:00:11. > :00:19.Thousands have come out in protest tonight,
:00:20. > :00:22.as the world works out how to respond to America's
:00:23. > :00:35.What I want to be clear about is that since becoming President, he's
:00:36. > :00:39.continued to take steps through executive order and otherwise to
:00:40. > :00:40.make sure this country is as safe as it can be and we're ahead of every
:00:41. > :00:42.threat. The President is kind
:00:43. > :00:44.of doing what he promised, but it's causing trouble and anger
:00:45. > :00:47.at home and abroad. We'll hear from the most
:00:48. > :00:48.senior Muslim diplomat The Government here has been
:00:49. > :01:04.expanding on its view. This is not an approach that this
:01:05. > :01:09.Government would take. But let me conclude by reminding the House of
:01:10. > :01:10.the vital importance of this country's alliance with the United
:01:11. > :01:12.States. We'll discuss how well it's been
:01:13. > :01:14.handled and what that says Leading the Brexit negotiations
:01:15. > :01:22.for the European Parliament. Demonstrations outside
:01:23. > :01:38.the US and inside. A judicial challenge
:01:39. > :01:40.to the Trump immigration curbs. Businesses complaining
:01:41. > :01:43.at the policy, and a fall in the dollar and the Dow
:01:44. > :01:47.at the fear it is all destabilising. And the public opposition
:01:48. > :01:50.of former President Obama. No, things didn't quieten down after
:01:51. > :01:55.the Trump Presidential inauguration. Now, no-one knows where the real
:01:56. > :01:59.balance of opinion lies. Is there a quiet majority in favour
:02:00. > :02:03.of tough immigration restrictions? What we do know is that there
:02:04. > :02:06.is noisy opposition to the specific measures adopted by Donald Trump,
:02:07. > :02:10.and it includes many Conservatives The whole idea of a Trump state
:02:11. > :02:16.visit is dividing opinion here, but let's start in the US,
:02:17. > :02:32.and go over to Yalda Hakim, We arrived at JFK airport a few
:02:33. > :02:35.hours ago and there seems to be things have really quietened down
:02:36. > :02:39.here. There weren't the scenes of chaos we saw over the weekend. What
:02:40. > :02:43.does remain is confusion. We spoke it a group of lawyers who have
:02:44. > :02:46.create aid make shift office at one of the terminals at the airport.
:02:47. > :02:50.They've told us that they're aware of at least 42 people who were
:02:51. > :02:56.detained here over the weekend. That number could be much higher. We're
:02:57. > :03:00.also hearing unverified reports that at least nine nationals from Saudi
:03:01. > :03:04.Arabia have been detained. We're not quite sure if that is actually
:03:05. > :03:09.correct. That remains unverified. We're being told by these lawyers
:03:10. > :03:12.that they're not getting any more information from the authorities.
:03:13. > :03:15.President Trump's supporters have welcomed the ban. They're saying
:03:16. > :03:19.this is exactly what he said he would do during the election
:03:20. > :03:25.campaign. His critics, which include immigration experts and security
:03:26. > :03:29.analysts, say this won't make America safer. Tonight President
:03:30. > :03:33.Obama has issued a statement in support of the protesters and says
:03:34. > :03:48.he's concerned about the ban. This remains a deeply divided nation.
:03:49. > :03:55.A weekend that made America think about what the country stood for.
:03:56. > :04:02.The President of a nation of immigrants taking unprecedented
:04:03. > :04:08.steps to stop refugees from entering the country to, as he says, make
:04:09. > :04:12.America safer. Today, things are quieter and there are fewer
:04:13. > :04:16.protesters around. We've just arrived at JFK. I've been quite
:04:17. > :04:20.nervous the entire flight over. I was born in Afghanistan but I travel
:04:21. > :04:27.on an Australian passport. I wasn't sure if the policy had changed
:04:28. > :04:31.mid-air between London and New York. Trump and his team remain defiant
:04:32. > :04:35.today saying that the government did a phenomenal job and that the
:04:36. > :04:39.majority agree with the President. I think this has been blown way out of
:04:40. > :04:44.proportion and exaggerated. Again, you talk in a 24-hour period,
:04:45. > :04:48.325,000 people from other countries flew in from our airports and we're
:04:49. > :04:53.talking about 109 people from seven countries that the Obama
:04:54. > :04:56.administration identified and these bureaucrats have a problem with it.
:04:57. > :05:02.They can either get with the programme or either go. Hold on.
