:00:00. > :00:07.Tonight, 2016 strikes again - we've torn up the political script -
:00:08. > :00:13.as a late entry - Francois Fillon - rewrites politics in France.
:00:14. > :00:17.Who is this former President - and how would he fare
:00:18. > :00:25.Can his anglophile views help us do better on Brexit.
:00:26. > :00:27.We ask one of France's most distinguished broadcasters
:00:28. > :00:34.Can the independent inquiry into child abuse regain
:00:35. > :00:40.the faith of victims - or is it beyond repair?
:00:41. > :00:47.We have got to the stage now, down the line where it has crumbled.
:00:48. > :00:48.There is no other word for it, it has crumbled.
:00:49. > :00:51.Business, or pleasure - or politics - its so hard
:00:52. > :00:54.Donald Trump is welcome figures from around the world -
:00:55. > :00:56.but is he starting to merge the interests of the
:00:57. > :01:04.We'll talk to George W Bush's ethics adviser.
:01:05. > :01:09.And, why was actor Joseph Gordon-Levitt warned off playing
:01:10. > :01:14.Just like what you're saying, he is a controversial figure,
:01:15. > :01:17.You have to think about the commercial
:01:18. > :01:33.I don't think those people are wrong.
:01:34. > :01:37.The man they used to call the Bling Bling President is bowing
:01:38. > :01:39.out of French politics with barely a whimper.
:01:40. > :01:41.Nicholas Sarkozy, former French President, came
:01:42. > :01:45.a distant third in a race he was expected to win.
:01:46. > :01:50.But this is 2016, don't forget, the year where we take any political
:01:51. > :01:55.So it is Francois Fillon, another former President,
:01:56. > :01:58.a man who likes driving racing cars, who has become the firm favourite
:01:59. > :02:00.to lead the centre right into the Spring election
:02:01. > :02:03.for an expected showdown with the National Front's Marine Le Pen.
:02:04. > :02:05.Francois Fillon, an economic liberal and social conservative,
:02:06. > :02:11.He's said he will cut public sector jobs and rein in
:02:12. > :02:17.But his success last night may owe as much to tactical voting
:02:18. > :02:19.and a loathing of Sarkozy as anything he has done yet.
:02:20. > :02:22.So is it too early to ask what Fillon would mean for France
:02:23. > :02:25.and indeed for the UK as we head towards Brexit?
:02:26. > :02:35.Here's Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban.
:02:36. > :02:45.Francois Fillon had his revenge and it must have been sweet. The man in
:02:46. > :02:53.the driving seat of politics is an amateur motor driver. He fell victim
:02:54. > :02:57.to snide briefings by his boss and last night, he knocked Nicolas
:02:58. > :03:06.Sarkozy out of the primary race the leadership of the Centre right. And
:03:07. > :03:11.he pulled ahead of the other candidate by 12 points. I think the
:03:12. > :03:18.people who voted for Francois Fillon during the primary yesterday, did it
:03:19. > :03:25.specially to kick out Nicolas Sarkozy, which is done. Now that we
:03:26. > :03:31.have kicked out Nicolas Sarkozy from the race, I think the people will
:03:32. > :03:35.check more carefully, the programme. The winner will face off against
:03:36. > :03:41.Marine Le Pen and after Donald Trump's victory, she seems to be the
:03:42. > :03:50.one to beat. She is more Eurosceptic, but Fillon's politics
:03:51. > :03:54.appeal to many on the right. Religion is central to Francois
:03:55. > :03:58.Fillon on's worldview. A Catholic, he has championed the cause of
:03:59. > :04:02.oppressed Christians in the Middle East and it is central to his views
:04:03. > :04:10.on questions from abortion to gay rights, or the place of Islam in
:04:11. > :04:16.French society. TRANSLATION: This means a policy will have to be put
:04:17. > :04:19.in place, a policy I call administrative control to steer
:04:20. > :04:25.Muslim communities progressively towards acceptance of the rules
:04:26. > :04:29.which are those of our country. The Fillon platform, with its emphasis
:04:30. > :04:34.on bringing French Muslims into line, such as delicate feelings
:04:35. > :04:40.given the recent terror attacks. But his supporters argue, that is no
:04:41. > :04:48.argument. The French are fed up by this kind of drifting away of
:04:49. > :04:53.cultural differences. I think this is a major danger. Fillon is well
:04:54. > :05:02.aware of this danger and this is why also he wants to make it clear. It
:05:03. > :05:05.is through that prism a global war against extreme Islam that Fillon
:05:06. > :05:14.favours reconciliation with President Putin. TRANSLATION: There
:05:15. > :05:20.has to be a coalition with the Russians. I find it a bit rich that
:05:21. > :05:26.taking a counter-productive attitude we have over Russia, we will
:05:27. > :05:35.reconcile over our heads. It is time to change that policy. Reform of the
:05:36. > :05:41.French economy forms the other main plank of Fillon's platform. There is
:05:42. > :05:45.talk of drastic slimming down of the public sector. Given how contentious
:05:46. > :05:49.the reform of working hours and retirement age has already proven in
:05:50. > :06:00.France, this won't be an easy sell. It is very close to Margaret
:06:01. > :06:05.Thatcher programme. The people surfing on this wave will not be any
:06:06. > :06:14.better off with a centrist party. We may have some division and the
:06:15. > :06:17.centrist party will not support Francois Fillon because of this
:06:18. > :06:25.Christian, Margaret Thatcher programme. It is way too white ring.
