:00:00. > :00:00.How well do you, how well do we understand modern Russia
:00:00. > :00:08.and its ambitions in Syria and beyond?
:00:09. > :00:13.In view of the ruthless and brutal behaviour of the Russians
:00:14. > :00:20.it cannot be business as usual with Russia.
:00:21. > :00:25.The relationship that Britain has with Russia,
:00:26. > :00:27.the European Union has with Russia, the relationship I hope
:00:28. > :00:31.that Australia has with Russia, will be very different.
:00:32. > :00:32.He'd rather believe Vladimir Putin
:00:33. > :00:34.than the military and civilian intelligence
:00:35. > :00:36.professionals who are sworn to protect us.
:00:37. > :00:39.She doesn't like Putin because Putin has outsmarted her
:00:40. > :00:47.Russia and the regime owe the world more than an explanation
:00:48. > :00:49.about why they keep hitting hospitals and medical
:00:50. > :01:04.And we will never recognise Russia's illegal occupation of Crimea,
:01:05. > :01:17.That's the view of Russia most of us recognise.
:01:18. > :01:20.Tonight, we take a close look at how the world looks to the Russians,
:01:21. > :01:23.how they view themselves, Syria and us.
:01:24. > :01:29.It is the story of a new cold-ish war.
:01:30. > :01:31.Also tonight, we will be looking at...
:01:32. > :01:32.The politics of Heathrow expansion, an extraordinary argument
:01:33. > :01:37.and a strange Danish practice involving cinnamon buns
:01:38. > :01:42.But as I say, we start with Russia and the west.
:01:43. > :01:44.You can't avoid it - from geopolitical headaches
:01:45. > :01:50.to the hacking of American politicians,
:01:51. > :01:52.Russian warships in the channel, arguments over a British bank
:01:53. > :01:55.trying to close the account of the state TV network RT,
:01:56. > :02:00.In all these disputatious areas, you can criticise behaviour
:02:01. > :02:03.of the west or in the west, and we do.
:02:04. > :02:06.But many have a deeper instinctive distrust of Russia
:02:07. > :02:11.Which makes it all the more important for us to understand
:02:12. > :02:14.what they are being told and what they think.
:02:15. > :02:17.And worryingly, the rhetoric there is heating up.
:02:18. > :02:19.For example, the Russians have released images
:02:20. > :02:25.of the new Satan 2 nuclear missile, said to be powerful enough
:02:26. > :02:28.Gabriel Gatehouse is in Moscow for us,
:02:29. > :02:31.trying to get into the Russian psyche.
:02:32. > :02:45.Good evening. What is remarkable being here is how people view
:02:46. > :02:49.diametrically differently all of the topics that you heard those
:02:50. > :02:54.politicians remarking upon in your introduction. Take, for example, the
:02:55. > :02:56.very negative treatment, as they see it here, of Russia in the US
:02:57. > :03:03.presidential election. Because the allegations of hacking
:03:04. > :03:11.don't get much coverage here, this is genuinely seen as Russophobia
:03:12. > :03:14.both by the people and by the Kremlin and they see that as both
:03:15. > :03:17.worrying and encouraging, worrying because they don't want to be
:03:18. > :03:21.isolated, but encouraging because they feel the world is taking notice
:03:22. > :03:25.of Russia. So what you see here is people being able to take two
:03:26. > :03:29.diametrically opposed views of one situation and accommodate them at
:03:30. > :03:33.the same time. And as you said, the anti-Western rhetoric on television
:03:34. > :03:34.in particular is heating up at the same time, and that is certainly
:03:35. > :03:39.having an effect. Something in the way it
:03:40. > :03:47.projects itself abroad. That is the question
:03:48. > :03:55.of who rules the world. And in the way the people view
:03:56. > :04:00.themselves. Russian civilisation is a culture
:04:01. > :04:05.of heroes and warriors. There is a battle going on here
:04:06. > :04:09.for the soul of this country. We have our special Russian truth
:04:10. > :04:14.that you need to accept. And for the very concept
:04:15. > :04:25.of what is real and what is not. since I first started coming
:04:26. > :04:31.here in the mid-1990s, when the streets were crammed
