:00:00. > :00:07.that goes right to the heart of the Brexit campaign.
:00:08. > :00:09.Did a feud between the then Prime Minister
:00:10. > :00:14.and the editor of the Daily Mail help to shape how the nation voted?
:00:15. > :00:16.Newsnight understands Paul Dacre believes
:00:17. > :00:22.David Cameron was trying to have him removed.
:00:23. > :00:24.What does a feud between the country's most powerful figures
:00:25. > :00:27.tell you about how the battle was lost and won?
:00:28. > :00:31.is that this was a very important engine of the result.
:00:32. > :00:34.And Dacre versus Cameron - Dacre won. Absolutely.
:00:35. > :00:39.We'll hear from the Sun's former political editor, Trevor Kavanagh.
:00:40. > :00:42.Also tonight, the Home Secretary says Donald Trump's
:00:43. > :00:46.immigration travel ban could become a propaganda tool for Isis.
:00:47. > :00:53.This came out of thin air, as a kind of a stage play,
:00:54. > :00:57.for some of the folks in the White House who seem to want drama.
:00:58. > :00:59.We speak live to the deputy assistant
:01:00. > :01:03.to the President of the United States.
:01:04. > :01:06.And Viewsnight - tonight Greece's former Finance Minister,
:01:07. > :01:12.We need to establish a universal basic income
:01:13. > :01:15.to be funded from the returns of capital, not tax.
:01:16. > :01:18.It's what I call universal basic dividend.
:01:19. > :01:21.This will allow us to spread the returns from automation
:01:22. > :01:35.Tonight, we bring you an extraordinary story
:01:36. > :01:38.that goes right to the heart of the Brexit campaign.
:01:39. > :01:41.It involves two of the country's most powerful men -
:01:42. > :01:43.the former Prime Minister David Cameron
:01:44. > :01:47.and the editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Dacre.
:01:48. > :01:50.Newsnight has learnt the Mail's editor believes
:01:51. > :01:52.Mr Cameron was trying to have him removed from his job,
:01:53. > :01:54.fearing he could not win the EU referendum
:01:55. > :01:57.whilst he was still at the helm of Britain's most popular newspaper.
:01:58. > :02:03.Lord Rothermere, who owns the newspaper group, was a Remainer.
:02:04. > :02:06.So did Prime Minister at the time seek the help of Lord Rothermere
:02:07. > :02:09.in removing what he felt would be the thorn in Cameron's side?
:02:10. > :02:24.The British people have spoken, and the answer is we're out.
:02:25. > :02:33.Cast your mind back to that heady summer of 2016,
:02:34. > :02:37.the Brexit campaign and the fallout from it,
:02:38. > :02:39.politics had never looked more brutal,
:02:40. > :02:44.watching some of the most powerful figures in the country
:02:45. > :02:47.knock the stuffing out of each other.
:02:48. > :02:51.Amidst the carnage, one particularly major casualty -
:02:52. > :02:55.just a year after his election, the Prime Minister had been felled.
:02:56. > :02:57.But for another of Britain's most powerful people,
:02:58. > :03:03.a man whose face you'll rarely see, Brexit marked the ultimate victory.
:03:04. > :03:08.but every day his message is received by millions.
:03:09. > :03:11.For 25 years, he's been the editor of the Daily Mail,
:03:12. > :03:18.In the run-up to the 2015 general election, his newspaper
:03:19. > :03:21.had savaged the Labour Party and championed Mr Cameron.
:03:22. > :03:24.But on Brexit, it had been Mr Cameron who'd been
:03:25. > :03:28.on the receiving end of a relentless Daily Mail assault.
:03:29. > :03:31.With the result in the balance, the Daily Mail had nailed
:03:32. > :03:37.its colours to the mast and won the sweetest of victories.
:03:38. > :03:39.Looking at the coverage at the time, you could be forgiven
:03:40. > :03:42.for wondering if it was about more than just Dacre's
:03:43. > :03:47.if it wasn't tinged by something rather personal.
:03:48. > :03:50.Well, now I can reveal an intriguing subplot to that whole Brexit
:03:51. > :03:56.campaign that might help explain the pretty brutal treatment
:03:57. > :04:02.of a Prime Minister he had so recently helped to get elected.
:04:03. > :04:09.I've learned that early in the campaign Paul Dacre
:04:10. > :04:11.heard something guaranteed to make any editor see red.
:04:12. > :04:15.He'd been told the Prime Minister was trying to get him sacked.
:04:16. > :04:17.This is the story of a very personal stand-off
:04:18. > :04:19.between two of the country's most powerful men.
:04:20. > :04:21.It's a story of how the pre-eminent figure
:04:22. > :04:25.in British journalism went to war with the Prime Minister and won.
:04:26. > :04:28.This is where it all began, almost exactly a year ago.
