:00:00. > :00:09.The deal that seals Britain's nuclear future, finally signed.
:00:10. > :00:11.After delaying a decision on Hinkley Point, Theresa May has
:00:12. > :00:19.I've been in Whitehall finding out who the real winners and losers
:00:20. > :00:23.And, we'll be talking to the man who drew up the plans
:00:24. > :00:28.The view of my committee is that it'll be an act close to insanity
:00:29. > :00:31.on every grounds to do a blanket suspension of British arms
:00:32. > :00:40.Crispin Blunt tells us that if the courts rule that arms sales
:00:41. > :00:43.to Saudi are illegal, then the law needs to be changed.
:00:44. > :00:47.I have to say, it's great to be back on the campaign trail.
:00:48. > :00:50.She's out of her sick bed, but can Hillary Clinton recapture
:00:51. > :00:53.the ground she's lost to Donald Trump?
:00:54. > :01:11.We'll have the first TV interview with the Grime star who beat Bowie
:01:12. > :01:27.Theresa May today pressed the nuclear button and gave
:01:28. > :01:29.the go-ahead to the controversial Hinkley Point power plant.
:01:30. > :01:31.Mischief-makers have pointed out that the ?18 billion deal means
:01:32. > :01:34.that her Government, like her predecessor's,
:01:35. > :01:37.is quite comfortable with the state ownership of utilities -
:01:38. > :01:40.as long as the states are foreign - in this case, France and China.
:01:41. > :01:42.More trenchant criticism has been directed at the project's escalating
:01:43. > :01:45.costs and the security implications of allowing nuclear power plants
:01:46. > :01:50.to be built in the UK by foreign governments.
:01:51. > :01:52.Indeed, it was these concerns that prompted the Prime Minister
:01:53. > :01:55.to delay her decision and revisit the terms of the deal
:01:56. > :02:02.Newsnight's political editor, Nick Watt, is here.
:02:03. > :02:04.Nick, what are the key differences between the new deal
:02:05. > :02:12.Two levels, nothing has changed. The strike price for this deal. The
:02:13. > :02:17.amount we pay for electricity generated by this plant, that stays
:02:18. > :02:21.the same. In the second place, this marks the beginning of Chinese
:02:22. > :02:25.involve am in our civil nuclear infrastructure and they could still
:02:26. > :02:30.be on course to have a complete say over the building of the third plant
:02:31. > :02:35.in this project, Bradwell in Essex. Downing Street is saying that the
:02:36. > :02:40.Theresa May pause has led to two tangible changes. They are, in the
:02:41. > :02:45.first place, after the Hinkley plant has been built, the UK Government
:02:46. > :02:49.will take what is called a "special share" in all future civil nuclear
:02:50. > :02:53.plants. You will hear in a minute from Sir Ed Davey the former Lib Dem
:02:54. > :02:57.Energy and Climate Change Secretary. He tried to push for something along
:02:58. > :03:01.those lines, George Osborne said no, didn't want to offend the Chinese.
:03:02. > :03:08.The second difference Downing Street points to is a rigorous assessment
:03:09. > :03:10.of what is called "the ownership of critical it infrastructure" that
:03:11. > :03:18.Bradwell plant in the future. That will be a victory for the Prime
:03:19. > :03:23.Minister's joint Chief of Staff Nick Timothy who raised the issue of
:03:24. > :03:27.security of Chinese involve am. Friends of George Osborne are saying
:03:28. > :03:31.absolutely nothing has changed. It's interesting. I have been hearing
:03:32. > :03:36.from senior Whitehall officials they say it's a bit of a set back for
:03:37. > :03:39.Nick Timothy. They say it's difficult how you can reconcile this
:03:40. > :03:43.deal, even as amended with an article that he wrote for the
:03:44. > :03:51.ConservativeHome website last year on the eve of that state visit by Xi
:03:52. > :03:55.Jinping. He wrote, "security experts reportedly inside as well as outside
:03:56. > :03:59.Government are worried that the Chinese could use their role to
:04:00. > :04:04.build weaknesses into computer systems which will allow them to
:04:05. > :04:07.shutdown Britain's energy production at will." There is another feeling
:04:08. > :04:11.in Whitehall. There is a little feeling of guilt that perhaps it was
:04:12. > :04:17.a bit unfair of them to expect Theresa May to become Prime Minister
:04:18. > :04:22.and almost immediately sign up to such a massive project and they are
:04:23. > :04:25.saying, fair enough, that she had to have a pause and have some ownership
:04:26. > :04:30.of it. Many thanks, indeed. Of course, it's not all
:04:31. > :04:33.about politics and security. Many of us will be at least
:04:34. > :04:36.as interested in what it all means Newsnight's Adam Parsons has been
:04:37. > :04:44.looking at the numbers. Here's Hinkley Point a bird spotting
:04:45. > :04:49.haven in Somerset that is the focus of our nation's energy policy. Two
:04:50. > :04:54.nuclear power stations have already been built here, Hinkley Point A,
:04:55. > :05:00.shut in 1999, while B is still up and running. Next door comes the
:05:01. > :05:07.expensive, if unimaginatively named, Hinkley Point C. It's actually going
