0:00:00 > 0:00:01That's a summary of the news.
0:00:01 > 0:00:04Now on BBC News, it's time for Newsnight with Evan Davis.
0:00:06 > 0:00:10It's always risky to hire the cheapest builder.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13It's true of your new kitchen, and it's true for government
0:00:13 > 0:00:13contracts as well.
0:00:13 > 0:00:16Is there a lesson there, after the death of the giant
0:00:16 > 0:00:19outsourcing contractor Carillion?
0:00:19 > 0:00:22It's quite difficult for ministers to go to Parliament and say,
0:00:22 > 0:00:25oh, we've gone for a more expensive bid here, because we thought
0:00:25 > 0:00:29it was a better bid.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Outsourcing was loved by Labour in power but Jeremy Corbyn says this
0:00:32 > 0:00:36crisis is a sign it has to go - we'll ask Dame Margaret Hodge
0:00:36 > 0:00:37if she thinks it has much future.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41And this - Hong Kong football fans booing the Chinese National Anthem.
0:00:41 > 0:00:45Has Beijing stuck to its promise - made to us - to respect democracy
0:00:45 > 0:00:52after it took back Hong Kong?
0:00:52 > 0:00:55After 30 years, I'm not sure whether the British Government
0:00:55 > 0:00:58still remember Hong Kong, and still remembers the promises
0:00:58 > 0:01:04that they have made.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07We hear from the new leader of the backbench Tory Brexiteers
0:01:07 > 0:01:10on whether we may be heading for a squidgy Brexit.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13And the rise of the specialist cultural sensitivity editor.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17Publishers are employing people just to sniff out anything in their books
0:01:17 > 0:01:20that someone might find offensive.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23Is this new front in the culture war a modern necessity,
0:01:23 > 0:01:25or dangerous censorship?
0:01:31 > 0:01:34Hello.
0:01:35 > 0:01:36So, today, the Carillion blame game.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40The world has not fallen in, yet, but the horror of the company
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Carillion going bust with we now know a mere £29 million in the bank,
0:01:44 > 0:01:46with so many contracts in operation, so many smaller suppliers unpaid,
0:01:47 > 0:01:50so much unfunded pension commitment and so many workers jobs dependent
0:01:50 > 0:01:53on it - all while it has found the money in the recent past
0:01:53 > 0:02:01to handsomely reward its executives and make big dividend payouts.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04The Government knows the optics don't look good and has asked
0:02:04 > 0:02:06for an accelerated investigation into the actions of the directors.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Jeremy Corbyn thinks it makes a bigger point about trying
0:02:09 > 0:02:13to contract everything out.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15Time to bring it in house, he says.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18But for the moment, contracts rule in the public sector -
0:02:19 > 0:02:21from prisons and schools, you can also see train franchises
0:02:21 > 0:02:25as the same thing.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Some private companies make a mint.
0:02:27 > 0:02:32Others - as Carillion knows - operate on dangerously thin margins.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35So is it possible for contracting out to ever work well?
0:02:35 > 0:02:36Here's Helen Thomas.
0:02:36 > 0:02:4330,000 businesses, hundreds of millions of pounds owed.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45Across the country, companies working on Carillion's private
0:02:46 > 0:02:47sector jobs are wondering
0:02:47 > 0:02:53what happens when Government support ends.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Then, the scale of the damage from the company's dramatic collapse
0:02:56 > 0:02:59could become clear.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02But there are tough questions starting to be asked in Westminster.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04About a third of government spending goes through external suppliers.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08So, has the Government got a good handle on who is building roads
0:03:08 > 0:03:10and hospitals, or providing crucial public services?
0:03:10 > 0:03:12And have passed lessons about the pitfalls of dealing
0:03:12 > 0:03:20with private companies been learned?
0:03:21 > 0:03:23About £250 billion of government spending goes through external
0:03:23 > 0:03:25suppliers, according to estimates from the National Audit Office.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28136 billion of that is spending by central government departments
0:03:28 > 0:03:34and the NHS.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37But the NAO notes that the Government is no clear figure
0:03:38 > 0:03:39for the amount it spends through commercial relationships.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42Decisions about what to outsource and how are often made
0:03:42 > 0:03:44within different departments.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48One concern is that there has not been enough central management
0:03:48 > 0:03:54of the whole process.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58Open book accounting clauses in contracts give the Government
0:03:58 > 0:04:00access to confidential information, that helps track what is happening
0:04:00 > 0:04:05to the taxpayer's pounds.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08But a survey in 2014 found only 31% of contracts have open book clauses.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11For only 19% of contracts have the Government received
0:04:11 > 0:04:13the relevant data and taken steps to verify it.
0:04:13 > 0:04:21A 2014 report by the Public Accounts Committee recommended open book
0:04:21 > 0:04:26accounting to help scrutiny, greater transparency and better
0:04:26 > 0:04:30information on contracts and their performance,
0:04:30 > 0:04:36focus on encouraging new and smaller entrance in to boost competition,
0:04:36 > 0:04:40investment in developing Cabinet Office and departmental
0:04:40 > 0:04:43expertise, and, crucially, contingency plans on all contracts,
0:04:43 > 0:04:47should a supplier failed.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51A follow up by the committee chaired by Meg Hillier in 2016 called
0:04:51 > 0:04:54the pace of change disappointing.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57We see repeatedly the same things, failure of contract letting,
0:04:57 > 0:05:01failure of contract management and companies that promised more
0:05:01 > 0:05:03than they can deliver for the price.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Really, there is still a very long way for Government to go.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08The system isn't working.
