:00:12. > :00:21.The ayes to the right, 498. The noes to the left, 118.
:00:22. > :00:24.The Commons votes for Brexit, despite the fact that
:00:25. > :00:26.an overwhelming majority of MPs campaigned against it.
:00:27. > :00:30.Parliament and the public expressed different views, and it's
:00:31. > :00:38.That is an event quite unprecedented in our parliamentary history,
:00:39. > :00:42.whereby popular sovereignty is trumping parliamentary sovereignty.
:00:43. > :00:46.To vote against the majority verdict of the largest democratic exercise
:00:47. > :00:50.in British history, I think, would risk putting
:00:51. > :01:02.an overwhelming vote for Brexit, Labour was split three ways
:01:03. > :01:04.and hit by resignations, and there were hints
:01:05. > :01:07.We'll ask Remainer MPs if now is the time
:01:08. > :01:09.to submit to public opinion, or whether they should
:01:10. > :01:14.Also tonight, the case of the Nigerian quadruplets born
:01:15. > :01:20.in a British hospital at a cost of ?330,000.
:01:21. > :01:25.OK, I do understand that it's a very difficult time for you, but we do
:01:26. > :01:31.We'll debate the rights and wrongs of allowing
:01:32. > :01:47.US soldiers dealing with their experiences in Iraq.
:01:48. > :01:49.But the Taiwanese-born director has his own worries
:01:50. > :02:12.It's nerve-wracking, very uncomfortable.
:02:13. > :02:22.Well, we voted them in 21 months ago, and today MPs did
:02:23. > :02:23.the country's bidding, taking an historic step
:02:24. > :02:25.towards taking Britain out of the European Union,
:02:26. > :02:32.against, for most, their own judgement on the matter.
:02:33. > :02:40.Our political editor Nick Watt has been watching. 500 out of 650, the
:02:41. > :02:44.speaker and the Deputy Speaker do not speak, it was a significant,
:02:45. > :02:48.historical moment, quite an emotional time, I spoke to a
:02:49. > :02:53.Remained visited just before voting and they said it was the worst but
:02:54. > :02:57.they had ever cast and then I spoke to a happy The minister who said,
:02:58. > :03:10.I've been waiting all my life to do that. Downing Street are delighted
:03:11. > :03:13.with the vote, one reason is that they feel it is less likely that the
:03:14. > :03:16.House of Lords can delay the bill, and that is significant because
:03:17. > :03:18.Theresa May wants to get on and trigger Article 50 before her self
:03:19. > :03:20.imposed deadline at the end of March. One possible date is the
:03:21. > :03:23.European Council, March nine and tenth or before that because it
:03:24. > :03:26.needs to be a lengthy formal letter from the UK. The reason they want to
:03:27. > :03:29.get in early is that they have been advised that the European Commission
:03:30. > :03:33.and the European Council will be able to give their formal response
:03:34. > :03:39.before the first round of the French presidential election on April 23
:03:40. > :03:44.but only if they go early. It's all happening, they'll have to worry. If
:03:45. > :03:48.they don't go early the second round of the French election will be May
:03:49. > :03:55.seven and or those who will be president of France by them. Not a
:03:56. > :04:00.great day for Labour. Divided, 47 MPs defied a three line whip, three
:04:01. > :04:04.members of the Shadow Cabinet resigned, although between ten and
:04:05. > :04:09.13 Labour frontbenchers are still in place and as I understand it Jeremy
:04:10. > :04:13.Corbyn is in no rush to do the usual thing, to sack them, he's going to
:04:14. > :04:16.wait for next week and see if any of the amendments we see at the
:04:17. > :04:21.committee stage of the bill will be accepted by the government or voted
:04:22. > :04:25.on by MPs. The significance of that is, if that happens and if the bill
:04:26. > :04:30.is amended, maybe some of those Labour MPs would be able to vote in
:04:31. > :04:34.favour of it. The amendment that seems to be getting cross-party
:04:35. > :04:38.support is by Chris Leslie, former Labour Shadow Chancellor. And this
:04:39. > :04:41.would require the government to hold a parliamentary vote on whatever
:04:42. > :04:45.emerges at the end of the negotiations, deal or no Deal, at
:04:46. > :04:50.the moment they will only be a vote if there is a deal. And what former
:04:51. > :04:57.Tory Remained ministers are saying to the government is, you will be
:04:58. > :05:00.safe, it will be fine, how about a accepting this amendment? Blount
:05:01. > :05:05.will be talking to one the Labour Shadow Cabinet who resigned in a few
:05:06. > :05:10.minutes. Speech of the day George Osborne? I think we'd have to say
:05:11. > :05:15.that. He did say that while he supports Remain he will vote for
:05:16. > :05:17.triggering Article 50 because it would be a constitutional outrage if
:05:18. > :05:22.he tried to thwart the will of the people. But then he made a pointed
:05:23. > :05:27.intervention by saying that the government has decided not to
:05:28. > :05:30.prioritise the economy and they are prioritising controls of immigration
:05:31. > :05:34.and taking the UK out of the jurisdiction of the European Court
:05:35. > :05:37.of Justice. That's quite a thing for a former Chancellor to say who
:05:38. > :05:45.obviously decides to the Leeds. Believes that elections are decided
:05:46. > :05:48.on the economy. Then there will be battles over what form Brexit will
:05:49. > :05:52.take and he ended with the words, I will be in those fights in the
:05:53. > :05:58.couple of years ahead. Nick, thank you. Having given us the referendum
:05:59. > :06:05.most MPs felt they could not ignore it. Most MPs voted in favour of the
:06:06. > :06:09.referendum and then 47 of them voted against invoking Article 50 is a way
:06:10. > :06:12.of accepting the result. And some like Ken Clarke didn't want a
:06:13. > :06:16.referendum in the first place and voted against the result of all.
