:00:09. > :00:17.To join hands, as we pick up that mantle of leadership once more. To
:00:18. > :00:19.renew our special relationship, and to recommit ourselves to the
:00:20. > :00:21.responsibility of leadership in the modern world.
:00:22. > :00:23."Haven't you noticed? Sometimes opposites attract."
:00:24. > :00:30.So said Theresa May en-route to her meeting with Donald Trump.
:00:31. > :00:33.She's been turning on the charm for senior Republicans this evening -
:00:34. > :00:34.so how will she handle the president?
:00:35. > :00:38.We'll hear from former Labour leader Ed Miliband.
:00:39. > :00:42.On the eve of summit to discuss gay sex and the clergy,
:00:43. > :00:49.we discuss the Church of England policy to pretend
:00:50. > :00:52.Tomorrow, the long awaited sequel to Trainspotting opens
:00:53. > :00:55.But what was it about that film that entranced a whole generation?
:00:56. > :00:58.It is primarily a youth book, and a youth movie.
:00:59. > :01:04.Because I would rather be, kind of, on drugs in a bedsit in my 20s
:01:05. > :01:07.than I would be sailing around the Bay of Biscay in a yacht
:01:08. > :01:26.Charming senior Republicans with a speech in Philadelphia
:01:27. > :01:29.and stressing the historic ties between the UK and the US.
:01:30. > :01:31.Her messages on leadership, free trade and shared values went
:01:32. > :01:36.Tomorrow - the diplomacy might get trickier.
:01:37. > :01:38.In the Commons before she left for Philadelphia,
:01:39. > :01:41.politicians of all stripes were queuing up to offer her advice,
:01:42. > :01:51.If she'd listened to the majority of them she would have a list
:01:52. > :01:53.of grievances in her briefcase, everything from human rights
:01:54. > :01:57.In fact, the new president has offered the hope that we might
:01:58. > :02:00.have a closer relationship than over the last eight years -
:02:01. > :02:03.after all, he wants a new trade deal and he's a big fan of Brexit.
:02:04. > :02:08.Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is here.
:02:09. > :02:16.What was the tone of her speech? It was reaching out for lot of downing
:02:17. > :02:22.-- a lot of people in Downing Street Sea as a big political opportunity
:02:23. > :02:28.in the UK, but problematic as his reputation may be, his remarks are
:02:29. > :02:32.favourable of the UK, and at the expense of Germany, President Obama
:02:33. > :02:36.praised those countries so high in his last weeks in office, they
:02:37. > :02:41.constituted an opportunity. Let's hear what she had to say. President
:02:42. > :02:46.Trump's victory, achieved in defiance of all the pundits and the
:02:47. > :02:50.polls, rooted not in the corridors of Washington but in the hopes and
:02:51. > :02:56.aspirations of working men and women across this land. You are part of
:02:57. > :03:01.this victory, in the Congress and the Senate, where you swept all
:03:02. > :03:03.before you, secured with great effort and achieved with an
:03:04. > :03:08.important message of national renewal. And because of this,
:03:09. > :03:14.because of what you have done together, the cause of that great
:03:15. > :03:21.victory that you have won, America can be stronger, greater and more
:03:22. > :03:24.confident in the years ahead. Fascinatingly there, not too many
:03:25. > :03:29.mentions of President Trump, but addressing the congressmen and women
:03:30. > :03:36.and senators directly a few times, and mentions of Nato too. It is a
:03:37. > :03:40.congressional do, this conclave, but one can see her acknowledging the
:03:41. > :03:43.complexity of the way that power is dispensed in Washington, and
:03:44. > :03:47.reaching out directly to those people and making her pitch to them
:03:48. > :03:51.as well. Of course, President Trump tomorrow. She is meeting Donald
:03:52. > :03:57.Trump tomorrow but one leader will not be next in line? It was supposed
:03:58. > :04:01.to be happening next week, President Pena Nieto of Mexico was meant to
:04:02. > :04:05.come, this would be the beginning of tough talk about trade and the wall.
:04:06. > :04:09.All of those things but people have been asking, what will happen when
:04:10. > :04:13.Trump sends one of these tweets? That is exactly what happened today.
:04:14. > :04:18.He said they may as well not come if they are not prepared to pay for the
:04:19. > :04:23.wall. A couple of hours later, in Mexico City, it was announced that
:04:24. > :04:26.the meeting was. That wrong-footed the president for a while, he
:04:27. > :04:34.appeared on live television saying that he would slap a 20% Harris on
:04:35. > :04:40.Mexican imports -- tariff. Then people around him in the White House
:04:41. > :04:44.moved back a bit, you had to put legal and other arrangements in
:04:45. > :04:50.place. We are beginning to see the first signs of someone who has the
:04:51. > :04:56.impulse to act like President Putin, dealing with the constitutions of
:04:57. > :05:03.the democracy. But, Theresa May is in there tomorrow. There is an
:05:04. > :05:07.aspect where people understand that President Obama was not that great
:05:08. > :05:11.for Britain in some ways, and this is a new opportunity to define, as
:05:12. > :05:12.she said, redefine, a special relationship.
:05:13. > :05:15.Until last week, there was a president widely esteemed
:05:16. > :05:20.in Britain who didn't exactly return the love.
