27/01/2017

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:00:07. > :00:13.The world has had a week to get used to President Trump. From the

:00:14. > :00:16.inauguration last Friday to today's press conference with Theresa May.

:00:17. > :00:24.Everybody knew there would have to take him seriously. Is it now we

:00:25. > :00:28.also took him literally? I think a lot of the voters who voted for

:00:29. > :00:39.Trump take him seriously, but not literally. It is going to be only

:00:40. > :00:43.America first. America first. People took him seriously, the press never

:00:44. > :00:47.did. You know, the essence of what he was about was, I'm going to

:00:48. > :00:51.change. Whether it was building a wall, which he really... You know,

:00:52. > :01:00.I'm not so sure that is really going to happen. It will begin immediate

:01:01. > :01:05.construction, a border wall. Supporters took him seriously, but

:01:06. > :01:07.not literally. Does it work? Does torture work? The answer is, yes,

:01:08. > :01:16.absolutely. Tonight, a specially extended

:01:17. > :01:18.Newsnight exploring the first seven days of Donald

:01:19. > :01:21.Trump's presidency and what they Just over 12 months ago,

:01:22. > :01:27.the British Parliament debated banning Donald Trump from this

:01:28. > :01:30.country in response to the perceived toxicity

:01:31. > :01:35.of his electioneering rhetoric. Today, the British Prime Minister -

:01:36. > :01:37.who, as Home Secretary described some of that rhetoric as "divisive,

:01:38. > :01:40.unhelpful and wrong" - arrived in Washington

:01:41. > :01:42.and invited him to come Indeed, at a joint press

:01:43. > :01:47.conference a few hours ago, both were keen to portray

:01:48. > :01:49.the beginning But she mentioned the so-called

:01:50. > :01:55.special relationship eight times in a speech to Republican

:01:56. > :01:58.politicians yesterday, while today Trump's White House

:01:59. > :02:01.managed to misspell her name three So just how special is that

:02:02. > :02:10.relationship and just how much of a political risk is Theresa May

:02:11. > :02:13.taking by swallowing any personal distaste and hoping that a President

:02:14. > :02:18.who delights in bellowing "America First" might somehow be

:02:19. > :02:22.persuaded to put Britain second? Newsnight's David

:02:23. > :02:34.Grossman was watching. How presidents and prime ministers

:02:35. > :02:39.interact matters. A great deal of effort goes into making sure they

:02:40. > :02:43.hit it off. Some relationships, however, barely register. Others

:02:44. > :02:47.become central to both. Into which category this latest iteration will

:02:48. > :02:53.fall, well, today we began to find out. Nothing was allowed to get in

:02:54. > :02:58.the way, not even the oval office lamp. An executive order, and it was

:02:59. > :03:03.gone. Back in the room, the bust of Churchill. This is the original.

:03:04. > :03:10.After a private meeting in the Oval Office, a press conference, where

:03:11. > :03:16.the complement is really flowed. Today, the United States renews our

:03:17. > :03:22.deep bond with Britain, military, financial, cultural and political.

:03:23. > :03:26.One of the great bonds. We pledge our lasting support to this most

:03:27. > :03:28.special relationship. I am delighted to be able to congratulate you on

:03:29. > :03:35.what was a stunning election victory. As you say, the invitation

:03:36. > :03:38.is an indication of the strength and importance of the special

:03:39. > :03:44.relationship. The relationship that exists between our countries, based

:03:45. > :03:47.on the bonds of history, family, kinship and common interests. The

:03:48. > :03:52.positivity was rather interrupted by the questions from reporters. Two

:03:53. > :03:57.picked by the President, two by Theresa May. You have said before

:03:58. > :04:03.that torture works, you have praised Russia, you have said you want to

:04:04. > :04:10.ban some most -- Muslims from coming to America. You have suggested there

:04:11. > :04:15.should be punishment for abortions. This was your choice for a question?

:04:16. > :04:19.There goes this relationship! It is 205 years since the British set fire

:04:20. > :04:22.to the White House. Theresa May had been advised to do something similar

:04:23. > :04:28.today. Instead, her softer approach appears to have achieved results,

:04:29. > :04:35.reassurance on the key military alliance. On defence and security

:04:36. > :04:37.Corporation, we are united in the reclamation of Nato as the Bill

:04:38. > :04:44.Walker of our defence, and we have confirmed our commitment to this

:04:45. > :04:48.Alliance. You have confirmed you are 100% behind Nato. Mr Trump also said

:04:49. > :04:52.it was too early to talk about dropping sanctions on Russia. On

:04:53. > :04:57.torture, Mr Trump is on record as saying he thinks it works.

:04:58. > :05:01.Crucially, he says his new Defence Secretary does not. I don't

:05:02. > :05:06.necessarily agree, but I would tell you that he would override, because

:05:07. > :05:10.I am giving him that power. He is an expert, he is highly respected, he

:05:11. > :05:14.is the general's general. There was the inevitable question of personal

:05:15. > :05:24.chemistry. The hard-working daughter of a vicar, the brush TV extrovert,

:05:25. > :05:28.have you found anything in common? I am not as brash as you might think,

:05:29. > :05:31.I think we are going to get along very well. It is interesting, I am a

:05:32. > :05:38.people person, I think you are all so. I can often tell how I get along

:05:39. > :05:42.with some of the very early, and I believe we will have a fantastic

:05:43. > :05:46.relationship. The President's people judging powers let him down when he

:05:47. > :05:50.tried to hold the Prime Minister's hand as he walked her to her car.

