:00:21. > :00:28.A ceasefire and evacuation may now be back on,
:00:29. > :00:36.but in Aleppo, even defeat is not straightforward.
:00:37. > :00:39.We'll ask how you bring a multiparty war like this to an end.
:00:40. > :00:55.THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD TARGET A PLAYGROUND? AND BOMB KIDS? Hoping
:00:56. > :01:00.that he would then convince people to give up because you had killed
:01:01. > :01:01.their kids? What kind of a second mind comes up with a strategy like
:01:02. > :01:03.that? if there is any meaningful action
:01:04. > :01:08.to add to the strong words. Also tonight, does Labour
:01:09. > :01:10.have a problem in the North? We return to the
:01:11. > :01:16.Brexit-voting town of Burnley. When we got the Gordon Brown...
:01:17. > :01:19.man come and... The things he did on the TV
:01:20. > :01:21.really put me off Labour, and I thought, "Hmm,
:01:22. > :01:23.they're not actually ordinary that Labour has to learn
:01:24. > :01:38.to be less metropolitan. Battles are meant to end
:01:39. > :01:42.when one side wins them, and Bashar al-Assad's forces
:01:43. > :01:44.have won eastern Aleppo. But the end of the suffering
:01:45. > :01:47.there has been delayed. Yesterday, the hope was that
:01:48. > :01:50.the rebels and trapped civilians would be able to retreat
:01:51. > :01:53.from their enclave in eastern Aleppo and the evacuation buses
:01:54. > :01:59.sent back to the depot. There are suggestions tonight
:02:00. > :02:03.that it is in prospect again. In a conflict so brutal and bitter,
:02:04. > :02:06.even when there is a deal to be struck to the mutual
:02:07. > :02:09.benefit of the combatants, it is formidably difficult
:02:10. > :02:11.to settle it. The UN human-rights chief
:02:12. > :02:14.suggested it may be a war crime for killing to continue
:02:15. > :02:23.at this point in the battle. David Grossman has been
:02:24. > :02:42.following events for us today. Reporting from the rubble of Aleppo,
:02:43. > :02:44.this film-maker has gathered material from Syria for Newsnight
:02:45. > :02:55.during this conflict. Today you can hear in the
:02:56. > :03:15.background, and in his voice, the ceasefire has failed.
:03:16. > :04:39.Earlier in the day, we had the perfect metaphor for that dashed
:04:40. > :04:44.hope. The row of buses lined up to ferry civilians to safety closed
:04:45. > :04:49.their doors and believe empty. Every time a ceasefire has been
:04:50. > :04:52.negotiated, in the last months, they have collapsed, and they have not
:04:53. > :04:56.succeeded. This time there are reports that the Iranian militia has
:04:57. > :05:01.started fighting again. There are now reports of the Syrian army
:05:02. > :05:09.saying there were more rebels there than they thought initially, so it
:05:10. > :05:12.was a kind of logistical thing. The Syrian leader, Bashar al-Assad,
:05:13. > :05:17.appeared on Russian state television today to criticise the West for, he
:05:18. > :05:25.said, caring only about the casualties from one side in this
:05:26. > :05:27.desperate conflict. Western officials and the mainstream media,
:05:28. > :05:31.they are worried about the civilians. They are not worried when
:05:32. > :05:35.the opposite happens, when the terrorists are killing those
:05:36. > :05:43.civilians or attacking Palmyra and destroying the human heritage, not
:05:44. > :05:46.only Syrian heritage. If he thought this would check US criticism of his
:05:47. > :05:50.actions and those of his Russian allies, this afternoon's strong
:05:51. > :05:55.comments Robbie White as we'll have corrected this mass apprehension. --
:05:56. > :05:59.from the White House. These tactics are depraved, they cross every line
:06:00. > :06:03.that I can think of. And frankly they cross lines I hadn't previously
:06:04. > :06:09.thought. The idea that you would target a playground? And bomb kids?
:06:10. > :06:15.Hoping that you would then convince people to give up because you had
:06:16. > :06:20.killed their kids? What kind of a sick mind comes up with a strategy
:06:21. > :06:24.like that? And what kind of civilised country is going to
:06:25. > :06:29.support those tactics? But that is what Russia has done.
