:00:11. > :00:14.Is that the low rumble of an earthquake we can hear,
:00:15. > :00:18.rattling the Elysee Palace, shaking up France?
:00:19. > :00:20.Could she really win the Presidential election in 2017?
:00:21. > :00:26.And what on earth would she do if she did?
:00:27. > :00:28.But even if she loses France could be changing direction.
:00:29. > :00:31.We'll try to work out where the country
:00:32. > :00:35.is going and what it means for the rest of us?
:00:36. > :00:49.You to continue to look for work or your benefit
:00:50. > :00:59.The sanctions regime: life for those who've had welfare
:01:00. > :01:06.Ken Loach, the maker of I, Daniel Blake,
:01:07. > :01:09.will be here to discuss whether benefit sanctions have a place.
:01:10. > :01:12.They come from the same background, maybe they went to the same
:01:13. > :01:16.And they work together to build a brilliant company but then at some
:01:17. > :01:18.point they realise they need to start focusing on people
:01:19. > :01:21.who didn't come from the same background as them and did not go
:01:22. > :01:33.to the same university and do not look like them.
:01:34. > :01:37.How the royalty of Silicon Valley are coping in America.
:01:38. > :01:42.We know President Hollande will not be in power after May.
:01:43. > :01:48.What is to be determined is who will replace him.
:01:49. > :01:51.Marine Le Pen of the Front National hopes to pull a Trump-like shock,
:01:52. > :01:54.and to that end, she has been putting flesh on her policy platform
:01:55. > :01:57.The big news is that she's inserted some nuance
:01:58. > :02:00.She's no longer saying France must come out.
:02:01. > :02:03.But she is for change, and even accepting that she'll
:02:04. > :02:05.probably fail to win, France could take a radically
:02:06. > :02:09.Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban reports.
:02:10. > :02:15.For many French, the Front National, the National Front, and its former
:02:16. > :02:18.leader Jean Marie Le Pen, had become like the baddies in a graphic
:02:19. > :02:22.novel, there to menace, but never to win.
:02:23. > :02:30.But his daughter has sought to rebrand the party, shed its racist
:02:31. > :02:38.I think she has done extremely well in detoxifying,
:02:39. > :02:43.that's the word she uses, the Front National brand and saying,
:02:44. > :02:49."I'm not an extremist, I do not make nasty
:02:50. > :02:51.jokes about the Holocaust and parties like mine
:02:52. > :02:57."Look at Ukip, look at Brexit, look at Trump in America".
:02:58. > :03:00."It is perfectly normal to vote for me,
:03:01. > :03:05.I'm just a politician, except that I'm different from the others".
:03:06. > :03:09.Le Pen's platform unveiled during recent days has a take
:03:10. > :03:13.back control feel to it, restoring sovereignty of
:03:14. > :03:16.the economy, she says, being more protectionist of the territory of
:03:17. > :03:23.France itself, imposing permanent border controls and of monetary
:03:24. > :03:26.policy, reintroducing the franc, albeit pegged to wider European
:03:27. > :03:30.currencies in a kind of new exchange rate mechanism, a more moderate
:03:31. > :03:32.message than some of her recent pronouncements
:03:33. > :03:41.She's not going for hard Frexit, she's trying to explain
:03:42. > :03:44.to the electorate that she wants to renegotiate things with Europe.
:03:45. > :03:50.She is doing this probably because she wants to reach
:03:51. > :03:56.beyond her traditional electoral base.
:03:57. > :03:59.If Marine Le Pen is to win, she has got to leap a whole series
:04:00. > :04:04.of hurdles, from appealing to voters who usually stay at home to racing
:04:05. > :04:06.through a crowded presidential field, and indeed,
:04:07. > :04:13.With the party short of cash, it may seek another loan from
:04:14. > :04:20.Russia, a country the party leader has been reluctant to criticise.
:04:21. > :04:22.The Front National has a storeyed past of aligning themselves
:04:23. > :04:29.Marine Le Pen's stepmother and her father got money
:04:30. > :04:37.They campaigned heavily for Saddam Hussein, saying that he was
:04:38. > :04:40.misunderstood, a bit like Bashar al-Assad today,
:04:41. > :04:43.and a beacon of secularism in the Middle East.
:04:44. > :04:49.And strangely enough, it has not harmed her.
