:00:00. > :00:10.Or a Rotten Bank for Small businesses?
:00:11. > :00:14.Damning new evidence that RBS penalised distressed firms
:00:15. > :00:16.to make money for itself, ignored warnings of potential
:00:17. > :00:23.conflicts of interest, and mistreated healthy businesses.
:00:24. > :00:31.But there's nothing worse when you know that you're - it sounds really
:00:32. > :00:36.arrogant - you know you're good at what you do. This was, this was 35
:00:37. > :00:37.years of my life and I knew I'd got it right.
:00:38. > :00:41.We'll hear what the bank did, and what we should do in return.
:00:42. > :00:43.Also tonight, we are leaving the EU partly to restore power
:00:44. > :00:49.So should our Parliament not be allowed some say
:00:50. > :00:53.It's a new a battle in the Brexit war.
:00:54. > :00:57.It's not been a good week for clowns.
:00:58. > :01:00.Donald Trump has had his troubles too - but did the debate
:01:01. > :01:13.If I win, I am going to instruct my Attorney-General to get a special
:01:14. > :01:17.prosecutor to look into your situation, because there has never
:01:18. > :01:19.been so many lies, so much deception. There has never been
:01:20. > :01:29.anything like it. To my mind, she's wrong about
:01:30. > :01:36.everything, but she's wrong within the normal parameters of wrong. It's
:01:37. > :01:40.the kind of wrong we've had before. It's a wrong we can endure. With
:01:41. > :01:47.him, who knows. You don't need to get bogged down
:01:48. > :01:52.in the details of the RBS story. RBS lent money to
:01:53. > :01:56.lots of businesses. Some of them had problems -
:01:57. > :02:00.maybe minor, maybe But then a cash-strapped RBS decided
:02:01. > :02:05.to use business distress It would pretend it was there
:02:06. > :02:10.to help the firms, put them into special measures
:02:11. > :02:12.in its supportive turnaround And then, in some cases,
:02:13. > :02:17.it fleeced them, tipping RBS even appeared willing to force
:02:18. > :02:22.perfectly sound companies Now these allegations are not new,
:02:23. > :02:28.but Newsnight and Buzzfeed have obtained a cache of interesting
:02:29. > :02:32.documents the bank did not want Andrew Verity has
:02:33. > :02:46.been through them. It has been another extraordinary
:02:47. > :02:49.day of fast moving developments for Britain's financial world, so with
:02:50. > :02:52.an economy eatering on the edge of recession and a squeeze on other
:02:53. > :02:59.Government spending, where is all the money coming from?
:03:00. > :03:02.2008, overborrowed, overlent and bailed out, RBS was under pressure
:03:03. > :03:07.from its shock new owner, the Government, to get bad debts off the
:03:08. > :03:12.books and boost its depleted cash. A fair goal, perhaps, but it was
:03:13. > :03:17.accused of using foul means to achieve it, looking for ways to trip
:03:18. > :03:21.up business customers so it could drain them of cash and get their
:03:22. > :03:28.assets on the cheap, for a disregard for the owners who created them. RBS
:03:29. > :03:34.furiously denied it. Now there's evidence these highly sensitive RBS
:03:35. > :03:37.documents were leaked by a whistle-blower prompting an
:03:38. > :03:43.investigation by Buzzfeed news and BBC Newsnight. They contain secret
:03:44. > :03:47.information and internal e Mails, showing that while one part of the
:03:48. > :03:51.bank was claiming to help business customers, another part of the bank
:03:52. > :03:55.was collaborating with it, looking to buy up customers' property when
:03:56. > :04:09.they got in trouble and extract maximum economic value. I'm sorry.
:04:10. > :04:19.What I've always held onto is that I - I know what I'm doing. In what one
:04:20. > :04:21.e-mail described as a dash for cash, RBS commercial bank staff could
:04:22. > :04:25.boost their bonuses by scouring their loan books for defaulting
:04:26. > :04:30.customers. Even if they'd never missed a payment, the bank had ways
:04:31. > :04:33.of finding them in default. Imagine your mortgage lender telling you
:04:34. > :04:37.it's revalued your property, the price has dropped and it's now worth
:04:38. > :04:41.too little compared to your loan. Even though you may never have
:04:42. > :04:45.missed a payment, it wants its mortgage money back. Then later you
:04:46. > :04:49.find out that all along it had a property division that wanted to buy
:04:50. > :04:54.your property for a gain. That wouldn't happen with residential
:04:55. > :04:59.mortgages, they're regulated. But it's very much like what happened to
:05:00. > :05:07.many business customers. This was the old back of the shop... Andy
:05:08. > :05:12.Gibbs aan entrepreneur and architect. He made his dream real,
:05:13. > :05:17.designing and building a thriving hub for creative companies. A lot of
:05:18. > :05:23.my work is giving a hand rail to the past... In May 2008 RBS mis-sold him
:05:24. > :05:26.a financial product, supposed to protect against rising interest
:05:27. > :05:29.rates. When rates fell, it started draining cash from the business. The
:05:30. > :05:36.bank's response to his business trouble was to put it in what it
:05:37. > :05:40.says ways turn around division, the global restructuring group, GRG.
