10. > :00:22.I think it's very hard to see how anyone can trust the Russians.
:00:23. > :00:24.They have committed war crime after war crime
:00:25. > :00:29.We'll put that to the man who, until recently, was Barack Obama's
:00:30. > :00:36.Also tonight, if the Boundary Review goes ahead, many Labour MPs
:00:37. > :00:40.Might the party see selection battles as
:00:41. > :00:49.I think constituents who are not part of a political party would look
:00:50. > :00:52.very poorly upon factions coming in to deselect
:00:53. > :00:59.MPs go through reselection battles, we have always had that,
:01:00. > :01:02.but to target people in a sectarian way, we don't want that.
:01:03. > :01:05.And Israel's greatest author, Amoz Oz, on traitors,
:01:06. > :01:10.anti-semitism and the cultural boycott of Israel.
:01:11. > :01:14.It hardens the Israeli resistance, it deepens the Israeli paranoia,
:01:15. > :01:19.the whole world is against us, always has been against us,
:01:20. > :01:23.they don't even discriminate between one Israeli and the next,
:01:24. > :01:26.they boycott every one of us, whatever we are going to do,
:01:27. > :01:34.they are going to hate us so let's be the bad guys.
:01:35. > :01:41.The ceasefire in Syria brokered by the United States and Russia
:01:42. > :01:49.appears to be holding after the first 24 hours,
:01:50. > :01:52.but the UN is yet to deliver aid because of security concerns.
:01:53. > :01:54.Central to this ceasefire deal is the continued targeting
:01:55. > :01:57.of Islamic State and other Jihadi groups by US and Russian warplanes.
:01:58. > :02:00.But what is the mechanism for coordinating military action
:02:01. > :02:04.when time and again, in events reminiscent of the Cold War,
:02:05. > :02:07.there appear to be thinly veiled acts of aggression between the two -
:02:08. > :02:11.most recently the news from the Pentagon that last week
:02:12. > :02:15.a Russian fighter jet flew within ten feet of a US Navy spy
:02:16. > :02:35.The aftermath of a Russian air strike in Syria last year. They had
:02:36. > :02:45.been accused of repeatedly targeting American backed rebel, more than
:02:46. > :02:52.Isis. As tensions rose between the two powers, Russian jets buzzed US
:02:53. > :02:57.warships and planes in the Baltic. In June, Russia even bombed this
:02:58. > :03:01.military camp in Syria, used by moderate rebels. Russia said they
:03:02. > :03:08.thought it was an Isis camp but just 24 hours earlier your special forces
:03:09. > :03:12.and the SNES had been there. -- US special forces and the SAS. In a
:03:13. > :03:15.major turnaround, America and Russia are committing to work together in
:03:16. > :03:20.Syria. If the ceasefire continues to hold for a week, they will establish
:03:21. > :03:25.a joint intelligence committee to coordinate attacks against the
:03:26. > :03:31.jihadist group formally known as Al-Nusra. We are trying to take
:03:32. > :03:35.Assad 's air forces out of the equation, that is the gold. And if
:03:36. > :03:42.we get there, we can have coordination between the US and
:03:43. > :03:49.Russia deciding what targets are legitimate targets, Al-Nusra
:03:50. > :03:53.targets, and then agreement on who hits those targets. I have been
:03:54. > :03:55.speaking to a senior American official about what military
:03:56. > :03:59.cooperation with the Russians might look like Andy said they already
:04:00. > :04:03.have a small team talking the Russian counterparts but there would
:04:04. > :04:06.be no shared command centre and that joint sorties between the two would
:04:07. > :04:10.be extremely unlikely because of high levels of mistrust. What would
:04:11. > :04:14.happen is a sharing of lists and potential target in Syria that each
:04:15. > :04:17.could veto but he added the Americans are conscious this could
:04:18. > :04:24.appear as if they are intervening on the side of the regime. Asad's
:04:25. > :04:30.Edfors will not be allowed to operate in areas where the Americans
:04:31. > :04:34.and Russians are working together to target Nusra but they will not be
:04:35. > :04:37.totally grounded and the US is relying on Russia to persuade him
:04:38. > :04:41.not to bomb other rebels. The agreement is a concern for many like
:04:42. > :04:47.this adviser to the Syrian opposition. I think it is very hard
:04:48. > :04:51.to see how anyone can trust the Russians. They have committed war
:04:52. > :04:55.crimes after war crime after war crime in Syria, I don't think they
:04:56. > :04:59.even have the equipment to target people effectively, they don't have
:05:00. > :05:03.smart bombs or to not a lot of them. It seems to be that it is very
:05:04. > :05:06.worrying to work with the Russians when they are not capable of
:05:07. > :05:12.targeting people. What I would say is that what we need to do before we
:05:13. > :05:19.work with the Russians is first to make clear what the consequences of
:05:20. > :05:23.violations are. Russian intervention has been a game changer but they
:05:24. > :05:28.don't want their troops dying in Syria and do want to boost their
:05:29. > :05:34.international standing. Russians believe Russia to be a natural ally
:05:35. > :05:40.of the United States, what was really problematic for the Russians
:05:41. > :05:44.in the past 25 years was to realise that Russia was not seen as a
:05:45. > :05:49.natural ally but as a problem, as boiler, Russia was called all those
:05:50. > :05:57.names. Adversary we had recently from some American politicians.