:05:51. > :05:51.Aside from a little awkwardness, both sides would have been happy

:05:52. > :05:53.with today. Our political editor,

:05:54. > :06:08.Nick Watt was watching that He joins me now. Will they be having

:06:09. > :06:12.a small glass of sherry in Theresa May's camp? They are ecstatic, this

:06:13. > :06:16.visit was fraught with risks for Theresa May. Many Tories said she

:06:17. > :06:20.was rushing over to Washington to soon after the inauguration. In

:06:21. > :06:24.Number 10, they are pointing to two big games, in the first place, that

:06:25. > :06:28.commitment, according to Theresa May, that Donald Trump is 100%

:06:29. > :06:32.behind Nato. Only a few weeks ago he said Nato is obsolete in its current

:06:33. > :06:39.form. Crucially, she said that Nato will have to meet concerns,

:06:40. > :06:43.everybody has to pay their fair share and it has to be reconfigured

:06:44. > :06:49.to tackle terrorism. The second big gain they are taking his big support

:06:50. > :06:53.for a UK - US free trade agreement. Interestingly, those two were voiced

:06:54. > :07:00.by Theresa May, and not by Donald Trump. Her tactics have done the job

:07:01. > :07:04.in the short-term, but necessarily delivering in the long term? Theresa

:07:05. > :07:06.May is essentially doing what every UK Prime Minister since Harold

:07:07. > :07:10.Wilson and Jim Callaghan has done, get close to the US President. She

:07:11. > :07:15.says she's doing it in her way and giving herself some wriggle room.

:07:16. > :07:22.She believes Tony Blair perhaps appeared to write a blank check for

:07:23. > :07:25.George Bush after 9/11. On Russia, she made it clear she disagrees with

:07:26. > :07:29.Donald Trump and thinks that sanctions should remain in place. He

:07:30. > :07:34.was noncommittal on that. Kelly and Conway was saying maybe the US would

:07:35. > :07:39.be lifting sanctions. Think what she got on Nato. Essentially, Donald

:07:40. > :07:47.Trump has given that commitment and she can say to EU partners and Nato

:07:48. > :07:52.partners in Europe, who have doubts about the UK heading off to the US,

:07:53. > :07:56.she is able to say she got a commitment that he is 100% behind

:07:57. > :07:59.it. You may do well on the substance, but in the end it is

:08:00. > :08:05.decided, often come on the optics, and what will be the abiding memory

:08:06. > :08:07.of the visit? The handshake, the holding hands.

:08:08. > :08:13.Dr Leslie Vinjamuri is an expert in the transatlantic partnership.

:08:14. > :08:18.Professionally, this must be a fraught time for you. What is the

:08:19. > :08:23.transatlantic partnership? It has been an interesting visit today. It

:08:24. > :08:27.was a meeting that could have gone very badly. But I think it is

:08:28. > :08:33.exactly right to say the optics, the symbolism of the visit have so far

:08:34. > :08:37.seemed to be very important. The transatlantic relationship, what is

:08:38. > :08:42.it? Historically, it has been a commitment by the US and the United

:08:43. > :08:44.Kingdom to promote and secure the Liberal International order. This is

:08:45. > :08:48.what everybody has been worried about that Donald Trump is walking

:08:49. > :08:55.back, in very significant and dramatic ways, from the liberal into

:08:56. > :08:59.-- international order. Theresa May seemed to be talking about

:09:00. > :09:02.globalism, of holding the liberal international order, when Donald

:09:03. > :09:06.Trump seemed to be running away from that at a rate of knots? Not only

:09:07. > :09:09.was the press conference interesting, but last night, when

:09:10. > :09:12.she spoke to the Republicans, she made a point of saying the United

:09:13. > :09:16.States and the United Kingdom would work together to promote democracy.

:09:17. > :09:20.They would not do it by intervening in the internal affairs of other

:09:21. > :09:25.states. It was a global agenda, a liberal agenda. It was, in one

:09:26. > :09:28.sense, in another sense, the American media seemed a lot keener

:09:29. > :09:32.to ask questions about Mexico and Russia than they did about the other

:09:33. > :09:35.half of the so-called special relationship? That is right. There

:09:36. > :09:39.are all sorts of issues. The question now that we need to

:09:40. > :09:42.remember is that Donald Trump was very respectful, but there is a

:09:43. > :09:46.sense in which you always think that maybe he is humouring whoever he is

:09:47. > :09:50.speaking to. The rubber hits the road in the days and weeks to come.

:09:51. > :09:55.Will the special relationship really mean much to Donald Trump? Very hard

:09:56. > :09:58.to know. In the great scheme of things, for all of his Scottish

:09:59. > :10:05.ancestry and what have you, how high up on his to-do list will be giving

:10:06. > :10:12.Britain something? You know, I do think that Donald Trump is committed

:10:13. > :10:16.to a US- UK bilateral trade deal. What amounts to is minuscule

:10:17. > :10:19.compared to what Theresa May needs to secure from European partners. At

:10:20. > :10:25.the end of the day, Donald Trump as a set of priorities and very few of

:10:26. > :10:26.them have a lot to do with the UK, right? So, we have to watch this

:10:27. > :10:29.space. Thank you very much indeed. The Conservative MEP -

:10:30. > :10:39.and arch-Brexiteer - You get described as that all the

:10:40. > :10:42.time. This wasn't really in the script, all of these wonderful new

:10:43. > :10:45.freedoms, the liberation that follows from shrugging off the

:10:46. > :10:50.shackles of Brussels, the first thing the Prime Minister does is

:10:51. > :10:54.break bread with a self-proclaimed protectionist? Well, with a view to

:10:55. > :10:58.getting a trade deal between the largest and fifth-largest economy is

:10:59. > :11:03.on the planet, which will be of huge benefit to both. 1 million Brits

:11:04. > :11:06.turn up to work for American companies every day, we are the

:11:07. > :11:09.single biggest investor there, they are the single biggest investor

:11:10. > :11:12.here. The only thing that has not followed up has been the trade,

:11:13. > :11:16.because it has been controlled by Brussels instead of us. That can now

:11:17. > :11:22.change. As far as I can see, there are almost no losers, and a lot of

:11:23. > :11:25.winners, including European allies. Glass three quarters full for you?