:05:41. > :05:43.Then he was told the property had been revalued. It was now worth too
:05:44. > :05:49.little compared to the loan. Tell us about the fees and interest rates.
:05:50. > :05:52.At one stage, I found out that they'd cancelled my professional
:05:53. > :05:56.indemnity insurance premium, which I have to have and could have damaged
:05:57. > :06:00.me professionally. Foreignly I manage -- fortunately, I imagined to
:06:01. > :06:06.sort that without a gap of time. They cancelled small Energy Bills,
:06:07. > :06:13.the smallest one something like 6. ?6.53. It was all the time taking
:06:14. > :06:18.away, taking away the control of what I had which was a beautiful and
:06:19. > :06:24.energetic business really. Andy was warned he may have to sell assets or
:06:25. > :06:28.go into insolvency. He raised more than ?500,000 selling the family
:06:29. > :06:33.homement That money was swallowed up by GRG and it didn't change any
:06:34. > :06:43.course of action whatsoever for a ten month period. So ?500,000 was
:06:44. > :06:48.wasted? ?537,000 completely wasted and the family home gone. GRG wrote
:06:49. > :06:52.demanding repayment of its loan. They continued to support his
:06:53. > :06:56.business if they sold a stake in the business to West Register, the
:06:57. > :07:00.bank's property company. He decloind and within days the bank called in
:07:01. > :07:03.the receivers. He and his staff were thrown out. Andy lost his business,
:07:04. > :07:08.then his health and then his marriage. I'd had a breakdown. At
:07:09. > :07:13.one point, I'd lost four-and-a-half stone in hospital. I didn't actually
:07:14. > :07:28.know when I was going to get out of hospital. What, for you, was the GRG
:07:29. > :07:33.treatment? Sorry... Oh, God. Sorry. What I've always held onto is that I
:07:34. > :07:45.erm...... I'm a good... I know what I'm doing. RBS says it's winding
:07:46. > :07:49.down GRG but agreed business customers are now clubbing together
:07:50. > :07:54.to try and sue the bank. I've spoken to a lot of people and I've heard a
:07:55. > :08:00.lot of stories and I can hear within them a great repetition of the same
:08:01. > :08:03.kinds of activities and actions. These are very unsavoury. These are
:08:04. > :08:08.not the behaviour of a normal banking process to deal with
:08:09. > :08:14.customers in stress. These appear to be the activities of an organisation
:08:15. > :08:20.trying to acquire the assets of people who otherwise seem to have a
:08:21. > :08:24.perfectly solid business. The bank's claimed for years GRG was an
:08:25. > :08:28.intensive care unit to help stricken businesses recover. The documents
:08:29. > :08:31.show that you didn't even have to be distressed. Falling out with the
:08:32. > :08:35.bank or just wanting to leave and bank elsewhere, could mean a
:08:36. > :08:39.referral to GRG. I've not seen one case where the evidence points to
:08:40. > :08:44.the fact that they were artificially distressed to transfer to GRG. It
:08:45. > :08:48.wasn't true. Just because of a break down in relationship with the bank.
:08:49. > :08:53.No, there are a range of factors that point to financial distress. In
:08:54. > :08:58.one e-mail they discuss provoking a default event for a customer. All
:08:59. > :09:03.businesses that were transferred to GRG were in financial difficulty.
:09:04. > :09:09.That's contradicted by an e-mail I have here. Would you look at it? It
:09:10. > :09:16.might enlighten you to your bank's practises. It says they could
:09:17. > :09:20.provoke a default event. This is in relation to GRG customer, provoke a
:09:21. > :09:25.default event. Doesn't that suggest that GRG was engineering defaults?
:09:26. > :09:29.No, look, I've spent two-and-a-half years looking at all the cases in
:09:30. > :09:34.terms of GRG - You don't seem to want to look at this. I know what
:09:35. > :09:39.your document says. You've seen the e-mail? I'm clear - Doesn't that
:09:40. > :09:42.bother you. If you let me finish my answer, I'm really clear in all the
:09:43. > :09:46.evidence I've seen over two-and-a-half years, looking at
:09:47. > :09:54.millions of documents, there was no artificial distressing of businesses
:09:55. > :09:59.to put them to GRG. Alison Loveday a litigation lawyer says RBS goes to
:10:00. > :10:02.great lengths to stifle customers claims of wrongdoing. They were a
:10:03. > :10:07.necessary evil, that's how the bank saw it. They knew most business
:10:08. > :10:11.owners wouldn't have the mental resilience or the finance to be able
:10:12. > :10:16.to challenge them and they were typically acting aloan, so it took a
:10:17. > :10:19.long time for people to realise they weren't the only ones treated like
:10:20. > :10:24.that. Why would the bank behave this way? Well, it could charge customers
:10:25. > :10:28.in its turn around division much higher interest and fees, much of
:10:29. > :10:32.the debt could be written off with a taxpayer supported the bank.