:06:26. > :06:30.His driving passion has already got him a guest appearance of trans-'s
:06:31. > :06:35.version of top gay. If it puts him into pole position to challenge
:06:36. > :06:37.Marine Le Pen, French voters might have a choice between right and far
:06:38. > :06:38.right. Joining me now from Paris
:06:39. > :06:47.is the journalist Christine Ockrent. We had a little bit about his
:06:48. > :06:53.policies, perhaps his ideologies, but perhaps you can give us a
:06:54. > :06:59.flavour of the man himself, and Anglophile, a Welsh arrive, how
:07:00. > :07:06.would you characterise him? Francois Fillon is a calm guy. He was Nicolas
:07:07. > :07:14.Sarkozy's Prime Minister for five years. But indeed, he has been a
:07:15. > :07:20.constant, low key figure in French conservative politics for ages. He
:07:21. > :07:27.has been an MP since he was 24. So he's very much the political
:07:28. > :07:30.establishment, but I think at the same time his remarkable performance
:07:31. > :07:38.yesterday has to do with his consistency. And given the extreme
:07:39. > :07:43.weakness of the socialist President Francois Hollande on the one hand,
:07:44. > :07:50.and the fierce hatred that opposed Nicolas Sarkozy for the primary, the
:07:51. > :07:57.first round of the Conservative primary yesterday, I think Francois
:07:58. > :08:02.Fillon impress voters with his very sort of calm, you know, I stick to
:08:03. > :08:09.my programme attitude. It is true that his programme, as it was
:08:10. > :08:13.pointed out earlier on, is a mix of extremely good conservative values,
:08:14. > :08:21.as far as society is concerned. Education, he wants to ban the law
:08:22. > :08:27.allowing same-sex people to adopt children, for instance. But also
:08:28. > :08:34.very liberal, especially by French standards, very liberal thatch Aryan
:08:35. > :08:39.views about the economy. I think that so far, people haven't looked
:08:40. > :08:43.very close at his programme and that will be, actually the meat of the
:08:44. > :08:55.very fierce competition. Throughout this week, opposing... Let me just
:08:56. > :08:59.say, the words you have views, consistency, conservatism, don't
:09:00. > :09:03.point to the same trends we are seen globally, people looking for the
:09:04. > :09:07.risk of the outsider, somebody who surprises them. Is France bucking
:09:08. > :09:15.the trend, or does that come next year? No, I don't agree with that
:09:16. > :09:21.view completely. Fillon is very much an insider. He is not a populist.
:09:22. > :09:29.What has happened in Europe, in the eastern part of Europe primarily,
:09:30. > :09:34.but also with Brexit but also obviously in the US, is a wave of
:09:35. > :09:41.populism. Fillon is the opposite of that. Fillon is an insider. He has
:09:42. > :09:48.been an insider for years. It is much more overreaction from the
:09:49. > :09:54.Conservative, Catholic very sort of serious minded liberal minded
:09:55. > :10:00.people, as far as the economy is concerned, who feel they paying much
:10:01. > :10:07.taxes, they feel business is being contrived. It is very different. The
:10:08. > :10:11.Brits have a dog in this race, how do you think his views towards
:10:12. > :10:20.Brexit will be influenced by his wife, by his love of Britain, as we
:10:21. > :10:26.understand it? Do you think he is a good person for us? First of all,
:10:27. > :10:32.his wife is Welsh, which I understand it, is something quite
:10:33. > :10:35.specific. More seriously, I don't think frankly that Brexit is on
:10:36. > :10:42.Francois Fillon's mind for the time being. He has never been a
:10:43. > :10:48.Europhile, he voted against the Maastricht Treaty many years back.
:10:49. > :10:55.But, he is very concerned about restoring very strong Franco German
:10:56. > :11:05.alliance. That is not necessarily you know, meaning a very easy
:11:06. > :11:14.flexible attitude towards Brexit. Can he beat Marine Le Pen, do you
:11:15. > :11:18.believe? I believe he can. He is actually very bad news for Marine Le
:11:19. > :11:24.Pen. Precisely because he is so conservative on social issues. He is
:11:25. > :11:27.so much concerned in fact with French identity, which has been
:11:28. > :11:35.Marine Le Pen's main argument so far. So I think as far as the French
:11:36. > :11:40.far right is concerned, Francois Phil on, if he becomes the
:11:41. > :11:44.Conservative candidate next Sunday and if he wins the first round of
:11:45. > :11:52.our presidential elections at the end of next April, as Marine Le Pen
:11:53. > :11:58.may well, they will be facing one another. I think he can win over
:11:59. > :12:02.Marine Le Pen. Thank you very much, thanks for joining us.