:04:50. > :04:58.Received political opinion suggests she may
:04:59. > :05:01.get to the last two for a second-round vote, as indeed her
:05:02. > :05:06.But it will be very hard for her to clinch victory.
:05:07. > :05:09.But then again, that's received opinion, based on polls,
:05:10. > :05:11.and one French paper announced yesterday that it
:05:12. > :05:18.TRANSLATION: We realise that pollsters did not predict several
:05:19. > :05:22.big events - Brexit in Great Britain, Trump in the US.
:05:23. > :05:25.In France, we have primaries on the right and
:05:26. > :05:28.we didn't expect Nicolas Sarkozy to be eliminated in the first round.
:05:29. > :05:31.We all thought Alain Juppe would win.
:05:32. > :05:33.That's what the polls were telling us.
:05:34. > :05:35.But it was Francois Fillon who won, and nobody
:05:36. > :05:40.Francois Fillon, now leading the polls, is a man of
:05:41. > :05:47.He may well cast doubt on Marine Le Pen's values,
:05:48. > :05:49.or even suggest she's not so different from her father.
:05:50. > :06:00.She is suddenly looking not as the newcomer,
:06:01. > :06:04.as she would hope, but somebody who has tried again and again to be
:06:05. > :06:06.elected, while Francois Fillon was prime minister for five years
:06:07. > :06:08.and is now the favourite, the newcomer.
:06:09. > :06:10.She didn't expect him to win the primary.
:06:11. > :06:13.So this is a new battle for her and it is dangerous
:06:14. > :06:22.Mobilising people against an establishment candidate
:06:23. > :06:25.will still provide Le Pen with plenty of options, and the success
:06:26. > :06:28.of her messages on border controls and leaving the single currency may
:06:29. > :06:36.yet produce in France a huge challenge to the European project.
:06:37. > :06:39.Joining me now are Benedicte Paviot, the UK correspondent for France 24,
:06:40. > :06:41.and Philippe Marliere, Professor of French and European Politics
:06:42. > :06:45.at University College, London.
:06:46. > :06:53.I want to start by getting you to reflect on the Front National, they
:06:54. > :07:00.seem to have softened enormously. Should we think of them as the
:07:01. > :07:06.Fascist party or the French Ukip? It is more the French Ukip but it is a
:07:07. > :07:12.different animal to Ukip. There is very much the question of identity,
:07:13. > :07:17.this is across the French spectrum, people are concerned about security
:07:18. > :07:24.and France is still under a state of emergency, about immigration. And
:07:25. > :07:30.that is they are concerned, very high unemployment, France has almost
:07:31. > :07:35.10%. The economy is not doing very well, so it is difficult and people
:07:36. > :07:42.are finding it very hard to get by. But I wouldn't compare and Nigel
:07:43. > :07:47.Farage doesn't like her thinking they are in the same boat. He has
:07:48. > :07:54.never said a word against, he said, but he has criticised her father.
:07:55. > :07:59.Would you call them a fascist party? She is very astute in her language,
:08:00. > :08:04.so she is able to appeal to people who would be described as probably
:08:05. > :08:10.fascist but she is careful, unlike her father, not to generally say
:08:11. > :08:15.things, although she has been in trouble herself, whether it is about
:08:16. > :08:23.Muslims and also about the Holocaust. Do you think of them as
:08:24. > :08:31.the Fascist party? Or Ukip? It is hard-core them a fascist party today
:08:32. > :08:34.-- it is hard to call them a fascist party today, although their roots
:08:35. > :08:38.are in the far right, and they are clearly an extreme far right party,
:08:39. > :08:45.but they have softened the image, the brand, because of Le Pen
:08:46. > :08:48.herself, the message is soft, but when you look at the core policies
:08:49. > :08:54.it is about immigration and law and order. Identity politics. It is
:08:55. > :09:01.still about Islam posing a major threat to French identity. The have
:09:02. > :09:07.-- these have been very important in other elections, like in America. If
:09:08. > :09:10.many French voters think they are a fascist party, they will think they
:09:11. > :09:15.will never vote for them, but if you look at the policies you have
:09:16. > :09:21.described, populist economics, sovereignty, national control, you
