:00:00. > :00:00.Governments of different political persuasions have tried to eradicate
:00:07. > :00:18.Tomorrow, Theresa May's Government will say how it hopes
:00:19. > :00:23.But do the solutions match the problem?
:00:24. > :00:27.We'll look at both sides of the argument.
:00:28. > :00:29.Also tonight, as government-backed forces take more territory,
:00:30. > :00:35.They captured the civilians, they took the activists,
:00:36. > :00:46.they shooted them immediately without any hesitation.
:00:47. > :00:50.For all his faults, he was a great man.
:00:51. > :00:52.Or should it be, for all his achievements, he was
:00:53. > :01:00.Tariq Ali and Peter Hitchens will argue that one out.
:01:01. > :01:05.A lot changed after the Brexit vote, quite apart from Brexit.
:01:06. > :01:08.Not least we got a new Government and a new ethos that the economic
:01:09. > :01:11.rules have to change, they've been tilted too far
:01:12. > :01:14.in favour of the well-to-do and have left hard-working,
:01:15. > :01:20.Now the big question is whether this Government or anyone else has
:01:21. > :01:22.an idea as to what to actually do, apart from making speeches.
:01:23. > :01:28.The Government is expected to publish its Green Paper
:01:29. > :01:31.on tackling what it sees as corporate excess,
:01:32. > :01:36.Will it force companies to reveal the gap between their CEO pay
:01:37. > :01:46.Or insist workers should have a role in the bosses' remuneration?
:01:47. > :01:51.The truth is, we've been banging on about this for some time.
:01:52. > :01:55.Executive pay generally, it could be argued that the bosses
:01:56. > :01:57.are creaming away money that should rightly go to the shareholders.
:01:58. > :02:00.Even I have had cause to talk about it.
:02:01. > :02:05.Well, a lot has changed since then, but chief executive
:02:06. > :02:11.In fact it several times higher than it's was back then.
:02:12. > :02:14.Bosses seem very good at controlling costs, except the costs of bosses.
:02:15. > :02:17.This is recognised as a problem by fans of capitalism
:02:18. > :02:29.Quite a bit has been tried in those intervening years to curb it and yet
:02:30. > :02:34.Look, I think there's been a succession over five or six years
:02:35. > :02:37.of pay outs that have not been in any one's interests.
:02:38. > :02:39.Some of the banks, I think, paid out disgracefully
:02:40. > :02:45.There was a time when one or two of them were paying three times
:02:46. > :02:48.more in bonuses to top executives than in total dividends
:02:49. > :02:53.That means the pension funds of which you and I are
:02:54. > :03:04.First on everybody's list of what to do is to force
:03:05. > :03:07.disclosure, Shine a light on what is happening.
:03:08. > :03:10.Companies have long had to reveal directors' pay.
:03:11. > :03:15.It was enshrined in law in 2002 and beefed up under the coalition.
:03:16. > :03:18.By publishing the pay ratio, the ratio between the total chief
:03:19. > :03:21.executive compensation and average worker pay,
:03:22. > :03:25.it will make companies think very carefully about how they're
:03:26. > :03:28.paying their chief executive and senior directors
:03:29. > :03:33.I think it will give real focus to that area which I think
:03:34. > :03:41.The second approach is to give more power to shareholders to thwart pay.
:03:42. > :03:46.The so-called say on pay gives shareholders limited power,
:03:47. > :03:49.a binding vote on the remuneration policy, every three years.
:03:50. > :03:54.But those voting shareholders are generally fund managers looking
:03:55. > :03:57.after our money but who are wrapped up in a City culture
:03:58. > :04:03.In the case of BP earlier this year, 59% of shareholders voted
:04:04. > :04:06.against the chief executive's ?14 million pay package
:04:07. > :04:08.and the company simply ignored the vote.
:04:09. > :04:11.But I think by getting shareholders involved right at the beginning
:04:12. > :04:14.of the process, and in fact give them the power to effectively
:04:15. > :04:16.approve the remuneration package, a shareholders' committee before it
:04:17. > :04:19.even gets to the AGM, you can deal with these issues early
:04:20. > :04:22.before it becomes a very public confrontation at the annual AGM.
:04:23. > :04:27.It might take really draconian ideas like pay caps to work.
:04:28. > :04:33.Simply not done, old boy, not in this country.
:04:34. > :04:36.I'll tell you why this is so difficult.
:04:37. > :04:39.Basically everybody, the whole sphere of society
:04:40. > :04:42.that is involved in setting executive pay has a shared sense
:04:43. > :04:44.of what the going rate for the Chief Executive of a big
:04:45. > :04:49.company is, it's in the millions of pounds.