:05:03. > :05:06.This is about the safety of America. Regardless of the comments from the
:05:07. > :05:11.White House, there is still anger about the measures. The order
:05:12. > :05:16.appears on the face of it to be clear - it suspends entry for
:05:17. > :05:24.citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen for
:05:25. > :05:29.90 days. It places a ban on all refugee arrivals for 120 days. It
:05:30. > :05:34.decrees an indefinite ban for Syrian refugees and it places a cap of
:05:35. > :05:39.50,000 refugees in 2017, roughly the same as President Obama accepted at
:05:40. > :05:44.the start of his presidency. Part of the problem has been the rollout of
:05:45. > :05:46.the policy. Confusion reigned over the weekend, when passengers were
:05:47. > :05:53.detained at airports around the country. There was also confusion
:05:54. > :05:57.about the exact status of green card holders and dual citizens. Today
:05:58. > :06:01.Washington state launched a legal appeal against the ban and former
:06:02. > :06:05.President Obama made his first public statement since stepping
:06:06. > :06:09.down, saying he was heartened by protests against the policy. Despite
:06:10. > :06:16.the mounting pressure and criticism, President Trump is not backing down.
:06:17. > :06:20.He criticised the tears of Chuck Schumer and asked where the lefty
:06:21. > :06:23.outrage was from the Democrats when the jobs were fleeing the country.
:06:24. > :06:28.He reminded protesters that a crack down on Muslims was a big part of
:06:29. > :06:32.his campaign. But others are seriously concerned. You're seeing
:06:33. > :06:36.people talk about this idea not just on the refugee side, which is
:06:37. > :06:39.extremely serious, but also on the idea that we're giving preference to
:06:40. > :06:47.one religion over another. That isn't who we are as Americans. It is
:06:48. > :06:53.not who we stand for and unless we can retake the narrative and talk
:06:54. > :06:57.more positively about who we are rather than putting this optic of an
:06:58. > :06:59.us and them forward, we're going to have a really big problem both in
:07:00. > :07:06.the United States and around the world. The President says he will
:07:07. > :07:10.review the ban in the next few months. But that's little comfort
:07:11. > :07:16.for those who dreamt of a future in America.
:07:17. > :07:19.Zalmay Khalilzad served as US ambassador to
:07:20. > :07:25.He was the most senior Muslim US diplomat ever.
:07:26. > :07:32.Thank you very much for joining us. You were born in Afghanistan. You
:07:33. > :07:41.made your life in the United States. What do you think about this, these
:07:42. > :07:47.restrictions? We are in the age of terrorism and terrorists do use
:07:48. > :07:55.visas and immigration as a way to infiltrate, so I can understand that
:07:56. > :07:59.President Trump would like to see whether our immigration policy and
:08:00. > :08:08.refugee policies need to be tightened so that we can protect
:08:09. > :08:14.ourselves against this threat. His executive orders that started the
:08:15. > :08:20.debate and this temporary ban can lead, in my hope, to a debate, to an
:08:21. > :08:29.assessment. Then we can come to a judicious policy that balances
:08:30. > :08:34.security concerns with our values and factor what we do on our
:08:35. > :08:37.friends, on terrorists. I hope that emotional period is going to be soon
:08:38. > :08:45.over and that we can have a reasoned debate. You were tipped to serve as
:08:46. > :08:50.a potential cabinet member for a Trump office. You weren't a natural
:08:51. > :08:53.supporter for him. Do you think you could imagine still serving for a
:08:54. > :08:56.President who had what is, I think everyone would agree, quite a crude
:08:57. > :09:05.ban on certain countries and certain types of people? I love the United
:09:06. > :09:09.States. The US has been very good to me, given my personal history. I
:09:10. > :09:12.have said to the administration, as I have said to previous
:09:13. > :09:18.administrations that if I am needed, if I can help my adopted country,
:09:19. > :09:25.I'll be happy to do so. I'm not looking for a job at this point
:09:26. > :09:28.myself however. Some people, a lot of people just hate Trump and don't
:09:29. > :09:32.want him there. Some people were willing to give President Trump a
:09:33. > :09:36.chance and I'm detecting from you, because I would put you in that
:09:37. > :09:40.category, that it hasn't put you off him, that you basically think this
:09:41. > :09:43.is not irredeemable, this is not the worst thing any President could do,
:09:44. > :09:47.this is probably not exact lip as you would have -- exactly as you
:09:48. > :09:55.would have done it, but it may lead somewhere good in the end? That is
:09:56. > :10:02.my hope. That's my expectation. I believe it's a responsibility to
:10:03. > :10:05.help, to get to a judicious place where the various considerations
:10:06. > :10:11.that should inform the policy are brought together in a balanced way.
