05/12/2016

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:00:09. > :00:27.Good grief, does that leave HIM to be the one picking up the pieces?

:00:28. > :00:30.It's been a difficult year for the EU, and it just got

:00:31. > :00:33.Are the Brussels institutions capable of recognising

:00:34. > :00:35.a crisis when it hits them, and then responding to it?

:00:36. > :00:38.We'll hear the view from Vienna and Rome where votes

:00:39. > :00:40.have just taken place And ask this commissioner how

:00:41. > :00:47.Also tonight, you may have seen these aerial shots

:00:48. > :01:01.We meet the Syrians in the city who are filming them.

:01:02. > :01:07.And after the riots in 2001, we had reports into social

:01:08. > :01:23.Are we moving forward, or going round in circles?

:01:24. > :01:27.We'd all seen it coming, but the deed was done yesterday.

:01:28. > :01:31.Italian voters chucked out their prime minister Matteo Renzi,

:01:32. > :01:34.and threw out his plans to make the constitution more decisive.

:01:35. > :01:36.Economically, it makes reform harder, making it more difficult

:01:37. > :01:40.Politically it empowers the populist Five Star

:01:41. > :01:44.Movement which wants a referendum on the euro.

:01:45. > :01:47.And the political and economic uncertainty adds to the financial

:01:48. > :01:50.pressure on Italy's damaged banking system.

:01:51. > :01:52.The implications for Italy are huge, the ramifications

:01:53. > :01:58.The only good news for the Brussels elite was the fact that Austria

:01:59. > :02:00.turned away from the far right candidate and elected

:02:01. > :02:11.We can join Gabriel Gatehouse in Vienna and Mark Urban in Rome.

:02:12. > :02:20.Let's start with Austria and the Brussels elite is breathing a sigh

:02:21. > :02:25.of relief. But the glasses only 54% full because 40s 6% of the

:02:26. > :02:36.population voted for someone on the far right. -- 46%. It is not the end

:02:37. > :02:39.of the road for the far right Freedom party because there are

:02:40. > :02:45.likely to be elections next year and they could win the more powerful

:02:46. > :02:49.Chancellor post instead. Austria really is not the most important

:02:50. > :02:52.piece of this puzzle. There will be two elections in the first half of

:02:53. > :02:57.next year that potentially will be fundamental to the future of the

:02:58. > :03:02.European project. The first in the Netherlands where Goethe builders,

:03:03. > :03:06.with his deeply Eurosceptic group, is leading in the polls and then of

:03:07. > :03:12.course the French presidential election with Marine Le Pen almost

:03:13. > :03:17.certain to reach the second round run-off. Couple that with what is

:03:18. > :03:20.going on in Italy and some pretty Eurosceptic administration is

:03:21. > :03:25.already in place in countries like Poland and Hungary and you have

:03:26. > :03:29.something that is quite combustible. These groups do not all agree on

:03:30. > :03:32.their critique of the EU, they do not want their own version of the

:03:33. > :03:36.heart Brexit, they do not even all want to leave the euro but they do

:03:37. > :03:44.want to reimagine their relationship with the union. I hesitate to make

:03:45. > :03:46.the comparison but in the past few weeks I have been forcibly reminded

:03:47. > :03:53.of something that Gorbachev once said about perestroika, but the

:03:54. > :03:59.soviet union was like a big rusty piece of machinery and he said I

:04:00. > :04:01.wanted just to tinker with it a bit and loosen the screws but then the

:04:02. > :04:04.whole thing began to shatter and shake, the screws came loose and all

:04:05. > :04:17.of a sudden the whole thing collapsed. A good metaphor! Let's go

:04:18. > :04:23.to Rome. Matteo Renzi will stay on for a few days, what happens next?

:04:24. > :04:28.What is clear from the referendum, which after all was on quite an

:04:29. > :04:32.obscure package of constitutional reforms, is there is a huge

:04:33. > :04:38.undercurrent of discontent with politics as usual here and in

:04:39. > :04:42.particular with economics as usual. A 70% turnout on the referendum

:04:43. > :04:47.vote. Once Matteo Renzi has gone through these next few days to put

:04:48. > :04:51.the budget through, the question is how soon can there be an election in

:04:52. > :04:55.this country. I have heard people saying between February and April,

:04:56. > :04:59.but there is not the right legal machinery in place to do that yet

:05:00. > :05:03.because it is all up in the air because of the package of reforms

:05:04. > :05:07.that was going through. That means crisis for the next few weeks.

