:00:00. > :00:07.The secretary of homeland security, working with myself and my staff,
:00:08. > :00:12.will begin immediate construction of a border wall.
:00:13. > :00:19.Donald Trump paves the way to drastically reduce America's
:00:20. > :00:22.involvement in the United Nations, as he signs off on his giant
:00:23. > :00:27.What signals is the President sending out about fortress America?
:00:28. > :00:31.I'll ask the former Mexican ambassador to the US.
:00:32. > :00:33.Also tonight, Britain promised Hong Kong it would help
:00:34. > :00:37.preserve its political freedoms in law.
:00:38. > :00:39.We fear the midnight knock at our door.
:00:40. > :00:41.We are no longer even safe in our own beds.
:00:42. > :00:44.We may be in Hong Kong, we may have broken no Hong
:00:45. > :00:47.Kong law, but we can still be made to disappear from Hong Kong soil.
:00:48. > :00:50.Nearly 20 years on from the handover to China,
:00:51. > :00:52.democracy looks increasingly fragile.
:00:53. > :00:56.Have we let down the people of that former territory?
:00:57. > :01:00.We speak to Hong Kong's last Governor, Chris Patten.
:01:01. > :01:05.It puzzles me that you think yourself qualified to attack me,
:01:06. > :01:08.given that I have 30 years experience in the archives
:01:09. > :01:11.and my books have been published by some of the greatest publishing
:01:12. > :01:15.A new film - Denial - tells us how Holocaust denier
:01:16. > :01:20.David Irvine tried to sue a historian in the High Court.
:01:21. > :01:23.I ask the scriptwriter David Hare about lies and libel
:01:24. > :01:40.Shortly after 2:30am, President Trump alerted the world
:01:41. > :01:43.that it was a big day for national security and that he was
:01:44. > :01:48.The wall - one of the most memorable pledges of his campaign trail -
:01:49. > :01:52.will be constructed along the border with Mexico, aimed at fulfilling his
:01:53. > :01:55.pledge to crack down on both illegal immigration and the flow
:01:56. > :02:01.The efficiency - possibility even - of a 2,000-mile barrier has raised
:02:02. > :02:04.eyebrows and is hotly debated, even within Trump's own cabinet.
:02:05. > :02:08.His Homeland Security advisor - retired General John Kelly -
:02:09. > :02:11.said it could only be effective to the extent it was backed up
:02:12. > :02:14.by far more sweeping measures, including more manpower and good
:02:15. > :02:17.relations with those south of the border.
:02:18. > :02:20.It'll cost up to ?20 billion - money Trump insists will be
:02:21. > :02:24.How unique is this attempt at a fortress?
:02:25. > :02:41.Donald Trump continues to lay the foundation stones of his presidency,
:02:42. > :02:44.signing executive orders on issues like rolling back Obamacare, a
:02:45. > :02:49.freeze on government hiring and withdrawing from trade deals. Today
:02:50. > :02:53.he signed an order to deliver perhaps his most famous campaign
:02:54. > :03:00.pledge. We will build a great wall along the southern border. And
:03:01. > :03:05.Mexico will pay for the wall. 100%. For those who thought this was
:03:06. > :03:12.merely a clap line for the Trump stump, today President Trump
:03:13. > :03:14.confirmed he was totally serious. Is secretary of homeland security,
:03:15. > :03:18.working with myself and my staff, will begin immediate construction of
:03:19. > :03:24.a border wall. APPLAUSE
:03:25. > :03:34.The United States of America gets back control of its borders, gets
:03:35. > :03:38.back its borders. Can we go ahead? But, as previous presidents have
:03:39. > :03:43.found, it is one thing to sign and seal and another to deliver. On his
:03:44. > :03:47.second full day in office, President Obama ordered the closing of
:03:48. > :03:51.Guantanamo Bay. But it stubbornly outlasted even his second term in
:03:52. > :03:55.office. His plans were locked up by an uncooperative Congress. So might
:03:56. > :04:03.Donald Trump's wall meet similar obstacles? Its obstacle is literary,
:04:04. > :04:07.build a wall. There are a lot of nuts and bolts in the process. First
:04:08. > :04:12.of all, the money has to be appropriated, it has to go to
:04:13. > :04:15.Congress, and Verdi is the question of what the physical wall looks
:04:16. > :04:21.like. If some of it fencing, and is some of it a virtual wall? Today was
:04:22. > :04:28.basically a message that they are serious about doing something wall
:04:29. > :04:32.related. But there are of course already extensive physical barriers
:04:33. > :04:36.on the US- Mexican border but they have been placed where people might
:04:37. > :04:42.try to cross. Previous administrations have seen little
:04:43. > :04:46.point in adding to extensively to the natural border provided by an
:04:47. > :04:51.inhabitable desert. Most undocumented immigrants come in
:04:52. > :04:54.through other means, student visas or work visas or tourist and they
:04:55. > :05:00.overstay. This isn't an issue where vast numbers of people are
:05:01. > :05:04.physically crossing the border in an undocumented sense. There are some,
:05:05. > :05:08.of course, but the majority come to the US for other means and the wall
:05:09. > :05:13.does not prevent that. And then there is the second part of the
:05:14. > :05:21.promise, the funding. Remember I said, Mexico is paying. But how?
:05:22. > :05:25.That was what Mr Trump was asked in his first sit down interview as
:05:26. > :05:30.president. We will be starting those negotiations with Mexico relatively
:05:31. > :05:37.soon and we will be in a form reimbursed. They will pay us back?
:05:38. > :05:43.100%. The American taxpayer will pay at first? We will be reimbursed at a
:05:44. > :05:48.later date from whatever transaction we make. The Mexican president said
:05:49. > :05:52.recently that Mexico will not pay and those against their dignity as a
:05:53. > :05:58.country and as Mexicans. I think he has to say that. He has to say that.