:06:30. > :06:33.But the impotence of Western powers in this conflict is obvious. The UK
:06:34. > :06:36.Government sources have told the BBC that it will use drones and
:06:37. > :06:42.satellite imagery to gather evidence of possible war crimes in Aleppo - a
:06:43. > :06:48.thread perhaps, but what we cannot do, it seems, is stop the atrocities
:06:49. > :06:53.from happening. David Grossman there. If you want to see more from
:06:54. > :06:57.that extraordinary piece of film at the beginning of the piece, the
:06:58. > :07:01.cameraman in Aleppo, we will be putting that up on the Newsnight
:07:02. > :07:02.YouTube channel. It will be there a little later.
:07:03. > :07:05.I am joined now by the author and journalist Patrick Cockburn
:07:06. > :07:08.and Lina Khatib, who is the head of the Middle East and North Africa
:07:09. > :07:20.Patrick, the level of brutality, is this unique for this war? No,
:07:21. > :07:24.unfortunately. It has been brutal from the beginning, extraordinarily
:07:25. > :07:30.brutal. So it is really almost typical of what we have seen before.
:07:31. > :07:34.So we are obviously seeing perhaps more of it than we have in the past,
:07:35. > :07:39.and certainly the Americans have upped the ante in terms of the
:07:40. > :07:44.language they are using to describe it. Yes, it is more visible, it is a
:07:45. > :07:52.bigger place, East Aleppo, the district in Damascus, I have been
:07:53. > :07:57.around them, the level of destruction there is equal. But it
:07:58. > :08:02.has been an extraordinarily violent war already since it started in
:08:03. > :08:07.2011. And do you agree? This is the way this war is being conducted, and
:08:08. > :08:11.this is not perhaps as exceptional as we are saying? We have to
:08:12. > :08:18.remember it is not just Aleppo that is being bombarded right now. Other
:08:19. > :08:22.areas in Syria, occupied by rebels, according to the regime, are being
:08:23. > :08:27.bombed with the same intensity. It live is one such area. Are the
:08:28. > :08:33.rebels doing the same? Obviously they cannot bomb, but are they as
:08:34. > :08:37.violent as the regime? Of course the rebels are fighting, so they are
:08:38. > :08:43.engaged in attacks on regime held areas, but they do not have an air
:08:44. > :08:49.force, and therefore no matter, you know they could not be as brutal
:08:50. > :08:52.even if they wanted to. Can we talk about the evacuation? A lot of the
:08:53. > :08:56.assessment of this rest on whether the folks stuck out in eastern
:08:57. > :09:00.Aleppo can get out if they want to do so safely, and they clearly seem
:09:01. > :09:04.to think that they are not safe if they leave. Patrick, we have other
:09:05. > :09:08.experience in Syria? What does that tell us about what the Syrian
:09:09. > :09:13.government does to people when they surrender? Well, they have this
:09:14. > :09:18.programme of ceasefires that are, as you say, in practice surrenders.
:09:19. > :09:22.Some people stay in that area or go over to the government side, but a
:09:23. > :09:31.lot of the fighters and their families, other sympathisers, are
:09:32. > :09:35.generally bussed to Idlib province, under rebel control. That is one of
:09:36. > :09:38.the optimistic things that is happening, supposing the government
:09:39. > :09:43.kills a lot of these people, who it says they are going to evacuate,
:09:44. > :09:46.then every other besieged rebel stronghold is going to fight to the
:09:47. > :09:51.end, because there will be no reason for them to surrender. So it is in
:09:52. > :09:55.the interest of the government to treat them reasonably well? Very
:09:56. > :10:06.much so, because they have regained... We talk about Aleppo,
:10:07. > :10:10.but if we can control the the large part of Damascus, it is not in their
:10:11. > :10:15.interest that it should stop. We hear that people are being offered
:10:16. > :10:20.passage to Idlib, but that is a place that is obviously the last
:10:21. > :10:23.rebel holdout, and a lot of rebels have been sent there. One wonders
:10:24. > :10:29.what the Syrian government is planning for Idlib. Yeah, exactly, I
:10:30. > :10:34.think what is happening is an attempt to squeeze the rebels in
:10:35. > :10:39.this area of Idlib, and we are talking about a very big area. And
:10:40. > :10:45.afterwards, I expect that the regime and Russia and their allies will not
:10:46. > :10:49.stop and just let them, you know, kind of exist in Idlib. Already the
:10:50. > :10:54.bombing is ongoing, and I expect after the Battle of Aleppo, we will
:10:55. > :10:58.see a follow-up, which is possibly a siege in Idlib, but followed by
:10:59. > :11:03.intent of the gate of air strikes. There is one thing I want to