:05:08. > :05:12.Pressure on the banks and then at the end of it, and election in which

:05:13. > :05:14.two of the three parties losing in the polls say they want to take

:05:15. > :05:32.Italy out of the euro. As this most unusual of political

:05:33. > :05:35.years draws to a close Italy becomes another place where something

:05:36. > :05:42.exceptional was happening. Government with a large majority

:05:43. > :05:48.upended by a referendum. A leader routed, his friends argue by his own

:05:49. > :05:52.sense of honour. There's a lesson that Matteo Renzi gave to the

:05:53. > :05:59.political establishment in Italy no one resigns. And nobody really wins

:06:00. > :06:05.elections or loses Rab referendum and everyone remains seated in his

:06:06. > :06:12.chair. And Matteo Renzi took political responsibility,

:06:13. > :06:17.accountability. That is an English word with no translation in Italian.

:06:18. > :06:24.So Prime Minister gets flushed away but that is far from the end this.

:06:25. > :06:27.Matteo Renzi was in the middle of remaking Italy's electoral Lawes and

:06:28. > :06:32.help people are represented in their democratic institutions. And that

:06:33. > :06:36.what has not been completed meaning that they cannot just have a fresh

:06:37. > :06:40.general election tomorrow. Add to that the fact that the country has

:06:41. > :06:45.got to pass a national budget before the year is out, and you have a deep

:06:46. > :06:48.crisis with no one really in control.

:06:49. > :06:57.People have gathered outside the Prime Minister ill Palace to watch

:06:58. > :07:01.it play. Matteo Renzi was hoisted not just by constitutional arguments

:07:02. > :07:09.say his opponents but the apparent inability of Italy to pull itself

:07:10. > :07:12.out of the economic doldrums. TRANSLATION: The government in

:07:13. > :07:17.recent years has not delivered on its promises to Italians. And so

:07:18. > :07:25.turnout was very high, higher than at local elections six months ago.

:07:26. > :07:30.That is because citizens wanted to say no, that is enough with this

:07:31. > :07:34.government, that is enough of my terror Renfe, with Europe, the banks

:07:35. > :07:38.and Angela Merkel. Tonight it emerged that Matteo Renzi has been

:07:39. > :07:46.asked to stay on a few days longer to finalise Italy's budget for 2017.

:07:47. > :07:52.Saha along with the new government had to put fresh electoral Lawes in

:07:53. > :07:59.place, as the markets I upped the tottering Italian banks. Not so

:08:00. > :08:03.long, I do believe there's usually a measurable financial markets take

:08:04. > :08:13.the position a little bit before the event, as usual. And now they are in

:08:14. > :08:18.some kind of stand-by position. But real answers must be given by Italy

:08:19. > :08:21.as the country, starting with the president of the Republic trying to

:08:22. > :08:28.arrange another government with specific tasks, the first

:08:29. > :08:35.immediately to pass the budget law for 2017. That must be by December.

:08:36. > :08:42.And to have a new electoral law secondly to go to new elections and

:08:43. > :08:47.give Italy a little bit stronger political government, posted by

:08:48. > :08:55.Italian citizens. And waiting in the wings is this

:08:56. > :08:59.man. Beppe Grillo, leader of the Five Star Movement. They campaigned

:09:00. > :09:02.against Matteo Renzi in the referendum and they are well placed

:09:03. > :09:08.for any general election. They're complaining to take Italy out of the

:09:09. > :09:14.euro. How real is that threat now? It is clear that the Five Star

:09:15. > :09:20.Movement wants to get Italy out of the eurozone. And this is the

:09:21. > :09:26.paradox of the coalition which supported a note to the

:09:27. > :09:32.Constitutional reform, it was a real bunch of has-been, former Prime

:09:33. > :09:35.Minister, a good part of the establishment which struck an

:09:36. > :09:41.alliance between the neofascists of the extreme right and the populist

:09:42. > :09:45.Five Star Movement. And this probably is the most, the biggest

:09:46. > :09:55.paradox of this situation, it was a no without any reality.

:09:56. > :09:58.For those who beat Matteo Renzi the referendum was a cause for

:09:59. > :10:03.celebration. It may prove to have been just the appetiser for an

:10:04. > :10:08.enormous change in politics here. One in which the main course in an

:10:09. > :10:10.election expected this spring will be whether Italy should stay in the

:10:11. > :10:21.euro. Well if you add in Brexit, Italy,

:10:22. > :10:22.far right parties, does it add up to a crisis?