:05:08. > :05:10.to be two reactors put together costing ?18 billion of French and
:05:11. > :05:14.Chinese money. The biggest contribution of all might yet come
:05:15. > :05:20.from us. The UK's electricity consumers. Here's why. When
:05:21. > :05:26.electricity is sold by power stations they use a measure called a
:05:27. > :05:31.megawatt hour. The electricity you needed to power 3,300 homes for a
:05:32. > :05:38.single hour. Hinkley is guaranteed to be paid ?92. ?92.auto 50 for each
:05:39. > :05:43.megawatt hour it generates. That assured earning figure is called -
:05:44. > :05:46.the strike price. Created after length bey negotiation between EDF
:05:47. > :05:49.and the Government. It's crucial. It's what EDF wanted to provide the
:05:50. > :05:55.certainty that its investment really was worthwhile. It's also how we can
:05:56. > :06:00.analyse just what sort of value we're getting here. What's important
:06:01. > :06:04.to remember is the strike price was created in 2012. It goes up with
:06:05. > :06:09.inflation. So if I could click my fingers and have Hinkley open right
:06:10. > :06:13.now, the price of a megawatt hour would already have gone up to more
:06:14. > :06:17.than ?95. It will keep going up in line with inflation for 35 years
:06:18. > :06:24.after the station opens for business. Let us imagine that
:06:25. > :06:30.Hinkley Point C does open, on time, in 2025, when inflation might have
:06:31. > :06:34.seen the price hit ?110. In 2060 we will be paying ?95 along with
:06:35. > :06:39.four-and-a-half decades worth of inflation. So what does this deal
:06:40. > :06:42.really mean? I'm not going to predict the state of the energy
:06:43. > :06:47.market in 44 years' time. You can see that over the past six years the
:06:48. > :06:52.price of electricity has never got near the Hinkley Point point. It's
:06:53. > :06:56.presently less than half the now famous strike price. What happens
:06:57. > :07:00.when the price of electricity is a lot lower than the money we've all
:07:01. > :07:05.promised EDF? That is where we come in, consumers. We are going to have
:07:06. > :07:10.to pay more to cover that gap. How much? Well, when Hinkley was planned
:07:11. > :07:16.it was reckoned to be a subsidy of ?6 billion. About ?10 per household
:07:17. > :07:20.per year. That figure has mushroomed. The National Audit
:07:21. > :07:25.Office thinks UK businesses and households will have to find ?30
:07:26. > :07:28.billion to plug the gap. One-and-a-half times of cost of
:07:29. > :07:33.building Hinkley in the first place. Why do it? One simple reason is that
:07:34. > :07:37.we need new power stations. Coal ones are being phased out. Others
:07:38. > :07:40.are simply getting old. What are the benefits? 60% of the money that is
:07:41. > :07:46.being spent on construction is expected to go to British companies.
:07:47. > :07:51.Future cash object tariffs imposed on coal and gas power stations might
:07:52. > :07:54.put prices up dramatically. It might be that Hinkley one day looks rather
:07:55. > :07:57.good value-for-money. Here with me now is Sir Ed Davey
:07:58. > :08:00.who negotiated the Hinkley deal in the first place
:08:01. > :08:09.when he was Climate Change Secretary It looks as if the French sent you a
:08:10. > :08:12.wish list and you and George Osborne granted them all? Not at all. The
:08:13. > :08:16.French didn't get what they wanted at all. They wanted a much higher
:08:17. > :08:24.price. George Osborne was prepared to sign a deal at a higher price. I
:08:25. > :08:29.said, absolutely no way. We had to get if Sizewell C goes ahead it will
:08:30. > :08:37.be sub 90. I think because we will need a lot of electricity when our
:08:38. > :08:41.coal power stations shut. We will need a lot of low-carbon electricity
:08:42. > :08:46.because of climate change this has to be part of the answer. Along with
:08:47. > :08:50.all the renewables. I'm proud that with the Liberal Democrats in the
:08:51. > :08:56.last Coalition Government we had a massive expansion of wind and solar
:08:57. > :09:01.a and I put on the agenda tidal lagoons as well. Moving into
:09:02. > :09:10.reverse? I think the Conservatives are making a hugeror. Error. They
:09:11. > :09:16.are putting the nations eggs in the nuclear and gas basket. They have
:09:17. > :09:20.undermined investment energy efficiency and closed down carbon
:09:21. > :09:26.capture storage. They are betting the nation on gas and nuclear. That
:09:27. > :09:30.is irresponsible. Yet, of course, Germany is pressing forward into an
:09:31. > :09:34.energy future completely devoid of nuclear. I appreciate you don't hold
:09:35. > :09:37.a brief for the German company. How come they can do it and we can't?
:09:38. > :09:41.They are burning a lot more coal because they have made a huge mess.
:09:42. > :09:45.Most energy analysts would think the German model is not one to follow.
:09:46. > :09:50.They've investeded in renewables, which is good, they have paid a much
:09:51. > :09:58.higher price for their renewables than they we have. By taking a
:09:59. > :10:01.low-carbon climate friendly nuclear out they are burning dirty coal.