:11:26. > :11:27.Are you worried about some of the less savoury elements of the

:11:28. > :11:33.election campaign, seeing the British Prime Minister essentially,

:11:34. > :11:39.post-Brexit, having to go there and make friendly noises? I was not a

:11:40. > :11:43.Trump supporter. Are you now? Seems to me that the only proper attitude

:11:44. > :11:47.for a friend of America and a friend of American democracy is to say you

:11:48. > :11:51.have made your decision and this remains a powerful alliance. Whoever

:11:52. > :11:56.is in the White House? As long as America remains committed to the

:11:57. > :12:03.values of the West, this is our one key alliance. It has since 1941. You

:12:04. > :12:05.mentioned 1941, it seems, and we haven't got the detail of the

:12:06. > :12:09.executive order, it looks like it might have signed a ban on refugees

:12:10. > :12:14.on Holocaust Remembrance Day. How does that play with Western values?

:12:15. > :12:18.There were all sorts of aspects of his platform... Just focus on that

:12:19. > :12:28.one? As I say, I would not have voted for him. But Theresa May's job

:12:29. > :12:32.is not to go and lecture him and what her finger, her job is to get

:12:33. > :12:35.the best deal for us, and, by implication, the best deal for the

:12:36. > :12:38.broader community of Western countries. I think she did that

:12:39. > :12:41.today. She came out with a commitment on Nato, which would have

:12:42. > :12:45.delighted the Europeans. She slightly softened his position on

:12:46. > :12:49.the issue of sanctions on Russia. She has not just gone and played a

:12:50. > :12:53.subordinate role at all, it is clear there is give and take. She has

:12:54. > :12:56.established her own vision of what the special relationship can be and

:12:57. > :13:05.she has made relationships, by the way, not just with him. The US is a

:13:06. > :13:10.system with a divided government. An awful lot, in a very short press

:13:11. > :13:14.conference! That she has also been meeting, you know, the other leaders

:13:15. > :13:18.in Congress. This will be a key relationship, bigger than any two

:13:19. > :13:26.leaders. Do you buy this conflation that is so broad now of Brexit, with

:13:27. > :13:29.Trump, that without Brexit there would be no tramp? Given your

:13:30. > :13:33.established rejection of much of what he said and stood for in the

:13:34. > :13:38.election campaign, do you feel, as the arch Brexiteer, a degree of

:13:39. > :13:43.responsible to? I think the parallel has been greatly overdone. A big

:13:44. > :13:47.part of Donald Trump's appeal, as I understand it, was that he did not

:13:48. > :13:56.want free trade with China. A big part of Vote Leave's agenda was that

:13:57. > :13:58.we do. Brexit has a globalist and internationalist flavour that I

:13:59. > :14:02.don't think was there. The one thing that they have in common, I will

:14:03. > :14:05.concede this, was anger against what was perceived to be a failed

:14:06. > :14:09.governing class. I think it would be a mistake to see Brexit as being

:14:10. > :14:13.nativist or protectionist, it is much more about re-engagement with

:14:14. > :14:18.the wider world. Do you think they should have been a bit of finger

:14:19. > :14:22.wagging, that said? I have no idea what happened behind closed doors. I

:14:23. > :14:27.can only infer from what was said in front of those doors afterwards. The

:14:28. > :14:33.issues that people have concerns about, Nato, Russia sanctions and so

:14:34. > :14:38.on, he seems to have slightly softened his position on. I accept

:14:39. > :14:41.you are not as enthusiastic about drawing the two together some other

:14:42. > :14:46.Brexiteers, do you think the world is a safer place now Donald Trump is

:14:47. > :14:50.in the White House? He was not my preferred candidate. I think the

:14:51. > :14:54.world is a safer place when English-speaking democracies were

:14:55. > :14:57.together for the rule of law. English-speaking democracies? The

:14:58. > :15:03.alliance between the United Kingdom and the United States has been a far

:15:04. > :15:05.greater guarantor of human happiness than anybody likes to admit for the

:15:06. > :15:08.last 100 years. Imagine a world without it. We think of these

:15:09. > :15:12.universal values of free speech, equality for women, democracy, there

:15:13. > :15:16.would have been nothing universal about them if the Second World War

:15:17. > :15:19.ended differently, or the Cold War ended differently. We should

:15:20. > :15:24.remember the value of that alliance and what it has done, not just for

:15:25. > :15:32.us, but the other countries. But the alliance that was already extant? I

:15:33. > :15:35.just wanted to direct your view towards continental Europe. The

:15:36. > :15:41.candidate for the French presidency said that Britain lives in

:15:42. > :15:45.equilibrium with Europe, but now it is becoming the junior partner of

:15:46. > :15:49.the United States? On from being a big player... The absurdity of that

:15:50. > :15:53.is that the European Union is that political integration. It is about

:15:54. > :15:56.turning countries into something bigger, a political union. No

:15:57. > :16:00.country in the world is more jealous of its sovereignty than the United

:16:01. > :16:03.States. The idea that this could be anything other than an alliance of

:16:04. > :16:06.democracies, and I have one that goes wider, bringing in other

:16:07. > :16:12.friendly countries, that we would be drawn into a political union...

:16:13. > :16:17.English-speaking, or would we allow others? All friendly countries.