:05:59. > :06:04.And he may say that to Mr Trump's face when the president visits
:06:05. > :06:07.Washington next week, that is if the Mexican president doesn't cancel the
:06:08. > :06:11.visit altogether, as some unconfirmed reports have suggested.
:06:12. > :06:18.So which stones will the president add to his policy edifice next?
:06:19. > :06:23.After signing today's executive orders, the New York Times tonight
:06:24. > :06:25.reports that two new orders are being prepared, limiting US
:06:26. > :06:32.involvement in the UN and other international bodies. But Mr Trump
:06:33. > :06:37.will know that politics is about creating alliances, persuading
:06:38. > :06:38.people and, yes, doing deals, and even presidents sometimes struggle
:06:39. > :06:40.to get what they want. So is the wall an obvious solution
:06:41. > :06:42.that fails to address any of the real problems,
:06:43. > :06:45.or is this the right starting point for a country acknowledging
:06:46. > :06:47.its immigration problem? Joining me now, Arturo Sarukhan,
:06:48. > :07:02.former Mexican Ambassador This was clearly no empty threat,
:07:03. > :07:07.then. This is actually being built. Well, we don't know exactly what's
:07:08. > :07:11.going to be built. If we take Donald Trump, President Trump at face
:07:12. > :07:13.value, and I think we should after 18 months of campaign and these
:07:14. > :07:21.first days of the administration, there may be some form of brick and
:07:22. > :07:27.mortar wall that goes up, but again this is a decision that will do very
:07:28. > :07:32.little to alter the reality either of how undocumented immigration is
:07:33. > :07:37.coming into and staying in the US, or fundamentally alter some of the
:07:38. > :07:43.underpinnings of US national security and how you can guarantee
:07:44. > :07:48.that in the 21st century. Is your sense that President Nieto should
:07:49. > :07:54.cancel his planned trip next week? I think it will be very hard for him
:07:55. > :07:57.to come up next week, as was envisaged, in part because you still
:07:58. > :08:01.don't have a US administration that has its cabinet members confirmed
:08:02. > :08:06.and, given that Mexico has said it will put every single issue of the
:08:07. > :08:10.bilateral agenda on the table, that means engaging with every single
:08:11. > :08:14.agency at the department of Washington, DC, it's going to be
:08:15. > :08:16.hard to come and discuss a full agenda when you don't have the
:08:17. > :08:22.counterparts across the table because there are still to be
:08:23. > :08:26.confirmed by the sudden Sennett. But, because of this decision today,
:08:27. > :08:31.which could be construed by many ambush, while high-level Mexican
:08:32. > :08:34.officials are in town, starting those conversations leading up to
:08:35. > :08:43.the visit, but if this is going to be the way policy is put forward in
:08:44. > :08:47.terms of my way or the highway, it may make sense for the president to
:08:48. > :08:54.postpone and come back at a better time. Can you have decent relations
:08:55. > :08:58.now between Mexico and the US? Donald Trump said this evening that
:08:59. > :09:03.Mexico's economic future is important to the US, and John Kelly,
:09:04. > :09:08.his homeland adviser, said that the relations were imperative. Can those
:09:09. > :09:12.two countries still have them? Absolutely, these two countries are
:09:13. > :09:17.joined at the hip. They have to succeed together. Failure for one
:09:18. > :09:22.means failure for the other. We have $1.4 billion of trade going across
:09:23. > :09:25.the border every day and 35 million Mexican-Americans in the US. We have
:09:26. > :09:30.1.2 million Americans living in Mexico and it is imperative that
:09:31. > :09:35.both countries continue to build what we've been doing for the past
:09:36. > :09:39.20 years. You say that as if that is the perfect solution, but what we
:09:40. > :09:47.are hearing tonight is that Donald Trump has put Nafta on the agenda,
:09:48. > :09:53.the agenda. If he pulls out of that, the Mexican economy is sunk, isn't
:09:54. > :09:57.it? It's not sunk, but it will be dramatically impacted, but so will
:09:58. > :10:01.the US economy. There are 6 million US jobs depending directly on trade
:10:02. > :10:07.with Mexico, so if you are a president that has run on an agenda
:10:08. > :10:14.of bringing back jobs to America, if you destroy Nafta, you destroy 6
:10:15. > :10:18.million US jobs in a brushstroke. So, when Donald Trump says that
:10:19. > :10:22.Mexico will reimburse him for the building of this wall, he is 100%
:10:23. > :10:26.certain, he said this evening, is there truth in that? Would Mexico
:10:27. > :10:32.pay money or, I don't know, continued membership of the US in
:10:33. > :10:38.Nafta? Is there a deal to be done whereby you do pay for the wall? I
:10:39. > :10:43.don't think that is on the table. I think Mexico and the US have done
:10:44. > :10:46.and can continue to do great things together, but one thing I don't
:10:47. > :10:50.think they are going to do is build a wall. There are of course measures
:10:51. > :10:54.the president could take on remittances, tariffs and trade, but
:10:55. > :10:57.I don't think he will see Mexican monies from the Mexican Treasury
:10:58. > :10:59.coming across the border to pay for the wall. Thank you for joining us.
:11:00. > :11:02.Joining me now, Max Fisher, Analyst at the New York Times who's
:11:03. > :11:05.breaking the story tonight about the moves Trump is making
:11:06. > :11:12.to minimize the US role in the United Nations.