:06:17. > :06:23.None of us can remember an occasion like it. We know how the nation
:06:24. > :06:29.divides and Brexit but the most striking gap is between MPs and
:06:30. > :06:34.their electorate. Here is the public vote, yellow for Remain, blue for
:06:35. > :06:39.leave. This shows how different local authorities went in the
:06:40. > :06:42.referendum. And here is that the equivalent map for MPs looks based
:06:43. > :06:46.on their declared positions in the referendum. There have often been
:06:47. > :06:52.gaps between rulers and ruled yet the historic norm is that the rulers
:06:53. > :06:54.to get their way. Not this time. The referendum outcome shows how very
:06:55. > :07:01.out of touch the House of Commons is with the people. The only parties in
:07:02. > :07:08.favour of leaving work Ukip, with one MP, and the Democratic Unionist
:07:09. > :07:14.party in Northern Ireland, that makes nine MPs out of 650. The
:07:15. > :07:18.consequence is that for the first time in its history MPs have to vote
:07:19. > :07:23.for a policy which the vast majority of them, around three quarters,
:07:24. > :07:30.oppose. That is an event without precedent in our long parliamentary
:07:31. > :07:36.history. Other countries are familiar with direct democracy, the
:07:37. > :07:40.most famous case in recent decades proposition 13 in California,
:07:41. > :07:42.capping property taxes against the views of the political
:07:43. > :07:48.establishment. The death penalty was reimposed there as well as a public
:07:49. > :07:53.demand. Until recently in the UK, we have tended to go for representative
:07:54. > :08:03.democracy, vote them in and vote them out again if you don't like
:08:04. > :08:08.them. Then came the first Europe vote in 1975. It's beginning to look
:08:09. > :08:12.as if we may not have a single No venting area in Britain itself...
:08:13. > :08:17.But in that case nation and Commons have the same majority view. Europe
:08:18. > :08:20.has driven a coach and horses through the British constitution. We
:08:21. > :08:25.would not have had the idea of a referendum in the first place if not
:08:26. > :08:29.for Europe in 1975, when Harold Wilson used it to hold together a
:08:30. > :08:40.divided Labour Party, just as David Cameron used it to hold together a
:08:41. > :08:42.divided Conservative Party but in this case, by contrast with 1975,
:08:43. > :08:44.the people have voted against the wishes of the government. The
:08:45. > :08:48.Article 50 debate reflected the cognitive dissidents that our
:08:49. > :08:54.legislators feel. The point has been made to me that we are not delegates
:08:55. > :08:57.but when all your neighbours, local business people, local pharmacists,
:08:58. > :09:00.health professionals, your political allies and indeed your political
:09:01. > :09:07.opponents make a point that you have to take a stand on an issue, I feel
:09:08. > :09:13.this is the right course of action. I do accept that Lambeth voted
:09:14. > :09:18.overwhelmingly for Remain but as I have made it very clear this was a
:09:19. > :09:28.UK referendum, not constituency -based referendum... But and in the
:09:29. > :09:30.country how did Remain voters feel the MP should have voted? -- out in
:09:31. > :09:33.the country. Know we've come to the process and had a referendum and a
:09:34. > :09:39.democratic process and people have decided to leave I believe we should
:09:40. > :09:43.follow that process. Our MP is Tim Curran, the leader of the Liberal
:09:44. > :09:46.Democrats. He's going to the wire over the issue of a second
:09:47. > :09:50.referendum -- Tim Farron. Although my party has a three line whip in
:09:51. > :09:55.Westminster it does not have a three line whip on my views so I am very
:09:56. > :10:00.happy with my MP. We lost, that's the way of it, we have to make the
:10:01. > :10:04.most of it and try to unite again as a country and deal with the
:10:05. > :10:10.situation as we find it. He's decided to abstain because he wants
:10:11. > :10:13.to reflect his voters. Their beliefs. I don't believe he's
:10:14. > :10:16.reflecting them enough. I think he should have the courage of his
:10:17. > :10:22.convictions he should be representing us because it is his
:10:23. > :10:29.job. His job to represent us, his constituents. Certainly some mixed
:10:30. > :10:35.views from Remain voters. Was today the day for them to fold behind the