:16:18. > :16:20.There are so much virtue signalling, including from some British

:16:21. > :16:24.politicians, who are indulging themselves by signalling their

:16:25. > :16:28.distaste for this or that aspect of Donald Trump's domestic policy. They

:16:29. > :16:31.might just feel displaced. But if they were Prime Minister and not

:16:32. > :16:36.engaging with the will's largest economy, and our most important

:16:37. > :16:38.military ally, it would be a serious dereliction of duty.

:16:39. > :16:41.It would seem that the spokespeople and cheerleaders who spent much

:16:42. > :16:44.of last year insisting that Trump should be taken seriously but not

:16:45. > :16:48.literally, or that we should stop listening to his actual words

:16:49. > :16:51.and focus instead on what was in his heart are going to need

:16:52. > :16:56.Within days of assuming office Trump has signed executive orders

:16:57. > :16:59.addressing inter alia, pre-election pledges about banning

:17:00. > :17:01.all refugees from some Muslim countries and building that wall

:17:02. > :17:06.Newsnight's diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been considering just

:17:07. > :17:23.how significant those signatures will prove to be.

:17:24. > :17:30.The speech followed by a dispute over how many had attended heralded

:17:31. > :17:36.something loud and clear. From early morning tweets to abuse, President

:17:37. > :17:44.Trump is no different from campaign trail Trump. The idea of repealing

:17:45. > :17:50.Obamacare, the affordable care act, has been counted many times on the

:17:51. > :17:53.trail. And it is somewhere where the president and Republican lawmakers

:17:54. > :17:59.can agree in principle. But signing off on his first executive order,

:18:00. > :18:05.Trump could not scrap Obamacare in one stroke. That would lead the Mac

:18:06. > :18:09.relieved 20 million Americans uncovered. Republicans have thought

:18:10. > :18:13.about the alternative for some time but they have not necessarily agreed

:18:14. > :18:17.on what the policy is so I think there would have to be some

:18:18. > :18:22.agreement around policy and then the timing and sequencing has to come

:18:23. > :18:27.into play. I have thought this would be a several month process. In some

:18:28. > :18:32.areas, for example on resuming water boarding, the news has not been

:18:33. > :18:36.quite what it seems. When Isis is doing things people have not heard

:18:37. > :18:41.of since medieval times, would I feel strongly about water boarding?

:18:42. > :18:47.As far as I am concerned, we have to fight while with fire. In an ABC

:18:48. > :18:53.interview President Trump said it is clear torture works. But it is clear

:18:54. > :18:59.he the CIA director opposes it. I think he's communicating what voters

:19:00. > :19:02.feel and what he feels himself. At the same time that is different from

:19:03. > :19:09.the US government establishing a policy. We had the opposite from the

:19:10. > :19:14.Defence Secretary, Jim Mattis saying he has more success with a can of

:19:15. > :19:19.beer and a pack of cigarettes than anyone would using enhanced

:19:20. > :19:24.interrogation. That is uncertain, what about the Mexican wall? It is a

:19:25. > :19:30.key campaign promise but paying for it is proving entirely contentious.

:19:31. > :19:35.First the American president cancelled a planned visit, then

:19:36. > :19:41.President Trump talked about using a 20% import tariffs but legislation

:19:42. > :19:44.looks inevitable. It cannot be done simply by executive order. The issue

:19:45. > :19:50.now is can he rule by executive order and I think there are real and

:19:51. > :19:54.straights on that. The first constraint is obviously Congress

:19:55. > :19:59.itself which can actually legislate to stop him using executive orders

:20:00. > :20:02.if it wants, but anything Donald Trump sits in his office and signs,

:20:03. > :20:08.Congress will have the power to either fund or not fund. And then

:20:09. > :20:12.there is the government machine. Draft executive orders have already

:20:13. > :20:14.leaked, White House staff have badmouthed each other and civil

:20:15. > :20:19.servants have been tweeting subversively. I'm sure that in the

:20:20. > :20:23.federal workforce there are a lot of people who are very unhappy about

:20:24. > :20:30.Trump's collection, and will provide some kind of passive resistance to

:20:31. > :20:37.his leadership or active resistance. I re-hope people don't do that and

:20:38. > :20:40.get over it. It is everyone's DTE to try and make the administration that

:20:41. > :20:46.you're working for as successful as possible for the good of the

:20:47. > :20:51.country. For the moment, just one weekend, Trump still has plenty of

:20:52. > :20:57.political momentum, but with so many executive orders, uncertainty over

:20:58. > :20:59.how they will work, and fewer appointees in place, the

:21:00. > :21:02.complications have already started to multiply.

:21:03. > :21:04.In a moment we'll be talking to the foreign affairs expert,

:21:05. > :21:08.But first joining me now from Florida is the veteran

:21:09. > :21:10.republican political strategist Roger Stone, who is a long term

:21:11. > :21:24.Mr Stone, everyone was waiting for a pivot, they were waiting for the old

:21:25. > :21:30.phrase we campaign in poetry and govern in prose, but there isn't

:21:31. > :21:34.going to be one, is there? No, nor is there going to be any honeymoon.

:21:35. > :21:39.Donald Trump is exactly who he appears to be. He is his own man.

:21:40. > :21:43.He's not going to fit into some structure designed by others, and I

:21:44. > :21:48.believe that as long as he continues to implement his agenda, and make

:21:49. > :21:53.progress on the big issues, these small kerfuffle over his Twitter

:21:54. > :21:56.feed and the of the press and his correct in my view criticism of the

:21:57. > :22:02.media will not matter. What matters to the American people are results.