:11:13. > :11:21.This is something that would affect us all, of course. Just explain what
:11:22. > :11:25.you are hearing. There two executive orders that are in draft form that
:11:26. > :11:30.are circulating the White House now, and they are currently planning to
:11:31. > :11:35.sign them in the end of the week. The first would review a huge subset
:11:36. > :11:38.of multilateral treaties that the United States is currently engaged
:11:39. > :11:43.in. It's not clear which treaties they have in mind, but it sure looks
:11:44. > :11:45.like it opens up planet and environmental agreements currently
:11:46. > :11:49.in force to be abrogated. The second and in some ways bigger one is
:11:50. > :11:55.reviewing funding for the United Nations, and this draft executive
:11:56. > :11:59.order, if signed, would do two things. It would terminate any US
:12:00. > :12:05.funding for any UN agency that needs a subset of conditions, any support
:12:06. > :12:11.for abortion programmes, there are a few rules that are very vague,
:12:12. > :12:14.something about it including help for countries that opposed the
:12:15. > :12:18.United States, and they would cut funding, not sure what that means.
:12:19. > :12:24.Once they have done that, the order would mandate a 40% cut in all US
:12:25. > :12:28.funding towards the United Nations, any UN agency or any other
:12:29. > :12:31.international organisations, which would amount to billions of dollars.
:12:32. > :12:35.It's not clear where that cut would come from, but the order singled out
:12:36. > :12:41.peacekeeping, which is very concerning because the US holds a
:12:42. > :12:44.huge amount of international peacekeeping, and a few other items.
:12:45. > :12:50.Reading between the lines, because your report suggests a lot of it
:12:51. > :12:53.would be auditing and reducing, terminating funding for any
:12:54. > :12:56.organisation controlled or influenced by any state which
:12:57. > :13:01.sponsors terrorism, a lot of this would sound quite sensible at first
:13:02. > :13:05.glance, cutting down on waste to a bloated organisation. You think it's
:13:06. > :13:09.more than that? And you have to remember that a really big amount of
:13:10. > :13:16.US funding to UN doesn't go to stay closed or red pens out towards
:13:17. > :13:22.peacekeeping operations. The US funds about 27% of the UN's
:13:23. > :13:27.peacekeeping operations, a lot of aid to refugees. These programmes
:13:28. > :13:30.are already stretched thin. There are currently peacekeeping
:13:31. > :13:35.operations in 16 countries. If the US cuts almost half its funding for
:13:36. > :13:38.those, the operations won't go away, but it has pretty significant
:13:39. > :13:43.ramifications for the people living in those countries, Mali, Cyprus,
:13:44. > :13:49.Lebanon, places which are not really a great position to have a bunch of
:13:50. > :13:54.UN leave suddenly because the United States no longer wants to be part of
:13:55. > :13:58.the United Nations as fully. Do we know if the Paris climate change
:13:59. > :14:01.deal is in jeopardy, and do we know which parts of the organisations
:14:02. > :14:08.would specifically be hit by the cut? On the treaties, the executive
:14:09. > :14:12.order is very short, about a page and a half, but the subset of
:14:13. > :14:15.multilateral treaties that it is targeting, which is anything
:14:16. > :14:21.unrelated to extradition, directly related to trade or national
:14:22. > :14:25.security, would be reviewed, and this commission they are setting up
:14:26. > :14:28.would have to look at it and say, yes, we want to continue or not
:14:29. > :14:33.continue. One of the biggest ones that would be in the cross hairs
:14:34. > :14:37.would be the Paris climate agreement, which President Trump has
:14:38. > :14:40.signalled a lot of scepticism of, and it's not unreasonable to suspect
:14:41. > :14:44.he would use this as a mechanism to withdraw from it. The agencies, we
:14:45. > :14:48.don't know. Technically, what this is setting up is a panel which will
:14:49. > :14:54.recommend cuts, figuring out where we should cut, but it also makes
:14:55. > :15:00.some suggestions for the one big one is peacekeeping. Another one of
:15:01. > :15:02.these suggested cuts, oddly, if the international criminal court, which
:15:03. > :15:06.is strange because the United States doesn't provide funding to that.
:15:07. > :15:09.Thank you for joining us appreciate you.
:15:10. > :15:10.Tomorrow, Theresa May heads to Washington,
:15:11. > :15:13.the first foreign leader to hold meetings with the new US President.
:15:14. > :15:16.The two could not be more different - in temperament,
:15:17. > :15:17.in character, and possibly in their priorities too.
:15:18. > :15:23.Our political editor Nick Watt is here.
:15:24. > :15:30.First what you are hearing on this side of the Atlantic about those
:15:31. > :15:35.alterations to the US - UN relationship now and funding. There
:15:36. > :15:38.were audible gasps of breath in Whitehall and Parliament when the
:15:39. > :15:43.report flashed up on the US website. One senior Tory said to me, oh my
:15:44. > :15:47.God, it makes Putin looked like a pussycat. There is a feeling that
:15:48. > :15:51.were these executive orders to be enacted they could severely
:15:52. > :15:54.undermine the UN. My senior Tory said the timings of this report is
:15:55. > :16:07.particularly unfortunate for Theresa May because as you say she flies to
:16:08. > :16:09.the US in the morning to seek Donald Trump. The senior Tory said to me,
:16:10. > :16:12."It's a reality check, she needs to calling people who know what they
:16:13. > :16:14.are doing. " There is a feeling Theresa May has planned this trip
:16:15. > :16:16.very tightly. I've heard from sources close to Cabinet ministers
:16:17. > :16:19.she hasn't really been consulting cabinet colleagues and some voices
:16:20. > :16:23.have been wondering whether it is wise to rush over that quickly.
:16:24. > :16:28.How is she preparing, handling the trip?