0:05:08 > 0:05:13There are too few large companies bidding for the contracts.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16They get good at bidding, but there is no guarantee that
0:05:16 > 0:05:19being good at bidding is good at running the service.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22But companies in the sector would agree that change is needed.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24Years of austerity and the drive to cut costs has put
0:05:25 > 0:05:26the sector under pressure.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28This chart shows operating profit
0:05:28 > 0:05:33margins for the UK construction sector.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Construction was the part of Carillion's business that
0:05:37 > 0:05:39generated the most losses, and the largest contractors have
0:05:39 > 0:05:41been making lower margins still, argue industry bodies.
0:05:42 > 0:05:43AMA research puts the industry-standard profit margins
0:05:43 > 0:05:45at 2% to 3% in construction,
0:05:45 > 0:05:53and maybe 3% to 5% in support services.
0:05:53 > 0:05:58But the reality is that those remain a target for some in a sector
0:05:58 > 0:06:01littered with profit warnings and restructurings.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05One former executive told me that margins had come under pressure
0:06:05 > 0:06:08across all outsourcing sectors will stop that has happened
0:06:08 > 0:06:12as companies have been asked to take on more risk,
0:06:12 > 0:06:14and, some contracts have become impossibly complicated.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17A less flexible client, the Government had also made it
0:06:17 > 0:06:19harder to react as problems arose.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23It is time, this person said, for a fundamental rethink.
0:06:23 > 0:06:30The Government has been developing an increasingly sophisticated
0:06:30 > 0:06:35appreciation that the lowest bidder is not necessarily the best.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38But it is quite difficult for ministers to go to Parliament
0:06:38 > 0:06:42and say, we have gone for a more expensive bid because we thought
0:06:42 > 0:06:45it was a better one, but I think maybe this instance
0:06:45 > 0:06:48will liven Parliament to the need for Government to look more
0:06:48 > 0:06:55intelligently and these bids.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59With promises of hearings and inquiries, dealings
0:06:59 > 0:07:01between the Government and its biggest suppliers will soon
0:07:01 > 0:07:02be getting much more scrutiny.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05We did ask the Government to join us tonight,
0:07:05 > 0:07:10but there was nobody available.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14But we have our own Newsnight experts here to make sense of this -
0:07:14 > 0:07:16political editor Nick Watt, business editor Helen Thomas
0:07:16 > 0:07:18and our policy editor Chris Cook.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21Nick, what are you hearing tonight about where this is going?
0:07:21 > 0:07:26I understand that tonight the Government is planning to extend
0:07:26 > 0:07:38the 48-hour period in which it will fund the official receiver
0:07:38 > 0:07:41to look at private contractors, what are known as the private sector
0:07:41 > 0:07:44counterparties to Carillion to see whether they want to basically
0:07:44 > 0:07:47accept the termination of contracts, or whether they want to pay
0:07:47 > 0:07:50for the ongoing costs.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54I am hearing talk in Whitehall that there have been talks
0:07:54 > 0:07:57with the Treasury, they want to be flexible, it is taking time to go
0:07:57 > 0:07:58through these contracts.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00They want to give them more time.
0:08:00 > 0:08:02But this will not be indefinitely...
0:08:02 > 0:08:03And they won't call it a bailout?
0:08:04 > 0:08:07It will not be the same as the support they are providing
0:08:07 > 0:08:08for the official receiver.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11This is a contract where the government battle has no stake,
0:08:11 > 0:08:12they are basically helping the receivers.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16On other aspects of this whole thing, where is it going to go now?
0:08:16 > 0:08:20It will take time to work out where the pain is going to come any
0:08:20 > 0:08:24supply chain, who is going to lay off people, and there will be
0:08:24 > 0:08:32lay-offs, and who might be taking financial hits.
0:08:32 > 0:08:37As we touched on earlier, Greg Clarke, the Business Secretary,
0:08:37 > 0:08:39has called for two investigations, one into the Carillion accounts,
0:08:39 > 0:08:42and the reporting to Europe to the profit warning in July,
0:08:42 > 0:08:44and also the conduct towards its collapse,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47including by current and former directors.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50We are assuming every aspect of this will be probed.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53Corporate governance in the company, including pay and board oversight,
0:08:53 > 0:08:56and there are various people around politics today promising to have
0:08:56 > 0:08:59people in front of committees and for them to be pretty fiery.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01You know, there will always be this lingering question
0:09:01 > 0:09:05of if the Government should be more aware of what was going on along
0:09:05 > 0:09:10the Carillion business.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13A rival company, into serve, launched a legal challenge in 2014
0:09:13 > 0:09:16into the award of a contract by the minute job defence,
0:09:16 > 0:09:21£4 billion.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24The contract went to Carillion, and the rival said that the bids
0:09:24 > 0:09:34were abnormally low and could be undeliverable.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36Whitehall insiders will be having lots of concessions
0:09:36 > 0:09:38about the meanings of this.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41A lot of them will not be agreeing with Jeremy Corbyn
0:09:41 > 0:09:50that it is the end of our outsourcing.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52Didn't think it is the end of outsourcing.
0:09:52 > 0:09:53That is clear.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55The big thing I keep hearing about his concentration.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58They bring up how frustrating it is that the market
0:09:58 > 0:10:06is so concentrated with outsourcing.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09There are relatively few players of a scale large enough to take
0:10:09 > 0:10:11on the kind of contracts that the Government
0:10:11 > 0:10:12likes to deliver.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15They also think that things are currently in hand,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17they think that pensions are going to be dealt
0:10:17 > 0:10:20with by the pension protection fund, they think public contracts will be
0:10:20 > 0:10:22picked up and be OK.
0:10:22 > 0:10:23Obviously problems with the supply chain.