:10:12. > :10:15.I hope that this will happen. Do you as someone with experience in Iraq,
:10:16. > :10:19.for example, think this is going to work, it's going to make America
:10:20. > :10:22.safer? Or is it just, as many have said, it's completely irrelevant to
:10:23. > :10:25.the safety of the United States given that no terror attacks have
:10:26. > :10:29.occurred from any of the seven countries in the last X decades? If
:10:30. > :10:36.we balance the various considerations that I have
:10:37. > :10:40.suggested, it should help, because, as I said before, the terrorists are
:10:41. > :10:47.trying to infiltrate. Not only the United States, but our allies in
:10:48. > :10:51.Europe and elsewhere. And we need to have a strategy, a policy that
:10:52. > :10:54.reduces the opportunity, if not eliminates that opportunity for
:10:55. > :11:00.them. But we have other considerations as well, oftening. --
:11:01. > :11:05.of course. What was wrong with the previous policy and why did it have
:11:06. > :11:08.to be done on a Friday evening with no warning, various departments who
:11:09. > :11:13.it affects apparently didn't know about it. What is it that makes you
:11:14. > :11:16.want, if you like, to forgive this policy, given that everything you
:11:17. > :11:19.stand for and everything you're really saying suggest it's not
:11:20. > :11:28.actually a policy that's fit for purpose? Well, it's a new
:11:29. > :11:33.administration. It has been focussed on domestic circumstances, meeting
:11:34. > :11:39.campaign promises. There could be criticism of the process by which
:11:40. > :11:45.this decision was made and the way it was announced. It does
:11:46. > :11:52.discriminate against Muslims, it does. Basically they're all Muslim
:11:53. > :11:56.majority countries and it allows for exceptions that are minority
:11:57. > :11:59.religions in the countries specificed. He might as well have
:12:00. > :12:03.just said Muslims in those countries. Unfortunately, much of
:12:04. > :12:08.the terrorism that we experience in the world today comes out of Islamic
:12:09. > :12:13.majority countries, because they're going through a terrible crisis,
:12:14. > :12:18.part of the response to that crisis has been this extremism and terror.
:12:19. > :12:27.But there are more than 40 other Muslim countries that are not on the
:12:28. > :12:30.list. Has started a necessary debate. -- this has started a
:12:31. > :12:33.necessary debate. Maybe it should have been done differently. But I
:12:34. > :12:38.hope in the end it will come to a judicious point on what needs to be
:12:39. > :12:42.done to protect us, but also, to be attentive to other concerns that we
:12:43. > :12:45.have, including what we stand for, there cannot be a religious test for
:12:46. > :12:49.visitors and immigrants to the United States. You've steered a
:12:50. > :12:52.very, very fine balanced line in everything you've said. Thank you
:12:53. > :12:55.very much for joining us. It's great to be with you.
:12:56. > :12:57.Well, the issue is obviously a tricky one for the UK.
:12:58. > :13:00.On Friday, we were meant to be proud of our friendship
:13:01. > :13:03.By Saturday morning, it was a potential embarrassment.
:13:04. > :13:05.Most British politicians have no truck with the Trump
:13:06. > :13:08.immigration ban at all but the issue here is how far
:13:09. > :13:10.we should criticise, given that we are in the market
:13:11. > :13:15.The timing of the President's Executive Order on Friday makes it
:13:16. > :13:19.The ban came within hours of the Prime Minister sitting
:13:20. > :13:26.Here's the Shadow Foreign Secretary in the Commons today.
:13:27. > :13:32.The order was signed barely an hour or two after the Prime Minister had
:13:33. > :13:35.left the White House. Can he tell us, in their discussions about
:13:36. > :13:39.terrorism and security, was this imminent order mentioned? Because I
:13:40. > :13:42.don't know, Mr Speaker, what's worse - that the President would have such
:13:43. > :13:47.little respect for the Prime Minister that he wouldn't think of
:13:48. > :13:50.telling her or that he did and that she didn't think it sounded wrong.
:13:51. > :13:54.It would be odd if she didn't have some foreknowledge,
:13:55. > :13:57.as Reuters knew about the ban and were reporting that was poised
:13:58. > :14:00.to happen while she was sitting in the White House with the President.
:14:01. > :14:06.Well, with me is our political editor, Nick Watt.
:14:07. > :14:13.Let's talk about the state visit. We have this lovely back drop of a
:14:14. > :14:17.carriage there. Any hint of a U-turn at all. We are not in U-turn
:14:18. > :14:21.territory. Downing Street is making clear this visit will go ahead. I
:14:22. > :14:24.was speaking to one senior Tory this evening who says that this could put
:14:25. > :14:29.the Queen in an embarrassing position. The Government is saying
:14:30. > :14:33.during his 65 year reign she has met heads of state that are not angels.