:22:03. > :22:06.Let me pick you up on that first point about him being his own man

:22:07. > :22:11.who is not going to try and fit into anybody else's worldview, how does

:22:12. > :22:15.that square with what he said about torture and fitting into James

:22:16. > :22:21.Mattis's worldview? I could not understand your question. You said

:22:22. > :22:26.he will be his own man and not be moulded by anyone else's views but

:22:27. > :22:31.the first thing he said in a press Conference today is he has allowed

:22:32. > :22:36.James Mattis to remould the attitude on torture. He will follow the lead

:22:37. > :22:41.of his Defence Secretary. First of all he has to do what is both legal

:22:42. > :22:46.and constitutional, regardless of what his personal views are. I

:22:47. > :22:50.understand his disgust at the tactics of Isis and I think he is

:22:51. > :22:56.trying to signal that he will do everything he can to crush Isis. At

:22:57. > :22:59.the same time, he like every other president has to follow the law.

:23:00. > :23:06.General Mattis is a good man, he knows what he is doing. I think he

:23:07. > :23:11.is wise to follow his lead. Will they be torture under a Trump

:23:12. > :23:15.Administration, knowing what you know of Donald Trump? I think he

:23:16. > :23:20.will push the limits legally and constitutionally. He wants to get

:23:21. > :23:26.tough on Isis as he can but at the end of the day he still has to abide

:23:27. > :23:31.by the law. You are a veteran of the dark arts of politicking, you seem

:23:32. > :23:35.to revel in the rascal -ish nature of the profession, so when you put

:23:36. > :23:40.it out that Ted Cruz' father was involved in the assassination of

:23:41. > :23:47.John F. Kennedy, one imagines you doing it with a wry smile and a

:23:48. > :23:51.thumbs up to the gallery. Donald Trump has a different view. When he

:23:52. > :23:55.spoke about being in Scotland the day before Brexit, the calendar in

:23:56. > :24:00.his own Twitter reveals he did not go there until the day after. Does

:24:01. > :24:05.he believe all of this himself even though the evidence contradicts him?

:24:06. > :24:18.I think there is some poetic licence there, but I am committed to the

:24:19. > :24:22.truth. And the issue about the Russians and the elections which is

:24:23. > :24:26.unproven... That is why I have not asked you about that. When he says

:24:27. > :24:30.he was in Scotland the day before the result came in and he predicted

:24:31. > :24:33.it all and his own Twitter account reveals he landed in Scotland the

:24:34. > :24:41.day after, does he believe it when he says it? Perhaps he was mistaken.

:24:42. > :24:50.Do you think any voter really cares? Identifying daycare. -- identity

:24:51. > :24:54.they care. When he says it was not raining during the inauguration but

:24:55. > :25:00.people could feel the raindrops landing on their head, it does he

:25:01. > :25:06.put himself in a position where he has persuaded himself that what he

:25:07. > :25:11.wants to be true is true? Well, having gone to the inauguration,

:25:12. > :25:15.having taken the occasion to find and where a morning suit, something

:25:16. > :25:20.I have wanted to do my entire life, I have to tell you it did not rain.

:25:21. > :25:24.There was a nanosecond when there was a sprinkling of raindrops, it

:25:25. > :25:31.was over in less than two minutes. I know because my wife did not want to

:25:32. > :25:37.get drenched, so I think on this occasion he was right. But not on

:25:38. > :25:43.the dates for arriving in Scotland. Congratulations on the morning suit.

:25:44. > :25:52.I am joined now by Anne Applebaum from the Washington Post. IU as

:25:53. > :25:57.upbeat about Donald Trump? Funnily enough I thought Mr Trump sounded

:25:58. > :26:02.less upbeat than I thought he was. I am holding fire. I will wait to see

:26:03. > :26:08.what happens. What would be good news, what would reassure you? What

:26:09. > :26:13.would reassure me, unfortunately, would be if Trump had announced he

:26:14. > :26:17.had thought it through, he had listened to his cabinet, he had

:26:18. > :26:21.spoken to experts, he had talked to people in the State Department, he

:26:22. > :26:24.had talked people in other departments and he had decided that

:26:25. > :26:28.the Liberal International order and the rule of law, and the rules based

:26:29. > :26:33.order that Theresa May spoke about, that these are things worth

:26:34. > :26:38.preserving and he has decided to preserve them. That would reassure

:26:39. > :26:43.me. And at that point his core support goes nuts? I am not sure

:26:44. > :26:53.because I am not sure what his core supporters were voting for him for?

:26:54. > :26:58.The wall and the ban on Muslims. It was not clear how much it matters.

:26:59. > :27:02.They clearly that is to some people but everybody, I am not sure. Is

:27:03. > :27:07.there a danger now that everybody is hearing what they want to hear and

:27:08. > :27:11.in fact he does move around quite a lot and possibly even today we may

:27:12. > :27:15.have seen evidence that his opinion can be in some way changed by the

:27:16. > :27:19.last person who made an impression on him. Theresa May very keen to

:27:20. > :27:26.come out and talk about Nato and Russian sanctions, if he is in a

:27:27. > :27:29.room with someone more hawkish tomorrow or more protectionist, he

:27:30. > :27:31.may switch again? As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:27:32. > :27:34.contrary, "no". One of the techniques he used to win the

:27:35. > :27:36.election, you can look at the way they used Facebook and his team used

:27:37. > :27:45.the Internet, they would put at dozens of different messages. People

:27:46. > :27:51.heard what they wanted to hear and they screamed out what they didn't

:27:52. > :27:59.want to hear. You and I are not used to it. We are confused by it and we

:28:00. > :28:04.find it contradictory. It was an election and it did help him get

:28:05. > :28:07.elected. The question is, can it help him rule? The statements he