:11:04. > :11:11.mention, the Damascus government and the Iranians, there are two Shia
:11:12. > :11:14.towns west of Aleppo that have been besieged, and I think they are
:11:15. > :11:19.genuinely worried about what happened to them, and I want to get
:11:20. > :11:24.their people out of there. It is not purely about Aleppo. We do not
:11:25. > :11:28.really here about these towns of the media, here, but it is something
:11:29. > :11:32.that weighs very strongly not just with the Syrian government but with
:11:33. > :11:36.the whole Shia community. Do you think the media coverage is
:11:37. > :11:42.imbalanced in any way, Patrick? Well, compared to Mosul, it turns
:11:43. > :11:46.out that it is mostly or entirely the fault of Daesh, Isis there, and
:11:47. > :11:52.they are holding civilians as human shields. While over in Aleppo, it is
:11:53. > :11:55.entirely the fault of the government, but actually there are
:11:56. > :12:01.many similarities between the two, that you have jihadis basically
:12:02. > :12:06.controlling a place, they are under attack from governments, shell fire,
:12:07. > :12:10.bombs being dropped, lots of civilians get killed. So there are
:12:11. > :12:14.strong parallels between the two, they are not exactly the same, but
:12:15. > :12:17.there are parallels. But the danger in this is that some people might
:12:18. > :12:23.think that East Aleppo is being controlled by Daesh, when it is not,
:12:24. > :12:29.or that the majority of rebels in eased Aleppo are jihadists and are
:12:30. > :12:33.extremist jihadists at that. And the situation, as you know, is a lot
:12:34. > :12:37.more complex than that. It is complex, but you have Al-Nusra,
:12:38. > :12:42.which I know it says has separated from Al-Qaeda, but the links are
:12:43. > :12:51.still the plans. But the other is not designated as a terrorist
:12:52. > :12:56.organisation. In terms of the international community's role, was
:12:57. > :13:01.this inevitable, but it was so brutal? The George Osborne line, it
:13:02. > :13:05.did not come out of a vacuum, it was created by a vacuum, a lack of
:13:06. > :13:09.leadership from the US. I think history has been rewritten, and
:13:10. > :13:14.things that governments could not have done, this was a genuine civil
:13:15. > :13:20.war, people deeply committed on both sides to fight. If Britain, America
:13:21. > :13:25.had come in 2013, and Assad had gone, would the war had ended? No,
:13:26. > :13:30.you would just have had a new type of war, maybe you would have at
:13:31. > :13:35.Daesh in Damascus instead. So I am sure he thinks that he is doing the
:13:36. > :13:42.right thing, but in fact it is really a very simple-minded account
:13:43. > :13:45.of what happened. How does it end? I mean, this is ridiculous as a last
:13:46. > :13:50.question, but what does the government do? Do the rebels get
:13:51. > :13:53.defeated, or do they become bandits in the hills who come down and
:13:54. > :13:59.create trouble for Assad if he manages to get control of the
:14:00. > :14:03.country? One of the things we have to remember is that the grievances
:14:04. > :14:07.which have led people to protest against Assad, plus the atrocities
:14:08. > :14:12.created by the regime, are not going away any time soon, meaning even if
:14:13. > :14:16.the rebels are defeated militarily, these grievances will remain, and
:14:17. > :14:19.unless they are addressed, we are going to sit long-term instability
:14:20. > :14:25.in Syria, regardless of the kind of political settlement that might
:14:26. > :14:29.happen at some point. And therefore I think that we shouldn't just focus
:14:30. > :14:36.on the battle of Aleppo and think, this is the beginning of the end. It
:14:37. > :14:41.is just another one. Absolutely, unless there is a political
:14:42. > :14:44.transition in Syria that changes the regime, replaces it with a
:14:45. > :14:47.transitional government that has wider representation from all sides.
:14:48. > :14:49.I am joined now by Ambassador James Jeffrey from Washington.
:14:50. > :14:53.He was US ambassador to Iraq and Turkey.
:14:54. > :15:04.Good evening to you. We have heard very strong words from the United
:15:05. > :15:11.States, is there anything they could do at this point to actually make a
:15:12. > :15:18.difference? You are wasting your screen time, letting your folks hear
:15:19. > :15:23.these words from the White House, because we hear them again and
:15:24. > :15:28.again. This White House will take no action to try and stop this carnage.
:15:29. > :15:33.It does not understand or want to understand what is at stake and it
:15:34. > :15:41.cannot act without using military force which it is refusing to do.
