:00:00. > :00:09.No aid, no ceasefire, no end to the war, now or in sight.
:00:10. > :00:14.Syria's stalemated civil war defies all attempts at resolution,
:00:15. > :00:16.and punishes those trying to ease civilian pain.
:00:17. > :00:22.When both sides realise they're not going to win militarily
:00:23. > :00:25.and the people are just suffering unnecessarily, that's when you get
:00:26. > :00:28.to the stage where you can try and end the war.
:00:29. > :00:43.In Syria I feel we are still some way off that.
:00:44. > :00:46.The US State Department will tell us if there is any way out.
:00:47. > :00:49.Lib Dem leader Tim Farron gives his big conference speech.
:00:50. > :00:52.There is a hole in the centre of British politics right now,
:00:53. > :00:55.for a rallying point for people who believe in the politics of
:00:56. > :01:00.We'll ask whether the political centre is flourishing or withering?
:01:01. > :01:07.I was competing against other artists to try and respond to this
:01:08. > :01:10.quite minimal kind of strange massing that was a requirement of
:01:11. > :01:15.planning, but which had to cover these flues.
:01:16. > :01:27.How to dress up a chimney, the new work from Conrad Shawcross.
:01:28. > :01:31.First, somebody bombed an aid convoy yesterday,
:01:32. > :01:36.There is little doubt as to what happened -
:01:37. > :01:50.this relief worker told Newsnight what he saw.
:01:51. > :01:57.TRANSLATION: What happened is almost two hours before the bombing we
:01:58. > :02:01.heard and we saw a drone. As soon as the regime announced the end of the
:02:02. > :02:06.ceasefire, I had concerns it would start bombing because it flew over
:02:07. > :02:09.us for a long time. After two hours the helicopter came and dropped the
:02:10. > :02:13.first barrel bomb. After half a minute had dropped to barrel bombs
:02:14. > :02:19.together and afterwards six air strikes by the military jet. Then
:02:20. > :02:23.the Jets with guns launched an attack. Afterwards helicopters came
:02:24. > :02:24.back to drop barrel bombs and the jet with gunners came back and
:02:25. > :02:25.started firing. That was last night, tonight there's
:02:26. > :02:28.news of another attack - the US charity UOSSM say five
:02:29. > :02:31.of its aid workers have been killed at the Khan Touman emergency
:02:32. > :02:35.point in southern Aleppo. Of course, everyone's
:02:36. > :02:37.looking at the Syrian government or the Russians,
:02:38. > :02:40.but what we know is that there's not much left
:02:41. > :02:43.of the latest ceasefire in Syria. The protracted horror
:02:44. > :02:45.continues, the conflict Now, research shows the average
:02:46. > :02:51.civil war last a decade or so, but in Syria, the conditions
:02:52. > :02:54.are there for it to be unceasing. Neither side will ever run out
:02:55. > :02:57.of weapons, with a queue of foreign powers ready to re-arm them
:02:58. > :03:01.if they appear in danger of losing. Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban
:03:02. > :03:03.looks at the ghastly kinetics It's a conflict in which taboos and
:03:04. > :03:21.limitations have been broken. Neighbourhoods have been
:03:22. > :03:23.starved, millions driven overseas, aid convoys bombed
:03:24. > :03:26.and the beheading or mistreatment of prisoners elevated
:03:27. > :03:42.into public spectacle. History has recorded quite a few
:03:43. > :03:48.brutal civil war is but this one has reached a particularly grim pitch of
:03:49. > :03:53.murderous intensity. It fits against one another and an array of forces,
:03:54. > :03:57.on the far end of which are President Assad and those around him
:03:58. > :04:01.who believe they will be physically eliminated if they lose, and the
:04:02. > :04:05.jihadist enemy who think they are divinely ordained in their
:04:06. > :04:12.slaughter. It has become much more brutal than
:04:13. > :04:17.Bosnia which I saw at first hand. It became brutal quite quickly in 2012
:04:18. > :04:24.but the arrival of ices and the way Isis went about fighting and
:04:25. > :04:28.imposing their rule and particularly treating their captives, whichever
:04:29. > :04:31.captives they took including Syrian government soldiers, added an extra
:04:32. > :04:38.dimension of brutality which has been truly shocking.