:09:22. > :09:26.could see people voting for that, couldn't you? It would appeal to the
:09:27. > :09:30.mainstream? It is a difficult question, opinion polls have said
:09:31. > :09:33.for the majority of people the Front National remains a party which is a
:09:34. > :09:39.threat to French democracy. That is very clear. It is not a normal party
:09:40. > :09:45.in that respect, but if you want to see it as a fascist party along the
:09:46. > :09:51.lines of the Nazis in Germany or Mussolini, there are differences,
:09:52. > :09:58.clearly. Let's talk about the Front National, being parked between Ukip
:09:59. > :10:01.and more extreme, but Francois Fillon, he is not a normal French
:10:02. > :10:07.candidate, he's quite right wing. Thatcherite. Which the French don't
:10:08. > :10:15.like. Very socially conservative. Yes. Francois Fillon, I would not
:10:16. > :10:19.agree with your reporter, he's a known quantity, he would like to
:10:20. > :10:25.present himself as a newcomer, but the French people know him very
:10:26. > :10:28.well. He was a Prime Minister under Nicolas Sarkozy and we should point
:10:29. > :10:35.out that it is quite a surprise that we are sitting here at the end of
:10:36. > :10:42.November... He was not seen at all by the polls as the favourite to be
:10:43. > :10:47.the Conservative candidate, but he is the official candidate in what
:10:48. > :10:51.was a very successful first time exercise for the French
:10:52. > :10:57.Conservatives to do these primaries, that is the... Be socialists did
:10:58. > :11:01.that at the last election, they will go through their second exercise. It
:11:02. > :11:06.was very successful because they got millions of people do come out and
:11:07. > :11:11.vote and we ended up, not with another former Conservative Prime
:11:12. > :11:16.Minister, we got Francois Fillon, who has a track record, and is a
:11:17. > :11:21.known quantity. He has parked his tanks very firmly on the right,
:11:22. > :11:26.which is a slight problem for Marine Le Pen. She had geared herself up to
:11:27. > :11:32.be dealing with Alain Juppe. He's not doing well in the polls, though.
:11:33. > :11:36.Ever since his victory, which was very good, and the expulsion in
:11:37. > :11:45.third place of the former President Nicholas Sarkozy, he has been
:11:46. > :11:48.completely silent and 53% of the French people feel he has been to
:11:49. > :11:52.silent and he has disappeared, you can't afford to do that. And that he
:11:53. > :11:58.should also change some of its policies. What is going on in
:11:59. > :12:01.France? We have not spoken about the Socialists, no one seems to be
:12:02. > :12:11.bothered by them in this election. Is it cultural or economic question
:12:12. > :12:15.mark it is very simple, the Francois Hollande presidency has been a
:12:16. > :12:20.fiasco, really, there's a strong rejection of what Francois Hollande
:12:21. > :12:26.and the government have achieved, so a very unpopular government. That is
:12:27. > :12:32.why one of the candidates, Manuel Valls, will have a mountain to
:12:33. > :12:40.climb. If he's nominated by his own party. The second reason, the left
:12:41. > :12:46.is not united. There will be many many candidates, 5-6 candidates on
:12:47. > :12:50.the left. Very briefly. What do you think the EU should be thinking
:12:51. > :12:59.about this election? Should they be terrified of both candidates? Marine
:13:00. > :13:07.Le Pen is a bit softer towards the EU than she was six months ago. If
:13:08. > :13:11.Francois Fillon wins or a socialist wins, any candidate will be rather
:13:12. > :13:19.lukewarm regarding Europe but they will be the same continuation of the
:13:20. > :13:23.same policy as at the moment. If Le Pen wins it is a totally different
:13:24. > :13:29.situation. She would like a referendum about Frexit. That would
:13:30. > :13:35.be a different proposition, but she has to win, and she's not there yet,
:13:36. > :13:37.in my opinion. There is one other person to watch out for, the
:13:38. > :13:44.independent candidate. The wild card. Thanks for joining us.
:13:45. > :13:47.Britain has a new ambassador to the EU - didn't take long.
:13:48. > :13:54.I'm joined by our political editor Nick Watt.