:10:23. > :10:24.Laszlo Andor is the former European Commissioner for Employment,

:10:25. > :10:35.Do you think the top brass in the EU recognise this is a manifest crisis

:10:36. > :10:40.for the EU at the moment or are they hoping it will just go away? I think

:10:41. > :10:45.there is enough understanding and has been for some time that the

:10:46. > :10:53.monetary union in its current form is not entirely sustainable and they

:10:54. > :10:56.will have to be reforms. This has been very slow, decision-making

:10:57. > :11:00.making obviously should be faster. It does not mean however that people

:11:01. > :11:08.do not realise that these reforms are needed. I think everyone thinks

:11:09. > :11:10.it is an economic challenge. What about the political side, that

:11:11. > :11:15.voters everywhere you give them the chance seem to be saying, whoever it

:11:16. > :11:21.is up there, we do not really like you. It does not necessarily look as

:11:22. > :11:28.though the top guard of the EU really get that. A lot of

:11:29. > :11:32.frustration came up in the Italian referendum but it was not a

:11:33. > :11:36.referendum about the EU or membership of the EU, any

:11:37. > :11:42.interpretation would be a distortion in that fashion. This was a domestic

:11:43. > :11:46.or constitutional question which was raised and there were many

:11:47. > :11:50.pro-Europeans on both sides of the yes and the no camp yesterday. I

:11:51. > :11:57.wonder whether that is a little complacent because you can disregard

:11:58. > :12:03.one vote or another but everywhere, whether Austria, the UK or Italy or

:12:04. > :12:10.indeed Greece, everywhere you go voters given the chance of voting

:12:11. > :12:15.for change and when they see the EU it is an institution that moves that

:12:16. > :12:18.one speed, very slowly. And just cannot change and absorb the

:12:19. > :12:24.capacity for change that the public currently have? If you really watch

:12:25. > :12:30.this, the voters voted against change, Matteo Renzi both dashed he

:12:31. > :12:32.wanted change and the voters voted against that, this was quite a

:12:33. > :12:37.different thing from what you describe. I think you're not getting

:12:38. > :12:40.the kind of changed the voters are voting for, they're not writing

:12:41. > :12:44.about constitutional change, they are voting for changing the guard,

:12:45. > :12:53.changing the top brass. Do you think for example that Juncker is the

:12:54. > :12:58.right man to lead the EU through this restaurant is a huge economic

:12:59. > :13:02.crisis and paralysis in Italy, do you think with this happening on his

:13:03. > :13:06.watch, he should just stay there and carry on as though nothing is

:13:07. > :13:10.happening all would be better if he got out of the way and say, the

:13:11. > :13:17.voters do not like the establishment and we new blood. You are connecting

:13:18. > :13:22.entirely distinct issues. The leadership of the EU institutions is

:13:23. > :13:28.organised in a way which is legitimate and based on the treaties

:13:29. > :13:34.approved by all the member states including Italy, the UK and other

:13:35. > :13:38.countries. This referendum in Italy was about how to reform the Italian

:13:39. > :13:47.constitution especially the Senate, how to make decision-making faster,

:13:48. > :13:55.how to make the political class more cost efficient inside Italy. People

:13:56. > :14:00.were not asked about Juncker or the European leadership on this issue.

:14:01. > :14:04.If you want to press this it is just very artificial and misleading I am

:14:05. > :14:11.afraid. It is interesting that you say that because I'm not sure to the

:14:12. > :14:15.average British person that it feels that remote, all over Europe people

:14:16. > :14:19.seem to feel there is a disconnect between their lives and those of the

:14:20. > :14:22.people governing them. A lot of that is coming out in frustration with

:14:23. > :14:27.the EU and people watching this would say you're just a part of the

:14:28. > :14:31.problem. In failing to recognise what is a huge and important

:14:32. > :14:38.interaction with the voters and trying to dismiss that as a

:14:39. > :14:40.technical vote on a constitution or a little internal affair. Do not

:14:41. > :14:52.feel it is bigger than that? There has been a shift in

:14:53. > :14:58.pro-European opinion because people realise that before the UK

:14:59. > :15:02.referendum, a lot of politicians, especially in the Leave campaign

:15:03. > :15:08.were telling lies about the European Union. Now there is a period of

:15:09. > :15:13.reckoning, a period of understanding of what it means to destabilise the

:15:14. > :15:19.European Union, what it means and what it costs to leave the European

:15:20. > :15:26.Union. Of course, a period when people look into these details a lot

:15:27. > :15:29.more than before and that makes people more pro-European, which we

:15:30. > :15:35.have seen in the Austrian presidential election, where the

:15:36. > :15:37.Green candidate winning with a greater margin than he did in the