:04:39. > :04:43.Some of Syria's larger cities have been pounded to the point where the
:04:44. > :04:49.ruins stretch for miles. Catalogued by these Russian journalists. More
:04:50. > :04:53.than half of the country's population has fled its homes while
:04:54. > :04:59.mediators have told the warring parties they cannot win, they have
:05:00. > :05:05.not despite all of this, reached a point where exhaustion leads them to
:05:06. > :05:08.abandon the war. If you look at other civil wars
:05:09. > :05:12.around the world and how they ended generally speaking if they are
:05:13. > :05:17.turned by negotiation the end when you reach something the academics
:05:18. > :05:20.call a mutually heading stalemate. When I went to Libya as special
:05:21. > :05:24.envoy I thought we have got a stalemate but we did not have a
:05:25. > :05:29.mutually hurting stalemate, both sides could still advance, game or
:05:30. > :05:33.territory or money. It is when both sides realise they're not going to
:05:34. > :05:38.win militarily and both sides are suffering, that is when you get to a
:05:39. > :05:42.stage where you can end the war. Will the Syrian war simply carry on
:05:43. > :05:46.until one or both sides have fought to exhaustion? It is more
:05:47. > :05:50.complicated than that, that in a way has already happened with the forces
:05:51. > :05:55.of President Assad plagued by desertion and barely capable on
:05:56. > :06:00.their own of offensive action. And of course they have had thousands of
:06:01. > :06:05.fighters join them from Hezbollah, from Iraq, Iran and indeed from
:06:06. > :06:13.Russia. And that has kept them fighting, highlighting the key role
:06:14. > :06:17.now of outside intervention. With a dozen air forces operating
:06:18. > :06:23.over the country and arms pouring in for years only China amongst the UN
:06:24. > :06:28.big five has not become directly involved. And that along with Iran,
:06:29. > :06:32.Saudi and Turkish policies, has stymied the search for any
:06:33. > :06:37.international solution. Huge divisions between the US, Russia,
:06:38. > :06:43.the Saudis and Iran and the future of Assad, until that is resolved and
:06:44. > :06:48.the troops on the ground issue was resolved, you will have continued
:06:49. > :06:53.casualties. 75,000 people are now at risk, the manager convoys are not
:06:54. > :06:58.getting through, Syrians are bombing convoys, the US bombing Syrians, it
:06:59. > :07:03.is a disaster. But few outside powers have the appetite for a
:07:04. > :07:07.completely open-ended intervention. And even Russia and Iran have
:07:08. > :07:11.suggested limits on their willingness to support the Assad
:07:12. > :07:17.regime. Eventually that could weigh on the warring parties. I hope it
:07:18. > :07:21.ends soon but I fear it may take some time. I think as in most other
:07:22. > :07:25.conflicts in the past at some stage there will be a mutually hurting
:07:26. > :07:28.stalemate, the rebels will do better at militarily, Assad will be on the
:07:29. > :07:33.back foot, the Russians will have other reasons to get out of Syria
:07:34. > :07:37.was protecting the interest. Then I think you could begin serious
:07:38. > :07:41.negotiations but I do not think the conflict will end or the fight
:07:42. > :07:51.against ices, until Assad is gone. How long could the Syrian war now in
:07:52. > :07:53.its sixth year go on? The Bosnian conflict was brought to an end by
:07:54. > :07:56.foreign intervention on one side with the aim of coercing a halt to
:07:57. > :08:02.the whole business. Perhaps the closest example we can seek to Syria
:08:03. > :08:06.is the war in Lebanon. And many of the same groups and the same
:08:07. > :08:09.outsiders were involved. And which in one form or another continued for
:08:10. > :08:13.15 years. Joining us from the UN in New York
:08:14. > :08:26.is Mark Toner Deputy Spokesperson Good evening and thank you for
:08:27. > :08:35.joining us. On that attack on the aid convoy yesterday, you're sure it
:08:36. > :08:41.is the Russians, 99%, 100% sure? What I can say categorically is it
:08:42. > :08:46.was not coalition forces. We were not operating in that space. It was
:08:47. > :08:49.either Russia or the regime. And in either case really it is the
:08:50. > :08:55.responsibility of Russia to exert its influence on the regime's Edfors
:08:56. > :09:01.so it bears ultimate responsibility for carrying out what was a
:09:02. > :09:06.horrendous attack. Is the ceasefire, a ceasefire in all but name, is that
:09:07. > :09:11.worth preserving at this point, West for giving Russia for what has
:09:12. > :09:16.happened and saying, let's start again, or not? There was a meeting
:09:17. > :09:20.earlier today in New York with the international Syria support group
:09:21. > :09:25.and it was a very candid exchange as you can imagine. I think everyone
:09:26. > :09:29.came out of that room, all the stakeholders, with the realisation
:09:30. > :09:34.that we needed to stick with the arrangement we reached with Russia a
:09:35. > :09:40.week ago in Geneva. Because it offers the best opportunity to get
:09:41. > :09:44.this critical negotiation back on track and bring an end to the
:09:45. > :09:51.conflict, the daily suffering and fighting of the Syrian people. You
:09:52. > :09:56.spoke of this cycle of violence and complexity of the battle space in
:09:57. > :10:00.Syria. And we need that is the idea behind this Syria support group,
:10:01. > :10:03.bringing together all the stakeholders, ultimately with the
:10:04. > :10:07.idea that if we can get them around the table, they can exert influence
:10:08. > :10:15.is on the parties on the ground. To really make a change. Do you think
:10:16. > :10:22.that what happened on Saturday when coalition forces, when the US and
:10:23. > :10:27.indeed the UK killed 62 Syrian troops, accidentally, do you think
:10:28. > :10:31.that had anything to do with what happened last night? It is hard for
:10:32. > :10:39.me to say, I cannot speak to the motivations for the terrible actions
:10:40. > :10:42.yesterday. We have said it publicly, acknowledged it almost immediately,
:10:43. > :10:47.that the air strike on Saturday that hit regime forces was in error. We
:10:48. > :10:52.thought we were hitting Isil, Daesh, forces. And we acknowledge that and
:10:53. > :10:55.we owned it. We are conducting an investigation into what went wrong.