0:10:23 > 0:10:37This isn't the sort of Lehman Brothers catastrophe.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39The problem for them in the short-term is,
0:10:39 > 0:10:41actually, if you look at the Serco share price,
0:10:41 > 0:10:42it has gone up.
0:10:42 > 0:10:43A big rival?
0:10:43 > 0:10:46Yes, because things are easier for them, there is one fewer bidder
0:10:46 > 0:10:47in the market.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50Are they seeing big changes to outsourcing now?
0:10:50 > 0:10:52Not in the short-term, not under this government.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55The big thing worth remembering is that there are reasons that
0:10:55 > 0:10:58people outsource which are not just about chiselling at the cost.
0:10:58 > 0:11:09Do you have the strategic capacity to do something?
0:11:09 > 0:11:12The civil service does not want to have a senior manager
0:11:12 > 0:11:15in charge of doing HR for the people that maintain own buildings.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19They are not interested in that and they cannot foresee doing that.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21Thanks, all of you, thank you very much.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Now I'm joined by Dame Margaret Hodge, the Labour MP who chaired
0:11:24 > 0:11:27the Public Accounts Committee in 2014 when it produced a report
0:11:27 > 0:11:29on outsourcing public services to the private sector.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33Do you think the collapse of Carillion is the sign of a system
0:11:33 > 0:11:36working, that a company that perhaps was not very well run has gone
0:11:36 > 0:11:37out of business?
0:11:37 > 0:11:38That happens.
0:11:38 > 0:11:43Or is it a sign of systemic failure?
0:11:43 > 0:11:46I think it is more of a sign of systemic failure.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49We looked at this through four years back, and I don't think
0:11:49 > 0:11:50what has changed.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52According to Meg Hillier, it hasn't.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54We found a number of things, actually what the Government
0:11:54 > 0:11:58was doing in trying to create a market, it was almost destroying
0:11:58 > 0:12:01the market because it was killing off a lot of smaller suppliers
0:12:01 > 0:12:04of public services and allowing these very big oligarch companies,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07that were very good at winning contracts, to run public services
0:12:07 > 0:12:08that they were less good at.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10We also found there isn't enough transparency.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12You can sort this out.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15If you want to play in the public sector market and you are using
0:12:15 > 0:12:17taxpayer's money, you ought to be open.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20So you shouldn't be able to hide behind commercial confidentiality.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22The Government can say we will make it open?
0:12:23 > 0:12:23And they should.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27When we talked to four of the big players, they were willing
0:12:27 > 0:12:27to do that.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30The other thing is the civil service capability.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32We all know that it's really isn't there.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34It is unrealistic to think we are going to get
0:12:34 > 0:12:49rid of outsourcing.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Over half of the service is now provided by the tax payer,
0:12:52 > 0:12:55this is not, you know, tax relief or benefits,
0:12:55 > 0:12:57pensions, but the services, over half of them are provided
0:12:58 > 0:12:58by private providers.
0:12:58 > 0:12:59You cannot shift back.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02Your leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has used the word fleecing
0:13:02 > 0:13:05the public, because the companies take big profits out of the delivery
0:13:05 > 0:13:06of public services.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08It honestly doesn't sound like they are taking
0:13:08 > 0:13:09very big profits.
0:13:09 > 0:13:10Carillion was struggling to survive.
0:13:10 > 0:13:11Which is the problem?
0:13:11 > 0:13:15The margins are or too fat?
0:13:15 > 0:13:17There is too much ideology, money conservatives,
0:13:17 > 0:13:18there is an ideology.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21They believe that the private sector can deliver more efficiency.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23Chris Grayling is probably the main proponent of this,
0:13:23 > 0:13:26and you have seen a disaster in the probation service.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30On the left, there is an ideology that it has to be the public sector
0:13:30 > 0:13:41that always delivers, and that becomes to produce a lead.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44We need to think of the user, the citizen and patient.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48It is much easier for me to go and get my flu jab from Boots.
0:13:48 > 0:13:49Is that outsourcing or privatisation?
0:13:49 > 0:13:51It works for me as a citizen.
0:13:51 > 0:14:00We ought to think about how we can construct these services.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04There is a big point here, outsourcing is linked
0:14:04 > 0:14:07to the big economy.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10They, respect for companies push something like cleaning or catering
0:14:10 > 0:14:13into agencies, they don't give pensions, they maybe have shorter
0:14:13 > 0:14:13contracts with staff.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16The map -- gig economy is the result.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18You don't think that has gone too far?
0:14:18 > 0:14:20The marketisation of all aspects of life?
0:14:20 > 0:14:29I think I do.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32We have to make this work, because there is too much delivered
0:14:32 > 0:14:33through private companies.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36You have to have the transparency and create a market.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39That means a government backed or changing the way tenders.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43If you are a small company, there was no way you can go to that
0:14:43 > 0:14:46expensive process they have to skill of the civil service and then
0:14:46 > 0:14:48you have to to have ethical standards by behalf
0:14:48 > 0:14:49on these big companies.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52That involves things like making sure they employ people properly,
0:14:52 > 0:14:55we ought to be regulated, codes of practice and pay taxes,
0:14:55 > 0:14:57all of that sort of thing.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59Don't lie about how they are delivering the services.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02And I think if we did that, outsourcing could work better.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05We've also got to move from the ideology to apply that bad,
0:15:06 > 0:15:08public good, and move to putting the citizen at the heart
0:15:09 > 0:15:09of delivering services.