:10:36. > :10:41.majority? Earlier I spoke to two MPs who have campaigned to Remain yet to
:10:42. > :10:43.different decisions today, Nicky Morgan, the former Education
:10:44. > :10:47.Secretary, voted in favour of Article 50, she said, to avoid a
:10:48. > :10:53.constitutional crisis. In Rachael Maskell who resigned as a member of
:10:54. > :10:54.the Labour Shadow Cabinet to read against Article 50. I first asked
:10:55. > :10:57.Nicky Morgan if she had found it Well, I was quite clear
:10:58. > :11:04.from the autumn onwards, that we needed a short sharp bill
:11:05. > :11:07.to trigger Article 50, that Parliament really,
:11:08. > :11:09.if which we were going to avoid a crisis in our democracy,
:11:10. > :11:12.needed to respect the democratic But of course, as many of us said,
:11:13. > :11:16.we'd really rather not have been in the situation of having this
:11:17. > :11:19.debate and having to Well, Rachael Maskell,
:11:20. > :11:21.you voted against triggering Article 50 last year,
:11:22. > :11:23.before last year you I came here to make sure
:11:24. > :11:29.the people I represent in York What we're trying to do is mesh
:11:30. > :11:35.together a referendum which is one process with a Parliamentary
:11:36. > :11:38.democracy, another process, and through the referendum
:11:39. > :11:41.we saw clearly the way that our constituents voted,
:11:42. > :11:43.and therefore it is incumbent on myself to bring that voice
:11:44. > :11:45.into Westminster, which But you voted for a national
:11:46. > :11:50.referendum, you didn't vote for a referendum in York Central,
:11:51. > :11:53.you voted for a national referendum, do you want to apologise
:11:54. > :11:55.to the public for voting for a national referendum,
:11:56. > :11:58.for which you were not willing We got a question put
:11:59. > :12:04.before us today in a bill, to move forward into a process,
:12:05. > :12:07.where we will be coming out of the single market and out
:12:08. > :12:11.of the customs union. Now I can't even remember that
:12:12. > :12:15.being on the ballot paper last June, and therefore we have an unelected
:12:16. > :12:25.Prime Minister, now moving forward to put forward her own position
:12:26. > :12:28.on how we should move forward. I think what is really important
:12:29. > :12:31.is we listen to where people Because that question was not
:12:32. > :12:34.on the ballot paper. That question wasn't,
:12:35. > :12:37.but the Brexit was, and there's only one model of Brexit on the table
:12:38. > :12:44.and you're voting against it. We know right back last summer
:12:45. > :12:47.there are so many models of Brexit and that's why the different Brexit
:12:48. > :12:49.campaigns couldn't Where we are moving
:12:50. > :12:52.forward to is important. What we have been saying,
:12:53. > :12:54.a people's Brexit is very different from a Theresa May Brexit,
:12:55. > :12:58.where she is going to take us out of the single market,
:12:59. > :13:00.out of the customs union and nobody Do you accept that point you could
:13:01. > :13:04.vote against Article 50 and say, until I get the kind
:13:05. > :13:07.of Brexit I support, I'm not You could have taken
:13:08. > :13:10.that position today. Look, I think we all thought
:13:11. > :13:13.about that, but I don't agree, It is a difficult thing
:13:14. > :13:17.to stand down from a job, in the shadow front
:13:18. > :13:19.bench, everything else. I do think it was incumbent
:13:20. > :13:21.on Parliament to understand how people voted and to pass the bill,
:13:22. > :13:24.and I think that's what hopefully we will see
:13:25. > :13:27.by the time we get to March. There is a separate debate to be had
:13:28. > :13:30.and that's why the publication of the White Paper tomorrow
:13:31. > :13:33.is important, about the terms of Brexit, and I think that
:13:34. > :13:36.many of us in Parliament and many, many thousands, tens of thousands
:13:37. > :13:39.of people outside have very firm views on that,
:13:40. > :13:41.which I hope the Government But you're not going
:13:42. > :13:45.to get that debate. If you nod through Article 50
:13:46. > :13:47.you are going to get Theresa May's Brexit,
:13:48. > :13:49.so you, I mean that is Theresa May has set out the 12
:13:50. > :13:58.pillars in her speech and they will be in the White Paper,
:13:59. > :14:02.but there is a negotiation Parliament needs to be involved
