0:00:00 > 0:00:01Now it's time for Newsnight with Evan Davis.
0:00:01 > 0:00:03Spot the difference - new cabinet - old cabinet.
0:00:03 > 0:00:06Yes, we struggled as well.
0:00:06 > 0:00:09A two-day reshuffle, and quite a bit of a kerfuffle.
0:00:09 > 0:00:15But it leaves government disrupted but not altogether relaunched.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18The Prime Minister has been struggling with a pretty tough
0:00:18 > 0:00:21joint, that is raising questions about her mastery of some
0:00:21 > 0:00:24pretty basic skills.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28Was it much ado about nothing?
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Or can it reset the Conservative's overall direction?
0:00:31 > 0:00:34With talks between the north and south, we'll examine the search
0:00:34 > 0:00:37for peace on the Korean peninsula.
0:00:37 > 0:00:41In the Middle East we will examine Iran's foreign policy.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44It's accused of not searching for peace.
0:00:44 > 0:00:49Iranian expansionism is extraordinarily dangerous.
0:00:49 > 0:00:53First of all, they have Shia groups throughout the region they can rely
0:00:53 > 0:00:58on that they can, if you will, convert, or infiltrate.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02Also tonight, Toby Young steps down.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05Virgin West Coast says it will no longer sell the Daily Mail
0:01:05 > 0:01:08on its trains.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12It seems a culture war is raging in the UK.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16James Delingpole and Paris Lees will tell us whether it needs to be
0:01:16 > 0:01:21conducted with quite so much vitriol.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Hello.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29It's done, after two days, government has been
0:01:29 > 0:01:30reshuffled and reshaped.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33124 jobs in government, including junior ministers and whips
0:01:33 > 0:01:37and all the hangers on - and about a third of those have been
0:01:37 > 0:01:38moved or are new.
0:01:38 > 0:01:42Including moves for some names you might recognise,
0:01:42 > 0:01:44including Jo Johnson and Rory Stewart who were shunted
0:01:44 > 0:01:48from jobs in their comfort zone, to jobs elsewhere.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Two important critiques of the reshuffle are emerging though
0:01:51 > 0:01:54- the Prime Minister has said that it makes government look
0:01:54 > 0:01:57like the people it serves, but that is not quite true
0:01:57 > 0:02:01of the cabinet, which is a little more public school and a bit more
0:02:01 > 0:02:06Oxbridge than it was and has no more women in it.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09The other point, made by the Institute for Government,
0:02:09 > 0:02:10is about the disruption to business.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13In nearly every department, half or more of ministers have now
0:02:14 > 0:02:16been in their post for less than a year.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18The heart of government, which is the Cabinet Office
0:02:18 > 0:02:20will have an entirely new team.
0:02:20 > 0:02:21For what?
0:02:21 > 0:02:23Was it all worth it?
0:02:24 > 0:02:26Well, Nick Watt our political editor is here.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Let's talk about the handling today, because yesterday it came
0:02:28 > 0:02:31in for quite a bit of criticism.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34It has been a tale of two reshuffles, there is a feeling
0:02:34 > 0:02:37in the Cabinet that yesterday, which was about the Cabinet,
0:02:37 > 0:02:40was not one of the Prime Minister's most glorious moments with those
0:02:40 > 0:02:42ministers resisting her.
0:02:42 > 0:02:46I've been hearing scathing words like chaotic, the Prime Minister has
0:02:46 > 0:02:50no authority, and she can't even sack people.
0:02:50 > 0:02:51That's the Cabinet.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Today she had a much better story when she started moving
0:02:54 > 0:02:57through the junior and middle ranking levels of government
0:02:57 > 0:03:00and Downing Street is saying that the Prime Minister has created
0:03:00 > 0:03:03what they believe is one of the most diverse governments in the history
0:03:03 > 0:03:06of this country, 37 women ministers and nine ministers from black
0:03:06 > 0:03:11and minority ethnic backgrounds.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15I talked to a Cabinet minister who said look at the whips office,
0:03:15 > 0:03:19six recently elected women MPs brought into the whips office.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22They were saying it's not that long ago that there were no women
0:03:22 > 0:03:26in the whips office and it was run like a military operation,
0:03:26 > 0:03:27orders were barked.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30You can't do that in the modern world so this
0:03:30 > 0:03:31is a modern whips office.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34There were some strange moves, I mentioned Rory Stewart
0:03:34 > 0:03:44and Jo Johnson, people said wife move them from jobs that seemed
0:03:44 > 0:03:47to be jobs they were familiar with two things that
0:03:47 > 0:03:51are not experts on.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53Some people are spotting a plot on the backbenches.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56What the Prime Minister did was create a praetorian guard
0:03:56 > 0:03:59around her and then clipped the wings of anyone who might
0:03:59 > 0:04:03possibly be seen as a potential challenger.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05Dominic Raab, given this important job as housing minister,
0:04:05 > 0:04:08but that is seen by these people as a hospital pass.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12Will he ever get to grips with this issue that nobody seems to get
0:04:12 > 0:04:14to grips with?
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Rory Stewart taken out of the comfort zone of Africa
0:04:17 > 0:04:20to the Ministry of Justice, somebody who made his name
0:04:20 > 0:04:21as a governor of an Iraqi province.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25And Justine Greening, comprehensive educated Yorkshire
0:04:25 > 0:04:30woman, given an offer yesterday that she couldn't take her mind
0:04:30 > 0:04:31off she goes.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34I've really been looking at what Theresa May was trying
0:04:34 > 0:04:39to achieve in this troubled reshuffle.