:10:02. > :10:06.That is not a good result for the environment. Speaking of paying a
:10:07. > :10:10.higher price than perhaps consumer or indeed a country has to. Take a
:10:11. > :10:14.look at this graph we have prepared for ease of understanding. That's
:10:15. > :10:19.sort of, as you can see, clearly where the price per unit stands now.
:10:20. > :10:23.That is the price per unit that we will be getting out of Hinkley.
:10:24. > :10:27.Well, you don't need me to tell you there is a fairly big imbalance
:10:28. > :10:32.between the two? The current electricity is provided by gas and
:10:33. > :10:36.coal. They don't pay their pollution costs. They don't pay a carbon
:10:37. > :10:40.price. If you added the carbon price on to that you would see them level
:10:41. > :10:45.up. What I negotiated in the Hinkley price, which is not well-known, but
:10:46. > :10:48.it's very important, is that the costs of nuclear decommissioning,
:10:49. > :10:51.the costs of dealing with the pollution of nuclear, if you like,
:10:52. > :10:57.the nuclear west management costs, they are in the price. You are
:10:58. > :10:59.comparing apples with pears there. Electricity with electricity albeit
:11:00. > :11:04.although different types. Let me explain. You haven't got the point.
:11:05. > :11:08.That includes electricity plus the waste management costs the pollution
:11:09. > :11:12.costs. That doesn't. You have apples and pears. No, it's right. The price
:11:13. > :11:17.to the consumer. It doesn't deal with the cost of dealing with
:11:18. > :11:22.climate change. It's the cheque we write or the direct debit we sign to
:11:23. > :11:25.our electricity people. You are misleading people. You have to deal
:11:26. > :11:29.with price, you have to deal with keeping the lights on. Which clearly
:11:30. > :11:33.Hinkley does. You also have to deal with cleaning up our energy. We have
:11:34. > :11:37.to tackle climate change. So when you look at energy policy you have
:11:38. > :11:42.to do all three. You are looking at one there. That is why you are
:11:43. > :11:45.misleading people. We are not misleading people we are telling
:11:46. > :11:50.them what they will be paying for their electricity than what they are
:11:51. > :11:55.down-the-line. I fully understand the point you are making. The
:11:56. > :12:01.question is why the National Audit Office estimates ?30 billion worth
:12:02. > :12:07.of, they use the word "subsidy" to could be a sweetener coming from the
:12:08. > :12:11.consumer to EDF effectively to the French state, to the French
:12:12. > :12:15.government, 85% owned by the French? One of the reasons why EDF took such
:12:16. > :12:19.a long time to director this and the director of finance resigned from
:12:20. > :12:23.the board, I don't think everyone in France think it is's a good deal for
:12:24. > :12:29.the French. Why might that be? Again in the price I ensured that the UK
:12:30. > :12:34.consumer pays nothing, nothing, unless and until the power station
:12:35. > :12:38.generates. It's supposed to be 2025, it could be later. How much later? I
:12:39. > :12:42.don't know. Of course I don't know yet. Roughly an idea of when it will
:12:43. > :12:46.be up and running? I don't know. You signed the deal? Listen you don't
:12:47. > :12:49.know about nuclear plants. The reason why I'm telling you this
:12:50. > :12:55.important point. If it's overrun, we don't bear the cost. The French bear
:12:56. > :12:59.the cost. If there are overruns, delays the UK consumer is completely
:13:00. > :13:04.protected. That has never happened in a nuclear deal before. There is a
:13:05. > :13:07.possibility that this thing never gets built, right. In what
:13:08. > :13:13.circumstances would that happen? At the moment, this worried me when I
:13:14. > :13:19.was Secretary of State. The EPR hasn't been built in Finland or
:13:20. > :13:25.Paris or hasn't been built in China. I was worried if it doesn't get
:13:26. > :13:29.built we might be laboured and burden with the cost. The deal makes
:13:30. > :13:33.sure the French will have to take up the cost if they don't build it.
:13:34. > :13:36.Unglittering track record, why would you sign up to be the latest
:13:37. > :13:41.customer? We are not bearing the risk. The thing that we had - There
:13:42. > :13:45.is a risk our capacity won't increase if the plant isn't built. I
:13:46. > :13:49.appreciate that might not incur financial costs you have described a
:13:50. > :13:54.system - I was coming back to that. You don't know the question. The
:13:55. > :13:58.ones you cited are behind schedule or might not happen.