:10:33. > :10:36.Crucially, capital, held against the risk that the loan went bad, could
:10:37. > :10:41.be released, because it already had gone bad. Then there was what the
:10:42. > :10:45.bank called its upside. If it could take a stake in the business or some
:10:46. > :10:50.of its property, when the market bounced back, there should be big
:10:51. > :10:55.gains. The Financial Conduct Authority ordered a report by two
:10:56. > :10:58.firms of consultants checking out the allegations of mistreatment.
:10:59. > :11:01.Nearly three years later, it's completed and with the FCA. The
:11:02. > :11:04.regulator won't say when it will be published.
:11:05. > :11:07.With me now is Andy Keats, a former RBS customer, who,
:11:08. > :11:10.like Andi in the film, has had problems with the bank.
:11:11. > :11:13.Also here is Sir Vince Cable, former Business Secretary,
:11:14. > :11:16.with responsibility for overseeing the regulation of
:11:17. > :11:27.Can I start with you, you represent many of the victims of what we've
:11:28. > :11:31.seen described there, the SME alliances, you're involved with
:11:32. > :11:36.that. How many of the businesses that were dragged into this GRG
:11:37. > :11:42.group, how many were fundamentally bad businesses, had got into trouble
:11:43. > :11:47.or needed help? As you say, I deal with hundreds, we support and
:11:48. > :11:53.investigate hundreds of businesses and I'm one of those businesses
:11:54. > :11:58.myself. It really annoys me actually to hear RBS saying what they've just
:11:59. > :12:03.said that - They say no-one was made a distressed business that wasn't a
:12:04. > :12:09.distressed business. I can tell you categorically that I've dealt with
:12:10. > :12:15.literally tens of businesses myself, investigated them and found that
:12:16. > :12:20.they were honest, proper businesses, properly run, with no defaults, no
:12:21. > :12:24.distress and they were put into GRG just like me. Your case is an
:12:25. > :12:30.interesting one. You weren't put into GRG... I was put into the
:12:31. > :12:35.intensive care exposure committee and I didn't even realise for five
:12:36. > :12:38.years that I was in it. You say that's because you were selling your
:12:39. > :12:43.business and it was going to move the account to Barclays. Then they
:12:44. > :12:49.started cutting up rough basically. We told them we were moving to
:12:50. > :12:56.Barclays and four weeks later we had our merchant account terminated with
:12:57. > :12:59.30 days' notice. They said that we were financially distressed. We were
:13:00. > :13:08.moving to Barclays. Why would they say that? 14 days before that, we'd
:13:09. > :13:11.had an offer for the purchase of the business, after four months of due
:13:12. > :13:16.diligence. What was going on? You lost that offer and you lost the
:13:17. > :13:22.move to Barclays because Barclays said, hang on, RBS has found
:13:23. > :13:27.something dodgy here. Exactly. Then this has got caught up into your
:13:28. > :13:29.personal life as opposed to your business life because now, they're
:13:30. > :13:36.trying to repossess your house. What they did in the business, they then
:13:37. > :13:42.took all my money. So they retained all of my business money until we
:13:43. > :13:46.went bust. After we went bust, I unfortunately had a mortgage with
:13:47. > :13:50.RBS and said to them, what do you want me to do, do you want me to
:13:51. > :13:58.sell. They said no, they didn't want that. Wait until later
:13:59. > :14:03.down-the-line. We entered into more borrowing facilities on the basis
:14:04. > :14:08.that I was a good customer. We have so little time. Basically it ended
:14:09. > :14:14.up with them saying, we're claiming money back from you and we need to
:14:15. > :14:19.repossess the house. They said I was in arrears of ?50,000 when I was in
:14:20. > :14:24.borrowing facilities. They've obviously been playing quite a rough
:14:25. > :14:27.game with a lot of small businesses. What do you see today that you
:14:28. > :14:33.didn't know when you were Business Secretary? Well, I discovered,
:14:34. > :14:37.partly through lots of individual cases, but partly as a result of a
:14:38. > :14:42.report that was done by somebody called Lawrence Tom Lynnson, who I
:14:43. > :14:46.appointed. He collected case material which was exactly the kind
:14:47. > :14:51.you've just heard and is corroborated in your report. The
:14:52. > :14:55.problem we had was that there wasn't a smoking gun. There were a lot of
:14:56. > :14:59.people who had been shot but we couldn't see the evidence within the
:15:00. > :15:03.bank itself. I asked the bank to investigate this properly. They
:15:04. > :15:07.called in Clifford Chance, who as far as I know, did a fairly
:15:08. > :15:11.professional job, that they didn't have access to the material you've
:15:12. > :15:13.now got. Crucially, I asked the regulator, the Financial Conduct
:15:14. > :15:16.Authority, to do a proper investigation. They should have
:15:17. > :15:21.published last year, but they haven't. It's worse than that
:15:22. > :15:27.because I think they started the report back in the third quarter,
:15:28. > :15:31.the end of 2013. And they said it would be ready in the third quarter
:15:32. > :15:38.of 2014. I think we're now in the third quarter of 2016. What is going
:15:39. > :15:44.on? Well, the conspiracy theories or just inefficiency, I don't know.
