:00:00. > :00:08.He says history is being written today by every citizen of Syria.
:00:09. > :00:11.But what kind of gruesome history is it?
:00:12. > :00:14.At last, there is peace in eastern Aleppo, or what's left of it.
:00:15. > :00:19.But the Syrian war is far from over, unless politics can intervene.
:00:20. > :00:22.In the meantime, rebels are being evacuated to another enclave,
:00:23. > :00:26.which could be the scene of the next battle.
:00:27. > :00:29.And as people leave Aleppo, we'll talk to this doctor
:00:30. > :00:32.who's on his way back the region to help the injured.
:00:33. > :00:42.Also tonight: The new geopolitical weapon - hacking.
:00:43. > :00:51.I believe the leak was a large part of why Hillary had real problems
:00:52. > :00:55.with him enyams and why she did not hit her targets in the states trump
:00:56. > :00:58.won. Could it have been the difference? Absolutely.
:00:59. > :01:00.Well, we have to be very careful of this 1930s comparison.
:01:01. > :01:07.The fact is, it's the only history that's taught in our schools.
:01:08. > :01:09.One of the reasons everyone's mentioning it
:01:10. > :01:12.is because it's the only history anyone knows anymore.
:01:13. > :01:24.Where does history tell us we may be heading?
:01:25. > :01:29.When the world looks back on the last 17 days of horror that
:01:30. > :01:31.eastern Aleppo has just endured, it will undoubtedly wonder how
:01:32. > :01:34.the brutality of medieval warfare could have imposed itself
:01:35. > :01:39.Why did the two mechanisms of world authority -
:01:40. > :01:42.the United Nations and the United States - both fail?
:01:43. > :01:45.And how could the battle have gone on so long once one side
:01:46. > :01:50.These are interesting questions, but today, at least,
:01:51. > :01:53.there are more hopeful images from Aleppo than we've
:01:54. > :01:59.Let's have a look at four scenes that tell the story of today.
:02:00. > :02:02.First, the Syrian flag being raised over eastern Aleppo.
:02:03. > :02:05.Let's not forget, this is the day that Assad hailed
:02:06. > :02:08.what he called Aleppo's liberation as an historic event.
:02:09. > :02:11.Second, the buses on their way to evacuate civilians,
:02:12. > :02:14.rebels and their families from the remaining rebel-held
:02:15. > :02:20.Meanwhile, overhead, Putin is watching.
:02:21. > :02:24.This is footage of the buses today from the Russian Defence Ministry.
:02:25. > :02:28.And finally, civilians waiting to move back into East Aleppo.
:02:29. > :02:31.The children are chanting in praise of Assad -
:02:32. > :02:36.a useful reminder that not all Syrians are anti-Government.
:02:37. > :02:40.It was not a day for joy, but it was one of relief.
:02:41. > :02:43.Now the professional journalists have had difficulty in getting
:02:44. > :02:46.access to Eastern Aleppo, but the shelling there has been
:02:47. > :02:49.vividly reported thanks to smartphones and social media.
:02:50. > :03:36.And if that's been true of the attack on Aleppo,
:03:37. > :03:43.The skies are clear, the birds chirping and people are leaving
:03:44. > :04:33.besieged Aleppo and I'm hoping that I will be doing the same thing.
:04:34. > :04:35.Dr Zaher Sahloul is from the Syrian American Medical Society
:04:36. > :04:38.and is part of a medical convoy heading to the country this weekend
:04:39. > :04:40.to help build a hospital to treat those injured
:04:41. > :04:52.How much contact have you had today with the people there in terms of
:04:53. > :04:57.how the evacuation has been going? I was fixated on my cellphone looking
:04:58. > :05:00.at the reports and texts coming from my colleagues inside Aleppo. These
:05:01. > :05:06.are the doctors and nurses I spent my last medical commission with
:05:07. > :05:10.right before the siege. And they were updating me about the
:05:11. > :05:14.evacuation process and I had a sigh of relief that it happened without
:05:15. > :05:18.hiccups this time. Relatively smooth. When you get back there,
:05:19. > :05:23.there will be a generation of children deeply scarred by what
:05:24. > :05:29.they've been through. Every child I've seen in Aleppo, even before
:05:30. > :05:33.these last few months, was scarred. They have been under siege, they
:05:34. > :05:38.have shortage of food, medicine, there is no schooling, there is
:05:39. > :05:42.bombing and every one of them will have trauma deep in planted in their
:05:43. > :05:47.psyche for the rest of their lives. And physically disabled as well?