:13:55. > :14:02.What do we know about Tim Barrow? He's an immensely respected figure
:14:03. > :14:06.and his nickname in the Foreign Office is deep state, which means he
:14:07. > :14:11.has the answers to everything. He had a stint in Moscow and a couple
:14:12. > :14:19.in Brussels. Boris Johnson is delighted. He believes the UK
:14:20. > :14:25.mission to the EU needs to be headed by someone who speaks the language
:14:26. > :14:27.in Europe. He was one of the diplomatic high-flyers who takes the
:14:28. > :14:35.form or notes of the European Council some years ago. They also
:14:36. > :14:42.believe because Tim Barrow has been the political director at the
:14:43. > :14:45.Foreign Office, he is June to the politics and he also has something
:14:46. > :14:50.of a sense of humour and is aware of the intricacies of the Brexit
:14:51. > :14:53.debate. This became apparent in a recent appearance before the foreign
:14:54. > :14:56.affairs select committee when his boss Alan Duncan inadvertently set
:14:57. > :15:01.him up as one of those dreaded experts. This is the exchange. I'm
:15:02. > :15:15.not perhaps as deeply immersed in the
:15:16. > :15:23.thinking, but maybe I can bat that to Tim Barrow, who has been living
:15:24. > :15:25.with this... I'm not an expert. Michael Gove might approve, but not
:15:26. > :15:36.me. Where did disappointment come from?
:15:37. > :15:41.It has been quite quick. Is it a solution, or does it create another
:15:42. > :15:46.problem inside the Foreign Office? Tim Barrow was only approached for
:15:47. > :15:50.this job in the last 36 hours after Sir Ivan Rogers stood down, and the
:15:51. > :15:52.process a successor was led by Sir Jeremy Heywood, the Cabinet
:15:53. > :15:57.Secretary scotching rumours that a political Brexiteer would be put in.
:15:58. > :16:01.Sir Jeremy has ensured that at one level, nothing changes. A Whitehall
:16:02. > :16:06.life will run the British mission to the EU. But at another level,
:16:07. > :16:14.everything changes. He is a clean slate. Sir Ivan Rogers carried a lot
:16:15. > :16:16.of baggage because he was associated with David Cameron's negotiations.
:16:17. > :16:22.Interestingly, Tim Barrow has achieved a first. He has united
:16:23. > :16:23.Remainers and almost all Leavers. One dissenting voice is Nigel
:16:24. > :16:26.Farage. In the film I, Daniel Blake,
:16:27. > :16:29.you see the main characters Daniel Blake and his friend Kate
:16:30. > :16:31.lose their benefits after being Sanctioning is a punishment for not
:16:32. > :16:35.looking for work hard enough or turning up on time
:16:36. > :16:37.for appointments or whatever. Now, Daniel Blake's story
:16:38. > :16:39.is fiction, but those who work in food banks
:16:40. > :16:41.say that sanctioning does force
:16:42. > :16:42.people into charity. We're going to debate sanctioning
:16:43. > :16:45.shortly with Ken Loach, who made But first, we go to the town
:16:46. > :16:50.of Accrington to meet some people Filmmaker Nick Blakemore has
:16:51. > :16:54.returned to Maundy Grange, a charity relief centre he visited
:16:55. > :17:11.in 2014, which tries to help them. I've had a bit of a bad
:17:12. > :17:16.situation with a landlord. Got in rent arrears with
:17:17. > :17:21.the landlord and he's just started At the moment, he's struggling
:17:22. > :17:36.hard for furniture. Here, we try to provide an immediate
:17:37. > :17:39.response to poverty and need Need can be defined as not having
:17:40. > :17:43.enough to eat or suffering from mental ill-health or needing
:17:44. > :17:46.help with a form. It's difficult to be optimistic
:17:47. > :17:58.at the moment because we've seen three years of things getting
:17:59. > :18:01.gradually worse and I think there are things which we weren't used to,
:18:02. > :18:06.like benefits sanctions and people being left to be destitute,
:18:07. > :18:08.which are now more commonplace. And that's a worry, and that doesn't
:18:09. > :18:14.seem to be getting better. I can't get into the house
:18:15. > :18:20.to get my stuff, so while I'm fighting to get my stuff,
:18:21. > :18:23.I've got nothing to live on, If I can get hold of