0:04:42 > 0:04:49Most prime ministers are reluctant butchers.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52Margaret Thatcher lamented how in her Downing Street years she had
0:04:52 > 0:04:57been obliged to learn the craft of carving the joint.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01So, just how skilled a butcher is Theresa May?
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Well, in this rather elongated reshuffle,
0:05:04 > 0:05:06she's been struggling with a pretty tough joint,
0:05:07 > 0:05:10and that's raising questions about her mastery of some pretty
0:05:11 > 0:05:17basic prime ministerial skills.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20If prime ministers red reshuffles so much, what exactly is Theresa May
0:05:20 > 0:05:23seeking to achieve here?
0:05:23 > 0:05:27Well, the answer lies in one date, June the 8th, the Prime Minister
0:05:27 > 0:05:30is seeking to respond to the Tories' surprise electoral setback
0:05:30 > 0:05:34by shifting the dial in three ways.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36In the first place, she wants to restore her
0:05:36 > 0:05:39own political authority.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41Then she wants to show a more diverse Conservative Party
0:05:41 > 0:05:44to the country.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47And finally, she wants to respond to the concerns of voters who gave
0:05:47 > 0:05:56the Tories such a bloody nose back in June.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58The Prime Minister gave the impression yesterday
0:05:58 > 0:06:01that she was unable to carve key sections of the joint after Cabinet
0:06:01 > 0:06:05ministers challenged some of her plans.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09Tory MPs claim that the reshuffle has exposed grave weaknesses
0:06:09 > 0:06:12in her operation, though MPs now say she did stage
0:06:12 > 0:06:17a strong recovery today.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21Expectations were far too high on the run in because I always
0:06:21 > 0:06:24thought it would be a moderate reshuffle, only two or three
0:06:24 > 0:06:29jobs needed changing.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32Every reshuffle I'd ever seen hits a problem somewhere
0:06:32 > 0:06:35when administered doesn't want to go somewhere and they want to keep them
0:06:35 > 0:06:37in the Cabinet, which happened here.
0:06:37 > 0:06:38-- when a minister.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40Suella Fernandes, who has coordinated the main backbench
0:06:40 > 0:06:43Brexit group takes her first step on the ministerial ladder
0:06:43 > 0:06:47in the Brexit department.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52Other new ministers include the QC Lucy Frazer, who becomes a justice
0:06:52 > 0:06:54minister and a former entrepreneur Rishi Sunak,
0:06:54 > 0:06:58who joins the housing ministry.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01The Prime Minister invited a record number of women appointed
0:07:01 > 0:07:04to the whips office to Downing Street, and No 10 says
0:07:04 > 0:07:12Theresa May has created one of the most diverse governments ever
0:07:12 > 0:07:16with 37 women and nine ministers from minority ethnic backgrounds.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19It's probably the most diverse governments Britain has ever had,
0:07:19 > 0:07:26that's a good thing.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28But more importantly, the reshuffle is pretty much over,
0:07:29 > 0:07:31senior Cabinet level right the way through to junior ministerial roles,
0:07:32 > 0:07:34we've got some really good high-quality people.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40The Tories were shaken by the way in which voters from their mid-40s
0:07:40 > 0:07:43downwards preferred Labour in the election, with concerns over
0:07:43 > 0:07:45housing a key grievance amongst younger voters,
0:07:45 > 0:07:51there is a renewed focus on this in a newly rebranded department.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55All age groups in that election will also alarmed by the confusion
0:07:55 > 0:07:57over social care, so Jeremy Hunt takes overall control
0:07:57 > 0:08:03of that policy.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06The challenge will be to show that these changes amount to more
0:08:06 > 0:08:13than shiny new departmental nameplates.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15While the Prime Minister has been panned for tinkering
0:08:16 > 0:08:18with her Cabinet, in this reshuffle she has gone further
0:08:18 > 0:08:21than the limited changes she made in the summer.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23So, progress since her Midsummer nightmare when her first
0:08:23 > 0:08:25priority was survival.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29But this is still not Theresa May's ideal reshuffle.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32Had she done better in the general election there would have been
0:08:32 > 0:08:37changes at the most senior level of the Cabinet.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41The Prime Minister tied up the loose ends of her reshuffle this evening.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43The troubled Cabinet changes show Theresa May cannot altogether escape
0:08:43 > 0:08:46the shadow of the election but at junior levels
0:08:46 > 0:08:53there was a more decisive Prime Minister on display.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59Nick Watt with an Atkins diet metaphor as well.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02I'm joined by Kelly Tolhurst, Tory MP for Rochester in Kent
0:09:02 > 0:09:05and as of today an assistant government whip.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08One of those ones that Nick was referring to earlier.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10And in a moment I'll be speaking to Camilla Cavendish,
0:09:10 > 0:09:13director of the 10 Downing Street policy unit under David Cameron
0:09:13 > 0:09:16and to the journalist Paul Mason.
0:09:16 > 0:09:17Good evening to you all.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19Kelly, can we start with you?
0:09:19 > 0:09:22It's interesting they have put you up, the government have chosen
0:09:22 > 0:09:25to put you up to speak for the government today,
0:09:25 > 0:09:28working-class background, not one of these Oxbridge posh boys
0:09:28 > 0:09:32in the Cabinet, do you think this is a time for the party to try
0:09:32 > 0:09:35and put forward a different face?