:15:38. > :15:40.spring. Thanks. The second, final and decisive

:15:41. > :15:42.round of the contest between the government

:15:43. > :15:45.and the judiciary kicked off today with arguments put

:15:46. > :15:49.in the Supreme Court over whether Parliament has a right to

:15:50. > :15:52.a say on the invoking of Article 50. We won't get a result for a while,

:15:53. > :15:55.but TV viewers could watch It was quite heavy going,

:15:56. > :15:59.and won't I suspect, Our political editor

:16:00. > :16:14.Nick Watt was watching. Our starter for ten after a day at

:16:15. > :16:22.the Supreme Court is, what links Freddie Laker, Greenland, the

:16:23. > :16:30.Bahamas, and a grand hotel now demolished? Yes, these were legal

:16:31. > :16:35.cases cited as the government sought to overturn a ruling by the High

:16:36. > :16:39.Court that Brexit negotiations must be triggered by Parliament and not

:16:40. > :16:45.ministers using ancient royal powers. The government's main QC,

:16:46. > :16:51.James Eadie, argued ministers need not hold a parliamentary vote. He

:16:52. > :16:54.said since the inception of Article 50 in the Lisbon Treaty, MPs have

:16:55. > :17:01.not argued it is up to them to trigger the process. James Eadie was

:17:02. > :17:06.saying where Parliament has not said, I am taking this power away,

:17:07. > :17:11.it still rests with the prerogative. He was saying the Royal Prerogative

:17:12. > :17:17.exists on a separate plane over and above the domestic sphere and unless

:17:18. > :17:22.Parliament is saying it is taking it away. James Eadie was saying the

:17:23. > :17:29.European Communities Act, which is at the heart of this case, is merely

:17:30. > :17:34.a conduit for transposing those international law rights into

:17:35. > :17:39.domestic law. James Eadie cited the case of a Tameside hotel from the

:17:40. > :17:44.20s to underline his point. This was an elegant grand hotel on the

:17:45. > :17:49.Victoria embankment that suddenly got requisitioned by the government

:17:50. > :17:53.in World War I and there was a statute that said they had to pay a

:17:54. > :17:59.certain amount of compensation. They said no, we used the Royal

:18:00. > :18:03.Prerogative to requisition it, we do not have to pay. The Court of Appeal

:18:04. > :18:09.and House of Lords found they did, because a statute restrained the

:18:10. > :18:14.prerogative. Whatever the 11 justices decided, this is likely to

:18:15. > :18:19.be a landmark case. It will not prevent the triggering of Article 50

:18:20. > :18:23.but it could lead to major alterations in Britain's

:18:24. > :18:27.constitutional settlement encompassing Royal Prerogative

:18:28. > :18:30.powers and the role of devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales

:18:31. > :18:36.and Northern Ireland in UK by decision-making will stop this is a

:18:37. > :18:42.hugely important constitutional case that goes beyond the issues arising

:18:43. > :18:49.out of Brexit, because it concerns a part of our Constitution, the Royal

:18:50. > :18:53.Prerogative, and touches on devolved power to Scotland, Wales and

:18:54. > :18:59.Northern Ireland. And we have a Supreme Court that... We do not have

:19:00. > :19:02.a written constitution, but they have an important role in

:19:03. > :19:09.interpreting the unwritten constitution. I come from... To this

:19:10. > :19:13.as a traditional conservative. Historically I have always believed

:19:14. > :19:16.this country manage well with an unwritten constitution. In recent

:19:17. > :19:23.years I have begun to have doubts and those doubts do not centre on EU

:19:24. > :19:28.membership, they centre on devolution and managing a system of

:19:29. > :19:32.devolved power to different parts of the UK and maintaining an overall

:19:33. > :19:36.framework. I am on record saying I think we need to give careful

:19:37. > :19:41.thought to whether we shouldn't have some kind of written constitution.

:19:42. > :19:47.It needn't be a detailed document, but one that sets out a framework

:19:48. > :19:51.for those relationships. Emotions are running high as the Supreme

:19:52. > :19:56.Court is asked to rule on how the Brexit negotiations should be

:19:57. > :20:06.triggered. One You support is relax. The triggering of Article 50 is in

:20:07. > :20:09.line to start next year and whether the Supreme Court disagrees with the

:20:10. > :20:13.High Court and says you can crack on, or whether we have to bring a

:20:14. > :20:17.short bill to the house, Parliament will not frustrate that. They are

:20:18. > :20:23.acceptable solutions to get on with doing what is a major change to our

:20:24. > :20:28.constitutional position. Just a stone's throw from Parliament there

:20:29. > :20:33.is a new kid on the block. The Supreme Court has only sat the seven