:12:03. > :12:06.As we came on air, a few moments ago Japan was on high alert
:12:07. > :12:08.following an earthquake off the coast of Fukishima.
:12:09. > :12:11.The preliminary magnitude was 7.3 but there is now a tsunami warning
:12:12. > :12:16.in place for waves of up to ten feet.
:12:17. > :12:18.Fukushima is home to the nucleasr power plant that was destroyed
:12:19. > :12:21.by a tusnami five years ago after a major earthquake then.
:12:22. > :12:24.We can cross live to Rupert Wingfield Hayes in Tokyo
:12:25. > :12:40.What are you hearing? The tsunami alarms are still going off on the
:12:41. > :12:45.coast of Fukishima, about 200 miles north of Tokyo. There was an
:12:46. > :12:48.evacuation order called by the national broadcaster after the
:12:49. > :12:54.earthquake struck at just after, just before 6am this morning local
:12:55. > :12:58.time. Calling for people to leave the coast immediately. Since then,
:12:59. > :13:01.we have seen a couple of waves coming but they have been much
:13:02. > :13:06.smaller than expected. The highest wave to strike the coast so far,
:13:07. > :13:11.just one metre, or around three feet, not the ten feet that was
:13:12. > :13:16.predicted. It looks like this will not be anything on the scale of what
:13:17. > :13:18.happened in 2011 of course. It is a strong earthquake, there is a
:13:19. > :13:26.tsunami warning in place, but it looks to be that the people on the
:13:27. > :13:29.coast are not going to be struck by a large disaster. Is it your sense
:13:30. > :13:35.they are taking the evacuation measures seriously, or are they
:13:36. > :13:39.staying put? It is hard to save from here what ordinary people are doing.
:13:40. > :13:41.I think the response from the government and the national
:13:42. > :13:48.broadcaster to call for people to evacuate immediately, is, if you
:13:49. > :13:52.like, a response to what happened in 2011 when so many people ignore the
:13:53. > :13:55.evacuation orders and ignored the alarms and were caught in their
:13:56. > :14:00.homes and were killed when that massive wave came in. So now,
:14:01. > :14:05.whenever there is an earthquake of this scale offshore, particularly of
:14:06. > :14:10.the north-east coast of Japan, there tends to be a much quicker... We
:14:11. > :14:13.have just lost Rupert, but he was speaking to us from Tokyo.
:14:14. > :14:16.Last week was a torrid one for the independent inquiry
:14:17. > :14:18.Newsnight revealed that yet another barrister
:14:19. > :14:21.And the largest survivors' group involved in the inquiry
:14:22. > :14:41.This week it faces more uncomfortable questions. Tonights
:14:42. > :14:45.another senior lawyer who has ribs and a victims families in two Major
:14:46. > :14:49.enquiries tells us that the child sexual abuse enquiry is crumbling.
:14:50. > :15:06.Chilcot, MacPherson. Bloody Sunday. When major national enquiries to
:15:07. > :15:10.eventually report they can deliver enduring change. But for the
:15:11. > :15:15.independent inquiry into child sexual abuse a triumphant end feels
:15:16. > :15:18.a long way away. Today at Westminster there were more calls
:15:19. > :15:24.for the government to intervene. He has lost seven senior lawyers, three
:15:25. > :15:27.cheers and several survivors groups and it is now impossible to see that
:15:28. > :15:31.this inquiry is still effectively operating. This may be the last
:15:32. > :15:36.chance that the Prime Minister and her Home Secretary had to rescue the
:15:37. > :15:42.inquiry that she set up from collapse. It is essential that this
:15:43. > :15:46.inquiry is an independent inquiry. The terms of reference of this
:15:47. > :15:52.inquiry were shaped with the voices and the opinions of the victims and
:15:53. > :15:57.it is very important that this independence is maintained. It was
:15:58. > :16:03.high summer when the last decamped for a public hearing. That was
:16:04. > :16:06.before all those departures. So what's gone wrong with the inquiry?
:16:07. > :16:11.One theory goes that it has simply been asked to look at far too much.
:16:12. > :16:15.But talk to some of those familiar with its workings and they will say
:16:16. > :16:18.that is not the case, its goals are fairly well defined and in principle
:16:19. > :16:22.it should be able to do its job. Instead they point to some other
:16:23. > :16:26.very well documented issues around some of the key personalities in the
:16:27. > :16:30.inquiry, issues they say have contributed to a sense of
:16:31. > :16:35.dysfunction. We have got to stage now down the line where it has
:16:36. > :16:39.crumbled. There is no other word for it, it has crumbled. What has gone
:16:40. > :16:45.seriously wrong here is a dismal failure to consult with the
:16:46. > :16:50.survivors groups from the beginning. About appointments. And about the
:16:51. > :16:57.substantial of materials which have to be assembled. Secondly the actual
:16:58. > :17:03.appointment of the cheer have been inappropriate, one after another.