:04:50. > :04:55.That culture or norm is very hard to dislodge.
:04:56. > :04:58.No single company believes it can do it on its own.
:04:59. > :05:04.Somehow, you have to reset everybody's expectations.
:05:05. > :05:08.So, is the 2016 attempt to rewrite the rules going to be any more
:05:09. > :05:12.And is executive pay the problem most people think?
:05:13. > :05:14.Joining me now is Sam Bowman, executive director of
:05:15. > :05:18.And Mariana Mazzucato, Professor of Economics
:05:19. > :05:28.Is it a problem, first of all? It's a problem. It's been getting worse.
:05:29. > :05:31.That's very important to say. You just said that you did this
:05:32. > :05:38.programme 18 years ago saying that there was a problem. 18 years ago
:05:39. > :05:45.the difference was 45-#1, the average worker earned 45 times less
:05:46. > :05:51.than CEOs. Today it's 180. Maybe it was wrong before. Sure. But this is
:05:52. > :05:55.about corporate governance. It's important not to criminalise this,
:05:56. > :05:59.as though it's just bad behaviour. What have we allowed in a particular
:06:00. > :06:06.type of capitalism, there's varieties of capitalism. This is
:06:07. > :06:10.shareholder-driven capitalism. Versus stake holding capitalism. The
:06:11. > :06:13.number one company in the world in telecoms is a Co-operative and
:06:14. > :06:19.doesn't have this big difference. Ericson as well. These are companies
:06:20. > :06:24.that have decided to boost share prices, to boost stock options and
:06:25. > :06:28.boost executive pay. That's a decision related to corporate
:06:29. > :06:32.governance. We have to question this corporate governance model. You come
:06:33. > :06:35.from a more Libertarian angle. I assume you'll say it is up to the
:06:36. > :06:41.shareholders who own the company to decide what the remuneration is, am
:06:42. > :06:45.I right? You are right. A more interesting question is - are you
:06:46. > :06:49.right? Is the increase in the ratio simply because shareholders have
:06:50. > :06:53.become more lazy? Maybe these committees are better at giving
:06:54. > :06:56.themselves money? Or perhaps it's because globalisation means having a
:06:57. > :07:02.good executive is more important than 20 years ago? We look at the
:07:03. > :07:05.evidence. We look at the share price changes when CEOs either die or
:07:06. > :07:08.leave their companies suddenly. We can see whether that's changed more
:07:09. > :07:13.dramatically in the last couple of years than before. It turns out when
:07:14. > :07:17.we look at the evidence over not just the last 20 years, but 50
:07:18. > :07:21.years, there's been a steady upward change in the importance of a CEO to
:07:22. > :07:28.a company. You're not telling me that these people need to be paid -
:07:29. > :07:35.Yes, I am. You don't need to pay them that to get them to do the job.
:07:36. > :07:39.In 45 minutes, one earns what the average worker earns in a year -
:07:40. > :07:47.that's not excessive? The importance of a CEO is huge to a firm. If you
:07:48. > :07:50.were Sony or Samsung 15 years ago. Samsung invested in smartphones.
:07:51. > :07:57.Sony didn't. They made the right call. CEOs the decisions they make
:07:58. > :08:05.matter enormously. We look at share prices. When Burberry lost their CEO
:08:06. > :08:09.they lost ?500 million in one day. You're not going to dispute the fact
:08:10. > :08:12.that they make a big difference to corporations presumably? Many
:08:13. > :08:18.companies that have this excessive difference, I think it's excessive,
:08:19. > :08:21.have not, during the time that this pay difference has increased, become
:08:22. > :08:24.more productive, produced better products. If you look at the
:08:25. > :08:27.pharmaceutical - It's not a question of the company. It's the question of
:08:28. > :08:31.the executive. Is the executive more important than 20 years ago? Because
:08:32. > :08:35.of globalisation the answer is yes. This goes back to the theory of
:08:36. > :08:38.where wealth comes from. The stake holder model doesn't say that
:08:39. > :08:41.executives are not important, it admits there are other people who
:08:42. > :08:44.are also important. For example the workers, would do sit on the board
:08:45. > :08:49.in many parts of the world. This isn't just a big idea that Theresa
:08:50. > :08:54.May had. Scandinavia, Germany and Austria, where I was last week, this
:08:55. > :08:58.is an admission that there's different collective actors that
:08:59. > :09:03.take part in making companies successful. If you're right, then
:09:04. > :09:08.all stock markets, all institutional investors with billions of pounds on
:09:09. > :09:16.the line, other people's money and their own money are wrong. Adam
:09:17. > :09:20.Smith, that your institute was named after, what he meant by the free
:09:21. > :09:26.market was free from rent, free from rent. We're talking about massive
:09:27. > :09:29.rent seeking. I tell you what - Talking about value creation as