0:15:09 > 0:15:16Margaret Hodge, thank you.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20Before Britain exited Hong Kong two decades ago,
0:15:20 > 0:15:25it said it would be keeping a close watch on its former colony once
0:15:25 > 0:15:28it was to be in Chinese hands.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31We had signed a Joint Declaration with China, that said for 50 years,
0:15:31 > 0:15:33the freedoms Hong Kong enjoyed would be preserved.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37John Major said that in the event of any breach of that agreement
0:15:37 > 0:15:40by the Chinese, Britain would pursue every legal and other avenue
0:15:40 > 0:15:41available to challenge it.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44Well, there are some who look at Hong Kong now,
0:15:44 > 0:15:46and observe Chinese restrictions on democracy and free speech
0:15:46 > 0:15:48slowly creeping in.
0:15:48 > 0:15:49Tonight, student pro-democracy leaders there - including
0:15:50 > 0:15:52Joshua Wong - are awaiting the outcome of their final appeal
0:15:53 > 0:15:55to overturn prison sentences for their roles in sparking 2014's
0:15:55 > 0:16:00massive pro-democracy protests.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03Should Britain step into the breach?
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Danny Vincent reports from Hong Kong.
0:16:05 > 0:16:13Every day 35,000 people take the ferry to Kowloon.
0:16:13 > 0:16:19And Hong Kongers enjoy rights unique in China.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21Thanks to the terms of 1997 handover, Beijing can't interfere
0:16:21 > 0:16:28in internal matters.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32There's even a mini-constitution - known as the "basic law".
0:16:32 > 0:16:34But many worry that Beijing is dramatically undermining that
0:16:34 > 0:16:37agreement, that democracy activists are being locked up and that Britain
0:16:37 > 0:16:45is looking the other way.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47We're on our way to a new development -
0:16:47 > 0:16:51the railway station that will be the new terminus for a high speed
0:16:51 > 0:16:58railway link connecting Hong Kong to mainland China.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00It's raising serious concerns over Hong Kong's autonomy,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03because inside this station Chinese national law will apply,
0:17:03 > 0:17:05not Hong Kong law.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09The basic law states that mainland laws can not be enforced in Hong
0:17:09 > 0:17:13Kong.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16But when the new Kowloon rail terminus opens later this year,
0:17:16 > 0:17:18Chinese customs and immigration officials will operate
0:17:18 > 0:17:27inside the station, with powers of search and arrest.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30Tanya Chan has long fought to defend the basic law.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33She argues this is the clearest violation yet of the territory's
0:17:33 > 0:17:38legal independence.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41This is absolutely the worst precedent, the worst example so far.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44We are actually putting Chinese officials in the heart of Hong Kong
0:17:44 > 0:17:47and now this is the very first time that in Hong Kong
0:17:47 > 0:17:54we are going to apply national law.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56Thousands demonstrated against the plan on New Year's Day.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00The basic law is a list of rights - including freedom of speech,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03of the press, freedom to demonstrate.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07They fear the plans for the station are the thin end of the wedge
0:18:07 > 0:18:09and Britain is not standing by its international obligations
0:18:09 > 0:18:15to protect their rights.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18I'm not sure whether the British Government still remembers Hong Kong
0:18:18 > 0:18:20and still remembers the promises that they have made.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23The British Government definitely has a role to play and definitely
0:18:23 > 0:18:25can make their comments and raise their concerns.
0:18:25 > 0:18:41We are waiting for them.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44Three years, ago the "umbrella" protest brought tens of thousands
0:18:44 > 0:18:46on to the streets over Beijing's control of the candidates
0:18:46 > 0:18:52for Hong Kong's leadership.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55They were led by students like Joshua Wong, but the protests
0:18:55 > 0:18:57failed and Beijing still controls who leads Hong Kong.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00So the students started their own party to campaign
0:19:00 > 0:19:05for more democracy.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08Joshua Wong and fellow activist Nathan Law believe the court system
0:19:08 > 0:19:12is no longer independent and it's been used against them.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14They have both been imprisoned for public order offences.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17Now, they're out on bail, but a hearing tomorrow could put
0:19:17 > 0:19:18Joshua back in prison.
0:19:18 > 0:19:24And he said he was interrogated naked when he was last in custody.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27As a young prisoner, I served my prison sentence
0:19:27 > 0:19:29inside the highest security prison in Hong Kong.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33At the same time, they even urged me to take off all my clothes
0:19:33 > 0:19:35when I need to answer the question.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39They just treat us...
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Like a dog instead of a human.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44There are suspicions that Triad gang members are paid
0:19:44 > 0:19:48to intimidate activists.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52Joshua says prison inmates told him that they had been told to attack
0:19:52 > 0:19:56the umbrella movement.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59When I was serving the prison sentence in jail, I met a lot
0:19:59 > 0:20:01of inmates who claimed they had background,
0:20:01 > 0:20:04come from the gangster and they receive money to attack
0:20:04 > 0:20:12or physically assault us duringumbrella movement.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Joshua doesn't know who paid them.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18The prison authorities deny mistreatment and we were unable
0:20:18 > 0:20:21to speak to prisoners to confirm the claim of intimidation.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Those who fight for Hong Kong's legal independence say they're also
0:20:24 > 0:20:30fighting for its cultural identity.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34I am meeting someone who may well be at the heart of the next flashpoint.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Hong Kong football fans have been booing the Chinese national anthem
0:20:37 > 0:20:47when it's played at home games.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52Now, Beijing has told Hong Kong to criminalise the jeering.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55The national anthem is not representation of Hong Kong...
0:20:55 > 0:20:57Jack and hundreds like him will be breaking the law
0:20:57 > 0:20:59if they carry on booing.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01Why do football fans boo the Chinese national anthem?