:04:32. > :04:34.with battered Ladas and for most people, foreign travel
:04:35. > :04:37.was a distant dream. Even as life has become more
:04:38. > :04:43.westernised, so more and more people seem to be turning their backs
:04:44. > :04:47.on the West. Or at least, their government
:04:48. > :04:49.is trying hard to push them Recently, state-controlled TV
:04:50. > :05:02.beamed these pictures into the nation's living
:05:03. > :05:08.rooms, in preparation for
:05:09. > :05:14.possible nuclear war. "Locate your nearest bomb shelter
:05:15. > :05:17.now", the presenter says, The spectre of war casts
:05:18. > :05:26.a long shadow over Russia. nearly half a million people lie
:05:27. > :05:32.buried in this cemetery alone. who saved the Soviet
:05:33. > :05:53.Union from destruction. Valentina Nikolaevna is too young
:05:54. > :05:56.to remember the war herself, but she remembers only too well how
:05:57. > :06:00.the Soviet Union collapsed, And she knows who she
:06:01. > :06:25.thinks is to blame. The war in Syria, the conflict
:06:26. > :06:27.in Ukraine, these are seen
:06:28. > :06:29.very differently here. State-controlled TV feeds viewers
:06:30. > :06:35.a diet of war and crisis abroad, in which the West
:06:36. > :06:41.is cast as the aggressor. Now the news bulletins
:06:42. > :06:43.are talking about the prospect something unthinkable
:06:44. > :06:49.since the end of the Cold War. In St Petersburg, officials have
:06:50. > :06:54.drawn up plans for bread rationing. Few are taking this seriously.
:06:55. > :06:58.No one is stockpiling food. But the siege of Leningrad is seared
:06:59. > :07:07.into the folk memory of this city. Svetlana Bogdanova keeps a memento
:07:08. > :07:11.of those dark, hungry days 125 grams of bread, a day's ration,
:07:12. > :07:23.saved by her grandfather in 1942. Talk of rationing today
:07:24. > :07:26.is nonsense, Svetlana says. But still, it has a psychological
:07:27. > :07:55.effect. For centuries, Russia has wrestled
:07:56. > :07:58.with an existential question - The collapse of the Soviet Union
:07:59. > :08:04.was not, it turned out, Underneath the trappings
:08:05. > :08:10.of a capitalist economy, Western-style liberalism has
:08:11. > :08:16.struggled to take root. In Russia, things are not always
:08:17. > :08:23.entirely what they seem. Students go paintballing
:08:24. > :08:26.at the weekend. It's organised by an opposition
:08:27. > :08:29.party. But the party in question is in fact
:08:30. > :08:35.loyal to the Kremlin. And paintballing is part of a wider
:08:36. > :08:39.government-approved programme We have a wide range
:08:40. > :08:50.of military activities. Some of them involve knife
:08:51. > :08:55.combat, knife throwing. where we go to shooting ranges
:08:56. > :09:05.sometimes or military encampments When you watch Russian television,
:09:06. > :09:10.it seems like people are preparing for some kind of confrontation
:09:11. > :09:11.with the West. We are preparing for
:09:12. > :09:19.confrontation with the West. But more, this confrontation happens
:09:20. > :09:24.on a cultural and information level. But this warrior spirit
:09:25. > :09:26.is one of the principles Russian civilisation is a culture
:09:27. > :09:29.of heroes and warriors, so it's a culture of warfare
:09:30. > :09:32.whether we like it or not. 20 years ago, when I first came
:09:33. > :09:35.to Russia, it seemed like people You're absolutely right,
:09:36. > :09:39.and it didn't do us any good. And in our great country,
:09:40. > :09:46.the result is warfare and open conflict because we have started
:09:47. > :09:49.to love different people. Do you think it's really possible,
:09:50. > :09:51.I mean, you're training is it possible that that could ever
:09:52. > :09:58.be used in a conflict with the West? Now there are a lot of conflicts
:09:59. > :10:06.with Ukraine and other people. Me and my comrades and unfortunately
:10:07. > :10:09.even some others have taken part. It's a conflict between
:10:10. > :10:14.Russia and the West. The Ukrainian army has western
:10:15. > :10:16.equipment, Western weapons None of the students we spoke
:10:17. > :10:27.to said they were volunteering They're in their late teens,