:09:30. > :09:33.though the executives have, over time, become more important for the
:09:34. > :09:41.creation of value. That's what the evidence tells uses. Wait -- tells
:09:42. > :09:45.us. Wait, wait. I did want to get into the practicalities. Let's
:09:46. > :09:50.accept that your objective is to narrow the gap and get executive pay
:09:51. > :09:55.down. We can carry on afterwards, do you think the kind of things you've
:09:56. > :09:58.heard about publishing ratios, putting a worker on the remuneration
:09:59. > :10:02.committee, does that match the scale of it? It's not a worker. It's trade
:10:03. > :10:05.unions, yes. They're very important in negotiating and also thinking
:10:06. > :10:10.about future investments. They should be on the boards, not just to
:10:11. > :10:14.limit the pay. This is also, though it sounds defensive, this is of the
:10:15. > :10:19.opportunities that are needed so when profits of companies are
:10:20. > :10:23.re-invested in the future, in innovation, this is good for society
:10:24. > :10:26.as a whole. Workers on the board would be fighting for that as
:10:27. > :10:31.opposed to things like share buy backs, which have increased
:10:32. > :10:34.massively. Workers on the board is a terrible poll similarity it's been
:10:35. > :10:39.done in Germany. It's failed. One of the reasons Volkswagen went down is
:10:40. > :10:44.because the board's atmosphere was poisonous. The chief executive
:10:45. > :10:50.collaborated with the union represents and drove up costs. We
:10:51. > :10:55.should encourage firms to give stakes in the firm. Publishing
:10:56. > :10:58.ratios, does it carry the risk if you publish the ratio of the
:10:59. > :11:02.executive pay to the average, they will outsource the low paid staff,
:11:03. > :11:06.as lots of companies do, in order that the average pay of the
:11:07. > :11:11.remaining staff looks higher. This area is replete with perverse
:11:12. > :11:15.incentives. Why should they publish these payments of the differences?
:11:16. > :11:19.Not because this is crim that behaviour, but -- criminal
:11:20. > :11:23.behaviour, but as an indicator of something that is problematic. We
:11:24. > :11:29.should focus on what's happening in the companies. Are they investing
:11:30. > :11:32.the profits in the future growth? We have record level hording,
:11:33. > :11:37.financialisation, using profits to boost your stock options which is
:11:38. > :11:43.the main way these executives get paid. It's not that executives
:11:44. > :11:48.aren't good. It's how important the executive is to the well being of
:11:49. > :11:53.the company. You are generally seen on the right of politics, are you
:11:54. > :12:00.worried by the drift of where society's going. Clearly, populism,
:12:01. > :12:04.governments coming in are saying we've had enough. We hear about
:12:05. > :12:08.post-truth politics. The evidence is clear that executives matter a lot.
:12:09. > :12:11.What the Government's doing, maybe Theresa May believes in what she's
:12:12. > :12:14.doing. More likely, she's trying to win votes. It's really sad that
:12:15. > :12:18.very, very few people, even executives themselves, because
:12:19. > :12:22.they're worried about how it looks to the public, are willing to say
:12:23. > :12:25.look at the evidence, look at the importance of good CEOs because of
:12:26. > :12:30.globalisation now, to the well being of their firms. We have to leave it
:12:31. > :12:33.there. They're getting paid, so they're more valuable, that's wrong.
:12:34. > :12:42.That's not what we're saying... Thank you very much indeed.
:12:43. > :12:44.These are dark days for Syria's rebels in Aleppo.
:12:45. > :12:47.In the last two days, Syrian government forces have
:12:48. > :12:49.captured more than a third of rebel-held territory in eastern
:12:50. > :12:53.Assad's forces seem to have all the cards, and it could be
:12:54. > :12:56.that we are heading to some kind of last phase in what has
:12:57. > :13:05.How far as the situation deteriorated? This war's been going
:13:06. > :13:08.on for years, terrible suffering, a stalemate in so many ways. We have
:13:09. > :13:12.seen in recent weeks quite a big change in Aleppo, what was the
:13:13. > :13:16.commercial powerhouse of Syria in many ways, the great prize. If we
:13:17. > :13:20.look at a map, we can see what's been happening since the summer.
:13:21. > :13:25.You've got the crimson there, the rebel control and the green for the
:13:26. > :13:30.government control. The yellow area are Kurdish group YPG who are
:13:31. > :13:35.effectively allied to Assad in this battle. Over the summer, we've see
:13:36. > :13:39.shrinkage on various fronts, the Syrian army has pushed the rebels
:13:40. > :13:43.back and made that pocket smaller and smaller. Then this dramatic
:13:44. > :13:47.change in the last few days, hundreds of air strikes, advances
:13:48. > :13:51.from the east. That whole area in purple now gone for the rebels.