:14:34. > :14:44.I am told that Number Ten is being advised it would be risky -- and
:14:45. > :14:47.that there could be protests by Opposition parties. Some are
:14:48. > :14:50.wondering whether it's wise to go ahead with the visit so soon. Trump
:14:51. > :14:55.supporters saying it will be in the first week of June. The ministers
:14:56. > :14:58.say if only we could wait until the Autumn, perhaps tempers would cool
:14:59. > :15:04.by then. The feeling in Whitehall is that Downing Street are in the
:15:05. > :15:07.driving seat for this visit. The formal procedures have been followed
:15:08. > :15:11.and the right people have been consulted, but one well placed
:15:12. > :15:18.source said to me, this was our ace card to play and we played it early
:15:19. > :15:26.How well generally has Theresa May handled this whole weekend? Theresa
:15:27. > :15:31.May was praised quite widely for performing a delicate balancing act
:15:32. > :15:36.at the White House. The following day she felt less certain when she
:15:37. > :15:41.was unable to offer an opinion on the Donald Trump presidential order
:15:42. > :15:45.on travel. This evening, on Channel 4 News, it was reported that Theresa
:15:46. > :15:50.May was alerted to elements of this executive order in the White House
:15:51. > :15:54.on Friday. Downing Street will not comment on the content of private
:15:55. > :15:59.conversations. I understand Theresa May was alerted to the fact there
:16:00. > :16:06.would be a ban on refugees but not alerted to the seven countries, and
:16:07. > :16:08.she was not told that initially it would apply to dual citizens
:16:09. > :16:12.therefore apply to some British citizens. There is a feeling in
:16:13. > :16:16.Whitehall this evening amongst ministerial circles that, if the
:16:17. > :16:21.Prime Minister has such a wonderful rapport with the president, why
:16:22. > :16:23.didn't she pick up the phone to him? Why didn't she asked ministers to do
:16:24. > :16:25.it? There have been sizeable
:16:26. > :16:26.demonstrations this You can see the pictures
:16:27. > :16:31.from London. And that petition to cancel
:16:32. > :16:36.the state visit is at about one and a half million,
:16:37. > :16:39.or it was the last time I looked. There is one going now,
:16:40. > :16:51.in favour of a state visit I am joined now by Oliver Letwin and
:16:52. > :16:58.Stella Crecy. If Donald Trump was invited to go to the house of
:16:59. > :17:02.parliament, would you go cracker -- go? I would like to speak to him
:17:03. > :17:09.face to face. There is a big difference between engaging with
:17:10. > :17:15.America and indulging him. Rolling out the red carpet, giving him the
:17:16. > :17:19.same treatment we gave people like Nelson Mandela, it would basically
:17:20. > :17:23.be a way of saying, what you did, we are fine with it. I do not think the
:17:24. > :17:27.British public is fine with it. They are horrified by the idea the Prime
:17:28. > :17:31.Minister herself knew about this, was face-to-face with the man, had
:17:32. > :17:38.an opportunity to say, are you sure this is a good idea? Look at the
:17:39. > :17:43.damage it will do. She did not say anything. Does it matter if Theresa
:17:44. > :17:48.May knew and did not think to lobby against it or mention, when she came
:17:49. > :17:52.out, or have a prepared statement? On Saturday she seemed to be taken
:17:53. > :17:59.aback when she was asked about on Saturday evening. Imagine the other
:18:00. > :18:05.way around. Suppose this was actually a question of the UK's
:18:06. > :18:10.immigration policy about which Stella might agree or disagree.
:18:11. > :18:15.Suppose we asked the question, do we think that Mr Trump, or the American
:18:16. > :18:20.public or American politicians should be deciding our policy, there
:18:21. > :18:24.would be outrage. It is the same this way around stop this and I have
:18:25. > :18:28.a new president. It might not have been a president I would
:18:29. > :18:37.particularly have voted for, had I been American. But I am not and I do
:18:38. > :18:43.not get to decide the policies. We have a relationship with America.
:18:44. > :18:48.Oliver, he is banning refugees. There are some things in life that
:18:49. > :18:52.are so wrong, you have to say, this is wrong. It does not take much
:18:53. > :18:57.thought. It is about the values you stand for. Let alone the seven
:18:58. > :19:02.countries involved and the fact it is focusing on Muslims. She should
:19:03. > :19:07.have said, Mr President, this is not the right thing to do that you do
:19:08. > :19:12.not pull punches on something as basic and principled as that. Are
:19:13. > :19:17.you an opponent of the death penalty? Yes, I am. Do think a large
:19:18. > :19:23.number of people in China are put to death every year? Yes. She was in
:19:24. > :19:29.the room with him she had an opportunity to discuss this. Putting
:19:30. > :19:36.him on a platform with Nelson Mandela. Absolutely. We have called
:19:37. > :19:41.for an ethical foreign policy. It is not just about holding their hands
:19:42. > :19:45.but holding our tongues as well. What she has done is not speak up
:19:46. > :19:49.for the values of tolerance we are so proud of in Britain. That is why
:19:50. > :19:53.there are thousands of people on the streets tonight. I disagree. I think
:19:54. > :19:57.the reason we have the relationships we have is to try to manage the
:19:58. > :20:04.world in a peaceful and stable way in the interests of our people and
:20:05. > :20:07.also the interests of people in the world. You do not get that by
:20:08. > :20:09.lecturing and hectoring other countries about what their policy
:20:10. > :20:15.should be. Do you think banning Muslims from America or make the
:20:16. > :20:21.world more safe? The only people promoting this policy is Isis. We
:20:22. > :20:26.have just heard a Muslim ambassador explaining that he hoped at the end
:20:27. > :20:31.of this temporary ban there would be a better policy. I do not know if
:20:32. > :20:37.there will be or not. It is not my business and it is not your
:20:38. > :20:43.business. This is very interesting. If it is about a small domestic