:10:28. > :10:34.early twenties, all of them born in the post-Soviet period,
:10:35. > :10:38.and they seemed unconvinced by the talk on TV of
:10:39. > :11:28.a looming conflict. Almost as soon as he came to power,
:11:29. > :11:31.Putin began taking control What you see on television today
:11:32. > :11:39.is either sanctioned Truth has become subordinate
:11:40. > :11:53.to political expediency. To support this difficult balancing
:11:54. > :11:56.act, an entire philosophical
:11:57. > :12:00.framework has been constructed. One of its chief architects
:12:01. > :12:04.is Aleksandr Dugin, thinker and ideologue who is under US
:12:05. > :12:07.sanctions for his alleged involvement in Russia's
:12:08. > :12:08.annexation of Crimea The truth is the question of belief,
:12:09. > :12:19.and post-modernity shows that every so-called truth
:12:20. > :12:23.is a matter of believing. and that is the only way
:12:24. > :12:34.to define the truth. that you need to accept as something
:12:35. > :12:46.that is maybe not your truth. that doesn't mean that
:12:47. > :12:54.truth doesn't exist. Dugin's philosophy is
:12:55. > :12:57.known as Eurasianism. It holds that Orthodox Russia
:12:58. > :13:02.is neither East nor West, but a separate and unique
:13:03. > :13:05.civilisation, a civilisation engaged in a battle for its rightful
:13:06. > :13:10.place among world powers. His work has become increasingly
:13:11. > :13:12.influential among Russia's If the United States doesn't
:13:13. > :13:20.want to start a war, you should recognise,
:13:21. > :13:23.the United States should recognise openly for all humanity,
:13:24. > :13:32.all mankind, that the United States The situation in Syria,
:13:33. > :13:41.Ukraine and anywhere else, So Ukraine and Syria
:13:42. > :13:46.are all about proving to America And Russia says no,
:13:47. > :13:51.you are not boss. and if behind us there is nuclear
:13:52. > :14:08.weapons and an iron will to defend, for example, the little case
:14:09. > :14:15.of Assad, defend Assad, it is principally not because we
:14:16. > :14:18.have so much interest there. That is the question
:14:19. > :14:20.of who rules the world. Dugin's bellicose doublethink is not
:14:21. > :14:35.aimed solely at the West. There is a message for internal
:14:36. > :14:39.consumption too, and it is this. There's no such thing
:14:40. > :14:48.as liberal values. There's no such thing
:14:49. > :14:50.as universal liberal values. There is no inherent contradiction
:14:51. > :14:52.in a democracy In the shadow of the walls
:14:53. > :14:57.of the Kremlin, Russia's dwindling band of activists keep alive
:14:58. > :15:00.the memory of Boris Nemtsov, the opposition politician
:15:01. > :15:02.who was gunned down Most Russians don't really
:15:03. > :15:39.believe that nuclear war Perhaps their leaders
:15:40. > :15:43.don't believe it either. But then they probably don't really
:15:44. > :15:45.believe But the more the lie is repeated,
:15:46. > :15:55.the more it risks morphing To unpick some of these issues, I've
:15:56. > :16:22.been speaking to two Russians. Let me start by asking you,
:16:23. > :16:24.do people generally believe On the one hand, people absolutely
:16:25. > :16:31.believe what they are told. They believe that state channels
:16:32. > :16:41.transmit the official position, On the other hand, they are not
:16:42. > :16:45.looking for news as such. They are looking to decipher
:16:46. > :16:48.the system of signals. Who is on air today
:16:49. > :16:50.and who was yesterday? What set of terms is being used
:16:51. > :16:52.this season as opposed
:16:53. > :16:53.to the previous season? What is the intonation,
:16:54. > :16:56.what is the choice of words? All this is important to understand
:16:57. > :16:58.because it prophesies when it comes to events like events
:16:59. > :17:08.in Syria and Ukraine, from the way we see them
:17:09. > :17:21.in the West, don't they? The Ukrainian war was considered
:17:22. > :17:23.as a defensive war here, not just by the Kremlin,
:17:24. > :17:26.but by the population as well. Whatever happens in Ukraine
:17:27. > :17:28.is considered to be an intrusion So something that for outsiders