:05:48. > :05:53.Yes, and this is a problem Syria has to live with in the long term. We
:05:54. > :05:58.saw the child motionless in the ambulance. How quickly do you think
:05:59. > :06:02.those kids will recover? It will take a generation or more for them
:06:03. > :06:07.to recover. Syria does not have the capacity to deal with the cycle --
:06:08. > :06:11.psychological impact of the crisis. We also have a large number of
:06:12. > :06:15.people injured because the amputations and spinal cord injuries
:06:16. > :06:21.in Syria. It will take a look of effort and let's not forget that we
:06:22. > :06:30.have 50% of the refugees outside Syria who are children. -- a lot of
:06:31. > :06:34.effort. Do you ever reflect on how the human race could do better in
:06:35. > :06:38.solving these disputes? Iowa to reflect on the fact that the
:06:39. > :06:45.president of Syria was trained to be a doctor and he is overseeing the
:06:46. > :06:49.destruction of many cities in his country, displacement of Hop
:06:50. > :06:59.population, the injury of one and a half million people. -- his
:07:00. > :07:02.population. The day that Nero burned Rome, the emperor, that was a
:07:03. > :07:08.historic day. It is a historic day when you have a president trained to
:07:09. > :07:11.be a physician overseeing the killing of 350 hospitals and the
:07:12. > :07:16.killing of doctors and nurses in Syria. I was at school with him and
:07:17. > :07:24.nobody expected him to be that brutal always was. Have you met with
:07:25. > :07:27.him since? Yes. I asked him about introducing democracy in Syria and
:07:28. > :07:32.he said they are not ready for democracy, Syrians. You never, ever
:07:33. > :07:38.see a clue as to what horror can be inflicted by him from the kid you
:07:39. > :07:46.knew at school? No. Many of us believe he is a war criminal and any
:07:47. > :07:49.person who believes in the stability of Syria, they don't perceive him as
:07:50. > :07:54.being part of the picture of the future of Syria. Do you think it
:07:55. > :08:00.took too long for the point of surrender to be reached in eastern
:08:01. > :08:04.Aleppo? Definitely. It was over weeks ago. They couldn't win from
:08:05. > :08:08.that position. And of course there was a lot of suffering in the last
:08:09. > :08:17.days as they held out. Definitely. Everybody knew this was happening.
:08:18. > :08:20.What is the surprise is that the international community and Nato and
:08:21. > :08:26.the United Nations did not intervene earlier. The evacuation of 250,000
:08:27. > :08:30.people from their homes and neighbourhoods happening now, this
:08:31. > :08:36.is what is called ethnic cleansing, forced evacuation, and this is a
:08:37. > :08:40.tragedy we have to live with for the foreseeable future. It is obviously
:08:41. > :08:43.a tragedy. The scary prospect is that you will get the same thing
:08:44. > :08:53.again in the place people have moved to. How can that... I mean, what is
:08:54. > :08:57.happening here? How is it saying to move people from one enclave to
:08:58. > :09:05.another where they can be pummelled again? Everything happening in Syria
:09:06. > :09:09.is that history is rewritten and the use of chemical weapons, more than
:09:10. > :09:15.168 times, the use of siege as a tactic of war, on both sides. What
:09:16. > :09:23.happened in Aleppo happened in the city of Homs, as well as other
:09:24. > :09:27.cities before. Killing children, bombing hospitals. These are the new
:09:28. > :09:34.norms in Syria. It is dangerous not only for Syrians but for refugees.
:09:35. > :09:39.The rise of the extreme West, sorry, right. And the terrorism we are
:09:40. > :09:46.witnessing is all what is happening in Syria. You are going back to
:09:47. > :09:51.what? Under whose auspices do you go back and build a hospital? Under the
:09:52. > :09:59.Syrian government? You will be in their region now. The NGOs have been
:10:00. > :10:07.part of the solution and they are the hope Syrians are looking for.
:10:08. > :10:12.There is a British NGO and representatives, and they are going
:10:13. > :10:15.symbolically to build a hospital that was destroyed. This is our
:10:16. > :10:21.statement to tell the doctors of Syria we are with them, we are
:10:22. > :10:24.standing up with them, and this is also to say, shame on you, you did
:10:25. > :10:29.not stop the genocide in Syria but we will do our part and we will be
:10:30. > :10:30.the ones we're building the country after it has been destroyed. Thank
:10:31. > :10:33.you. The news yesterday that Yahoo had,
:10:34. > :10:36.without noticing, been robbed of data on a billion users capped
:10:37. > :10:39.a year in which hacking has rarely The idea that the Russians might
:10:40. > :10:43.try to steal emails in order to discredit a candidate
:10:44. > :10:46.in an American election would have Now it's what intelligence services
:10:47. > :10:53.think actually happened. It's a development with all sorts
:10:54. > :10:56.of implications, not least the questions it raises
:10:57. > :10:58.for journalists about how Newsnight's editor Ian Katz,
:10:59. > :11:01.who was involved in covering some of the biggest leaks of recent
:11:02. > :11:22.years, dusted off his Our digital world is frighteningly
:11:23. > :11:27.leaky. The medical records of top athletes, the internal debates of a
:11:28. > :11:33.presidential campaign, scarcely a month goes by without some new cache
:11:34. > :11:38.of sensitive data being thrown into the harsh glare of public scrutiny.