:10:56. > :11:00.More broadly fixed to the fact that we need to get to a point and we're
:11:01. > :11:04.not there yet, where we can coordinate possibly with Russia on
:11:05. > :11:09.air strikes against al-Nusra and Daesh. They claim to want that as
:11:10. > :11:13.well but we cannot get there. Let's talk about the longer term, supposed
:11:14. > :11:17.I told you this would be a leaden uncivil war going on for another ten
:11:18. > :11:22.years, only a third of the way through. I gave you that has a
:11:23. > :11:29.choice or you given, Assad is going to be in power, and he prevails.
:11:30. > :11:34.Surely that would be better for the Syrian people, Assad winning rather
:11:35. > :11:40.than continuing this conflict? Not at all. That is a false choice in my
:11:41. > :11:48.view. Assad has really been the instigator of all the terrible
:11:49. > :11:53.conflict that exists today in Syria whether it is terrible attacks, Bal
:11:54. > :11:58.bombing, gassing of his own people, he has created the environment that
:11:59. > :12:03.we find Syria in today will you have a moderate opposition driven into
:12:04. > :12:06.the arms of some of the extremist groups like al-Nusra because they
:12:07. > :12:12.are defending themselves against the regime backed by Russian air forces.
:12:13. > :12:18.And you have got an environment where a group like Daesh, Isil, can
:12:19. > :12:25.inhabit ungoverned spaces. Really this is the reality of Assad's
:12:26. > :12:29.creation and he is in no way part of the solution. This has got to be a
:12:30. > :12:33.political process ultimately. But you would agree that foreign
:12:34. > :12:39.intervention, that effectively just keep each of these two sides, more
:12:40. > :12:44.than the two sides, all the sides in this conflict going, it will keep
:12:45. > :12:51.them going endlessly, basically foreign intervention is prolonging
:12:52. > :12:55.the war, correct? That is the idea behind the international Syria
:12:56. > :12:59.support group. Secretary Kerry and others brought this group together
:13:00. > :13:05.with the idea that if we could get all the stakeholders, and Iran and
:13:06. > :13:09.Russia are part of this, get them in a room and said look there is no
:13:10. > :13:13.military solution to this, it can only go from bad to worse and we all
:13:14. > :13:17.acknowledge that. And secretary Kerry spoke of this but the
:13:18. > :13:22.arrangement if it falls apart, we could see even more violence, even
:13:23. > :13:26.worse warfare and greater conflict for the Syrian people. This hinges
:13:27. > :13:30.on the ability of the stakeholders to influence all the parties on the
:13:31. > :13:35.ground to adhere to a cessation of hostilities and we're not yet bear.
:13:36. > :13:38.We recognise that. Let's hope we get there soon.
:13:39. > :13:42.The National Executive talking about important rule changes
:13:43. > :13:44.on how the Shadow Cabinet should be selected.
:13:45. > :13:49.that split the party on Corbyn/anti-Corbyn lines.
:13:50. > :13:56.Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.
:13:57. > :14:02.What news from Rome? It was long at eight and a half hours at least, and
:14:03. > :14:07.superficially it was friendly, Jeremy Corbyn shed shortbread and
:14:08. > :14:11.biscuits with Tom Watson, but make no mistake, this is a battle for
:14:12. > :14:15.control of the Labour Party, and on the crucial issue of whether MPs
:14:16. > :14:20.should elect the Shadow Cabinet, there is deadlock. Each side was
:14:21. > :14:23.able to claim a little victory, so the non-Corbyn side were happy
:14:24. > :14:28.because it was agreed that the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh
:14:29. > :14:34.Labour Party microbe will be able to nominate members for the NEC. Jeremy
:14:35. > :14:38.Corbyn's side were happy, because they were able to prolong
:14:39. > :14:42.discussions on the elections to the Shadow Cabinet. They saw off a
:14:43. > :14:48.guillotine to force a vote one that at Saturday's meeting of the NEC.
:14:49. > :14:53.Tom Watson looked quite happy, they said they did not reject the plan,
:14:54. > :14:56.but it feels to me that Jeremy Corbyn is slightly ahead, and he is
:14:57. > :15:01.hoping that if he wins the election on Saturday, later that day there
:15:02. > :15:09.will be a meeting of the NEC and he will hope that he can say to them,
:15:10. > :15:13.we need more time to discuss this proposal, widen the franchise, and
:15:14. > :15:18.at the end of the conference the new NEC takes over, and they are more
:15:19. > :15:21.favourable to him. Where does this leave us in terms of Jeremy Corbyn
:15:22. > :15:26.winning on Saturday, where the battle goes next year? There is
:15:27. > :15:30.going to be a continuing and bitter battle for control of the party, but
:15:31. > :15:36.in phase two it will be different. Phase one was about most of the PLP
:15:37. > :15:40.taking potshots at Jeremy Corbyn, that will be more difficult if he
:15:41. > :15:45.wins the election. Phase two will be about the battle for who runs this
:15:46. > :15:49.party, and in a way it will be back to the 1980s, where you will see
:15:50. > :15:53.Jeremy Corbyn seeking to fulfil the vision of his hero, Tony Benn, which
:15:54. > :15:57.is you diminish the role of the Parliamentary Labour Party and boost
:15:58. > :16:02.the role of the party membership, and people like Tom Watson will save
:16:03. > :16:06.no, we are governed by clause one of the constitution which says it is
:16:07. > :16:10.our duty to sustain a covenant, which means the PLP must be the
:16:11. > :16:12.premier body of the party. Nick, thanks.