:15:45. > :15:49.What would the conspiracy theory be? That they're covering tracks from -
:15:50. > :15:53.Why would they cover the tracks of RBS? I don't know. From my point of
:15:54. > :15:56.view, I was the minister who asked them to investigate. I'm very, very
:15:57. > :16:02.disappointed that they haven't published it. Why they haven't
:16:03. > :16:07.published it I don't know. Looking at the documents that we've got,
:16:08. > :16:11.they lock a smoking gun because they are the conversations going on
:16:12. > :16:14.internally. That's what we lacked before. There were a lot of people
:16:15. > :16:19.damaged, there was circumstantial evidence that the bank were
:16:20. > :16:23.profiting from these activities. But the other people would looked at it
:16:24. > :16:27.have hitherto said well there's bad practice, but there's no evidence
:16:28. > :16:35.it's been done systematically. Now this evidence you've acquired,
:16:36. > :16:39.suggests that it may well have been. It is possible, the bank would say,
:16:40. > :16:44.we are just people who are not understanding the game they are in,
:16:45. > :16:50.they are trying to retrieve money for a taxpayer, incidentally, and
:16:51. > :16:54.businesses who are in trouble are probably making the money in fees
:16:55. > :16:57.and interest rates but are losing money on the fact they are writing
:16:58. > :17:02.off chunks of their loan, and they are entitled to say they are going
:17:03. > :17:08.to play hardball and by going to get everything they can? We are talking
:17:09. > :17:12.about events in the aftermath of the financial crisis, there is a long
:17:13. > :17:17.time lag, you are right, they are acting in the interests of the
:17:18. > :17:21.taxpayer and even if they are found at fault, they will be fine, with
:17:22. > :17:26.the taxpayer taking the fine, ludicrous situation. The fact is
:17:27. > :17:30.many thousand companies will have been affected and many people will
:17:31. > :17:33.have been ruined, marriages and mental health will have been
:17:34. > :17:34.affected, and when it has happened on this scale, we cannot let this
:17:35. > :17:39.matter drop. Thanks for joining us. Who in Britain should decide
:17:40. > :17:41.what Brexit looks like? The Government is clear,
:17:42. > :17:44.and it reiterated its position again today in a statement to the Commons:
:17:45. > :17:47.it has to negotiate withdrawal and it has to decide
:17:48. > :17:50.what we negotiate. It says the mandate for Britain
:17:51. > :17:53.to leave the European Union is It also says it doesn't want any
:17:54. > :18:01.kind of obstruction from So get out the way, leave the three
:18:02. > :18:05.Brexiteers and Theresa May to it. But there is another view,
:18:06. > :18:08.which is that Parliament should have the say on what kind
:18:09. > :18:11.of deal we aim for. Now it is mostly Remainers who want
:18:12. > :18:14.that, but not exclusively. This Conservative MP voted to Leave
:18:15. > :18:16.and trenchantly made Nearly half of those who voted
:18:17. > :18:22.wanted no substantive change at all in the relationship
:18:23. > :18:24.between this country Their voices, although they did not
:18:25. > :18:30.chime with my own, appear entirely to have been forgotten
:18:31. > :18:32.in the rhetoric of hard Brexit which has somehow become
:18:33. > :18:34.received wisdom on the part The government has
:18:35. > :18:38.no mandate for that. You cannot extrapolate
:18:39. > :18:42.from the result of the referendum the specific terms upon
:18:43. > :18:45.which the majority of those in this country wish their relations
:18:46. > :18:47.with the European Union And that can only be done by seeking
:18:48. > :18:53.a mandate from this House to which the citizens of this
:18:54. > :18:55.country return honourable members Our political editor,
:18:56. > :19:07.Nick Watt, is with me. Are the government going to stick to
:19:08. > :19:10.this? Very much. That in passionate plea from Stephen Phillips was
:19:11. > :19:13.rebuffed by the speaker on the grounds that the Labour Party is
:19:14. > :19:17.having a debate on this matter on Wednesday, so let them get on with
:19:18. > :19:21.it. Some people were taken by Stephen Phillips who say maybe that
:19:22. > :19:24.is a better option, if he had got his way he would have knocked out
:19:25. > :19:30.the Labour debate and there would have just been a vote on a
:19:31. > :19:33.generalised motion instead. But now with the Labour debate we have a
:19:34. > :19:36.vote afterwards on a specific motion which is likely to call on the
:19:37. > :19:41.government to seek the consent of MPs in Parliament regarding its
:19:42. > :19:44.Brexit negotiations and there are some Labour MPs and a small number
:19:45. > :19:49.of Conservative MPs who said they will maybe defeat the government and
:19:50. > :19:54.that will not use David Davis who had ruled out a vote in parliament
:19:55. > :20:00.on those Article 50 negotiations. It is a non-binding vote on Wednesday.