0:09:35 > 0:09:39Well, I think, for me, I'm a conservative and always have
0:09:39 > 0:09:42been and I have become a Conservative MP, and for me
0:09:42 > 0:09:45I think the last two days, especially what has happened today,
0:09:45 > 0:09:49has shown really what the true Conservative Parliamentary party now
0:09:49 > 0:09:53is, and they do include people like myself, and it's been really
0:09:53 > 0:09:56good to be given the opportunity to go into the whips
0:09:56 > 0:09:59office this afternoon.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Theresa May explicitly said one of the objectives and achievements
0:10:02 > 0:10:04of this was to create a government that looks more
0:10:04 > 0:10:07like the country serves.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11Last count there were more than 30, 30 5% women in the country.
0:10:11 > 0:10:20Are you happy with the way that's gone?
0:10:20 > 0:10:24I think we have got record numbers for us women into government
0:10:24 > 0:10:25positions.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27Is more reflective of the people we serve.
0:10:27 > 0:10:31It's true we need to do more but today is a great step forward
0:10:31 > 0:10:33and I think with what's happened in the whips office,
0:10:33 > 0:10:36it is a real indicator to show that that's changing.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39In fairness, you don't really get to speak on any issue
0:10:39 > 0:10:41in the whips office.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44Cabinet average age, 51, it was 52, not much changed.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47In the Cabinet there is want black or ethnic minority member
0:10:47 > 0:10:48of the Cabinet.
0:10:48 > 0:10:5548% Oxbridge, 34% went to a public school.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59Does it make sense to sort of shout about how you are creating
0:10:59 > 0:11:01a government that looks like the country serves,
0:11:01 > 0:11:04if you've got 34% public school people in the Cabinet, 48% Oxbridge?
0:11:04 > 0:11:09Is that a thing to shout about?
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Well, I think we need to look at the government positions
0:11:13 > 0:11:16as a whole, and also look at the people that came in in 2015
0:11:16 > 0:11:19and have come in this year, and myself, having not been
0:11:19 > 0:11:22to university, and had the opportunities to work hard,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25and to become a member of Parliament, there are more people
0:11:25 > 0:11:29like me that came in in 2015 and I think if you look at this
0:11:29 > 0:11:32as a whole we are from a more diverse background, therefore I do
0:11:32 > 0:11:34think some of the changes are reflected.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36Is your line that this will pass through?
0:11:36 > 0:11:39That the Conservative Party, at the moment boasting around done
0:11:39 > 0:11:40about its government's representative nurse
0:11:40 > 0:11:47when it is half public school?
0:11:47 > 0:11:50The parliament to party has changed significantly in the last two years
0:11:50 > 0:11:54with the 2015 intake and 17.
0:11:54 > 0:12:00Today's appointments have made a difference and I think
0:12:00 > 0:12:06we are moving forward.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08The big mission is about rejuvenating this government,
0:12:08 > 0:12:11we know Brexit has got to be done and Theresa May wants
0:12:11 > 0:12:15to move beyond Brexit.
0:12:15 > 0:12:20In a couple of sentences, what is the big idea,
0:12:20 > 0:12:21apart from Brexit?
0:12:21 > 0:12:22What are you going to do?
0:12:22 > 0:12:24Well, the government is committed to delivering Brexit,
0:12:25 > 0:12:26it's massively important.
0:12:26 > 0:12:27Apart from Brexit?
0:12:27 > 0:12:30My constituency is still the focus but we have also said,
0:12:30 > 0:12:33and Theresa May has been clear, we cannot forget that domestic
0:12:33 > 0:12:35agenda and there are things like the NHS, the environment.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37What are you going to do?
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Well, one of the things we are doing is focusing,
0:12:40 > 0:12:44as you know, we have been speaking about the NHS and winter crisis over
0:12:44 > 0:12:46the last couple of days.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50It is something we are looking at.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Kelly, I'm so sorry, but speaking about the NHS...
0:12:54 > 0:12:57You are struggling to say what the big mission is.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59There must be some sort of...
0:12:59 > 0:13:03Has the party been told this is what our priority is?
0:13:03 > 0:13:05Reinventing capitalism and we are going to do these 100
0:13:05 > 0:13:07things, or build a powerhouse in the North?
0:13:08 > 0:13:13Saying we are going to talk about the NHS.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17It's one of the things that matter to the people of this country
0:13:17 > 0:13:20and one of the things about this Cabinet reshuffle has been
0:13:20 > 0:13:24about having the reshuffle and being very clear,
0:13:24 > 0:13:28the Prime Minister has been very clear about
0:13:28 > 0:13:29what she wants to deliver.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32It's not just Brexit, absolutely, it is still the main focus,
0:13:32 > 0:13:35but it is around working towards those things that matter
0:13:35 > 0:13:42to people domestic is.
0:13:43 > 0:13:44to people domestically.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46With the greatest respect, I've tried giving you a chance
0:13:46 > 0:13:50to say what the mission is, and the fact that you are sort
0:13:50 > 0:13:53of struggling to say what it is, or am I just being unfair?
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Well, I think maybe you're being unfair?
0:13:55 > 0:13:59We've been clear about what we want to do, there are key thing is,
0:13:59 > 0:14:03we can list them for you, we need to make sure the economy
0:14:03 > 0:14:06continues to grow, we want people to be getting opportunities to have
0:14:06 > 0:14:07better paid jobs.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09We've had the industrial strategy just recently announced.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12That is massively important for certain areas of the United Kingdom
0:14:12 > 0:14:15and the economy.
0:14:15 > 0:14:16The NHS is included in that.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19There are a number of things that we have been clear
0:14:19 > 0:14:23on and our Prime Minister has been very clear about command the last
0:14:23 > 0:14:26two days and changes that have been made will hopefully drive forward.
0:14:26 > 0:14:27Please stay there.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Let me turn to our other two guests because the big question is,
0:14:30 > 0:14:39does this reset the Conservative Party?