:17:04. > :17:06.Just how many mistakes can you make? And some of the groups are saying
:17:07. > :17:12.have these mistakes he made on purpose? The current chair of the
:17:13. > :17:17.inquiry suggest there might be a different agenda at place. Professor
:17:18. > :17:22.Alexis Jay has spoken of forces that do not want dark institutional
:17:23. > :17:26.failings brought into the light. Victims and survivors have to feel
:17:27. > :17:30.they are coming to a safe place and thus far the inquiry is being
:17:31. > :17:36.painted by these outside influences, sometimes aided and abetted by the
:17:37. > :17:39.media, as being an unsafe place. I am in there every week and I don't
:17:40. > :17:43.recognise it as an unsafe place. I see a lot of good people doing a lot
:17:44. > :17:48.of hard work but there have been individuals that have come and gone
:17:49. > :17:54.and clearly it was not the place for them to be. Inquiry will receive
:17:55. > :17:58.more attention this week. The home affairs select committee has written
:17:59. > :18:01.to a number of former lawyers in the inquiry asking for information and
:18:02. > :18:04.their responses are due to be published. But Newsnight understands
:18:05. > :18:08.that the inquiry has told those lawyers not to cooperate in any
:18:09. > :18:13.meaningful way with the committee. Those who accuse the inquiry of the
:18:14. > :18:16.lack of transparency are unlikely to be impressed. However it is
:18:17. > :18:22.understood that one of those lawyers has sent a substantial reply
:18:23. > :18:25.regardless. Newsnight has previously revealed how the inquiry scrapped
:18:26. > :18:31.investigations into Ben Emmerson, its most senior lawyer despite being
:18:32. > :18:35.told of an accusation of sexual assault in a left at the inquiry
:18:36. > :18:39.offices, an accusation he strongly denies. To date the inquiry has
:18:40. > :18:43.brushed off criticism of how it handled that claim by simply saying
:18:44. > :18:49.we have never received an actual complaint. But it is understood this
:18:50. > :18:52.is a subject that the man who once the inquiry second most senior
:18:53. > :18:59.barrister addresses in his letter to MPs. As well as his role with the
:19:00. > :19:03.inquiry he is an expert on how institutions should act when they
:19:04. > :19:07.receive information on potential wrongdoing but received no official
:19:08. > :19:13.complaint. It is understood Mr Davies is highly critical of the
:19:14. > :19:19.handling of the disclosure. For some the inquiry us to have the survivors
:19:20. > :19:22.on board to succeed. We get our assurances that it's going to be all
:19:23. > :19:26.right on the night, well I am afraid I don't accept that, I would want to
:19:27. > :19:33.get in and see how bad it is. It looks extremely bad from the outside
:19:34. > :19:38.and I cannot see how ploughing on without the main actor, this is
:19:39. > :19:41.Hamlet without Hamlet. The defenders of the inquiry say it is doing good
:19:42. > :19:46.work. They point to the truth project for many survivors of abuse
:19:47. > :19:51.have been recording your story. Let the inquiry get on with its job the
:19:52. > :19:55.defenders say it but others have unanswered questions.
:19:56. > :19:57.The oppulent gilded lobby of Trump Towers
:19:58. > :20:00.of besuited visitors over the last few days.
:20:01. > :20:01.Cabinet hopefuls, foreign leaders, business associates.
:20:02. > :20:04.So seamlessly have they processed towards the President-elect,
:20:05. > :20:06.it hasn't been entirely clear who's there for business
:20:07. > :20:12.Donald Trump, we understand now, likes to do things differently.
:20:13. > :20:14.He choses Twitter over press conferences, family council over
:20:15. > :20:19.special advisors, his own hotels over buildings of state.
:20:20. > :20:21.For anyone else, the business of presiding over America
:20:22. > :20:24.would be a call to put all other interests aside.
:20:25. > :20:31.Is the opacity, the blurring of lines just initial confusion
:20:32. > :20:33.with an office maybe he himself never expected to win?
:20:34. > :20:41.I'm joined now by Richard Painter, the White House lawyer who advised
:20:42. > :20:46.President George W Bush on ethics in government.