:05:58. > :06:01.Conflict and rivalry between America and Russia as defined the modern era
:06:02. > :06:06.with tensions between the two very much present. There have been many
:06:07. > :06:10.efforts before for the two countries to work together even before the end
:06:11. > :06:15.of the Cold War, there had been joint efforts to identify missing
:06:16. > :06:18.Russian soldiers in Afghanistan. There has been a cooperation between
:06:19. > :06:25.Russia and the United States in the first Gulf War in the early 90s but
:06:26. > :06:29.there has never been a level of cooperation of this kind. It is
:06:30. > :06:32.peculiar because it is at exactly the time when relations between the
:06:33. > :06:38.two powers could not have been at a lower-level. Russian backed soldiers
:06:39. > :06:42.have lined up on a key road into a leopard that has turned into a
:06:43. > :06:47.demilitarised zone. America says that if the deal turned out to just
:06:48. > :06:50.boost the Assad regime, they will pull out, but it could be this
:06:51. > :06:52.administration's last chance at securing some stability.
:06:53. > :06:55.A short while ago I spoke to Philip Gordon, who,
:06:56. > :06:58.until last year, was the President's most senior advisor on the Middle
:06:59. > :07:03.I started by asking exactly how the deal between Russia and the US
:07:04. > :07:10.There are a lot of questions about how this is going to work
:07:11. > :07:13.and obviously you can't even assume we get to that point,
:07:14. > :07:16.because to get that point you need seven days of calm and there will be
:07:17. > :07:18.parties on the ground that have an interest
:07:19. > :07:26.But the idea is if you can begin the part in which the United States
:07:27. > :07:31.and Russia work together, the reality is that the
:07:32. > :07:34.United States and Russia do have a common list of enemies,
:07:35. > :07:39.adversaries, as you mentioned, the Islamic State and the Al-Qaeda
:07:40. > :07:41.affiliated that used to be called the Nusra Front.
:07:42. > :07:46.So there may be some disputed targets they can't agree on,
:07:47. > :07:48.but there would nonetheless be some, in fact a substantial number
:07:49. > :07:52.And in Syria these days you can never have everything,
:07:53. > :07:55.but if you get something then that's better than nothing.
:07:56. > :08:00.I think that's the category this would be in.
:08:01. > :08:08.But if Russian strikes and American strikes do their job,
:08:09. > :08:10.and neutralise IS, particularly, essentially they're doing Assad's
:08:11. > :08:14.job for him because there's no sign that Assad would be out of power,
:08:15. > :08:16.there is no plan to remove Assad from power.
:08:17. > :08:23.Assad wins in the end if these strikes work?
:08:24. > :08:28.This deal is about moving from the current all-out civil war
:08:29. > :08:33.with Assad still in power, barrel bombing the opposition,
:08:34. > :08:37.refugees and all the rest, to a middle state which is at least
:08:38. > :08:43.a ceasefire, humanitarian aid, and Assad no longer doing that.
:08:44. > :08:46.It admittedly doesn't take you all the way to the desired end
:08:47. > :08:49.state which is a political transition and Assad goes.
:08:50. > :08:52.The reality is on that, Kirsty, no one has a realistic plan
:08:53. > :08:57.for getting to that state any time soon.
:08:58. > :09:00.And so it is a question of can you at least make things better,
:09:01. > :09:04.in fact, much better, while accepting the reality that
:09:05. > :09:11.for now, you don't have a plan to get Assad out of power.
:09:12. > :09:13.But do you think that President Obama should have hit
:09:14. > :09:16.Assad when he used chemical weapons on his own people?
:09:17. > :09:20.I think once we have made clear, or wants the United States had made
:09:21. > :09:22.clear that there would be consequences, including military
:09:23. > :09:24.consequences for killing nearly 2000 people with chemical weapons,
:09:25. > :09:29.that it was important to follow up on that.
:09:30. > :09:33.But I want to be clear on that because I think it's important
:09:34. > :09:36.for everyone to understand that that would not have been some magical
:09:37. > :09:47.That would have been a way, if it worked, of deterring Assad
:09:48. > :09:52.It would not have let him to fall from power, it would not have
:09:53. > :09:53.brought moderates or Democrats to power.