:04:29. > :04:31.David Cameron had a deal on Europe, one he hoped he could
:04:32. > :04:36.take to the country to persuade us to stay in the EU.
:04:37. > :04:42.and that is Paul Dacre, a man he needs to have on side.
:04:43. > :04:44.Dacre is invited to the private flat in Downing Street,
:04:45. > :04:49.From what I understand, the two chat amicably
:04:50. > :04:52.within the early-evening chaos of a family setting.
:04:53. > :04:58.The kids are still up, the TV's on, the two men share a glass of wine,
:04:59. > :05:02.and the Prime Minister asks his guest if he'll cut him some slack,
:05:03. > :05:07.just pull back a bit from some of the intense euroscepticism.
:05:08. > :05:09.The response from Mr Dacre is, I'm told, swift and uncompromising.
:05:10. > :05:13.He can't change his position on such a core principle,
:05:14. > :05:19.His readers, too, viscerally Eurosceptic -
:05:20. > :05:25.Then, I'm told, he points to the television,
:05:26. > :05:29.showing pictures of migrants arriving in southern Europe.
:05:30. > :05:31."Those are the pictures that will decide the outcome
:05:32. > :05:35.of the referendum," the Prime Minister is told.
:05:36. > :05:39.Over the coming weeks, Dacre sticks to his line.
:05:40. > :05:41.But not everyone at the paper is pro-Brexit.
:05:42. > :05:43.Lord Rothermere, who owns the Daily Mail,
:05:44. > :05:49.It will be Rothermere who Cameron approaches next.
:05:50. > :05:52.In March, Dacre learns something that leaves him incandescent.
:05:53. > :05:55.He's told the Prime Minister approached Viscount Rothermere
:05:56. > :06:01.with a view to having Dacre removed from his job.
:06:02. > :06:05.Is it conceivable that David Cameron would have requested
:06:06. > :06:10.Paul Dacre be removed from his post by his proprietor?
:06:11. > :06:16.with what I know to be the case about the attitude at the very apex
:06:17. > :06:17.of the Cameron government about Dacre.
:06:18. > :06:24.A member of the Cameron government told me very recently
:06:25. > :06:28.that there could be no revival in centrism in this country
:06:29. > :06:33.as long as Paul Dacre was editor of the Mail.
:06:34. > :06:36.And that was presented to me as an absolute precondition
:06:37. > :06:38.of any advance of the centre-right or centre-left,
:06:39. > :06:45.You're operating here in a context where one individual, one editor,
:06:46. > :06:51.is regarded as being of supreme importance in their political
:06:52. > :06:54.universe, as if the Daily Mail is a kind of planet which exercises
:06:55. > :07:00.a huge gravitational pull over the whole of the print media.
:07:01. > :07:06.A spokesman from Lord Rothermere's office refused to confirm or deny
:07:07. > :07:08.Newsnight's story but added, over the years, Lord Rothermere
:07:09. > :07:11.has been lent on by more than one Prime Minister to remove
:07:12. > :07:16.but as he told Lord Justice Leveson on oath,
:07:17. > :07:20.he does not interfere with the editorial policies of his papers.
:07:21. > :07:21.The relationship between David Cameron and Paul Dacre
:07:22. > :07:29.Back in 2005, Tory hopefuls lined up to lead the party.
:07:30. > :07:33.Paul Dacre originally backed Ken Clarke, an arch Europhile.
:07:34. > :07:37.But as Cameron's popularity grew, he attracted the Mail's backing,
:07:38. > :07:42.even though, politically, the two men were often at odds.
:07:43. > :07:44.Of course, there's always a honeymoon when a leader
:07:45. > :07:50.comes in who has the makings of a potential Prime Minister.
:07:51. > :07:52.But Cameron in 2005 hit the ground running with
:07:53. > :07:55.his modernisation agenda, which was green, it was about recycling,
:07:56. > :07:58.it was about gay rights, it was about being nice to hoodies.
:07:59. > :08:01.It was almost as if he had drawn up a list
:08:02. > :08:07.And so, obviously, there was an ideological gap
:08:08. > :08:12.between the Mail and the Conservative Party at that point.
:08:13. > :08:15.And then there was Andy Coulson, a Murdoch old hand
:08:16. > :08:19.who David Cameron wanted to bring into the heart of his team.
:08:20. > :08:22.Dacre warned him not to - Cameron ignored him.
:08:23. > :08:25.Coulson would eventually be jailed for phone hacking.
:08:26. > :08:28.When Dacre found himself dragged in front of the Leveson Inquiry,
:08:29. > :08:30.he felt a palpable sense of grievance.
:08:31. > :08:35.Am I alone in detecting the rank smells of hypocrisy and revenge
:08:36. > :08:45.in the political classes' current moral indignation
:08:46. > :08:48.over a British press that dared to expose their greed and corruption?