:20:34. > :20:35.years but it is now cementing its position in Britain's ever evolving

:20:36. > :20:38.constitutional settlement. Rather than argue about how

:20:39. > :20:43.our constitution works in the supreme court,

:20:44. > :20:45.could we perhaps codify the rules, so that we know in advance

:20:46. > :20:48.what the rules are and have Or do we prefer our slightly messy

:20:49. > :20:52.unwritten rules that perhaps have the capacity to flex

:20:53. > :20:54.when you need them? Dr Catherine Haddon is from

:20:55. > :21:02.The Institute for Government. Thanks for coming in. The Dominic

:21:03. > :21:08.Grieve point, he is coming around to the idea, he might need to codify

:21:09. > :21:14.things around the Royal Prerogative, particularly devolution. Is that a

:21:15. > :21:18.good idea? It is difficult to say in circumstances where we have things

:21:19. > :21:23.in flux. It is almost as if you wanted to do it in advance. There is

:21:24. > :21:27.so much going on where the constitution is in flux. We are

:21:28. > :21:34.repatriating powers in the process of leaving the EU. There is a lot we

:21:35. > :21:39.need to think about in terms of the Constitution, bringing in other

:21:40. > :21:43.issues in terms of codify in, consolidating our Constitution might

:21:44. > :21:48.be a step too far at the moment. A lot of people are deeply attracted

:21:49. > :21:52.to the idea of having a proper written constitution so you know

:21:53. > :21:58.what the rules are. Does that lead to more dispute because in the US

:21:59. > :22:02.they seem to argue about nothing but constitutional rights, or does it

:22:03. > :22:08.resolve disputes to write it down? It is difficult to know. What we are

:22:09. > :22:13.seeing at the moment, the Supreme Court deciding on this issue, is in

:22:14. > :22:18.effect what we could see more of. You have different issues. The

:22:19. > :22:22.question about transparency, do we understand the constitution, should

:22:23. > :22:27.it be consolidated? The issue of whose authority decides the

:22:28. > :22:30.constitution? The Supreme Court Parliament, the government? And

:22:31. > :22:37.prerogative powers, but they are Tom when they should adapt. The

:22:38. > :22:41.complicated thing about the UK, Parliament is sovereign and reign

:22:42. > :22:46.supreme so the parliament if it wants to can abolish the Supreme

:22:47. > :22:51.Court, Kartik? Or you have a written constitution voted in by Parliament

:22:52. > :22:53.and pine and can abolish the ring constitution. Parliament, isn't that

:22:54. > :22:58.the principle that governs everything? It is, the

:22:59. > :23:02.democratically elected... Dictatorship! Part of our government

:23:03. > :23:07.so it can legislate for these things. There are checks and

:23:08. > :23:15.balances in the system, similar to the US. The rule of law is obviously

:23:16. > :23:21.one of those and we have seen judicial reviews since the 70s form

:23:22. > :23:26.part of that. This is dramatic and more important but in a sense it is

:23:27. > :23:30.a continuation of the travel we have seen. Parliament can legislate and

:23:31. > :23:35.create a Bill of Rights which it has talked about many times. It could

:23:36. > :23:40.legislate to change Royal prerogatives, put it on the statue

:23:41. > :23:43.books. It did it with a fixed term parliaments acts that changed Royal

:23:44. > :23:49.Prerogative into an act of Parliament. The ability to call an

:23:50. > :23:54.election. The monarch's right to dissolve parliament. It caused

:23:55. > :23:58.confusion in OK you might want to amend it further you cannot turn it

:23:59. > :24:06.back into a Royal Prerogative. You could repeal the act. And give the

:24:07. > :24:10.Prime Minister the power to call the election. Constitutional authorities

:24:11. > :24:15.are divided on what you would do in replacing a Royal Prerogative. In

:24:16. > :24:20.the long-term, would we be better off trying to write it down? I think

:24:21. > :24:25.it is written and codified in a lot of places. There is value in

:24:26. > :24:30.consolidating it, even in a guidance document, which we saw with the

:24:31. > :24:37.Cabinet manual. Before the election, when we expected a hung parliament?

:24:38. > :24:41.Exactly and the purpose was to make sure constitutional decisions would

:24:42. > :24:45.not decided by people on Newsnight in the middle of the night to make

:24:46. > :24:51.sure we have some sort of authority that could speak to it. I think you

:24:52. > :24:54.are seeing awareness of constitutional issues and a desire

:24:55. > :24:59.for more clarity, but you wouldn't have the debates we are having about

:25:00. > :25:04.who is the authority and what is the process by which we challenge it.