:09:54. > :09:56.It would have been I think an important thing to do,
:09:57. > :09:59.but it would not have resolved the situation in the way people now
:10:00. > :10:01.talk about it somehow as if the United States had
:10:02. > :10:03.conducted a weekend worth of air strikes, that would have
:10:04. > :10:08.Now we are in a situation where President Obama has got less
:10:09. > :10:13.It just looks like a rush to do something about a legacy?
:10:14. > :10:22.I think the administration has been working for some time,
:10:23. > :10:24.indeed the first version of this was last February,
:10:25. > :10:27.a ceasefire that actually did hold for some time and unfortunately,
:10:28. > :10:34.But I think it's not about, you know, getting something to not
:10:35. > :10:39.It is about stopping what is really a horrific
:10:40. > :10:44.But we might be in a situation where a new White House
:10:45. > :10:48.administration would do something completely different?
:10:49. > :10:51.That's true, and that's obviously going to be a major
:10:52. > :10:53.challenge for the next administration, either way.
:10:54. > :10:57.I mean, if this doesn't hold, obviously we are back to square one,
:10:58. > :11:07.the horrific situation that we are dealing with.
:11:08. > :11:09.But even if it somehow does, Syria is still unresolved
:11:10. > :11:12.and there are huge questions about how you get
:11:13. > :11:14.a political transition even if somehow you get a ceasefire.
:11:15. > :11:17.And being perfectly honest, nobody has any easy answers for that.
:11:18. > :11:21.I don't know anyone who thinks that there is a new administration
:11:22. > :11:24.that is going to be able to just come in and dictate the results
:11:25. > :11:27.and get rid of Assad and put moderates in power.
:11:28. > :11:29.Whether it's this administration or the next administration, working
:11:30. > :11:33.with all our partners in the region, I'm afraid that Syria and the Syria
:11:34. > :11:38.problem is going to be with us for many months and years to come.
:11:39. > :11:42.Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
:11:43. > :11:46.The Boundary Commission plans, designed to be fairer
:11:47. > :11:49.and to save money, if passed by Parliament will cut 50
:11:50. > :11:52.Parliamentary seats and redraw boundaries of many others
:11:53. > :11:57.to try to even up the number of voters in each constituency.
:11:58. > :12:00.Labour could lose half of those MPs, and are protesting, but some Labour
:12:01. > :12:03.constituencies are of the view that every cloud has a silver lining,
:12:04. > :12:06.especially if their MP is no fan of Jeremy Corbyn.
:12:07. > :12:13.Here's our political editor, Nick Watt.
:12:14. > :12:19.Jeremy Corbyn has been called on to put an end to the compulsory
:12:20. > :12:20.reselection of MPs by matching a Tory pledge that none of their MPs
:12:21. > :12:31.would lose out. MPs will have to jostle for seed
:12:32. > :12:36.when their numbers are cut from 650 down to 600 at the next general
:12:37. > :12:39.election under reforms to the UK's Parliamentary boundaries. It amounts
:12:40. > :12:42.of the biggest shake up a parliament in a generation with noble aims and
:12:43. > :12:47.a hint of no political cunning thrown in for good measure. The
:12:48. > :12:51.government says it is writing an historic wrong as it finally
:12:52. > :12:56.delivers on one of the aims of the 19th-century charters movement to
:12:57. > :13:00.create equal sized constituencies. Labour says the reforms, carried
:13:01. > :13:03.over from the last Parliament, amount to gerrymandering because
:13:04. > :13:08.they will help the Tories who say they are disadvantaged by the
:13:09. > :13:11.present boundaries. This whole accusation of gerrymandering, I
:13:12. > :13:15.simply don't buy into this premise. It simply highlights the historic
:13:16. > :13:21.injustice that has been there as far back as 1838 when the charter called
:13:22. > :13:25.for equal sized representation. The chartists, who are heroes to some
:13:26. > :13:28.people on the Labour benches, actually said at this printable and
:13:29. > :13:30.it is a Conservative government announcing it and I find it odd that
:13:31. > :13:38.the Labour Party wants to highlight the fact that we have seats that as
:13:39. > :13:42.our than in Wales, 37,000 electors, against Manchester Central, 87,000
:13:43. > :13:45.electors. When George Osborne and David Cameron dreamt up their
:13:46. > :13:48.reforms in the run-up to the 2010 election, they could never have
:13:49. > :13:55.imagined they would also hand a gift to the Labour left a mechanism for
:13:56. > :14:00.the compulsory of MPs. Leading critics of Jeremy Corbyn may find
:14:01. > :14:03.themselves in bitter battles to remain in Parliament because party
:14:04. > :14:10.rules open up a full selection process is an MP has a territorial
:14:11. > :14:13.claim of under 40% on a new constituency. I think constituents
:14:14. > :14:18.who are not part of a political party would look very poorly upon