:17:29. > :17:36.is like an aggression, and by international
:17:37. > :17:44.standards it is, for
:17:45. > :17:46.the Russians here is a defence. The external audience
:17:47. > :17:53.is obviously the West, and the West is certainly sitting
:17:54. > :17:57.up and taking notice. Is this the effect that the Kremlin
:17:58. > :18:02.wants to have? The external audience is not only
:18:03. > :18:05.the West, And that is a more important
:18:06. > :18:10.audience outside Russia than the West, because the West
:18:11. > :18:13.is considered to be lost You never will please
:18:14. > :18:26.them, so stop trying. What is important is to show
:18:27. > :18:32.that we are powerful to
:18:33. > :18:39.the rising, huge developing world, consisting of China,
:18:40. > :18:40.India, Latin America, It seems clear that the Kremlin no
:18:41. > :18:48.longer looks to the west or Western liberalism
:18:49. > :18:49.is an inspiration. But is it also dead
:18:50. > :18:56.in Russian society? those that would name
:18:57. > :19:03.themselves liberals, those that would name
:19:04. > :19:08.themselves Orthodox Christian, this low level of trust, this low
:19:09. > :19:18.level of belief in the future, this attempt to rather keep
:19:19. > :19:20.by the devil you know than trust
:19:21. > :19:22.to the devil you do not know. You mentioned the projection
:19:23. > :19:25.of strength abroad. There is a projection of strength
:19:26. > :19:27.abroad, but in their core
:19:28. > :19:29.they are very uncertain. because there are so many
:19:30. > :19:35.issues resolved. The first one is the
:19:36. > :19:42.transition of power. There is no system
:19:43. > :19:49.beyond one person. It's more personal
:19:50. > :19:52.than in Soviet times. based on the experience
:19:53. > :19:59.of the 20th century, that by changing something,
:20:00. > :20:01.you destroy the country, because they tried it several times
:20:02. > :20:06.and every time they tried to move the system from this quasi-monarchy,
:20:07. > :20:11.they lost the country. So the good idea seems to be
:20:12. > :20:15.to try to make the time stop somehow and to meanwhile distract attention
:20:16. > :20:19.by following adventures in places. This is Russian conservatism,
:20:20. > :20:22.it is not the natural conservatism of a smoothly moving society
:20:23. > :20:27.like the British one. It's not a real love for the past,
:20:28. > :20:37.it's a fear of the future, exactly. It was a long time coming,
:20:38. > :20:53.but by the time it came today it seemed like we knew it already:
:20:54. > :20:56.Heathrow is the Government's choice Our political editor Nick Watt
:20:57. > :21:07.is with me to chew it over briefly. A momentous day. Theresa May is very
:21:08. > :21:11.proud and has taken just under four months what her eight predecessors
:21:12. > :21:14.failed to do in 40 years, but beyond that we did learn two interesting
:21:15. > :21:19.things. Some eyebrows were raised when Chris Grayling declined in his
:21:20. > :21:25.opening statement to repeat a very clear statement on his department
:21:26. > :21:30.website which is the private sector would pave airport expansion. He did
:21:31. > :21:37.say to Ireland MP that it would, and in his opening statement he was
:21:38. > :21:42.cautious, and I understand there are some confusion is over what is
:21:43. > :21:52.called surface costs, the better road and public transport structures
:21:53. > :21:55.into Heathrow. Where they benefit passengers, that is the Heathrow to
:21:56. > :21:58.pay, but where they benefit the wider economy, should that be for
:21:59. > :22:02.the Government to pay? But the Government is going out of its way
:22:03. > :22:05.to make sure it would be very difficult to mount a judicial case
:22:06. > :22:10.against them. They have given themselves until the end of February
:22:11. > :22:13.2018 to have the parliamentary vote which would formally allow this to
:22:14. > :22:19.happen. I understand that David Cameron's government was working on
:22:20. > :22:23.the basis of giving themselves six months, so they are following proper
:22:24. > :22:27.procedure. Thank you very much indeed.