:20:44. > :20:46.matter in United States policy, we would not want to interfere. Do you
:20:47. > :20:53.think there is anything that America can do in its role as biggest free
:20:54. > :21:00.country in the modern world, that would mean legitimacy? If there are
:21:01. > :21:09.things that I personally affect our interests... If it is immoral and
:21:10. > :21:17.crosses a certain line... We should not try to tell the Russians, or the
:21:18. > :21:21.Chinese... We have had a view on Russia invading Crimea. Crimea is a
:21:22. > :21:25.different thing. That puts the stability of Eastern Europe at risk
:21:26. > :21:32.and that puts the stability of western Europe at risk. If Mr Trump
:21:33. > :21:38.word to invade the Crimea, I would take the same view. What about
:21:39. > :21:44.Muslims who are fearful about the rise in Islamophobia. I want to know
:21:45. > :21:48.how much worse it has to get? It is only his second week in office
:21:49. > :21:54.before this government recognises the merit. We can stand up and say,
:21:55. > :22:01.this is not right. That is a concern people have. Because we have less to
:22:02. > :22:15.be used, the Brexit foreign policy is Trump and Erdogan. I do not think
:22:16. > :22:19.it is that way. Over the past 30, 40 years, under the Blair
:22:20. > :22:23.administration certainly, we took too much of an imperialist view we
:22:24. > :22:27.can manage other people's is for them. It did not work well. We
:22:28. > :22:32.should try to have sensible relationships with great powers,
:22:33. > :22:36.small powers, trading relationships, and except we no longer run the
:22:37. > :22:41.world. That does not mean we should adopt causes we do not believe him.
:22:42. > :22:46.We should believe on our policies and stick to it. We very much
:22:47. > :22:51.disagree on whether it has an impact either on our communities, because
:22:52. > :22:55.it spreads division and hate, or an impact on our world. Future
:22:56. > :22:59.generations will ask, did you get a great trade deal? No, they will ask,
:23:00. > :23:09.what did you do to stop the hate? With so much going on,
:23:10. > :23:11.what better time to launch a new Newsnight slot,
:23:12. > :23:13.which we are calling Viewsnight. The clue is in the title -
:23:14. > :23:16.a two minute chance for someone to make an argument
:23:17. > :23:18.on our programme. We'll do one each day this week -
:23:19. > :23:22.a big idea pertaining to the year - but we won't keep that
:23:23. > :23:24.pace up forever. He used to edit the Radio 4 Today
:23:25. > :23:28.programme, then went rogue and now he writes
:23:29. > :23:34.for the Spectator, among others. Sooner or later, the howling
:23:35. > :23:48.at the moon must die down. The caterwauling and shrieking from
:23:49. > :23:51.the affluent, well mannered, but tragically gained said liberal
:23:52. > :23:54.middle classes here and across the They will surely realise
:23:55. > :23:59.that the democratic will cannot be subverted simply by screaming
:24:00. > :24:02.or indeed setting fire to their own And when the penny finally drops,
:24:03. > :24:06.they will realise the The Brexit and the election
:24:07. > :24:12.of Donald Trump and the huge growth of populist
:24:13. > :24:14.movements across Europe. It's not simply a case
:24:15. > :24:16.of the uneducated, bigoted Untermensch, sticking it
:24:17. > :24:21.to the liberal elite out of Now it passages a huge paradigms
:24:22. > :24:27.shift, away from the vapid liberalism which has kept
:24:28. > :24:30.the poorest of us poor and with less pleasant lives, and which has caused
:24:31. > :24:34.misery and mayhem in the Middle East And, yes, sure, it was
:24:35. > :24:41.in part a socially conservative reaction
:24:42. > :24:47.against the identity politics and the infantile leftism
:24:48. > :24:49.of the last three decades. But it was also a reaction
:24:50. > :24:52.against the devil take the hindmost The desire for change
:24:53. > :24:59.then does not simply come from the right,
:25:00. > :25:02.it also comes from the left. However, if you're a liberal,
:25:03. > :25:04.sorry, your safe space Certainly a greater belief
:25:05. > :25:08.in the nation state and in patriotism and a concomitant
:25:09. > :25:10.disdain for meddling in the affairs of other
:25:11. > :25:13.independent countries. Less immigration, I suspect,
:25:14. > :25:16.and therefore less exploitation of And a certain acerbity towards abuse
:25:17. > :25:24.of the welfare state. In future, maybe, it will be
:25:25. > :25:27.a case of if you don't Also, within each country,
:25:28. > :25:34.a refusal to accept the widening inequalities in our
:25:35. > :25:37.society, and to make sure that the Believe me, this paradigm shift has
:25:38. > :25:50.been a long time coming. We are not trying to court favour
:25:51. > :25:56.with any particular viewpoint We will be bringing
:25:57. > :25:59.you a range of opinions. And they'll all be on our Facebook
:26:00. > :26:04.page as well as on TV. When the Brexit negotiation gets
:26:05. > :26:07.going, we may hear more about a man He's a member of the European
:26:08. > :26:11.parliament, and has been picked as that parliament's
:26:12. > :26:14.Brexit front man. He's a former Belgian
:26:15. > :26:16.Prime Minister as well, and has just written a book
:26:17. > :26:18.about the EU called Now you need to hand it to him -
:26:19. > :26:24.he doesn't mince his words Here he is attacking one
:26:25. > :26:42.of our MEPs in the European Nigel barrage has the whole morning
:26:43. > :26:47.talked about salaries and biggest waste of money. You know,
:26:48. > :26:52.colleagues, what I think is the biggest waste of money in European
:26:53. > :27:05.Union today, there is a salary we up paying to Nigel barrage. That is a
:27:06. > :27:13.big waste of money. -- Farage. You are never there in meetings about
:27:14. > :27:17.the fishing policy. In 2012 but no attendance. It is fantastic what
:27:18. > :27:24.you're doing. You're coming here saying it is a scandal and you pay
:27:25. > :27:27.yourself a salary without doing any Labour in your own committee. That
:27:28. > :27:30.is the reality of your own opinion today.