:16:29. > :16:32.Theresa May hopes when she becomes the first world leader to meet
:16:33. > :16:35.Donald Trump in the White House within a week of his inauguration
:16:36. > :16:38.she will be laying the ground for a very constructive relationship. She
:16:39. > :16:43.will be talking about renewing the special relationship for this new
:16:44. > :16:48.age and as a sign of that constructive relationship she will
:16:49. > :16:52.be handing Donald Trump a kick, sorry, a quake, an ancient Scottish
:16:53. > :16:55.artefacts. There is on our screen. An ancient Scottish cup designed to
:16:56. > :17:00.signal friendship. She hopes that will lead to a good friendship. Some
:17:01. > :17:04.of the language she will dues when she is in the US will take on
:17:05. > :17:09.renewed significance in light of that New York Times report. She will
:17:10. > :17:13.essentially make a plea for multilateral organisations, when she
:17:14. > :17:18.says the institutions upon which the world relies were so often conceived
:17:19. > :17:22.or inspired by our two nations working together.
:17:23. > :17:26.And she will talk about deepening defence cooperation through Nato.
:17:27. > :17:29.These are perhaps brave words, because obviously Donald Trump told
:17:30. > :17:33.Michael Gove in that interview recently that Nato was obsolete.
:17:34. > :17:39.Although, to be fair to the president, did Nato was important to
:17:40. > :17:43.him and appeared to be suggesting it is wrongly configured to tackle
:17:44. > :17:46.terrorism. We thought on the eve of this meeting on Thursday between
:17:47. > :17:50.this and likely pairing of Donald Trump and Theresa May we would find
:17:51. > :17:58.them helpful words of advice for the Prime Minister. Here is our film.
:17:59. > :18:03.It's absolutely vital to stress that Britain doesn't want to have to
:18:04. > :18:06.choose between its very special relationship with the United States
:18:07. > :18:12.and its very significant relationship with China. And in that
:18:13. > :18:17.context, the most important and biggest threat to everyone's
:18:18. > :18:19.prosperity is climate change, which cannot be resolved without
:18:20. > :18:24.cooperation and in particular cooperation with China for its also,
:18:25. > :18:28.I think, really important to point out that China understands something
:18:29. > :18:32.which is very important about the economy and the energies and the
:18:33. > :18:38.technologies of the future, which is that they are not based on oil and
:18:39. > :18:42.gas, they are renewable, low-carbon, clean, green and efficient.
:18:43. > :18:47.China understands that. The United States ought to be innovating and
:18:48. > :18:55.competing on that front, not trying to turn the clock back.
:18:56. > :18:58.America's greatness stems from its allies, no country in the history of
:18:59. > :19:01.the world has had more allies or use them to better effect on Trump
:19:02. > :19:05.tragically doesn't get that. The most important thing for Theresa May
:19:06. > :19:10.to get across is to say that the allies really matter, not just
:19:11. > :19:13.Britain, because Trump seems to have clocked that, but European allies.
:19:14. > :19:17.These are countries that believe in American greatness and he can work
:19:18. > :19:20.with them in a way you cannot work with someone like Vladimir Putin,
:19:21. > :19:25.who doesn't believe in American greatness.
:19:26. > :19:32.My advice would be to represent the best interests of Britain, make sure
:19:33. > :19:39.the United Kingdom comes first in any negotiations that you're having.
:19:40. > :19:45.He's a very nice guy. He understands the national interests very well. He
:19:46. > :19:48.would never expect you to kowtow to the United States, and nor by the
:19:49. > :19:53.way would anybody around him. I think that's the vibe I'm getting
:19:54. > :19:58.out on the street here, too. Having said that, diplomacy is obviously
:19:59. > :20:02.primary and very, very important in these situations. There will be a
:20:03. > :20:05.lot of pressure to say things about what happened during the campaign
:20:06. > :20:09.trail, especially on the back of last 'sprotest. I would still steer
:20:10. > :20:15.clear from it, stick to policy and start forging a relationship of two
:20:16. > :20:19.nations that can lead to the world again.
:20:20. > :20:24.It's a very tricky situation. You're dealing with someone who is a bully
:20:25. > :20:30.and who is very fragile underneath, because most bullies are. You need
:20:31. > :20:34.to be as robust as you can, and not by the romance that he has already
:20:35. > :20:40.proposed, which I think is the way to diminish you. And to find a way
:20:41. > :20:48.to represent yourself as a leader of an important country in the world.
:20:49. > :20:52.Two words, trade deal. That's all really she has to worry about. Right
:20:53. > :20:56.now he needs to prove to his friends in Washington that he is capable of
:20:57. > :21:00.cutting a deal with countries as well as tearing up trade deals. He
:21:01. > :21:05.said he does in my multilateral deals, wants to do one-on-one. Along
:21:06. > :21:08.comes Britain. We are leaving the EU at exactly the time you need the
:21:09. > :21:11.deal politically as much as we need one economic clue. This is a window
:21:12. > :21:16.of opportunity that might last forever. We don't know a lot how
:21:17. > :21:20.long he will be president for or how long Republicans will control
:21:21. > :21:23.Congress for, but for these two years, perhaps shorter, there is a
:21:24. > :21:27.chance for Theresa May to walk away with the best possible price after
:21:28. > :21:32.Brexit, a free-trade deal with the biggest and most successful economy
:21:33. > :21:38.on earth. Be nice, be constructive, but don't
:21:39. > :21:41.pander and try to get him to understand his importance in meeting
:21:42. > :21:45.are these big global challenges and get him to the words Nato is good.