:25:05. > :25:08.Constitutions are not fixed, they have to change all the time. We

:25:09. > :25:11.would still face those same issues. Thanks.

:25:12. > :25:13.There's been more bloodshed in Aleppo today with the Syrian

:25:14. > :25:16.regime barrel bombing a district in the east of the city -

:25:17. > :25:18.and its forces advancing further into rebel territory.

:25:19. > :25:21.Now if you've been watching us regularly, you'll know we've been

:25:22. > :25:23.trying to keep in touch with citizens in Aleppo,

:25:24. > :25:27.as the siege there enters its most intense and brutal phase.

:25:28. > :25:30.That is not always easy, but today, we can show you what life

:25:31. > :25:32.is like for some of the local journalists and cameramen

:25:33. > :25:35.who are filming the destruction of their own home town.

:25:36. > :25:40.The images can often be difficult to watch, let alone gather.

:25:41. > :25:44.And news networks don't even broadcast the worst of it.

:25:45. > :25:46.In this report, we've been speaking to two of the citizen-journalists

:25:47. > :25:50.It was filmed by Milad Al Shehabi in eastern Aleppo and edited

:25:51. > :26:18.this film has some disturbing images.

:26:19. > :26:22.Filmed in high-definition, the tragedy in Aleppo

:26:23. > :26:30.With the besieged rebel-controlled part of the city considered too

:26:31. > :26:33.dangerous for Westerners, it's a network of local activists

:26:34. > :26:39.and citizen journalists, called the Aleppo Media Centre,

:26:40. > :26:42.who risk their lives to film these scenes that have been

:26:43. > :27:05.The images of Aleppo by drones showing the miles and miles

:27:06. > :27:09.of devastation are both breathtaking and heartbreaking.

:27:10. > :27:12.Most of them are filmed by this man, Hasan Katan.

:27:13. > :27:16.A law student when the conflict erupted, he's now a film-maker

:27:17. > :27:53.Every shot he takes brings him a mix of emotions.

:27:54. > :27:57.Mustafa al-Sarout used to be a tailor before the revolution.

:27:58. > :28:03.He now also works as a cameraman for the Aleppo Media Centre.

:28:04. > :28:04.His footage of five-year-old Omran Daqneesh sitting

:28:05. > :28:31.dazed in the back of an ambulance went worldwide.

:28:32. > :28:35.But there are many Omrans in Aleppo and each time there's an attack,

:28:36. > :29:15.the journalists are torn about how to behave.

:29:16. > :29:18.The group upload and share the videos they film.

:29:19. > :29:21.Despite the lack of action by the international community

:29:22. > :29:52.so far, they still hope their images can and will make a difference.

:29:53. > :29:59.That's the question at the heart of the latest government inspired

:30:00. > :30:01.report into integration - ethnic, religious and social.

:30:02. > :30:02.It was produced by Dame Louise Casey.

:30:03. > :30:07.She said she expected to find discrimination and disadvantage

:30:08. > :30:09.feeding a sense of grievance and unfairness, and isolating

:30:10. > :30:14.certain communities from the best opportunities.

:30:15. > :30:17.But while she did find that, she was also aware of cultural

:30:18. > :30:20.and religious practices that are holding back some citizens

:30:21. > :30:23.in certain communities, particularly the Muslim ones.

:30:24. > :30:29.Women and children are sometimes victims of regressive

:30:30. > :30:33.Now this is not the first report into this issue -

:30:34. > :30:36.but it is interesting to see how they've evolved.

:30:37. > :30:38.Back in 1981 there were riots in Brixton.

:30:39. > :30:41.Race was an issue and out of the wreckage came

:30:42. > :30:48.At that stage, the concern was what British society was doing wrong.

:30:49. > :30:53.Lord Scarman talked of inner-city decline, his most memorable finding

:30:54. > :30:56.was to fault the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of police

:30:57. > :31:00.And, he said, positive discrimination to tackle

:31:01. > :31:04.racial disadvantage was a price worth paying.

:31:05. > :31:07.Scroll forward to the year 2001, and there were riots

:31:08. > :31:11.in Oldham and Burnley, prompting more than one report.

:31:12. > :31:17.The Cantle report came out in 2006, now putting weight

:31:18. > :31:19.on what the minority communities might do.

:31:20. > :31:23.It said different communities lived parallel lives.

:31:24. > :31:26.It warned that single faith schools might raise deeper divisions.