:27:31. > :27:32.Now his book is everything that eurosceptics have
:27:33. > :27:35.It is an unembarrassed call for a proper US-like federal
:27:36. > :27:38.It's almost counter cultural these days,
:27:39. > :27:40.partly because many are thinking the nation state is reasserting
:27:41. > :27:43.itself as the unit people feel and allegiance to.
:27:44. > :27:46.And also because, his call to make the EU more like the US is coming
:27:47. > :27:49.at a time when many think the US is far from a perfect model.
:27:50. > :28:02.A very good evening to you. What is it when you see Theresa May and
:28:03. > :28:09.Trump? What did you think when they were standing together? Does Britain
:28:10. > :28:13.have good choices out of the EU? What was in anyway depressing from
:28:14. > :28:19.my point of view was what Trump said about the European Union. He said,
:28:20. > :28:26.oh, yeah, I think other countries will go out the European Union, the
:28:27. > :28:30.European Union will disintegrate. I think that Europe, for the moment,
:28:31. > :28:34.is squeezed between a populist president in America who want a
:28:35. > :28:39.disintegration of the union and an autocrat on the other side, Vladimir
:28:40. > :28:46.Putin, who once also to defy Europe. On top of that we have the political
:28:47. > :28:51.radical Islam. I think that Europe, for the moment, has an excess ten...
:28:52. > :28:57.We live in an existential moment for Europeans. You mentioned Putin and
:28:58. > :29:01.Trump but you did not talk about the threat that the public in Europe are
:29:02. > :29:08.voting all over the place, people who, if not fascists, are flirting
:29:09. > :29:14.with it. In Austria, 46% are on the far right. It is inside your abuse
:29:15. > :29:19.should be worrying about, not Trump. I think we can face this, find a
:29:20. > :29:23.solution by that, by coming forward with a vision for the future, for
:29:24. > :29:30.the European Union. The reason people are falling into this trap is
:29:31. > :29:37.because boticker leaders in Europe are showing the way forward. Saying,
:29:38. > :29:42.if you want to really solve the problem of the migration crisis, the
:29:43. > :29:53.economic bailout of the financial crisis. We need a more united Europe
:29:54. > :29:58.and not disintegrated Europe. How should nationalism solve the
:29:59. > :30:03.problems we are facing today in Europe? Climate change? Should it be
:30:04. > :30:12.sold by nationalism. All the migration flow? This is a very basic
:30:13. > :30:20.issue. When people in Germany say, do they mean Europeans or Germans?
:30:21. > :30:24.Certainly in the UK, probably only in Belgium, where you come from.
:30:25. > :30:32.I think it's already thousands of mails from Britain, British citizens
:30:33. > :30:36.telling me, I want to be an EU citizens, I don't want to break up
:30:37. > :30:41.the link with Europe. Because Europe that belongs to my civilisation, my
:30:42. > :30:46.culture, my literature, my architecture. It's true that people
:30:47. > :30:53.are feeling German or Italian or British but also European, an
:30:54. > :30:58.identity is not one identity. No. An identity are different layers and
:30:59. > :31:03.every person has his own identity. Don't give it to the politicians to
:31:04. > :31:07.discuss and define what identity is. You propose defence unity, banking
:31:08. > :31:12.unity, fiscal unity, political union. Basically it's the full
:31:13. > :31:17.works. That is what Euro-sceptics said people were plotting and wanted
:31:18. > :31:20.inside the continent of Europe. That's, they said, why we should
:31:21. > :31:24.leave the project. In a way, they were right. Britain, you agree,
:31:25. > :31:30.Britain would never sign up ever, ever sign up to the manifesto you're
:31:31. > :31:37.proposing, a United States of Europe. Winston Churchill for the
:31:38. > :31:41.first time said a United States of Europe. The problem of Europe, let's
:31:42. > :31:46.be honest, is not that this is a big European Union because the budget of
:31:47. > :31:53.the European Union is only 1% of the European GDP. The problem is that it
:31:54. > :31:58.is still a loose confederation of nation states based on the unanimity
:31:59. > :32:02.rule. We know that an organisation based on the unanimity rule where 28
:32:03. > :32:05.heads of state and government have to agree, it acts always too little
:32:06. > :32:09.too late. That is the problem of the union today. Not fit for purpose,
:32:10. > :32:14.not effective, always too little too late. Therefore we need to reform
:32:15. > :32:18.it. Yeah, and that is the, this book is the manifesto for that direction.