:18:24. > :18:29.a bed or something. I've got no debts and I don't
:18:30. > :18:54.owe anybody any money. When he lost his job four years ago,
:18:55. > :19:03.he says he gave up on the system I've worked all my life and now
:19:04. > :19:13.they expect me to do I do volunteer work
:19:14. > :19:23.five days a week. There should be heads
:19:24. > :19:30.rolling for that one. When you say you worked
:19:31. > :19:33.all your life, what were you doing? My first job, I worked in the mill
:19:34. > :19:36.for six years and then in a foundry for a couple of years,
:19:37. > :19:39.and then in another foundry When I was here last,
:19:40. > :19:44.I met John Crabtree. The sanctions are basically
:19:45. > :19:50.about saying you're not making enough of an effort
:19:51. > :19:52.to look for work. I turned around and said to them,
:19:53. > :19:59."Look, I'm 61 now, there's no jobs So how can you sit there, young
:20:00. > :20:09.person, 25, and tell me about work? You haven't even had
:20:10. > :20:12.the experience I've had". I tracked John down to his
:20:13. > :20:28.new place in Accrington. he says, because he did not fill
:20:29. > :20:35.in a form correctly. This is where I've been
:20:36. > :20:59.for about three year. Last time I spoke to you, you'd been
:21:00. > :21:06.sanctioned and you said you'd I spoke to you the other day
:21:07. > :21:16.and you said you'd been in prison? I got caught, obviously,
:21:17. > :21:32.so I got 20 months. The plug was in, it ran over,
:21:33. > :22:00.and that's what it did. Well, it's better than the place
:22:01. > :22:06.you were in before. Can I just ask you,
:22:07. > :22:14.when you think back, Yeah, I worked from
:22:15. > :22:20.the age of 15, 16. Things should be easy now,
:22:21. > :22:29.not worse, but anyway, Jonno, are
:22:30. > :22:49.these your supplies? Chocolate's my favourite
:22:50. > :22:57.drug, then weed. Sometimes I wake up
:22:58. > :23:03.and think, oh, shit. Sometimes I have a nice
:23:04. > :23:10.dream and I think, ahhh. When you find a place to sleep
:23:11. > :23:16.at night, what do you look for? It's got a bit of light,
:23:17. > :23:26.that's quite nice. As long as you have a couple
:23:27. > :23:29.of sleeping bags, something It's a lot better than,
:23:30. > :23:33.say, sleeping in a Tesco You get over here
:23:34. > :23:39.and out of the way. You know you have to get
:23:40. > :23:42.up in the morning by You find a place that's
:23:43. > :23:48.sheltered like this. Back in 2014, Zack was
:23:49. > :24:07.struggling to make ends meet. Some jobs, they're only taking
:24:08. > :24:27.on certain qualified people. What happened after you
:24:28. > :24:48.were sanctioned, then? They basically messed around
:24:49. > :24:50.with my housing benefit and it still carried on until not
:24:51. > :25:00.so long ago. They got me over ?1,000
:25:01. > :25:06.in debt with my landlady. Messing with my jobseekers'
:25:07. > :25:08.and all that lot. That's what made me want
:25:09. > :25:17.to get a job, really. So obviously, I don't
:25:18. > :25:23.have to depend on them. All we have is emergency
:25:24. > :25:30.accommodation, which is literally It's easy to agree with
:25:31. > :25:36.the principle that people But what worries us is the number
:25:37. > :25:44.of people who can't work who are being penalised for not
:25:45. > :25:47.being able to work. The way things are going,
:25:48. > :25:50.I think there's a big gap in people's awareness
:25:51. > :25:53.of what's going on. Maybe some people feel we're moving
:25:54. > :25:56.out of recession and things are getting a bit better and maybe
:25:57. > :26:01.there's a lack of willingness to look at people who don't have
:26:02. > :26:05.that feeling that things are getting better, and for whom things
:26:06. > :26:12.are getting considerably worse. I use a lot of food from the skips,
:26:13. > :26:28.I've got to admit. I find a lot of chocolate biscuits
:26:29. > :26:31.sometimes, a lot of cake. The soup kitchens, things like that,
:26:32. > :27:02.there's not enough to cope So when you are hungry at tea
:27:03. > :27:09.time, you do the skips. Can you explain how
:27:10. > :27:11.often you go hungry? Because I'm homeless,