:14:19. > :14:23.factions coming in to deselect that member parliament. That is not how
:14:24. > :14:26.we do politics, MPs go through reselection battle is, we have
:14:27. > :14:30.always add that but to target people in a sectarian way, we don't want
:14:31. > :14:35.that. One Labour MP who said something in common with Jeremy
:14:36. > :14:37.Corbyn, their nearby constituency boundaries are being radically
:14:38. > :14:40.redrawn, says the Labour leader should do more to discover to his
:14:41. > :14:46.supporters from talking about deselecting MPs. I think it's not
:14:47. > :14:50.helpful for a political party to be in the state we are in now, to be
:14:51. > :14:54.honest, and certainly it would be good if he could make it clear and I
:14:55. > :14:57.think he has said with a couple of times, that talk of deselection is
:14:58. > :15:01.unhelpful. The Conservative Minister charged with in permitting the
:15:02. > :15:04.reforms has called on the Labour leader to be more supportive of his
:15:05. > :15:09.MPs. The Prime Minister has been very clear to government MPs that no
:15:10. > :15:13.colleague will be left behind and I would say to Jeremy Corbyn, I would
:15:14. > :15:17.hope he would reflect that same principle of leadership in his own
:15:18. > :15:20.party. I hope that momentum will not ensure there was no colleague left
:15:21. > :15:22.standing on the Labour benches. In the end, the reforms may never go
:15:23. > :15:22.ahead. Labour, along with every other
:15:23. > :15:24.opposition party at Westminster, will oppose the changes
:15:25. > :15:28.when a parliamentary vote is held It would only take around half
:15:29. > :15:32.a dozen Tory MPs to vote against the reforms
:15:33. > :15:35.or around a dozen Tory MPs One member of the government told me
:15:36. > :15:43.he had pencilled in a severe bout of the flu on the day of the vote
:15:44. > :15:48.to ensure he can do his bit to kill off what he describes as David
:15:49. > :16:04.Cameron's teenage toxic legacy. MPs face an agonising wait as they
:16:05. > :16:10.prepared to lobby against the changes. And they face tricky
:16:11. > :16:12.conversations with their constituency parties.
:16:13. > :16:15.Lewis Goodall is our man wading deep into Labour's grassroots and he has
:16:16. > :16:18.been talking to local parties today to try and establish whether talk
:16:19. > :16:25.What are you hearing, Lewis?
:16:26. > :16:33.This review is devastating for Labour. Around 13% of the PLP will
:16:34. > :16:40.just disappear from electoral map overnight. That equates to around 25
:16:41. > :16:45.Labour MPs. Of those 17 are MPs who are not exactly friendly towards
:16:46. > :16:49.Jeremy Corbyn. I spoke to their local secretaries, their grassroots,
:16:50. > :16:53.and around 12 of the local parties told me they think there is no
:16:54. > :16:58.chance that under these new boundaries their incumbent MPs would
:16:59. > :17:08.be reselected. People like Tristram Hunt. I think it is fair to say that
:17:09. > :17:13.the feeling is not entirely rosy. One former shadow government
:17:14. > :17:19.minister told me tonight, suffice to say it rhymes with, I am up to. And
:17:20. > :17:23.another Labour MP told me he was sure of the leader 's office would
:17:24. > :17:28.coordinate, the pro-Jeremy Corbyn pressure group to make sure that
:17:29. > :17:30.these contests are effectively redundant.
:17:31. > :17:33.Nick Watt is here with some other political news.
:17:34. > :17:36.Nick, let's start with this story about the head of the BBC Trust
:17:37. > :17:47.Rhona Fairhead has announced she will stand down as chair of the BBC
:17:48. > :17:51.Trust next year. She had been reappointed by David Cameron to the
:17:52. > :17:57.role which will see change in the New Year when the trust is replaced
:17:58. > :18:02.by a new authority. In a sign of how Theresa May wants to do things in
:18:03. > :18:06.her own way, Rhona Fairhead was told she would to reapply for the post, a
:18:07. > :18:12.post she has recently been appointed to. A statement to the FT she said
:18:13. > :18:15.she had been strongly encouraged by Theresa May to apply for the post
:18:16. > :18:21.but after much thought had decided to go her own way. What does this
:18:22. > :18:25.tell us about Theresa May? As I understand it Theresa May was not
:18:26. > :18:30.amused by the way in which Rhona Fairhead was reappointed on the nod
:18:31. > :18:36.as one Whitehall source put it to me. What this shows is that Theresa
:18:37. > :18:38.May believes when it comes to big appointments and big decisions,
:18:39. > :18:44.there needs to be a much more rigorous process. For example she is
:18:45. > :18:48.reviewing the increased the process and on this she has listened to the
:18:49. > :18:51.Commons Culture Select Committee which raised strong concerns about
:18:52. > :18:58.the way in which David Cameron had made this reappointment. This comes
:18:59. > :19:01.just before the publication of the draft charter for the BBC and Rhona
:19:02. > :19:04.Fairhead was at the heart of those negotiations.