0:14:39 > 0:14:40No.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42I think today was better than yesterday.
0:14:42 > 0:14:44What this reflects is, we have a Prime Minister leading
0:14:44 > 0:14:46a minority government.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50She was never going to be able to do a reshuffle.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53They have to fill in the gaps in the domestic policy agenda
0:14:54 > 0:14:57and make good on the speech she made at the beginning of this
0:14:57 > 0:15:03about social justice and managing that.
0:15:03 > 0:15:09That means they have to do much more on housing.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13It would be great if they could integrate the NHS and social care.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16There are a whole series of unfinished things that need to be
0:15:16 > 0:15:19done, partly because of Brexit but partly because of drift.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21Whitehall have been virtually frozen for 18 months.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24The question about this we shuffle is, can some of these people...
0:15:24 > 0:15:27Some of the junior people are really good.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Can they unfreeze the system or is the shadow of Brexit
0:15:30 > 0:15:36going to loom over them?
0:15:36 > 0:15:38I congratulate Theresa May for appointing a diverse junior
0:15:38 > 0:15:42layer of the Cabinet.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46They will find out how little power you have as a junior minister
0:15:46 > 0:15:50but how hard it is to get things done if you are not part
0:15:50 > 0:15:53of the inner elite that runs Britain, from which the core
0:15:53 > 0:15:54of the front bench is drawn.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56The Oxbridge set of people.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59They don't just wield political power, they wheeled social power.
0:15:59 > 0:16:08The whole Toby Young episode.
0:16:08 > 0:16:18This is like the BBC.We did a survey on this programme and it was
0:16:18 > 0:16:26worse when I worked here. This was an attempt by Joe Johnson to stick
0:16:26 > 0:16:33it to student unions and have a good go at them, like Donald Trump, and
0:16:33 > 0:16:38have a go at them on the right wing agenda. That is the agenda of the
0:16:38 > 0:16:44elite Tory Party we are dealing with. Welcome to reality for all the
0:16:44 > 0:16:47black ethnic minority and women who want to bring the normal world
0:16:47 > 0:16:53into the Tory world.
0:16:53 > 0:16:58Can I just butt in on that?
0:16:58 > 0:17:00That is not the party I recognised.
0:17:00 > 0:17:07I don't recognise your sort of
0:17:07 > 0:17:09As a backbencher, I have had many opportunities
0:17:09 > 0:17:13to influence from within.
0:17:13 > 0:17:24I don't want to only talk about this. The
0:17:24 > 0:17:27handling of the reshuffle, the fact that it was perceived to be
0:17:28 > 0:17:29botched yesterday, what does it tell us
0:17:29 > 0:17:31about the Downing Street operation?
0:17:31 > 0:17:34There was a famous story about Tony Blair and a guy I have forgotten.
0:17:35 > 0:17:46Moving round the whiteboard and his name came off. He never got into the
0:17:46 > 0:17:48Cabinet because his name fell off.
0:17:48 > 0:17:49Perculiar and arbitrary.
0:17:49 > 0:17:50That said, the media management was
0:17:51 > 0:17:54a bit surprising. Theresa May as Home Secretary I always admired. She
0:17:54 > 0:18:09did not like all this presentation stuff will stop when you get into
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Number 10 you need to do the stuff properly. Unfortunately they
0:18:12 > 0:18:15oversold the idea that big beasts would be moved in this be a huge
0:18:15 > 0:18:19clear out of the new generation. She has not brought in Mercer, who is
0:18:19 > 0:18:23regarded as a future leader. It looks a bit limp.Where does Theresa
0:18:23 > 0:18:24May go from here?
0:18:24 > 0:18:26The problem she has is it is an Administration,
0:18:26 > 0:18:28you need an overarching, moral purpose.
0:18:28 > 0:18:29She cannot write the idea
0:18:30 > 0:18:33down which is what does Britain looks like after Brexit? The cabinet
0:18:33 > 0:18:42would then split, you can do more if you have a moral purpose.
0:18:42 > 0:18:43The problem is
0:18:43 > 0:18:48identifying just about struggling people, managing people, is not
0:18:48 > 0:18:54identify what you will do for them. Right now we all know you are
0:18:54 > 0:19:10absolutely right to raise the NHS, it is on everybody's minds.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12A guy who has overseen the cancellation of
0:19:12 > 0:19:14non-urgent operations was reappointed with more power because
0:19:14 > 0:19:18Theresa May did not have enough power to sack him. Insofar as people
0:19:18 > 0:19:21are seeing politics, no one is obsessed with who is a junior
0:19:21 > 0:19:24minister but they are concerned that relatives being left on trolleys and
0:19:24 > 0:19:26being made to wait in waiting rooms.
0:19:26 > 0:19:27The person was promoted.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29That was done by NHS England.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32That is the sort of human shield for the Government, isn't it?
0:19:32 > 0:19:35Because of the Tories act in 2012 Jeremy Hunt had less power
0:19:35 > 0:19:37than he should have.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41You have to integrate the NHS...
0:19:41 > 0:19:47How long have they been in power to do that?
0:19:47 > 0:19:50It is whether the budget and the money will move
0:19:50 > 0:19:54with the title.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56Would you like the idea of combining, integrating health
0:19:56 > 0:19:57and social care?
0:19:57 > 0:19:59That was in the name they gave
0:19:59 > 0:20:01Jeremy Hunt yesterday. Is it just a
0:20:01 > 0:20:08name or something substantive going on?