:16:13. > :16:15.A week ago, the foreign minister of Luxembourg suggested that Hungary
:16:16. > :16:18.should be expelled from the EU, over its treatment of asylum seekers
:16:19. > :16:22.and violations of press freedom and judicial independence,
:16:23. > :16:25.It was a short but vitriolic spat, and it put into the open
:16:26. > :16:28.the concerns of many west Europeans at the direction Hungary is taking
:16:29. > :16:30.under its populist prime minister, Viktor Orban,
:16:31. > :16:32.a man who talks about foreigners in language that other
:16:33. > :16:37.At the moment Hungary is preparing to vote on whether to reject
:16:38. > :16:40.an EU quota plan for migrants that would place refugees in the country.
:16:41. > :16:44.is that that will endanger Hungary's culture and traditions.
:16:45. > :16:47.Well, the Hungarian foreign minister, Pater Szijjarto,
:16:48. > :16:51.is in New York for the UN General Assembly.
:16:52. > :16:54.I spoke to him a little earlier and before we discussed his
:16:55. > :16:56.government's attitude to refugees, I asked him about
:16:57. > :17:00.what Hungary would accept in any post-Brexit trade talks.
:17:01. > :17:04.We understand that the negotiations will be tough.
:17:05. > :17:07.We understand the UK has very strong interest.
:17:08. > :17:13.Of course, the more open the labour market in the UK stays
:17:14. > :17:18.And if Britain says, look, we'd like to be in the single market
:17:19. > :17:21.but we can't have free movement, is that possible, do you think?
:17:22. > :17:23.Well, you know, I think it's not likely to happen,
:17:24. > :17:30.because if you would like to have total access to free markets,
:17:31. > :17:33.you have to give something on the other hand.
:17:34. > :17:36.So being a member of the European Union means that
:17:37. > :17:38.you are a member of the single market and you provide
:17:39. > :17:41.the others with an approach to your labour markets.
:17:42. > :17:44.Well, look, Hungary is a country that has its own reservations
:17:45. > :17:49.You're having a referendum on the quota deal
:17:50. > :17:52.for the refugees and migrants that are being resettled,
:17:53. > :17:58.How many have you been asked to take, as it happens?
:17:59. > :18:00.Well, under the current circumstances,
:18:01. > :18:09.But, you know, this is not about figures.
:18:10. > :18:15.This is about the overall approach to the migration issue.
:18:16. > :18:18.Our position is that we have to give up policies which inspire
:18:19. > :18:21.people to take the life hazard and come to Europe.
:18:22. > :18:23.Our approach is that we have to bring the help
:18:24. > :18:29.It sounds like you like some European laws, like free movement
:18:30. > :18:31.for your people to emigrate to the UK, which has caused
:18:32. > :18:35.a lot of disruption in the UK, some people would say.
:18:36. > :18:39.But you don't like other European laws
:18:40. > :18:40.which mean people can emigrate to your country.
:18:41. > :18:47.No, no, you must not confuse these two things.
:18:48. > :18:50.Because free movement of people means that citizens
:18:51. > :18:52.of the European Union can move freely
:18:53. > :18:58.What we don't accept is that there are people
:18:59. > :19:01.who would like to violate our borders, you know.
:19:02. > :19:04.There are European and international regulations how you can cross
:19:05. > :19:08.borders between countries, and during the recent year
:19:09. > :19:10.there were 400,000 people who violated our border.
:19:11. > :19:13.Coming from a peaceful country, from Serbia or from Croatia.
:19:14. > :19:16.This is something we're not going to accept.
:19:17. > :19:19.OK, well, many would say rules are rules and you have to take
:19:20. > :19:21.all the rules, or you don't take the rules.
:19:22. > :19:23.But let me just ask you one last one.
:19:24. > :19:27.There's a leaflet in your referendum campaign, a government leaflet,
:19:28. > :19:32.and it tells the Hungarian people in advocating less migration
:19:33. > :19:36.that there are hundreds, several hundred no-go areas in Europe
:19:37. > :19:39.where migrants have taken over and people can get.
:19:40. > :19:44.I think there are about a dozen, you say, in the UK.
:19:45. > :19:49.Well, actually, we based these informations
:19:50. > :19:53.on open reports, on official reports
:19:54. > :19:57.given by the police of respective countries.
:19:58. > :19:59.From the news and from official reports of the police.
:20:00. > :20:06.and we don't want no-go zones in Hungary, for sure.
:20:07. > :20:09.So you think that there are no-go zones,
:20:10. > :20:13.migrant no-go zones in the UK, a dozen of them?
:20:14. > :20:15.Because you marked them, I think, in Peterborough,
:20:16. > :20:20.I mean, you've been to London, haven't you?
:20:21. > :20:23.Yes, of course, I like London a lot, no problem.
:20:24. > :20:26.And you still believe there are no-go areas in London
:20:27. > :20:28.where you can't go because the migrants have taken over?