:21:46. > :21:55.Some advice there. Before Theresa May heads off this
:21:56. > :21:59.has been a big Brexit week. Tomorrow we will see the wording of the
:22:00. > :22:02.Parliamentary builder makes sure the government complies with the Supreme
:22:03. > :22:05.Court then make sure its parliament and not government that triggers
:22:06. > :22:09.those Brexit negotiations. It is interesting. We will see how tightly
:22:10. > :22:14.worded that Dell is and how easy or difficult it will be for MPs and
:22:15. > :22:17.latterly peers to amend that bill. But the government has cleared its
:22:18. > :22:21.Commons business next week and they are pretty confident it will
:22:22. > :22:25.complete its common stage by February the 9th, when the House of
:22:26. > :22:30.Commons rises for a mini recess and then it over to the House of Lords.
:22:31. > :22:34.Interestingly we will get that bill after something of a U-turn from
:22:35. > :22:38.Theresa May when she announced at Prime Minister's Questions earlier
:22:39. > :22:40.today she would after all publish a white paper, setting out the
:22:41. > :22:44.framework for her negotiations. But the government is saying we will
:22:45. > :22:48.have to wait a little bit of time for that White paper because it is
:22:49. > :22:51.separate from the bill. The bill is about triggering negotiations. The
:22:52. > :22:53.White Paper is about the framework for the negotiations. Nick, thank
:22:54. > :22:56.you. The Hong Kong Handover
:22:57. > :22:58.will see its 20 year anniversary this year -
:22:59. > :23:01.marking the moment in 1997 when the territory was returned
:23:02. > :23:03.from British to Chinese rule. To address the huge fears that
:23:04. > :23:06.Hong Kong's political and economic freedoms would be undermined
:23:07. > :23:08.by Communist China, those liberties The so-called Joint Declaration
:23:09. > :23:20.committed both countries to an understanding that it was
:23:21. > :23:22.One Country, Two Systems. But how much has either country
:23:23. > :23:24.stuck to its promise The Umbrella Protests two years ago
:23:25. > :23:28.brought a new generation But no new steps
:23:29. > :23:34.towards real democracy. Has Britain chosen to prioritize
:23:35. > :23:36.trade over probity? We ask the last Governor
:23:37. > :23:38.of Hong Kong, Chris Patten. There has been racing in Hong Kong
:23:39. > :23:45.Jockey Club for almost as long Deng Xiaoping once promised that,
:23:46. > :23:54.after the handover, horse racing would continue and dance parties
:23:55. > :23:58.would go on. His promise was kept here,
:23:59. > :24:02.but other promises made 20 years ago The fault lines that brought tens
:24:03. > :24:09.of thousands onto the streets two There are now more radical
:24:10. > :24:14.voices on both sides, and those fighting for the freedoms
:24:15. > :24:16.that set Hong Kong apart from the rest of China feel
:24:17. > :24:19.increasingly abandoned. Unfortunately, the rest
:24:20. > :24:21.of the world, particularly Great Britain, would rather pretend
:24:22. > :24:27.not to see what is going on, and I'm afraid that,
:24:28. > :24:30.if they continue to ignore the steady erosion, then
:24:31. > :24:34.by the time they wake up to the fact that One Country,
:24:35. > :24:37.Two Systems exists only in name, One Country, Two Systems
:24:38. > :24:41.is the deal agreed between For 50 years after 1997,
:24:42. > :24:50.Hong Kong is guaranteed what the rest of China can't have -
:24:51. > :24:53.free speech, free press and an independent justice system,
:24:54. > :24:58.and a partially elected assembly. Now Hong Kong people
:24:59. > :25:05.are to run Hong Kong. That is the promise,
:25:06. > :25:13.and that is the unshakeable destiny. For many, that promise
:25:14. > :25:18.now feels hollow. Kevin Lau thinks a free press
:25:19. > :25:21.is threatened by intimidation of journalists and media owners
:25:22. > :25:23.who are sympathetic to China or afraid to lose
:25:24. > :25:29.advertising revenue. So he started an independent,
:25:30. > :25:33.crowd-funded news site. Now is the time, because Hong Kong
:25:34. > :25:36.media is facing such He was the editor of a newspaper
:25:37. > :25:45.that looked into mainland business, including offshore holdings
:25:46. > :25:47.by the Chinese leadership. In 2014, he was attacked
:25:48. > :25:50.on the street by two He was hospitalised for five months
:25:51. > :25:56.and struggles to walk today. The fact that an innocent journalist
:25:57. > :26:03.was brutally attacked by violence is a threat to press freedom
:26:04. > :26:09.in Hong Kong, because it sends chilling signals
:26:10. > :26:14.to working journalists. Press freedom has been
:26:15. > :26:21.nowhere in the past. I'm not sure whether it
:26:22. > :26:24.will continue in the future. The threat to free speech
:26:25. > :26:26.is made clear in the case They peddled gossipy publications
:26:27. > :26:33.about the Beijing leadership. Then, in 2015, all five disappeared
:26:34. > :26:36.- only to reappear in Chinese One, a British citizen, Lee Bo,
:26:37. > :26:42.may have been kidnapped Another, Lam Wing-kei, was detained
:26:43. > :26:51.as he crossed the border. TRANSLATION: I was visiting my
:26:52. > :26:54.girlfriend in the mainland and I was stopped by two officials
:26:55. > :26:57.at the border. They took me to a police van
:26:58. > :26:59.where there were dozens Then I was taken to the police
:27:00. > :27:03.station in Shenzhen, where I was held in the prisoners'
:27:04. > :27:07.compound and interrogated. Mr Lam was released after eight
:27:08. > :27:11.months, on the condition that he handed over a hard disk
:27:12. > :27:14.containing information on their customers,
:27:15. > :27:19.which he says he hasn't done. TRANSLATION: I believe there