:13:59. > :14:02.You went to a shop that failed to satisfy a single customer and
:14:03. > :14:06.handled them the largest of all deals. The largest man made
:14:07. > :14:11.structure on the planet some estimate. I was going to answer a
:14:12. > :14:15.question. You are right if it doesn't make sure if it isn't built
:14:16. > :14:20.the costs are born by the French not the British. Which we have done. We
:14:21. > :14:26.had to make sure we had enough alternative power if it doesn't get
:14:27. > :14:30.built. Hold on. I was arguing we need carbon capture storage, on
:14:31. > :14:34.shore wind, solar, tidal lagoon and other options as a mixed diverse
:14:35. > :14:37.approach and why the Tories are making such a drastic mistake
:14:38. > :14:41.because they have cancelled effectively onshore wind. They have
:14:42. > :14:45.cancelled CCS. They are taking all these options off the table. I
:14:46. > :14:49.ensured they were there to protect the country's interests You signed a
:14:50. > :14:52.long-term. Deal for a nuclear plant that we didn't necessarily need and
:14:53. > :14:55.the Tories back-tracking on environmental policy means we really
:14:56. > :15:01.needed it now and we might not get it? We do need it. Is that an
:15:02. > :15:06.accurate analysis? No. I signed a deal for nuclear powerer we don't
:15:07. > :15:10.need. You said we you could cover the capacity with the other things
:15:11. > :15:15.you introduced? If you are dealing with the big issues of how we power
:15:16. > :15:19.our homes and factories you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Do
:15:20. > :15:22.you? Would you be that irresponsible? No, I wasn't. I
:15:23. > :15:28.ensured both to deal with climate change. We had low-carbon sources
:15:29. > :15:31.and lots of options. That is the sensible cautious thing to do to
:15:32. > :15:35.make sure you protect Britain. The Tories are playing fast and loose
:15:36. > :15:39.because they have taken low-carbon renewables off the table and they
:15:40. > :15:44.are putting all their eggs in this basket. While this deal in itself
:15:45. > :15:50.may be a good thing. They are actually, overall energy policy is a
:15:51. > :15:54.disaster. By the time the ramifications are clear nobody
:15:55. > :15:55.responsible for the deal will be in office just like you aren't at the
:15:56. > :15:59.moment. Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now is Axelle Lemaire,
:16:00. > :16:01.the French Minister of State for She's in town for to drum up
:16:02. > :16:05.bilateral business, especially We'll get on to that momentarily,
:16:06. > :16:09.but I wonder whether you could give us a quick insight into how
:16:10. > :16:12.the French people - and particularly the unions -
:16:13. > :16:14.feel about ?12 billion of French money being spent on a nuclear
:16:15. > :16:26.power plant in Britain? I've tried to fight the answer to
:16:27. > :16:29.that question. I was in London today and I couldn't find the answer
:16:30. > :16:34.because I have not heard anything from the unions. I think that deal
:16:35. > :16:40.is good news for the people who want work and it also gives a long-term
:16:41. > :16:43.prospect for the bilateral cooperation between the countries
:16:44. > :16:48.and I believe that is exacting what we need at the moment. Even when you
:16:49. > :16:51.have heard our former Secretary of State think France is children all
:16:52. > :16:57.of the risk. What I find interesting, when I come here I hear
:16:58. > :17:02.that it is a bad deal for the French. When I go to France, I hit
:17:03. > :17:08.it is a bad deal for the British so I sent it is a fair deal for all. It
:17:09. > :17:15.is more environmentally friendly and it gives clean energy. In France,
:17:16. > :17:18.energy is cheaper as well so I don't know about your price prospect but
:17:19. > :17:24.what I can say is that it is important to have a diversity of
:17:25. > :17:30.energy sources and we have to get ready for long-term prospects. So
:17:31. > :17:33.everyone is a winner. Shall we move on to what you encountered in
:17:34. > :17:38.London, I presume for the first time post Brexit as a minister for
:17:39. > :17:43.responsible T4 entrepreneurial activity, have you detect a change
:17:44. > :17:49.in tone in entrepreneurs and in the city in particular league? I met
:17:50. > :17:55.different people, individuals are worried but there is this strange
:17:56. > :18:00.feeling of, is there a Brexit or is there not a Brexit? It seems from
:18:01. > :18:05.the outside that life goes on. I thought to myself, what is
:18:06. > :18:09.happening. But when you really ask questions, what business people tell
:18:10. > :18:16.you is that in the longer term, the current uncertainty will block their
:18:17. > :18:21.decisions. For example, should they invest in new equipment? Should they
:18:22. > :18:26.hire new people or not? How easy will it be to employ people coming
:18:27. > :18:32.from abroad? It is very important in the sector to be dependent on
:18:33. > :18:38.skilled people. There are a lot of questions... You can't answer them
:18:39. > :18:43.until Article 50 is triggered. Does the French government have a
:18:44. > :18:46.position on when they want to see it triggered? It is not for us to have
:18:47. > :18:54.a position also the sooner the better. I know where you will take
:18:55. > :18:59.me, that I sound tough, it is not a question of sounding tough, but I
:19:00. > :19:04.read that the French are tough and the Germans are soft but because
:19:05. > :19:08.what is in the interests of Britain of the British people, of France and
:19:09. > :19:13.Europe. I think uncertainty is not good for anyone also if you look at
:19:14. > :19:18.the economic figures of the British economy of this summer, it seems
:19:19. > :19:25.pretty good, you might think low pound, good exports, many tourists,