:20:29. > :20:31.Yes, this is something we based on official reports.
:20:32. > :20:38.You can use your eyes, it's just ridiculous.
:20:39. > :20:40.Of course I can. Of course I can.
:20:41. > :20:44.But did you talk to the British Government
:20:45. > :20:46.before you published this about the United Kingdom?
:20:47. > :20:52.It's a slur on the United Kingdom, by the way an inaccurate slur
:20:53. > :20:54.on the United Kingdom - did you talk to the British Government
:20:55. > :20:57.or even your embassy in London before you published this
:20:58. > :21:01.Yes, of course we did talk to our embassy in London.
:21:02. > :21:04.We have looked through very carefully the official report.
:21:05. > :21:08.And to be very honest after we published this leaflet,
:21:09. > :21:11.your ambassador serving in Budapest has come to my ministry to
:21:12. > :21:18.Let's finish, Hungary is basically annoying
:21:19. > :21:24.voices the idea that you should be kicked out of the European Union.
:21:25. > :21:26.When you see things like this, distributing literature
:21:27. > :21:30.that is false and defamatory of a nation, lots of nations,
:21:31. > :21:33.actually, you can see why other governments just say,
:21:34. > :21:36.this country is not playing by the rules that it signed up
:21:37. > :21:48.That is why I think we are under attack, because we play according
:21:49. > :21:52.to the rules of showing, we play according to the rules of Dublin.
:21:53. > :21:55.These two rules have been violated by many people, many times,
:21:56. > :22:03.we have been under attack because of playing according to these rules.
:22:04. > :22:09.We have protected our external Schengen border with
:22:10. > :22:12.a fence that took a lot of money, a lot of human resources,
:22:13. > :22:15.but this is the way how you protect the Schengen zone.
:22:16. > :22:16.We registered the migrants in Hungary
:22:17. > :22:18.according to Dublin regulations, but they left before
:22:19. > :22:20.their asylum procedures would have been carried out.
:22:21. > :22:24.They were the ones to break these regulations.
:22:25. > :22:26.So it is Hungary who plays according to European regulations,
:22:27. > :22:31.And I totally subscribe to those who say we have to accept
:22:32. > :22:34.these regulations and we have to respect them.
:22:35. > :22:42.Pater Szijjarto, thank you very much for talking to us.
:22:43. > :22:45.One of the great paradoxes of politics in the UK at the moment
:22:46. > :22:48.is this, polling shows that getting on for half of the population
:22:49. > :22:54.identify as centrist, and yet the party that is centrist,
:22:55. > :22:57.the Lib Dems, languishes at 8% in the polls.
:22:58. > :22:59.Well, Tim Farron gave his address to the Lib Dem
:23:00. > :23:01.conference today, bad day to get attention,
:23:02. > :23:02.with the Brangelina split story competing.
:23:03. > :23:06.But Mr Farron said, "There is a hole in the centre of British politics
:23:07. > :23:09.right now that is crying out to be filled by a real opposition,"
:23:10. > :23:11.so it is interesting to ask whether the Lib Dems
:23:12. > :23:14.are going to fill the hole, or sink through it?
:23:15. > :23:16.They got almost seven million votes in 2010 but lost more
:23:17. > :23:21.so I guess those four million should be first on the target list.
:23:22. > :23:29.at whether those voters are disposed to think Lib Dem again.
:23:30. > :23:31.On his way for his big conference speech.
:23:32. > :23:36.Lib Dem leader Tim Farron waiting for the lights to change.
:23:37. > :23:38.For his party, though, the electoral Green Man
:23:39. > :23:43.could quite possibly never light up again.
:23:44. > :23:45.On the local level they are very cheered up by winning
:23:46. > :23:55.and they've had a large influx of new members into the party.
:23:56. > :23:59.And clearly they see there is an opportunity for them
:24:00. > :24:02.because Corbyn has taken the Labour Party way off to the left.
:24:03. > :24:05.Unfortunately of course, the national picture remains
:24:06. > :24:06.unchanged since before the last disastrous
:24:07. > :24:08.general election result, which is the national polls
:24:09. > :24:10.are still stuck way, way down in single figures.
:24:11. > :24:14.These people have clearly stuck with the party,
:24:15. > :24:18.the 4.4 million voters who voted for them in 2010
:24:19. > :24:22.In some exclusive polling for Newsnight,
:24:23. > :24:29.What they found should worry the Lib Dem leadership.
:24:30. > :24:35.When asked whether they would consider voting Lib Dem again,
:24:36. > :24:37.75% said they might, with varying degrees of commitment.
:24:38. > :24:46.So it seems the lost Lib Dems might one day be recovered.
:24:47. > :24:47.But when YouGov asked those same people
:24:48. > :24:50.how much they felt they knew about what the Lib Dems
:24:51. > :24:52.stand for these days, a staggering 70% said
:24:53. > :24:58.they were either uncertain or very uncertain.
:24:59. > :25:00.Johnny Oates was Nick Clegg's chief of staff
:25:01. > :25:12.I think this really goes back to our pre-coalition days, to be honest,
:25:13. > :25:14.where we always fought to get attention.