:27:20. > :27:21.are people who are watching me, My main worry is that they will
:27:22. > :27:27.kidnap me and take me You have the abduction
:27:28. > :27:31.of the four publishers, the exercise of extrajudicial powers
:27:32. > :27:36.on Hong Kong soil, which makes us all wonder, should we fear
:27:37. > :27:40.the midnight knock at our door? We are no longer even
:27:41. > :27:42.safe in our own beds. We may be in Hong Kong,
:27:43. > :27:45.we may have broken no Hong Kong law, but we can still be made
:27:46. > :27:49.to disappear from Hong Kong soil. Anson Chan is one of Hong Kong's
:27:50. > :27:52.most respected leaders. She was Chris Patten's number two
:27:53. > :27:55.and held several of the most senior She accuses China of attacking
:27:56. > :28:01.the One Country, Two Systems agreement and Britain of doing
:28:02. > :28:05.nothing to protect it. You put your signature to the joint
:28:06. > :28:07.declaration and you handed over 7 million people
:28:08. > :28:11.to what is still a totalitarian state, on the basis
:28:12. > :28:15.of those promises. Do you think the British government
:28:16. > :28:17.simply isn't brave enough I think Great Britain feels
:28:18. > :28:23.that its first and best interest lies in trading with China,
:28:24. > :28:25.and they don't much care whether they trade
:28:26. > :28:30.with China on any terms. A new generation has emerged
:28:31. > :28:34.since the Umbrella Protest in 2014, caused by Beijing's decision to vet
:28:35. > :28:37.the short list for the Students Joshua Wong, then just 17,
:28:38. > :28:48.and Nathan Law, 20, were two Beijing never backed down,
:28:49. > :28:58.but this seems to push more The students now lead
:28:59. > :29:06.their own political party, campaigning here about treatment
:29:07. > :29:08.by the police and pushing In 2017, I believe there will be
:29:09. > :29:13.more demonstrations and protests, especially under the interference
:29:14. > :29:15.of Beijing government. This just proves the failure
:29:16. > :29:19.of One Country, Two Systems. A lot of people after the movement
:29:20. > :29:23.feel frustrated and upset because there was no true democracy
:29:24. > :29:26.in Hong Kong after the movement, so more or less the goal
:29:27. > :29:29.of the movement failed. Maybe we lost a battle,
:29:30. > :29:35.but we will win the war. In elections in September,
:29:36. > :29:37.pro-democrats experienced Nathan Law was elected
:29:38. > :29:45.to the legislative council, but pro-Beijing forces are trying
:29:46. > :29:48.to use the court to This new generation of activists
:29:49. > :29:54.is challenging Beijing on many fronts, building a pro-democracy
:29:55. > :29:59.network across east Asia. But watch what happened when they
:30:00. > :30:02.returned from a trip to Taiwan. A pro-Beijing mob attacked
:30:03. > :30:05.Nathan as he arrived The Communist Party
:30:06. > :30:19.is behind all these things. They tried to stigmatise
:30:20. > :30:23.all the Democrats and then try to mobilise these patriotic mobs
:30:24. > :30:28.to personally attack each of us. We messaged one of the leaders
:30:29. > :30:30.of the protest on WeChat. When we told him we were from
:30:31. > :30:36.the BBC, he ended the conversation. But we did find out
:30:37. > :30:39.that he is the head of a tour guide union that works
:30:40. > :30:42.with visitors from China. And the role of unions,
:30:43. > :30:44.trade associations and executive boards in extending China's
:30:45. > :30:50.influence in Hong Kong is crucial. Many people here have told us that,
:30:51. > :30:52.from transport unions to school boards, the university councils,
:30:53. > :30:54.pro-Beijing voices are It affects the way everyday
:30:55. > :31:03.decisions are made in major The infrastructure and economic ties
:31:04. > :31:11.that bind are growing stronger. This is the new bridge that
:31:12. > :31:14.will span the Pearl River delta, And there are many in
:31:15. > :31:20.Hong Kong who do support Holden Chow represents the biggest
:31:21. > :31:26.party in the legislative council. I would say you can't simply bring
:31:27. > :31:30.everything to Beijing. Under that One Country,
:31:31. > :31:32.Two Systems we are running, we do need back-up from the central
:31:33. > :31:36.government, as we have a lot of economic activities and close
:31:37. > :31:40.ties with the mainland. There has always
:31:41. > :31:43.been tension between pro-democrats and pro-Beijingers,
:31:44. > :31:49.but is there now a third position? Yao Wei-ching and Baggio Leung
:31:50. > :31:51.are separatists, arguing They were excluded from the chamber
:31:52. > :32:00.for using offensive language. This was the response
:32:01. > :32:01.from pro-Beijingers The separatists have only limited
:32:02. > :32:11.support so far, but they think All those applications that I can
:32:12. > :32:17.use in this phone has been hacked. They are taking us to a town where
:32:18. > :32:23.they say most are from the mainland. They believe that high levels
:32:24. > :32:26.of immigration are deliberate policy You can see that it is no
:32:27. > :32:33.longer part of Hong Kong, This is something
:32:34. > :32:41.like a city in China. I think that most of
:32:42. > :32:46.the Hong Kongers don't want to see Support for independence is not
:32:47. > :32:52.widely held, but it represents a radical shift in tone,
:32:53. > :32:55.partly because the goals of the Umbrella Movement
:32:56. > :32:59.have been frustrated. If the One Country, Two Systems
:33:00. > :33:02.cannot protect Hong Kong people from the control, the next
:33:03. > :33:10.step is to separate from China. In Happy Valley, they pride
:33:11. > :33:12.themselves on being Tonight, over 100 million US
:33:13. > :33:20.dollars will be bet, But those who fight to keep
:33:21. > :33:29.Hong Kong free from Beijing's control feel increasingly
