:00:07. > :00:07.The unravelling of a prime-ministerial legacy,
:00:08. > :00:09.less than three months after he's gone.
:00:10. > :00:12.It's about time people just stopped dissing him all the time,
:00:13. > :00:15.and actually see him for what he has done for my party and,
:00:16. > :00:28.Did Cameron's party always disliked what he did, or does every new
:00:29. > :00:32.leader have to dump the narrative of the last one? We ask one of his
:00:33. > :00:34.earlier supporters, Nicholas Soames. Also tonight in Strasbourg,
:00:35. > :00:36.Europe asks how it can shape its future without us
:00:37. > :00:38.to help them along. The man charged by Parliament with
:00:39. > :00:42.negotiating Brexit has this to say. Stop the politics of division,
:00:43. > :00:45.and seize this opportunity not to kill Europe, as some of you want,
:00:46. > :00:48.but to reinvent Europe. The former Prime Minister
:00:49. > :00:57.of Finland thinks Brexit And, the EU migrants
:00:58. > :01:00.in Britain facing deportation TRANSLATION: If you're working,
:01:01. > :01:05.it's not a problem, but if you can't find work to support yourself,
:01:06. > :01:08.then it's hard. You won't have anywhere to sleep,
:01:09. > :01:10.because if you're not paid, "History will be kind to me",
:01:11. > :01:26.Winston Churchill once said, Every living Prime Minister has
:01:27. > :01:30.to watch as their legacy For some though, it
:01:31. > :01:35.comes rather quickly. Our former Prime Minister, David
:01:36. > :01:38.Cameron, relinquished all the final trappings of power this week,
:01:39. > :01:41.as he stepped down as an MP. Barely had he left the scene than
:01:42. > :01:44.a new narrative began to emerge. One where he faces criticism
:01:45. > :01:46.for his intervention in Libya in 2011, where his education
:01:47. > :01:50.policies are turned upside down, where austerity becomes a word
:01:51. > :01:54.of a bygone age and where we're no There seems to be little love
:01:55. > :01:58.lost between Theresa May and David Cameron,
:01:59. > :02:00.and every leader wants But there is a nakedness to leaving
:02:01. > :02:18.office, a vulnerability exposed Newsnight has learned that senior
:02:19. > :02:19.advisers to Theresa May think that the differentiation strategy from
:02:20. > :02:29.David Cameron has gone too far. It was bloodless, but it was a
:02:30. > :02:33.purge. Theresa May has not yet reached her first 100 days in
:02:34. > :02:36.office, at already our new leader has gone out of her way to hairbrush
:02:37. > :02:48.David Cameron from history. -- to airbursh. Theresa May is
:02:49. > :02:51.absolutely right saying I am my own woman, this is the person that I am.
:02:52. > :02:55.She's absolutely right to do that. She has to put a bit of blue water
:02:56. > :02:59.between herself and the previous administration. It may be the most
:03:00. > :03:03.rapid transfer of power in recent history, but the Prime Minister had
:03:04. > :03:07.clearly been thinking long and hard about how she would differentiate
:03:08. > :03:13.herself from David Cameron. Out went most of the eater Tony ands, the
:03:14. > :03:20.northern powerhouse, and in came Grammar schools. -- out went most of
:03:21. > :03:24.the Etonians. She is definitely trying to be different to David
:03:25. > :03:28.Cameron. She knows that Cameron at the start talks about education and
:03:29. > :03:33.progress, but he didn't talk about selection, he took a stand against
:03:34. > :03:39.selection. She has chosen to go in favour of selection. It can't but be
:03:40. > :03:44.intentional. It has upset some of Cameron's most ardent supporters.
:03:45. > :03:49.We've got to stop trashing David Cameron. And I'm not a Cameroon. I
:03:50. > :03:55.didn't go to any parties at Chequers. I'm not part of his in a
:03:56. > :03:59.circle. I'm just grateful for everything he's done for my party at
:04:00. > :04:03.my country. I thought he was an outstanding Prime Minister and
:04:04. > :04:09.fabulous leader of my party. It's about time people stopped dissing
:04:10. > :04:15.him and saw him for what he has done for our country. Some of his allies
:04:16. > :04:23.are biding their time before deciding when to strike back.
:04:24. > :04:30.Newsnight understands that one of his friends shouted out viva Cameron
:04:31. > :04:33.when she fired the shot and sacked him.