:25:15. > :25:16.It's harder now because of the Scottish National Party
:25:17. > :25:20.position, but it was always hard back then, and I think what we need
:25:21. > :25:23.Probably a Parliamentary by-election that we can win
:25:24. > :25:26.and, you know, there isn't one immediately on the horizon.
:25:27. > :25:29.But that has often been the way that we have cut
:25:30. > :25:31.through back to public attention because then the media
:25:32. > :25:34.have to hear from us and they have to sit up and take notice.
:25:35. > :25:36.Until the media thinks we are relevant,
:25:37. > :25:39.we're not going to get our message across to the wider public.
:25:40. > :25:43.Since the SNP became the third largest party in the comments,
:25:44. > :25:49.the Lib Dems have had to forage for Parliamentary scraps.
:25:50. > :25:54.However irritating the honourable gentleman...
:25:55. > :25:58.Whilst his predecessors had two questions a week, Tim Farron
:25:59. > :26:03.has only had six questions in the 34 PMQs since he became leader.
:26:04. > :26:06.And he will be heard - Mr Tim Farron!
:26:07. > :26:12.I am fantastically grateful to you, Mr Speaker.
:26:13. > :26:17.In today's world, the world of social media, the world of
:26:18. > :26:19.24-hour news, leaders are so important,
:26:20. > :26:26.you see a leader who among the electorate, two thirds of the
:26:27. > :26:29.people don't know whether he's doing well or badly.
:26:30. > :26:31.Half of people that voted for the Lib Dems
:26:32. > :26:34.at the last election don't know whether he is doing well or badly.
:26:35. > :26:38.And among his own supporters, those people who
:26:39. > :26:41.support the Lib Dems at the moment, just under a third don't know
:26:42. > :26:44.That's a really bad position to be in.
:26:45. > :26:47.But no-one can say that Tim Farron isn't ambitious.
:26:48. > :26:52.Today he told his conference he wants to be like this man.
:26:53. > :27:00.the rock star like Liberal Prime Minister of Canada.
:27:01. > :27:02.Trudeau's liberals leapt over an inadequate official opposition
:27:03. > :27:05.to defeat a right-wing Conservative government.
:27:06. > :27:08.Do you fancy doing that? Because I do.
:27:09. > :27:11.In a direct appeal to centrist Labour supporters,
:27:12. > :27:21.Tony Blair's government gave us the national minimum wage.
:27:22. > :27:28.and a massive school building programme.
:27:29. > :27:36.but I will not criticise him for those things.
:27:37. > :27:40.I think Tim Farron was absolutely right to make this pitch
:27:41. > :27:43.for those disenfranchised moderate Labour voters
:27:44. > :27:45.who now feel they have no-one to represent their views.
:27:46. > :27:48.And indeed their worldview, which is essentially a liberal one.
:27:49. > :27:50.The problem is both the Lib Dems and for
:27:51. > :27:52.the moderate Labour Party, there is a gaping hole,
:27:53. > :27:55.not just this tactical hole that Tim Farron was talking
:27:56. > :27:58.about today, but a hole in terms of ideas and vision
:27:59. > :28:05.And until the Lib Dems and the moderate Labour Party
:28:06. > :28:07.or the moderate wing of the Labour Party
:28:08. > :28:09.actually sort that out, what is it that they're actually
:28:10. > :28:11.offering the voters as an alternative
:28:12. > :28:18.One big policy that unites the centrists is staying in the EU,
:28:19. > :28:25.The idea of the Lib Dems concentrating on staying part of the
:28:26. > :28:27.EU is popular with about one in ten of the electorate
:28:28. > :28:29.and about a quarter of their current supporters.
:28:30. > :28:33.That is enough to put it at the top of the list of priorities.
:28:34. > :28:35.But it is by no means overwhelmingly the case
:28:36. > :28:39.thinks yes, that is what they should be doing.
:28:40. > :28:41.These are not easy political times for any leader,
:28:42. > :28:43.we are in a state of realignment and flux.
:28:44. > :28:47.Tim Farron's party has arguably the most to gain.
:28:48. > :28:53.But also perhaps the biggest challenge.
:28:54. > :29:00.Joining me now in the studio is former policy advisor
:29:01. > :29:03.to the Blair and Brown governments, Patrick Diamond, who is now based
:29:04. > :29:10.And senior editor of The Economist Anne McElvoy.