0:21:01 > 0:21:05We don't think that we are Chinese, we are Hong Kong.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08The difference is that Hong Kong has democracy and also we have the right
0:21:08 > 0:21:15of speech and right of demonstration in Hong Kong.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18This was at a game between Hong Kong and Bahrain.
0:21:18 > 0:21:23Fans could be imprisoned for three years.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25New laws could be applied retrospectively.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Critics say this contradicts the basic law in terms of freedom
0:21:28 > 0:21:30of expression, applying Chinese national law
0:21:30 > 0:21:35and applying it retrospectively.
0:21:35 > 0:21:36But Jack is defiant.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39Can they stop you disrespecting the Chinese national anthem?
0:21:39 > 0:21:42No.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44At West Kowloon Magistrates Court, nine more activists face
0:21:44 > 0:21:49public order charges.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53All were key figure in the umbrella protests.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Tanya Chan, who opposes Chinese law in the new rail station,
0:21:56 > 0:22:00is one of the defendants.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03In fact, over 50 democracy activists and elected law-makers currently
0:22:03 > 0:22:10face court cases that could bar them from office or see them locked up.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13This is just one hearing in a series of legal moves
0:22:13 > 0:22:14against the activists.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16Professors, student leaders and local politicians
0:22:16 > 0:22:19are all going through the courts.
0:22:19 > 0:22:26And all of them could face prison time.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29This case is seen as a clear warning to every level of Hong Kong's
0:22:29 > 0:22:32democracy camp - the umbrella movement must be crushed.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34People who lead protests against Beijing must be prepared
0:22:34 > 0:22:37to face jail and, by using the courts, the tool
0:22:37 > 0:22:41is the legal system itself.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43We are defending our right to have demonstrations,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45freedom of expression and very important is our right
0:22:45 > 0:22:54to have our own choice of government.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57But there is substantial opposition to the democracy activists in Hong
0:22:57 > 0:22:59Kong.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01Pro-Beijing candidates here command the largest number of seats
0:23:01 > 0:23:03in the partly-elected local chamber.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Regina Ip is is a strong supporter of mainland China.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09She says those who argue the basic law is under threat
0:23:09 > 0:23:18are being legal fundamentalists.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21In a free society like Hong Kong, with a wide range of different
0:23:21 > 0:23:24opinions, we have among our citizenry people who you might call
0:23:24 > 0:23:26"fundamentalists" you know, legal and judicial fundamentalists,
0:23:26 > 0:23:37who believe in sticking to every letter of the basic law.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40Many pan-democrats in Hong Kong feel that the Government and perhaps
0:23:40 > 0:23:42Beijing are targeting them and carrying out somewhat
0:23:42 > 0:23:43of a political persecution.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46What do you say to that?
0:23:46 > 0:23:50We have no political offences in Hong Kong.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52If people are charged for disrupting public order,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55incitement or disturbance, that is all based on common law
0:23:55 > 0:23:57and common law principles and the statutory laws
0:23:57 > 0:23:58that we inherited from Britain.
0:23:58 > 0:24:11I think these accusations are totally ungrounded.
0:24:11 > 0:24:14Hong Kong's autonomy was enshrined in the basic law,
0:24:14 > 0:24:15but the criminalisation of the umbrella protesters
0:24:15 > 0:24:18and others who challenge Beijing does raise questions about the rule
0:24:18 > 0:24:22of law in the territory.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24It also raises questions about Britain's commitment
0:24:24 > 0:24:27to the people and the system it once pledged to protect.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31Danny Vincent there.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34We did try to speak to the Chinese Government
0:24:34 > 0:24:36and the the British government about this story, but nobody
0:24:36 > 0:24:45was available from either.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48The EU has been sounding both tough and tender as regards Brexit today.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51In a speech to the Parliament today, the President
0:24:51 > 0:24:54of the Council Donald Tusk did the tender bit.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58David Davis said if a democracy cannot change its mind it ceases
0:24:58 > 0:25:04to be a democracy.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07We here on the continent haven't had a change of heart.
0:25:07 > 0:25:16Our hearts are still open to you.
0:25:16 > 0:25:28Forget the idea that we will set our own fishing quotas.
0:25:28 > 0:25:34The draft instructions appear to be quite hard line on what the
0:25:34 > 0:25:44transition will look like. It seems to be a race to the top for the
0:25:44 > 0:25:44member states.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47Each state is piling their own issues into the negotiations.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51Nick Watt is back us with.
0:25:51 > 0:25:54Why did Michel Barnier come out with that our heart is open?
0:25:54 > 0:25:58It was Donald Tusk and sometimes you need to set his words to music.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02But what he said was music to the ears of a small number
0:26:02 > 0:26:10of Remain supporters who are seeking to reverse Brexit.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14What they need is Brussels to say, we would like to have you back
0:26:14 > 0:26:18and the reason why they need that is by the time of the autumn
0:26:18 > 0:26:21when we will have this deal, they want the British people to see
0:26:21 > 0:26:24two options - the new deal or the existing membership
0:26:24 > 0:26:33and they're talking about ways of defeating Brexit.
0:26:33 > 0:26:39Is this going to happen?
0:26:39 > 0:26:43I was speaking to a member of the cabinet who supported Remain,
0:26:43 > 0:26:45who said you couldn't see it happening unless public
0:26:45 > 0:26:46opinion shifted dramatically.
0:26:46 > 0:26:4960-40 in favour of Remain, it not really shifting.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52One of the most most vocal supporters of Brexit has been
0:26:52 > 0:27:05the Tory backbencher Jacob Rees Mogg.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09He was rewarded for his work in this area today by being appointed
0:27:09 > 0:27:11Chairman of the party's influential European Research Group -
0:27:11 > 0:27:15a sort of internal lobbying grouping which works to push for a hard
0:27:15 > 0:27:15Brexit.