:20:01. > :20:06.Yes. In terms of the substance of the negotiations, anything we didn't
:20:07. > :20:09.know? David Davis said he would update MPs, and to days word he
:20:10. > :20:14.covered a large piece, you play down the significance of the fall in
:20:15. > :20:18.sterling and he gave a strong indication that in his mind UK would
:20:19. > :20:22.not remain a member of the single market and it would not remain a
:20:23. > :20:25.member of the customs union, but eyebrows were raised when he had a
:20:26. > :20:31.pop at the French president Francois Hollande and Angela Merkel, remember
:20:32. > :20:34.last week Francois Hollande said the UK would have to pay a price for
:20:35. > :20:38.leaving to discourage others and Angela Merkel said if the UK wanted
:20:39. > :20:43.to remain in the single market outside the EU it would have to
:20:44. > :20:46.accept free movement of people. This is what he said in his exchange with
:20:47. > :20:53.Crispin Blunt about Francois Hollande.
:20:54. > :20:55.What plans does he have to publicly to publicly ennumerate
:20:56. > :20:58.the implications of there being no deal at the end of two
:20:59. > :21:05.What I will say to him at this point, is that...
:21:06. > :21:10.If the European Union adheres to a punishment plan and it fails,
:21:11. > :21:12.as I believe it would, then that's an even bigger
:21:13. > :21:15.incentive to countries that want to leave, than a punishment
:21:16. > :21:27.One senior Whitehall source said that by taking on Europe's two most
:21:28. > :21:29.powerful leaders, David Davis was displaying what this person said was
:21:30. > :21:34.an unhelpful swagger. Thank you. Joining me now is the Shadow Foreign
:21:35. > :21:36.Secretary, Emily Thornberry, and Bernard Jenkin, Conservative MP
:21:37. > :21:39.who was one of the leading He also chairs the Commons Public
:21:40. > :21:49.Administration Committee. How would the House of Commons
:21:50. > :21:54.express a view on a complex multidimensional negotiation? What
:21:55. > :21:59.form would that take? It has a commons is not very good at voting
:22:00. > :22:04.for complex things, it is very binary -- the House of Commons. I
:22:05. > :22:07.understand that, but we're getting no information from the government
:22:08. > :22:10.about how it is they are going to negotiate Brexit. We start on the
:22:11. > :22:14.basis that we have instructions on the British people that they want to
:22:15. > :22:17.leave and we want to do our job properly and we want to leave in the
:22:18. > :22:22.best interests of the British people. I don't think this is right.
:22:23. > :22:25.That the Tories have a mandate to go into a locked room and fight it out
:22:26. > :22:29.amongst themselves and then decide which way they are going to leave
:22:30. > :22:32.Europe, it is the future of my children and my grandchildren at
:22:33. > :22:35.stake, the future of the economy and we think the government should come
:22:36. > :22:44.to Parliament and put forward a plan. A plan before they negotiate?
:22:45. > :22:46.Yes. They say they are paying their cards close to their chest because
:22:47. > :22:50.it could undermine their position, but we know they have a load of
:22:51. > :22:53.different ideas for stop what Philip Hammond things is different to what
:22:54. > :22:59.Theresa May things and is different to what Liam Fox things, so on what
:23:00. > :23:04.basis are we going to Europe? And different to what Bernard Jenkin
:23:05. > :23:08.thinks. I'm sure it is. What is the mandate for the government taking
:23:09. > :23:11.this ahead and doing it? The biggest ever vote cast for any single
:23:12. > :23:17.proposition in this country ever, that is the mandate, to leave the
:23:18. > :23:23.EU. The Leave campaign was very clear that leaving the EU meant
:23:24. > :23:26.leaving the single market and the Remain campaign said if you vote to
:23:27. > :23:28.leave we will have to leave the single market, so I don't see why
:23:29. > :23:34.there is any argument about this now. What you are relying on is
:23:35. > :23:40.Michael Gove, on one television programme saying he was... Saying we
:23:41. > :23:45.would have to leave the single market. During the Brexit vote,
:23:46. > :23:48.there was no, it was not clear what the options were, yes, we were going
:23:49. > :23:52.to leave, but there are different ways of leaving the European Union,
:23:53. > :23:57.and those options were not made clear. If you are lying on Michael
:23:58. > :24:01.Gove, remember he is the man whose wife said you are only supposed to
:24:02. > :24:10.blow the doors. He was not even serious in terms of leaving. It is
:24:11. > :24:17.an important point, we are holding the Leave campaign to its promises
:24:18. > :24:25.because they are not giving us 350 in pounds a week for the NHS. -- 300
:24:26. > :24:28.?50 million. Norway is not in the European Union, so that is
:24:29. > :24:33.compatible, if we adopt their model, that would be compatible with the
:24:34. > :24:38.vote? On the question of accountability. Just answer the
:24:39. > :24:46.question. It would be compatible with what the public voted for?