:28:08. > :28:11.made about the wall and making Mexico pay for the wall, what has

:28:12. > :28:17.happened, he has destroyed relationships with one of America's

:28:18. > :28:23.most important allies and trading partnerships, the peso has crashed,

:28:24. > :28:27.people believe the border may come back, Nafta may be regulated which

:28:28. > :28:33.means hundreds and hundreds of businesses will be in trouble. They

:28:34. > :28:37.all heard some messages that he was sending to some people and those

:28:38. > :28:43.have now had a defect in real life. Now that he is president, that meant

:28:44. > :28:46.that instead of strewing messages out there and letting them sink into

:28:47. > :28:52.where they might, that will have effects in the real world. Do you

:28:53. > :28:58.believe Theresa May had much choice in trying to get to the front of the

:28:59. > :29:03.queue? Her visit to Washington was a real indication of how much more

:29:04. > :29:08.restricted Britain's choices are and how much less sovereignty Britain

:29:09. > :29:12.has been used to. Britain has no choice. She politically needs

:29:13. > :29:17.somewhere she can go when Britain leads the EU. She needs someone she

:29:18. > :29:21.can point to as a partner. I had worried that one of her partners

:29:22. > :29:28.might be Russia or China or Turkey... She is in Turkey next! She

:29:29. > :29:33.would need somebody out of the periphery. She might go to the anti

:29:34. > :29:37.democratic world. And Trump as a blessing from the sky has given her

:29:38. > :29:41.this opportunity. But almost everything she said in her speech

:29:42. > :29:45.yesterday, and everything she said about global Britain in the last few

:29:46. > :29:49.days, contradicts directly what Trump has said. But they held hands.

:29:50. > :29:53.Anne Applebaum thank you. We have, inevitably,

:29:54. > :29:55.been viewing the nascent Trump Presidency and the new world

:29:56. > :29:57.order many believe it will presage Let's have a little look

:29:58. > :30:15.now at how it appears What I see is America becoming more

:30:16. > :30:17.protectionist, becoming more nationalist, that they are

:30:18. > :30:30.withdrawing from global trade and global agreements, and, at the same

:30:31. > :30:38.time, China taking up that position. The President was at Davos to give a

:30:39. > :30:42.speech, stating China's desire to take a leadership on global trade,

:30:43. > :30:44.which will be for the prosperity and peace of the world, and also taking

:30:45. > :30:58.the lead on climate change. If it is business deals,

:30:59. > :31:02.renegotiating trade deals, cancelling them, amending them, that

:31:03. > :31:09.is one thing. If it's going to be a projection of military power, again,

:31:10. > :31:15.that is going to be very dangerous. But, of course, from Mr Trump's

:31:16. > :31:23.first utterances, it appears he realises those dangers. The European

:31:24. > :31:29.partners are very much in doubt whether the United States will

:31:30. > :31:38.continue to be a trustful ally in Nato. Then, fundamentally, I think

:31:39. > :31:41.it is important to emphasise that in his inauguration speech, he hasn't

:31:42. > :31:46.emphasised the value of human rights, democracy, of liberal order,

:31:47. > :31:50.which is really another fundamental the global order, as we have built

:31:51. > :31:53.that, together with the United States. His brief comments on

:31:54. > :31:54.torture just prove that he is ready to really question fundamental

:31:55. > :31:56.principles. The historian Simon Schama is here,

:31:57. > :31:59.alongside Ted Malloch, who is widely tipped for a role

:32:00. > :32:01.in the Trump administration - possibly as Ambassador

:32:02. > :32:13.to the European Union. You don't have any news for us?

:32:14. > :32:21.Maybe next week. Simon, you have taken to social media and coined the

:32:22. > :32:26.Rhine Theresa the appeaser. Anything to appease your fears today? Not

:32:27. > :32:32.particularly. The spectacle of them holding hands, actually, doesn't in

:32:33. > :32:37.any rational way speak to your question, it did turn my stomach

:32:38. > :32:44.somewhat. We don't know that it didn't turn hers. The fear that she

:32:45. > :32:48.is cosying up to a regime that may prove to be, as an historian, may

:32:49. > :32:53.stand comparison with other 20th-century horrors, are you

:32:54. > :33:01.stepping back? I think scary authoritarian regimes, not to

:33:02. > :33:05.inaccurately paraphrase, are scary and authoritarian each in their own

:33:06. > :33:09.way. I think this is starting to look incredibly scary and

:33:10. > :33:14.authoritarian. Particularly, actually, banning the possibility of

:33:15. > :33:21.the Environmental Protection Agency delivering data to the public. All

:33:22. > :33:26.sorts of things, I think, are serious. But the most worrying part

:33:27. > :33:35.of all, which does not speak to the authoritarian issue, but something

:33:36. > :33:38.more loopy, is his lack of contact with reality. Today, he doubled down

:33:39. > :33:42.on the extraordinary assertion that between three million and 5 million

:33:43. > :33:48.illegal immigrant votes were cast. It is absolutely, this was actually

:33:49. > :33:53.delivered to a reception in which, the first reception he had with

:33:54. > :33:58.congressional leaders, there were treated to being harangued on this

:33:59. > :34:03.fantastic story, with no evidence whatsoever. He is starting an

:34:04. > :34:09.investigation into an election he won! This is beyond absurd. There

:34:10. > :34:15.are three objectives there that I will pick up on, absurd, scary and

:34:16. > :34:22.authoritarian. Do you recognise what he describes? Nonobvious above.