:11:39. > :11:44.And, increasingly, it is states who are putting them there. It's a new
:11:45. > :11:49.kind of information war. One that challenges the very idea of what
:11:50. > :11:57.pre-assy means in a digital world. And one that poses new and difficult
:11:58. > :11:59.questions for journalists. The President earlier this week
:12:00. > :12:05.instructed the intelligence community to conduct a full review
:12:06. > :12:10.of the pattern of malicious cyber activity related to our presidential
:12:11. > :12:14.election cycle. An election full of twists has saved one of its most
:12:15. > :12:19.breathtaking till last. A President-Elect is locked in a
:12:20. > :12:24.stand-off with the CIA over whether Russia mounted a hacking campaign to
:12:25. > :12:29.help put him in the White House. I think it's ridiculous. WikiLeaks
:12:30. > :12:36.today released a brand new batch of hacked e-mail. Mira served as a
:12:37. > :12:42.close aide to Hillary Clinton and was a confidante of John Pedester
:12:43. > :12:48.who's hacked emails were leaked daily during the last weeks of
:12:49. > :12:55.campaign. As the emails were leaked there were a string of awkward
:12:56. > :13:01.headlines. Do we actually know who told Hillary she could use a private
:13:02. > :13:06.e-mail and has that person been drawn and quartered? I was watching
:13:07. > :13:10.TV. There was one of my emails on TV. The next day, a Twitter storm
:13:11. > :13:18.developed because of something I'd said. It was just like, it became a
:13:19. > :13:23.daily humiliation. Just ever-present terrible experience. It became one
:13:24. > :13:31.where every morning I'd have to brace myself for some new e-mail
:13:32. > :13:36.coming out in which I'd have to apologise to somebody or mostly deal
:13:37. > :13:41.with people ruffling through your most private thoughts and sticking
:13:42. > :13:45.them on the internet. It was the worst experience I've ever had
:13:46. > :13:50.professionally. Whatever the precise intention of those behind the hack,
:13:51. > :13:59.it. Anden has little doubt about its impacted. I believe the leak was a
:14:00. > :14:04.large part of why Hillary had real problems with Millenials, which is
:14:05. > :14:07.why she did not hit her targets in the three states Trump won. Could it
:14:08. > :14:13.have been the difference? Absolutely. People have to live with
:14:14. > :14:17.that. There's nothing new about states hacking system of other
:14:18. > :14:24.states for commercial information and security secrets. And nothing
:14:25. > :14:26.new about getting hold of embarrassing information to
:14:27. > :14:32.discredit them. The Russians even have a word for it. What the latest
:14:33. > :14:36.attacks have done is bring together these two tactics to create a new
:14:37. > :14:41.one, the data leak has been weaponised. So, the from e-mail at
:14:42. > :14:48.first glance looks like Google security. If you go into the text
:14:49. > :14:52.behind the e-mail, you can see it's send from a Yandex e-mail account.
:14:53. > :14:57.That's a Russian free mail web service. Tony is a former Pentagon
:14:58. > :15:04.analysts who spends her time identifying new online threats. The
:15:05. > :15:08.so-called spear fish Mel which caught out John Pedester was a scam
:15:09. > :15:13.all e-mail users are familiar with. But it bore the digital fingerprints
:15:14. > :15:17.of a hacking group linked to Russian intelligence. There's a brazenness
:15:18. > :15:21.in the attacks we've seen this year that is has been surprising. The
:15:22. > :15:26.Russians don't seem to care that this activity is being attributed to
:15:27. > :15:31.them. There's also a meanness to it. They're willing to dump a tremendous
:15:32. > :15:36.amount of personal and private information as part of these
:15:37. > :15:39.attacks. These attacks have been attributed by the US Government as
:15:40. > :15:44.something shared by the number of companies in the private sector.