:04:34. > :04:40.Perhaps some of the elements of their differentiation strategy have
:04:41. > :04:44.gone too far. An old friend of the former Prime Minister's, who is
:04:45. > :04:47.helping him with his memoirs, wings that the differences are being
:04:48. > :04:50.exaggerated. We're right to think about those differences and comment
:04:51. > :04:54.on them, but we may then be missing something which is also important,
:04:55. > :05:02.which is similarities about one centrist, modernising Conservative
:05:03. > :05:07.Prime Minister giving way to another centrist modernising Conservative
:05:08. > :05:13.Prime Minister. He thinks that Theresa May should be given support
:05:14. > :05:19.for consistency for her support for selection. I was director of policy
:05:20. > :05:25.when she was Shadow Secretary of State for Education and William
:05:26. > :05:28.Hague was the leader of the Conservative Party and this was the
:05:29. > :05:31.agenda that she developed then. She has had to wait all this time
:05:32. > :05:35.diplomat it. If she had been part of the Cameron in a government, as it
:05:36. > :05:39.were, she would probably have done some of this by now. So because of
:05:40. > :05:46.being slightly outside it whilst still being a moderniser, she has
:05:47. > :05:48.got a change agenda but inside that sort of Cameron worldview. I think
:05:49. > :05:54.that's probably quite a good balance. One veteran Tory says we
:05:55. > :05:58.should remember that Theresa May has taken over in wholly different
:05:59. > :06:03.circumstances to the last two Prime Minister 's who entered number ten
:06:04. > :06:07.without an election. There was an elements of failure both with Tony
:06:08. > :06:12.Blair and Mrs Thatcher that gave a chance to a new leader and they
:06:13. > :06:16.could take on something different. David Cameron, in my mind, that
:06:17. > :06:19.wasn't really the case. Of course, the referendum turned out to be an
:06:20. > :06:23.Arab and a catastrophic one and it has cost him. But the rest of the
:06:24. > :06:28.policy was going in a way where he could say made some successes. The
:06:29. > :06:32.economy has picked up. He was points ahead in the opinion polls and all
:06:33. > :06:36.that. So it wasn't quite the same circumstances. David Cameron is
:06:37. > :06:43.living up to his commitment to go dark, but he will be back. With
:06:44. > :06:46.Churchill's dictum about the importance of recording the first
:06:47. > :06:49.draft of history, he is busy scribbling away at his memoirs. We
:06:50. > :06:53.will have more from Nick Watt later. But now Sir Nicholas Soames,
:06:54. > :06:56.one of David Camerons earliest parliamentary supporters,
:06:57. > :07:01.joins me now. I don't think I've ever done this
:07:02. > :07:04.before but we don't actually know where you stand on his legacy.
:07:05. > :07:08.You were booked on the basis that we agreed to "suck it and see"!
:07:09. > :07:16.Why don't we start by getting a sense, do you think this is the
:07:17. > :07:21.dismantling of Cameron's policy? I don't. This is a new Prime Minister.
:07:22. > :07:30.David Cameron has left, to my sadness, is under 58 and still with
:07:31. > :07:34.a lot more to give, but he has decided to go and he has gone and
:07:35. > :07:37.the party has moved quickly to elect a new Prime Minister, and she has
:07:38. > :07:43.every right to have who she wants in our cabinet, who she wants in what
:07:44. > :07:46.job, and she is part of the very first Cameron government and I think
:07:47. > :07:52.she is building on it. A complete coincidence that he acknowledges his
:07:53. > :07:55.resignation ten minutes before Justine Greening gets up to stand on
:07:56. > :08:01.grammar schools, or that she made a speech and very first words are
:08:02. > :08:03.about elitism being rejected, about austerity being rejected? About all
:08:04. > :08:09.those things we've heard so much about over the past six years? I'm
:08:10. > :08:12.the wrong person to get on this because I don't know anything about
:08:13. > :08:16.the ins and outs, I'm not being naive about it but I just don't
:08:17. > :08:21.know. I believe that David Cameron was right to resign, actually,
:08:22. > :08:24.because I think he does feel that every time he chooses to say
:08:25. > :08:29.something, and he will want to say stuff as a member of Parliament, he
:08:30. > :08:33.will be put, as Ted Heath was, in a very ill judged time that he was out
:08:34. > :08:40.of office. So I think he was right to do that. I think the situation
:08:41. > :08:43.is, as Nick Watt said in his piece, the situation has completely
:08:44. > :08:50.changed. We have this extraordinary challenge of Brexit. The very harsh
:08:51. > :08:55.austerity... But even her own advisers think that she's gone too
:08:56. > :08:59.far. In terms of differentiation, if you pick five things in the last
:09:00. > :09:02.week, and I'm not even counting the Libya report which obviously has
:09:03. > :09:06.come independently, whether it is education, whether it is this bores
:09:07. > :09:11.on Hinkley Point, which we will know about soon, whether it is HS two,
:09:12. > :09:15.the relations with the Chinese, the grammar schools, all the rest of it,
:09:16. > :09:20.you don't have to look very far to see all the Cameron thinks she is an
:09:21. > :09:23.doing. I don't see it as a big issue. I think Hinkley Point is one
:09:24. > :09:27.of the most expensive and extreme the controversial projects. I think
:09:28. > :09:31.any incoming Prime Minister would want to have a very careful look at
:09:32. > :09:36.it. The Rona Fairhead thing, I don't know what the issues are there, but
:09:37. > :09:40.she's totally entitled to do this. It is a new administration. But it
:09:41. > :09:46.is an administration that is quite clearly going to build on what is on
:09:47. > :09:50.gunnery and others would like to see and I think it will go further than
:09:51. > :09:54.David was able to go. So let's take it one further, you think she is in
:09:55. > :09:59.the right direction? If these things get under, even though you were a
:10:00. > :10:03.firm supporter of Cameron's, you wouldn't get quite upset? I'm not
:10:04. > :10:07.upset, but politics is a harsh, rough and quite bloody business.