:13:52. > :14:00.We've seen thousands of people on the move. We can look at video. Some
:14:01. > :14:04.of these people heading towards that Kurdish area, seen as being in some
:14:05. > :14:09.way not as dangerous for them having been on the rebel side. Others we've
:14:10. > :14:14.seen boarding these notorious green buses that come to take people into
:14:15. > :14:18.Assad territory. This has happened in many places like Homs and other
:14:19. > :14:21.cities, when deals have been done to take the civilians out, when frankly
:14:22. > :14:27.they've had enough. It is a big change. People in the city, many of
:14:28. > :14:31.them feel the end is near. The end is near for Aleppo. What's
:14:32. > :14:37.the significance of that in the bigger Syrian Civil War? It is very
:14:38. > :14:41.significant in itself. President Assad is preoccupied with gaining
:14:42. > :14:46.the prize. All sorts of things are lining up in his favour. Until the
:14:47. > :14:49.US elections he thought he might deal with a Nato no-fly zone in the
:14:50. > :14:53.north of the country. He knows that's not going to happen now.
:14:54. > :14:57.President Obama has been pretty quiet about this. President Trump
:14:58. > :15:01.has promised to defund the so-called moderate opposition. Things are
:15:02. > :15:05.stacking up against them on all sides. Possibility that they may
:15:06. > :15:09.even go into some sort of compact with the Russians, particularly
:15:10. > :15:13.against Isis in the east of Syria. Things are really stacking up
:15:14. > :15:17.against the armed opposition groups, but as always in this conflict,
:15:18. > :15:21.there aren't enough people who support the Assad government to
:15:22. > :15:25.really take control of all those areas they capture. In that sense,
:15:26. > :15:28.there is no military solution. #12k34r thanks very much.
:15:29. > :15:32.Earlier tonight I spoke to Ismail Alabdullah, who volunteers
:15:33. > :15:34.with the White Helmets, a rescue organisation
:15:35. > :15:41.I spoke to him two months ago and conditions were very bad then.
:15:42. > :15:59.Actually the situation has become worse than ever, and I mean ever.
:16:00. > :16:02.Since 15 days until now, Aleppo city under heaviest bombing ever.
:16:03. > :16:13.Nonstop bombing from the very beginning in the morning up
:16:14. > :16:17.until midnight by all kinds of weapons.
:16:18. > :16:21.The bombing intensified more and more.
:16:22. > :16:23.You're sounding exhausted, have you been up for
:16:24. > :16:30.Actually I was trapped by the bombing, I couldn't move
:16:31. > :16:43.When I tried to move, another mortar hit my place there.
:16:44. > :16:51.I survived, I ran quickly to somewhere safe.
:16:52. > :17:00.That time, another warplane dropped a rocket and a big explosion.
:17:01. > :17:04.This situation, how can anyone do his job, to save
:17:05. > :17:11.It's appalling, what you're describing.
:17:12. > :17:22.You and I spoke two months ago and I asked whether you thought
:17:23. > :17:24.it would be better to get out,
:17:25. > :17:28.And you said no, not right now, that was two months ago.
:17:29. > :17:31.And then you said if it gets much worse, maybe it will change.
:17:32. > :17:37.What is the mood as to how to respond?
:17:38. > :17:41.Now, most of the people want to leave the city.
:17:42. > :17:48.Most of the people want to leave the city because they know now,
:17:49. > :17:54.Russians, Assad's forces and maybe the new president of the US,
:17:55. > :18:03.all of them want to kill those people who said no to Assad.
:18:04. > :18:10.Now, the international community has let us down, let the people down.
:18:11. > :18:13.Even this, even food kits for the poor people,
:18:14. > :18:16.for the widows and for the orphans, medication, medicine
:18:17. > :18:26.Even to get new doctors to the city.
:18:27. > :18:30.Evacuate the injured people, they didn't respond.
:18:31. > :18:43.Now, all the world let us down and we are facing big...
:18:44. > :18:47.I don't know, maybe a big massacre will be in the coming days
:18:48. > :18:51.Do you think if you put up a white flag, if you put up
:18:52. > :18:54.the white flag and say, we surrender, do you think
:18:55. > :18:57.the Syrian forces, the Russian forces would recognise that white
:18:58. > :19:00.flag and protect you or do you fear that you would be
:19:01. > :19:06.This has happened many times, it isn't the first time.