:15:45. > :15:49.Where does this leave reporters and editors who avenue always had to
:15:50. > :15:54.think carefully about a source's motives. Five years ago I
:15:55. > :15:59.collaborated with WikiLeaks to publish stories of thousands of
:16:00. > :16:04.leaked US cables. Some criticised but few doubted the motivation of
:16:05. > :16:09.the person who leaked them. Bradley, now Chelsea manning, was so
:16:10. > :16:14.convinced she had to expose what she considered to be an abuse of power,
:16:15. > :16:20.she was prepared to go to jail for it. But how should news
:16:21. > :16:26.organisations behave when they're effectively handed thrives of
:16:27. > :16:31.confidential information by foreign states with transpartent --
:16:32. > :16:35.transparent motives. Some say we're becoming useful idiots when we
:16:36. > :16:41.publish damaging stories a hostile Government wants us to. What's to
:16:42. > :16:44.become of a cycling super hero? We questioned with that on Newsnight
:16:45. > :16:49.earlier this year. We ran a series of stories based on the medical
:16:50. > :16:54.files of top athletes, files we were pretty sure had been hack hacked by
:16:55. > :17:00.the Russians. It felt uneasy giving Moscow just what it wanted. But the
:17:01. > :17:05.public interests in examining if one of Britain's sporting here rows had
:17:06. > :17:12.broken the spirit of the rules if not the rules themselves was clear.
:17:13. > :17:16.Not all the revelations in these leaks are quite as significant.
:17:17. > :17:22.Thanks to Russian hackers, and a little help from chief stirrer
:17:23. > :17:27.Julian Assange, I can now make a pretty pass able risotto. As John
:17:28. > :17:36.Pedester said, it is all about adding the stock slowly. I also know
:17:37. > :17:44.this time, thanks to the north Korean yaps, that Tom Hanks uses the
:17:45. > :17:50.ail ya Johnny Madrid and Scot Ruden thinks Angelina Joel ary is a minute
:17:51. > :17:55.imalley talented spoilt brat. The question is, have we become too
:17:56. > :18:00.willing to serve up every tasty morsel provided by the hackers?
:18:01. > :18:06.Perhaps, unsurprisingly, some of those who've seen their own private
:18:07. > :18:09.communications sprayed across the internet, think it is. You have a
:18:10. > :18:16.quote from someone about somebody else. Under the veneer of
:18:17. > :18:20.journalism, reporters were totally trafficking in gossip. That's what
:18:21. > :18:25.they were doing. The New York Times has run a string of stories this
:18:26. > :18:28.year based on the Pedester emails and, before that, material hacked
:18:29. > :18:35.from the democratic national committee. I asked the paper's
:18:36. > :18:39.editor if the thought he might be doing Vladimir Putin's bidding keeps
:18:40. > :18:46.him up at night? Sure it does. But it would keep me up at nice worse,
:18:47. > :18:51.or at least longer, if I had information from a hack that I knew
:18:52. > :18:55.was accurate that voters and citizens needed to know and I'm not
:18:56. > :19:01.publishing because maybe it came from the Russians. I can't imagine a
:19:02. > :19:04.slipperier slope than that. At what point is my safe at home filled with
:19:05. > :19:13.information I can't report because I'm nervous about the source. If
:19:14. > :19:20.someone had brought you a carton of papers, actual hard paper papers and
:19:21. > :19:24.you knew for certain those were burgled from John Pedester's home,
:19:25. > :19:29.would you treat those the same as a caceh of emails? That's a good and
:19:30. > :19:35.hard question I've not had to confront yet. I would go through it.
:19:36. > :19:39.If it was really significant and important, I would publish it. It
:19:40. > :19:47.would make me nervous. I would admit to people how we got it. But I think
:19:48. > :19:50.the information Trumps all. There's a powerful argument it doesn't
:19:51. > :19:55.really matter how organisations like the New York Times and the BBC hack
:19:56. > :19:59.material because in the Wild West of the internet, there'll always be
:20:00. > :20:04.someone willing to publish. Some argue we should just accept there's
:20:05. > :20:09.no such thing a prove assy in our digital lives. One high profile
:20:10. > :20:13.victim of a major hack told me he communicates about all sensitive
:20:14. > :20:17.matters by fax or phone. Kieran Martin is the man charged with
:20:18. > :20:25.defending Britain against cyber attack. He's about to step out of
:20:26. > :20:29.the shadows of GCHQ to lead the new cybersecurity centre. He told me
:20:30. > :20:34.measures were taken to protect the British election from hackers but
:20:35. > :20:38.there is a danger the recent US experience will inspire Ore tackers.