:22:28. > :22:29.When it comes to the interlinked crises so absorbing us
:22:30. > :22:32.Isis, Iraq and Europe's migrant problem,
:22:33. > :22:33.Turkey is a country that looms large.
:22:34. > :22:35.But it is weirdly capable of simultaneously sometimes
:22:36. > :22:37.being seen as a solution, and almost as often
:22:38. > :22:44.it was the country that let migrants sail in precarious crafts to Greece,
:22:45. > :22:46.but it was also the country to then stop them,
:22:47. > :22:49.and indeed one that bears more than its fair share of the task
:22:50. > :22:54.In the fight against Isis, it has been on the right side,
:22:55. > :22:55.but it's also frankly complicated the situation
:22:56. > :22:57.with its hatred of the Kurdish fighters who seem
:22:58. > :23:03.Right now, concern over the problematic aspects of Turkey
:23:04. > :23:04.are being magnified by President Erdogan's brand
:23:05. > :23:13.perhaps comparable to that of President Putin.
:23:14. > :23:18.Erdogan has recently been suggesting that Turkey is too small,
:23:19. > :23:20.that the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne that sets its borders
:23:21. > :23:23.And just today, the Turkish foreign minister
:23:24. > :24:14.ratcheted up tensions even further.
:24:15. > :24:35.formerly a minister in Mr Erdogan's government,
:24:36. > :24:43.for sure. We are fighting against Isil in that region, in Syria, in
:24:44. > :24:51.Iraq. I will come to that, but wider is President Erdogan keep talking
:24:52. > :25:01.about the Treaty of Lausanne? You accept the Treaty of 1923? It is the
:25:02. > :25:05.Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 that was the condition, the historical
:25:06. > :25:24.condition of that time. That is what President Erdogan referred to. In
:25:25. > :25:31.the case of Mosul and Kirkuk. Then later the developments in the region
:25:32. > :25:36.went differently, but we are happy with our borders. So it is just
:25:37. > :25:41.historic talk, it is not crazy talk about... Turkish TV has been showing
:25:42. > :25:46.maps showing Turkey as a bigger country. It is the history. When
:25:47. > :25:53.they are coming to that issue, you can talk to other countries, for
:25:54. > :26:00.example Great Britain. Yes, we had a lot of countries. It is not an issue
:26:01. > :26:07.of history, it is the issue of today that we face the terrorism, we face
:26:08. > :26:23.the Isil, we face the PKK terrorism, the fatwa organisation. And we are
:26:24. > :26:29.trying to fight against a military coup, the bloodiest one that they
:26:30. > :26:35.face, and today, the Turkish army is ready to be a part of a coalition in
:26:36. > :26:39.fighting against Isil. This is very important, because of course Iraq
:26:40. > :26:48.has asked you to remove your troops from by Chic airbase. They think you
:26:49. > :26:53.are making it complicated in the fights for Mosul. Why don't you
:26:54. > :27:00.remove them? Simply because Turkey has come in in support of Turkish
:27:01. > :27:08.regional authority and government to train the Peshmerga forces who are
:27:09. > :27:19.fighting against Isil. Because with that training, 3500 people,
:27:20. > :27:27.Peshmergas, who are actively taking place in fighting against Isil, and
:27:28. > :27:34.that is why we are here. The second reason is that it is an issue of our
:27:35. > :27:40.security. What about Iraq's sovereignty? They
:27:41. > :27:44.want you to remove them and you are saying no. But there are 60
:27:45. > :27:56.countries, different countries, forces, there, and we speak and it