:32:19. > :32:24.Let's talk about Brexit. You have a Brexit job. You heard Theresa May's
:32:25. > :32:27.speech a couple of weeks back, where she outlined her vision of what
:32:28. > :32:30.we're aiming for. Some said that was a British wanting their cake and
:32:31. > :32:35.eating it, they wanted to be in, then not to be in, but in all the
:32:36. > :32:38.good bits and not the bad bits. Was that your perception. I think it's a
:32:39. > :32:43.good summary. You don't think you can work with what she said? What
:32:44. > :32:46.she said was we are out of the European Union, out of the single
:32:47. > :32:51.market, out of the customs union, out of the European Court of
:32:52. > :32:55.Justice. And then maybe we could have this European programme that
:32:56. > :33:01.interest us - that will not work naturally. Why doesn't it work? Why
:33:02. > :33:05.not? It is in your interest to let us cooperate with you. Why wouldn't
:33:06. > :33:09.you? My idea was totally different was against Brexit. I thought that
:33:10. > :33:13.even the best solution should be that Britain is still part of the
:33:14. > :33:16.single market. Not only for us, but in the main interests of the British
:33:17. > :33:21.industry, British economy and the British workers. Let's take a very
:33:22. > :33:24.specific one, the customs union, she said we'll leave the customs union
:33:25. > :33:28.but we would like to have, for example, a particular deal for the
:33:29. > :33:32.car industry, so that supply chains - Sorry - Will that work or not? I
:33:33. > :33:37.don't think that you can do that. Why not? That is what I call pick
:33:38. > :33:42.and choose policy, they're saying OK we go out of every European
:33:43. > :33:46.corporation and then I take the very interesting parts for us, without
:33:47. > :33:50.taking also the obligations, without also the payments that are necessary
:33:51. > :33:56.for that. I don't think that will work. We need a fair partnership.
:33:57. > :34:01.You cannot create a status for countries outside the European Union
:34:02. > :34:07.where it's even more favourable than for the countries who are members of
:34:08. > :34:10.the European Union. It's more favourable whichever way you do it.
:34:11. > :34:15.No taxpayer in Europe would accept that. I think that a fair
:34:16. > :34:23.partnership is possible. And I think also that Europe has to be generous
:34:24. > :34:27.in a certain way towards not specific country, towards this
:34:28. > :34:31.individual citizens in the UK, who want to retake their citizenship.
:34:32. > :34:37.You'll let me get an EU passport? No, no. Not a passport, we know what
:34:38. > :34:41.passport means today. No, no, what I'm thinking about is that maybe
:34:42. > :34:47.some vaengs of the European citizenship could be kept for those
:34:48. > :34:51.people in the UK who want to have them, in the future. That is a
:34:52. > :34:55.generous offer. It's my personal opinion, not the opinion of the
:34:56. > :35:00.European Parliament or the negotiators, but I think we should
:35:01. > :35:04.offer that to those individuals who want it, who are still thinking why
:35:05. > :35:08.Britain has taken that decision. Let's go through some of the other
:35:09. > :35:12.specifics. Financial services, if there's no special deal for the car
:35:13. > :35:16.industry, I mean the financial services industry regulation is
:35:17. > :35:20.equivalent to yours - I will not start here with saying yeah, what we
:35:21. > :35:25.need for the financial service, for the car industry. The basic
:35:26. > :35:28.principle is we don't, cherry-picking will not be allowed.