:20:39. > :20:42.There are all sorts of threats from state cyber attackers. Threats to
:20:43. > :20:47.critical national systems. Threats to our economic well-being through
:20:48. > :20:54.commercial espionage. There may be a perception now this is a successful
:20:55. > :20:58.model for intervention in societies such as ours and our allies and
:20:59. > :21:04.that's something we need to be prepared to deal with. He insists
:21:05. > :21:07.we're a long way from giving up on the idea of prove assy. Stealing
:21:08. > :21:12.information for political, financial purposes is as old as human activity
:21:13. > :21:15.itself. The digital world gives people an opportunity to do that on
:21:16. > :21:21.a different scale. There's plenty to do to defend ourselves. We need a
:21:22. > :21:26.demystify ourselves. If we wrap the problem in a shroud of mystique.
:21:27. > :21:31.People eh people sitting at computers in far away places that
:21:32. > :21:36.cannot be contested that is an incressbly damaging attitude to
:21:37. > :21:43.take. Perhaps one detail of the US hacking story embodied the very
:21:44. > :21:52.human vulnerability Martin and his counterparts can do little about.
:21:53. > :21:56.When John Pedester received his mail, an aid and staffer replied
:21:57. > :22:03.saying it was legitimate. It was a type owe. He meant to type
:22:04. > :22:04.illegitimate. The course of mystery perhaps changed by two missing
:22:05. > :22:18.letters. There an extended interview on
:22:19. > :22:21.hacking on the Newsnight YouTube channel.
:22:22. > :22:24.It'll be our last programme tomorrow,
:22:25. > :22:28.There's always a tendency to think the moment we're living in
:22:29. > :22:33.but this year has surely been dizzyingly interesting.
:22:34. > :22:37.What's the right frame to view it through?
:22:38. > :22:40.But first, how will historians look back on it?
:22:41. > :22:43.We like to be first with the news, so I've been speaking to three,
:22:44. > :22:47.to get an early draft on the year that was, in its own way,
:22:48. > :22:59.President-Elect of the United States of America, Donald Trump.
:23:00. > :23:02.The year could be remembered for lots of things.
:23:03. > :23:04.The British people have made a very clear decision
:23:05. > :23:09.Well, Lenin said there are decades when nothing happens
:23:10. > :23:17.It was the year that globalisation went into reverse.
:23:18. > :23:18.And the nation state reasserted itself
:23:19. > :23:26.After decades of walls coming down...
:23:27. > :23:29...it was the year of barriers going up.
:23:30. > :23:39.A year that nationalism and naked tribalism
:23:40. > :23:47.I also want to fight for the preservation of our own identity.
:23:48. > :24:06.A year that traditional politics and its parties began to fall apart.
:24:07. > :24:09.Owen, you know perfectly well what the answer is - I voted remain.
:24:10. > :24:11.I'm very surprised and actually quite disappointed
:24:12. > :24:13.that you should even raise this question.
:24:14. > :24:14.The year the truth became stretched
:24:15. > :24:19.You bragged that you've sexually assaulted women.
:24:20. > :24:24.I don't think you understood what was said.
:24:25. > :24:34.Whether you like him or not, and I don't,
:24:35. > :24:36.he is clearly an incredibly talented 21st-century communicator.
:24:37. > :24:39.People will expect that from their leaders after 2016.
:24:40. > :24:42.For me, 2016 has been something of a blur.
:24:43. > :24:45.Not just a sense of events overtaking us.
:24:46. > :24:49.they've just been rather important ones.
:24:50. > :24:51.More a sense of assumptions changing.
:24:52. > :24:56.For many, it's disorienting and they reach out for historical parallels.
:24:57. > :25:02.Some reassuring ones or some obvious and rather dark ones.
:25:03. > :25:05.The most commonly cited comparator is the 1930s.
:25:06. > :25:18.You have outsider parties or outsider movements that arrive on
:25:19. > :25:20.the political scene saying, we're not the same as other people,
:25:21. > :25:25.that are not working for ordinary people.
:25:26. > :25:27.That becomes enormously seductive to people who
:25:28. > :25:33.do feel they've been left behind or their voices are disregarded.
:25:34. > :25:39.It wasn't just the Nazis - Italy, Spain all had their fascists too.
:25:40. > :25:41.There was Oswald Moseley in the UK and the
:25:42. > :25:51.left-wing populist Huey Long over in the US.
:25:52. > :25:53.Those outsider parties have been relatively contained in Western
:25:54. > :25:55.democracies since the end of the Second World War.
:25:56. > :26:02.And they're here and we're very worried about them.
:26:03. > :26:04.The '30s can also be remembered for a US-led
:26:05. > :26:09.adding to the disintegration of international co-operation.
:26:10. > :26:12.But I also think issues are very tricky at
:26:13. > :26:15.the moment in terms of the breakdown of what have been very, very secure
:26:16. > :26:23.Especially the EU, Nato, for all its faults.