:19:07. > :19:11.That happened in Daraa, that happened in Al Ghouta,
:19:12. > :19:15.that happened, many massacres from Assad's forces,
:19:16. > :19:19.and that happened today in one of the neighbourhoods
:19:20. > :19:24.which was taken control of by Assad's forces.
:19:25. > :19:27.They captured the civilians, they took the activists,
:19:28. > :19:30.they shooted them immediately without any hesitation.
:19:31. > :19:36.Thank you very much for talking to us and I hope to talk
:19:37. > :19:46.A lot has been said about Fidel Castro in the last three days,
:19:47. > :19:48.with the usual competing narratives of his life.
:19:49. > :19:50.Looking back on his record, many on the left are keen
:19:51. > :19:53.to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his
:19:54. > :19:58.Of course, they wouldn't extend that benefit to a Conservative prime
:19:59. > :20:01.minister and find it unconscionable when right-wing figures defend
:20:02. > :20:04.So we'll discuss what makes some offences forgivable,
:20:05. > :20:09.But much of the recent commentary has been from those
:20:10. > :20:14.One person who did was our own Stephen Smith, who wrote
:20:15. > :20:16.a book about the country and its then president.
:20:17. > :20:29.There's an argument that the 60s began not in 1963
:20:30. > :20:33.but in '59 with the Cuban Revolution.
:20:34. > :20:36.In the 60s, you were nothing if there wasn't
:20:37. > :20:43.And Fidel Castro, Che Guevara and the others were lucky
:20:44. > :20:45.in their court artist artist, Alberto Korda, in
:20:46. > :20:51.His image of Che appeared on the walls of student digs more
:20:52. > :20:57.And even inspired revolutionaries close to home, not
:20:58. > :21:10.I was never keen on T-shirts and badges at the time
:21:11. > :21:13.of the anti-apartheid struggle and the radicalism in which I grew
:21:14. > :21:16.up in British politics in the late 60s and 70s.
:21:17. > :21:20.I always, I was always interested in the Cuban revolution,
:21:21. > :21:24.very sympathetic to it, as a battle for justice
:21:25. > :21:27.against a fascist dictator, but I never had a starry eyed view
:21:28. > :21:34.The world wasn't used to seeing political leaders
:21:35. > :21:45.They embodied a revolutionary chic that just had not been seen before.
:21:46. > :21:50.You had to think of the traditional men in power, and they were men,
:21:51. > :21:54.tending to be dressed in suits, definitely without the beards.
:21:55. > :21:57.There was something different about these revolutionaries
:21:58. > :22:01.who weren't afraid to dress in fatigues and carry rifles,
:22:02. > :22:10.But they also, I think, in terms of the culture,
:22:11. > :22:12.they encouraged people to come to the island,
:22:13. > :22:18.Cuba has always been cool, though perhaps less
:22:19. > :22:28.The classic film, Soya Cuba, I Am Cuba, which was using long
:22:29. > :22:40.uncut shots 50 years before Birdman, and portrays the last years
:22:41. > :22:48.of the Batista regime, when the island was a flash pot
:22:49. > :22:51.In Latin America, Cuba showed what was possible.
:22:52. > :22:53.After the Cuban revolution, change and alternative
:22:54. > :22:56.to capitalism, an alternative to the kind of dictatorships that,
:22:57. > :22:58.like Batista's, like Trujillo's, seemed possible and this
:22:59. > :23:00.was a radically new opportunity for Latin America compared
:23:01. > :23:08.Alongside Cuba's much vaunted achievements in health
:23:09. > :23:13.and education at home, anti-apartheid campaigners credit
:23:14. > :23:15.Castro's decision to send troops to Africa with adding
:23:16. > :23:26.I think he played a very important role in the anti-apartheid struggle
:23:27. > :23:29.by defeating the South African army with his Cuban troops in Angola,
:23:30. > :23:38.I also think he did lots of fantastic things for health
:23:39. > :23:41.and free education as well, and conquering poverty in a region
:23:42. > :23:44.where poverty and bad health and education was rife.
:23:45. > :23:52.But I cannot justify his human rights abuses.
:23:53. > :23:56.Over a pub in London tonight, the Cuba Solidarity Campaign pressed
:23:57. > :23:57.ahead with film night, despite the official mourning
:23:58. > :24:08.They don't doubt Castro's contribution.
:24:09. > :24:11.I think his legacy will not just be on education,
:24:12. > :24:14.on health and the social life of Cuba, which has improved
:24:15. > :24:19.Nothing compared with the bordello that it was before.
:24:20. > :24:23.The revolution is about more than one person.
:24:24. > :24:27.The revolution has brought forth a society, a model
:24:28. > :24:35.of society that will endure because it is a model that works.