:10:08. > :10:10.Theresa May is the Prime Minister and she takes a certain view and she
:10:11. > :10:14.is entitled to take her Administration in the way she sees
:10:15. > :10:18.fit. But she is building on the Cameron inheritance. What does the
:10:19. > :10:21.Tory party do? Does the Tory party say yes, we're all for academies,
:10:22. > :10:27.yes we are all for grammar schools... Whether you're for
:10:28. > :10:33.grammar schools, it is not to say that you're not for academies. I'm
:10:34. > :10:38.absolutely pro-anything that is going to enhance the life chances of
:10:39. > :10:44.a lot of people who really are not getting a fair crack of the whip. If
:10:45. > :10:47.you choose to put a grammar school in a post-industrial town where
:10:48. > :10:52.there are no good schools, I think that is a wonderful thing to do. A
:10:53. > :10:56.wonderful thing to do. So I think she's going to press on. And I think
:10:57. > :11:02.she has the space and the opportunity, in a way... And you
:11:03. > :11:07.think she will succeed with Brexit? Well, I think Brexit is a very
:11:08. > :11:11.difficult, complex matter which you're going to discuss with the
:11:12. > :11:15.former Prime Minister of Finland. It's either going to go smoothly for
:11:16. > :11:20.us, which I don't think it will, or it will be a very bitter and
:11:21. > :11:24.protracted affair. And I'm afraid it will be a very bitter and protracted
:11:25. > :11:27.affair and could last a long time. I'm sure the Prime Minister is very
:11:28. > :11:31.aware but the world is not going to wait for Britain to make its mind
:11:32. > :11:32.up. We need to get on with this. Sir Nicholas Soames, thank you very
:11:33. > :11:34.much. Joining me now, the Times Columnist
:11:35. > :11:43.Tim Montgomerie, and Polly Toynbee, Nice to have you both here. You
:11:44. > :11:48.heard from Sir Nicholas a sense that it is business as usual and this is
:11:49. > :11:54.just what you do. Tim, are you hearing a proper, new territory with
:11:55. > :11:57.Theresa May now? A differentiation strategy? Look, on the 23rd of June
:11:58. > :12:03.I think Britain just didn't -- didn't just vote for Brexit, there
:12:04. > :12:07.were a huge of this affected poorer Britons, who in their vote were
:12:08. > :12:14.crying out for change. With Theresa May at the new Prime Minister, seeds
:12:15. > :12:17.-- if she didn't acknowledge that as well as wanting to leave the
:12:18. > :12:22.European Union there was a call for a different time politics, she would
:12:23. > :12:27.be failing... David Cameron won the general election on his policies a
:12:28. > :12:31.year ago. He won with 36% of the vote against a pretty weak Labour
:12:32. > :12:36.leader in Ed Miliband. What Brexit, the referendum, a bigger referendum
:12:37. > :12:42.of what people thought of Britain. I think if David Cameron had been in
:12:43. > :12:46.the position that Theresa May was in now, he would be recalibrating
:12:47. > :12:49.policy as well. What is remarkable is that there is much more
:12:50. > :12:52.continuity between Theresa May and David Cameron and we are inevitably
:12:53. > :12:58.focusing on the differences. I agree with Tim, there you go! I think what
:12:59. > :13:01.we're going to see is Nermark double amount of continuity. What she's
:13:02. > :13:06.done is get rid of his chums and people she doesn't like and brought
:13:07. > :13:09.in her own chums, the way that prime ministers do. What really matters in
:13:10. > :13:15.the end is what she does about the economy. We have been through a
:13:16. > :13:18.government where George Osborne and Cameron were committed to reducing
:13:19. > :13:22.the size of the state in Britain to about the same size as the American
:13:23. > :13:28.state, down to 35%. They said they would get it down today, not an
:13:29. > :13:32.emergency measure, but that was how it was going to stay. As a result,
:13:33. > :13:38.public services have been absolutely cut-throat across-the-board, in
:13:39. > :13:45.those Schalke, the NHS and is a lot of fields. -- cut right across the
:13:46. > :13:49.board in the NHS and those areas. Is she a greater evil or a lesser evil?
:13:50. > :13:51.You were no fan of Cameron. I think they're very much on the same track.