:26:24. > :26:26.And these seem to be under great pressure.
:26:27. > :26:29.If you lose the structures of international collaboration,
:26:30. > :26:31.such as they are, which allow people to think collectively
:26:32. > :26:36.or to think internationally, then, it is lost.
:26:37. > :26:40.internationalists were very, very difficult to find.
:26:41. > :26:44.VOICE-OVER: A vast pro-Nazi gathering,
:26:45. > :26:47.carrying on the pro-Nazi campaign of back to Germany.
:26:48. > :26:51.But historians are never keen on glib comparisons,
:26:52. > :26:54.By reaching for the most familiar piece of history,
:26:55. > :27:02.We have to be very careful of this 1930s comparisons.
:27:03. > :27:05.The fact is, it's the only history taught in our schools.
:27:06. > :27:07.It's the only history anyone knows anymore.
:27:08. > :27:15.There are no militarised paramilitary organisations as there
:27:16. > :27:21.were in the 1930s, that really characterised 1930s.
:27:22. > :27:22.There aren't Stormtroopers or Blackshirts.
:27:23. > :27:31.This is, in many ways, the working of democracy.
:27:32. > :27:33.The working of democracy in the sense that?
:27:34. > :27:39.One of the great things about democracy is it reflects
:27:40. > :27:43.And they can make changes, radical changes,
:27:44. > :27:48.without having to turn to revolutionary violence.
:27:49. > :27:51.One of the roles of the media has to be not to
:27:52. > :27:59.indulge in hyperbolic Hitler-spotting.
:28:00. > :28:08.Perhaps then the year should be seen as one in which the elite were
:28:09. > :28:12.overthrown. I don't think it's so much the 1930s. Perhaps the 1830s is
:28:13. > :28:18.a better one. Then you have the Chancellor of Austria, the prince,
:28:19. > :28:23.and a group of like-minded monks and statesmen actually deciding what was
:28:24. > :28:30.good for Europe for 30 or 40 or 50 years, and they believed, a bit like
:28:31. > :28:35.the EU elite today, that they were absolutely right, there was no other
:28:36. > :28:38.way but their way, and of course gradually bubbling under was
:28:39. > :28:45.resistance to this, so maybe the 1830s instead of the 1930s. It's
:28:46. > :28:48.hard to make sense of 2016. The end of one kind of order but we haven't
:28:49. > :28:56.yet seen the construction of a new one.
:28:57. > :29:01.Two or three times you get a junction in the court -- course of
:29:02. > :29:03.history. And we had one. In the confusion of different directions.
:29:04. > :29:08.And that explains many of the contradictions we are seeing. Donald
:29:09. > :29:12.Trump getting the support of Americans are -- American
:29:13. > :29:16.Conservatives even though he's not a Conservative. He's an
:29:17. > :29:20.interventionist. Brexit. A vote against globalisation, and yet the
:29:21. > :29:26.Brexiteers say that we are going to become a beacon of global free
:29:27. > :29:30.trade. We all are over the place and a complete mess.
:29:31. > :29:33.So perhaps there are useful parallels to be drawn between the
:29:34. > :29:38.messy upsets that come along every now and then in the form of
:29:39. > :29:41.revolutions. Lenin definitely would have recognised this as a
:29:42. > :29:46.revolutionary moment and he would have found a way of seizing on it.
:29:47. > :29:50.Revolutions happen when assumptions that generations have had for very
:29:51. > :29:58.long periods have broken down and people no longer believe in them. We
:29:59. > :30:02.are seeing that very much in 2016. Russia, of course, had two
:30:03. > :30:07.revolutions in 1917. One overthrew the Czar and the odd assumptions. It
:30:08. > :30:12.was the second, months later, that saw an opportunistic Lenin grabbed
:30:13. > :30:20.power. He promised people everything and anything. He lied unashamedly.
:30:21. > :30:26.He identified a scapegoat that he could then blame for everything. He
:30:27. > :30:30.used the word "Elite" a lot. He said people had heard too much from
:30:31. > :30:36.experts. One feature of the current situation is not that events are
:30:37. > :30:40.just unpredictable, but that you can get perverse outcomes. Democracy has
:30:41. > :30:43.its foibles and the public can get things that perhaps they never
:30:44. > :30:50.really intended. You can have a binary vote, very evenly matched,
:30:51. > :30:53.but then that leads to quite an extreme outcome. Public preferences
:30:54. > :30:57.are quite complicated things. We all want the public to have their say
:30:58. > :31:02.but the challenge is to reduce that down to something simple while
:31:03. > :31:05.capturing some of the nuance, and to make sure that in the process the
:31:06. > :31:11.public does get what it really wants.