:19:26. > :19:29.no problem. In the longer term, no investment? Less margins for
:19:30. > :19:35.companies, less capacity to invest. I think the longer we wait, the
:19:36. > :19:41.harder the consequences can be also that is really why we want that
:19:42. > :19:46.article 50 to be triggered. The noises from the Treasury suggest
:19:47. > :19:49.early next year, some critics, Herman Van Rompuy had said not until
:19:50. > :19:55.the German election is out of the way. Ideal scenario? Tomorrow,
:19:56. > :20:01.Christmas, New Year's Eve? I feel you are asking me to answer a
:20:02. > :20:05.question but I don't exacting know what the question is because it is
:20:06. > :20:09.what is the deal in the negotiations. When will be triggered
:20:10. > :20:18.be pulled? That is not for me to answer. What would suit York Leon
:20:19. > :20:24.Taylor best? -- your Klingon tell -- clientele. What I observe that the
:20:25. > :20:31.British government wants and needs time and this can be understood. But
:20:32. > :20:39.it is not good to wait for too long. But my real concern, I feel the real
:20:40. > :20:44.political question has not been addressed between freedom of
:20:45. > :20:52.movement of people, and access to the single market. This real
:20:53. > :20:55.question has not been addressed. As long as the British government will
:20:56. > :20:56.not have the question, we will not be in a position to negotiate. Any
:20:57. > :21:01.thanks. -- many thanks. Now a story we have covered
:21:02. > :21:03.a lot on this programme. Select committee reports
:21:04. > :21:06.on the legality of UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia are looking a lot
:21:07. > :21:08.like buses tonight. You wait ages for one then
:21:09. > :21:11.two come along at once. Confusingly, the first -
:21:12. > :21:15.a joint effort by the Business and International Development Committees
:21:16. > :21:17.- deemed it "inevitable that any violations of international
:21:18. > :21:21.humanitarian and human rights law by the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen
:21:22. > :21:23.have involved arms Some expected this to trigger
:21:24. > :21:30.a demand for all such But the Foreign Affairs Select
:21:31. > :21:36.Committee today published a rival report insisting that the legality
:21:37. > :21:39.of arms sales to Saudi should be The chair of that committee,
:21:40. > :21:44.Crispin Blunt, has been speaking to Newsnight's foreign
:21:45. > :21:47.correspondent, Gabriel Gatehouse, with some frankly remarkable results
:21:48. > :21:50.but before we hear about them, I thought it would be helpful
:21:51. > :21:54.to pick Gabriel's brains about how this strange select committee
:21:55. > :22:08.stalemate came to pass. Some background on this, the Saudi
:22:09. > :22:11.led coalition's action over Yemen started last March after who the
:22:12. > :22:17.rebels, took over half the country will stop the action is backed by
:22:18. > :22:19.the UN Security Council so it is legal under international law. Both
:22:20. > :22:24.sides have been accused of committing your -- war crimes with
:22:25. > :22:28.the UN can add with figures that 60% of civilian casualties have been
:22:29. > :22:32.caused by the air strikes by the Saudi led coalition. This programme
:22:33. > :22:35.and others have reported instances of attacks on civilian
:22:36. > :22:39.infrastructure, factories and schools and the like. Where Britain
:22:40. > :22:43.comes into this is that we note that Britain itself a lot of weapons to
:22:44. > :22:47.Saudi Arabia, a 30 fold increase in our sales of weapons in the first
:22:48. > :22:52.year of that war compared to the same period in the previous year.
:22:53. > :22:56.Earlier this year, four select committees came together to look at
:22:57. > :23:02.the question of if our arms sales to Saudi Arabia are still legal. This
:23:03. > :23:05.was made up of MPs from Ball committees, foreign affairs,
:23:06. > :23:09.defence, international development and business -- four committees.
:23:10. > :23:13.Last week we got a leaked draft report with some strong language
:23:14. > :23:16.which said there was credible evidence of violations of human
:23:17. > :23:21.rights and it called for a suspension of sales. Within got the
:23:22. > :23:24.leaked tabled amendments, many written by Crispin Blunt, which
:23:25. > :23:29.appeared to get rid a lot of that language, crucially the call for the
:23:30. > :23:33.suspension of arms sales. There was to and disagreement amongst MPs and
:23:34. > :23:38.Crispin Blunt led a war cabinet of some saying that the committee could
:23:39. > :23:42.not come to an agreement. What happened was an most unprecedented
:23:43. > :23:46.situation to of these two rival reports, the one from business and
:23:47. > :23:49.international development calling for a suspension. Both of them
:23:50. > :23:54.calling for an international investigation but crucially, Crispin
:23:55. > :23:59.Blunt's did not call for that suspension. We have had a lot of
:24:00. > :24:03.talk about process but I wanted to talk about substance so I went to
:24:04. > :24:04.seek Crispin Blunt in his constituency this afternoon and here
:24:05. > :24:08.is some of our conversation. What's at stake here are two things
:24:09. > :24:11.- the rule of law and what's And under the rule of law,
:24:12. > :24:15.there has been an illegal armed It's very important for people
:24:16. > :24:24.to understand the context... The Saudi intervention is backed
:24:25. > :24:26.by the United Nations so therefore But they are also obliged to abide
:24:27. > :24:30.by international law. They are obliged by international
:24:31. > :24:34.humanitarian law. Your colleagues say there has been
:24:35. > :24:39.very credible evidence of violations The issue is about whether there has