:14:03. > :14:06.in that, not in the process because she will negotiate
:14:07. > :14:10.and Government will negotiate but keeping Parliament updated,
:14:11. > :14:12.keeping an eye on what is happening in our economy, and what people
:14:13. > :14:15.are saying outside is going to be tremendously important,
:14:16. > :14:18.and that's where MPs can really add Hang on, you have just voted not
:14:19. > :15:06.to activate a referendum result. I voted according to the way the
:15:07. > :15:10.people who elected me asked me to. If an amendment comes up,
:15:11. > :15:13.for example, Nicky Morgan, that says yes, we will invoke
:15:14. > :15:17.Article 50, but we negotiate our way Would you support
:15:18. > :15:22.something like that? You clearly believe it,
:15:23. > :15:25.it is consistent with what the public voted for,
:15:26. > :15:27.it is a Brexit model, You would struggle
:15:28. > :15:31.not to vote for that? I wouldn't, because I think
:15:32. > :15:40.that the bill is a process bill I do think that there are amendments
:15:41. > :15:44.down about Parliamentary scrutiny and about the vote at the end
:15:45. > :15:48.and they will be debated next week. I think there is a separate
:15:49. > :15:50.White Paper process about the pillars that the Prime Minister
:15:51. > :15:53.has set out, and I do think, as I say, that Parliament has
:15:54. > :15:56.a really important role in informing ministers about what's happening
:15:57. > :15:59.on the ground in our constituency, what people are saying
:16:00. > :16:01.about the effects on their economy, their businesses, regulations,
:16:02. > :16:03.I am getting lobbied all the time by people who are saying how
:16:04. > :16:06.is this going to work? Can we make sure there is no cliff
:16:07. > :16:10.edge for example, in March 2019? Those things are important
:16:11. > :16:12.ministers hear. Rachael, do you think this indicates
:16:13. > :16:14.a computer collapse of discipline You voted what, threeways, for,
:16:15. > :16:20.against, in between, the party frontbenches,
:16:21. > :16:21.whips, everybody voting What does that say about the state
:16:22. > :16:27.of Labour at the moment? I think you'll find next
:16:28. > :16:29.week as we're talking through the amendments
:16:30. > :16:31.that we will be absolutely solid and making sure we have the process
:16:32. > :16:34.in place to call the Government to account, what we've been trying
:16:35. > :16:37.to do today is to put referendum into a Parliamentary democracy
:16:38. > :16:40.and we need to make sure that systems work as we move forward,
:16:41. > :16:46.because reality is there are two systems that clash, one which is
:16:47. > :16:50.about empowerment and clearly that is what I was doing,
:16:51. > :16:53.empowering the people You are empowering your constituency
:16:54. > :16:56.but ignoring the majority vote in the country that
:16:57. > :17:00.you voted to have. Every single MP has the right
:17:01. > :17:03.to represent those that elect them to Parliament and therefore
:17:04. > :17:06.that was absolutely right that MPs chose to do that today,
:17:07. > :17:11.but as we move forward we clearly are going to have amendments
:17:12. > :17:14.which put the scrutiny process behind this bill,
:17:15. > :17:15.which is absolutely crucial. We have amendments in there,
:17:16. > :17:18.particularly at the end of the process to make sure
:17:19. > :17:20.that the negotiation strategy, You are talking a brave talk here,
:17:21. > :17:26.Rachael, but the truth is your party has been all over the shop,
:17:27. > :17:28.basically, hasn't it. It does come down to the fact that
:17:29. > :17:31.some of them believe you have to stick with the result
:17:32. > :17:34.of what the voters said, and some like you have said,
:17:35. > :17:38.I want to go my own way or the way We're really clear as a party
:17:39. > :17:45.that we do not want a hard Brexit, a Theresa May Brexit,
:17:46. > :17:48.where she has gone and determined And what we have said,
:17:49. > :17:52.is that a people's Brexit would be incredibly different
:17:53. > :17:55.from what she has set out. She hasn't followed
:17:56. > :17:58.the will of the people, she has set out her own terms
:17:59. > :18:01.and we saw, just over the weekend, how easy it is that she could give
:18:02. > :18:04.away that power, to other countries and if you're signing trade