0:20:09 > 0:20:11It was right that change was
0:20:11 > 0:20:15made. There is a correlation between the two and the two have to work
0:20:15 > 0:20:26together. The biggest challenge we have as the NHS, as the population
0:20:26 > 0:20:29grows and the treatment gets better, the pressures on the NHS continue.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Going forward we are looking at those areas combining and the Health
0:20:32 > 0:20:36Secretary has an opportunity to make the changes where he feels he is
0:20:36 > 0:20:39needed.We really do need to leave it there. Thank you.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42It's been a busy day in Panmunjom, the so-called "peace village"
0:20:42 > 0:20:44in the demilitarised zone on the border of North
0:20:44 > 0:20:50and South Korea.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54There have been talks there today, between the two
0:20:54 > 0:20:56countries and they appear to have gone smoothly.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58Five officials on each side attended, apparently
0:20:58 > 0:21:01with a CCTV feed to the leaders of the countries.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04Now when enemies want to bury the hatchet, they often start
0:21:04 > 0:21:06with little gestures, and avoid raising the things
0:21:06 > 0:21:07that have divided them.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11So it is with the North and South, not agreeing the big stuff,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13that North will throw away its nuclear weapons.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15But agreeing that the North will take part in the
0:21:16 > 0:21:16forthcoming winter Olympics.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21There was more to it than that - but is it a real step to stability?
0:21:21 > 0:21:22Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban reports.
0:21:22 > 0:21:29Well, this is something, surely, a thaw of sorts.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33Face to face talks, a commitment from the North to send cheerleaders
0:21:33 > 0:21:36and athletes to the Winter Olympics, and a resumption of schemes
0:21:36 > 0:21:38to reunify families divided by the Korean War.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40Kim Jong-un is on a charm offensive.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43The Panmunjom talks are the only game in town right now.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46And I think the South Koreans would do well to try
0:21:46 > 0:21:48to keep them going.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52There are a lot of issues that are Peninsula issues and that the US
0:21:52 > 0:21:55should be careful not to appear to be thwarting.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58If there's a perception in South Korea that the US is
0:21:58 > 0:22:05keeping South Korea away from its northern cousins
0:22:05 > 0:22:08for the purpose of family unification and issues like that,
0:22:08 > 0:22:10I don't think that will help the US.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13With just a couple of days until the opening of the Winter
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Games in South Korea, the venues are ready
0:22:16 > 0:22:17in the world is watching.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19North Korea now says it will send delegates,
0:22:19 > 0:22:29as it did to the 2006 Olympics and World Cup.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33And for the South, this is a timely gesture that just might unlock
0:22:33 > 0:22:34the bigger issues at stake.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37I believe we can make the Pyeongchang Winter Olympics as a
0:22:37 > 0:22:40kind of turning point in the escalating tension on the Korean
0:22:40 > 0:22:42peninsula and engaging in a direct dialogue
0:22:42 > 0:22:44and exchanges with the North, and further creating
0:22:44 > 0:22:46an environment conducive to more
0:22:46 > 0:22:56serious negotiation on nuclear and ballistic missile issues.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58But lest we thought peace was about to break
0:22:58 > 0:23:00out, North Korean officials delivered another message today,
0:23:00 > 0:23:03telling southern counterparts that Kim's nuclear weapons target only
0:23:03 > 0:23:11America and not the South.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14A version of an old mantra designed to sow
0:23:14 > 0:23:16divisions between America and its Korean ally.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20I think it's a pretty typical ploy.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23You have to bear in mind the North Korean view of South
0:23:23 > 0:23:27Korea - South Koreans are great except that they are dominated by
0:23:27 > 0:23:29their puppet master, the United States, and don't stomach
0:23:29 > 0:23:31if only the puppet master were removed,
0:23:31 > 0:23:34South Korea and North Korea would have a terrific relationship.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37But if the Americans are suspicious, what about Moon Jae-in,
0:23:37 > 0:23:38South Korea's President and long an advocate
0:23:39 > 0:23:51of better relations with the North?
0:23:51 > 0:23:54The South Korean President Moon has for decades been for improved
0:23:54 > 0:23:57relations between North and South, for engagement between North
0:23:57 > 0:23:59and South, which is very much on a different
0:23:59 > 0:24:02page than President Trump and his preference for maximum
0:24:02 > 0:24:04pressure on North Korea.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07Today's North Korean initiative hasn't met with universal approval.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Even in the South, where some people demonstrated
0:24:09 > 0:24:12against improved relations.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15When the Winter Olympics are over the nuclear issue will
0:24:15 > 0:24:23remain unsolved, the Korean peninsula on the brink.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25We live in divided times.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27Anyone who peruses social media will see
0:24:27 > 0:24:30a clash of values play out daily in vicious zero sum argument,
0:24:30 > 0:24:31on any number of issues.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33Today's examples?
0:24:33 > 0:24:36One was the right wing controversialist Toby Young stepping
0:24:36 > 0:24:39back from his appointment on the board of the new English
0:24:39 > 0:24:41university regulator, the Office for Students.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Having spent a decade trying to be controversial,
0:24:43 > 0:24:45he turned out to be too controversial for
0:24:45 > 0:24:49a public appointment.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51The second story was Virgin West Coast trains,
0:24:52 > 0:24:53stopping its sales of the Daily Mail.
0:24:53 > 0:24:56"We've decided that this paper is not compatible
0:24:56 > 0:24:57with the Virgin Trains
0:24:57 > 0:25:03brand and our beliefs," the company said.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07It did also point out that it barely sells any copies anyway.