:31:27. > :31:28.And it even suggested that immigrants could take an oath

:31:29. > :31:38.Well, a decade of immigration on, with huge numbers of Poles coming

:31:39. > :31:41.in and growth of over a million in the Muslim population too,

:31:42. > :31:44.concerns over parallel lives have increased.

:31:45. > :31:48.Today's report has tougher language on how minorities must fit in.

:31:49. > :31:51.There's an emphasis on English language classes

:31:52. > :31:57.And women's emancipation from "regressive cultural practices".

:31:58. > :32:01.And the Casey report says schools should promote British

:32:02. > :32:05.values to help build integration and tolerance.

:32:06. > :32:08.Well, to some extent you might caricature the way the debate has

:32:09. > :32:11.evolved over the years, as progression from a worry

:32:12. > :32:14.about "No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish" to certain

:32:15. > :32:20.groups saying "we don't want to go to your pub anyway".

:32:21. > :32:21.I'm joined now by Sarah Hewitt, Headteacher at

:32:22. > :32:24.Anderton Park Primary in Birmingham - she received death threats

:32:25. > :32:33.after her school was inspected as part of the Trojan Horse scandal,

:32:34. > :32:36.from Manchester Amina Lone, Co-director of the social

:32:37. > :32:39.foundation which is an anti poverty think tank.

:32:40. > :32:41.And Tadeusz Stenzel Chair of Trustees, Federation

:32:42. > :32:55.First how do you respond to the idea that we seem to be asking migrants

:32:56. > :33:00.to fit in more rather than working out what we do to help them. Perhaps

:33:01. > :33:06.not as binary as I have suggested. How do you respond to that, is that

:33:07. > :33:10.a fair thing for a society to start doing? I welcome the report and

:33:11. > :33:14.think it has some interesting findings, not least saying we want

:33:15. > :33:20.to have a new community investment programme and more English classes.

:33:21. > :33:24.All a good thing. But you cannot say that without resources to back it,

:33:25. > :33:27.and the last government significantly cut adult education

:33:28. > :33:33.investment. I think the responsibility is on society and

:33:34. > :33:41.individuals as we are all part of the same thing. We've got to work

:33:42. > :33:48.together and live together, it is not about other people, Muslims or

:33:49. > :33:54.immigrants or minority communities actually having to just change but

:33:55. > :33:57.also about society saying what are British values, what do they mean

:33:58. > :34:03.and how did they shape our future as a country. Some of this is addressed

:34:04. > :34:09.at the Polish community as well, and that has been a conspicuous

:34:10. > :34:16.immigration of the last decade. There have been problems obviously

:34:17. > :34:20.but I agree it is a lack of education causing a lot of the

:34:21. > :34:27.problems. I think we have reduced the amount of training for

:34:28. > :34:34.immigrants and their living in a separate world which even in the

:34:35. > :34:37.Polish community, which is widely distributed, and not so concentrated

:34:38. > :34:44.on some of the others throughout the UK. The people live here, they eat

:34:45. > :34:51.here but they live a life through the media, through Poland. They

:34:52. > :34:56.watch Polish TV and Polish football games. But if the British Government

:34:57. > :35:06.paid for English second language courses, do you think demand would

:35:07. > :35:11.be there? It is always a problem, you can take the voice to the water

:35:12. > :35:16.but cannot make it drink. It is a problem that I have come across.

:35:17. > :35:22.This seems to be a reluctance to learn more than is absolutely

:35:23. > :35:26.necessary to get by work. But there is an impending problem whether

:35:27. > :35:29.children are now being educated in English schools and in the near

:35:30. > :35:35.future the parents and children will not be able to communicate with

:35:36. > :35:43.another. One was no English and the other was no Polish! I will ask you

:35:44. > :35:49.all to give us three practical steps in a moment. Pressed to think that

:35:50. > :35:56.it is OK to say we need you to try a bit harder in your communities, you

:35:57. > :36:01.have to oppose regressive policies with women stuck at home. I think

:36:02. > :36:12.that is fair to say, one of the things that we should be proud of in

:36:13. > :36:22.the UK, sometimes I feel that we tell parents, we interviewed new

:36:23. > :36:28.parents and we say this is a British school and we follow British law, we

:36:29. > :36:37.have the equality act and we tell him -- tell them what that means.