:34:23. > :34:30.Where would you like me to start? -- none of the above. The voter fraud

:34:31. > :34:37.allegations, the Democrats swung 3 million illegal votes, but not put

:34:38. > :34:41.them anywhere that would win an election? Well, let's have an

:34:42. > :34:48.investigation, if somebody has evidence... The evidence comes from

:34:49. > :34:52.Greg Phillips! You have the investigation and come to the

:34:53. > :35:00.conclusions afterwards. We have an investigation into Russian hacking

:35:01. > :35:03.and find out the truth. Hopefully we have imperial evidence, rather than

:35:04. > :35:07.dismissing them out of hand. Why not look at them? Even on the liberal

:35:08. > :35:15.left, we are willing to look at actual facts. Empirical evidence,

:35:16. > :35:20.obviously... A social scientist. So climate change is on the table?

:35:21. > :35:26.People have different points of view. We are talking about empirical

:35:27. > :35:30.data? 10% of hard scientists have some questions. Let me draw the

:35:31. > :35:34.conversation out, if I may, and look at whether or not you feel, as

:35:35. > :35:43.somebody that clearly Donald Trump holds in high regard, that we are at

:35:44. > :35:49.a pivotal point in Western history? I think we are at a turn in Western

:35:50. > :35:55.history. Obviously we have had a change from one regime to another

:35:56. > :35:58.regime, so you have that. But you also have a more national orientated

:35:59. > :36:07.and more populist orientated political caste. Not just in the

:36:08. > :36:11.United States, in many countries around the world. Maybe a new order

:36:12. > :36:19.is beginning to appear. Nationalist, populist, they are not new ideas?

:36:20. > :36:24.Well, in this form, this time, yes. Frankly, are there any new ideas

:36:25. > :36:33.since Plato? We could have that debate. Nationalism and populism

:36:34. > :36:36.rarely lead to harmony. Lead to harmony? Well, there are different

:36:37. > :36:46.kinds of nationalism, different kinds of populism. America first,

:36:47. > :36:55.let's take that slogan. Do you know who used the term first? Well,

:36:56. > :36:59.Wilson? But it was reprehensible when he used it. Maybe when

:37:00. > :37:05.Lindbergh used it it was more reprehensible. Lindbergh was an

:37:06. > :37:12.appeaser. He was soft on the Nazis. It is an irony that Trump has moved

:37:13. > :37:16.Churchill back into his office, who detested everything about the slogan

:37:17. > :37:21.and what America first stood for. But he needed America to help save

:37:22. > :37:30.Britain at a certain point in time. Trump is not intellectually

:37:31. > :37:34.connected with that wonderful litany of intellectual history. He is

:37:35. > :37:38.interested in literally putting America first, re-establishing

:37:39. > :37:41.America's place in the world, America's economy. That is the thing

:37:42. > :37:47.to underscore. He got elected on a platform that said the middle class

:37:48. > :37:52.has suffered for at least 15 years. Not just the last eight years, but

:37:53. > :37:58.it has suffered and it needs to come back. Why is he proposing a tax cut

:37:59. > :38:02.that will benefit, hugely and disproportionally, the top 1%? You

:38:03. > :38:07.know about supply-side economics, it has worked before. It hasn't. At

:38:08. > :38:11.work for John Kennedy, it worked for Ronald Reagan and it could work this

:38:12. > :38:21.time. In four years we could have a balanced budget. We had a balanced

:38:22. > :38:24.budget under Bill Clinton. Newt Gingrich was the head of Congress

:38:25. > :38:27.and they did it together. I'm interested in the distinction

:38:28. > :38:31.between literally and seriously. It has been a recurring theme. You

:38:32. > :38:36.taken seriously, but not literally. You have always taken him literally?

:38:37. > :38:41.I think you could taking either way and people obviously have. He's

:38:42. > :38:46.President now, he is not campaigning. That is true. There

:38:47. > :38:51.should be some difference, you know. Have you seen any yet? In five days,

:38:52. > :38:55.I think we are beginning to... I think we saw some of it today, in

:38:56. > :39:03.the meeting under the summit with Theresa May. Thank you both. Are you

:39:04. > :39:06.seeing any cause for cautious optimism, or a delusion of

:39:07. > :39:14.pessimism? No. Thank you very much indeed. Let's look at the papers. No

:39:15. > :39:18.surprise for guessing what is on the front pages. I will keep you in

:39:19. > :39:20.suspense. There is a prize for guessing.

:39:21. > :39:25.It was 1974, on a struggling local American TV channel.

:39:26. > :39:27.A little known reporter shot herself on live television,

:39:28. > :39:30.apparently claiming it was a protest against the drive for blood

:39:31. > :39:36.As with every suicide, the answers to why she did it

:39:37. > :39:38.are likely more complex and Christine Chubbock had

:39:39. > :39:42.struggled with longstanding mental health issues.

:39:43. > :39:45.A new film, Christine, is out today - and charts the days

:39:46. > :39:50.leading up to that awful moment, captured on live TV.

:39:51. > :39:56.Katie Razzall went to meet its leading actor, Rebecca Hall.

:39:57. > :39:58.Broadcast in real-time, live TV is almost old hat

:39:59. > :40:08.But as a way of recounting world events as they happen,

:40:09. > :40:09.it can be dramatic, compelling and uncontrollable.

:40:10. > :40:15.I'm a reporter at WZRB and I'm always on the lookout...

:40:16. > :40:19.In 1974 in Sarasota, Florida, the worst did, when a local

:40:20. > :40:22.television reporter who suffered long-term mental health issues shot

:40:23. > :40:24.herself live on-air, claiming it was a protest

:40:25. > :40:29.at being asked to sensationalise the journalism she held dear.

:40:30. > :40:38.She is, in some small sense, famous on the internet,

:40:39. > :40:42.as being one of the sort of top ten most shocking things that ever

:40:43. > :40:49.Because she took her life on live TV.