:08:49. > :08:51.The same political class, incidentally,
:08:52. > :08:53.that, until a few weeks ago, had spent years
:08:54. > :08:55.indulging in sickening genuflection to the Murdoch press.
:08:56. > :08:58.I'm told Dacre refused to take Cameron's phone calls.
:08:59. > :09:02.there were plenty of reasons for Dacre to dislike Cameron.
:09:03. > :09:11.But would David Cameron, a sitting PM, who'd vowed to the papers
:09:12. > :09:14.to preserve their press freedom, really seek to oust an editor?
:09:15. > :09:17.I asked David Cameron if he'd tried to have Dacre removed.
:09:18. > :09:21.It is wrong to suggest that David Cameron believed
:09:22. > :09:23.he could determine who edits the Daily Mail.
:09:24. > :09:26.Remember, that is not actually the question we asked.
:09:27. > :09:31.It is a matter of public record that he made the case
:09:32. > :09:35.to argue that we give up our membership of the EU,
:09:36. > :09:38.particularly when they had not made the case before.
:09:39. > :09:42.This appears to refer to the Mail's former support
:09:43. > :09:47.His statement finishes by confirming those two meetings.
:09:48. > :09:50.He made this argument privately to the editor of the Daily Mail,
:09:51. > :09:53.Paul Dacre, and its proprietor, Lord Rothermere.
:09:54. > :09:56.From Paul Dacre's office, simply this.
:09:57. > :09:59.For 25 years, I have been given the freedom to edit the Mail
:10:00. > :10:01.on behalf of its readers without interference
:10:02. > :10:04.from Jonathan Rothermere or his father.
:10:05. > :10:08.It has been a great joy and privilege.
:10:09. > :10:10.June the 24th brings a new political dawn,
:10:11. > :10:17.Shortly afterwards, Dacre is told by Rothermere something he has known
:10:18. > :10:22.privately for months - that David Cameron wished him gone.
:10:23. > :10:25.But the big question remains - was the Mail's coverage,
:10:26. > :10:32.influenced by a very personal feud at its heart?
:10:33. > :10:35.What we can say unequivocally was that the most brash
:10:36. > :10:38.and noisy and confident newspaper in the country was stridently
:10:39. > :10:47.anti-EU, and increasingly bitter and hostile towards Cameron.
:10:48. > :10:49.So alleging causality is impossible,
:10:50. > :10:55.without access to the mind of every voter.
:10:56. > :11:05.is that this was a very important engine of the result.
:11:06. > :11:11.a newspaper editor who wielded too much power?
:11:12. > :11:16.Or an elected PM seeking to make his mark on the free press?
:11:17. > :11:36.Matthew Dodd and ending that report. Earlier I spoke to Trevor Kavanagh,
:11:37. > :11:40.the former political editor of the Sun, and I asked whether editors
:11:41. > :11:44.ever get removed by politicians. I've never heard of one in my
:11:45. > :11:50.lifetime being removed, and I think the idea that the person involved
:11:51. > :11:54.here, Paul Dacre, one of the biggest newspaper editors, one of the giants
:11:55. > :12:01.of Fleet Street, would be removed by a compliant proprietor is almost
:12:02. > :12:05.totally preposterous. Isn't it conceivable that a Prime Minister
:12:06. > :12:08.would want to be cut a bit of slack if he felt that he was facing the
:12:09. > :12:13.political fight of his life and wanted a fair playing field? It's
:12:14. > :12:19.easy to imagine David Cameron, in that period in March, just before
:12:20. > :12:22.the campaign got into its stride, wondering and worrying whether he
:12:23. > :12:26.was going to lose, and lose everything in the process, including
:12:27. > :12:30.his job, and therefore to panic, and start thinking what he could do to
:12:31. > :12:34.silence one of the biggest guns aimed in his direction. But the idea
:12:35. > :12:39.that you would ask Lord Rothermere to get rid of the man who has turned
:12:40. > :12:43.the Daily Mail into such a huge success is fantasy, and he would
:12:44. > :12:48.have been utterly deluded before he even began that conversation. What
:12:49. > :12:53.would tell us, then, about David Cameron at that time the political
:12:54. > :12:58.year? I think a man who saw everything beginning to disappear
:12:59. > :13:01.before his very eyes, he had just won the general election, against
:13:02. > :13:05.all the odds, or apparently against the odds, and here he was possibly
:13:06. > :13:09.about to lose the premiership because of its promise to hold a
:13:10. > :13:14.referendum. He must've been extremely alarmed, and to take a
:13:15. > :13:18.step like this would have been an act of sheer desperation. Isn't
:13:19. > :13:25.there an understanding perhaps that he saw Paul Dacre, a man who swore
:13:26. > :13:30.his priority was to Brexit, but thought, hang on, you supported Ken
:13:31. > :13:35.Clarke, a renowned Europhile, he is not being consistent on the stew at
:13:36. > :13:40.all? Well, supporting Ken Clarke is one thing, we at the Sun very nearly
:13:41. > :13:44.did the same thing when he was a candidate for the leadership of the
:13:45. > :13:51.Conservative Party, simply because of this sort of feisty personality.