:24:47. > :24:50.Except the Leave campaign said the Norway option would not be our
:24:51. > :24:54.choice and we made that clear, and the Remain campaign said it would be
:24:55. > :25:00.the worst option of all possible worlds, so who was advocating for
:25:01. > :25:03.the Norway option? Nobody. The Swiss model is compatible with what the
:25:04. > :25:09.public voted for, and the Canadian model is compatible. All of these
:25:10. > :25:14.models are compatible. If I can just make my point. If I could make one
:25:15. > :25:18.point about accountability, in the introduction to this discussion, it
:25:19. > :25:22.was pointed at their is a debate on Wednesday and there will be a vote.
:25:23. > :25:25.You could have put down a vote about what kind of Brexit you want, but
:25:26. > :25:35.you are not doing that, you are having a family row about procedure.
:25:36. > :25:43.It is not a family row. -- phoney. Your party is more divided than we
:25:44. > :25:47.were about Brexit. You guys are in government, you have a new leader
:25:48. > :25:50.who is taking a new direction and she did not even stand for
:25:51. > :25:54.leadership herself, she has no manifesto, she has no mandate. It is
:25:55. > :25:57.not clear on what basis you are leaving and it is right for us as
:25:58. > :26:02.the opposition to hold you to account, excuse me. We are saying,
:26:03. > :26:08.tell us what your plan is, we want to have a debate, the British people
:26:09. > :26:10.need to know. You owe it to them. At the moment the government is
:26:11. > :26:15.developing a plan, and when they have a fully fledged band I've no
:26:16. > :26:21.doubt it will be tabled. -- fully fledged plan. The idea is that
:26:22. > :26:25.Parliament will not have a say on that plan. That is not the case,
:26:26. > :26:29.there will be a second reading of the vote in May or June on the
:26:30. > :26:35.repeal Bill. That is not the same point. By that stage you will have
:26:36. > :26:41.triggered Brexit. We need to have it before you triggered Brexit. They
:26:42. > :26:46.are a motion. We need to know on the basis on which you are going into
:26:47. > :26:49.those negotiations, you have two years after triggering Brexit and we
:26:50. > :26:54.want to know the basis on which you are doing it. What is the plan on
:26:55. > :26:58.migration and the continuing relationship with Europe. The single
:26:59. > :27:04.market. I can answer those questions. The Prime Minister made
:27:05. > :27:07.clear in her speech two weeks ago that what migration policy we have
:27:08. > :27:11.as a country after we leave is a matter for the British Parliament,
:27:12. > :27:14.that is a separate matter from taking back control over migration
:27:15. > :27:26.which is not negotiable, end of story. What you think the majority
:27:27. > :27:32.view in would be? -- what do. If you take the spectrum of options, exit
:27:33. > :27:37.options, where would the majority be? The majority in parliament and
:27:38. > :27:41.in the country, I think whether they voted to remain or to leave, did not
:27:42. > :27:49.vote to take someone else's job away, did not vote to undermine the
:27:50. > :27:53.economy, that is the priority. Where do you think the majority in
:27:54. > :27:57.parliament would be? When it becomes clearer what the government is
:27:58. > :28:00.proposing, that is the only practical way forward, and when
:28:01. > :28:02.people understand that there isn't this Armageddon black hole in front
:28:03. > :28:06.of the country, because we are leaving the European Union, the
:28:07. > :28:10.House of Commons will support the position of the government, that is
:28:11. > :28:16.what I think. What ever they come up with they will support. And if they
:28:17. > :28:24.welcome you when put it to a vote, anyway. There are lots of votes. --
:28:25. > :28:31.and if they won't come at you when put it to a vote, anyway. We will
:28:32. > :28:32.come back to this. It is a procedural point, she's arguing. It
:28:33. > :28:38.is about substance. Or a debasement of American
:28:39. > :28:43.democracy? Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump had
:28:44. > :28:45.a messy 90-minute encounter, And if you thought it might be
:28:46. > :28:50.the end of Trump, you were wrong. Mark Urban has been looking
:28:51. > :28:58.at what we learned. Donald Trump went into the second
:28:59. > :29:01.debate after a wretched weekend, where he is demeaning comments about
:29:02. > :29:07.women resulted a one poll putting Hillary Clinton 14 points ahead. She
:29:08. > :29:14.sought to capitalise on her advantage. I said starting back in
:29:15. > :29:19.June that he was not fit to be president and commander-in-chief and
:29:20. > :29:27.many Republicans and independents have said the same thing. What we