:40:50. > :40:52.She said, "In keeping with the network's desire for blood

:40:53. > :40:53.and guts television, here's a first -

:40:54. > :40:59.It's an act of terrorism, almost, in that sense.

:41:00. > :41:03.She is making it political, and she is making a comment

:41:04. > :41:05.on the thing that she very much didn't want to do.

:41:06. > :41:08.She was someone who was under constant pressure from the higher

:41:09. > :41:11.ups, in this small network, to create juicy reporting

:41:12. > :41:18.It's believed only a few hundred people watched

:41:19. > :41:22.Christine Chubbuck's death live on TV.

:41:23. > :41:25.The nature of the internet means these days suicides live on Facebook

:41:26. > :41:28.have been watched by people around the world.

:41:29. > :41:34.I think if it happened now, I think it would be inescapable.

:41:35. > :41:37.And that is actually rather disturbing to think about.

:41:38. > :41:40.I suppose it's true that now people do kill themselves on Facebook Live

:41:41. > :41:43.and they have difficulties getting the material off, their relatives.

:41:44. > :41:46.And one shouldn't have access to that footage,

:41:47. > :41:51.In the film, she says, "can you record this?"

:41:52. > :41:58.I understand there's a tape, and I also understand

:41:59. > :42:01.that the family went to court and got it from the station

:42:02. > :42:07.There's a lot of rumour and speculation about it.

:42:08. > :42:10.I don't really want to get into that.

:42:11. > :42:13.I don't think anyone should see that and we should respect the family's

:42:14. > :42:15.Otherwise it is grisly and sensationalistic

:42:16. > :42:25.There's a reason this idea is catching fire

:42:26. > :42:31.They didn't show that, they cut out just before.

:42:32. > :42:34.They didn't have the guts to show the whole thing.

:42:35. > :42:35.They could have doubled their ratings.

:42:36. > :42:37.The equivalent now would be clickbait.

:42:38. > :42:40.What's the most shocking way you can describe a story so that

:42:41. > :42:42.someone will click on it and read the article?

:42:43. > :42:44.Because you get more ratings, or whatever term

:42:45. > :42:50.I pledge to you tonight, from this office, that I will do

:42:51. > :42:52.everything in my power to ensure that the guilty are

:42:53. > :42:55.It's like, the 1970s were, in many respects,

:42:56. > :43:06.But also, you've got, for the first time, there is extreme

:43:07. > :43:07.violence in people's homes, on television, because

:43:08. > :43:16.And it really is, I think there are so many things

:43:17. > :43:20.that are conflating, and Christine's story sort of

:43:21. > :43:26.The fact that she asked for her show to be video taped that day indicates

:43:27. > :43:35.Clearly, is a timely story because not just Hall's Christine,

:43:36. > :43:37.but another film about Chubbuck debuted at last year's

:43:38. > :43:47.No, no, not the tape of the suicide, but anything at all...

:43:48. > :43:50.I always think the thing about any piece of drama that's set in another

:43:51. > :43:53.time is it says something about the time in which it's set,

:43:54. > :43:56.but it arguably say something even more significant about the time

:43:57. > :44:05.And, you know, when I think of 1974 in America, and I have read a lot

:44:06. > :44:08.around this in preparation for this film, there's a real sense of...

:44:09. > :44:16.Paranoia and uncertainty about where the world's going.

:44:17. > :44:19.You're coming out of the 60s with a sense of, you know,

:44:20. > :44:22.the stakes are life-and-death, where are we going, what's happening

:44:23. > :44:32.I don't think that audiences right now are going to have a hard time

:44:33. > :44:37.As you know, I have a running war with the media.

:44:38. > :44:44.They are among the most dishonest human beings on earth.

:44:45. > :44:47.We need to be vigilant, and the way that we do

:44:48. > :44:51.that is through the press, and for it to be proper journalism

:44:52. > :44:53.that delivers us the information that we need in order

:44:54. > :45:04.I thought she was meant to get some fresh flowers?

:45:05. > :45:07.Yeah, I told her to, it must have slipped her mind.

:45:08. > :45:10.Well, I can't think about anything else, sorry,

:45:11. > :45:19.For better or worse, Christine was a harbinger for a lot

:45:20. > :45:22.of things that we still, as a society, have a rough

:45:23. > :45:28.Ultimately, it's quite easy to humanise characters

:45:29. > :45:36.Even characters who have awful things happen to them,

:45:37. > :45:39.and are victims of things, but remain essentially good.

:45:40. > :45:43.It's crucial for artists to humanise people that we'd

:45:44. > :45:47.rather look away from, or would rather just

:45:48. > :45:58.You know, put that person in a box and just label it monster,

:45:59. > :46:01.crazy or whatever, and let's just not think about it.

:46:02. > :46:26.Katie Razzall there with Rebecca Hall, the star of the new film

:46:27. > :46:33.Christine which opens at the weekend. There is an outbreak of

:46:34. > :46:37.unanimity on the picture desk. This will soon be the iconic image of

:46:38. > :46:41.Donald Trump. It is hard to see who is helping hood down the stairs but

:46:42. > :46:46.Donald Trump holding hands with Prime Minister Theresa May. The

:46:47. > :46:56.Daily Mail has gone for the open goal. -- Daily Mirror.

:46:57. > :47:02.They have some insect photographs showing even more physical warmth

:47:03. > :47:07.between the two. And then the Guardian has a more sombre headline

:47:08. > :47:12.but the photograph remains the same. All three papers referring to the

:47:13. > :47:17.Nato pledge which Theresa May revealed she had prised from the

:47:18. > :47:22.president. And that is all that we have time for. Good night.