:24:36. > :24:40.Castro famously claimed that history would absolve him.
:24:41. > :24:42.What's less well-known is the riposte from a dissident
:24:43. > :24:45.Cuban writer who settled in London and said that history
:24:46. > :24:52.In a moment we'll debate the attitudes of the British
:24:53. > :25:03.from France over the internet by Erik Durschmied, a journalist
:25:04. > :25:06.who went to find Castro in the mountains of the Sierra Maestra
:25:07. > :25:08.in the autumn of 1958, before the revolution,
:25:09. > :25:10.where he conducted one of the first interviews with him.
:25:11. > :25:26.There is not communism or Marxism in our ideas.
:25:27. > :25:29.Our political philosophy is representative democracy,
:25:30. > :25:40.and social justice in a well-planned economy.
:25:41. > :25:43.You didn't think you would hear that from Fidel Castro!
:25:44. > :25:55.Good evening, what is the story, how did you find him? Very simple, I
:25:56. > :25:59.took my old car it was an old folks for them and I drove from Canada
:26:00. > :26:09.into Cuba into the mountains -- it was an old Volkswagen. I thought I
:26:10. > :26:13.would get hold of this man. I got out of the car and I told him who I
:26:14. > :26:19.was and he said, come with us. It took us three weeks to get up the
:26:20. > :26:25.hill, I guess they took us on a very tortuous road but I've finally made
:26:26. > :26:30.it and got to the top of the hill and I is the Nene knew who he was
:26:31. > :26:39.because he was so much taller and impressive compared Mac anybody
:26:40. > :26:43.else. -- than anybody else. He was the great manipulator, he was full
:26:44. > :26:50.of himself, he believed in his own gospel, I guess and at that time I'm
:26:51. > :26:59.sure he was not a Cobeno because there was certainly no indication in
:27:00. > :27:05.his camp -- not a communist. It was like an aboriginal tribe living in
:27:06. > :27:11.trees and the whole myth about the great forces of Castro, there were
:27:12. > :27:20.never more than 200 people at the most in the camp. There was no other
:27:21. > :27:25.front. Remarkable that the merry band could go on and take the
:27:26. > :27:29.country. What were the attributes, when you observed him, did he look
:27:30. > :27:37.like a brutal man, a thoughtful man? Or just an alpha male lording it
:27:38. > :27:44.over a gang? At the beginning, I thought of him as a sort of band it
:27:45. > :27:49.up in the mountings, a revolutionary, I guess. Bans a
:27:50. > :28:00.bandit. I'd never met a revolutionary before that. He was
:28:01. > :28:03.quite years older than I am. But we struck it off quite well and I
:28:04. > :28:09.stayed several months with him. It was quite an amazing time. I've
:28:10. > :28:13.finally got to know him well. I'm sure he was very sincere in what he
:28:14. > :28:20.was trying to do. What happened later to him is something else but
:28:21. > :28:29.in these days in the mountains I think he was, he was like Moses
:28:30. > :28:33.coming down from the mountain. Wow. He had one weapon that nobody
:28:34. > :28:41.understood at the time, neither the Americans and certainly not Batista,
:28:42. > :28:49.he had his voice, which was on the radio every night. Were you fooled
:28:50. > :28:57.by him, seduced by him? Did you find yourself going native and deporting
:28:58. > :29:03.the guy? It sounds like it a bit! I was certainly impressed by him. He
:29:04. > :29:13.was so charismatic. It was incredible. He's just... I guess he
:29:14. > :29:20.manipulated everybody. I think at the time, and I said it many times,
:29:21. > :29:27.and the time he was really sincere. I've met him on a few occasions late
:29:28. > :29:34.on, he invited me back and opened the doors for me. But it was a
:29:35. > :29:39.different man, it wasn't any more that man that I had lived with and
:29:40. > :29:43.met up in the mountains. It's interesting because the romantic
:29:44. > :29:48.myth of the rabble in the mountings plotting to oust the brutal
:29:49. > :29:53.dictator, that myth has lasted. It may not have lasted for you but it
:29:54. > :29:58.has lasted for many people. And maybe that is wiped some people, on
:29:59. > :29:59.the left, have overlooked things that they wouldn't overlook for
:30:00. > :30:08.other people. I think he changed. Whether he was
:30:09. > :30:12.pushed into this change by the Americans who didn't understand him,
:30:13. > :30:18.I mean, you know, when you came to Havana in these days, I mean I only
:30:19. > :30:26.went through Havana on my way into the mountains. But it was a sort of
:30:27. > :30:33.bordellos and casinos and the rich and the happy. At the same time, he
:30:34. > :30:37.talked on the radio every night and he said, "I'm going to do something
:30:38. > :30:41.else. I'm going to change this country. We're going to be free.