:13:52. > :14:06.They are considerably to the right. Cameron and Osborne had a much more
:14:07. > :14:10.relaxed the near. They were much harder than Mrs Thatcher. Their cuts
:14:11. > :14:15.have been much more profound than anything that Margaret Thatcher
:14:16. > :14:20.thought she could begin to do. I think that will continue. That's
:14:21. > :14:25.nonsense. It's too early to judge where Theresa May is going to go on
:14:26. > :14:30.economic policy. One of the most interesting interventions we have
:14:31. > :14:34.had since Brexit was from the Thatcherite minister Sajid Javid,
:14:35. > :14:40.who said we should be boring 20 billion extra a year to put into
:14:41. > :14:45.infrastructure and housing, to make the northern powerhouse real, a
:14:46. > :14:51.central project of George Osborne. That hasn't gone. What has happened,
:14:52. > :14:55.which is where Emily is guilty of a bit of exaggeration, all that has
:14:56. > :15:00.happened was that Theresa May has said that the northern powerhouse
:15:01. > :15:03.was too focused on Manchester. But she has taken these phrases that we
:15:04. > :15:08.have been fed on for the last few years... The first thing she said
:15:09. > :15:14.was, austerity will be looked at again. The northern powerhouse is
:15:15. > :15:20.not about the North, it is about all the country. That is
:15:21. > :15:24.differentiation. It isn't. If the government of Britain didn't respond
:15:25. > :15:29.to one of the most historic vote in our nation's history and recalibrate
:15:30. > :15:35.policy, it would be wrong. So does that mean that all the people who
:15:36. > :15:41.voted for David Cameron, voted him into power in 2015, didn't like his
:15:42. > :15:47.policies? I don't think so. Who knows? It's always a choice. People
:15:48. > :15:52.go for what they think is the most competent person. The idea there is
:15:53. > :15:57.going to be a great shift... We had a very good speech from her on the
:15:58. > :16:01.threshold of number ten talking about the poor, talking about
:16:02. > :16:05.opportunity. Mac but we have been there before. It is exactly what
:16:06. > :16:10.David Cameron did in the run-up to taking power. The problem is that
:16:11. > :16:14.she hasn't even tested. She's arrived without any kind of election
:16:15. > :16:19.or selection. She hasn't been grilled by the likes of you, so that
:16:20. > :16:24.when she comes up with a policy like grammar schools, she hasn't had the
:16:25. > :16:29.chance to test it out. I think she's making mistake after mistake. The
:16:30. > :16:36.grammar schools one is going to be a big embarrassment, because there are
:16:37. > :16:40.a lot of Conservatives who know that most people get the School of their
:16:41. > :16:47.choice. After grammar schools, 80% will not. What came on Monday was
:16:48. > :16:53.timed to perfection. That wasn't just accident. Who knows? David
:16:54. > :16:59.Cameron is going through emotional turmoil, I imagine. He won a general
:17:00. > :17:06.election a year ago. He has been humbled. He is a sensible enough
:17:07. > :17:11.politician to know that his successor needs to have her own
:17:12. > :17:17.agenda. I think what we are seeing is a review of policy that is
:17:18. > :17:21.necessary, but on some of the key fundamentals, getting our deficit
:17:22. > :17:27.under control, passing tax cuts to the low paid, ensuring the education
:17:28. > :17:36.system serves the disadvantaged, she is more of a camera and politician
:17:37. > :17:40.than a Thatcherite one. -- a Cameron politician. This is the one thing
:17:41. > :17:45.that I worry about with Theresa May. The defining Wallasey she was
:17:46. > :17:50.associated with was control of immigration, but when she had the
:17:51. > :17:56.opportunity to deliver the means of controlling immigration by leaving
:17:57. > :17:59.the EU, she hesitated. She has every reason to feel resentment against
:18:00. > :18:05.David Cameron. The legacy he's left her is appalling. The Brexit
:18:06. > :18:11.conundrum is dreadful and will overwhelm her government. At the
:18:12. > :18:15.same time as the state of the NHS, and a number of other problems on
:18:16. > :18:21.her plate. He really has left her with some pretty bad stuff, and I
:18:22. > :18:26.wouldn't be surprised if she was grinding her teeth. Nick Watt has
:18:27. > :18:30.slipped back into the hot seat. What will happen with this? Laura
:18:31. > :18:38.Kuenssberg, political editor of the BBC, is reporting that a source is
:18:39. > :18:44.saying that both the Chinese and US governments will approve the
:18:45. > :18:49.Hinckley power deal, which should be improved tomorrow. Sources close to
:18:50. > :18:51.the deal are saying that the Chinese are unlikely to accept conditions
:18:52. > :18:57.unless they get a guarantee over their hope that they will have the
:18:58. > :19:02.right to be the sole builder of that second nuclear power plant at
:19:03. > :19:06.Bradwell. Theresa May called a halt to the Hinkley C points decision,
:19:07. > :19:10.which was one of the first things she did as Prime Minister. If she
:19:11. > :19:16.had stopped it, that would have left you a crisis with Britain's
:19:17. > :19:22.relations with China. But she couldn't just leave it how it was.
:19:23. > :19:28.So she is accept in it with some conditions. Talking about
:19:29. > :19:32.continuity, you mentioned the men was coming out with Lord Finkelstein
:19:33. > :19:38.on David Cameron. What will that bring? Lord Finkelstein is a
:19:39. > :19:41.familiar and friendly face in the Newsnight Village, and will be
:19:42. > :19:47.helping David Cameron with his memoirs. David Cameron takes pride
:19:48. > :19:52.in his first from Oxford, so why would he need help with the writing?