:19:05. > :19:06.Amoz Oz, Israel's greatest living author, has been
:19:07. > :19:08.described as "the offspring of all the contradictory urges
:19:09. > :19:10.and pains within the Israeli psyche" by another Israeli author,
:19:11. > :19:15.His latest novel, set over winter in Jerusalem
:19:16. > :19:22.It was published in Hebrew two years ago and is out in English this week.
:19:23. > :19:24.In it Oz explores the idea of treachery, asking,
:19:25. > :19:32.Oz himself has been called a traitor by some Israelis for his unswerving
:19:33. > :19:36.belief in a two state solution, and his opposition to occupation
:19:37. > :19:43.This afternoon I asked Amos Oz why he chose to reexamine
:19:44. > :19:47.the motivation of Judas Iscariot through his latest novel.
:19:48. > :19:51.I wanted people to reconsider one of the most common images
:19:52. > :19:56.in Western civilisation, the image of the traitor.
:19:57. > :20:02.When I first read this story at the age of 16,
:20:03. > :20:07.It was an ugly story and from a detective point of view,
:20:08. > :20:10.Whoever would pay Judas 30 pieces of silver,
:20:11. > :20:12.which is roughly the equivalent of ?400 today.
:20:13. > :20:19.Who on earth needed to pay Judas for kissing Jesus in
:20:20. > :20:22.order to identify him, when all Jerusalem knew Jesus,
:20:23. > :20:26.And when they came to arrest him, he didn't try to flee
:20:27. > :20:31.He was not shaving his beard, wearing a sombrero and saying,
:20:32. > :20:40.And yet the received wisdom, as you say, is that Judas is almost
:20:41. > :20:42.synonymous in some places with the Jew,
:20:43. > :20:50.Well, you see, this ugly story became the Chernobyl of Western
:20:51. > :20:58.More people paid with their blood for this bloody story
:20:59. > :21:09.Progroms, inquisitions, persecution, the Holocaust.
:21:10. > :21:12.Because in the populist mind, all of us are Judas.
:21:13. > :21:14.This is not a Nazi invention, look at the figure of Judas
:21:15. > :21:18.in Renaissance art, the ugly little man with a crooked nose at the end
:21:19. > :21:23.But now looking back where you have always stood
:21:24. > :21:25.on the position of Israel, you've always been a staunch
:21:26. > :21:39.Of course I am, and I wear this as a badge of honour on my lapel.
:21:40. > :21:42.I've been called a traitor many times in my life, many times.
:21:43. > :21:50.History is full of people, men and women, who happened to be
:21:51. > :21:53.ahead of their time and were accused of treason by some
:21:54. > :22:03.Language of course is no more crucial than it is in a conflict.
:22:04. > :22:06.Can the word Zionist be used, do you think, as a coded
:22:07. > :22:11.I can tell you exactly where I draw the line.
:22:12. > :22:15.If people call Israel nasty, I to some degree agree.
:22:16. > :22:18.If people call Israel the devil incarnate, I think they are
:22:19. > :22:29.But if they carry on saying therefore there should be no Israel,
:22:30. > :22:32.that is where anti-Zionism becomes anti-Semitism, because no one ever
:22:33. > :22:36.said after Hitler that Germany should cease to exist,
:22:37. > :22:39.or after Stalin, that there should be no Russia.
:22:40. > :22:44.But then you have this criticism of Israel and particularly
:22:45. > :22:47.from the left as well, but yet you have this idea
:22:48. > :22:50.in the Palestinian point of view, Hamas has not to be
:22:51. > :23:01.Well, there are many people in this country,
:23:02. > :23:04.in the whole of Europe, in the left, who have a special soft
:23:05. > :23:07.spot for the third World saying, well, those people have suffered
:23:08. > :23:09.a lot, you have to understand, it's only natural they
:23:10. > :23:13.When it comes to the Jews, they often say the Jews,
:23:14. > :23:15.they have suffered so much, how can they be violent
:23:16. > :23:19.Well, of course I don't like it, I think this is giving
:23:20. > :23:27.But basically, I think you don't have to be 100% pro-Israel
:23:28. > :23:34.You have to try to grasp the complexity and the ambivalence
:23:35. > :23:38.of this tragic clash between right and right.
:23:39. > :23:45.The boycott, the cultural boycott of Israel that was brought
:23:46. > :23:48.in in the UK and supported by a number of writers
:23:49. > :23:51.and artists in February, then there was one in
:23:52. > :23:53.October which said no, we don't believe in that,
:23:54. > :23:55.there were other writers that did not believe
:23:56. > :24:03.I think the boycott is hurting the wrong people.