:27:57. > :28:01.was the admission of the government and of course the regional
:28:02. > :28:10.government of the Kurdish authorities that we are with their
:28:11. > :28:20.permission, and there invitation... But not the Iraqis. President
:28:21. > :28:27.Erdogan has spoken of helping our Sunni brothers. It is a very tribal
:28:28. > :28:38.way to look at it. If you look at the case of Mosul, where we have 1.8
:28:39. > :28:44.million people, mostly they are Sunnis. But it is not your job...
:28:45. > :28:54.But it is our border, and to remember who faces migration from
:28:55. > :28:58.Syria. 3.5 million of minors from Syria are hosted by Turkey. It is
:28:59. > :29:05.not by our allies and other countries in Europe. I understand
:29:06. > :29:12.that. I mentioned that. So we do not want to face another 1 million
:29:13. > :29:21.migrants from Mosul. That is the issue. I understand. We understand
:29:22. > :29:39.your argument. We have another case of Tel Sun, which has 400,000
:29:40. > :29:44.people, 200,000 of which are Sunni. Can you see with all the talk about
:29:45. > :29:48.the Lausanne Treaty, with refusing to take your troops out of Iraq even
:29:49. > :29:54.though they ask you to, and with 70,000 people arrested, people say
:29:55. > :30:01.this country has now got a dictator not a president. It is an absolute
:30:02. > :30:09.nonsense, because everything is done under the observation of the rule of
:30:10. > :30:20.law, and we will observe the rule of law from now on as well. We face the
:30:21. > :30:26.bloodiest military coup, 241 people innocent. I would love to talk to
:30:27. > :30:31.you much more about this, but I'm afraid we are out of time. We have
:30:32. > :30:34.to clean up... We could talk about this a lot more. Thank you very much
:30:35. > :30:37.indeed. Thank you. As the nights draw in,
:30:38. > :30:39.our thoughts turn to Denmark, the small, light-starved country
:30:40. > :30:41.which inexplicably tops the polls Some put that down to the exhaustive
:30:42. > :30:45.welfare system that Danish people seem content to pay
:30:46. > :30:47.for in their taxes. Others think it's just
:30:48. > :30:49.because they're too conformist But perhaps the answer
:30:50. > :30:54.lies in a national gift for a cosy togetherness
:30:55. > :30:57.that is known as "hygge". I confess that, other
:30:58. > :31:02.than being told that it involves cinnamon buns and candles, I have no
:31:03. > :31:06.idea whatsoever what hygge is. But that is why we employ
:31:07. > :31:09.Stephen Smith, to explain # Girl, your
:31:10. > :31:27.sweetness is my weakness... "Hooga", "hewga", let's call
:31:28. > :31:44.the whole thing off. However you pronounce
:31:45. > :31:46.it, the H word is part and
:31:47. > :31:50.it's coming to a sofa near you. Hygge is nothing if not homely,
:31:51. > :32:00.so we stayed at home. at this handsome Scandi
:32:01. > :32:08.furnishing store, You should have your
:32:09. > :32:17.own cartoon series. My dad is actually called
:32:18. > :32:21.Wolf Viking, and I have a
:32:22. > :32:23.nephew called Max Viking. It's a good job you
:32:24. > :32:26.can grow facial hair The ingredients are togetherness,
:32:27. > :32:38.good lighting, relaxation, indulgence, savouring simple
:32:39. > :32:41.pleasures, gratefulness. Can it catch on here,
:32:42. > :32:43.do you think? I think in many ways,
:32:44. > :32:46.it already has. and I also see a lot of Brits
:32:47. > :32:53.embracing it, so I like to think We found these happy hygges
:32:54. > :33:15.at an event in London. So what has this fad