:19:53. > :19:57.I think he realises it will be a mammoth task, so why not have one of
:19:58. > :20:01.the UK's finest political writers helping out? David Cameron has
:20:02. > :20:09.clearly been thinking about these memoirs for some time. He hasn't
:20:10. > :20:14.done a Tony Benn notepad under the table in the Cabinet room, but
:20:15. > :20:18.clearly he has been doing some work on these memoirs. Thank you.
:20:19. > :20:21.When the 27 EU countries gather for their first post-Brexit vote
:20:22. > :20:23.summit this weekend, it will be tempting
:20:24. > :20:26.Indeed, it's what the European Commission President
:20:27. > :20:29.Jean Claude Juncker struck a slightly elegiaic note today,
:20:30. > :20:32.as he acknowledged in his State of the Union Address that Brexit
:20:33. > :20:34.was a blow for the Union, and pressed for more integration
:20:35. > :20:39.TRANSLATION: The European Union is currently not in top condition.
:20:40. > :20:42.The number of areas where we come together, spontaneously
:20:43. > :20:47.The number of areas where we collaborate in
:20:48. > :20:52.Too often, interests that are exclusively
:20:53. > :20:58.But how much solidarity actually exists within the bloc?
:20:59. > :21:01.Divisions are opening up between those who want Britain to be
:21:02. > :21:03.treated harshly and those prepared to give a bit of leeway.
:21:04. > :21:06.The same divisions perhaps reveal where our European neighbours
:21:07. > :21:10.themselves stand on that critical issue of freedom of movement.
:21:11. > :21:19.When thinking about what the rest of the EU wants from us,
:21:20. > :21:29.We will be dealing with 27 states, each with different priorities.
:21:30. > :21:32.So what can we say about what they will want?
:21:33. > :21:36.Well, first, we know Ireland is going to be very important.
:21:37. > :21:39.It's an EU member so exposed to us that it's desperate
:21:40. > :21:45.Lots of our other close trading partners, like Germany,
:21:46. > :21:48.are also likely to want to minimise the disruption of Brexit.
:21:49. > :21:51.Donald Tusk, the European Council President, is also a pragmatist.
:21:52. > :21:55.But Francois Hollande of France is in another camp.
:21:56. > :21:58.We have neighbours who'd quite like to give us a kicking
:21:59. > :22:01.Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European
:22:02. > :22:06.But there are other blocs with their own Brexit agendas.
:22:07. > :22:10.The Baltics and Finland, understandably, see security
:22:11. > :22:14.We are one of Europe's big military powers,
:22:15. > :22:18.and hardline on Moscow, so defence co-operation might become
:22:19. > :22:24.We might also become a pawn in internal EU arguments.
:22:25. > :22:29.For example, the southern states, often slightly misleadingly called
:22:30. > :22:33.the "Club Med" countries, are lobbying for a change
:22:34. > :22:41.Next month, Matteo Renzi in Italy faces a constitutional referendum.
:22:42. > :22:46.Lithuania is going to hold a general election.
:22:47. > :22:49.Then, later this year, Romania will hold one too.
:22:50. > :22:55.Francois Hollande looks likely to lose a forthcoming French
:22:56. > :23:03.Angela Merkel faces a general election by next autumn.
:23:04. > :23:08.So it's a negotiation with 27 countries, some of whom have local
:23:09. > :23:11.fixations, some of whom may change leaders midway,
:23:12. > :23:14.and may in fact win power on pledges about Brexit.
:23:15. > :23:27.what shape any European deal will take.
:23:28. > :23:29.Joining me here in the studio is Alexander Stubb, the former
:23:30. > :23:34.And in Strasbourg, where Mr Juncker made his speech today,
:23:35. > :23:38.is the Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan.
:23:39. > :23:44.Thank you both very much indeed for being with us. It is interesting.
:23:45. > :23:47.Juncker has insisted this is not going to be a summit about Brexit.
:23:48. > :23:52.Are they really not going to talk about it?
:23:53. > :23:58.Of course they will. Usually when you say you are not talking about
:23:59. > :24:04.something, it is what you are going to talk about. Then there will be a
:24:05. > :24:08.process for the future of Europe, because I think Brexit is a tough
:24:09. > :24:12.lesson to learn for all European leaders, and they are trying to suss
:24:13. > :24:20.out what happened. How long do you think Brexit will take? It will be a
:24:21. > :24:24.long process. Five to ten years. The unravelling of the British Empire
:24:25. > :24:31.took a long time. To try to take yourself out of these you when you
:24:32. > :24:35.are talking of over 100,000 pages of secondary legislation, it does not
:24:36. > :24:42.happen fast. I am in London for a week to try to figure out if Brexit
:24:43. > :24:46.means Brexit, what does Brexit mean? I do think anybody knows. Five to
:24:47. > :24:52.ten years is not something that happens briefly after Christmas. It
:24:53. > :24:57.is a process after an event. When we get back Southern tree, that is when
:24:58. > :25:01.we begin to diversion. When we leave, all of our regulations are
:25:02. > :25:07.still in place. Then we can choose which ones we want to keep and which
:25:08. > :25:11.ones we don't. What we want is the tightest relationship with our
:25:12. > :25:15.European friends in terms of security cooperation, military
:25:16. > :25:20.alliance, open markets, compatible with being a fully sovereign country
:25:21. > :25:28.who makes its own laws, like Canada and the US. But you would not
:25:29. > :25:33.disagree with that time frame? Brexit as a legal fact will come
:25:34. > :25:37.into effect when British laws are against supreme in our own
:25:38. > :25:43.territory. There is a timescale there. I think everybody accepts, as
:25:44. > :25:51.Geva hushed output yesterday, we could not have another election.