:27:12. > :27:22.I'm on the streets at the moment. We did ask the Department for Work
:27:23. > :27:48.and Pension for an interview, but they weren't able
:27:49. > :27:49.to offer anyone. They did say, however,
:27:50. > :27:51.that sanctions are only I'm joined in the studio
:27:52. > :27:56.by Matthew Oakley, who was commissioned
:27:57. > :27:58.by the government to write an independent review
:27:59. > :28:00.into the impact of sanctions And in Bristol we have
:28:01. > :28:05.director Ken Loach, whose award winning film I,
:28:06. > :28:07.Daniel Blake told the story of people struggling
:28:08. > :28:22.with the bureaucracy Matthew, I would like to start with
:28:23. > :28:26.you for some facts. You did a review and you found it was basically
:28:27. > :28:32.working, is that right of the sanction system? Essentially so. We
:28:33. > :28:35.need to take on board the wider context, that this is a system of
:28:36. > :28:38.sanctions that only applies to a small number of people. The majority
:28:39. > :28:46.of people on benefits are not sanctioned. So the people you see in
:28:47. > :28:50.that film are at the hardest end of what are talking about. Secondly,
:28:51. > :28:53.there is a huge amount of international evidence that shows
:28:54. > :28:58.that conditionality, requirements placed on people who are on
:28:59. > :29:01.benefits, backed up by financial sanctions, penalties for not doing
:29:02. > :29:04.what they should be in terms of looking for work, is effective in
:29:05. > :29:08.getting people back to work more quickly. Thirdly, this is a system
:29:09. > :29:11.that is supported by both the majority of the public, but also
:29:12. > :29:15.benefit claimants themselves. That is one of the surprising things from
:29:16. > :29:18.my review. We spoke to a lot of benefit claimants and charities who
:29:19. > :29:22.support them and even people who have been sanctioned, and they
:29:23. > :29:23.supported the principle. What is your reaction as you watch that
:29:24. > :29:43.film? Do you think those people should
:29:44. > :29:46.have been sanction, or do you think they are just, if you like, the cost
:29:47. > :29:48.of a sanctioning system, that you will have some people who shouldn't
:29:49. > :29:50.be sanctioned who are sanctioned? It looked like someone find it quite
:29:51. > :29:55.difficult to get a job. Absolutely. What my review said was that in
:29:56. > :29:59.certain situations where people are obviously vulnerable, we are talking
:30:00. > :30:02.homelessness here, that should act as a signal for people to step in
:30:03. > :30:07.and provide more support for those people so they can get themselves
:30:08. > :30:12.out of that situation. Did you see I, Daniel Blake, the movie? I have
:30:13. > :30:15.not seen it. Ken Loach, did you recognise the finding that some
:30:16. > :30:18.conditionality in a system that is, you have got some responsibility is
:30:19. > :30:26.and you are punished if you don't meet them, do you accept any of that
:30:27. > :30:30.in the benefit system? Well, what's clear is that sanctions are a cruel
:30:31. > :30:40.and vindictive way of treating vulnerable people. People are to
:30:41. > :30:44.fail. The system is there to trap them. When they go to a Jobcentre,
:30:45. > :30:49.they are not shown the jobs that are available. The job coaches aren't
:30:50. > :30:53.allowed to show them what jobs are available, and people are inferior.
:30:54. > :30:57.And a lot of people are sanctioned because of the work capability
:30:58. > :31:00.assessment -- people are in fear. We heard a story of a man who had a
:31:01. > :31:04.heart attack in the course of the assessment. He had to go to hospital
:31:05. > :31:08.and was sanctioned because he couldn't complete the assessment.
:31:09. > :31:13.There are absurd stories of people being sanctioned for being a few
:31:14. > :31:16.moments late. And of course, we know Jobcentre staff, I don't know if
:31:17. > :31:22.Matthew Oakley got this in his report, but Jobcentre staff are
:31:23. > :31:24.given targets. They call them expectations, and if they don't
:31:25. > :31:31.sanction a certain number of people per week, they get into trouble.