:33:16. > :33:18.got going for it? British people are really
:33:19. > :33:21.good at hygge anyway. Down the pub, open
:33:22. > :33:28.fire, glass of wine. I think it's because we're
:33:29. > :33:30.all longing to take that kind of
:33:31. > :33:32.break, take time out. I guess hygge is also about healthy
:33:33. > :33:34.hedonism, the idea that you can
:33:35. > :33:36.have a drink or a whiskey. People are tired of these
:33:37. > :33:39.extreme diets and fads. Everyone is so guilty
:33:40. > :33:42.about what they eat and drink. Meik Wiking also runs
:33:43. > :33:59.the Danish Institute of Happiness, a job he gave himself
:34:00. > :34:02.when he set the thing up. All the Nordic countries do well,
:34:03. > :34:05.Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland. They are always at the top
:34:06. > :34:08.of the World Happiness Report. But we couldn't explain why
:34:09. > :34:10.Denmark does well. We think that the hygge culture,
:34:11. > :34:16.the focus on pleasure and comfort on a daily basis,
:34:17. > :34:21.could be part of that explanation. But doesn't Meik ever want to stop
:34:22. > :34:23.being so darn cosy You know what I mean, though,
:34:24. > :34:27.don't you? We have nice lighting
:34:28. > :34:34.and cinnamon buns. I just thought you might get
:34:35. > :34:41.fed up of it and want something a bit more,
:34:42. > :34:46.you know, raw and visceral. Even bleak Scandi dramas with a high
:34:47. > :34:57.body count It was time for me to give the Danes
:34:58. > :35:03.a version of the famous Orson Welles speech
:35:04. > :35:13.from The Third Man. The Brits have had civil war,
:35:14. > :35:16.we've had these two upheavals here, but we've
:35:17. > :35:18.produced Shakespeare, The Danes have this lovely,
:35:19. > :35:21.chilled out lifestyle and you've
:35:22. > :35:24.produced the cinnamon bun. But we also see that happier
:35:25. > :35:45.employees are on average more productive, less
:35:46. > :35:48.sick, more creative. This Christmas, yes,
:35:49. > :35:53.I said Christmas - I guess we are a bit clearer about
:35:54. > :36:06.what it is. On the surface, it seems to be
:36:07. > :36:09.an argument about theatre lighting, but it's also being portrayed
:36:10. > :36:12.as another battle in She hasn't even been artistic
:36:13. > :36:16.director of the Globe Theatre in London for a year,
:36:17. > :36:18.and they've already There were grumbles at her desire
:36:19. > :36:21.to use fancy lighting in the replica Elizabethan theatre -
:36:22. > :36:24.not the done thing Others say it's angry white men
:36:25. > :36:27.with no imagination, forcing out a creative
:36:28. > :36:31.and progressive woman. Well, this is Emma Rice's
:36:32. > :36:36.eyebrow-raising style. I'm Emma Rice, and in April,
:36:37. > :36:41.I become the third artistic director It's been an incredible few months,
:36:42. > :36:45.and I'm very excited Joining me now are Tanika Gupta,
:36:46. > :37:19.who is a playwright and member of the creative cabinet
:37:20. > :37:21.at the Globe Theatre, and Sohrab Ahmari,
:37:22. > :37:34.a Wall Street Journal Tanika Gupta, what do you know about
:37:35. > :37:39.what has gone wrong here? As far as I am aware, it is not about lighting
:37:40. > :37:44.and sound. It is about artistic integrity. Ultimately, the board did
:37:45. > :37:50.not support Emma, which is completely surprising because they
:37:51. > :37:55.applauded her only six months ago. This is what everyone is so
:37:56. > :38:01.distraught and disappointed about. So she is a loss to the Globe?