:05:21. > :05:23.He removed Winston Churchill's bust from the Oval Office, couldn't
:05:24. > :05:25.forget the treatment his grandfather received in Kenya and plainly
:05:26. > :05:30.considered Germany a more important ally than Britain.
:05:31. > :05:32.As I reflect back over the last eight years,
:05:33. > :05:35.I could not ask for a steadier or more reliable partner
:05:36. > :05:42.Now, of course, there's a president who alarms or appals
:05:43. > :05:46.a great many Britons, but who, in marked contrast
:05:47. > :05:53.to Obama, is seeing Theresa May ahead of all other foreign leaders,
:05:54. > :05:56.and, it seems, couldn't be more supportive of Brexit.
:05:57. > :06:01.He doesn't seem to like the European Union.
:06:02. > :06:05.He seems to be encouraging other people to follow our example
:06:06. > :06:11.Now, a lot of people in the United Kingdom consider these
:06:12. > :06:14.things to be terrible negatives, but it does give Theresa May some
:06:15. > :06:24.It was Palmerston, and who better for this age in which we seem to be
:06:25. > :06:28.turning to 19th-century style jostling nationalisms.
:06:29. > :06:32.He said, Britain has no eternal allies and no eternal enemies.
:06:33. > :06:39.So, if it's in Britain's vital interest to cosy up
:06:40. > :06:45.The question is of course whether it's also in the interests
:06:46. > :06:51.This is a protectionist president, so any idea that he's
:06:52. > :06:56.We stand to lose our environmental protections, our food standards,
:06:57. > :06:59.our food assurances, and this will be a Trojan
:07:00. > :07:05.Britain can of course offer Trump something back in some areas.
:07:06. > :07:07.If the Donald accuses many Nato allies of being freeloaders,
:07:08. > :07:10.that's not so different to long-held a Downing Street views.
:07:11. > :07:19.Instead of planning expensive new headquarters or dreaming
:07:20. > :07:22.of a European army, what Europe needs to do now is to spend
:07:23. > :07:29.That is the best possible approach to the Trump presidency.
:07:30. > :07:31.But on so many questions, from policy towards Israel
:07:32. > :07:34.to torture, Putin or withdrawal of funding from the UN, Britain
:07:35. > :07:43.How to break the news to Trump gently?
:07:44. > :07:45.This is not going to be easy for her.
:07:46. > :07:48.She's got to steer between not behaving like a British poodle
:07:49. > :07:50.to the American president, but at the same time,
:07:51. > :07:52.creating a atmosphere in which, as she said herself,
:07:53. > :08:04.you can invest new meaning in the special relationship.
:08:05. > :08:07.These days, and we saw this during the last visit
:08:08. > :08:09.here by the Chinese president, diplomacy as demanded by many
:08:10. > :08:12.on Twitter or even from the floor of the House of Commons
:08:13. > :08:15.would involve lecturing a foreign leader on why their values
:08:16. > :08:21.Unsurprisingly, foreign leaders are no keener on that than any
:08:22. > :08:30.Tonight, Theresa May arrived in America, telling reporters
:08:31. > :08:33.frankly that any resumption of CIA "enhanced interrogation"
:08:34. > :08:41.With suggestions the two leaders may give a joint news
:08:42. > :08:43.conference tomorrow, the Prime Minister's balancing act
:08:44. > :08:48.At least, though, she can start on the basis that,
:08:49. > :08:51.since his election, Donald Trump has saved some of his kindest words
:08:52. > :08:53.for Britain, and has moved that famous bust of Churchill back
:08:54. > :09:06.In a moment, we'll speak to the former Labour Leader Ed Miliband.
:09:07. > :09:09.But first - the Daily Telegraph columnist Tim Stanley is with us.
:09:10. > :09:20.Good evening. Hello. What should Theresa May do tomorrow, should she
:09:21. > :09:25.go in all guns blazing? I think what she will do is what she is going to
:09:26. > :09:28.be doing anyway, saying one thing publicly and another privately.
:09:29. > :09:33.Publicly, she has started on a strong foot saying I'm with you, not
:09:34. > :09:38.just strategically but there is a philosophical connection between us.
:09:39. > :09:42.She rolled out lavish praise. Privately, I would not be surprised
:09:43. > :09:46.if she says to him firstly, drop the language about torture. Aside from
:09:47. > :09:50.Britain believing it immoral, illegal and wrong, it is a
:09:51. > :09:54.propaganda coup for the enemy. I expect that she will push hard on
:09:55. > :10:00.America continuing to be the leading force within Nato. I suspect what we
:10:01. > :10:03.have seen here, publicly, is not necessarily the tone behind closed
:10:04. > :10:09.doors. In that speech tonight she mentioned Nato eight times, she
:10:10. > :10:13.has strong signals, but we know that Donald Trump does not like that and
:10:14. > :10:17.is capable of turning around and saying something less than
:10:18. > :10:22.diplomatic? We do not know that yet. We are testing Trump is a president,
:10:23. > :10:28.working out of what he says publicly is what he gets on with and does.