:31:32. > :31:38.Let me put this specifically to Matthew. They have to work in a
:31:39. > :31:42.terrible atmosphere. Is that correct, they have do sanction a
:31:43. > :31:47.certain amount of people? I'm telling you it is correct. Wouldn't
:31:48. > :31:55.you be more concerned if we did not know how many people at a job centre
:31:56. > :32:00.were sanctioned? That we didn't know they were sanctioning, say, 30% of
:32:01. > :32:02.people, is it not right, in terms of standard management practice, we
:32:03. > :32:09.understand what proportion of people on benefits each office is
:32:10. > :32:14.sanctioning. Are they forced, they told you should be sanctioning this
:32:15. > :32:21.number? That is not my experience, we have spoken to Jobcentre staff,
:32:22. > :32:26.in the review, what we found is a large proportion of the staff
:32:27. > :32:33.actually supported the system. Ken Loach, I'm interested, you say there
:32:34. > :32:39.is no conditionality at all, or there are some kind of sanctions,
:32:40. > :32:46.and in a way, you said there should be no sanctions at all. Nobody
:32:47. > :32:53.supports cheating. Nobody supports tax cheat, but they don't seem to
:32:54. > :32:55.get the same coverage. Yes, of course, people should not cheat, and
:32:56. > :33:00.there should be a way of dealing with that, but when you stop people
:33:01. > :33:05.odds money, you force them into the dire poverty, they have nothing --
:33:06. > :33:09.when you stop people's money. They are driven to the streets and food
:33:10. > :33:17.banks, and last year out of one group of food banks, 1,100,000 food
:33:18. > :33:22.bags were given. Half a million of those went to families with
:33:23. > :33:25.children, children would not eat unless people put tins into a
:33:26. > :33:31.charity bag. Don't you think that is disgusting? We accept that as part
:33:32. > :33:37.of our society now. That is the system which Matthew Oakley appears
:33:38. > :33:41.to be defending. What I would say, this is a system which the vast
:33:42. > :33:47.majority of the public actually support, the claimants... You can't
:33:48. > :33:52.hide behind that, this is an appalling system. That is not to say
:33:53. > :33:57.that there are people who need more help. We have a binary system, you
:33:58. > :34:03.are either capable of work or you're not. But there are people who are on
:34:04. > :34:07.the margins and they will find working quite difficult, they have
:34:08. > :34:19.ragged lives or the responsibilities are a bit own a bit much. Are we
:34:20. > :34:23.applying sanctions to those people? Most people would say we do not want
:34:24. > :34:29.sanctions apply to people who are not capable of holding down a job.
:34:30. > :34:34.We need to understand what a sanction is. This is not people
:34:35. > :34:38.being sanction for not being in work, being unemployed or out of
:34:39. > :34:41.work is not because of a sanction. It is not doing what you have agreed
:34:42. > :34:48.to do for the people are agreeing to do these things. Seeking work and
:34:49. > :34:52.taking steps towards work, and maybe you are taking steps to prepare
:34:53. > :34:56.yourself for work, to take on some kind of activity which improves your
:34:57. > :34:58.health condition. This isn't people being sanction for not being at
:34:59. > :35:04.work, this is not taking the steps to what they have agreed. Ken Loach,
:35:05. > :35:07.the last word. People are sanctioned when they are in work, woman were
:35:08. > :35:13.sanctioned for going on leave when she was on a zero is ours contract.
:35:14. > :35:19.-- zero hours contract. We are missing the point, this is a very
:35:20. > :35:23.cruel way to deal with the most vulnerable people and if all the
:35:24. > :35:27.people who fulfilled every thing of what they are required, they would
:35:28. > :35:31.still be 1.6 million people unemployed and there would still be
:35:32. > :35:34.5 million people underemployed, the system creates the poverty and we
:35:35. > :35:39.are punishing the poorest and blaming them for their poverty,
:35:40. > :35:41.blaming the unemployed for the unemployment, and that is really
:35:42. > :35:50.false and Matthew should accept that. Ken Loach, Matthew, thanks for
:35:51. > :35:58.joining us. We now move to the other end of the social spectrum.
:35:59. > :35:59.The billionaire bosses of Silicon Valley.
:36:00. > :36:03.They have been as taken aback as anyone by the new and obvious
:36:04. > :36:06.Full, as they are, of the potential of technology to solve anything,
:36:07. > :36:09.suddenly it seems that real people in their midst, have problems that
:36:10. > :36:15.Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook made a new year Facebook
:36:16. > :36:18.post with a hint of guilt at how disconnected he has become
:36:19. > :36:24.He's challenged himself to visit 30 US states this year,
:36:25. > :36:27.and to meet the people in them, having, he says, enjoyed
:36:28. > :36:29.travelling around the cities of the world in recent years.
:36:30. > :36:32.It's a fascinating post, it not only offers a good idea
:36:33. > :36:34.for a new year's resolution for upstanding members
:36:35. > :36:37.But it also tells us something about the tech entrepreneur class -
:36:38. > :36:40.a kind of new royalty, with a sense of the duty
:36:41. > :36:47.Or does it tell us something about the challenge of trying to run
:36:48. > :36:49.a business for everyone, in a society that's split.