:29:11. > :29:16.Patrick, you are a Labour person. You would not vote Lib Dem even
:29:17. > :29:21.though you're quite centrists. That is part of the problem in a way for
:29:22. > :29:26.the Lib Dems, you are still tribally tied to Labour. Of course the Lib
:29:27. > :29:30.Dems are tied to liberalism which has problems in the world today, not
:29:31. > :29:36.least failing to react to the economic crisis of 2008. And also
:29:37. > :29:40.Liberal politics is in crisis, people are dissatisfied with the
:29:41. > :29:45.state of democracy. That is one issue. In addition the Lib Dems are
:29:46. > :29:51.associated with the period of coalition government. They relied on
:29:52. > :29:58.some historic promises like tuition fees. So now the position is
:29:59. > :30:06.weakened. Taking the bigger picture, 45% of people say they are centrist,
:30:07. > :30:12.the Lib Dems have eight, the two big parties, the Tories still jostling
:30:13. > :30:19.for position, is happening? Most people would identify as centrists
:30:20. > :30:25.but they mean many things by that. Then you have a fragmentation on the
:30:26. > :30:32.left, the Corbin Labour Party, moving further to the left than in
:30:33. > :30:36.living memory. So new Labour is ill-defined and on the right you can
:30:37. > :30:42.see the potential, Theresa May trying to glue together the right of
:30:43. > :30:48.her party and more progressive, liberal part of the party. George
:30:49. > :30:52.Osborne went out and used the word liberal as much as the word
:30:53. > :30:58.Conservative. That is where the fight is that hole in the middle and
:30:59. > :31:01.perhaps the Liberal Democrats are too associated with recently being
:31:02. > :31:06.in government and suffering that backwash. They have lost a lot of
:31:07. > :31:15.body mass. Patrick, it was the financial crash, that funded to the
:31:16. > :31:19.system and the people in the middle, it is also the right of the Labour
:31:20. > :31:24.Party, the leadership election last year, Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham
:31:25. > :31:29.did not quite have a convincing story. There is a crisis of ideas
:31:30. > :31:33.and it feels as if the whole of the centre-left does not have a story
:31:34. > :31:39.about Word wants to take the economy or politics. That is the real
:31:40. > :31:44.vacuum. You can talk about leadership, the structure of
:31:45. > :31:48.political parties, but also ideas. And the financial crash was so
:31:49. > :31:53.tumultuous, it shook up the liberal capitalist market order and the
:31:54. > :31:58.centrists were saying we just need to tweak this. We did not need
:31:59. > :32:03.tweaks but radicalism, the bankers to be brought to heel. And the
:32:04. > :32:09.Liberals seem too cautious. When we look at this crisis of liberalism,
:32:10. > :32:15.we are in danger of presenting the kind of SA as to what is wrong. If
:32:16. > :32:22.you look across Europe, in some places you get the left coming in,
:32:23. > :32:28.in Spain for example, but also in many places the response is to go to
:32:29. > :32:31.the right. Saint liberalism does not have a narrative, centrist parties
:32:32. > :32:37.have often just said come with me, trust me. We will be able to answer
:32:38. > :32:46.difficult questions by our disposition. Tony Blair said, I have
:32:47. > :32:53.the answer to everything. It was so vague, the third way, basically it
:32:54. > :32:56.is saying trust me because the Liberals have the better answers
:32:57. > :33:03.overall. That is the confidence that is now lacking. You said they do not
:33:04. > :33:06.have a good story and they do not have a charismatic leader, a person
:33:07. > :33:13.who sounds like they have got a grip. I'm a bit worried when
:33:14. > :33:16.everyone says, almost as if listening to some people in your
:33:17. > :33:23.film, if you have a policy forum that it would emerge, a genie
:33:24. > :33:32.emerging from a body to lead. -- from a bottle. Tony Blair to evoke
:33:33. > :33:37.him, as a charismatic leader, if you lead they will follow. He was
:33:38. > :33:43.trusted even in difficult times. Then Christian democracy follows, if
:33:44. > :33:47.you have a Tony Blair then new Labour follows but for the Liberals,
:33:48. > :33:52.I suppose you have to go to Canada and Justin Trudeau. It is
:33:53. > :33:56.interesting, when arguably the liberal disposition could be
:33:57. > :34:00.powerful, if you think of the questions dominating politics today,
:34:01. > :34:04.the relationship between the individual and the state, between
:34:05. > :34:09.central government and devolution, there are questions about future
:34:10. > :34:13.relations with Europe and internationalism. These are
:34:14. > :34:18.questions where liberals should have some things to say. So I do not
:34:19. > :34:22.think it has run aground and is no longer relevant, but it is
:34:23. > :34:29.struggling I think in the UK context to apply its values and connect with
:34:30. > :34:34.people politically. Certainly around the world, and Justin Trudeau is a
:34:35. > :34:37.good example, that charismatic leader, they are there. But we are
:34:38. > :34:41.living through circumstances in which the extremes, but populist
:34:42. > :34:43.left and right, seem to be gaining political ascendancy. Thank you very
:34:44. > :34:44.much. If you like to think that modern art
:34:45. > :34:48.is a lot of hot air, you'll like the new work
:34:49. > :34:50.by the wunderkind British artist We're not talking a duct
:34:51. > :34:55.for a new shower stall here, this is a shimmering aluminium tower
:34:56. > :34:57.50 metres high, and it's You can admire it on the Greenwich
:34:58. > :35:02.Peninsula not far from the O2. Our man Stephen Smith