:29:28. > :29:33.all saw and heard on Friday was Donald talking about women, what he
:29:34. > :29:40.thinks about women, what he does to women, and he has said that the
:29:41. > :29:45.video doesn't represent who he is. But I think it is clear to anyone
:29:46. > :29:51.who heard it that it represents exactly who he is. With Republican
:29:52. > :29:55.party bigwigs melting away, and facing widespread condemnation,
:29:56. > :29:58.Donald Trump went on to the offensive, fighting on multiple
:29:59. > :30:04.fronts, first off, his attitude to women. He called out Bill Clinton
:30:05. > :30:08.for alleged sexual assaults but also attempted deflection, than Bastin
:30:09. > :30:12.Hillary Clinton for breaching of secrecy laws with her private
:30:13. > :30:17.e-mails -- than Bastin. And covering up afterwards. I did not think I
:30:18. > :30:24.would say this, but I'm going to say this and I hate to say it, but if I
:30:25. > :30:28.went, I am going to instruct my Attorney General to get a special
:30:29. > :30:33.prosecutor to look into your situation, because there has never
:30:34. > :30:35.been so many lies, so much deception, there has never been
:30:36. > :30:41.anything like it, we're going to have a special prosecutor. In this
:30:42. > :30:45.90 minute onslaught Donald Trump interrupted her or the moderator 27
:30:46. > :30:53.times, she interrupted just three times. And at moments she was on the
:30:54. > :30:57.ropes. Nobody wants dizzy Hillary Clinton thrown into a, but they do
:30:58. > :31:02.want to see her held accountable for the e-mails and the foundation and
:31:03. > :31:06.it is the reason why Trump has done so well in this campaign, voters
:31:07. > :31:11.think that he is the only one that would actually hold Washington
:31:12. > :31:16.accountable. As the debate moved past its first half-hour, it allowed
:31:17. > :31:20.Trump to allow a second perceived weakness on policy substance where
:31:21. > :31:24.he tried to make the running on health care tax and foreign affairs.
:31:25. > :31:29.But he ran into problems here, as well, disavowing remarks on Syria by
:31:30. > :31:35.his own vice president shall running mate. He and I haven't spoken and I
:31:36. > :31:40.disagree. You disagree with your running mate? Right now Syria is
:31:41. > :31:48.fighting ices and we have people that want to fight both at the
:31:49. > :31:52.signed time. -- Isis. The sensor disarray means he hasn't done enough
:31:53. > :31:56.to reassure the party grandees who now wonder if they should let him
:31:57. > :32:00.hang out to dry. I'm not sure if they would publicly abandon him,
:32:01. > :32:04.that would probably impact the down ticket just as badly so they are
:32:05. > :32:10.trying to figure out the way they can triage the situation. As the
:32:11. > :32:14.house bigger told its members, it is important to find out what is
:32:15. > :32:17.important in your district. He is not going to defend Donald Trump,
:32:18. > :32:19.but they do not think abandoning the nominee is going to get Republicans
:32:20. > :32:29.to the polls. Here Trump has shown contempt for
:32:30. > :32:33.the GOP elite, may delight his base but it could hurt him on polling
:32:34. > :32:36.day. I definitely think it hurts him. There's no question about it.
:32:37. > :32:41.He needs to have as many people supporting him as possible. The
:32:42. > :32:44.truth is Donald Trump is never really been a Republican in my view.
:32:45. > :32:48.He's an independent. He's always really been an independent. After
:32:49. > :32:52.nearly 90 minutes of slugging it out. They were asked to name one
:32:53. > :32:59.thing they admired about the other. Hillary went first. Iery inspect his
:33:00. > :33:03.children -- I respect his children. His children are incredibly able and
:33:04. > :33:10.devoted and I think that says a lot about don oold. That hit Trump where
:33:11. > :33:14.it hurts, with his lamentable attempts to improve his image with
:33:15. > :33:18.women, where after the last few days, he has further to go than
:33:19. > :33:22.ever. I don't believe he will have improved among women. His apology
:33:23. > :33:27.wasn't well received. The comments that he made really bothered women
:33:28. > :33:30.in particular. And frankly, in that debate, Hillary Clinton has run as a
:33:31. > :33:35.champion of women. That's going to do well for her. What I do see
:33:36. > :33:39.happening is that Trump continues to improve among men. You've got the
:33:40. > :33:45.biggest gender gap in the history of American politics. Good night
:33:46. > :33:49.everyone. The debate hardly revived Trump's fortune, but it did
:33:50. > :33:52.supporters argue, show his refusal to buckle under pressure.
:33:53. > :33:55.Well, this is clearly no ordinary election and Mr Trump does
:33:56. > :33:58.not have the support of many natural Republicans.