:20:47. > :20:51.Richard Painter a very nice to speak to you this evening, as an ethics
:20:52. > :20:58.lawyer what do you see at the moment that you don't like? Well, the first
:20:59. > :21:02.thing I have to say is that the corruption potential in a Trump
:21:03. > :21:06.Administration is a serious problem and something we are going to have
:21:07. > :21:09.to sort out in the United States. But our friends across the Atlantic
:21:10. > :21:14.in England and Europe and around the world ought to take comfort in the
:21:15. > :21:18.fact that Donald Trump's personal and business life has absolutely
:21:19. > :21:23.nothing to do with what he said during the campaign. His personal
:21:24. > :21:26.life has nothing to do with the claptrap of the social conservative
:21:27. > :21:32.religious conservatives he pandered to. He had friends in the Islamic
:21:33. > :21:36.community, particularly rich Muslims to whom he sold apartments and did
:21:37. > :21:43.business deals over many years and like most American businessmen he
:21:44. > :21:48.has made enormous amount of money off global, nurse. So the notion
:21:49. > :21:50.that the United States is somehow going to retreat from global
:21:51. > :21:56.commerce under President Trump is almost a joke. So we will have to
:21:57. > :22:00.sort out the corruption problems and there are many of them but I do not
:22:01. > :22:05.see this presidency going in the direction that he talked about
:22:06. > :22:12.simply in order to pander to white working-class voters with their
:22:13. > :22:15.protectionist agenda. You sound as if you are reassured by the breath
:22:16. > :22:20.and skill of his business interests if anything but you keep returning
:22:21. > :22:26.to this word corruption and that is quite a fierce charge, what do you
:22:27. > :22:30.worry about? There is potential for corruption here when you have a
:22:31. > :22:33.president who has enormous business holdings all over the world and is
:22:34. > :22:37.supposed to be conducting the affairs of the United States
:22:38. > :22:41.government and supervising people throughout the executive branch who
:22:42. > :22:45.are conducting the business of the United States government. We have a
:22:46. > :22:49.whole range of problems that could come up, people will be peppering
:22:50. > :22:52.his businesses with lawsuits, the plaintiffs lawyers in the United
:22:53. > :22:58.States are more than happy to go after President Trump. They can sue
:22:59. > :23:02.at the drop of a hat, do not have took pay the losers these if they
:23:03. > :23:07.sue and lose as they would in other parts of the world. We saw how
:23:08. > :23:12.litigation against the President worked out under President Clinton
:23:13. > :23:16.and I think this will be a very bad situation if President Trump does
:23:17. > :23:19.not dispose of these assets around the world. Another problem is the
:23:20. > :23:25.potential for foreign government money to get into the Trump business
:23:26. > :23:28.empire to his financial benefit and that would be prohibited by the
:23:29. > :23:34.emoluments clause of the United States Constitution. We have that
:23:35. > :23:40.provision because of the practice in the 18th century of the Crown in
:23:41. > :23:46.England, Great Britain, of giving emollients to members of Parliament,
:23:47. > :23:51.we did not want that going on. Explained to us, who steps in? You
:23:52. > :23:55.are an ethics lawyer, Donald Trump has done everything differently, he
:23:56. > :24:00.has got Congress entirely on his side in terms of the Republican
:24:01. > :24:07.base, so who would actually step in and tell him that he is doing wrong?
:24:08. > :24:13.I am not sure Congress will be on his side, each member of Congress is
:24:14. > :24:16.in it for themselves in their own district. I don't think the
:24:17. > :24:20.Republican members of Congress are going to put up with a situation
:24:21. > :24:28.where the president appears to be benefiting financially from his
:24:29. > :24:32.public office, in particular I get back to this concern about money
:24:33. > :24:35.coming in from foreign governments because that is specifically
:24:36. > :24:41.prohibited under our Constitution so he is going at a minimum to have to
:24:42. > :24:44.make absolutely sure that are linked with the Bank of China, with
:24:45. > :24:48.sovereign wealth funds, these diplomats staying in Trump hotels,
:24:49. > :24:56.all of that is going to have to be cleansed of any impression of a
:24:57. > :25:00.gift. OK, Richard Painter, thank you very much. We should say we do not
:25:01. > :25:04.know what is going on, there has been denials of any impropriety in
:25:05. > :25:07.his business dealings so far, Richard Painter thank you very much.
:25:08. > :25:09.What does the Prime Minister have to do to help business?
:25:10. > :25:12.Today she told the CBI she was going to help them
:25:13. > :25:14.by offering support to entrepreneurs and innovative companies.