:25:52. > :25:57.Brexit will come into effect by 2019, at the latest. We still have
:25:58. > :26:01.quite a lot of assimilated EU acts, and that is when we will decide
:26:02. > :26:08.which ones to keep. We can do that with the consent and the approval of
:26:09. > :26:11.our European friends. We want to avoid acting unilaterally or
:26:12. > :26:16.precipitously. That is exactly the word. There are many within that
:26:17. > :26:19.block watching to see what happens with freedom of movement who don't
:26:20. > :26:25.really want it any more themselves. That is one of the difficult issues.
:26:26. > :26:31.One of the big endgames is going to be the internal market. Second,
:26:32. > :26:37.linked to that, the freedom of movement. And third, how much that
:26:38. > :26:42.will cost. Does freedom of movement have to break? It is one of the
:26:43. > :26:49.fundamental freedoms of the EU. The UK was one of the only countries to
:26:50. > :26:55.go for free -- true freedom of movement in 2004. A lot of others
:26:56. > :27:00.went for a transitional period. It is a Catch-22 situation for other EU
:27:01. > :27:06.leaders. Ritz did their part, then suffered through Brexit. If freedom
:27:07. > :27:10.of movement will not disappear, we have to acknowledge that we will not
:27:11. > :27:15.be part of the single market, and that all the ministers coming up
:27:16. > :27:20.with various interpretations are at odds with each other, let alone the
:27:21. > :27:29.rest of the EU. That was to you, Dan. I'm sorry, I cannot see the
:27:30. > :27:33.studio! We are going to have access to the single market. Virtually the
:27:34. > :27:38.whole world has access to the single market. If you look at the back of a
:27:39. > :27:44.smartphone, it says, designed in California, made in China. Neither
:27:45. > :27:50.of those states have any agreement with the EU. Whether we can trade is
:27:51. > :27:54.not the issue, it is whether we are subject to the same regime. There
:27:55. > :27:59.may be some specific businesses and sectors where it suits them to be
:28:00. > :28:04.part of the same regime, but for the vast majority, it may be better to
:28:05. > :28:10.not apply those rules to our domestic commerce and industry. Is
:28:11. > :28:14.it not a problem that, listening to conversations between David Davis
:28:15. > :28:20.and Theresa May, you see that no one really understands the contours of
:28:21. > :28:24.what Brexit is. Different comments about the single market over ten
:28:25. > :28:29.each other, and junior ministers don't seem to have a clue. It is
:28:30. > :28:33.pretty clear that we will be outside the common external tariff. The
:28:34. > :28:39.advantage of Brexit is we will be able to have free trade agreements
:28:40. > :28:44.with China and India and others. It is in our interests for the EU to be
:28:45. > :28:50.prosperous. Alexander Stubb, do you want Europe to give us concessions?
:28:51. > :28:57.Is it in their interest to do this nicely? I think Brexit is a blues -
:28:58. > :29:03.lose proposition, unfortunately. I think it is in the interests of all
:29:04. > :29:07.of us to make this divorce as amicable as possible. We are going
:29:08. > :29:12.to have similar rules and regulations. This is the future.
:29:13. > :29:17.Look at technological advancement. My kids are going to be printing
:29:18. > :29:23.their sneakers on 3-D printers. There will not be trade rules in
:29:24. > :29:27.between. There is going to be a very long, cumbersome and difficult
:29:28. > :29:29.process for the EU, which we will talk about for the next ten years.