:35:29. > :35:32.This is an important one, a technical point in a way, not much
:35:33. > :35:38.talked about, but very important. Can we negotiate a trade deal for
:35:39. > :35:42.Britain and the EU, can we negotiate that with you bhiel we're still --
:35:43. > :35:46.while we're talking about the divorce and the amount of money we
:35:47. > :35:50.have to pay or do we have to settle the details of the divorce first and
:35:51. > :35:55.then talk trade? The treaty is clear on this. The take Article 50 of the
:35:56. > :35:59.treaty and it indicates what needs to be done. First of all, withdrawal
:36:00. > :36:04.agreement needs to be agreed and that in the light of the future
:36:05. > :36:10.relationship and partnership with the UK. So you need also to have
:36:11. > :36:14.already at that moment a broad idea of what will be the future
:36:15. > :36:21.relationship. That's exactly what it says. Informal talks can go on both
:36:22. > :36:25.tracks during the two years? You cannot even conclude even on a
:36:26. > :36:30.framework on the future relationship if first of all you don't have the
:36:31. > :36:34.withdrawal agreement. Article 50 is very clear. For the moment, we are
:36:35. > :36:38.not in that stage. We are waiting in fact for the triggering of Article
:36:39. > :36:42.50, by the end of March. Then only I think by the end of May, beginning
:36:43. > :36:45.of June, we can start the negotiations. People have been
:36:46. > :36:51.saying from the European side, Britain has to pay 60 billion euros
:36:52. > :36:53.for payments to pensions of existing staff or commitments made while
:36:54. > :36:57.Britain is a member. Is that serious? The only thing that I know
:36:58. > :37:01.is that the outstanding commitments now and the future outstanding
:37:02. > :37:06.commitments before Britain will leave the European Union in total
:37:07. > :37:09.will be around 600 billion of euros. That's the reality. You can find
:37:10. > :37:11.that in the accounts of the European Union. We will have a lot to talk
:37:12. > :37:19.about. Thanks very much indeed. How have you been getting
:37:20. > :37:21.on with 'Dry January', One minute you're promising yourself
:37:22. > :37:25.you'll get fit and spend more time The next, you're slumped
:37:26. > :37:28.on the sofa watching this show. But vegans have been urging us
:37:29. > :37:31.all to do without meat and dairy this month in an experiment they're
:37:32. > :37:33.calling "veganuary". And what lengths will some vegans go
:37:34. > :37:38.to to make carnivores think again? As the month comes to end, here's
:37:39. > :37:42.own guilty pleasure, Stephen Smith. In her new series, telly
:37:43. > :37:55.chef Nigella Lawson puts on a mouth-watering buffet
:37:56. > :38:04.of vegan sweet meats. That's all well and good,
:38:05. > :38:07.but we wanted to go deeper into this We are approaching the climax
:38:08. > :38:11.of a month-long campaign to get people to go vegan,
:38:12. > :38:16.it's called janu-vegan. It doesn't always
:38:17. > :38:26.roll off the tongue. We like to say it's the hardest part
:38:27. > :38:30.of the month - just saying it! One of the inspirations
:38:31. > :38:35.was Movember. We wanted a month with the name that
:38:36. > :38:38.could become a part of tje annual calendar to encourage people to try
:38:39. > :38:43.vegan for the month of January. At this vegan Expo et
:38:44. > :38:47.Alexandra Palace in London, people are sampling food free
:38:48. > :38:54.of meat and dairy. We marinate it, it's
:38:55. > :39:02.my uncle's recipe. Everybody else that works
:39:03. > :39:08.here is pretty much vegan. I did once try to be a vegetarian
:39:09. > :39:15.when I was about 30. Then I got so depressed about never
:39:16. > :39:21.eating sausages again, that I had I was very young when I first became
:39:22. > :39:33.vegetarian, I thought, "Oh, Veganism is a much more
:39:34. > :39:37.political argument. One of the things about living
:39:38. > :39:40.with Dolly, I've really intelectually come down to the idea
:39:41. > :39:46.that it is correct that we should be vegetarian and probably vegan,
:39:47. > :39:50.but I just don't have the willpower Away from Ally Pally,
:39:51. > :39:59.another, more assertive side In this action outside a fast food
:40:00. > :40:06.restaurant in the West End, campaigners show footage
:40:07. > :40:09.of what they say is mistreatment They can honestly move on,
:40:10. > :40:17.if they find it too upsetting At the same time, people
:40:18. > :40:21.have a natural curiosity We have the masks on to draw
:40:22. > :40:25.attention to ourselves and dehumanise us as well and make
:40:26. > :40:28.it about the footage we're showing. Our aim is for total
:40:29. > :40:30.animal liberation. We want to end all animal
:40:31. > :40:34.exploitation for food, clothing, animal testing
:40:35. > :40:36.or animals in entertainment. I hear what they're saying,
:40:37. > :40:39.OK animals are treated cruelly in these environments,
:40:40. > :40:45.but I love chicken too much. I was going to go to Burger King,
:40:46. > :40:48.but I'm going to skip that now. Because, come on man,
:40:49. > :41:00.they're not out here for no reason. Back to Veganuary and veggie
:41:01. > :41:03.burgers, how many of us could go a month or more without red meat
:41:04. > :41:08.or an egg, come to that? How many people backslide
:41:09. > :41:12.into toad in the hole From the 2016 participants, 63%
:41:13. > :41:24.were still vegan six months later. The BBC is scratching around
:41:25. > :41:27.for a follow up to Bake Off, what about your dad some
:41:28. > :41:32.vegan cake experience. Is that what it's going to be
:41:33. > :42:00.called, some vegan cake experience? Last day for a tax return, if you
:42:01. > :42:02.need to do one. In the meantime, very good night.