0:25:07 > 0:25:08The Mail called the decision disgraceful.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11While very different, the two stories are just today's
0:25:11 > 0:25:13examples of a culture war that is currently being fought
0:25:13 > 0:25:15on social media and beyond.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17What characterises the culture war is its preoccupation with words
0:25:17 > 0:25:28and gestures.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31Toby Young for example is on one side of it -
0:25:31 > 0:25:32a self proclaimed provocateur.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35To be frank, he probably didn't even believe half the obnoxious stuff
0:25:35 > 0:25:38he wrote, he just wanted to offend what he saw as
0:25:38 > 0:25:39mainstream opinion.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41He's the personification of the conduct of
0:25:41 > 0:25:42the culture war under way.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44At times he's been vitriolic, relishing a
0:25:44 > 0:25:46fight with those on the other side.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49If that can be said of those on the provocative right,
0:25:49 > 0:25:52is it the same on the progressive side as well?
0:25:52 > 0:25:54Over in the US, Google are being sued by
0:25:54 > 0:25:56James Damore, the coder sacked after writing
0:25:56 > 0:25:59a controversial - not very PC - memo, critiquing the company's
0:25:59 > 0:26:07diversity policy.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09He said he and others had been discriminated
0:26:09 > 0:26:10against as white males.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13Certainly he was vilified on social media for saying and thinking
0:26:13 > 0:26:18the wrong thing.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21It's seen by the right as a case of the left's intolerance.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23Every day these kinds of arguments are
0:26:23 > 0:26:26erupting, even where they don't need to.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29Like Virgin - they're not banning customers from bringing their own
0:26:29 > 0:26:33copies of the Daily Mail on to their trains, obviously,
0:26:33 > 0:26:36but justifying the decision not to sell the Mail in terms
0:26:36 > 0:26:38of politics rather than commerce ramped this up
0:26:38 > 0:26:39as another divisive issue.
0:26:39 > 0:26:41Again, on social media, the debate polarised
0:26:41 > 0:26:45around extreme positions expressed strongly.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48Each side's undoubtedly sincere in its thoughts and really
0:26:48 > 0:26:53believes the other is a threat to either decency or free speech.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56But is the virulent argument a healthy sign or a vibrant
0:26:56 > 0:26:59debate, or a sign that shared values have more or less evaporated?
0:26:59 > 0:27:00Build that wall.
0:27:00 > 0:27:01Build that wall.
0:27:01 > 0:27:18Build that wall.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20With me now are two worriers.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22Paris Lees is a broadcaster and equality campaigner.
0:27:22 > 0:27:28James Delingpole is a columnist at The Spectator.
0:27:28 > 0:27:29And writes the Breitbart.
0:27:29 > 0:27:30James, Toby Young.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33He tries to be controversial.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37He cannot be surprised people say we do not want to on a public body.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40I don't think Toby thinks, how can I be
0:27:40 > 0:27:45controversial today? He just reacts
0:27:45 > 0:27:49in the moment.
0:27:49 > 0:27:50You use twitter, we react.
0:27:50 > 0:27:56We get an instant thought and think,
0:27:56 > 0:27:58The feeling dissipates once you have got
0:27:58 > 0:28:02the words out. We do not set out to be deliberately offensive most of
0:28:02 > 0:28:06the time.Do you think he has been badly treated?We are talking about
0:28:06 > 0:28:09separate issues.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12Does Toby Young says some spicy things on twitter?
0:28:12 > 0:28:20Yes, he does. Should Toby be on the office for students board, yes he
0:28:20 > 0:28:27should. They are completely different things he has worked in
0:28:27 > 0:28:30the educational sector and is a good man for the job.
0:28:30 > 0:28:36Paris, do you see some
0:28:36 > 0:28:38value in provocateurs trying to challenge your views and those
0:28:38 > 0:28:48of your friends, who probably think quite alike on most of these issues?
0:28:48 > 0:28:51Absolutely. I have written things which people were deemed to be
0:28:51 > 0:28:55provocative in the past. The idea that Toby Young does not set out to
0:28:55 > 0:29:03do that. This man published Julie Birtles rant about transsexuals as
0:29:03 > 0:29:05bedwetters and bad wigs and dicks in chicks clothing.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08We know 45% of trans people in the UK have
0:29:08 > 0:29:12attempted suicide. Are we saying it is OK to bully people? No. I'm glad
0:29:12 > 0:29:16people are waking up to that.Can I ask you about the manners? I'm
0:29:16 > 0:29:20looking at some of your stuff or. It is not very well mannered. Would you
0:29:20 > 0:29:30agree?
0:29:30 > 0:29:34The terrible thing is that secretly in the green room before we came on
0:29:34 > 0:29:38Paris and I have been getting on like of dumb at a house on fire.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42Forget about Paris.Probably our natural mode in her life is we are
0:29:42 > 0:29:44delightful people, but sometimes maybe Twitter brings out our kind
0:29:44 > 0:29:47of edgier side.
0:29:47 > 0:29:51Do you stand by what you put on Twitter? I will take one
0:29:51 > 0:29:55example, when are we allowed to say that Brendan Cox is a total arse?
0:29:55 > 0:30:00That was December, six months after his wife was assassinated.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02He probably said something to provoke that, this
0:30:02 > 0:30:03is just my policy, I
0:30:03 > 0:30:12cannot speak for Paris. My policy is if somebody says something really,
0:30:12 > 0:30:16really stupid then I am going to call them on it.Can't you be well
0:30:16 > 0:30:19mannered? Understand where they are coming from and correct them. One
0:30:19 > 0:30:22thing that characterises all of this is people going from zero to
0:30:22 > 0:30:30shouting and angry and swearing without the steps in between.
0:30:30 > 0:30:34In the great scheme of things, how bad is calling somebody an arse?