:36:38. > :36:44.And you get lower back from that? Sometimes. People sometimes say that

:36:45. > :36:49.is your opinion and I say yes but that is the law as well, gay people

:36:50. > :36:54.are also equal, disabled, able-bodied, the whole thing. You

:36:55. > :36:58.cannot bit -- you cannot pick the bits of the equality act that you

:36:59. > :37:03.like and leave the rest. I'm happy to say that, but I just wonder who

:37:04. > :37:08.else should be saying that to families. Because this should be an

:37:09. > :37:11.expectation for all British citizens and visitors to Britain that this is

:37:12. > :37:17.what we expect and how we expect them to behave. And that gets you to

:37:18. > :37:25.the idea of an oath, I do not know if you are in favour. I'm not a

:37:26. > :37:29.great fan of that because I think any kind of declaration is only

:37:30. > :37:35.effective if there is a sanction if you fall foul of it. You have not

:37:36. > :37:41.respected British values, you get a ?50 ticket? And also a lot of the

:37:42. > :37:45.British population is homophobic or misogynistic, so it should be an

:37:46. > :37:48.oath for everyone. I would like a practical suggestion from each of

:37:49. > :37:53.you, what would be the most important thing to do? We need to

:37:54. > :37:57.reconstruct British values so they are reflective of the country as it

:37:58. > :38:02.is changing and also provide support. That point about people in

:38:03. > :38:07.schools or other institutions having British values and not

:38:08. > :38:10.discriminating is right. But I know people who have been working in

:38:11. > :38:13.schools when families have taken girls are the sports classes and the

:38:14. > :38:21.school has allowed it. So we have got to be consistent. Support for

:38:22. > :38:26.staff in public sector errors. Maybe we should just cut off Polish

:38:27. > :38:30.television stations so they have to watch the BBC! We tried to influence

:38:31. > :38:38.the Polish government to produce programmes aimed at the Polish

:38:39. > :38:42.people living here in the UK. That they get politics from Poland but we

:38:43. > :38:45.want to represent what is happening here. My suggestion is that we need

:38:46. > :38:50.to teach people their responsibilities. They all know

:38:51. > :38:53.their rights but very few, there's little emphasis put

:38:54. > :38:57.responsibilities. That would be important to do that. We're going

:38:58. > :39:05.right back to the thrust of the KC approach. Absolutely. Give me one

:39:06. > :39:09.practical idea. I think it needs to come from the government, we need to

:39:10. > :39:15.stop the fragmentation of schools. In what way? We are in an unusual

:39:16. > :39:18.situation where we have all kinds of schools and this is a bit

:39:19. > :39:24.fragmented. The government have lifted a cap on faith schools. This

:39:25. > :39:27.report is about integration and the opposite to that is segregation and

:39:28. > :39:32.you could argue that faith schools segregate. Anything that is about

:39:33. > :39:39.segregation we need to rethink. We need to stop people being creamed

:39:40. > :39:47.off to go to grammar schools, that is the opposite of integration. And

:39:48. > :39:53.practical homes, be passionate about equality in the homes, speak about

:39:54. > :39:57.that and be passionate about that. Children are brilliant at this and

:39:58. > :40:01.in my school children are passionate about the quality. And the parents

:40:02. > :40:05.tell me that their daughters have given them a hard time because for

:40:06. > :40:08.example they said that their son should have the biggest bedroom and

:40:09. > :40:14.the girls give them what for about that. So children are an amazing

:40:15. > :40:21.tool for changing the mindset of parents. And that is huge, mindsets

:40:22. > :40:26.change and behaviours, they change the world. Parallel lines is the

:40:27. > :40:37.phrase people have been using, what is it that makes people want to sort

:40:38. > :40:41.themselves into ethnic areas? I think people feel comfortable with

:40:42. > :40:45.someone they identify with, whether culturally, with clothing or

:40:46. > :40:53.language. When I go to my parents home in Birmingham, the local

:40:54. > :40:58.supermarket is full of Muslims on Christmas Eve buying up all the

:40:59. > :41:04.Christmas stock. So it is more complex. I am a Muslim woman, I have

:41:05. > :41:08.children, I do not identify as needing to be emancipated, it is a

:41:09. > :41:13.diverse community so we need to be cautious about labelling the whole

:41:14. > :41:15.community. Thank you very much. That is all but we have time for this

:41:16. > :41:16.evening. But before we go, Sotheby's

:41:17. > :41:19.announced today that it was creating a brand new art forensics unit

:41:20. > :41:21.to detect fakes, following its failure to spot

:41:22. > :41:23.an ?8.4m forged painting. We thought we'd give it -

:41:24. > :41:26.and you - its first big test. What follows is a series of 19th

:41:27. > :41:29.century masterpieces - but mixed amongst them are a couple

:41:30. > :41:31.of numbers our producers See if you can spot the fakes -

:41:32. > :41:37.and then check the @BBCNewsnight twitter feed to find out

:41:38. > :41:40.if you were right.