:29:30. > :29:33.Thank you very much indeed. A paediatric pathologist
:29:34. > :29:35.in Northern Ireland has resigned over interventions
:29:36. > :29:37.by Northern Ireland's Attorney General on abortion laws surrounding
:29:38. > :29:43.fatal foetal abnormality. Dr Caroline Gannon investigated
:29:44. > :29:48.the deaths of babies, including She said the final straw was having
:29:49. > :29:54.to advise a couple to use a picnic cooler bag to return their baby's
:29:55. > :30:01.remains to Northern Ireland following an abortion
:30:02. > :30:04.they were made to have in England. The 1967 Abortion Act,
:30:05. > :30:06.which established legal abortion, has never applied in Northern
:30:07. > :30:09.Ireland. Abortion is only allowed
:30:10. > :30:12.in Northern Ireland in cases Fatal foetal abnormalities,
:30:13. > :30:16.rape and incest are not circumstances in which abortions can
:30:17. > :30:21.be performed legally. Last year, a High court judge ruled
:30:22. > :30:25.the ban on terminations in instances of sexual crime or fatal foetal
:30:26. > :30:27.abnormalities were incompatable But Attorney General John Larkin
:30:28. > :30:36.appealed against that ruling. Dr Gannon said her position had
:30:37. > :30:38.been made untenable, and that the interventions by Mr
:30:39. > :30:45.Larkin had proved a tipping point. Joining us now from Belfast
:30:46. > :30:47.is Caroline Gannon, former paedatric pathologist who
:30:48. > :30:56.has just resigned from her job. We appreciate you joining us. Can
:30:57. > :31:01.you try and explain a little better than I did the emotional trigger
:31:02. > :31:06.which really lead to you feeling you had to step down? I think you
:31:07. > :31:10.explained it very well. It has become increasingly difficult over
:31:11. > :31:15.the last 18 months. It's not just the termination ruling, it is also
:31:16. > :31:19.the stillbirth ruling, that we have a situation here where stillbirth
:31:20. > :31:22.can be reported to the coroner and an autopsy carried out by Kara
:31:23. > :31:34.O'Neill legislation without any input from the parents. -- coronial
:31:35. > :31:38.the deflation. They have no say when they get their baby's body back, for
:31:39. > :31:42.example. It's not just the termination ruling, it is also the
:31:43. > :31:49.stillbirth ruling. Over the last 18 months I have found that I have
:31:50. > :31:53.become increasingly, mice by these rulings, which has had a big impact
:31:54. > :31:58.on the work I do for families. Just explain to us the couple who were
:31:59. > :32:04.not allowed to have their dangerously ill foetus terminated in
:32:05. > :32:12.Ireland, what happened there? They had received a diagnosis of fatal
:32:13. > :32:16.faecal abnormalities and they wanted a termination of pregnancy and they
:32:17. > :32:21.had to go to England for that. This was very much a wanted baby, a
:32:22. > :32:27.planned baby, and they were very distressed that this would go ahead.
:32:28. > :32:34.This was part of their family, this was their baby and they didn't want
:32:35. > :32:40.to leave him in Northern Ireland. It was only through the sheer luck that
:32:41. > :32:43.they were speaking to a very experienced midwife who knew me
:32:44. > :32:48.personally and she put them in touch with me so I could give them
:32:49. > :32:52.information about how best to bring the body home and how to preserve
:32:53. > :32:56.the tissue though that we could get all the information they would need.
:32:57. > :33:00.I'm sure there are other families out there who did not access that
:33:01. > :33:05.information and had to leave their baby behind in England. Just give us
:33:06. > :33:09.a sense, do you feel, and you weren't worried closely with this,
:33:10. > :33:10.that abortion laws have become more rigorous in Northern Ireland in
:33:11. > :33:17.recent years? Very much so. I started working in
:33:18. > :33:21.Northern Ireland as a consultant in 2003 and bank then we did get some
:33:22. > :33:29.babies coming into our department where the families had had an
:33:30. > :33:33.induction of labour because of a lethal abnormality. That seemed to
:33:34. > :33:40.stop completely in about 2008. So we do seem to be becoming more strict
:33:41. > :33:43.over the rules here and I do feel it is interfering with family life
:33:44. > :33:47.quite significantly. I think parents should have the right to make a
:33:48. > :33:53.decision about their babies and they have been denied that, both in
:33:54. > :33:56.stillbirths and in babies where they opt to end the pregnancy early.
:33:57. > :34:03.There was this ruling by a High Court judge in Belfast that some of
:34:04. > :34:07.the parts of the law contravenes international human rights. Why
:34:08. > :34:11.didn't that go through? There is no will install mod for that to go
:34:12. > :34:15.through. There seems to be very little public debate about the
:34:16. > :34:19.impact this is having on families at an individual family level. The
:34:20. > :34:22.impression I'm getting from the media is that this is being
:34:23. > :34:27.portrayed as an all or nothing situation, that either no
:34:28. > :34:32.terminations can be carried out or if we say yes to terminations for
:34:33. > :34:35.lethal abnormalities, that opens the door to every other type of
:34:36. > :34:41.termination of pregnancy. We're talking about termination of
:34:42. > :34:45.pregnancy in a very specific circumstance, where the baby has an
:34:46. > :34:48.abnormality that is not compatible with life, and it's only a very
:34:49. > :34:52.small number of cases each year. It's just that one particular
:34:53. > :34:56.scenario that we are looking at. This is not going to become abortion
:34:57. > :35:01.on demand but that is the way it's being presented in the media and
:35:02. > :35:04.that is the way that our MPs in Stormont are behaving. When you
:35:05. > :35:09.explained to a couple what they would have to do, because they were