:18:05. > :18:07.agreements I would have to say where is the Parliamentary democracy
:18:08. > :18:10.in those processes? So there is much to discuss over
:18:11. > :18:13.the coming two years and we will certainly be
:18:14. > :18:15.at the table for that. Rachael Maskell, Nicky
:18:16. > :18:20.Morgan, thanks both. It seems more than twelve days since
:18:21. > :18:23.President Trump's inauguration, and the new normal arrived
:18:24. > :18:26.in US politics. Well, you can look at polls,
:18:27. > :18:30.the approval ratings But even better than polls,
:18:31. > :18:35.you can talk to people. Particularly those
:18:36. > :18:37.who voted for him. Yalda Hakim is in rural
:18:38. > :18:39.Pennsylvania, trying to find out Pennsylvania, Donald
:18:40. > :18:51.Trump's heartland. I can't believe that,
:18:52. > :19:01.I thought our country has progressed so much and we took
:19:02. > :19:05.like three steps back. If we stand up to other countries,
:19:06. > :19:08.we have to make America great again, It was counties like this facing
:19:09. > :19:18.a decline in manufacturing, shrinking population and rising
:19:19. > :19:20.immigration that moved heavily towards Donald Trump and his message
:19:21. > :19:22.of national restoration In his first week-and-a-half
:19:23. > :19:51.in office we have come here to ask He resonated with the working class,
:19:52. > :19:56.I mean this is a blue collar town, you have a lot of industry here,
:19:57. > :20:00.hard-working people, everybody who comes to this place, punches a time
:20:01. > :20:06.clock. That is pretty much the way it is. Marty welcomes Donald Trump's
:20:07. > :20:10.tough stance on immigrants. It a privilege to come to the United
:20:11. > :20:16.States. I don't mean that in a way other than, that it is not a right
:20:17. > :20:20.to come to the United States. That's the price of what freedom is. The
:20:21. > :20:25.United States. If it takes a year, it takes two years, that is what the
:20:26. > :20:30.price of living in this country is. We have freedom here. It is a topic
:20:31. > :20:36.many people here feel strongly about. I am an hen sieve. They are
:20:37. > :20:42.volatile country, you have to be apprehensive. If we are letting you
:20:43. > :20:47.in, it is like, pay your dues like my ancestors did, line anybody
:20:48. > :20:51.else's did. They sat at Ellis "land for days because they wanted to be
:20:52. > :20:56.part of this country. Don't think you deserve the right, I mean I
:20:57. > :21:02.don't go over there. Jessica who works at the bar is one
:21:03. > :21:06.of the few people in this town who didn't vote for Donald Trump. I am
:21:07. > :21:10.appalled by it actually. I don't think it's right. I think it is
:21:11. > :21:17.unconstitutional. People have been becoming more and more outspoken
:21:18. > :21:21.about their racism. I have heard everything in this bar being said
:21:22. > :21:26.that racial slurs that I haven't heard in, I have lived here many his
:21:27. > :21:30.whole life and I haven't heard ever. They are outspoken because they
:21:31. > :21:33.think it is OK to use hate speech and hate language and hate people. I
:21:34. > :21:39.am not about that, you know. On the face of it the new policy seems
:21:40. > :21:44.straightforward. Immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries
:21:45. > :21:48.have been restricted from entering the United States, for 90 days.
:21:49. > :21:55.Some have viewed this as a ban on Muslims.
:21:56. > :21:59.Across the County, in the town at the local jewellery shop we meet
:22:00. > :22:05.Glenn. A lot of people are saying that Muslims are targeted, that this
:22:06. > :22:11.is a Muslim ban. Yes, once again I think you have to start somewhere
:22:12. > :22:16.and you look at 9/11, you look at bin haar den, you look a the Boston
:22:17. > :22:26.massacre, the terrorist attack on boss toe. -- bin haar den. They were
:22:27. > :22:30.all Muslim. It is hard you have to cat grinds that specific, but I
:22:31. > :22:34.think that it is a start. Do you think it is creating division in
:22:35. > :22:39.America? I think they have done that, not us. Because there are a
:22:40. > :22:45.lot of Muslims who live in this country. Yes, there definitely is, I
:22:46. > :22:49.think that they have done that, we haven't done that, that's, that is
:22:50. > :23:00.their brand, the brand they are portraying.