:13:52. > :13:55.But in the end, we had the same advice is Paul Dacre, we could not
:13:56. > :13:59.get over the point that he was resolutely pro-European, so I don't
:14:00. > :14:03.think the two things are quite comparable. What does it reveal to
:14:04. > :14:08.you about the extent of Paul Dacre's power? He is a giant in Fleet
:14:09. > :14:12.Street, has been for many years, I cannot imagine anyone being stupid
:14:13. > :14:15.enough to think that a proprietor would simply dismissing, especially
:14:16. > :14:21.in the heat of battle over an issue as big as Brexit. And I think that
:14:22. > :14:28.he emerges stronger, in fact, from the result, because he was fervently
:14:29. > :14:34.in support, he campaigned vigorously for Brexit, Brexit was the outcome,
:14:35. > :14:38.and all his enemies or opponents are scattered before him on the
:14:39. > :14:45.battlefield. So who is there now to beat Paul Dacre?
:14:46. > :14:52.Is it conceivable that this falling out could have had an impact on the
:14:53. > :14:57.Daily Mail Brexit coverage or on the vote itself? It is true that Paul
:14:58. > :15:01.Dacre found out through other sources than Lord Rother mere
:15:02. > :15:06.himself that Cameron had asked for this, asked for him to be sacked.
:15:07. > :15:11.And no human being would be able to avoid the feeling that they were
:15:12. > :15:15.going to up the empty and double down on the campaign. I think the
:15:16. > :15:19.Daily Mail was vigorous and devoted an enormous amount of space to the
:15:20. > :15:22.campaign and the arguments. And I would be surprised if it did not
:15:23. > :15:26.have some effect on the outcome although I think a lot of other
:15:27. > :15:31.factors were involved and it might have been that the gap could have
:15:32. > :15:33.been even bigger. The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd,
:15:34. > :15:36.today issued a stark message about President Trump's immigration
:15:37. > :15:38.ban, warning that it could be used But a Reuters poll tonight
:15:39. > :15:44.shows that more 49% of Americans agree
:15:45. > :15:47.with it, whilst 41% This evening, in Washington,
:15:48. > :15:52.Democrats walked out of congressional hearings,
:15:53. > :15:54.in essence choosing to boycott the appointment of Steve Mnuchin
:15:55. > :15:57.as Treasury Secretary. Later this evening,
:15:58. > :16:03.we will hear Trump's choice for the Supreme Court -
:16:04. > :16:05.a decision which bears enormous cultural weight in America
:16:06. > :16:07.and is often bitterly divisive. Here's our diplomatic
:16:08. > :16:18.editor, Mark Urban. The Trump administration wants to
:16:19. > :16:22.move on from the entry ban story, not least because it believes that
:16:23. > :16:27.the president has done no more than implement a policy he campaigned on.
:16:28. > :16:35.He has an agenda that he articulated clearly to the American people. And
:16:36. > :16:39.it is his job to lay out that vision and the people he appoints and
:16:40. > :16:42.nominates and announces as staff members, their job is to fulfil
:16:43. > :16:48.that. But they do not like it they should not take the job. But it is
:16:49. > :16:52.the President's agenda we are fulfilling. But the row over the
:16:53. > :16:58.executive order, leaving people scattered across the world by very
:16:59. > :17:03.weight for further vetting, continues and lawsuits are expected.
:17:04. > :17:07.There may be challenges to this rule, clearly it was put together at
:17:08. > :17:11.the last minute without input from the people who enforce the law, the
:17:12. > :17:13.people who make them all, the people who are affected by the law.
:17:14. > :17:15.The executive order took shape last Friday.
:17:16. > :17:17.Key to the drafting was Steve Bannon, strategy
:17:18. > :17:19.director, and Stephen Miller, just 31, another staffer
:17:20. > :17:26.On Friday afternoon Trump signed the order at the Pentagon
:17:27. > :17:30.with the Vice President and Defence Secretary looking on.
:17:31. > :17:33.Sidelining key departments, the White House extended the ban
:17:34. > :17:37.to holders of valid visas and green card residents.
:17:38. > :17:39.Angry officials briefed journalists alleging a cavalier
:17:40. > :17:55.Stephen Miller saying we're not going to go to the other agencies or
:17:56. > :18:01.talk to the lawyers, we're going to do this all alone. You get a very
:18:02. > :18:06.young person in the White House on a power trip and you can just write
:18:07. > :18:08.executive orders and tell all your agencies to go to hell.