0:27:15 > 0:27:19I spoke to him earlier and I put it to him that despite President Tusk's
0:27:19 > 0:27:22comments earlier, the EU was preparing to be pretty tough
0:27:22 > 0:27:24and uncompromising for the next round of negotiations.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26Well, I'm all in favour of being tough
0:27:26 > 0:27:27and uncompromising.
0:27:27 > 0:27:28I want a proper Brexit.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30I want us to leave the European Union, heart,
0:27:30 > 0:27:31soul and mind.
0:27:31 > 0:27:35I don't want us to have the sort of Brexit where, because they've
0:27:35 > 0:27:38given us all sorts of baubles, we have stayed in bits that
0:27:38 > 0:27:39deny us freedom.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42The key thing is coming up with the trade negotiation now.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45It is so important that we maintain the flexibility to do deals
0:27:45 > 0:27:47with other countries, that were not so bound
0:27:47 > 0:27:50in by the EU's requirements that we can't get the benefits
0:27:50 > 0:27:53of cheaper food, clothing and footwear, that will flow
0:27:53 > 0:27:55from setting up our own trading relationships.
0:27:55 > 0:28:02So, their being tough may actually push us into a clearer Brexit.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04Could we talk about the transition?
0:28:04 > 0:28:06Because the Government is pretty keen on a transition,
0:28:06 > 0:28:07or implementation.
0:28:07 > 0:28:09The EU, all signs are, from the draft negotiating
0:28:09 > 0:28:19positions, they're going to be really tough.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21Well, I think the language is really important.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24Is it an implimentation period which the Government is asking for,
0:28:24 > 0:28:25or is it a transition?
0:28:25 > 0:28:28If it is an implimentation period, we've left the EU
0:28:28 > 0:28:29and we are implementing the consequences.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33That is to say it might take time to put in new immigration
0:28:33 > 0:28:34queues at Heathrow.
0:28:34 > 0:28:35And, until that's done, we're implementing.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39If it's a transition, we are in fact still in the European Union.
0:28:39 > 0:28:43If they set our fishing quotas, if new laws coming in from the EU
0:28:43 > 0:28:45affect the UK, if the ECJ still has jurisdiction,
0:28:45 > 0:28:48it would be untrue to say we have left.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50It would be an extension of our membership.
0:28:50 > 0:28:54If that is what the Government should want to do, it should do it
0:28:54 > 0:28:57under the terms of Article 50 and be honest about it.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00It would be a deceit to have a transition that kept us
0:29:00 > 0:29:02in the EU for two years by default.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05And you wouldn't necessarily be against extending our membership
0:29:05 > 0:29:07for two years to get everything sorted out,
0:29:07 > 0:29:10but you want honesty about that if that is what the plan is?
0:29:10 > 0:29:13Because the EU, by the way, is in no doubt at all,
0:29:14 > 0:29:16it is an extension of membership by another name.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18I would be opposed to extension of membership.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20An implimentation period is fine.
0:29:20 > 0:29:21A transition period is not.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23The Prime Minister, who I fully support,
0:29:23 > 0:29:30has been very careful to say implementation period...
0:29:30 > 0:29:33But you're just using the language that you know is going to appeal
0:29:34 > 0:29:35to you, business just hears transitional arrangement.
0:29:35 > 0:29:37They don't make any distinct at all.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40No, it's very important to focus on the details.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42The Prime Minister is a person of great precision.
0:29:42 > 0:29:44She doesn't use language loosely.
0:29:44 > 0:29:45And she has invariably said implimentation,
0:29:45 > 0:29:49and she has said that we will leave on the 29th of March 2019,
0:29:49 > 0:29:51and I fully support her position.
0:29:51 > 0:29:51Right.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53I wonder how you interpreted Nigel Farage's comments
0:29:53 > 0:29:54on a second referendum.
0:29:54 > 0:29:57Because that, again, was seen by some as a kind of sign
0:29:58 > 0:30:00of nervousness on the Brexit side that it's just
0:30:00 > 0:30:01slipping away, potentially.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04I don't know why Mr Farage decide to say he wanted
0:30:04 > 0:30:05a second referendum.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08One of the interesting things about polling on this at the moment
0:30:08 > 0:30:10is that people, they broadly haven't changed from where
0:30:10 > 0:30:13they were in the referendum, but on the question do you want
0:30:14 > 0:30:16another referendum, everyone in this country is Brenda from Bristol.
0:30:16 > 0:30:23There is no appetite for another referendum.
0:30:23 > 0:30:26As it happens, I think there would be real anger
0:30:26 > 0:30:29if there was a second one, because we're not one of those
0:30:29 > 0:30:33smaller EU states, that when we vote to give the answer that the EU
0:30:33 > 0:30:37doesn't like get told to vote again and again until we do as we're told,
0:30:37 > 0:30:45like good little boys.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47Therefore I think, if there was a second referendum,
0:30:47 > 0:30:49you would see considerable popular discontent.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51You're now running the ERG, the European Reform Group.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54This is about 60 Tory MPs, on the more Brexit side,
0:30:54 > 0:30:55the Brexit side, let's say.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58Are you going to hold the Government's feet to the fire,
0:30:58 > 0:31:01on all the things we've been talking about?
0:31:01 > 0:31:03The Government's determination to go for a clear Brexit,
0:31:03 > 0:31:08rather than a slightly messier, softer one?
0:31:08 > 0:31:12The ERG is a group of like-minded members of Parliament and it
0:31:12 > 0:31:19provides research to help us with work on European issues.