:23:01. > :23:06.Hi, nice to meet you. This woman is a Syrian American, and
:23:07. > :23:10.was born and raised in this town. She feels Donald Trump's stricter
:23:11. > :23:17.immigration policy is counter productive. I don't know how you
:23:18. > :23:21.could call it something, but worse than that, I feel it's, against
:23:22. > :23:30.every principle that the country was, our country was built on, when
:23:31. > :23:33.you divide you create mosh confusion, more mistrust, maybe
:23:34. > :23:37.hatred, you know, between two different kind of people who were
:23:38. > :23:45.brought up differently. Now, how is that going to prevent terrorism as
:23:46. > :23:50.opposed to create more? As Donald Trump attempts to shake things up,
:23:51. > :24:01.his hard line policies seem to be continuing, to resonate with many
:24:02. > :24:06.The government says it is going to try far harder to recoup the cost
:24:07. > :24:08.of NHS healthcare given to foreigners in Britain.
:24:09. > :24:11.The issue was in the public eye today partly because of the BBC 2
:24:12. > :24:13.documentary, Hospital, that revealed a rather unusual case
:24:14. > :24:15.of a Nigerian woman and her quadruplets born prematurely.
:24:16. > :24:18.She had been refused entry to the US, and was taken ill
:24:19. > :24:21.on a plane but ended up costing the NHS ?330,000.
:24:22. > :24:32.The thing is, Priscilla, the hospital bill is
:24:33. > :24:40.You're going to be in England for a while, aren't you.
:24:41. > :24:43.So, your husband, is your husband in Nigeria?
:24:44. > :24:50.Will he be coming over at all, under these circumstances?
:24:51. > :25:02.I do understand it's a very difficult time for you, you know,
:25:03. > :25:09.but we do need to talk about the charges for treatment.
:25:10. > :25:12.Also today, the Public Accounts Committee of MPs has said the system
:25:13. > :25:16.The words "health tourism" are used a lot in this talk -
:25:17. > :25:30.It's not people coming here specifically to use the NHS
:25:31. > :25:35.Give us the scale of it The Government commissioned research
:25:36. > :25:39.into the cost of people specifically coming to the UK just to use the
:25:40. > :25:43.NHS, the so-called health tour ribs and what they found was it is a
:25:44. > :25:46.relatively small part of the generalised cost of foreign people
:25:47. > :25:54.coming to the UK and happening to be ill here, so, if we put up a graph,
:25:55. > :26:02.what we can show is that back in 2013, what the Government estimated
:26:03. > :26:05.was around ?200 million was spend on so-called health tourrieses, that
:26:06. > :26:12.was a bit less than if we look at the cost of just European people
:26:13. > :26:16.getting ill in the UK, so it is EU people, that is about 300 million,
:26:17. > :26:20.if you look at students who are not from the EU, that is about 450
:26:21. > :26:25.million, and finally, if you look at people who have come to the UK from
:26:26. > :26:28.elsewhere, it is about 1 billion we spent on care for them, while they
:26:29. > :26:33.are here. We get some of that money back. That is is right. These are
:26:34. > :26:38.gross number, we are basically, we are part of a scheme with other
:26:39. > :26:43.countries that means we are able to charge their state, we are not good
:26:44. > :26:47.at recouping that, if this was the 300 million we could have got, we
:26:48. > :26:52.only got about 50 million back, we can also charge patients from, we
:26:53. > :26:56.can't charge students but we can charge patients from elsewhere in
:26:57. > :27:00.the world for some of their care, again we only charge about ?25
:27:01. > :27:03.million in that specific year, so that why the Government is keen to
:27:04. > :27:07.clamp-down on this. The money they are oing to get, is that going to
:27:08. > :27:13.make a big difference, small difference, Tyne Griff presence to
:27:14. > :27:18.NHS budge bet? These are small numbers so the total was 2 billion.
:27:19. > :27:22.They are looking in their dream they are looking to recoup 5 million and
:27:23. > :27:27.that is coming from taxing students mainly. Fundamentally, they are
:27:28. > :27:31.giving the NHS hospitals incentives to find foreign people to charge and
:27:32. > :27:35.foreign people whose bills we can get for another state to pay, but
:27:36. > :27:38.it's counter-cultural for lots of #350e78 who work in hospitals to
:27:39. > :27:40.check the passports of people in their care. Thank you.
:27:41. > :27:44.Joining me now is the Chair of the Royal College of GPS
:27:45. > :27:46.Professor Helen Lampard Stokes, and the cancer surgeon
:27:47. > :27:50.Meirion Thomas, who is a campaigner on health tourism.
:27:51. > :27:58.We saw in that clip, an NHS person saying to a mother who had lost her
:27:59. > :28:02.child or two children I think, at that point, we need to talk about
:28:03. > :28:08.the bill. Are you comfortable with that as a kind of ethos in the NHS?