:18:09. > :18:10.Within an hour of the order being signed, detentions
:18:11. > :18:15.It didn't take long then for legal challenges to begin.
:18:16. > :18:18.By Sunday, some officials were rowing back on green card
:18:19. > :18:26.Influential senators were complaining about the implementation
:18:27. > :18:28.and reports appearing that border control officers were
:18:29. > :18:38.obstructing court orders to release some detainees.
:18:39. > :18:53.This executive order... Was mean-spirited and un-American. This
:18:54. > :18:59.came out of nowhere, there is no national emergency, no earthquake,
:19:00. > :19:05.no trees toppling, no bomb found in a waste can at Kennedy airport. This
:19:06. > :19:10.seems to have been in my common opinion as a former very tough
:19:11. > :19:16.prosecutor, this came from thin air as a kind of stage play for some
:19:17. > :19:17.folks in the White House who seem to want drama.
:19:18. > :19:19.By yesterday evening, acting Attorney General Sally Yates
:19:20. > :19:21.was instructing officials not to contest cases
:19:22. > :19:29.White House staffer Stephen Miller went on Fox News
:19:30. > :19:31.to defend her dismissal, but also to cast light
:19:32. > :19:40.on the broader concept behind Trump immigration policies.
:19:41. > :19:51.How do we keep this country falling into the same trap as happened to
:19:52. > :19:54.places like Germany and France. We have permit intergenerational
:19:55. > :19:56.problem of Islamic radicalism that becomes a routine feature of life in
:19:57. > :19:58.those countries. New normal. This afternoon the Homeland Security
:19:59. > :20:04.secretary gave a robust defence of administration policy
:20:05. > :20:06.but there were nods too towards the failure of coordination,
:20:07. > :20:09.a ragged and imperfect process that Trump's appointees as they get
:20:10. > :20:28.a grip of their departments, As you have more and more Cabinet
:20:29. > :20:31.officials and you start to seek deputy secretaries getting
:20:32. > :20:36.confirmed, there will likely be more bureaucratic pushback. The question
:20:37. > :20:39.is even if there is pushed back whether it actually matters. Again
:20:40. > :20:45.proximity is power in Washington and the factors Stephen Bannon and
:20:46. > :20:49.Stephen Miller have the closest proximity to President Trump. Until
:20:50. > :20:52.President Trump Caesar believes their advice is hurting him
:20:53. > :20:55.politically he will continue to listen to them.
:20:56. > :20:57.With the entry ban, as with many other Trump policies,
:20:58. > :21:01.The Supreme Court could provide the hearing of last resort.
:21:02. > :21:03.Later this evening the president is expected to announce his
:21:04. > :21:05.appointment of a right leaning candidate to a vacant
:21:06. > :21:15.Joining me from Washington now is Sebastian Gorka
:21:16. > :21:16.who is Deputy Assistant to the President
:21:17. > :21:33.Sebastian, the sacking of Sally Yates set the bar quite high, does
:21:34. > :21:43.the president intend to get rid of everyone who refuses to execute his
:21:44. > :21:48.ideas? That is the sort of argument I would not expect from the BBC. Let
:21:49. > :21:52.us not get carried away. Sean Spicer simply sent a message in his
:21:53. > :21:57.masterful press conference yesterday afternoon where he said we have a
:21:58. > :22:03.new president, if there are members of the bureaucracy who do not wish
:22:04. > :22:07.to execute the policies of the new president well come in a private
:22:08. > :22:12.company those individuals would have to resign or be fired. The issue is
:22:13. > :22:16.does someone who works as a federal employee wish to implement the
:22:17. > :22:22.policies of the new president. That simple. I'm sorry you find me
:22:23. > :22:25.extreme, some 900 people have signed notices or petition saying they
:22:26. > :22:32.disagree with these executive orders. Will you make moves to get
:22:33. > :22:38.rid of them all? That is not my call, not my job to do it. Should
:22:39. > :22:42.president Trump do that? Should a CEO get rid of people who do not
:22:43. > :22:50.want to work in his company and abide by his rules? If the BBC had
:22:51. > :22:53.employees that completely acted in ways flagrant to the request of the
:22:54. > :22:59.governor and his actual policies, what would happen to them? So the
:23:00. > :23:03.answer is yes, then. She assumed that she was in her job to uphold
:23:04. > :23:12.the law and that she could not uphold the law by carrying out his
:23:13. > :23:15.demands. I think she fell victim to the politicisation of national
:23:16. > :23:22.security. The fact is this order is based upon an Obama identification
:23:23. > :23:27.of seven nations of primary concern to the United States when it comes
:23:28. > :23:30.to immigration. So we are acting on analysis from the last
:23:31. > :23:38.administration. We simply wanted to make sure there was no further
:23:39. > :23:43.threat and 109 people were slightly delayed out of 325,000 entering
:23:44. > :23:46.America on Saturday. If that is too much for someone to execute that
:23:47. > :23:50.mission then they will play the consequence. And there was no
:23:51. > :23:55.national emergency and you had to roll back on key elements. Let me
:23:56. > :23:59.just bring in Katie, a Reuters poll tonight shows whatever you think the
:24:00. > :24:06.Liberals and the airports are saying that the majority of Americans agree
:24:07. > :24:10.with this band. That is kind of a shocking number and I just have to
:24:11. > :24:14.say also that the job of a civil servant in this country is not just