0:30:34 > 0:30:35This is something I've been thinking about
0:30:36 > 0:30:41recently in the sense of being
0:30:41 > 0:30:42complicit in this.
0:30:42 > 0:30:49People would regard me as quite a hostile, angry
0:30:49 > 0:30:52You know, I've called people bigots before and said things that maybe
0:30:53 > 0:30:55I've regretted, and I think that actually it is going a
0:30:56 > 0:30:59bit far actually and I think people are getting really polarised and I
0:30:59 > 0:31:03think we all need to look at our role within that and how we have let
0:31:03 > 0:31:07it get this bad.The key thing, you've taken great joy today in the
0:31:07 > 0:31:11fact the Daily Mail isn't on Virgin Trains.It's fantastic.You are sort
0:31:11 > 0:31:15of cheering and clapping. Have you ever tried to reach out to any of
0:31:15 > 0:31:18the readers, it's one of the most widely read papers in the UK, to
0:31:18 > 0:31:22save let me understand where you are coming from as well as you
0:31:22 > 0:31:24understand where I'm coming from?
0:31:24 > 0:31:27I have co-founded all about trans when we take young trans people
0:31:27 > 0:31:30to meet people in the media, often times people that produce
0:31:30 > 0:31:31shows like this.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33That's you trying to get them to understand you,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36I've asked whether you have tried to understand them.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39Of course, when we come to meet them we are trying to see
0:31:39 > 0:31:42what their level of understanding is.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44But what about your understanding of them?
0:31:44 > 0:31:48Of course we are trying to understand where they are coming
0:31:48 > 0:31:51from and trying to further the conversation and realise
0:31:51 > 0:31:52what their awareness is.
0:31:52 > 0:31:54Let me put the same question to you, James.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57Do you ever seriously try and engage with anyone who thinks
0:31:57 > 0:32:00differently to you?
0:32:00 > 0:32:02We need to differentiate between on a personal level,
0:32:02 > 0:32:07should we all get along, you know, when we meet somebody
0:32:07 > 0:32:09at Glastonbury, having a joint with them, yeah,
0:32:09 > 0:32:17peace and love, man.
0:32:17 > 0:32:21But it's very, very silly to imagine that if only we all agreed and got
0:32:21 > 0:32:24along somewhere in the squishy middle the world would be
0:32:24 > 0:32:24a better place.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27There are certain issues in the world where there
0:32:27 > 0:32:28are very different views.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31On the economy, for example, on the size of government,
0:32:31 > 0:32:32on what to do about immigration.
0:32:32 > 0:32:36You are never going to get this neutral point in the middle
0:32:36 > 0:32:37where the rightness and truth is.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40I'm sorry, we have to leave it, you've had a constructive debate.
0:32:40 > 0:32:42We overran on the first discussion.
0:32:42 > 0:32:45Thank you, both.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48This could be a decisive year for Iran.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51It started with protests that spread across the country -
0:32:51 > 0:32:53and although the authorities say they are waning,
0:32:53 > 0:32:56they have taken some extreme steps to try and douse down the flames
0:32:56 > 0:32:59of discontent - blocking access to the messaging app,
0:32:59 > 0:33:02Telegram and making thousands of arrests.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05Now, one trigger for those protests was a leaked government budget
0:33:05 > 0:33:08which cuts subsidies and hikes up fuel prices,
0:33:09 > 0:33:11while significantly increasing military spending.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14Iran is ramping up financial support to proxies across the region,
0:33:14 > 0:33:17which has fuelled the anger of some Iranians concerned about the state
0:33:17 > 0:33:20of their own economy - and fuelled anxieties across much
0:33:20 > 0:33:21of the world.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24BBC Persian's Jiyar Gol now investigates.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32In towns and cities across Iran, poverty, unemployment and corruption
0:33:33 > 0:33:35has drawn tens of thousands to the streets to protest
0:33:35 > 0:33:40against the Islamic regime.
0:33:40 > 0:33:45These are not the only reasons for the protests.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48There is also disquiet about the billions spent
0:33:48 > 0:33:51on Iran's foreign adventurism.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54"No to interference in Lebanon," they are chancing.
0:33:54 > 0:33:55"No to Gaza."
0:33:55 > 0:33:57-- chanting.
0:33:57 > 0:34:02"Leave Syria." "Think of us."
0:34:02 > 0:34:04The supreme leader lives like a god.
0:34:04 > 0:34:11We, the people, live like beggars.
0:34:11 > 0:34:15Over the past three decades, Iran has spent billions of dollars
0:34:15 > 0:34:20in an attempt to increase its influence in the region.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23Tehran now controls a route all the way to the Mediterranean
0:34:23 > 0:34:27via Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30And Iran is involved in a devastating proxy war
0:34:30 > 0:34:33with Saudi Arabia in Yemen.
0:34:33 > 0:34:37The Iranian expansionism is extraordinarily dangerous.
0:34:37 > 0:34:41First of all, they have Shia groups throughout the region they can rely
0:34:41 > 0:34:45on, that they can, if you will, convert or infiltrate.
0:34:45 > 0:34:50And the man responsible for Iran's military operations
0:34:50 > 0:34:52in the Middle East is General Qasem Soleimani,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55the commander of the elite Qods Force, a unit of
0:34:55 > 0:34:57Iran's Revolutionary Guard, which operates on foreign soil,
0:34:57 > 0:35:04organising training and funding militia groups.
0:35:04 > 0:35:08A man feared by many and labelled as a supporter of terrorism
0:35:09 > 0:35:17by the US, General Solemani, who once operated in the shadows,
0:35:17 > 0:35:20is now one of the most powerful commanders in the region.