:24:04. > :24:07.The idea that all Israelis are villains is a childish idea.
:24:08. > :24:10.Israel is the most divided, deeply divided, argumentative
:24:11. > :24:16.society, you never find two Israelis that agree with one another,
:24:17. > :24:19.it is hard to find even one who agrees with himself or herself.
:24:20. > :24:21.Everybody is ambivalent, everybody has a divided mind
:24:22. > :24:27.So boycott is wrong way because it hardens the Israeli resistance
:24:28. > :24:34.The whole world is against us, always has been against us,
:24:35. > :24:37.they don't even discriminate between one Israeli and the next.
:24:38. > :24:42.Whatever we do, they're going to hate us, so let's be
:24:43. > :24:47.So you actually believe it could be counter-productive?
:24:48. > :24:52.I think the boycott was very effective in the case
:24:53. > :24:55.of South Africa, but you have to be very stupid to think
:24:56. > :24:57.that the prescription, a medicine which works very well
:24:58. > :24:58.against cholera will also cure the plague.
:24:59. > :25:06.South Africa was bad, the Israeli occupation
:25:07. > :25:09.of the Palestinian territories is bad in a totally different way.
:25:10. > :25:22.George Osborne's passion for manufacturing was never fully
:25:23. > :25:24.realised but fitted with the ambition of
:25:25. > :25:27.successive governments - we must make more.
:25:28. > :25:29.Theresa May has talked of a new industrial strategy,
:25:30. > :25:32.a sentiment echoed at the TUC conference today.
:25:33. > :25:36.But is manufacturing the right focus for the modern British economy?
:25:37. > :25:39.Or should we be concentrating instead on our strengths,
:25:40. > :25:51.Our business editor, Helen Thomas, reports.
:25:52. > :25:54.From the workshop of the world, to the march of the makers.
:25:55. > :25:57.The UK's self-image and self-worth has always been bound
:25:58. > :26:11.At Sheffield's Advanced Manufacturing Park and Research
:26:12. > :26:14.Centre, home to companies like Rolls-Royce, that means
:26:15. > :26:23.This was once the Orgreave coalmine where striking miners clashed
:26:24. > :26:29.with police in one of the most violent confrontations of the 1980s.
:26:30. > :26:31.This is a site that straddles Britain's industrial past
:26:32. > :26:37.And under Theresa May, the country has a brand-new
:26:38. > :26:41.government department dedicated to industrial strategy.
:26:42. > :26:45.Now, in the 1960s and 1970s, that meant crunching companies
:26:46. > :26:48.in shipbuilding or the motor industry together to create
:26:49. > :26:54.It meant funnelling government money into certain manufacturing sectors
:26:55. > :27:02.So, in 2016, does industrial strategy have to involve heavy
:27:03. > :27:07.Is manufacturing as we've traditionally thought
:27:08. > :27:13.I think our preoccupation with manufacturing goes
:27:14. > :27:20.Perhaps to the days when men hunted and fished and if they were good
:27:21. > :27:23.at it, their wives and children prospered and if they didn't,
:27:24. > :27:31.And that created our idea, deeply ingrained, both of what real
:27:32. > :27:36.work is and of what gender relations in the workplace are about.
:27:37. > :27:39.We still have this kind of manufacturing fetishism that sees
:27:40. > :27:50.real work as being agriculture and mining and manufacturing.
:27:51. > :27:52.There is of course a reason why politicians tend
:27:53. > :27:56.It is wildly popular with the public.
:27:57. > :28:00.A 2012 report found that over 70% of people strongly agreed
:28:01. > :28:04.that its share of the economy needed to significantly increase.
:28:05. > :28:06.A similar number thought the government should do more
:28:07. > :28:13.Instead, it's been heading in the opposite direction.
:28:14. > :28:15.In the early 1970s, manufacturing accounted for about
:28:16. > :28:26.Services growth has outstripped that of Britain's workshops.
:28:27. > :28:31.Manufacturing jobs have dwindled, falling from 22% of total employment
:28:32. > :28:38.And importantly, the ones remaining are now more likely to require
:28:39. > :28:43.a degree or higher level qualification.
:28:44. > :28:45.That's a familiar problem in Sheffield.
:28:46. > :28:49.Barbara Jackson was working for the National Coal Board in 1984
:28:50. > :28:54.She says there's still bitterness about what has happened
:28:55. > :29:01.You've sort of swapped dirty, dangerous, high skilled,
:29:02. > :29:06.relatively well-paid jobs with good terms and conditions,
:29:07. > :29:11.and secure, permanent jobs, for these jobs
:29:12. > :29:16.I mean, people would go out and have a drink and they'd
:29:17. > :29:28.Well, you don't go out today and say, "Oh, I work
:29:29. > :29:31.for Sports Direct in their warehouse".