:25:15. > :25:16.But - when you speak to businesses themseves -
:25:17. > :25:21.Well the boss of the biggest tech company in this country has told
:25:22. > :25:23.Newsnight that the Government needs to bring in a radical reform
:25:24. > :25:25.of the tax system to create something that suits
:25:26. > :25:29.The man in question is called Stephen Kelly -
:25:30. > :25:31.boss of the software giant Sage, and he's been talking
:25:32. > :25:44.This plan for a radical tax reform, what is it? Stephen Kelly is a
:25:45. > :25:48.significant voice in British business because he runs Sage which
:25:49. > :25:54.is the largest take company in the UK. Also he was at one time the
:25:55. > :25:59.chief operating officer for the government. So he knows how the tax
:26:00. > :26:04.system works. I have been talking to him about exactly the challenges are
:26:05. > :26:08.facing Britain at the moment. Lots of thoughts but they sympathise into
:26:09. > :26:12.two things, firstly his complaints about the tax system and that is
:26:13. > :26:16.also because the impact of the Digital economy. Companies like
:26:17. > :26:21.Amazon and Google and Facebook and where do they pay their taxes? He
:26:22. > :26:25.thinks these two things blend into one around business rates, that's
:26:26. > :26:33.something we've had for centuries, brought in during the reign of the
:26:34. > :26:35.first Queen Elizabeth and he says it's now an arcane link between
:26:36. > :26:39.property and tax because so much money is generated digitally, not
:26:40. > :26:46.least by Amazon and Google, companies who don't pay historic
:26:47. > :26:49.amounts of tax but generate massive amounts of revenue. Stephen Kelly
:26:50. > :26:53.has told us that he thinks there should be an overview of the tax
:26:54. > :26:57.system and a complete rethinking of it, looking at money hurt online and
:26:58. > :26:58.crucially he is proposing the complete abolition of business
:26:59. > :27:00.rates. Actually, I think it's down
:27:01. > :27:03.to the government to step up and have a radical reform of the tax
:27:04. > :27:07.system to make it fair. If you asked any executive
:27:08. > :27:10.they want to be fair and they want to pay tax
:27:11. > :27:12.in the appropriate jurisdiction, but it is down to the government
:27:13. > :27:18.to make sure the simplicity of the tax system really represents
:27:19. > :27:20.the way where physical presence, like property, have very little
:27:21. > :27:24.meaning in 2016. It may have meant something 400
:27:25. > :27:27.years ago when there was no Internet, but the Internet
:27:28. > :27:29.has changed everything. And you can see through
:27:30. > :27:32.the prevalence of online shopping, the whole kind of focus
:27:33. > :27:36.and the shift towards a digital economy that effectively a tax
:27:37. > :27:41.system created in the essence of Genesis 400 years ago makes
:27:42. > :27:52.no sense today. Is he worried about taking on the
:27:53. > :27:57.big giants? He is but he runs a very big company himself. And remember he
:27:58. > :28:03.has worked in the States and here, and all you need is one clever idea
:28:04. > :28:06.and you can generate a huge company, so I asked him having worked on both
:28:07. > :28:10.sides of the Atlantic what advice would you give to British take
:28:11. > :28:16.companies? There is a difference in terms of not just the philosophy of
:28:17. > :28:20.technology and how you embrace it but also the culture and the
:28:21. > :28:24.attitudes we have. I would probably say looking at the difference in the
:28:25. > :28:29.UK we are more anxious and there is a bit of fear of failure, in the US
:28:30. > :28:33.we encourage the culture where we fail fast and learn and grow. So I
:28:34. > :28:38.think if there is a lesson to be learnt from silicon valley it is
:28:39. > :28:42.probably that we should abandon that fear of failure. Stephen Kelly the
:28:43. > :28:44.boss of Sage speaking to Adam Parsons earlier.
:28:45. > :28:49.Tony Blair - Labour's most electorally successful leader ever -
:28:50. > :28:52.will not be returning to front line politics and will not be seeking
:28:53. > :28:59.Those in his inner circle say they would not be surprised to see
:29:00. > :29:01.the former PM reappear - and indeed the frequency
:29:02. > :29:04.with which he reminds us how vacant the centre ground is does little
:29:05. > :29:07.to dispell the notion he is measuring up
:29:08. > :29:12.He wants - his office tells us - to remain part of the debate.
:29:13. > :29:15.He is also reported to be looking for a new base in London now.
:29:16. > :29:17.So would Tony Blair be warmly welcomed into
:29:18. > :29:23.Or is he seen as a busted - and still toxic - flush?
:29:24. > :29:26.Brexiteers - who believe the latter - are getting quite excited
:29:27. > :29:30.Joining me now Caroline Lucas, joint leader of the Greens,
:29:31. > :29:37.and John McTernan, former advisor to Tony Blair.
:29:38. > :29:43.Very nice to have you both here. John, is your sense there is
:29:44. > :29:48.something rippling below the waters, he would like to come back despite
:29:49. > :29:54.the denials? People are getting very excited, he is biggest political
:29:55. > :29:57.figure of our era and people cannot stop talking about him because
:29:58. > :30:03.everybody wants him back in some way, shape or form. He has not gone
:30:04. > :30:07.away, has been commenting and talking on politics. Had a great
:30:08. > :30:13.essay in the new European about the challenges of Brexit. When you say
:30:14. > :30:16.everyone wants him back in any way shape or form, you mean his enemies
:30:17. > :30:22.want him back, but not on their side? No, it is nearly a decade
:30:23. > :30:25.since he stopped being Prime Minister and stopped being an MP and
:30:26. > :30:32.we are on television talking about him. For Labour, he was the last
:30:33. > :30:36.time Labour won anything? He was the last time Labour won anything, but
:30:37. > :30:40.the idea that it qualifies him now to come back after everything with
:30:41. > :30:44.the Iraq war and the dodgy dealings with dictators and take some moral
:30:45. > :30:48.high ground in our political debate now beggars belief. John needs to
:30:49. > :30:55.get out more, people are not begging for him to come back. The last few
:30:56. > :30:58.months, if it has told us anything, the political establishment is not
:30:59. > :31:04.held in a great deal of respect now. And Tony Blair, the way he is
:31:05. > :31:08.associated with that, the idea he would be a good spokesperson for the
:31:09. > :31:12.remain campaign or anything else right now is ludicrous. He might
:31:13. > :31:18.have this lightning rod for everybody who hates New Labour,
:31:19. > :31:24.hates remain and the Iraq war, all your enemies could target on this
:31:25. > :31:29.one thing. Half the country voted to stay in the European Union and
:31:30. > :31:33.people are thinking about the vote, car workers did not vote for
:31:34. > :31:38.tariffs. Wouldn't you like to have a strong voice like that? I wouldn't
:31:39. > :31:44.want it to be Tony Blair. What John doesn't recognise is the message she
:31:45. > :31:47.gives might not be the problem but the messenger is. He is
:31:48. > :31:51.fundamentally contaminated. People don't see that. Get out in the real
:31:52. > :31:57.world, people are not talking about Tony Blair in anything other than
:31:58. > :32:03.regretful terms because it is a lost opportunity. He could have been a
:32:04. > :32:05.wonderful advocate but he is fatally compromised and fatally
:32:06. > :32:09.contaminated. We have a Prime Minister not up to the job, we have
:32:10. > :32:14.a leader of an opposition whose ambition is to make the Labour Party
:32:15. > :32:22.ultraleft and we have Tim Farron representing the centre ground.