:24:40. > :24:47.been an actual breach of international humanitarian law
:24:48. > :24:49.that would then bring a responsibility on the British
:24:50. > :24:51.government to act I don't believe this part of the law
:24:52. > :24:59.has been tested in this way before. Obviously the proper place for that
:25:00. > :25:02.to happen is the courts and that's what the Foreign Affairs
:25:03. > :25:06.Committee are saying. Your colleagues in the other
:25:07. > :25:09.committee say that, while we wait for the courts to decide that,
:25:10. > :25:12.we should suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia in case arms
:25:13. > :25:15.that we sell them are being used That has completely
:25:16. > :25:20.disappeared from your report. It has because the view
:25:21. > :25:24.of my committee is that it would be an act close to insanity on every
:25:25. > :25:28.ground to do a blanket suspension of British arms
:25:29. > :25:30.exports to Saudi Arabia. The kind of bombs we know,
:25:31. > :25:38.the kind of bombs sold by Britain to Saudi Arabia which we
:25:39. > :25:40.know have been dropped And the implications of that, some
:25:41. > :25:45.of those are laser-guided bombs, giving the Saudis the capability
:25:46. > :25:47.through a proper targeting process to actually hit
:25:48. > :25:52.what they are intending to hit. And if we stopped supplying those
:25:53. > :25:57.weapons, they then may have to turn to less guided weapons,
:25:58. > :25:59.the kinds the Russians have been using in Syria for example
:26:00. > :26:02.where the accusation... If we are contravening our own laws
:26:03. > :26:12.by selling weapons to Saudi Arabia that are being used in contravention
:26:13. > :26:14.of international humanitarian law, and the test is very low,
:26:15. > :26:17.if there is a clear risk that these weapons might,
:26:18. > :26:19.might be used in contravention of international humanitarian law,
:26:20. > :26:22.then we must stop doing it. Then we are going to have to see how
:26:23. > :26:26.the judges interpret that. The practical consequences
:26:27. > :26:28.of that are actually It would mean our relationship
:26:29. > :26:35.with the Saudis and the influence we have over them about the joint
:26:36. > :26:39.interests we have is that they are rigorous in making sure
:26:40. > :26:41.there are no breaches That they put their Armed Forces
:26:42. > :26:45.under the same kind We clearly don't have that influence
:26:46. > :26:49.because look at all these The context this has got to be in,
:26:50. > :26:53.and this is exactly why the Foreign Affairs Committee has
:26:54. > :26:56.probably come to a different conclusion to the others,
:26:57. > :26:58.is that this is actually about our wider relationship
:26:59. > :27:00.with Saudi Arabia as well as the more narrow relationship
:27:01. > :27:02.about the Saudis moving to our standards in terms
:27:03. > :27:05.of conducting a military campaign. But our relationship
:27:06. > :27:07.with Saudi Arabia is irrelevant Then surely we have
:27:08. > :27:12.to change the law? Do you think we should
:27:13. > :27:14.change the law? That is in the Foreign Affairs
:27:15. > :27:18.Committee report. If it turned out that the courts
:27:19. > :27:21.decided we were in breach of our law, we would have to,
:27:22. > :27:23.we should then look So we should soften our stance
:27:24. > :27:27.on the criteria under I think some people may look
:27:28. > :27:36.at all of this evidence that has accumulated over 18 months
:27:37. > :27:40.of what has been going on in Yemen and conclude that either
:27:41. > :27:41.you are naive, gullible, They might think that
:27:42. > :27:49.you were naive And the people who come
:27:50. > :27:54.to the other conclusion. Because there is a war
:27:55. > :27:59.going on in the Yemen. This is about international legal
:28:00. > :28:01.authority trying to suppress And the illegal armed rebellion has
:28:02. > :28:11.to be addressed otherwise it is the law of the jungle
:28:12. > :28:15.and the people in the Yemen are then victims of whichever
:28:16. > :28:17.militia, armed group, can impose their will
:28:18. > :28:19.on those people. Time now for our weekly glance
:28:20. > :28:29.across the Atlantic and another valiant attempt to identify the most
:28:30. > :28:32.crucial developments of the last week in America's escalating
:28:33. > :28:35.presidential election. According to the polls,
:28:36. > :28:39.the battle between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump is getting closer
:28:40. > :28:41.by the day while both candidates apparently remain
:28:42. > :28:44.committed to the tactics of attacking their opponent's
:28:45. > :28:47.weaknesses in preference, perhaps, Steve Hilton, CEO of Crowdpac,
:28:48. > :28:58.a political crowd-funding and data site, and David Cameron's former
:28:59. > :29:02.adviser now based in America, joins us from San Francisco,
:29:03. > :29:05.and the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Mary Jordan,
:29:06. > :29:06.who's covering the contest for the Washington Post,
:29:07. > :29:37.is in Washington DC. Thank you both for joining us.
:29:38. > :29:41.Steve, highlights, low lights, somewhere in the middle, what have
:29:42. > :29:45.you chosen for us tonight? There is a lot to talk about but the one I
:29:46. > :29:50.particularly wanted to start with was something Hillary Clinton said
:29:51. > :29:52.last Friday, the date she was diagnosed with pneumonia, I'm not
:29:53. > :29:58.sure if that had anything to do with it. She had allegedly said this in
:29:59. > :30:03.private fundraisers all summer but in public at a glitzy fundraiser in
:30:04. > :30:06.New York with the entertainment provided by none other than Barbara
:30:07. > :30:10.Streisand, she told us exactly what she thinks not just of Trump butt of
:30:11. > :30:11.his supporters and I think we have that clip.