:30:42. > :30:50.We're not going to be any more linked to the Americans." There was
:30:51. > :30:58.this joke, story going in Cuba about what's the longest cow in the world,
:30:59. > :31:03.and the answer was - the head is in Cuba and the udders are milked in
:31:04. > :31:11.the United States. That basically was the way that the Cubans felt, I
:31:12. > :31:18.guess. He managed to talk to them on the radio, because even when they
:31:19. > :31:26.finally won the revolution, I am convinced there were not more than
:31:27. > :31:28.400 fighters. Batista had an army of 40,000. Thank you very much.
:31:29. > :31:31.Joining me now is Tariq Ali, who, among many other things,
:31:32. > :31:34.has written the introduction to a book of Fidel
:31:35. > :31:38.We're also joined by Peter Hitchens, who is a columnist for
:31:39. > :31:45.Just picking up from that kind of revolutionary in the hills, do you
:31:46. > :31:49.think that will shape the romantic love for the man in the years after?
:31:50. > :31:55.People wanted to believe it. Much of it was a myth from the start.
:31:56. > :32:00.Batista was really overthrown by the Americans, who withdrew arms
:32:01. > :32:05.supplies and told him he would have to quit. Castro simply moved into
:32:06. > :32:12.the vacuum left by the collapse. The interesting thing about that is how
:32:13. > :32:19.pit filly small Castro's band of brothers were. Yet he used
:32:20. > :32:27.expressions such as moss coming down from the Mo -- Moses coming down
:32:28. > :32:32.from the mountain. It's pathetic. Why do people want to swoon over
:32:33. > :32:38.him? He was a young guy and maybe - OK, it is just one of those strange
:32:39. > :32:41.things which people seem to want to believe in great leaders and great
:32:42. > :32:46.men. You were a swooner, weren't you? You definitely swooned. I read
:32:47. > :32:54.you some stuff. You put your name to aler in the Guardian about 11 years
:32:55. > :32:58.ago. There has not been a single case of disappearance corpsure or
:32:59. > :33:04.extra judicial prosecution since 1959 in Cuba. Is that true? Those
:33:05. > :33:08.were the figures we obtained before I signed that letters. Why don't we
:33:09. > :33:14.start with what Cuba was before the revolution? It was effectively an
:33:15. > :33:19.American brothel run by the Mafia, seen as an American colony. The
:33:20. > :33:22.Cuban revolutionaries, partially because the Americans withdrew
:33:23. > :33:27.support from the dictator organised more and more support. It wasn't
:33:28. > :33:32.just 200 people. The July 26 movement became a huge mass movement
:33:33. > :33:36.and got rid of that. The reason for the support Castro enjoyed was
:33:37. > :33:40.largely because people didn't want to go back being what they were, an
:33:41. > :33:46.American colony. That is the key thing to understand. Like all
:33:47. > :33:52.revolutions, they kill the one king and then they have to put something
:33:53. > :33:56.in its place. But they didn't want to become a Soviet Colony. None of
:33:57. > :34:01.that had any idea that was going to happen. Castro pretended or
:34:02. > :34:04.genuinely Ted, and we don't know what the truth is, that he wasn't a
:34:05. > :34:08.Communist and wasn't going to do this. Yet very quickly they became a
:34:09. > :34:13.Soviet Colony, in which opposition to Castro was treated with the most
:34:14. > :34:18.extraordinary brutality. It may be that people didn't officially
:34:19. > :34:22.disappear, but I have to say, they were certainly tortured. One of the
:34:23. > :34:28.Castro's original comrades and very much a strong opponent of Batista
:34:29. > :34:31.when he said to Castro, I don't support your turn towards Soviet
:34:32. > :34:36.Communism, Castro threw him into prison for 20 years, 16 in solitary
:34:37. > :34:40.confinement and arranged for him to be tortured. I have to finish,
:34:41. > :34:45.because the torture issue is here. His own account of this says his
:34:46. > :34:53.genitals were pierced during his imprisonment, if that's not torture,
:34:54. > :34:58.I don't know what is. Do you accept that there was solitary confinement,
:34:59. > :35:02.gay people sent for re-education. Hang on one at a time. Why one at a
:35:03. > :35:07.time. They go together or they don't. I don't deny that. I think
:35:08. > :35:12.the way gay people were treated was appalling. I think the way in which
:35:13. > :35:17.political prisoners at that time were treated was not great either.
:35:18. > :35:23.If Mike Pence did that in the United States, if Mike Pence in Indiana had
:35:24. > :35:27.been sending - you would be the first complaining and protesting and
:35:28. > :35:34.saying this man is a monster. I would also see which side I'm on.