:15:42. > :15:48.That is a very strong statement. Are you saying the mistake was made back
:15:49. > :15:55.in 2013 and that a vacuum is left and Russia filled the vacuum? We
:15:56. > :16:00.have seen exactly that. The previous commentator has mentioned that this
:16:01. > :16:03.is a civil war and it certainly is. Like Sri Lanka, and Colombia, but
:16:04. > :16:09.you can't understand this without recognising it is part of a larger
:16:10. > :16:11.struggle. An effort from Iran enabled by Russia to spread the
:16:12. > :16:21.influence and power deep into the Arab world. Syria, rack, Lebanon,
:16:22. > :16:27.Yemen -- rack. That is what is going on. Normally as America we played a
:16:28. > :16:32.role with the rest of the West, in balancing these things, but we have
:16:33. > :16:38.played that role. What military action would you take at this point?
:16:39. > :16:46.I would declare where the rebels are, Idlib, a no-fly zone, which
:16:47. > :16:51.cannot be shut down by Russia and start dropping in supplies by
:16:52. > :16:55.American transport and say that if they are struck out, we will strike
:16:56. > :17:00.the bases from whence the attacks came, something like that is what is
:17:01. > :17:06.needed. If we can't do that and I don't think this Administration
:17:07. > :17:08.will, at least stop giving very effective anti-tank and
:17:09. > :17:19.anti-aircraft weapons to the rebels, to try to drag this thing and to get
:17:20. > :17:22.a political settlement. The Iranians and the Syrians and the Russians are
:17:23. > :17:26.going for a total victory by smashing the population. Today
:17:27. > :17:31.Aleppo and tomorrow the rest of Syria. The danger is you prolong the
:17:32. > :17:39.war and so it goes on endlessly. They can run for 15 years if there
:17:40. > :17:44.are outside parties financing it. That is the danger of the route you
:17:45. > :17:51.are suggesting. If you like what is going on now, is the alternative...
:17:52. > :17:59.There are people who say it would be better if President Assad won. Is
:18:00. > :18:04.that an argument? Again, if this was Sri Lanka or Colombia at where the
:18:05. > :18:08.government in the end wins, even though the other side might have its
:18:09. > :18:11.own grievances or legitimate complaints against the government,
:18:12. > :18:16.that is one thing, but this is no more an isolated Civil War than the
:18:17. > :18:26.Spanish Civil War, to use an ancient example. That was not an isolated
:18:27. > :18:29.Civil War in the 30s, this has a strategic impact on what is going on
:18:30. > :18:34.in Europe and North America and globally. You mentioned that the new
:18:35. > :18:41.regime which might take a different approach. What do you think Donald
:18:42. > :18:43.Trump will do? We assume he will be more favourable towards the Russian
:18:44. > :18:48.perspective in that part of the world and indeed in every part of
:18:49. > :18:54.the world. He views this as a binary conflict between Isis and everybody
:18:55. > :18:59.else. In some sense Donald Trump might take a view that is rather
:19:00. > :19:07.closer to the one I was just putting to you. It is possible, nobody
:19:08. > :19:13.knows. First of all he is very much opposed to Iran's activities. He has
:19:14. > :19:25.gone after the Iran nuclear agreement which is the one thing I
:19:26. > :19:32.like about the Obama's handling of Iran. The problem with Iran, though,
:19:33. > :19:35.depredations to the Middle East are not under control and that is what
:19:36. > :19:40.he will have to deal with and that is what he will hear from the
:19:41. > :19:44.region. That is potentially a contradiction in the clues we have
:19:45. > :19:47.about Donald Trump. He's more pro-Russia but he is more anti-Iran
:19:48. > :19:53.and at the moment they are the two allies fighting together in Syria.
:19:54. > :19:59.He is mainly pro-make America great again, he can't do that if he
:20:00. > :20:02.doesn't deal more effectively than a president Obama has with the
:20:03. > :20:06.depredations from Iran in the Middle East and the challenge to the entire
:20:07. > :20:10.global security system that Russia is making. There is no way to make
:20:11. > :20:14.America great and try to live with that. There are ways you can do this
:20:15. > :20:17.more diplomatically and more militarily but you have got to do
:20:18. > :20:23.something different. Ambassador, thanks for joining us.
:20:24. > :20:25.In recent months on Newsnight we've reported on some
:20:26. > :20:27.of the troubles experienced by the Independent Inquiry
:20:28. > :20:31.In the summer it lost its third chair and since then a number
:20:32. > :20:40.In October, we reported that the inquiry had dropped
:20:41. > :20:42.an investigation into its lead lawyer, despite being made aware
:20:43. > :20:44.of an allegation of sexual assault against him.
:20:45. > :20:46.Ben Emmerson has always strongly denied any wrongdoing.