:35:03. > :35:06.went to see it. It's more like One Flew Over The
:35:07. > :35:28.Cuckoo's Nest. It feels amazing, it's such
:35:29. > :35:42.a sort of huge thing. It has fire escapes inside,
:35:43. > :35:44.it has chimneys inside, it has flues inside,
:35:45. > :35:47.it has gantry cranes. And there are all these fire
:35:48. > :35:52.exits, all these things So it really is an
:35:53. > :35:55.architectural response. And am I right in saying this
:35:56. > :35:58.might be a door here? Yeah, this will be the way that
:35:59. > :36:01.you access the towers if any of the flues need servicing
:36:02. > :36:06.or the lights need changing. This sort of strange triangular
:36:07. > :36:08.door that the workers Or Spider-Man could live
:36:09. > :36:14.here, one of the other. Until now, your best
:36:15. > :36:25.chance of seeing the work of Conrad Shawcross
:36:26. > :36:28.was at an art gallery. Where his chunky, kinetic pieces
:36:29. > :36:38.have a pleasing heft and twang. For his next trick, Shawcross
:36:39. > :36:45.was invited to design a chimney for an industrial plant supplying
:36:46. > :36:51.hot water to 15,000 homes here. I was approached a few years ago
:36:52. > :36:58.and I entered into a competition, so I was competing
:36:59. > :37:04.against other artists. This was such a different thing
:37:05. > :37:07.for me and I kind of almost wrote this e-mail saying, I'm sorry,
:37:08. > :37:10.I cant come up with an idea, Then I was like, no,
:37:11. > :37:14.I've got to try and do this. This is a way I can really
:37:15. > :37:18.prove my mettle, to see if I can It was all actually done
:37:19. > :37:23.with pieces of paper. So it was actually quite simple,
:37:24. > :37:27.just placing a piece of spare paper and creating in a very analog way
:37:28. > :37:37.a kind of sculpted surface. One of the things in the brief
:37:38. > :37:40.that they talked about was trying to transform this flue
:37:41. > :37:41.into something else. So there was this sort of element
:37:42. > :37:44.of disguise or cloaking, this idea of something pretending
:37:45. > :37:47.to be something else. It took me down the road
:37:48. > :37:50.of camouflage and the way things But then that took me down looking
:37:51. > :37:55.at dazzle camouflage in the First World War
:37:56. > :37:59.and camouflage in general. Then into things like
:38:00. > :38:06.Cubism and David Bamberg. The gasometer that is just behind
:38:07. > :38:08.us, the interference pattern at the front and back,
:38:09. > :38:11.trying to create a skin that would somehow make it more
:38:12. > :38:17.arresting, but yet disappear. I imagine there's always a slightly
:38:18. > :38:20.heart in mouth moment when, as the architect,
:38:21. > :38:24.you show your plans to the guys There was a lot of stuff that didn't
:38:25. > :38:30.make a lot of sense to them. And there were a lot of meetings
:38:31. > :38:33.with just sort of 20 blue-collar guys just sitting round a table
:38:34. > :38:39.with me trying to explain this sort of optic effect to people
:38:40. > :38:41.and how important it was. Did you hear what
:38:42. > :38:44.they were muttering? There must've some people who didn't
:38:45. > :38:49.get it, but hopefully now I don't know whether you would
:38:50. > :38:55.consider this public art, but it's come in for a bit
:38:56. > :38:59.of a bashing recently. I don't describe
:39:00. > :39:01.this as an artwork. I think it's an architectural
:39:02. > :39:03.response. I think public art is a very
:39:04. > :39:06.difficult thing to get right. You do have to swallow your ego
:39:07. > :39:09.a bit and really respond to both space, concept, history,
:39:10. > :39:15.and all of those things. This will look really powerful
:39:16. > :39:17.when someone is doing the washing up each night,
:39:18. > :39:20.they will see the sun set behind it. And you'll get this very
:39:21. > :39:23.interesting, alive kind of effect, where you just move your head
:39:24. > :39:26.slightly from side to side and it creates all these different
:39:27. > :39:28.sort of patterns. Have you tested it, so it
:39:29. > :39:37.won't set cars alight? The panels are all completely flat,
:39:38. > :39:40.so there's no kind of concave So we haven't looked into that,
:39:41. > :39:44.but it doesn't seem to be an issue because there
:39:45. > :39:46.is no lens effect. So we have your word,
:39:47. > :39:49.really, don't we? He's used to people seeing
:39:50. > :40:04.his work in galleries, but now you can clock it
:40:05. > :40:07.from the Blackwall Tunnel approach. It's out of the frying pan
:40:08. > :40:09.into the fire for Shawcross as his chimney puts its mark
:40:10. > :40:14.on the skyline of the big smoke. All over the world, sober media
:40:15. > :40:20.outlets have been pondering today on how to justify their coverage
:40:21. > :40:23.of the break-up of Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt by trying to find some
:40:24. > :40:27.serious theme to connect to it. I'm not going to deny, we've had
:40:28. > :40:30.that discussion ourselves. But we did find this
:40:31. > :40:33.particularly moving. Angelina Jolie speaking
:40:34. > :40:36.about her marriage in November on NBC's Today show,
:40:37. > :40:40.after the release of the movie, In the Sea, which she wrote,
:40:41. > :40:42.directed and starred in along It's about a disintegrating
:40:43. > :40:53.marriage. Well, I think, one, I'm counting
:40:54. > :40:56.on the audience to know that if it was close to us at all,
:40:57. > :41:01.we could never make this film. It's because we're actually
:41:02. > :41:05.very, very stable. I think we have more
:41:06. > :41:07.moments where I say, Just know what you're good at,
:41:08. > :41:17.know what you're not. So yeah, I do have my like, no,
:41:18. > :41:21.no, I'm going to get