0:35:20 > 0:35:21He played Al-Qaeda.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24He was the man in charge all the way through.
0:35:24 > 0:35:26He was always one step ahead of them.
0:35:26 > 0:35:30He used them.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33They helped him, in his regional designs on where he wanted to go
0:35:33 > 0:35:35with the Qods Force and Iran.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38To understand the power and influence of General Solemani
0:35:38 > 0:35:44and the Qods Force, you have to go to the Iran/Iraq border.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46In 2001, when the US attacked Afghanistan,
0:35:46 > 0:35:48many Al-Qaeda members came to this mountainous area
0:35:48 > 0:35:54to establish a foothold.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57They set up bases but, two years later, they were bombed
0:35:57 > 0:36:00by the US.
0:36:04 > 0:36:08This man is one of the prominent members of the local Sufi Order,
0:36:08 > 0:36:12a peaceful branch of Islam.
0:36:12 > 0:36:16He claims Iran assisted this Sunni extremists He claims Iran assisted
0:36:16 > 0:36:20the Sunni extremists who survived the bombings.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41But, why would a Sunni extremist group like Al-Qaeda,
0:36:41 > 0:36:50an arch enemy of Shia Iran, cooperate with Qasem Soleimani?
0:36:51 > 0:36:55Cathy Scott-Clark has interviewed former Al-Qaeda members,
0:36:55 > 0:36:58who lived Iran, about their dealings with Qods Force.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00Iran was an enemy of America.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02Iran was nearby.
0:37:02 > 0:37:05The people who negotiated from the Al-Qaeda side believed that
0:37:05 > 0:37:09Iran, the Qods Force, saw this as an opportunity,
0:37:09 > 0:37:12a) to know where the Al-Qaeda members were.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15If you know where they are, and you are controlling them,
0:37:16 > 0:37:19then you can use them.
0:37:19 > 0:37:23CIA documents declassified in November which were recovered
0:37:23 > 0:37:26from Osama Bin Laden's compound in Pakistan shed a new light on how
0:37:26 > 0:37:31Iran helped Al-Qaeda against the US in Iraq.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34Some of those documents suggest Iran has had a pragmatic
0:37:34 > 0:37:35relationship with Al-Qaeda.
0:37:35 > 0:37:37The documents suggest Iran and Al-Qaeda had been helping each
0:37:37 > 0:37:47other in Syria and Iraq.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51In 2011, when President Obama pulled out from Iraq,
0:37:52 > 0:37:55I was in Baghdad.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58The next day, the picture of Iran's supreme leader was posted
0:37:58 > 0:38:02in Baghdad's main square.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04Most Shia militias were more loyal to Qasem Soleimani
0:38:04 > 0:38:16than the Iraqi government.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19Vali Nasr is an academic and former foreign policy adviser
0:38:19 > 0:38:21to President Obama's Administration on Iran.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24Part of why Iran has been so successful in the region
0:38:24 > 0:38:27is because they've played this game of manoeuvring between different
0:38:27 > 0:38:29factions, relying on the one that is most naturally
0:38:29 > 0:38:32their constituency but yet build relations with the other side,
0:38:32 > 0:38:34play them against one another.
0:38:34 > 0:38:39In October, Qasem Soleimani's father passed away.
0:38:39 > 0:38:44We examined the footage and pictures of the funeral,
0:38:44 > 0:38:48just to understand what kind of people attended the funeral.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51For example, one of them was the leader of Shia
0:38:51 > 0:38:57militias in Iran.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01Another person was a representative of Hamas.
0:39:01 > 0:39:03Many other people attended to express their condolences
0:39:03 > 0:39:12in person to him.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15It shows how powerful and influential he is.
0:39:15 > 0:39:20General Soleimani financed, trained and equipped thousands
0:39:20 > 0:39:23of Shia militias to support Iran's allies in Syria and Iraq,
0:39:23 > 0:39:25including Lebanese Hezbollah, a group which is also
0:39:25 > 0:39:30on the US terrorist list.
0:39:31 > 0:39:43Its leader says Iran pays the bill.
0:39:58 > 0:40:05It's been estimated that Iran has spent $6 billion annually
0:40:05 > 0:40:11on the Syrian regime, basically, to keep it afloat.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15This is a conservative estimate on the proxy group,
0:40:15 > 0:40:17the Lebanese Hezbollah.
0:40:17 > 0:40:23Iran is estimated to be allocating $1 billion a year to the group,
0:40:23 > 0:40:31mostly according to Israeli intelligence forces.
0:40:32 > 0:40:34General Soleimani says, if Iran does not engage with enemies
0:40:34 > 0:40:37outside the country's borders, it will have to fight them
0:40:37 > 0:40:41in the streets of Tehran.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44As he tells his fighters on the Syrian front line,
0:40:44 > 0:40:51he is committed to expanding Iran's regional influence.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23But, at home, protesters on the streets are tearing down
0:41:23 > 0:41:23General Soleimani's banner.
0:41:23 > 0:41:26They are warning the tens of billions of dollars spent
0:41:26 > 0:41:29propping up Assad in Syria and financing Shia militias
0:41:29 > 0:41:31across the Middle East must be invested in their country
0:41:31 > 0:41:32and their future.
0:41:32 > 0:41:35We asked to speak to the Iranian government about this report
0:41:35 > 0:41:36but they declined to comment.
0:41:37 > 0:41:38That's all we have time for.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41We expected James Delingpole and Paris Lees to be at each other's
0:41:41 > 0:41:45throats but I think they are fixing dinner together in the green room.
0:41:45 > 0:41:46Emily will be here tomorrow.
0:41:46 > 0:41:52Have a very good night.