:30:12. > :30:13.You can put half of Trump's supporters into what
:30:14. > :30:17.I call the basket of deplorables.
:30:18. > :30:26.Racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic,
:30:27. > :30:43.The basket of deplorable is. Is it a good or bad move? I think it is
:30:44. > :30:47.honestly a really big mistake. Aside trying to say that this is good for
:30:48. > :30:51.her campaign because it put into the conversation some of the more
:30:52. > :30:57.off-putting element of Donald Trump's rhetoric but in truth what
:30:58. > :31:00.it does is surely true voice of what has become a very arrogant ruling
:31:01. > :31:05.elite and it's not just the Democrats. You hear this talk from
:31:06. > :31:10.the Republican establishment who also hate Trump almost as much as
:31:11. > :31:13.Clinton does. They are showing that this election is dividing up in more
:31:14. > :31:16.interesting ways than we have seen up till now where you have working
:31:17. > :31:21.people who feel that whoever they voted for the last few decades,
:31:22. > :31:26.nothing has got better in their lives. And the elite has been in
:31:27. > :31:30.charge. We have seen as borne out by the data this week, new income
:31:31. > :31:35.figures published show that 50% of all Americans earn less today than
:31:36. > :31:39.in 1999 and in fact the bottom 10% earn less today than in the 1980s
:31:40. > :31:44.and I think that is really driving this enormous sense of anger and
:31:45. > :31:49.resentment at the ruling elite which she then insulted. And yet she does
:31:50. > :31:54.speak some truth, Donald Trump suddenly leaves himself open to
:31:55. > :31:56.accusations of xenophobia and his core support Jim to the rafters and
:31:57. > :32:02.he has attracted support from the likes of former grand Wizard of the
:32:03. > :32:04.KKK -- support him. What she is speaking the truth or making a
:32:05. > :32:07.mistake or something subtler than that?
:32:08. > :32:17.Most definitely it was a huge mistake. Trump made an ad out of
:32:18. > :32:20.that. People had it on their T-shirt "the deplorables" this is clearly a
:32:21. > :32:28.huge mistake. She broke the rule in politics. It's OK. In fact you're
:32:29. > :32:31.supposed to condemn racism and homophobia, but you don't condemn
:32:32. > :32:35.the voters that you need in order to win. In this case half of them. We
:32:36. > :32:41.are short of time tonight. I apologise. Mary, tell us what it is
:32:42. > :32:44.you have chosen to focus on from this week's electioneering? It's
:32:45. > :32:48.been a stealar week for Donald Trump. As you said he is pulling in
:32:49. > :32:52.the polls. Why don't we go to the clip today where he was capitalising
:32:53. > :33:00.on the fact that Hillary Clinton has been out with pneumonia. Where he
:33:01. > :33:06.used a TV doctor to tell all of the country that he is superbly fit. So
:33:07. > :33:08.theatrical and, in some ways, ridiculous.
:33:09. > :33:11.If your health is as strong as it seems,
:33:12. > :33:15.Well, I have really no problem in doing it.
:33:16. > :33:27.One is the report and the other is from Lenox Hill Hospital.
:33:28. > :33:36.He's turning it into a game show, Mary Jordan. Is he winning it? Well,
:33:37. > :33:41.he may be winning it. He is a reality TV star, right? He shows the
:33:42. > :33:48.country over and over again how masterful he is at using TV. He went
:33:49. > :33:52.on TV and got an hour of it today to tell the country that his
:33:53. > :33:58.testosterone, get this, is really high. He has so much stamina. He can
:33:59. > :34:02.hit a golf ball better now at the age age of 70 than when he was 30.
:34:03. > :34:09.He got a huge amount of air time out of this. I think he's a winner. It
:34:10. > :34:14.doesn't matter for a lot of voters that this doctor, Dr Oz has been
:34:15. > :34:18.condemned by people in the Congress, British medical journals, he's
:34:19. > :34:21.baseless. He is the guy for instance you should take coffee bean pills to
:34:22. > :34:26.lose weight. It doesn't matter. He got a lot of air time. I think it
:34:27. > :34:33.would help him. He is fully qualified. Is it another chapter in
:34:34. > :34:39.post-truth politics. I think it is. It's beyond parody. To be serious
:34:40. > :34:41.for a second the real health story was Hillary Clinton's actually
:34:42. > :34:46.health episode, as it has been described. It will have an effect on
:34:47. > :34:51.perceptions among the undecided voters about whether they want to
:34:52. > :34:56.take a risk on her versus Donald Trump who does, through this
:34:57. > :35:01.projects an awe are of strength whatever you think of him. Many
:35:02. > :35:07.thanks indeed for your time tonight. Speaking of winners.
:35:08. > :35:10.Just before we came on air tonight, the winner of this year's
:35:11. > :35:11.prestigious Mercury Music Prize was announced.
:35:12. > :35:13.It wasn't, as some predicted, the late, great David Bowie,
:35:14. > :35:28.He won the ?25,000 prize for his album Konnichiwa.