:10:29. > :10:32.Torture is an example. In the press, we need to learn to distinguish what
:10:33. > :10:36.he is saying when he is in reality television mode, when he speaks
:10:37. > :10:41.casually, and what he does. When it comes to torture, the new head of
:10:42. > :10:45.the CIA says that he is against it, the head of defence is against it,
:10:46. > :10:49.heads of Republicans in Congress are against it. It is unlikely to
:10:50. > :10:55.happen, let's hope what he says is not what happens. And Theresa May
:10:56. > :11:02.has a huge list of grievances, is it your personal view that trumping all
:11:03. > :11:08.else... Not unintentional pun! There is this idea that Britain will get a
:11:09. > :11:13.good trade deal, does that kick everything else out the water? No,
:11:14. > :11:17.that is what she leads on and once but she has two big about what he
:11:18. > :11:25.wants. He needs us as much as we need him? Yes. He is selling himself
:11:26. > :11:29.as a great businessman but nobody ready wants to speak to him right
:11:30. > :11:34.now except the British, they are the most enthusiasts it, except perhaps
:11:35. > :11:40.the Israelis. Also, the Association with Britain carries credibility
:11:41. > :11:44.when it comes to global strategy, he can reassert that he is going to
:11:45. > :11:47.beat Nato and this is his chance to reassure the world. That is what
:11:48. > :11:52.Britain provides in a special relationship. Did you get that
:11:53. > :11:58.sense, although the inauguration was razzmatazz, did you get a sense that
:11:59. > :12:02.there was an undertow of this? That something has happened since the
:12:03. > :12:06.inauguration, there is a different mood? I don't, rhetorically he is
:12:07. > :12:10.sticking with appeasing his base. He has taken the view that he has won
:12:11. > :12:15.by getting enough states to back me, just. I want to cling on to those
:12:16. > :12:21.people so that four years I scraped through again, rather than appealing
:12:22. > :12:25.to global leadership. It is clearly America first, is it necessarily
:12:26. > :12:29.Britain second? No, I think that there is a correlation between what
:12:30. > :12:33.Trump wants to achieve and what we want to achieve. When it comes to
:12:34. > :12:38.combating Islamist terrorism, and trade. And this new philosophy. Six
:12:39. > :12:42.months ago or so, Britain was a pariah in the world, we cut
:12:43. > :12:45.ourselves off from Europe and we had a president who did not really like
:12:46. > :12:49.us and we went to the back of the queue. Suddenly, we are best mates
:12:50. > :12:50.with the leader of the world which is fantastic. Thank you.
:12:51. > :12:59.Isn't it great that the British prime ministers first in line with
:13:00. > :13:05.the new leader of the free world? Not with Donald Trump! I think that
:13:06. > :13:10.Tim is underestimating what has happened this week in him becoming
:13:11. > :13:15.president, banning refugees, endorsing torture... Hang on,
:13:16. > :13:19.endorsing torture...? It is dizzying, starting a trade war with
:13:20. > :13:24.Mexico today, listing sanctions on Saturday... This is not a normal
:13:25. > :13:29.time. Her speech was a perfectly decent one, if it had been normal
:13:30. > :13:34.times. But to align yourself so closely with his project? Which is
:13:35. > :13:38.what she did. I think that was a mistake. If Ed Miliband was Prime
:13:39. > :13:43.Minister, would you have gone? And, speaking to senior Republicans,
:13:44. > :13:48.would... I probably would not have been speaking to senior Republicans!
:13:49. > :13:52.What would your line have been? Let me put it this way, I prefer Angela
:13:53. > :13:56.Merkel to Theresa May in how this is being handled. Think about what
:13:57. > :13:59.Angela Merkel did the day after the presidential election. She said that
:14:00. > :14:03.a partnership with America is important but on the basis of
:14:04. > :14:06.particular norms and values, on human rights, commitment to equality
:14:07. > :14:15.and things which are important. You don't take Tim Stanley's point? This
:14:16. > :14:19.is mood music for a particular audience? Signals matter, Trump only
:14:20. > :14:23.respects strength, and they matter to a reputation around the world.
:14:24. > :14:28.Let me take issue with one thing in that film, and what Tim said,
:14:29. > :14:32.President Obama... What is it about this sudden denigration of President
:14:33. > :14:38.Obama? As Leader of the Opposition, are used to think that he has a
:14:39. > :14:42.fantastic relationship with President Obama, David Cameron. I
:14:43. > :14:46.was jealous! Suddenly, President Obama is cast as the enemy of
:14:47. > :14:49.Britain... But let's be clear, during that debate on the EU
:14:50. > :14:54.referendum, Barack Obama said quite clearly that there would be no
:14:55. > :14:59.special treatment. But he took a position on Brexit, I think it was a
:15:00. > :15:03.bad thing or a good thing, personally he said we need a strong
:15:04. > :15:06.Europe and Britain would make Europe stronger. I think the notion that we
:15:07. > :15:11.had an enemy in the White House and now we have a friend, on this trade
:15:12. > :15:14.deal point, it is really important, people may not realise but those
:15:15. > :15:19.tariffs we have with the USA are incredibly low already. What worries
:15:20. > :15:24.me about this idea of a trade deal is that it goes to nontariff
:15:25. > :15:28.barriers. That means regulation. Around health care, the environment,
:15:29. > :15:32.employee rights. They have less regulation than us. So, I think this
:15:33. > :15:36.trade deal is really dangerous, it's a Trojan horse where we seem to be
:15:37. > :15:42.locking ourselves in Donald Trump's boot. We actually haven't, Theresa
:15:43. > :15:49.May was quite careful. I think it is right what Mark said, when it comes
:15:50. > :15:53.to going and lecturing other people, we all have memories. We have
:15:54. > :15:56.memories of Gordon Brown going to China and expecting to hear great
:15:57. > :16:00.things about liberty and freedom in China, was that behind closed doors
:16:01. > :16:05.gritter muck it was not in public. I thought that you would mention Tony
:16:06. > :16:09.Blair and George Bush. That ended pretty badly... There is a lesson
:16:10. > :16:13.about that. Our alliances with America should be based on values
:16:14. > :16:16.and those what we hold in common, not simply on the idea that we want
:16:17. > :16:20.to be at the front of a notional queue. But the idea that you
:16:21. > :16:25.ideological agree with every leader around the world caused nonsense.