:32:23. > :32:26.Someone who is known for lying, taken the country to an illegal and
:32:27. > :32:32.immoral war under a false prospectus, is that what the country
:32:33. > :32:37.is crying out for? It is not just about what the Greens thing, it is
:32:38. > :32:49.abuse. It is ridiculous. Does that tell you how empty the ground is
:32:50. > :32:53.then, if somebody, from... From this perspective from Brexit, you would
:32:54. > :33:00.welcome it but can you tolerate the thought? Caroline represents a
:33:01. > :33:04.strand of thought is way to the left of the Labour Party, more
:33:05. > :33:12.destructive than John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. Tony Blair has said,
:33:13. > :33:17.the vast bulk of British people are unrepresented in British politics.
:33:18. > :33:22.There is no voice. Come back to the idea that Tony Blair is the person
:33:23. > :33:25.to fill that space is wrong. We have the Greens, the Lib Dems, the
:33:26. > :33:34.Nationalists and some in Labour who are doing their best to fill that
:33:35. > :33:43.space. Mr Chilcott, thought the boil would be lanced, he has done his
:33:44. > :33:51.time, got to move forward now, is there in which he can move forward?
:33:52. > :33:55.I say it with regret because he is charismatic, he has huge
:33:56. > :34:00.communication skills. In many ways, he is a brilliant communicator but
:34:01. > :34:04.he is contaminated. That is a voice that will echo throughout TV sets at
:34:05. > :34:08.home. Labour voters when polled said they would rather have Tony Blair as
:34:09. > :34:13.leader of the Labour Party than Jeremy Corbyn. It is not surprising
:34:14. > :34:19.because Tony Blair today, articulate a vision of where Britain should go.
:34:20. > :34:22.Far more powerful and profound than any leading politician of any of the
:34:23. > :34:27.major political parties at the moment. If there wasn't a vacuum at
:34:28. > :34:32.the heart of British politics, we wouldn't be so excited and obsessed
:34:33. > :34:37.with Tony Blair. Caroline just talks and talks about him, like a lot
:34:38. > :34:42.of... I didn't talk about him until I was asked to come here. People go
:34:43. > :34:47.on about Tony, you fascinate them. He is a global figure. What you are
:34:48. > :34:51.both saying, from the remain perspective, the job is not being
:34:52. > :34:56.done properly for you. Not by anybody in the House of Commons. I
:34:57. > :35:00.disagree, it is a shame Labour is not united on this and Labour should
:35:01. > :35:05.be making a stronger case in holding the government to account when it
:35:06. > :35:10.comes to Article 50, when it comes to the terms. Tony Blair is the only
:35:11. > :35:17.person who can do this now? That is what I disagree with. Labour voters,
:35:18. > :35:22.remain voters are being betrayed by Jeremy Corbyn. We have a Brexit vote
:35:23. > :35:28.which is a consequence of the betrayal of Jeremy Corbyn. In that
:35:29. > :35:31.space there is backing for thinking outside the Labour Party and
:35:32. > :35:35.thinking outside the House of Commons. The Brexit vote was fuelled
:35:36. > :35:38.in part that people don't trust politicians any more. Why don't they
:35:39. > :35:43.trust them any more, not least because of the way Tony Blair took
:35:44. > :35:46.us to war. I sorry, but it is true. Thank you both.
:35:47. > :35:49.To some Edward Snowden is a hero, a whistleblower who exposed
:35:50. > :35:51.the extraordinary extent of the United States's surveillance
:35:52. > :35:55.To others, notably the US government, the former spook
:35:56. > :35:58.is a traitor who must stand trial - if he ever emerges from Russia,
:35:59. > :36:01.where he says he's been grounded since his passport was revoked.