:31:12. > :31:15.Can the outcome sometimes be very perverse? That there is a sort of...
:31:16. > :31:20.The intended outcome of the revolution is not where the
:31:21. > :31:24.revolution ends up? Yes! One obvious one is the French Revolution. One of
:31:25. > :31:27.the most famous of them all, when they wanted to get rid of a king and
:31:28. > :31:34.ended up ten years later with an Emperor! Hitler was called to become
:31:35. > :31:38.Chancellor in 1933 and at that time he was intended to be the puppet of
:31:39. > :31:42.right wing Conservatives, and of course within weeks, he was out of
:31:43. > :31:51.control. So there is an unintended consequence of a major, major sort.
:31:52. > :31:54.1830s, 1917, 19 30s. Each history has something useful to say but none
:31:55. > :32:00.can really tell us where 2016 will lead. I don't think you've had the
:32:01. > :32:05.revolution yet, Evan. If the revolution is coming will know about
:32:06. > :32:12.it. It won't just be two unexpected elections. This is not 1917. This is
:32:13. > :32:13.the year democracy actually spoke. Comeback in 100 years and I'll tell
:32:14. > :32:16.you about 2016! Mary Kaldor is from
:32:17. > :32:18.the London School of Economics and John Fredricks is a Talk Radio
:32:19. > :32:30.host and joins us from Virginia. Mary, do you find yourself at all
:32:31. > :32:34.attracted to any comparisons to the 1930s, or are you Hitler-spotting if
:32:35. > :32:38.you look for them? There are two comparisons. This sense of
:32:39. > :32:43.foreboding. This sense we're in a phoney war and we haven't really
:32:44. > :32:48.felt the effects of Brexit and Donald Trump. And that something bad
:32:49. > :32:54.is going to happen. The other is this is all about the crisis of
:32:55. > :32:58.political representation. What is really disturbing, which ask is what
:32:59. > :33:03.happened in the thirties, is the way the opposition a caving in. You see
:33:04. > :33:07.the opposition on Brexit in this country, is totally accepting
:33:08. > :33:12.Brexit. Nobody is saying, look, we may have voted for Brexit but it's
:33:13. > :33:17.really bad for us. Everyone is caving in on immigration. We can't
:33:18. > :33:21.actually control immigration. If the opposition goes on and agrees to
:33:22. > :33:27.talk about control of immigration, it just feeds of right-wing
:33:28. > :33:31.discourse. And, more alarmingly, I think, it legitimises the growth of
:33:32. > :33:36.hate crime. I'm really nervous about where it will lead. We won't be able
:33:37. > :33:41.to control immigration. I think it could lead to really dangerous
:33:42. > :33:45.racism and violence in the future. That's a pessimistic view. John
:33:46. > :33:52.Fredricks. You're not in that camp. What do you think about people who
:33:53. > :33:58.evoke the 1930s at this point? Even, first of all, thanks for having me.
:33:59. > :34:01.Mary just gave you the view of the globalist elitist who don't really
:34:02. > :34:07.understand what's going on across the world. First of all, this has
:34:08. > :34:13.nothing to do with the 1930s movement towards fascism. That was
:34:14. > :34:19.about nationalism. This is about Severnity and jobs. This is a
:34:20. > :34:26.workers revolution. Has nothing to do with ethnicity or race. It is not
:34:27. > :34:32.a revolution of nationalism, it's a work lash. This is about jobs.
:34:33. > :34:37.People in various countries, they want their countries back. They've
:34:38. > :34:42.seen their jobs shipped all over the globe because the elite, globalist
:34:43. > :34:51.international gangsters bangster network has scoured the earth for
:34:52. > :34:54.cheap labour and shipped their jobs everywhere or they've let I will
:34:55. > :34:59.leaguals come in to take their jobs. This has nothing to do with anything
:35:00. > :35:05.accept people wanting jobs. Let me tell you something, with all the
:35:06. > :35:10.talk about whatever Mary was saying, the elitist gobble de gook you just
:35:11. > :35:14.heard, let me tell you something, economic prosperity and jobs is the
:35:15. > :35:22.great equaliser. The great unifier. A pay cheque has no ideology.
:35:23. > :35:28.Putting... John, can I come in... Very briefly. You're saying it is an
:35:29. > :35:34.anti-globalisation thing but it's not a nationalism thing? That's
:35:35. > :35:39.quite a subtle distinction. What's the difference between wanting your
:35:40. > :35:44.country back, making America grate again and being a nationalist?