:29:32. > :29:35.Or, "I produce sausage rolls all day".
:29:36. > :29:37.With thousands of steel jobs under threat at Port Talbot,
:29:38. > :29:40.it would be a difficult time to break our enduring affection
:29:41. > :29:46.Still, some think that's what's needed.
:29:47. > :29:49.I think there is a real danger with regard to manufacturing and,
:29:50. > :29:52.if you like, all old-fashioned industries, that we've become used
:29:53. > :29:55.to, that we kind of consider them part of the national fabric
:29:56. > :29:57.and a vital backbone of the national economy.
:29:58. > :30:02.Actually, although we have a reasonable manufacturing sector,
:30:03. > :30:05.the service sector is really Britain's best proposition
:30:06. > :30:11.And the rules of economics would state, focus on what you're good at,
:30:12. > :30:13.don't subsidise and keep alive the things that you're
:30:14. > :30:18.Others argue that a new industrial strategy needs a whole new approach.
:30:19. > :30:22.I think what we need is to ask much more fundamental questions
:30:23. > :30:25.about what our economy is really for and what we want it to deliver.
:30:26. > :30:28.Rather than, as you say, just focusing on the question
:30:29. > :30:31.of which sectors we should be promoting that have the potential
:30:32. > :30:35.to deliver a sort of high-value added, high volume of exports.
:30:36. > :30:38.We need to be asking, what actually is needed
:30:39. > :30:40.to deliver better jobs, more viable communities
:30:41. > :30:44.That might be manufacturing, it might be much less glamorous
:30:45. > :30:45.sectors, whether it's care or construction, that
:30:46. > :30:48.have the potential to employ lots of people,
:30:49. > :30:51.but where the quality of work at the moment maybe isn't very high.
:30:52. > :30:53.So we can have one expert looking after many engineers,
:30:54. > :30:57.remotely from anywhere across the world...
:30:58. > :31:00.Back in Sheffield, cutting-edge tech has a clear aim.
:31:01. > :31:06.Rethinking our preoccupation with manufacturing may need to be
:31:07. > :31:16.part of the next vision for the economy.
:31:17. > :31:19.Cultural appropriation, the adoption of elements of one
:31:20. > :31:22.culture for use in another, has become a lightning rod
:31:23. > :31:24.in the arguments over identity politics that are beginning
:31:25. > :31:31.Now, American author Lionel Shriver, winner of the Orange Prize
:31:32. > :31:36.Speaking at the Brisbane Writers Festival, she said
:31:37. > :31:40.and that without authors writing from the perspective of other
:31:41. > :31:42.cultures we wouldn't have, for example, most
:31:43. > :31:47.Shriver so incensed writer Yassmin Abdel-Magied
:31:48. > :31:50.that she walked out, saying that the speech
:31:51. > :31:52.was a poisoned package wrapped up in arrogance
:31:53. > :32:02.Lionel Shriver joins us from New York and Yassmin Abdel-Magied
:32:03. > :32:13.Good evening, and I warn you that is a big delay on the line to line all.
:32:14. > :32:17.First of all, -- to Lionel Shriver. You dismissed the whole idea of
:32:18. > :32:26.cultural appropriation as a fad so what is your problem with it? I will
:32:27. > :32:35.speak particularly to the issue as a fiction writer. My occupation is all
:32:36. > :32:39.about trying to be empathetic with people very different from myself,
:32:40. > :32:46.not simply to tell my own story. That is memoir and if you tell
:32:47. > :32:49.fiction writers that they only have to represent their own experience
:32:50. > :32:56.and not anybody else's, they don't write fiction, they write memoir. It
:32:57. > :33:03.is the end of my occupation. I also just think the whole spirit of
:33:04. > :33:09.fiction is one of generosity and inquiry and it is a good side of
:33:10. > :33:14.ourselves and not just for writers but for readers. We want to get out
:33:15. > :33:17.of ourselves and learn about others and imaginatively project ourselves
:33:18. > :33:23.into other people's experience and I think this is in the interest of
:33:24. > :33:27.minority groups and people who feel that maybe hitherto they have been
:33:28. > :33:34.ignored. It is good not to be ignored. Yassmin, you walked out of
:33:35. > :33:40.this speech before the end. What was it that so incensed you? I think the
:33:41. > :33:47.concept of whether fiction writers can or cannot write another person's
:33:48. > :33:51.story is almost not, it wasn't the reason I walked out. The reason I
:33:52. > :33:56.walked out was because the concept of saying identity is not important
:33:57. > :33:59.or cultural appropriation is a fad was almost humiliating. It was this
:34:00. > :34:02.kind of mockery of the fact that something could be important to me
:34:03. > :34:07.and that actually the bit of identity that I value and the bits
:34:08. > :34:15.of culture that I value were to be laughed at essentially. And if I was
:34:16. > :34:19.upset or had any concerns about those things being used as a tool