:16:26. > :16:30.You need to make priorities. I wonder if what you do, you say, if
:16:31. > :16:33.you are going to ban Muslims from certain countries, we will not work
:16:34. > :16:38.together. If you consider torture, we will not work together. If you
:16:39. > :16:42.deny climate change, we went work together. Really? I think it is
:16:43. > :16:46.time, this is about self-interest. Let me be clear, it is
:16:47. > :17:00.self-interest, that we are strong defending climate change. It is in
:17:01. > :17:02.our interests to defend a two state solution for Israel and Palestine,
:17:03. > :17:05.Donald Trump wants to overturn it it seems. There were good notes in
:17:06. > :17:07.Theresa May's speech tonight, she had to mention those things but that
:17:08. > :17:09.was not the main thrust of the speech. Britain voted for Brexit,
:17:10. > :17:13.Donald Trump supports it... There is one point of agreement. But he wants
:17:14. > :17:20.Nigel Farage to be ambassador. Goodness me! What hinges on this
:17:21. > :17:24.trade deal... If you think it is a get out of jail card for any
:17:25. > :17:27.economic problems you might get for Brexit, maybe you think it is worth
:17:28. > :17:31.us locking ourselves in the boot. I am very sceptical and let's not
:17:32. > :17:34.forget, he is a protectionist. They are very sceptical of trade Guilds
:17:35. > :17:39.and he's about to impose tariffs on Mexico. -- trade Guilds. Let's go
:17:40. > :17:45.back to that question and conversation about torture. You said
:17:46. > :17:48.it would be dependent on the chief and CIA... If you were Prime
:17:49. > :17:52.Minister, would you, at this moment, allow British agents to share
:17:53. > :17:58.intelligence with American agents, if there was any chance of torture?
:17:59. > :18:07.No, we can't beat complicit in torture, absolutely not. We need
:18:08. > :18:13.strong words and signals. Our reputation around the world matters.
:18:14. > :18:19.Foreign leaders will be looking at what other faults tonight. Let's
:18:20. > :18:24.talk a little bit again about Brexit and labour, Labour seems to be in
:18:25. > :18:30.disarray again, we have had eight resignation from the Shadow Cabinet.
:18:31. > :18:33.Will there ever be any kind of peace within Labour when there are two
:18:34. > :18:38.distinct positions on Brexit. I'm not sure it is about peace, Labour
:18:39. > :18:43.is wrestling with the difficult issue which is that we represent
:18:44. > :18:47.lots of Remain voters and Leave voters. I think we should accept
:18:48. > :18:53.that the exit is going to happen, but we should hold the Government to
:18:54. > :18:56.account for the kind of deal, and let me just say this one point,
:18:57. > :19:01.because people may not have focused on this. The vote and amendments
:19:02. > :19:04.that we have to this article 50 bill matter, and a matter for this reason
:19:05. > :19:09.most of all. What kind of odour we get at the end? Do we get a vote
:19:10. > :19:12.which is take it or leave it, either for light of the European Union
:19:13. > :19:17.without a deal, or do we get a vote that is meaningful, which is what
:19:18. > :19:20.Keir Starmer and Jeremy Corbyn and others are pushing for, and they are
:19:21. > :19:25.right to do so. Ed Miliband, thank you very much.
:19:26. > :19:29.the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's doesn't want his MPs to block
:19:30. > :19:33.Trouble is - not all his MPs are playing along with that plan.
:19:34. > :19:35.I am joined by our political editor Nick Watt.
:19:36. > :19:39.It will be a clear decision that we want all of our MPs
:19:40. > :19:41.to support the Article 50 vote when it comes up next week.
:19:42. > :19:43.But no commitment to a three line whip?
:19:44. > :19:49.My constituents voted to remain in the European Union.
:19:50. > :19:51.I am leaning towards voting against Article 50 because I'm
:19:52. > :19:55.And if I have to resign my shadow ministerial position
:19:56. > :19:57.because of the stance I take, it would be unfortunate,
:19:58. > :20:03.but I am here as the MP for Hampstead and Kilburn.