:24:15. > :24:20.to obey the whims of the Roman emperor, of the leader, you know it
:24:21. > :24:24.is to uphold the Constitution. And they have been strong and persuasive
:24:25. > :24:28.arguments advanced that show that this executive order is not
:24:29. > :24:35.constitutional and is very contrary to the American idea as it has been
:24:36. > :24:42.broadcast around the world. As I think many Americans are quite
:24:43. > :24:46.ashamed that I new president has so quickly... Not according to the
:24:47. > :24:49.folds of the Roman emperors were not elected and Donald Trump made very
:24:50. > :24:55.clear on the campaign trail that this is what he was going to do. It
:24:56. > :25:00.can come as no surprise. Yes, and I think that team has been very
:25:01. > :25:05.effective at creating a mandate out of a very tight race. And assuming
:25:06. > :25:14.that the electoral victory justifies any action that they can dream of
:25:15. > :25:18.doing. That was a campaign promise. You may make promises on a campaign
:25:19. > :25:28.which are chaos in reality. You had to pull back on... How is 109 people
:25:29. > :25:31.chaos? Green cards, military translations. Mild with delayed. So
:25:32. > :25:37.you're saying this has gone according to plan? Absolutely, I met
:25:38. > :25:41.with general Kelly, the new Secretary of Homeland Security, he
:25:42. > :25:45.told me that like clockwork, what the left wing media presented was
:25:46. > :25:51.absolutely and utterly fallacious. The idea that principles were not
:25:52. > :25:56.consulted, but agencies were not brought into the decision-making
:25:57. > :25:59.process. Does it matter to you if leaders in Europe and around the
:26:00. > :26:04.world think this is the efforts of a dictator gone mad? It matters to us
:26:05. > :26:10.that people are being mowed down in mass numbers in France, being
:26:11. > :26:14.massacred on the streets of Paris, Brussels, and we do not want that to
:26:15. > :26:20.happen here. That is what matters to us and anyone using that kind of
:26:21. > :26:23.language with a duly elected, democratically chosen head of
:26:24. > :26:28.government, should have their credentials examined very closely.
:26:29. > :26:34.Katie, this is part of it, whenever there are protests or placards,
:26:35. > :26:40.whenever the left together if you like, this plays into the hands of
:26:41. > :26:43.Trump because he knows the rest of the country is delighted. I think
:26:44. > :26:49.that is a good point, he is a wonderful showman and you can see in
:26:50. > :26:53.the way he is rolling out his announcement of his Supreme Court
:26:54. > :26:57.nomination later tonight, eight o'clock prime time, the rumour is
:26:58. > :27:01.that he has his finalists both appearing in the White House. It is
:27:02. > :27:06.going to be great entertainment I'm sure. Is there any Supreme Court
:27:07. > :27:11.choice the Democrats could accept? My sense is that Democrats are
:27:12. > :27:15.hoping that Congress, which distorted the make-up of the court
:27:16. > :27:26.by not even considering Barack Obama's nomination will wait until
:27:27. > :27:30.another vacancy opens up and then evaluate both Garland and whoever
:27:31. > :27:34.Trump chooses to nominate. We will find a probably tomorrow morning to
:27:35. > :27:37.the Supreme Court choice is but let me ask you, whilst governments
:27:38. > :27:42.around the world are trying to work out Donald Trump has a strategy that
:27:43. > :27:48.was the question of the state visit. If that gets pushed back, by one
:27:49. > :27:53.year, 18 months, is that still acceptable to president Trump? I'm
:27:54. > :27:57.not going to speak directly for the president, the fact is the blizzard
:27:58. > :28:02.of Theresa May that just happened a few days ago went superbly. As a
:28:03. > :28:04.result I expect everything to go along swimmingly. You know there is
:28:05. > :28:08.a petition of more than a million people who do not want him to come
:28:09. > :28:14.and see the Queen? Absolutely, I know that but I know there is also a
:28:15. > :28:19.duly elected government. A duly elected government, the British or
:28:20. > :28:22.American one? The British one, that is going to invite the duly elected
:28:23. > :28:28.chief executive of the United States. And if we keep government
:28:29. > :28:33.policies hostage to petitions that everyone would say I do not want to
:28:34. > :28:39.pay any taxes and there would be a petition for zero taxes. That is
:28:40. > :28:42.about how a representative democracy functions or a republic. This is
:28:43. > :28:47.what the left will come up against time and again within the Trump
:28:48. > :28:53.administration, this is a man who was voted in by a credible electoral
:28:54. > :28:56.system, a populist, who is enacting the things he said and was
:28:57. > :29:06.democratically elected to do. Where do you go from here? I think Trump
:29:07. > :29:10.speaks the language of as I said, showmanship and I think of people
:29:11. > :29:19.protest and he concedes there is a lot of opposition... Protests by
:29:20. > :29:23.walking out, people were called idiots today and you can see the
:29:24. > :29:28.point. I see the point and I am a bit at a loss, it is dismal, I think
:29:29. > :29:33.that the mood in a lot of places that are predominantly Democratic as
:29:34. > :29:39.opposed to Republican is discouraged and searching. But I am encouraged
:29:40. > :29:46.by the example of Elizabeth Warren, people in government, who are not
:29:47. > :29:51.running over to this and who seem to be marshalling their resources. We
:29:52. > :29:52.have run out of time, thank you both.