:38:02. > :38:03.Absolutely. She's the most extraordinary director,
:38:04. > :38:04.one-of-a-kind, and she is hugely respected both by artists and other
:38:05. > :38:14.directors. And was she pushed because she was a
:38:15. > :38:19.woman? Some say she would never have been attacked if she was a man. Was
:38:20. > :38:26.she radical, or was it the lighting? It was old versus new, young versus
:38:27. > :38:29.old, and it was extremely disappointing. A lot of women
:38:30. > :38:33.artists are furious and are saying this was the pushing out of an
:38:34. > :38:39.extraordinary woman which should not have happened. Someone said this the
:38:40. > :38:43.Brexit of the theatre world. The two, you are not a fan. Tell me why
:38:44. > :38:48.you didn't think Emma Rice was the right person for the Globe? The
:38:49. > :38:52.lighting was part of it. This was an institution that was built to
:38:53. > :38:55.present Shakespeare as his audience would have appreciated him. So the
:38:56. > :39:00.natural lighting was part of the charm. But the deeper point is that
:39:01. > :39:04.what is old is not necessarily bad and what is new is not necessarily
:39:05. > :39:09.good. So this assumption that old is bad and progressive is good falls
:39:10. > :39:11.apart when you see her productions, which were the productions of
:39:12. > :39:18.someone who clearly didn't like Shakespeare. I am not speculating,
:39:19. > :39:23.she has said, when I read Shakespeare, I get sleepy and want
:39:24. > :39:27.to put on the archers. We saw productions suggesting that the
:39:28. > :39:31.ferry potion that alters people's desires in her production of A
:39:32. > :39:36.Midsummer Night's Dream was a date rape drug, or all this modern slang.
:39:37. > :39:46.So when Lysander says to her mere, get away from me, she changed it to,
:39:47. > :39:52.get away from me, you argue BLEEP. Actually, I changed that! This is
:39:53. > :39:57.the rep for Shakespeare theatre where you are meant to see it as
:39:58. > :40:01.they saw it. No, it is theatre. Data should be ever-changing and you
:40:02. > :40:08.should allow people in the arts to be able to interpret it as they
:40:09. > :40:15.wish. It was 99% Shakespeare. There were tiny cuts. What is the point of
:40:16. > :40:21.going to the Globe? The point is that they appointed her. They wanted
:40:22. > :40:26.her. They were excited about her. What has happened is that the Globe
:40:27. > :40:31.have not backed her. A people were tweeting rudely about the decision
:40:32. > :40:34.and saying, if you want authenticity, then scatter cholera
:40:35. > :40:40.over the seats. Because it is not authentic Shakespeare, it has planes
:40:41. > :40:45.flying overhead. It is nothing like Shakespeare's day. But it comes down
:40:46. > :40:49.to having a certain degree of trust in the text. With what Ms Rice was
:40:50. > :40:51.trying to do with her team, there was anxiety about the fact that
:40:52. > :40:55.Shakespeare is not relevant and people couldn't relate to it unless
:40:56. > :41:01.we had a David Bowie song, which she did in the middle of one, and a
:41:02. > :41:07.Beyonce dance number. But if you actually go to the texts, you can
:41:08. > :41:11.see the reason it is at the heart of the western canon is because it
:41:12. > :41:14.speaks across time and across identity and across all of this
:41:15. > :41:18.stuff, so you don't need to impose relevant on it. You don't need to
:41:19. > :41:28.rescue Shakespeare from irrelevance. Thank you both very much.
:41:29. > :41:31.I will be here tomorrow. Until then, good night.