:20:04. > :20:10.I'm joined now by our political editor Nick Watt and the MPs
:20:11. > :20:14.Amsterdam Kilburn did indeed resign. That's right, so Jeremy Corbyn faced
:20:15. > :20:17.a mini rebellion today, at one point it looked like it might reach into
:20:18. > :20:20.his inner circle of supporters with thoughts that Clive Lewis, the
:20:21. > :20:22.Shadow Business Secretary, might resign, but in the end he stayed
:20:23. > :20:39.put, and tulips -- Tulip Siddiq said the she would
:20:40. > :20:44.go. And the transport Minister has told the Cambridge News that he will
:20:45. > :20:48.be standing by his constituents, 75% of whom voted Remain, and he will
:20:49. > :20:53.live with the consequences. So what does this mean for Labour? This is a
:20:54. > :20:57.rare rebellion where the leadership has some sympathy with the rebels,
:20:58. > :21:02.and that is not just because Jeremy Corbyn campaigned to remain in the
:21:03. > :21:09.European Union, though not with much enthusiasm, but this says that they
:21:10. > :21:14.are in eight unique position, two thirds of voters supported Remain,
:21:15. > :21:22.but two thirds of Labour MPs represent constituents that voted
:21:23. > :21:28.Leave, so there is talk about how opinion was divided, and we can
:21:29. > :21:32.expect some defying of the leadership, but it may not take the
:21:33. > :21:37.traditional form of the sack, and it shows a dilemma for a party that is
:21:38. > :21:39.struggling to come to terms with Brexit Britain. Thank you very much
:21:40. > :21:41.indeed. Now, in this age of alternative
:21:42. > :21:44.facts and fake news, we thought it might be useful to provide
:21:45. > :21:46.you with something rather more reliable -
:21:47. > :21:48.a non-fake fact of the day. We've just been talking
:21:49. > :21:50.about Tulip Siddiq's resignation from the front bench
:21:51. > :21:53.of the Labour Party, so that she could vote
:21:54. > :21:58.against Article 50 - in line with her constituency's big
:21:59. > :22:00.Remain vote, and perhaps But that's not something that should
:22:01. > :22:06.bother most Labour MPs. Only one in three of them
:22:07. > :22:08.are in constituencies estimated And more than half of those MPs
:22:09. > :22:20.have a majority greater than 10,000. In other words, most Labour MPs can
:22:21. > :22:23.vote for Article 50 without worrying about misrepresenting
:22:24. > :22:24.their constituencies - and most of those that can't
:22:25. > :22:27.probably don't need to worry too much about losing
:22:28. > :22:32.their seats over it. Tomorrow the Church of England
:22:33. > :22:35.is likely to come up with a policy for sexual relationships among gay
:22:36. > :22:38.clergy which as far as we understand will operate on the basis
:22:39. > :22:40.of 'don't ask don't tell'.. In other words 'what the eye doesn't
:22:41. > :22:52.see the heart doesn't grieve'. In many ways, the Church of
:22:53. > :22:56.England's attitude to sexuality has changed radically in the last
:22:57. > :23:01.century, and in many others it has stayed exactly the same. Today, the
:23:02. > :23:06.church is fond of highlighting its important role in the Wolfenden
:23:07. > :23:11.report in 1957 which was key to the partial decriminalisation of,
:23:12. > :23:16.sexuality. But although several bishops gave public support to the
:23:17. > :23:21.new law in 1967, it was not necessary evidence of a liberal
:23:22. > :23:27.attitude. The then Archbishop of Canterbury Michael Ramsey stated,
:23:28. > :23:34.there will be no declaring that homosexual practices are a correct
:23:35. > :23:38.use of sex. A report in 1991 cemented the church is modern issues
:23:39. > :23:41.toward sexuality, reinforcing Christian attitudes, and stated that
:23:42. > :23:54.engaging in gay activity, or as they called it, homophile activity, was
:23:55. > :24:03.not part of the clergy. But they also said, if we are faithful to our
:24:04. > :24:05.Lord then disagreement of the proper expression of homosexual love will
:24:06. > :24:09.never be a rejection of the homosexual person. The Lambeth
:24:10. > :24:16.conference reaffirmed the ban on the blessing of same-sex couples. When
:24:17. > :24:19.civil partnerships were legalised in 2004, the house of Bishops declared
:24:20. > :24:25.this wasn't incompatible with holy orders, again on the condition of
:24:26. > :24:29.celibacy. Gay marriage was legalised in 2013, creating the so-called
:24:30. > :24:35.quadruple lock which made it illegal for the Church of England to perform
:24:36. > :24:38.same-sex marriage is. The Pilling report of the following year stopped
:24:39. > :24:43.short of endorsing same-sex marriage, but recommended that the
:24:44. > :24:47.church conduct ceremonies that would be marriages in all but name. In
:24:48. > :24:51.response, the house of Bishops called for a process of shared
:24:52. > :24:53.conversations in a divided church. The results of that two-year process
:24:54. > :24:55.will be unveiled tomorrow. Joining us in the studio
:24:56. > :24:58.to discuss this further are Father Andrew Foreshew-Cain,
:24:59. > :25:01.Vicar of St Mary and All Souls Church in Kilburn and Susie Leafe,
:25:02. > :25:03.Director of Reform, an Evangelical
:25:04. > :25:13.Anglican Organisation Good evening to you both. What is
:25:14. > :25:20.the proposal to be? We really don't know. You are both in the Senedd.