:29:53. > :29:56.This is where we give people a chance to opine.
:29:57. > :29:58.You wont agree with everything they say.
:29:59. > :32:26.As I speak, the House of Commons is still in session.
:32:27. > :32:29.MPs will be there until midnight tonight debating whether or not
:32:30. > :32:32.to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty -
:32:33. > :32:37.which would start the clock on us leaving the European Union.
:32:38. > :32:43.Tomorrow, just as Newsnight comes on air, the MPs will vote.
:32:44. > :32:45.But tonight, we thought we would look
:32:46. > :32:50.There have been figures floated in the press that the UK might face
:32:51. > :32:53.a bill of around 60 billion euros to cover spending commitments we've
:32:54. > :32:55.already entered into and things like the pensions of EU staff.
:32:56. > :33:08.In just over a month's time, Theresa May hopes
:33:09. > :33:11.to trigger the start of the Brexit negotiations.
:33:12. > :33:14.The UK is focused on paving the way for a bright future
:33:15. > :33:18.based on new trading relations across the globe.
:33:19. > :33:23.they are putting the finishing touches to the list of demands
:33:24. > :33:27.that will concentrate on a much more immediate challenge.
:33:28. > :33:30.When the talks are under way here in Brussels,
:33:31. > :33:33.it will soon become apparent that they are a divorce negotiation.
:33:34. > :33:42.one of the first items on the table in any divorce is alimony.
:33:43. > :33:46.My impression of the British position is they enter a football
:33:47. > :33:49.club, they say what we really want to do is play cricket,
:33:50. > :33:53.because we already invested in our cricket equipment.
:33:54. > :33:55.And when we go, we would like to take away
:33:56. > :34:04.with an early focus on demands for a substantial exit fee.
:34:05. > :34:09.Though there are tentative signs of a mellowing.
:34:10. > :34:13.Newsnight understands that a figure of just over 34 billion euros
:34:14. > :34:20.somewhat lower than the 60 billion floated last year.
:34:21. > :34:23.The new amount has been reached by examining the UK's
:34:24. > :34:26.roughly 12% share of the EU's assets and liabilities,
:34:27. > :34:40.The UK's share of the EU's total budget shortfall
:34:41. > :34:43.works out at between 24 and 30 billion euros.
:34:44. > :34:46.And the UK's share of the EU's pensions bill of 50-60 billion
:34:47. > :34:51.euros is between 6-7.2 billion euros.
:34:52. > :34:55.The UK will be expected to pay at least a third of its commitments
:34:56. > :34:59.under the EU's current budget up to December 2020,
:35:00. > :35:04.21 months after the planned Brexit date.
:35:05. > :35:07.That works out at around 10 billion euros.
:35:08. > :35:10.There are also the EU's assets of 153 billion euros.
:35:11. > :35:14.The UK will say its 18 billion share
:35:15. > :35:18.should be deducted from the liabilities.
:35:19. > :35:25.Some in the EU say their figures already take account of this.
:35:26. > :35:30.Definitive figures are notoriously difficult to pin down.
:35:31. > :35:33.The new exit bill is slightly lower, because the EU acknowledges
:35:34. > :35:36.that the UK should not have to fund those parts of the budget
:35:37. > :35:43.up to 2020 where spending has not yet been committed.
:35:44. > :35:45.The overall figure that is being bandied around in Brussels
:35:46. > :35:49.That assumes that we're fully liable for the seven-year period,
:35:50. > :35:57.and we might be able to escape some of that.
:35:58. > :36:02.but it is not going to be a small bill.
:36:03. > :36:06.I would have difficulty getting it down to any lower than 40.