:20:47. > :20:48.Today the legal chambers where he practices announced
:20:49. > :20:50.their own inquiry had concluded he had not committed
:20:51. > :20:59.Seven weeks ago Newsnight revealed the independent inquiry into child
:21:00. > :21:02.sexual abuse had been made aware of an allegation of sexual assault
:21:03. > :21:06.The inquiry had been told of a claim that Ben Emmerson,
:21:07. > :21:10.the most senior lawyer on the inquiry, had
:21:11. > :21:12.groped a colleague between her legs in a lift.
:21:13. > :21:16.Mr Emmerson has always strongly denied any wrongdoing.
:21:17. > :21:18.It was claimed that despite being aware of the disclosure,
:21:19. > :21:21.the inquiry had dropped an investigation into
:21:22. > :21:29.Three weeks ago MPs described the child abuse inquiry's
:21:30. > :21:33.handling of the disclosure as wholly inadequate.
:21:34. > :21:36.Shortly after Newsnight's broadcast, Matrix, the legal chambers
:21:37. > :21:39.where Mr Emmerson practices, began their own inquiry.
:21:40. > :21:45.It was led by former Director of Public Prosecutions Sir
:21:46. > :21:52.Matrix are not publishing their reports or any extracts from it,
:21:53. > :21:54.but today they revealed that in Sir David's view,
:21:55. > :21:57.Ben Emmerson has no case to answer on the question of misconduct.
:21:58. > :22:38.Shortly afterwards, Ben Emmerson said through his lawyers:
:22:39. > :22:41.Newsnight understands the report acknowledges
:22:42. > :22:48.A number of lawyers at Matrix have told us that they are unhappy
:22:49. > :22:50.with today's statement from their chambers.
:22:51. > :22:53.And it is understood that Aileen McColgan,
:22:54. > :23:03.herself a former lawyer on the child abuse inquiry, has resigned
:23:04. > :23:05.from her role as equalities and diversity officer
:23:06. > :23:09.The inquiry worker who made the disclosure of sexual assault,
:23:10. > :23:13.And for the child sexual abuse inquiry, the question
:23:14. > :23:15.of how it responded to the original disclosure remains.
:23:16. > :23:21.It is reviewing the criticisms made by MPs.
:23:22. > :23:24.Back at the time of the referendum, Newsnight visited Burnley
:23:25. > :23:26.on more than one occasion, to test the views
:23:27. > :23:30.Like many northern towns, it voted for Leave by a big margin -
:23:31. > :23:37.There's no such thing as a typical town, but you can say that Burnley
:23:38. > :23:39.fits a type that is much in the minds of policy
:23:40. > :23:43.It's a manufacturing town with about 87,000 people,
:23:44. > :23:46.about a tenth of those are of Asian heritage, and there's been
:23:47. > :23:51.As we look back on the year of 2016 and the revolution we have
:23:52. > :23:54.witnessed, we thought we'd send film-maker Nick Blakemore back
:23:55. > :24:07.to Burnley, to see what how people are feeling now.
:24:08. > :24:17.I haven't noticed any massive changes as of yet.
:24:18. > :24:21.I suppose we're all waiting for something to happen.
:24:22. > :24:33.With Brexit? Yeah.
:24:34. > :24:35.It was about change, it was about making changes.
:24:36. > :24:38.The state of the country is getting worse.
:24:39. > :24:42.It seems like it's getting worse and worse.
:24:43. > :24:51.There's a lot of homelessness, people who can't afford to eat.
:24:52. > :25:02.So I suppose from someone who is not in that situation,
:25:03. > :25:05.looking at it from an outside point of view, you think, God,
:25:06. > :25:09.And maybe, you know, we are looking for changes,
:25:10. > :25:13.but we don't quite know where to look for it.
:25:14. > :25:18.I live with my partner and my little boy.
:25:19. > :25:22.Let me just check I've got your spellings.
:25:23. > :25:28.I can't work full time because I've got my child to sort out.
:25:29. > :25:51.I have friends and things who would have him, but I couldn't
:25:52. > :25:53.expect them to do it on a regular basis really.
:25:54. > :26:06.I voted Remain because I think that I believe a strong Europe
:26:07. > :26:10.However, I respect the democracy in this country.
:26:11. > :26:12.This is a beautiful country in terms of democracy.
:26:13. > :26:18.And I would go along with the decision of
:26:19. > :26:21.the majority of people in this country.