:35:10. > :35:11.not allowed to have their baby terminated with you in Northern
:35:12. > :35:17.Ireland, what was their response to that? I don't want to get into too
:35:18. > :35:23.many details, because obviously the family deserve confidentiality. But
:35:24. > :35:27.the father seemed to deal with this by taking a step back and being
:35:28. > :35:33.quite detached about the whole thing. I'm sure he wasn't coming he
:35:34. > :35:37.was very distressed and upset. I have to say, the conversation, I
:35:38. > :35:41.deal with this everyday, I deal with postmortem's everyday, but that was
:35:42. > :35:46.quite simply the most upsetting conversation I'd had in 16 years as
:35:47. > :35:52.a consultant. To talk to a father about what size of picnic cooler we
:35:53. > :35:56.would need to estimate the size that his baby might be, to determine the
:35:57. > :36:00.size of the cooler and to explain about keeping the tissues at four
:36:01. > :36:04.degrees Celsius so we could preserve them the best we could for genetic
:36:05. > :36:08.testing when the baby got back to us in Northern Ireland, it really was
:36:09. > :36:14.quite appalling and quite surreal to have to discuss that. I just found
:36:15. > :36:15.it extremely difficult. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks for joining
:36:16. > :36:19.us this evening. Thank you. The Attorney General's office
:36:20. > :36:21.told the BBC today that the law on abortion is currently under
:36:22. > :36:32.consideration by Court of Appeal. We're going to take you back to that
:36:33. > :36:38.news that has broken whilst we have been on air, we understand there has
:36:39. > :36:42.been a decision on Hinckley. At the moment there is only one source
:36:43. > :36:47.giving as this but the Times has got that the French claim the nuclear
:36:48. > :36:54.plant has been approved at Hinkley Point. Just take us through, Nick,
:36:55. > :37:00.for those who missed it earlier, what state of the deal we think we
:37:01. > :37:04.are at with Hinkley Point now? The Times are citing a report by
:37:05. > :37:10.Bloomberg News saying that EDF, the French energy giant meant to be
:37:11. > :37:13.partnering on this, they have been informed that this deal is going
:37:14. > :37:18.ahead, but crucially there will be conditions, and the big question is
:37:19. > :37:23.that it looks like the conditions may be attached to the Bradwell
:37:24. > :37:26.plant, the second plant in Essex, which China is hoping to build on
:37:27. > :37:34.its very own. As we've been reporting in recent weeks, some of
:37:35. > :37:37.Theresa May's chief aides have voiced concerns about Chinese
:37:38. > :37:47.security and whether they should have sole control over the building
:37:48. > :37:50.of a nuclear power plant. We should say the government is denying any
:37:51. > :37:57.deal has been made, but they would, wouldn't they, at this point? Tim,
:37:58. > :37:59.what would you make of it or understand by this? You always
:38:00. > :38:05.expected Hinkley Point to go through? No, one of the interesting
:38:06. > :38:10.things in the Times report is that the government are insisting that
:38:11. > :38:16.the EDF, the French board of the EDF have two re approved the can deal
:38:17. > :38:20.under new conditions. It was quite a narrowly balanced judgment last time
:38:21. > :38:25.and it could be that with the new conditions the French opt out and
:38:26. > :38:30.therefore it won't be Britons saying to China pulling out of this deal,
:38:31. > :38:34.they're trying to get France to pull out. I'm personally disappointed if
:38:35. > :38:39.it does go ahead. Hinkley Point is a commitment for the British energy
:38:40. > :38:43.payer, the average householder, to really be paying above the odds for
:38:44. > :38:48.energy costs for decades ahead. It could saddle British industry with
:38:49. > :38:51.higher energy costs for a long time. But presumably without it that would
:38:52. > :38:56.have meant we're not going to invest in nuclear power? On this scale.
:38:57. > :39:01.There are other nuclear models. This is the bet I think we're taking if
:39:02. > :39:06.we approve Hinkley Point. We're betting that technology that exist
:39:07. > :39:11.now we will still be committed to 43040 years, when actually there is
:39:12. > :39:14.an awful lot of evidence that solar energy for example, more portable,
:39:15. > :39:19.smaller, nuclear energy is, might actually be much cheaper in ten or
:39:20. > :39:24.20 years' time, so we will be saddled with this providing 7% of
:39:25. > :39:27.British energy, when actually our economic competitors could be using
:39:28. > :39:32.new technologies that allow their industry and consumers to be paying
:39:33. > :39:36.much cheaper bills. If this is the decision, I think it's quite
:39:37. > :39:40.regrettable. We will take you quickly through the papers, which I
:39:41. > :39:47.am looking for the first time too. The Times has this inquiry into
:39:48. > :39:56.police over the 1980s clash with miners. The Telegraph has got
:39:57. > :40:02."Doubts over prostate treatment". Thousands of men told they could
:40:03. > :40:05.avoid surgery affects the Guardian leading with the BBC forced to
:40:06. > :40:06.reveal salaries of star names. That's it for tonight but we leave
:40:07. > :40:13.you with this. French football
:40:14. > :40:14.legend Michel Platini, who said farewell today as President
:40:15. > :40:17.of the European sport's governing body, Uefa, to warm applause
:40:18. > :40:19.from their congress. It didn't seem to matter that he's
:40:20. > :40:21.been barred from football-related activities for four years,
:40:22. > :40:23.following that unfortunate business with Sepp Blatter
:40:24. > :41:16.and 2 million swiss francs. Hello there. The weather is going to
:41:17. > :41:20.get back to normal as we end the week, but one more very warm day to
:41:21. > :41:22.come for some of us, particularly seeing sunshine from the word go
:41:23. > :41:23.across southern