0:31:19 > 0:31:23I'm very keen to help the Government achieve the policy that it set out,
0:31:23 > 0:31:27and the Prime Minister set out particularly in the Lancaster House
0:31:27 > 0:31:31speech, and encourage a vigorous implimentation of that policy.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34The Government has my personal, complete support in doing that.
0:31:34 > 0:31:35Jacob Rees-Mogg, thanks very much.
0:31:35 > 0:31:36Thank you very much.
0:31:37 > 0:31:39Pretty well anyone who writes anything these days knows how easy
0:31:40 > 0:31:42it is to be unwittingly - or wittingly - offensive.
0:31:42 > 0:31:46In the era of identity politics, it's not hard to trigger a reaction
0:31:46 > 0:31:48that says you are guilty of insensitivity to
0:31:48 > 0:31:50one group or another.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52Now, while some writers thrive on controversy,
0:31:52 > 0:31:54many want to avoid it, and even if they don't
0:31:54 > 0:31:55their publishers might.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57So enter the idea of sensitivity readers.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00People employed to look at a book ahead of publication, to advise
0:32:00 > 0:32:03on potential mis-steps within.
0:32:03 > 0:32:07As always, the US leads in these trends and the American press has
0:32:07 > 0:32:09become quite pre-occupied by the debate as to whether
0:32:09 > 0:32:12sensitivity readers improve books, or censor free speech and indulge
0:32:12 > 0:32:15a noisy Twitter mob too keen to take umbrage at anything.
0:32:15 > 0:32:22Here's Stephen Smith on how it works.
0:32:25 > 0:32:27# I'm mad about good books
0:32:27 > 0:32:29# Can't get my fill...#
0:32:29 > 0:32:34Budding authors have always been told, write about what you know.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37That seems particularly canny advice now, when an imaginative leap
0:32:37 > 0:32:40into unfamiliar territory can lend a writer in trouble for
0:32:40 > 0:32:45misrepresentation or stereotyping.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Some readers and critics are alert to any real or perceived failures
0:32:48 > 0:32:50of authenticity in areas including race, gender and sexuality.
0:32:50 > 0:32:57So, publishers and writers are turning to so-called
0:32:57 > 0:33:00sensitivity readers, who scan texts before publication
0:33:00 > 0:33:03on the lookout for any missteps that might jar or give offence.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06One author of books for young adults told us she used sensitivity readers
0:33:06 > 0:33:09when she created characters with deafness and selective mutism.
0:33:09 > 0:33:20I have a friend who is deaf, and I also knew somebody who was
0:33:20 > 0:33:21a British sign language interpreter.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24So, they both individually read it and came back
0:33:24 > 0:33:25to me with their notes.
0:33:25 > 0:33:30And then we discussed it together.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33It was to make sure that I was representing, in this case,
0:33:34 > 0:33:35deafness, as authentically and truthfully as possible,
0:33:36 > 0:33:38to make sure that, for people who have experience of it,
0:33:38 > 0:33:44that they would be able to recognise the way I was portraying it.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47But is there a danger that writers and readers
0:33:47 > 0:33:54could become oversensitive?
0:33:55 > 0:33:56That difficult material will simply be avoided
0:33:56 > 0:33:58for fear of giving offence?
0:33:58 > 0:33:59And sensitivities vary, of course.
0:33:59 > 0:34:02Even just about everyone's favourite boy wizard managed to upset some
0:34:02 > 0:34:05over so-called occult themes in the Harry Potter books.
0:34:05 > 0:34:08Right now, young adult readers seemed to be more alive to issues
0:34:08 > 0:34:14of sensitivity than the general book buying public.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16Yes, I think very much so.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19Especially with social media allowing people to have much more
0:34:19 > 0:34:21of a voice than maybe they would have done before,
0:34:21 > 0:34:22and in larger numbers.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25I think it's definitely something that I, as a YA author,
0:34:25 > 0:34:32and friends of mine who are YA authors are very aware of.
0:34:32 > 0:34:33# Sitting and reading
0:34:34 > 0:34:38# Enjoying the breathing of you...#
0:34:38 > 0:34:40As more authors take advice from sensitivity readers,
0:34:40 > 0:34:42some bookworms may be in for a more
0:34:42 > 0:34:52stress-free experience.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54But will that really make for a happy ending?
0:34:54 > 0:34:57Joining me now to discuss is author Laura Moriarty,
0:34:57 > 0:35:00who worked with sensitivity readers on her novel 'American Heart'.
0:35:00 > 0:35:00She's in Kansas.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03And with me in the studio is publisher Sharmaine Lovegrove,
0:35:03 > 0:35:06who heads up London-based Dialogue Books.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08Good evening to you.
0:35:08 > 0:35:09Laura, you had a curious experience.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12You worked with sensitivity readers, and it was a book
0:35:12 > 0:35:13with Muslim themes.
0:35:13 > 0:35:22And there was still quite a lot of anger at your book anyway?
0:35:22 > 0:35:23Exactly.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25As I was writing the book, I actually instinctively did it
0:35:25 > 0:35:30on my own, I asked a Muslim American friend to read the book and I asked
0:35:30 > 0:35:32some Persian American friends to read the books.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35I even sent the manuscript to a friend of a friend in Iran,
0:35:35 > 0:35:43and she sent her thoughts.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45I wanted to make sure it was authentic and accurate,
0:35:46 > 0:35:47my depictions of Muslims and Iranians.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50Once I sold the book to Harper, they also hired sensitivity readers
0:35:50 > 0:35:52to go through the book again.