:26:22. > :26:25.A lot of families settled in this area are from Europe,
:26:26. > :26:34.from the Asian community, and they had a fear that
:26:35. > :26:37.if they voted out for exit, their families and friends would not
:26:38. > :26:56.One of the most deprived areas in Burnley.
:26:57. > :27:01.Here we have my friend Nick from the BBC.
:27:02. > :27:06.This is not only the local businessman but also a very
:27:07. > :27:08.experienced social worker and community worker
:27:09. > :27:17.They should stay with Europe, it is better for Britain.
:27:18. > :27:26.Economically it is better for Britain.
:27:27. > :27:28.I'm against letting criminals into the country or bad
:27:29. > :27:31.people into the country, but those that want to come
:27:32. > :27:36.I wouldn't do a cleaner's job, and I don't think a lot of people
:27:37. > :27:38.would go around cleaning, but these immigrants,
:27:39. > :27:56.So how do you think we could support you a little bit better?
:27:57. > :27:59.How do you think we could help you with that?
:28:00. > :28:02.What we do here is offer support that used to be offered
:28:03. > :28:05.People come in and they have been unemployed
:28:06. > :28:17.You have no income coming in, so it's a struggle.
:28:18. > :28:19.I will just do the banking for today.
:28:20. > :28:28.We have very little funding, meaning that the staff are each
:28:29. > :28:32.having to make sacrifices in order to do the job as well as we can do.
:28:33. > :28:43.I always thought Labour were for the people,
:28:44. > :28:45.for the working class, and I fit in with
:28:46. > :28:55.But when we had the Gordon Brown man come in, the things he did on the TV
:28:56. > :28:58.really put me off Labour and I thought, they're not
:28:59. > :29:11.really ordinary working class people after all.
:29:12. > :29:14.I moved to Lancashire because I found a good job.
:29:15. > :29:17.No one is ever touching me because I'm Polish, because I'm gay,
:29:18. > :29:19.because I live here, no one give me any problem.
:29:20. > :29:22.England is a more tolerant country and in Poland there is a lot
:29:23. > :29:29.It is a Catholic country and it is very hard to find some
:29:30. > :29:32.space to live if you have a partner, to live like a normal person.
:29:33. > :29:34.A lot of people talking about Brexit, and a lot
:29:35. > :29:40.of people asking me, what is this Brexit?
:29:41. > :30:36.I've got a friend and he said, did you vote to leave the Brexit, then?
:30:37. > :30:39.Out of the blue, because it's not something I really
:30:40. > :30:42.And I said I did, actually, and he said, well,
:30:43. > :30:46.I've never heard anything so ridiculous.
:30:47. > :30:51.But he took it as a personal thing to the Asian community.
:30:52. > :30:53.I had not even thought about the Asian community
:30:54. > :30:57.in my vote, so it was nothing to do with it.
:30:58. > :31:02.And I'm sure a lot of people haven't...
:31:03. > :31:04.I pointed out, you are British as well!
:31:05. > :31:13.You know, you were born here, so you are British.
:31:14. > :31:15.So why am I racist against you? You know.
:31:16. > :31:18.People have voted now so you can't really, you know...
:31:19. > :31:25.You know, there were no sort of questions
:31:26. > :31:40.Well, you heard Diane there, a traditional Labour voter,
:31:41. > :31:42.who went off the party after Gordon Brown.
:31:43. > :31:47.Now Burnley is a Labour town, in fact Labour took the seat back
:31:48. > :31:50.from the Lib Dems at the last election, but Ukip got 17%
:31:51. > :31:52.of the vote, and arguably the most fascinating contest
:31:53. > :31:57.in politics over the next few years is the one for Diane's vote.
:31:58. > :32:01.Is it up for grabs? And who can grab it?
:32:02. > :32:03.That's a question I put to Andy Burnham,
:32:04. > :32:06.and Labour candidate for the new metro mayor
:32:07. > :32:13.of Great Manchester in the election next year.
:32:14. > :32:16.The party has been too London-centric for too long.
:32:17. > :32:18.Policies haven't been put forward in places like Burnley and mine.
:32:19. > :32:21.You know, the London perspective on life dominates national policy,
:32:22. > :32:23.so when the North needed help with the manufacturing industry,
:32:24. > :32:29.And on housing, when the North needed help with affordable
:32:30. > :32:31.homes to rent, it was all about selling them off.
:32:32. > :32:34.So national policy has not helped communities
:32:35. > :32:39.To what extent do you think immigration is the issue that really
:32:40. > :32:42.drives this and has driven a wedge, if you like, between traditional
:32:43. > :32:47.Well, it has become the lightning rod for their feeling,
:32:48. > :32:51.the sense that politicians in Westminster are out of touch.