:33:30. > :33:34.on their own. Earlier I spoke to the man you saw
:33:35. > :33:37.in that film, Lord Patten, I asked him if he agreed
:33:38. > :33:41.with his former number two there, Anson Chan, that the world,
:33:42. > :33:44.and Britain in particular, were being wilfully blind,
:33:45. > :33:47.ignoring the erosion of human rights I think the point that Anson
:33:48. > :33:55.makes is a very good one. She's one of the most remarkable
:33:56. > :33:58.people I've ever worked with, and I would be very loathe to ever
:33:59. > :34:02.disagree with her. My worry is related to that,
:34:03. > :34:11.which is I wonder what's happened to our sense of honour and our sense
:34:12. > :34:16.of responsibility, particularly in Britain,
:34:17. > :34:18.it's above all a British question. We signed the joint declaration
:34:19. > :34:24.with China, it's a treaty at the UN, it's supposed to commit us
:34:25. > :34:27.to standing up for Hong Kong's You don't get much sense of British
:34:28. > :34:35.governments actually standing over those promises and obligations,
:34:36. > :34:41.and I think that's a great pity, and it's all for derisory,
:34:42. > :34:46.ludicrous reasons. The argument, which is I suspect
:34:47. > :34:52.going to be tested quite a bit in the next few months,
:34:53. > :34:56.the argument that the only way you can do trade with China
:34:57. > :35:00.is by kowtowing to China on political issues is drivel,
:35:01. > :35:04.it's complete nonsense. You once called it the unshakeable
:35:05. > :35:10.destiny of Hong Kong people Does it still feel
:35:11. > :35:15.unshakeable to you? Yes, because I think
:35:16. > :35:18.at the end of the day, I think the values, the attributes
:35:19. > :35:26.which make Hong Kong I think that Communism,
:35:27. > :35:32.whatever that is, Leninism with capitalist characteristics,
:35:33. > :35:39.is not a long runner. I think the rule of law,
:35:40. > :35:43.I think freedom of speech, I think freedom of worship,
:35:44. > :35:45.I think all the freedoms you associate with a plural society
:35:46. > :35:50.are long-term winners - not just in everywhere else
:35:51. > :35:55.in the world, but in Asia as well. So is Anson Chan going too far
:35:56. > :35:59.when she says you put your signature to the joint declaration,
:36:00. > :36:01.you hand over 7 million people to what is still
:36:02. > :36:04.a totalitarian state, The British government isn't
:36:05. > :36:09.being brave enough to stand up? I think the British government would
:36:10. > :36:14.be well advised to prove her wrong, because I think it would be
:36:15. > :36:17.dishonourable not to do so. I worry about now people
:36:18. > :36:29.are prepared to sell our honour for alleged trade deals,
:36:30. > :36:33.which never actually happen. I think that would be
:36:34. > :36:36.calamitous, and what do we represent in the world,
:36:37. > :36:41.if that's what happens? In what sense would the next
:36:42. > :36:46.generation of leaders in Hong Kong, who will be, sooner or later,
:36:47. > :36:49.democratically chosen, in what sense would they feel any
:36:50. > :36:52.special relationship to the United Kingdom,
:36:53. > :36:55.if that's how we behave? Look, I feel very strongly
:36:56. > :37:01.that we let down the parents of this I think it would be a tragedy
:37:02. > :37:08.if we let down these kids as well. I meant by the last ten
:37:09. > :37:14.or 15 years of British responsibility in Hong Kong,
:37:15. > :37:19.I think we should have done more We did a certain amount,
:37:20. > :37:25.but I don't think we did enough and I think if Hong Kong had had
:37:26. > :37:29.another five or ten years' experience of democracy it
:37:30. > :37:32.would have been much more difficult for the Chinese authorities to have
:37:33. > :37:38.rolled it back, as they have done. We're now almost 20 years
:37:39. > :37:43.since the handover and we're still arguing about whether or not,
:37:44. > :37:47.in effect, Beijing should decide who runs Hong Kong
:37:48. > :37:52.or whether the people We asked the Chinese ambassador
:37:53. > :37:59.to come on, but he declined. The British Foreign
:38:00. > :38:01.Office told us that they believe that One Country,
:38:02. > :38:03.Two Systems continues to be the best arrangement for Hong Kong's
:38:04. > :38:06.long term stability and prosperity, "We hope and expect that
:38:07. > :38:10.One Country, Two Systems will be respected and successful long
:38:11. > :38:16.into the future." The Holocaust denier David Irving
:38:17. > :38:19.rose to prominence as a historian who refused to believe
:38:20. > :38:22.in the concentration camps of Auschwitz and the systemic
:38:23. > :38:24.extermination of Jews In 1996, he brought a case
:38:25. > :38:28.against Penguin Books and the American historian
:38:29. > :38:32.Deborah Lipstadt - accusing her The case has now been made
:38:33. > :38:39.into a major film - Denial - In a moment we will speak
:38:40. > :38:44.to its scriptwriter David Hare, and ask what it tells us about lies,
:38:45. > :38:47.libel and disinformation First, a clip of the film
:38:48. > :38:51.showing Rachel Weisz, who plays Deborah Lipstadst,
:38:52. > :38:55.the accused writer. Some people are saying
:38:56. > :38:58.that the result of this trial On the contrary, I've been
:38:59. > :39:06.defending it against someone Freedom of speech means you can
:39:07. > :39:10.say whatever you want. What you can't do is lie and then
:39:11. > :39:15.expect not to be accountable for it. Not all opinions are equal,
:39:16. > :39:19.and some things happen, The Earth is round, the ice caps
:39:20. > :39:34.are melting and Elvis is not alive. Just before coming on air
:39:35. > :39:46.I spoke to David Hare. I asked him whether that clip was at
:39:47. > :39:47.the crux of what the film was trying to say.