:28:09. > :28:11.Well, that case, is exceptional and there is some tragic elms to that
:28:12. > :28:16.case, perhaps we can just set that aside for just a moment, but the
:28:17. > :28:23.fact about maternity tourism is it is very common, for example last
:28:24. > :28:28.year, at St George's Hospital it was reported 1800 foreign lady who had
:28:29. > :28:32.delivered babies there will be and in represent speck 870 of those
:28:33. > :28:37.approximately were ineligible for NHS care. What would you do in those
:28:38. > :28:40.case, because those people, you are probably not going to be able to
:28:41. > :28:45.recoup a large amount. You can chase them. You won't get very much. What
:28:46. > :28:52.is the practical thing, you ask them to show their passport. The point
:28:53. > :28:57.about passports, it is just to do with non-urgent care, for elective
:28:58. > :29:00.cases. It is very little you can do for maternity cases because the
:29:01. > :29:03.Government is determined that anything to do with maternity is
:29:04. > :29:08.immediately necessary, and therefore they have to be treated. They are
:29:09. > :29:15.charged as you say, but, we know that only 16% of invoices that are
:29:16. > :29:21.issued are honoured. Right. Helen, why is it so difficult to just
:29:22. > :29:23.charge people at least the none elective, the non-emergency, the
:29:24. > :29:26.elective care. What is wrong with that? We don't have the
:29:27. > :29:29.infrastructure to do it. Because our NHS, wonderful NHS is free at the
:29:30. > :29:34.point of need, we don't have a charging system set up, there is no
:29:35. > :29:37.universal way of finding out if a patient should or shouldn't pay, so
:29:38. > :29:42.when you walk into a hospital, you and I don't carry any ID because we
:29:43. > :29:47.expect free treatment. When you see your GP you don't carry anything,
:29:48. > :29:52.there is no reason to. If we wanted to charge every body who would need
:29:53. > :29:58.to pay something, we would have to set up a huge infrastructure. You
:29:59. > :30:05.could have to ask me... Is that so difficult? Well, 1.3 million
:30:06. > :30:10.patients see their GP every day, let us get this in perspective. In
:30:11. > :30:16.England we have 7,500 GP surgery, that is a heap of infrastructure.
:30:17. > :30:21.Not, let alone, would you issue ID cards? Would you use passports. That
:30:22. > :30:26.would be an idea. That would make it easier. It would. It happens in
:30:27. > :30:30.other country, other countries charge people. Because they from the
:30:31. > :30:34.the charging structure, they don't have a health system pee at the part
:30:35. > :30:39.of need. This is small amounts of monument if we want to put the
:30:40. > :30:42.infrastructure in and spend hundreds setting it up we could do it. It
:30:43. > :30:48.would be a long time to get the return on investment. It does take
:30:49. > :30:50.infrastructure, ID cards, it is a huge change, and it St really a
:30:51. > :31:04.relatively small amount. It is not small amount, the whole
:31:05. > :31:08.point is, what these management companies were saying in their
:31:09. > :31:12.reports that they accepted only a tiny number of people identified,
:31:13. > :31:16.the problem is much bigger than the government thinks. What I have
:31:17. > :31:24.suggested is that for elective care in hospitals, I know it is not all
:31:25. > :31:31.of the patients and I fully understand it does not involve or
:31:32. > :31:34.doctors but I suggest the patient should present a passport and a
:31:35. > :31:41.utility bill in the name when they register. Loads of people don't have
:31:42. > :31:45.utility bills in the name! Every hospital has an overseas visitors
:31:46. > :31:53.offers. I am suggesting there is a screening tool, that is all. Does it
:31:54. > :32:00.work? Could you receptionist check on sweaty's utility bill? Do you
:32:01. > :32:04.know how difficult it is too identify passport? There are subtle
:32:05. > :32:08.features. I am certainly not trained to do it. You need proper equipment
:32:09. > :32:13.to scan it and say it's legitimate. That is what we're dealing with,
:32:14. > :32:18.passports are not the answer. If I said you won't make this happen
:32:19. > :32:23.until you have ID cards which have residents's entitlement in the UK
:32:24. > :32:27.would you go for that? It's going to have to happen in some form or
:32:28. > :32:33.other, they will have to be personal identification to prove that you are
:32:34. > :32:38.entitled to NHS care. Any health system comparable to ours, Sweden,
:32:39. > :32:42.Holland, France, Germany, wherever you go, we have to have it. OK.