:35:29. > :35:33.Stephen Smith sent us this dispatch from the ceremony a little earlier.
:35:34. > :35:54.It came down to a contest between two black stars. We as a jury
:35:55. > :35:58.decided that if David Bowie was looking down on the Hammersmith
:35:59. > :36:03.Apollo tonight... APPLAUSE And, let's face, maybe he
:36:04. > :36:08.is. We've seen traces of his influence in many of the bands
:36:09. > :36:17.you've seen perform here tonight. If he was looking down at the
:36:18. > :36:29.Hammersmith Apollo tonight, he would want the 2016 Mercury Prize to go to
:36:30. > :36:32.Skepta. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:36:33. > :36:40.# That's not me # That's not me...
:36:41. > :36:44.# Yeah, I used to wear Gucci # That's not me
:36:45. > :36:48.# True I used to look like you... # Hello, Skepta. Newsnight, home of
:36:49. > :36:53.grime. How do you feel? We are not supposed to ask that question. How
:36:54. > :36:57.do you feel? Um... You looked overwhelmed in there? Yeah. I don't
:36:58. > :37:00.know. Have you ever dreamed of something happening all your life
:37:01. > :37:06.and it happened. It doesn't happen, but for you it did? Umm. It's like.
:37:07. > :37:12.I don't know... It's really reassuring to me to follow my mind
:37:13. > :37:19.and follow what I think. That got me to this point. It's reassuring. I'm
:37:20. > :37:28.happy for my team. So many people behind this guy that helped,
:37:29. > :37:34.Konnichiwa the album. We get to celebrate tonight. Did you hear what
:37:35. > :37:41.Jarvis said about David Bowie. What did you make of his remarks there?
:37:42. > :37:45.Definitely. I understand, as an artist when you are trying to work
:37:46. > :37:49.and putting something out. Getting to the point... Me, personally, I
:37:50. > :37:54.would have been happy to release an album just before I passed. I hope
:37:55. > :37:58.he feels fulfilled and I hope he's happy. Every artist should just
:37:59. > :38:02.strive to be putting out the best work they can because anything can
:38:03. > :38:07.happen. You can go any time, which is the reason I said rest in peace
:38:08. > :38:12.to David Bowie. Rest in peace to Amy Winehouse. I feel I'm representing
:38:13. > :38:16.London in the same way. Yeah, I hope that, yeah, I hope that he's happy
:38:17. > :38:21.man. What about the status of grime though? It's not always had a great
:38:22. > :38:25.press, some people perhaps misunderstand it. So what does this
:38:26. > :38:33.win do for the June are, do you think? We were young. We were young.
:38:34. > :38:36.Like, I think that people... Like, older people need to stop separating
:38:37. > :38:39.themselves from young mind or thinking one day they weren't crazy
:38:40. > :38:43.as well. It's all about understanding. We were young. People
:38:44. > :38:46.didn't want to understand us. We were expressing ourselves. They
:38:47. > :38:51.should have embraced it. It should have happened a long time ago. They
:38:52. > :38:55.didn't. It took me to grow older, realise my value and know my worth
:38:56. > :39:02.and I can carry myself the way I need to and spread therd word of the
:39:03. > :39:03.London streets in a nice manner. What about your mum busting some
:39:04. > :39:14.moves up there? Yeah, yeah! APPLAUS
:39:15. > :39:18.Shouts out to my mum. I love you. You are the reason for this. It
:39:19. > :39:26.sounds a cliche. I wouldn't be here without you. Thank you very much mum
:39:27. > :39:30.you can dance as much as you like. A little word for Newsnight.
:39:31. > :39:37.Newsnight. What channel. BBC Two? Sure, no problem. Tell us about this
:39:38. > :39:44.evening and those dance moves. Oh, my gadness. What can I tell you Does
:39:45. > :39:49.he get it all from you? Yes. Yes. He gets his creativity from dad. He got
:39:50. > :39:52.the dance move, the confidence, the get-up-and-go from me. Did you ever
:39:53. > :39:56.worry about him being in this scene? Did you hope he would have some
:39:57. > :40:01.other kind of job or have you always been behind him? Not really. When we
:40:02. > :40:06.raise them we want them to do what they want to do and we supervise. We
:40:07. > :40:18.didn't train them, we raised them. That's about it for tonight.
:40:19. > :40:22.you with a taste of this year's Mercury Prize winner.
:40:23. > :40:24.You've heard him speak, but here he is, in all his Grimy
:40:25. > :40:25.glory, performing at tonight's ceremony.
:40:26. > :40:33.# They want to know how I did it with no label no A-list
:40:34. > :40:39.# I'm like ring, ring, ring and it's shutdown
:40:40. > :40:42.# Went to the show, sitting in the front row.
:40:43. > :40:44.# In the black tracksuit and it's shutdown.
:40:45. > :40:48.# Boy better know when it's shutdown...#
:40:49. > :41:18.The heatwave is ending with a bang with severe disruption to the
:41:19. > :41:21.south-east including the London area tomorrow morning due to severe
:41:22. > :41:25.thunderstorms. Watch this space. It could be nasty. Wet to other eastern
:41:26. > :41:26.areas through the day with