:25:21. > :25:25.The house of Bishops will make a statement tomorrow. The paper will
:25:26. > :25:35.be released tomorrow, that is all we know. And your understanding will
:25:36. > :25:42.be? There has been a certain amount of leaking, so I think it is going
:25:43. > :25:46.to be don't ask, don't tell, so don't ask them, and you want to know
:25:47. > :25:51.about it. What you make of that? Shabby, dirty and shameful, I think.
:25:52. > :25:55.And what about you? The Church of England was looking for leadership
:25:56. > :26:01.from the house of Bishops, and if that is what they have decided to
:26:02. > :26:06.do, then it is just they have avoided all possibility. And we can
:26:07. > :26:09.both agree on that, both sides of the debate agree that that is
:26:10. > :26:13.failure from our leadership. What would you like to see? I would like
:26:14. > :26:16.to see that as a Christian church following Christ we would be putting
:26:17. > :26:19.forward a positive view of marriage being between one man and one woman
:26:20. > :26:24.for life, talking about how wonderful that is as a way to
:26:25. > :26:29.flourish of individuals and for society. So you are quite clear
:26:30. > :26:32.about this. You are not in favour of gay marriage per se, and not in
:26:33. > :26:35.favour of gay marriage in the church, but if you had to have gay
:26:36. > :26:39.marriage in the church, you would only have it if it was celibate? I
:26:40. > :26:47.don't think you can have a celibate gay marriage. I think that God is
:26:48. > :26:51.very clear in the word in the Bible, Jesus himself as he was asked
:26:52. > :26:55.questions about sexuality referred back to Genesis, referred back to
:26:56. > :27:00.the teaching of the Judaeo-Christian worldview, which is that marriage is
:27:01. > :27:04.between one man and one woman for life. So you share a place in the
:27:05. > :27:10.Church of England with someone who actually doesn't believe... That I
:27:11. > :27:15.married? That you should be gay in the first place, but no, not that
:27:16. > :27:20.you are married. I think she would want all gay and lesbian people to
:27:21. > :27:23.be celibate, and wouldn't mess necessarily approve our
:27:24. > :27:29.relationships. There is within the Church of England quite a lot of
:27:30. > :27:32.diversity around the sexuality and theology of marriage, and one of the
:27:33. > :27:36.problems is that the bishops if they have done what rumour says they have
:27:37. > :27:39.done are not acknowledging that diversity of opinion, and that
:27:40. > :27:42.diversity that is reflected in amongst themselves which is why they
:27:43. > :27:47.have not been able to show proper leadership. Andrew is in a gay
:27:48. > :27:54.marriage, he is a member of the clergy. And he is not celibate, so
:27:55. > :27:58.therefore, is he a sinner? I think we are all sinners, that is the
:27:59. > :28:03.teaching of the church, that all of us are sinners. But as far as you're
:28:04. > :28:10.concerned, Jesus does not promote or believe in the idea of
:28:11. > :28:13.homosexuality? Yes, absolutely, we are all sinners. And how can you
:28:14. > :28:18.remain in the Church of England? Surely in a way you are living a
:28:19. > :28:22.lie? There has always been legitimate theological debate on
:28:23. > :28:26.this, and the most recent survey in YouGov said the largest majority of
:28:27. > :28:31.Anglicans is now in favour of supporting same-sex marriage...
:28:32. > :28:36.That's not quite... Can I finish? The report is clear that they are
:28:37. > :28:43.not people who are necessarily part of the church... One part was those
:28:44. > :28:46.self identifying as Anglicans, supporting gay relationship, and
:28:47. > :28:50.then there are specifically those who attended church, those who
:28:51. > :28:54.attended also said they supported same-sex relationships, so can I
:28:55. > :28:58.finish? The reason we stay in the Church of England is because we are
:28:59. > :29:03.faithful Anglicans, and this is our church, and I would like to see a
:29:04. > :29:06.church in which there was a mixed economy, where people like me are
:29:07. > :29:11.free to hold the beliefs that we have, to celebrate the relationships
:29:12. > :29:19.of straight people and gay people, and people like news -- Susie are
:29:20. > :29:24.welcome to stay, to. Would you go to a service conducted by Andrew? I
:29:25. > :29:30.can't imagine a situation in which I would, no. And yet why, he is a
:29:31. > :29:33.minister in your church. He is living contrary to the teaching of
:29:34. > :29:39.the church as well as the teaching of the Bible. Would it not be more
:29:40. > :29:43.honest for you to change church? No, I am an Anglican and I have been an
:29:44. > :29:46.Anglican for 30 years. Why should I leave my church? The Church of
:29:47. > :29:51.England is a broad church. One of the problems at the moment is there
:29:52. > :29:57.is a done I'll of the diversity of the church. So you can't be
:29:58. > :30:00.honest... I am honest, I am married and never body knows I am married.
:30:01. > :30:04.The bishops cannot be honest about the division berries within their
:30:05. > :30:10.own ranks on this issue. I think it is difficult for me to hear you say
:30:11. > :30:13.what it means to be Anglican. If we look at the founding documents of
:30:14. > :30:18.the Anglican Church, if we look at our laws, if we look at the vast
:30:19. > :30:24.majority of the Anglican Communion, they are all lined up absolutely to
:30:25. > :30:28.say that marriage is between one man and one woman for life, because that
:30:29. > :30:33.is what God teaches, and that is what gives a life of flourishing...