:35:45. > :35:50.Because it's not about America. It's about American jobs. OK. That's
:35:51. > :35:59.good. This is a jobs revolution. OK. Mary? I completely agree that this
:36:00. > :36:04.was an anguished vote of those left behind by globalisation. But the
:36:05. > :36:10.answer to that cannot be nationalism. The answer has to be in
:36:11. > :36:13.Terre nationalism. It has to be dealing with those multinational
:36:14. > :36:17.corporations and taxing their safe havens which is what the European
:36:18. > :36:22.Union does. Regulating financial speculation. If we really want big
:36:23. > :36:26.programmes of sub lick spending in a globalised world, we can only do it
:36:27. > :36:31.through institutions like the European Union. And, so to argue
:36:32. > :36:37.this is an answer to the problem is crazy. Look, can I suggest what this
:36:38. > :36:44.year has been is a collapse of left/right dichotomy. What we have
:36:45. > :36:48.now represented here in this discussion is a new dichotomy. Open
:36:49. > :36:52.to the world. International collaboration is the solution to the
:36:53. > :36:57.nation state being the answer to the world's problems. John, you're
:36:58. > :37:03.basically, it's not really a right-wing or left-wing thing
:37:04. > :37:08.anymore. I can't place Donald Trump. He's an interventionists difficult
:37:09. > :37:13.to place. We know where he stands on the national versus globalism
:37:14. > :37:18.spectrum. Is that fair as to where politics as moved, John? Evan,
:37:19. > :37:23.you're right. This is a transformational president.
:37:24. > :37:27.President-elect trump is transforming the hub can party in
:37:28. > :37:34.America. The real bottom line to this is, I disagree with Mary on
:37:35. > :37:40.this, Mary, what this whole movement is about across the globe, both in
:37:41. > :37:47.the UK and France, just happened in the United States, is people want
:37:48. > :37:56.their countries back but it's not a movement of nationalism. It's a
:37:57. > :37:59.movement of protecting jobs. The international bankster network
:38:00. > :38:07.scours the earth for cheap slave labour in order to cut out workers
:38:08. > :38:12.that make a decent wage. When you get down to it, this whole argument,
:38:13. > :38:19.everything that's happening, the reaction is to the globalist search
:38:20. > :38:23.for cheap slave labour and they cut out the jobs of people in those
:38:24. > :38:30.sovereign nations. So, I want to stop this. Get my jobs back. Mary, I
:38:31. > :38:33.think of you as a liberal left-leaning person. John is
:38:34. > :38:41.sounding so much more left-wing than you do. Almost a Marxist, this is a
:38:42. > :38:48.capitalist not almost to drive wages down? I don't disagree with him
:38:49. > :38:52.about globalisation. But I think globalisation has also brought huge
:38:53. > :38:59.benefits. The problem is, we've had dramatic economic growth. But it's
:39:00. > :39:04.only benefitted the rich. If we want, we can't go backwards on
:39:05. > :39:07.globalisation. Globalisation is not just about multinational
:39:08. > :39:12.corporations and free trade. It's about international communication.
:39:13. > :39:19.It's about inter dependence. So, if we want to do anything about it, the
:39:20. > :39:25.only way is by having a say. Taming it by international co-operation?
:39:26. > :39:30.Yes. And, by the way, I want to add, it's rubbish to say it's not
:39:31. > :39:34.nationalism. That stuff about making America great again, not allowing
:39:35. > :39:39.Muslims into the United States, that is not just about jobs. That's pure
:39:40. > :39:44.racism. I think we've lost John. At this point we need to stop anyway.
:39:45. > :39:47.Mary, thank you. John, we might have lost the sound feed to you,
:39:48. > :39:48.annoyingly. Your point was well made.
:39:49. > :39:53.But before we go, we couldn't leave you without marking the 250th
:39:54. > :40:01.They began life in the mid-1700s, when so-called "dissecting puzzles"
:40:02. > :40:05.were handmade by cartographers to help teach children about maps,
:40:06. > :40:08.and really took off at the turn of the last century after production
:40:09. > :40:12.was sped up by the invention of a new mechanical saw known as -
:40:13. > :40:17.An exhibition celebrating the puzzles opened today
:40:18. > :40:20.at the Museum of Brands, Packaging and Advertising in London.
:40:21. > :40:23.Anyway, here's what a Newsnight jigsaw might look like.
:40:24. > :40:26.We got our resident hand model to solve it for us.
:40:27. > :41:25.Hello. Still no sign of anything particularly cold on the horizon. A
:41:26. > :41:26.mild start to the day tomorrow. Rain for Northern Ireland pushing into