:32:52. > :32:58.It has become the issue that people have used to illustrate that,
:32:59. > :33:02.and I think the truth about it is free movement of labour
:33:03. > :33:04.had a differential impact on different parts of the country.
:33:05. > :33:06.For the big cities, absolutely had brought people
:33:07. > :33:09.in and boosted growth, but for the former industrial
:33:10. > :33:14.parts of the country, the part of the country
:33:15. > :33:16.that I represent, it was having a more complicated effect.
:33:17. > :33:21.It was putting pressure on wages, on GP services, on primary schools,
:33:22. > :33:24.and there was a feeling there that the elite weren't seeing that
:33:25. > :33:33.And I think those are the feelings that came through at the referendum.
:33:34. > :33:35.Let's talk about the Labour Party, though, and whether it agrees
:33:36. > :33:38.Basically, your party is run from London,
:33:39. > :33:42.the Foreign Secretary, the shadow is the next constituency,
:33:43. > :33:44.Diane Abbott, Home Secretary, London MP.
:33:45. > :33:49.They don't agree with what you're saying, or they certainly
:33:50. > :33:52.don't agree with the sentiment that immigration
:33:53. > :34:05.Well, I have spoken up on that, and I have said that I think
:34:06. > :34:08.there needs to be an acceptance that the majority of people voted
:34:09. > :34:10.for a change in the way free movement works.
:34:11. > :34:13.And in my view, the party has to face up to that.
:34:14. > :34:16.But you're right, I think it's not just the Labour Party, I might say,
:34:17. > :34:19.it's the system of governance that we have in our country.
:34:20. > :34:26.it is heavily focused on people who live within the M25. I suppose it is
:34:27. > :34:29.a real problem for the Labour Party, because it aspires to being a
:34:30. > :34:33.government, and it cannot win an election without some of these
:34:34. > :34:37.voters voting for the party. Diane Abbott, in response to you saying
:34:38. > :34:40.that free movement is no longer an option, she apparently smoked and
:34:41. > :34:43.said Andy has always had these views, but you cannot have access to
:34:44. > :34:49.the single market without free movement. I just wonder if the
:34:50. > :34:51.coalition that is the Labour Party is breaking down, metropolitan
:34:52. > :34:56.London liberals and Northern working-class voters who have been
:34:57. > :35:00.bound up in the same party - they don't actually agree. I have worried
:35:01. > :35:06.about that, and I think the referendum has brought that fault
:35:07. > :35:10.line out. I would say to Diane, it is not about my views, it is about
:35:11. > :35:15.what millions of people in the North think, who are not in any way racist
:35:16. > :35:20.or xenophobic, but they see this as had a direct impact on life in a
:35:21. > :35:23.communities. And she would say that you need to teach them they bring in
:35:24. > :35:27.tax revenues to pay for public services. Do you believe the people
:35:28. > :35:30.of Burnley are right, or do you think the people of Burnley are
:35:31. > :35:34.wrong but we have to listen to them and follow what they say? I would
:35:35. > :35:38.never have any truck with xenophobia or racism, and I will always
:35:39. > :35:44.challenge it. But there are practical and legitimate concerns
:35:45. > :35:48.that people in Burnley, Leigh and elsewhere raised... But it is not
:35:49. > :35:52.just about following them, do you believe it? I don't believe free
:35:53. > :35:56.movement was working for those places, because it was having a real
:35:57. > :36:00.impact on wages. There is evidence from the Bank of England that free
:36:01. > :36:05.movement in semi and unskilled occupations has held wages down or
:36:06. > :36:08.even taken them further down. So why wouldn't people have a concern about
:36:09. > :36:13.that? My argument is there is nothing socialist about a system of
:36:14. > :36:16.the free movement of labour where big companies use people like
:36:17. > :36:20.commodities to move them around Europe to drive down labour costs.
:36:21. > :36:26.The left has to kind of rate out of this thing that everything that
:36:27. > :36:31.comes out of Europe is great, we need to reassess things. In the
:36:32. > :36:35.polls, it bounces up and down, Labour is about 14 points behind the
:36:36. > :36:40.Conservatives. In Scotland, Labour was running behind the
:36:41. > :36:46.Conservatives. What on earth can change in the next year, two years?
:36:47. > :36:50.We have to see the party repair its relationship with the nation.