:34:20. > :34:26.for a story, that was the fact that I was too sensitive. Let's be clear,
:34:27. > :34:34.in terms of tools for a story, do you believe, for example, that a
:34:35. > :34:38.German writer can write about the life of a Sudanese farmer, for
:34:39. > :34:44.example? You have an issue with people writing and developing
:34:45. > :34:48.characters that are not at your own cultural identity? Not at all. That
:34:49. > :34:53.is something that has been lost. I'm not saying people cannot write other
:34:54. > :34:57.identities. However, fiction exists in a reality, not in a vacuum, so
:34:58. > :35:04.how should people write other characters? And which voices are
:35:05. > :35:10.missing, that is what this is about. Seems to be that it is about taking
:35:11. > :35:15.hold of other people's voices and not allowing them to speak for
:35:16. > :35:26.themselves. Determining what stories about different cultural identities
:35:27. > :35:33.are the important ones. There is nothing about telling other people's
:35:34. > :35:37.stories imaginatively that keeps people from the groups you are
:35:38. > :35:43.representing in your book from also telling their own story. The more
:35:44. > :35:49.stories, the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. I feel that Yassmin is
:35:50. > :35:52.misrepresenting the whole concept of cultural appropriation which is
:35:53. > :36:01.extremely restrictive and basically says that you cannot use practices,
:36:02. > :36:04.expressions, whatever, from other people's cultures for yourself
:36:05. > :36:08.without permission and I'm not sure how we are supposed to get that
:36:09. > :36:17.permission either. It actually makes it potentially offensive to go to an
:36:18. > :36:20.ethnic restaurant. And funnily enough, you were wearing a sombrero
:36:21. > :36:25.at the end of the speech because what you were talking about at the
:36:26. > :36:29.start was the idea of students hold a tequila party did not have worn
:36:30. > :36:32.sombreros and were censored by a university by doing so. That is
:36:33. > :36:38.their cultural appropriation has been in that space, but bringing it
:36:39. > :36:44.on to fiction, I think what 7-3 is saying is that only certain kind of
:36:45. > :36:49.depictions of particular groups are acceptable -- what Yassmin is
:36:50. > :36:50.saying. And your view is that anything is acceptable that you
:36:51. > :37:12.choose to write about? What tends to happen is that the
:37:13. > :37:16.people whose voices are heard and to have the platform tend to write
:37:17. > :37:22.similar stories about demographics. As a young Muslim Woodman, for
:37:23. > :37:27.example, the types of stories that exist about me are quite often, seen
:37:28. > :37:33.from the outside, exotic sized and steeped in history that I'm don't
:37:34. > :37:38.have much control over -- as a Muslim woman. Those stories exist in
:37:39. > :37:46.a reality that effect... They only exist in fiction. That is under the
:37:47. > :37:54.own experience someone has in the demographic. -- sometimes. When it
:37:55. > :37:58.comes to wearing the sombrero, if that offensive in itself? What is
:37:59. > :38:04.the intent? Is it to make mockery of something somebody else sees as
:38:05. > :38:08.important and sacred? I don't think mockery is important. I don't think
:38:09. > :38:12.we should go out and want to humiliate people, who say, this is
:38:13. > :38:16.important to me, rather let's have a conversation about why this is
:38:17. > :38:24.important. Were you intent on mockery when you were wearing the
:38:25. > :38:30.sombrero at the end of your speech? I was attempting to have a sense of
:38:31. > :38:33.humour. I'm sorry that Yassmin took it that way, and she couldn't have
:38:34. > :38:38.been offended because she walked out in the middle and did not see me put
:38:39. > :38:41.on the hat. It was a bit of theatricality, for fun. And it was
:38:42. > :38:46.illustrating the last line of the speech was that we fiction writers
:38:47. > :38:51.need to be allowed to wear many hats, including a sombrero, and I
:38:52. > :38:58.put the hat on and took the cue and a afterwards. There was no element
:38:59. > :39:05.of mockery in my speech -- the Q But when you take this concept too
:39:06. > :39:09.far, it begins to be absurd. There was a yoga teacher in Canada who was
:39:10. > :39:15.shamed out of teaching her yoga class because it comes from India
:39:16. > :39:27.and she tried to rename the class mind. She. I find this stuff funny.
:39:28. > :39:29.-- mindful stretching. Thank you both very much indeed.
:39:30. > :39:33.We leave you with Josh Gibson, who we hear is alive and well,
:39:34. > :39:36.but who claims online that he was almost killed in a car
:39:37. > :39:40.He apparently put photographs of the aftermath on Facebook,
:39:41. > :39:43.whereapon, he says, he was subjected to the company's penchant for auto
:39:44. > :39:45.creating jaunty video slideshows.