:36:02. > :36:03.A feature film based on Snowden's story is coming
:36:04. > :36:06.to a cinema near you, through the good offices of
:36:07. > :36:10.Playing the lead is actor Joseph Gordon Levitt,
:36:11. > :36:12.who has made his own study of the relationship
:36:13. > :36:19.He's been talking to our Culture Correspondent Stephen Smith.
:36:20. > :36:21.There's something going on inside the government that's
:36:22. > :36:27.I just want to get this data to the world.
:36:28. > :36:32.It is from his point of view trying to get inside of his head.
:36:33. > :36:36.I feel like I'm made to do this and if I don't do it,
:36:37. > :36:42.then I don't know anyone else who can.
:36:43. > :36:44.What I found, when you have conversations about Edward Snowden,
:36:45. > :36:48.it matters less about the technology, the policy,
:36:49. > :36:50.you can tell them all the facts about why mass surveillance
:36:51. > :36:52.is unconstitutional, but what they want
:36:53. > :37:09.If you take more than eight, you will fail.
:37:10. > :37:21.The Snowdon of Oliver Stone's film is a patriot and a tech nerd.
:37:22. > :37:25.Injured out of the Army, he becomes a rookie spook,
:37:26. > :37:26.designing a covert communications network
:37:27. > :37:43.You don't have to tell me when you have completed a stage.
:37:44. > :37:44.No, I finished the whole thing.
:37:45. > :37:50.I believe you went to see him in Moscow?
:37:51. > :37:54.How did you find him, what was that like?
:37:55. > :37:58.I have been really fortunate in my life that I've got to meet
:37:59. > :38:01.a lot of people who I admire a lot, but at Edward Snowdon
:38:02. > :38:11.This is a guy that risked his life to stand up for what he believes in.
:38:12. > :38:14.I think he appears as himself doesn't he at the end of
:38:15. > :38:24.He's living in Moscow now and a lot of his critics like to use that
:38:25. > :38:26.against him and say, then he must be working
:38:27. > :38:33.The truth is, what happened he went to Hong Kong to hand
:38:34. > :38:36.the information he took over to select set journalists.
:38:37. > :38:45.The government knows we have these documents now.
:38:46. > :38:48.The CIA could barge through this door at any minute and
:38:49. > :38:52.Act like a (SOUND DIPS) journalist and stop stringing us along.
:38:53. > :38:55.But a lot of people in your country would say he is a traitor
:38:56. > :38:57.and would like to see him stand trial?
:38:58. > :38:59.Any time someone stands up to a powerful authority throughout
:39:00. > :39:01.history, that powerful authority tries to discredit them.
:39:02. > :39:09.It's a question of government being accountable to the people.
:39:10. > :39:14.Whether or not mass surveillance is right or wrong, that is a discussion
:39:15. > :39:21.we can have and I think there are valid points on both sides. With
:39:22. > :39:27.roles in blockbusters like Inception Gordon Levitt is on a good street.
:39:28. > :39:33.Did his agent won him a controversial Oliver Stone movie
:39:34. > :39:41.might not be a smart career move. How do I'd drop you without gravity.
:39:42. > :39:45.A lot of people said that to me. They said, what you're saying,
:39:46. > :39:48.controversial figure, polarising in the United States, you have to think
:39:49. > :39:56.about the commercial viability of your career. I don't think those
:39:57. > :40:00.people are wrong. But I just, I don't know, I couldn't make my
:40:01. > :40:05.decisions on that kind of thinking. A lot of my friends are very
:40:06. > :40:08.concerned about the fact we give away so much information about
:40:09. > :40:14.ourselves very freely, but we don't think about the consequences. What
:40:15. > :40:18.power we are giving to someone else. Actor Enyeama Watson and others
:40:19. > :40:26.debate over sharing and the relationship between technology and
:40:27. > :40:32.democracy. I am optimistic about technology. I tend to think the
:40:33. > :40:35.Internet, it provides us with so much information, so much connection
:40:36. > :40:40.from person to person, it is a great thing. I never really stopped for a
:40:41. > :40:46.moment to think of any of the potential pitfalls this new
:40:47. > :40:51.technology might have. This film is a cautionary tale about those
:40:52. > :40:56.pitfalls. Most Americans don't want freedom, they want security, it is a
:40:57. > :41:06.simple bargain. Good girl, good girl. Incidentally, supplies the
:41:07. > :41:12.real pleasure of this act to cover chewing the scenery as a
:41:13. > :41:14.Machiavellian spy craft. Where is the modern battlefield soldier?
:41:15. > :41:17.Everywhere. Before we go, here's
:41:18. > :41:19.something to savour. The grammy-winning mezzo-soprano
:41:20. > :41:22.Joyce DiDomato is in the UK this week for a performance
:41:23. > :41:24.of her new collection, In War Peace -
:41:25. > :41:26.Harmony through Music. The album is all about the healing
:41:27. > :41:29.power of music in an epoch And we're lucky enough
:41:30. > :41:33.to have her here tonight, accompanied by the ensemble il
:41:34. > :42:26.Pomodoro, to perform MUSIC: "Handel's Lascia
:42:27. > :42:35.ch'io pianga."