:36:51. > :36:54.Devolution to the English regions was not conceived as the answer to
:36:55. > :36:59.Brexit, but it must be embraced as such, and it creates an opportunity
:37:00. > :37:03.for the party to get closer to people again. I have been in
:37:04. > :37:06.Westminster for over 15 years, and I have seen how it has drifted away
:37:07. > :37:10.from people, I have seen the London centric approach to life that does
:37:11. > :37:15.not provide answers for many parts of the North of England. My
:37:16. > :37:19.frustration with it has led me to want to leave it and say, actually,
:37:20. > :37:24.I would rather devote my energy there to building a northern Labour
:37:25. > :37:27.voice, if you like, so we can represent more directly the feelings
:37:28. > :37:32.that people have and develop answers that are right for them. You know,
:37:33. > :37:36.the problem was Labour in government gave devolution to London, Scotland
:37:37. > :37:39.and Wales, and their voice got longer, but it failed in northern
:37:40. > :37:46.England because the north-east people rejected it. That has left a
:37:47. > :37:48.gap in the way our country is governed. Andy Burnham, thank you.
:37:49. > :37:50.Have you ever detected a preponderance of white models
:37:51. > :37:54.One woman thought she'd draw attention to that issue
:37:55. > :37:56.in a rather arty way, by remaking some of the slickest
:37:57. > :37:59.and sexiest ads, putting herself, a black woman, into the place
:38:00. > :38:06.Deddeh Howard is a medicine student and fashion blogger based in LA,
:38:07. > :38:19.A little earlier, I asked why she thought fashion houses booked so few
:38:20. > :38:21.black models. You know, I think that the fashion
:38:22. > :38:25.industry have an image out there that white are more beautiful,
:38:26. > :38:27.so that's all we see, that is why there's
:38:28. > :38:31.so many white advertisements. it's more aspiration to
:38:32. > :38:37.women out there, which I personally think
:38:38. > :38:39.is not the case. I think that beauty
:38:40. > :38:42.is within everything. We are different,
:38:43. > :38:46.black and white and in between, we are all different
:38:47. > :38:48.and we are all diverse, and I think that is what should
:38:49. > :38:53.be represented. Given the size of the Asian markets
:38:54. > :38:57.and how big they are becoming, it is odd we don't see more Asian
:38:58. > :39:01.women in these ads, you would think. Exactly, that's the whole point -
:39:02. > :39:06.why are we not seeing that? It's because of this really biased
:39:07. > :39:11.image that the fashion industry have been born into,
:39:12. > :39:14.and it's just kept that. Is that because you don't
:39:15. > :39:18.think it is racism? Or because you are reluctant
:39:19. > :39:21.to use that word? I think the fashion industry
:39:22. > :39:23.is just used to putting those images in our face,
:39:24. > :39:28.and people don't speak out about it, or when they do,
:39:29. > :39:31.they get ignored, and they just keep doing
:39:32. > :39:33.those things. So I think if people speak out,
:39:34. > :39:38.it doesn't have to be about racists, it just has to be about including
:39:39. > :39:42.more people, because these pictures prove that diversity is more
:39:43. > :39:44.capable, can do even better than just the race that
:39:45. > :39:51.we see all the time. I have to say you have done
:39:52. > :39:54.a very good job Because the advertisers,
:39:55. > :39:58.they spend a lot of money on them, and you haven't spent the same money
:39:59. > :40:01.on your remakes that they spent. I have to pay attention
:40:02. > :40:03.to school and other things, and Raffael Dickreuter and I
:40:04. > :40:10.took all these pictures, we took all these pictures
:40:11. > :40:15.in our living room with a very low budget compared to these brands
:40:16. > :40:20.that have huge budgets. Thanks, nice talking to you.
:40:21. > :40:39.Thank you. Just as we were coming on air, some
:40:40. > :40:44.news from Yahoo affected by a hack, get this, 1 billion people affected
:40:45. > :40:48.by it. It does not appear to be financial data, names, phone
:40:49. > :40:51.numbers, passwords and e-mail addresses, but not bank and payment
:40:52. > :40:55.data. Apparently, that is the largest hack from a single source,
:40:56. > :40:58.Russian hackers have managed to get data from 1.2 billion, but that was
:40:59. > :40:59.lots of different people. That's all we've got
:41:00. > :41:01.time for this evening. But before we go,
:41:02. > :41:03.National Geographic named its best We thought we'd share them with you.
:41:04. > :41:54.Good night. It looks like a pretty great start
:41:55. > :41:59.to the UK for many parts of the UK, particularly so eastern Scotland,
:42:00. > :42:02.the north-east of England,