:30:34. > :30:37.Even if I accepted that it was inappropriate to be married, which I
:30:38. > :30:40.don't, this is one aspect of the whole of my personality and the
:30:41. > :30:45.whole of my life and ministry, and that does not negate my theological
:30:46. > :30:48.understanding of what it is to be the member of the Church of England
:30:49. > :30:50.and the reasons why I am there. I would like you both to pause now,
:30:51. > :30:53.thank you very much indeed. And we'll be continuing this
:30:54. > :30:55.discussion on Facebook live via the BBC Newsnight Facebook page
:30:56. > :30:58.right after we come off air, and you'll also be able
:30:59. > :31:01.to put your questions to our two The long awaited sequel
:31:02. > :31:04.to Trainspotting opens The world premiere in Edinburgh
:31:05. > :31:09.on Sunday saw Renton, Sickboy, Begbie and Spud stravaiging down
:31:10. > :31:11.the orange Trainspotting carpet The original 1996 film
:31:12. > :31:17.was a raw, searing, drug- ridden ride, as much
:31:18. > :31:19.about desperation as exuberance that As we get ready to meet
:31:20. > :31:26.the friends again, older, more raddled and certainly not
:31:27. > :31:28.wiser, what was it that made Trainspotting
:31:29. > :31:30.an overnight sensation? This report contains violence,
:31:31. > :31:33.flashing lights and very I'm going to start with
:31:34. > :31:45.Trainspotting, first because it is an unusual powerful
:31:46. > :31:48.and impressive film, and second because it will probably
:31:49. > :31:53.cause a lot of fuss. I think it's a great tragedy that
:31:54. > :31:56.young people are going to be Young people may be influenced
:31:57. > :32:04.to experiment with hard drugs. Choose fixed interest
:32:05. > :32:05.mortgage repayments. With a dialogue largely made up
:32:06. > :32:11.of short words beginning with F, S and C, and much injected,
:32:12. > :32:14.it accused of being at best nonjudgemental and at worst
:32:15. > :32:20.endorsing heroin use. It is primarily a youth
:32:21. > :32:23.book, and a youth movie. Because I would rather be, kind of,
:32:24. > :32:27.on drugs in a bedsit in my 20s than I would be sailing around
:32:28. > :32:30.the Bay of Biscay in a yacht Trainspotting exploded
:32:31. > :32:40.onto the screen. There has never been
:32:41. > :32:44.anything like it. It was an anthem for youth,
:32:45. > :32:49.an exhilarating, defiant screen. It was about friendship
:32:50. > :32:51.and belonging, pain and loss, laced with the blackest of humour,
:32:52. > :32:53.and it was about surviving But the outrage only served
:32:54. > :33:03.to reinforce the film's appeal, and make it one of the most lauded
:33:04. > :33:06.British movies of all time. The novel became this kind
:33:07. > :33:13.of classic great backpack novel that young people that were touring
:33:14. > :33:16.the world wanted to own and have, and it was like going back
:33:17. > :33:19.to the 60s and 70s where an LP or an album said something
:33:20. > :33:24.about your identity. Like Kerouac in the 50s,
:33:25. > :33:29.but for that generation it was Trainspotting,
:33:30. > :33:31.that was the one you would have in your bag as you were
:33:32. > :33:33.travelling, whatever. If I'm prepared to take
:33:34. > :33:36.a chance, I might just get Witty, adventurous,
:33:37. > :33:40.passionate, loving, loyal. A little bit crazy,
:33:41. > :33:46.a little bit mad. It came along at
:33:47. > :33:51.the exact right time. You know, I think every generation
:33:52. > :33:58.has its music and has its movie, and Trainspotting just was that
:33:59. > :34:03.movie, and it came at a time that Britpop had really
:34:04. > :34:09.started to explode, and it was like a marriage
:34:10. > :34:18.made in heaven. The other thing that can't be
:34:19. > :34:20.separated from the screenplay or the acting in Trainspotting
:34:21. > :34:22.is the soundtrack. It was such a banging
:34:23. > :34:30.soundtrack for that film. Again, we never really had any
:34:31. > :34:34.money, so it was basically asking Well, I think Iggy Pop was the only
:34:35. > :34:45.one we had to pay for, really. I think he was very pleased to be
:34:46. > :34:50.mentioned in the book and referenced, and he realy liked
:34:51. > :34:55.the book, said he was quite favourable to help us
:34:56. > :34:59.out as well, you know. Danny had the relationship
:35:00. > :35:02.with Leftfield and Underworld through Shallow Grave,
:35:03. > :35:04.and I knew people like Primal Scream and Blur
:35:05. > :35:17.and Jarvis Cocker and all that. Much different the second
:35:18. > :35:19.time around, we are kind The last 15 years, everybody has
:35:20. > :35:23.been, if you do Trainspotting 2, One of the funny thing is for me
:35:24. > :35:30.about Trainspotting was that Edinburgh people saw
:35:31. > :35:32.Glasgow as no mean city, in the nation's capital,
:35:33. > :35:35.the Athens of the North, and behind the elegant
:35:36. > :35:37.Georgian facades and douce suburbs was a fetid,
:35:38. > :35:39.chaotic otherworld of drug-addled That lassie got glassed,