0:35:52 > 0:35:56I think what is interesting is, for me, I didn't mind when Harper
0:35:56 > 0:35:58said they wanted sensitivity readers to go over it again.
0:35:58 > 0:36:02If I think of it as accuracy readers, if I think about someone
0:36:02 > 0:36:06who has an experience that can look at my work and make sure I am
0:36:06 > 0:36:15being accurate and thoughtful about how I depict groups.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20That is fine with me.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24I think the biggest misperception is that the writers are forced
0:36:24 > 0:36:27to take every suggestion that the sensitivity reader makes.
0:36:27 > 0:36:28That wasn't the case for me.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30I just want to get...
0:36:30 > 0:36:33Basically, you agreed the book with the sensitivity readers
0:36:34 > 0:36:37and the publisher, then was a lot of upset.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40The saviour of the book of the Muslims was a white woman,
0:36:40 > 0:36:48and it was more her story than theirs?
0:36:48 > 0:36:50Right, there were people that were upset, when the description
0:36:50 > 0:36:54of the book came out, that the narrator and
0:36:54 > 0:36:58the protagonist is a white non-Muslim girl.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01She is very bigoted at the beginning.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04She has grown up in the extremely xenophobic United States.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06She overcomes her prejudice by meeting a Muslim.
0:37:06 > 0:37:12What did you make of that story, the book through the sensitivity
0:37:12 > 0:37:29reader and then there was outrage?
0:37:29 > 0:37:33The question overall is why we need sensitivity writers?
0:37:33 > 0:37:35Who is writing the stories?
0:37:35 > 0:37:39It seems like a formidable amount of people that were involved to make
0:37:39 > 0:37:44sure that something was correct.
0:37:44 > 0:37:52If we have the people employed in the first place in publishing
0:37:52 > 0:37:55houses, it seems like it is from the confidence from the publishers
0:37:55 > 0:38:04as where it has gone wrong.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07I also question the idea of anyone being able to write anything
0:38:07 > 0:38:09from any perspective, the idea of a White saviour
0:38:09 > 0:38:15with a Muslim, that is complicated.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17There are issues there.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20The point is that Muslims would not have one view
0:38:20 > 0:38:22on that, would they?
0:38:22 > 0:38:25You don't necessarily want the noisiest or the most offended
0:38:25 > 0:38:26people to dictate what is published?
0:38:26 > 0:38:29Or is that not where you end up?
0:38:29 > 0:38:31Absolutely.
0:38:32 > 0:38:33We have to remember that YA
0:38:33 > 0:38:34publishing is particularly sensitive.
0:38:34 > 0:38:35Young adults?
0:38:35 > 0:38:40Yes, because the issues are front-loaded.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43This is about reading for the next generation.
0:38:43 > 0:38:44We absolutely have to get this right.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48We have to get the reading right, we have to get the writing right.
0:38:48 > 0:38:52We have to listen to the voices that are coming through and complaining.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55Actually, we have to to think who is writing our stories,
0:38:55 > 0:38:59who are our children going to be listing to?
0:38:59 > 0:39:02Is there a problem, forget sensitivity readers,
0:39:02 > 0:39:05is the problem basically that too many publishers and writers
0:39:05 > 0:39:06are scared of offending people?
0:39:07 > 0:39:10Well, I think that is very much the case right now.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13I think there is an idea that you could possibly hire enough
0:39:13 > 0:39:15sensitivity readers where nobody would be offended,
0:39:15 > 0:39:17and that is of course impossible.
0:39:17 > 0:39:22With my book, I had my readers, the publishing house hired more,
0:39:22 > 0:39:26and people were still incredibly offended.
0:39:26 > 0:39:28As you say, there are different sensitivities,
0:39:28 > 0:39:31even within marginalised communities.
0:39:31 > 0:39:36You're never going to please everybody and make everybody happy.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39I think the focus needs to be an authenticity.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43I would disagree, and I think that while I agree that we would
0:39:43 > 0:39:45like to see more diversity in publishing and writers,
0:39:46 > 0:39:49I don't think that there should be such strict limits on who should
0:39:49 > 0:39:51tell such stories.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53I think we can imagine each other's lives.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56My first novel was about a girl growing up on welfare,
0:39:57 > 0:40:02and she was white, and nobody ever asked me anything about it.
0:40:03 > 0:40:06Do you have any worries about this being a sort of shutting down,
0:40:06 > 0:40:10rather than opening up.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13What we really want to see us diversity in publishing,
0:40:13 > 0:40:16diversity in terms of characters, and confidence from the writers.
0:40:16 > 0:40:19It has to be fair and it has to be pronounced.
0:40:19 > 0:40:29We need to have that in order for the next generation.
0:40:29 > 0:40:31Thank you both very much indeed.
0:40:31 > 0:40:32That's it for tonight.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35But following last week's row when Donald Trump was accused
0:40:35 > 0:40:37of favouring immigrants from Norway over those from Haiti,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40people have been asking just what is it about the liberal
0:40:41 > 0:40:44Norwegians that the President actually likes.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48Now a new theory has emerged online, that Norway is in fact helping
0:40:48 > 0:40:50Mr Trump to maintain his most closely guarded cover-up.
0:40:50 > 0:40:51Judge for yourself.
0:40:51 > 0:40:58Good night.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03DONALD TRUMP:Ricardo Sanchez, on his Spanish drivetime radio show
0:41:03 > 0:41:06in Los Angeles, has taken to calling Donald J Trump "The Man
0:41:06 > 0:41:15of the Toupee".
0:41:15 > 0:41:18This was on the front page of the New York Times.
0:41:18 > 0:41:19I don't wear a toupee.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22It's my hair!