:36:07. > :36:09.Newsnight understands that the exit bill and the rights of EU citizens
:36:10. > :36:13.in the UK will be the first items tabled by Brussels.
:36:14. > :36:16.One EU source told me not a single member state
:36:17. > :36:23.is going to pay one cent to help the UK leave.
:36:24. > :36:27.A leading MEP from Germany is hoping for a benign settlement.
:36:28. > :36:30.Either we keep everything in the EU like it is,
:36:31. > :36:35.that would mean somebody would have to cover the difference.
:36:36. > :36:37.And that would be on the net payers' side.
:36:38. > :36:40.The net payers are not very keen on the idea.
:36:41. > :36:43.My home country Germany, being the biggest net payer, not at all.
:36:44. > :36:49.The other possibility is that the UK is obliged to pay.
:36:50. > :36:52.Whether it will be the full money or with some other sort,
:36:53. > :37:04.It will be very difficult to find a way of filling this gap -
:37:05. > :37:08.10 billion is quite a lot of money from an EU budget of 130 billion.
:37:09. > :37:11.And that is why we go to this solution of increasing revenues,
:37:12. > :37:19.On the other hand if we decide to cut spending, of course the big
:37:20. > :37:21.losers are the net recipients, the countries that are benefiting
:37:22. > :37:26.So it's going to be difficult because it is already like this,
:37:27. > :37:30.there's a big gap between net contributors and net beneficiaries.
:37:31. > :37:35.But it is going to be exacerbated by Brexit, of course.
:37:36. > :37:40.The UK is hoping that old friends in the EU will ride to its rescue.
:37:41. > :37:43.Yann Squier suggests that Germany wants to be constructive,
:37:44. > :37:53.What we want to achieve is a fair deal and fair means the obligations
:37:54. > :37:59.And what will not happen is that the European institution
:38:00. > :38:02.and the European government will let the UK go away
:38:03. > :38:09.Pay nothing and forgetting about all the obligations
:38:10. > :38:18.they have on the continent. No way.
:38:19. > :38:21.Britain will soon be on the route out of the EU.
:38:22. > :38:23.We can expect some hard stares across the negotiating table
:38:24. > :38:43.but money could still make or break the talks.
:38:44. > :38:49.Our report shows there is something of a mixed blessing for David Davis
:38:50. > :38:53.on that sum of money. On the one hand, the 60 billion euros figure
:38:54. > :38:57.seems to be coming down, but 34 billion euros is the figure doing
:38:58. > :39:02.the rounds now, a colossal sum of money. But before David Davis can
:39:03. > :39:05.get to the talks, he has to get the Parliamentary bill triggering the
:39:06. > :39:11.negotiations onto the statute book, and tomorrow there are three votes.
:39:12. > :39:17.There will be a vote on the SNP amendment, which would stop the bill
:39:18. > :39:19.in its tracks. It will fail. The second one is about the second
:39:20. > :39:24.reading, that will go through, we expect about 29 Labour rebels. The
:39:25. > :39:28.third and final vote will be on the programme motion, how much time
:39:29. > :39:32.should the bill have? It looks like a higher number of Labour MPs voting
:39:33. > :39:36.against the Government on that. Next week it is consider that committee
:39:37. > :39:41.stage, on the floor of the House of Commons, and if, as seems likely,
:39:42. > :39:44.amendments are not passed, you will see the Shadow Business Secretary
:39:45. > :39:51.resigning from the Shadow Cabinet to let them vote against the bill. This
:39:52. > :39:54.is all in the House of Commons, but the real battle will be in the
:39:55. > :39:59.Lords. Government whips in the Lords are not relaxed, but they are
:40:00. > :40:03.confident that pro EU peers will not seek to block the bill, and there
:40:04. > :40:07.are two restraining influences. They know that if they are seen to thwart
:40:08. > :40:11.the will of the people from that referendum, it is not going to end
:40:12. > :40:15.well for them. In the second place, any peers who have not appreciated
:40:16. > :40:20.that point are being told by the Government, if you block the bill,
:40:21. > :40:25.we will hold an election with two key pledges - take the UK out of the
:40:26. > :40:27.EU and abolish you! I thought it would end like that!
:40:28. > :40:30.Before we go, time for our fact of the day.
:40:31. > :40:32.As Peter Capaldi announces he's standing down as the 12th
:40:33. > :40:34.Doctor Who, in fact 14 actors have been credited on screen
:40:35. > :40:36.as the Doctor, including the late John Hurt.
:40:37. > :40:39.But we mustn't count Peter Cushing, because he played a completely
:40:40. > :40:41.different character calling himself Doctor Who.
:40:42. > :40:52.Anyway here they all are, you decide if it's right.
:40:53. > :42:01.It changes nothing, absolutely nothing!
:42:02. > :42:02.Hello there. Mild weather in the next