:35:40. > :35:52.and no cunt leaves here till we find The one that really resonated for me
:35:53. > :36:04.was the character that became Begbie, because every Scottish
:36:05. > :36:07.working-class housing scheme has a sociopath that you are more
:36:08. > :36:12.scared than the enemy. You go to away games
:36:13. > :36:15.at the football, and you are more scared of the guys on the train
:36:16. > :36:18.than the guys you will meet There are two parallel Edinburghs,
:36:19. > :36:22.there is the Edinburgh that is about the festival
:36:23. > :36:28.and the Scotsman evening news, and a blocked drain in Morningside
:36:29. > :36:31.and all that, and the Dutch elm disease that will transform Princes
:36:32. > :36:41.Street and how horrible verses. disease that will transform Princes
:36:42. > :36:43.Street and how horrible this is. Whereas you had this
:36:44. > :36:45.massive HIV epidemic, the explosion in heroin
:36:46. > :36:48.which was all to do with mass unemployment basically,
:36:49. > :36:50.and people who worked in traditional industries no longer
:36:51. > :36:51.having anything to do. So the drugs came in,
:36:52. > :36:54.and they won by default, You are in a world that has
:36:55. > :37:00.education opportunities, travel opportunities,
:37:01. > :37:01.cultural opportunities, If you are going to take
:37:02. > :37:06.something like heroin, you're going to flirt with it,
:37:07. > :37:09.it is not a serious thing. But if you are going to take
:37:10. > :37:13.something like heroin and you've got none of these things,
:37:14. > :37:16.there is nothing else to go to, no plan B, nothing to jump off too,
:37:17. > :37:19.then you are going to be stuck with that relationship
:37:20. > :37:21.for a long time. It's probably not as consequential
:37:22. > :37:24.to have a heroin habit now. There are so many ways of treating
:37:25. > :37:32.it that there wasn't back then. Sick Boy, Begbie, Renton and Spud
:37:33. > :37:39.are back, and it's not You are the emotional
:37:40. > :37:48.heart of this film. That's very nice to hear you say
:37:49. > :37:54.that, but I think all... I haven't seen the finished version,
:37:55. > :37:57.but the version I saw, every character made me cry,
:37:58. > :37:59.and I was moved by every It's a really
:38:00. > :38:03.unexpectedly moving film. It's sort of not about
:38:04. > :38:10.recapturing something, but looking back on it,
:38:11. > :38:13.in a way, and I think all of the characters are doing that,
:38:14. > :38:19.there is a sort of nostalgia for their use, for that time,
:38:20. > :38:22.and somehow John has managed to write in a little nostalgia
:38:23. > :38:24.for the movie itself, I don't know how he has done that,
:38:25. > :38:35.but it is very clever. We on the other hand
:38:36. > :38:54.are colonised by wankers. Can't even find a decent
:38:55. > :38:57.culture to be colonised by. I think that without putting too
:38:58. > :38:59.much weight on this, I think Trainspotting
:39:00. > :39:01.was the beginning of a reawakening of Scotland, of a Scotland
:39:02. > :39:05.on a new-found self-confidence, of a Scotland finding a voice,
:39:06. > :39:07.of a Scotland believing that it didn't need to repeat the tropes
:39:08. > :39:11.or the memes of other cultures, and it could speak
:39:12. > :39:17.profoundly in its own voice. But that's not all that changed
:39:18. > :39:21.in the last 20 years. Youth culture's been
:39:22. > :39:23.eradicated in Britain now. Because of the Internet,
:39:24. > :39:28.it doesn't get a chance to grow I think it is changing
:39:29. > :39:33.a little bit now. There are signs that it's coming
:39:34. > :39:40.back, like grime, and East London, South London has one of the few
:39:41. > :39:43.indigenous youth cultures to emerge in Britain in the last
:39:44. > :39:46.kind of ten or 15 years. I don't really believe that a book
:39:47. > :39:48.like Trainspotting would be For all sorts of reasons, I think
:39:49. > :39:58.because of the content of it, because it is in a relatively
:39:59. > :40:02.inaccessible Scottish vernacular. There are so many different reasons,
:40:03. > :40:04.both moral culture and commercial, that would conspire against a book
:40:05. > :40:07.like that getting For the millions who loved
:40:08. > :40:31.the book and then the film, and who have waited 20 years to find
:40:32. > :40:49.out what happened to them all, That's just about it before tonight.
:40:50. > :40:54.We were talking about the resignation of Tulip Siddiq. She
:40:55. > :40:58.Leca we said that she was in the Shadow Cabinet, she was actually a
:40:59. > :41:00.shadow minister. Apologies to anyone who thought she was promoted before
:41:01. > :41:01.she resigned. If these cold winter nights
:41:02. > :41:05.are making you gloomy, then perhaps snuggling up in front
:41:06. > :41:07.of Newsnight is not the answer. Research from Goldsmiths University
:41:08. > :41:09.suggests those who partake in naturism are happier
:41:10. > :41:13.with their bodies and happier