:35:35. > :35:37.This is it. I was on the side and am on the side of the best things that
:35:38. > :35:41.revolution has done. I don't deny that at all. Of course, it's not
:35:42. > :35:48.flawless. They made huge number of mistakes. They, many of them, admit
:35:49. > :35:53.it, and it wasn't, they never pretended they were a democracy. It
:35:54. > :35:58.was essentialally a revolutionary dictatorship. I would say these
:35:59. > :36:02.dictatorships are social. They do a great deal for their people on
:36:03. > :36:07.health, on education - Hang on, you've just admitted all this stuff.
:36:08. > :36:14.Hang on, first of all Castro did talk about representative democracy.
:36:15. > :36:17.He did. Then he simply, I think said he was an located president. He did
:36:18. > :36:24.say that. He did make promises of that kind. Most people believed he
:36:25. > :36:28.would be actually running a freer government than the Batista
:36:29. > :36:32.government. It was worse than that. You're going over the top. It was
:36:33. > :36:35.not worse than that. If it had been worse than that, he would have been
:36:36. > :36:40.toppled and when the Americans invaded him at the Bay of Pigs, why
:36:41. > :36:47.wasn't there a mass uprising, which the Cuban emigres had promises the
:36:48. > :36:54.Americans. There's a huge difference between discontented in a regime and
:36:55. > :36:58.having a mass uprising. You're a generous, thoughtful person with a
:36:59. > :37:02.sense of humour and proportion, but you won't take the step of saying
:37:03. > :37:08.whatever good this regime may or may not have done, and it's questionable
:37:09. > :37:13.whether it did - Any good at all? I haven't finished the question I was
:37:14. > :37:17.going to answer. Quick, quick. The actions of Castro towards his
:37:18. > :37:23.opposition were indefensible. Torture, forcing people to eat their
:37:24. > :37:27.own excrement, locking people up 20 years for disagreeing with him. I
:37:28. > :37:33.want him time to answer. Pinochet did a lot of those things. You don't
:37:34. > :37:37.say for all his faults... Hang on, he wiped out 30,000 people for God
:37:38. > :37:44.sake. How can you compare Pinochet to Castro. Because... Why mention
:37:45. > :37:49.him? It's about... Which government supported Pinochet. It's because the
:37:50. > :37:55.side you're on, you're willing to forgive all the things. People say
:37:56. > :37:58.the same about Pinochet. No, even Pinochet's admirers don't say the
:37:59. > :38:03.same things about him, by the way. They now accept what he did. Chile
:38:04. > :38:07.is doing what it's doing to obliterate that legacy, which was
:38:08. > :38:13.backed by the West. Can't you just recognise - This enormous rage you
:38:14. > :38:17.get into about Pinochet's killing, but what about Castro's judicial
:38:18. > :38:20.murders, the show trials, the shootings, the repeated firing
:38:21. > :38:25.squads during the first months of his time in power? Utterly lawless.
:38:26. > :38:31.Hang on. You must have the last word. I want Tariq to have the last
:38:32. > :38:36.word. The Cubans made a revolution. The Americans tried to stop it. The
:38:37. > :38:41.Americans punished them for nationalising all the big American
:38:42. > :38:44.companies and liberating their country socially and economically
:38:45. > :38:52.that they made mistakes, we know. But you know, the mistakes made by
:38:53. > :38:58.people, dictators in South America, backed by the United States... You
:38:59. > :39:02.use the word mistakes were made in a passive way. These things were worse
:39:03. > :39:16.than anything the United States did. The worst of anything recently has
:39:17. > :39:23.been the torture at out by who? What use is that as an argument? You
:39:24. > :39:28.object to it quite rightly because you object to all torture. Yes. You
:39:29. > :39:33.don't seem to object to it has so much when Castro is involved. No.
:39:34. > :39:39.This is not true. I object to it, but I say when discussing the Cuban
:39:40. > :39:45.revolution, one has to discuss a great deal. And not be completely
:39:46. > :39:49.captured by ideology. Is there anything that excuses torture. No.
:39:50. > :39:51.Why do you excuse it when Castro does it? We need to leave it there.
:39:52. > :39:54.Thanks both very much. Fascinating. Straight after Newsnight
:39:55. > :39:57.you can watch Fidel Castro, America's Nemesis, a special
:39:58. > :40:02.on Castro's life, here on BBC Two. That's all we've got
:40:03. > :40:04.time for this evening. I'm back tomorrow. Have a very good
:40:05. > :40:19.night. Hi there. It's going to be a cold
:40:20. > :40:23.start to the day across England and Wales. A few places will be minus
:40:24. > :40:24.six, maybe even