:39:48. > :39:50.Well that was the reason that I wanted to write the film, really,
:39:51. > :39:53.because there's a sort of view at the moment that
:39:54. > :39:57.As if it's an argument to be able to say, "Well that's my opinion".
:39:58. > :40:00.And so you say something and then somebody says something else
:40:01. > :40:02.and obviously this has been encouraged by the Internet,
:40:03. > :40:06.this idea that you can just assert things and it is a false kind
:40:07. > :40:10.of democracy to say that everybody's opinions are equal.
:40:11. > :40:16.Those opinions that are backed up by fact and provable fact
:40:17. > :40:19.are superior to the opinions of those that are not
:40:20. > :40:25.That's really what I wanted to write about.
:40:26. > :40:29.That trial at the time pretty much killed Irving's reputation,
:40:30. > :40:32.from what I remember, he was never taken seriously again.
:40:33. > :40:36.But I wonder if you think, in this age, he would still thrive,
:40:37. > :40:40.that we have become more accepting of untruth?
:40:41. > :40:42.Personally, I don't think the Internet is
:40:43. > :40:49.I think that at the time, he walked into a trap.
:40:50. > :40:55.You know, it was his idea to bring the lawsuit.
:40:56. > :40:58.It was always felt, people kept accidentally calling
:40:59. > :41:03.Deborah Lipstadst the prosecution, but she wasn't the prosecution,
:41:04. > :41:08.He chose to take it to court, and he did that thinking
:41:09. > :41:14.that his deliberate mis-manipulation of the truth would not
:41:15. > :41:17.be revealed in court, but by a rather wonderful process,
:41:18. > :41:21.thanks to Anthony Julius, the solicitor, and Richard Rampton,
:41:22. > :41:27.the brilliant Counsel, they actually proved not
:41:28. > :41:30.just that he was lying but they also managed
:41:31. > :41:35.This was in the 90s, in a pre-Twitter age.
:41:36. > :41:37.I think it was Hugo Rifkind who wrote this week,
:41:38. > :41:42.When we stop concentrating, this is when we understand the world.
:41:43. > :41:47.If enough people behold a thing it becomes true."
:41:48. > :41:50.Do you sense that is what we are entering now?
:41:51. > :41:52.You know, I'm a little bit resistant to all this.
:41:53. > :41:55.In other words, you know, people are saying that
:41:56. > :41:58.Donald Trump is a liar, and clearly he is a liar.
:41:59. > :42:06.But there have been a whole series of American presidents who have said
:42:07. > :42:09.Nixon wasn't overly fond of the truth.
:42:10. > :42:13.Reagan claimed to know nothing about Iran-Contra,
:42:14. > :42:16.he claimed not to know America was financing terrorism
:42:17. > :42:24.You know, lying in politics is not a new things.
:42:25. > :42:27.The majority of presidents, let's say, have told a lie in office.
:42:28. > :42:29.Is there a difference, though, if the media,
:42:30. > :42:33.if broadcasters know at the time that something is a lie,
:42:34. > :42:37.should they strive for balance or should they call it out as a lie?
:42:38. > :42:40.I think they have to call it out as a lie.
:42:41. > :42:44.Look, what was unusual about Irving was that he claimed
:42:45. > :42:47.that the mistakes he had made in the book Hitler's War,
:42:48. > :42:52.and historians working for the defence found 25 mistakes
:42:53. > :42:56.of fact in the book, but they all tended one way.
:42:57. > :43:00.In other words, and what Richard Rampton was able to do,
:43:01. > :43:02.was to prove that there was a motivation for
:43:03. > :43:08.You know, some historians got upset and said no book can survive
:43:09. > :43:15.The answer of the defence was - no, no, no, all historians make
:43:16. > :43:22.mistakes, but if all their mistakes head in one direction, and that
:43:23. > :43:25.direction is the exoneration of Adolf Hitler for the death
:43:26. > :43:30.of the Jews, then you have to say that they aren't mistakes,
:43:31. > :43:35.And that's what was so brilliant about a trial.
:43:36. > :43:38.In getting back to the film and the way that portrays the trial,
:43:39. > :43:41.it's very much that passion versus, if you like, rationality.
:43:42. > :43:44.American versus British, you have these rather buttoned up
:43:45. > :43:49.British lawyers and the American academic, who wants to do it
:43:50. > :43:52.with her heart and they want to do it with logic.
:43:53. > :43:55.Was that pretty much how the trial itself was,
:43:56. > :43:58.or is that something you wanted to bring into the script?
:43:59. > :44:01.Deborah Lipstadst was forced not to give evidence.
:44:02. > :44:07.Not only was she not allowed to give evidence by her own defence team,
:44:08. > :44:11.but also the survivors of the camps were not allowed to give evidence.
:44:12. > :44:15.I think I have a line where Richard Rampton says,
:44:16. > :44:19."What feels best, isn't what works best".
:44:20. > :44:24.And so films about the difference between self-righteous
:44:25. > :44:30.And would you take that into the political sphere now?
:44:31. > :44:35.Clearly Hillary Clinton lost against Donald Trump because she has
:44:36. > :44:49.We leave you with the work of the bad lip reading YouTube
:44:50. > :44:50.channel, who watched the inauguration on some
:44:51. > :45:13.Together we will build a bar in rural Connecticut,
:45:14. > :45:18.and we will make it a bar with a nanny, and we will make it
:45:19. > :45:22.a bar called Brown Lady, and we will make it a bar that has
:45:23. > :45:29.# When you want to make a bad day a greater day
:45:30. > :45:53.Good evening. More fog tonight, mostly on the hills, and ice will be
:45:54. > :45:54.a real concern with freezing drizzle and snow on widely subzero surfaces.