:33:59. > :34:03.He's in the UK at the moment, speaking at an Intelligence Squared
:34:04. > :34:08.He has declared his support for Hillary -
:34:09. > :34:13.I spoke to him earlier today, so does he think Donald Trump's
:34:14. > :34:24.I would say yes, but I've been absolutely wrong
:34:25. > :34:30.And so I think I may hex it if I just said yes.
:34:31. > :34:36.Before this latest revelation of the inner Trump.
:34:37. > :34:43.He was already slipping in the polls.
:34:44. > :34:46.Now the thing to keep one's fingers across is, Hillary has
:34:47. > :34:51.the electoral maths on her side, and yet she remains dependent
:34:52. > :34:57.on groups of voters who are famous for not voting.
:34:58. > :35:00.So, will she be able to get them out?
:35:01. > :35:02.Of course, he's doing everything he can to help.
:35:03. > :35:07.So my guess is, yes, I don't think his campaign is viable.
:35:08. > :35:09.What portion of good college educated, professional
:35:10. > :35:21.Generally speaking when pressed they will say, well,
:35:22. > :35:23.he was my 18th choice for Republican candidate.
:35:24. > :35:27.An office like the Presidency of the United States has to have
:35:28. > :35:33.It is to the point for me, simply, that I would rather have
:35:34. > :35:37.someone whose judgment I don't think greatly of and whose character
:35:38. > :35:49.To my mind she is wrong about everything, but she is
:35:50. > :35:52.wrong within the normal parameters of wrong.
:35:53. > :35:56.It's a kind of wrong we've had before.
:35:57. > :36:12.And I think a phenomenal like Trump is part of an underlying frustration
:36:13. > :36:21.That has shown itself in all sorts of populist outbreaks
:36:22. > :36:27.Trump, a rather comic version of that.
:36:28. > :36:38.And if you want truly tragic, Vladimir Putin, too, is a populist.
:36:39. > :36:40.And Brexit is a sort of example of it.
:36:41. > :36:43.So is the rejection by the Colombians
:36:44. > :36:49.So, you know, to what extent it is a comfort
:36:50. > :36:59.What do you think of the Republican establishment?
:37:00. > :37:03.Is there anything they could have done to stop him?
:37:04. > :37:06.And a lot of them lined up to endorse him but were then
:37:07. > :37:10.apparently shocked at this tape of sexual predatorship.
:37:11. > :37:13.Did you find anything surprising in that tape?
:37:14. > :37:15.Did you get a new insight into the real character
:37:16. > :37:24.To be perfectly fair to Donald Trump, it was a weak field.
:37:25. > :37:27.It may have looked good from afar but in point of fact
:37:28. > :37:31.each of the candidates turned out to be lukewarm.
:37:32. > :37:39.Dividing up the good sense vote, and leaving the poor sense vote
:37:40. > :37:47.Then, not universally, but they lined up pretty quickly
:37:48. > :37:54.to endorse him and then did Rick from Casablanca.
:37:55. > :38:00.That this man should say those things.
:38:01. > :38:02.Do you think impartial broadcasters and impartial newspapers should try
:38:03. > :38:06.and cover this election in the way they would normally cover
:38:07. > :38:09.an election between two candidates?
:38:10. > :38:18.I think we just have to endeavour to do our best,
:38:19. > :38:21.to find the best obtainable version of the truth.
:38:22. > :38:25.To keep a straight face through some of this,
:38:26. > :38:32.Would you use the phrase American politics is broken?
:38:33. > :38:36.It's always had difficulties, hasn't it?
:38:37. > :38:44.Are we in a particularly silly moment?
:38:45. > :38:48.And is there danger in that silliness?
:38:49. > :38:50.All of the above, yes. But, you know, democracy is always
:38:51. > :38:54.It's a scary way to govern ourselves.
:38:55. > :38:57.And the scariest part of it all of course being the famous
:38:58. > :39:01.Churchill quote," it's worse than everything except everything
:39:02. > :39:10.So, don't want to fall off that tightrope.
:39:11. > :39:22.Now, you may have been following the rather worrying spate of people
:39:23. > :39:25.dressed as knife-wielding clowns, terrifying unsuspecting punters
:39:26. > :39:30.here's and abroad. The traditional view of the happy or at least sad
:39:31. > :39:35.clown seems to have been consigned to history's rubbish bin. We've
:39:36. > :39:38.tried to pin point the exact moment when clowns became irredeemably
:39:39. > :39:46.scary for this generation. Our best guess is this: From the adaptation
:39:47. > :39:51.of Stephen King's It from 1990. If you're afraid of clowns, look away
:39:52. > :39:59.now. Good night. Come on up Richie. I've got a balloon for you. Don't
:40:00. > :40:13.you want a balloon? What's the matter, one balloon not enough? Try
:40:14. > :40:20.a bunch! LAUGHTER