:36:50. > :36:53.Here's our technology editor David Grossman.
:36:54. > :36:58.The New Year is a time to reflect on times past...
:36:59. > :37:01.What could possibly help a New Year hangover better than a load of world
:37:02. > :37:04.leaders popping up on your phone to give you their thoughts
:37:05. > :37:10.And, how refreshing, amongst the peace and goodwill messages,
:37:11. > :37:13.to hear the North Korean leader announce a new long-range missile
:37:14. > :37:21.But look who's also lighting the fuse on the year with a missive,
:37:22. > :38:02.In a post on Facebook, he says:
:38:03. > :38:04.In previous years, he has said something more substantive,
:38:05. > :38:07."I'm going to programme an AI for my house, I'm going
:38:08. > :38:13.This year he is like, "I have a toddler and I don't have
:38:14. > :38:15.that much bandwidth and I'm just going to go to Nebraska
:38:16. > :38:20.The fact is, tech companies like Facebook don't really
:38:21. > :38:23.They don't have too many Trump supporters working
:38:24. > :38:29.They're built of people who look the same, they act the same,
:38:30. > :38:33.Maybe they went to the same university together.
:38:34. > :38:36.And they work together to build a brilliant company,
:38:37. > :38:39.but then at some point they realise they need to start focusing
:38:40. > :38:42.on the people who didn't come from the same background as them
:38:43. > :38:45.and did not go to the same university and do not
:38:46. > :38:54.We need to start bridging our way out and experiencing people in a
:38:55. > :38:59.different context if we are going to build their products.
:39:00. > :39:02.And I think that's something I'm seeing more founders
:39:03. > :39:07.One of Donald Trump's first actions after his election was to summon
:39:08. > :39:10.the bosses of the big tech companies to Trump Tower for a meeting.
:39:11. > :39:12.Most had made no secret of their antipathy towards him
:39:13. > :39:19.But how powerful are these tech bosses
:39:20. > :39:27.I think that what Mark Zuckerberg does by being the chief
:39:28. > :39:33.executive of Facebook, which has its own population,
:39:34. > :39:36.or its user base which is larger than most countries in the world,
:39:37. > :39:41.And the messaging and the way it convenes people or convenes thought
:39:42. > :39:44.or informs people is hugely important and can be
:39:45. > :39:46.transformational for different political agendas.
:39:47. > :39:49.The Facebook algorithm, of course, has been blamed
:39:50. > :39:53.for spreading fake news stories during the US election campaign.
:39:54. > :40:01.The balance between maintaining an open platform and policing
:40:02. > :40:04.the content on that platform has never been one the tech companies
:40:05. > :40:11.They don't like the messiness of the real world.
:40:12. > :40:14.They don't like the messiness of how you deal with unemployment
:40:15. > :40:21.The hot thing in Silicon Valley right now is this thing called
:40:22. > :40:25.Everyone loves it for different reasons, because it's a bold
:40:26. > :40:28.and simple idea which can transform the world.
:40:29. > :40:32.But politics isn't really about bold and simple ideas.
:40:33. > :40:36.Politics in the real world is about campaigning and meeting
:40:37. > :40:40.people and understanding different ways of looking at the world
:40:41. > :40:42.and forging compromise and legislating, and that kind
:40:43. > :40:44.of messiness is something Silicon Valley just
:40:45. > :40:52.This is much more the sort of project they love,
:40:53. > :40:53.bringing the internet to the unconnected in
:40:54. > :40:58.Although the big tech firms are more and more powerful in our lives,
:40:59. > :41:02.they're only now learning how to use this huge influence.
:41:03. > :41:04.Clearly, they don't want to act like elected politicians,
:41:05. > :41:06.apart from, that is, sending out the odd
:41:07. > :41:15.That's all we've got time for this evening.
:41:16. > :41:20.But before we go, as you might have heard, today was the last day Dippy
:41:21. > :41:22.the Diplodocus could be seen in the Natural History Museum before
:41:23. > :41:28.I understand that things are not going smoothly.
:41:29. > :41:30.Let's go over now to the museum hall.
:41:31. > :42:35.Skies are likely to clear through the night and it will turn bitterly
:42:36. > :42:37.cold. A