:32:43. > :32:45.Helen, Meirion, thank you both. If you've missed it,
:32:46. > :32:50.the story so far is that all week we've been bringing you two-minute
:32:51. > :32:52.opinionated monologues, Tonight, the author Lionel Shriver,
:32:53. > :32:55.best known for her novel It's time to say
:32:56. > :33:09.what we really mean. Left-leaning pundits decry both
:33:10. > :33:11.Brexit and Trump as the fatal So, when the left wins it's
:33:12. > :33:17.a triumph of democracy. A rabble brandishing pitchforks,
:33:18. > :33:25.Barbarians at the gate. The Oxford Dictionary defines
:33:26. > :33:27.populism as "support for Yet lately, populism seems
:33:28. > :33:33.a byword for voters not To Remainers who want to rerun
:33:34. > :33:40.the referendum until Brexiteers get their minds right,
:33:41. > :33:42.populism means leaving important Of many ideological hues,
:33:43. > :33:51.populism classically urges common people to unseat
:33:52. > :33:55.an unjust governing class. So the American civil rights
:33:56. > :33:57.movement and Occupy Wall Yet especially since the EU
:33:58. > :34:06.referendum, commentators use one-size-fits-all populism to lazily
:34:07. > :34:08.lump together desperate Italy, Hungary, Austria,
:34:09. > :34:12.Holland, Germany, Denmark, Missing all the nuances,
:34:13. > :34:19.the American press makes no distinction between Ukip
:34:20. > :34:27.and France's National Front It's this one word that makes Brexit
:34:28. > :34:39.and Trump seem - mistakenly - The term is troubling
:34:40. > :34:41.because it's loaded. Since anyone who questions
:34:42. > :34:43.unfettered immigration is a suspect and backward,
:34:44. > :34:45.populist has become wink and nod It's polite code for
:34:46. > :34:49.racist, xenophobic, Some Trump voters may deserve these
:34:50. > :34:55.pejorative connotations So before reaching for
:34:56. > :35:10.the euphemism "populist", let's try substituting "bigoted",
:35:11. > :35:12.because if that's what we mean, Film director Ang Lee
:35:13. > :35:25.made gay cowboys popular with Brokeback Mountain,
:35:26. > :35:28.he made Life of Pi where the action is all confined to a small boat,
:35:29. > :35:31.he took a Taiwanese language film and made it mainstream,
:35:32. > :35:33.with Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. He is no stranger to taking risks,
:35:34. > :35:36.and for his next trick the three-time Oscar winner has
:35:37. > :35:43.taken on the Iraq war. He's cast a British unknown
:35:44. > :35:45.in the lead, and experimented Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk
:35:46. > :35:49.is based on real events, about a group of US soldiers
:35:50. > :35:52.who are given a heroes' welcome at home, but struggle
:35:53. > :35:54.with the memories of what had really The film - out here this month -
:35:55. > :35:58.has been met with proverbial Ang Lee has been
:35:59. > :36:02.speaking to our culture For the first time in my life
:36:03. > :36:11.I feel close to somebody. In Ang Lee's new film,
:36:12. > :36:18.a platoon of US soldiers are flown back
:36:19. > :36:20.from the battlefields of Iraq and paraded
:36:21. > :36:21.as But they are not
:36:22. > :36:25.prepared for all the attention or the deafening
:36:26. > :36:27.pyrotechnics. All these explosions catapult
:36:28. > :36:30.them back to being in combat, in theatre,
:36:31. > :36:33.don't they? I got that from talking to the soldi
:36:34. > :36:41.the veterans who work The thing they talk most
:36:42. > :36:48.about is the sound, and they The other things, the celebration
:36:49. > :37:03.is a bother to them. When people thank
:37:04. > :37:05.them, so often when people come and thank the soldiers
:37:06. > :37:08.for their service, that's the line When people thank them,
:37:09. > :37:12.because they feel they Also what motivated me to make
:37:13. > :37:22.the movie is really the sympathy to the soldiers
:37:23. > :37:25.who are being misunderstood. That's what really moves me,
:37:26. > :37:33.more than timely or Ang Lee has taken on a war
:37:34. > :37:46.unpopular with the American public, as he has discovered
:37:47. > :37:49.at the box office. He also gave himself the technical
:37:50. > :37:52.challenge of shooting at 120 frames On the big screen, it
:37:53. > :37:59.gives greater definition, Such as making gunfights
:38:00. > :38:08.look convincing. I had the idea to have
:38:09. > :38:11.them shoot real bullets! It's sort of weird being honoured
:38:12. > :38:22.for the worst day of your life. The special effect person,
:38:23. > :38:25.they provided the armour, they were very smart,
:38:26. > :38:29.but this little spring, It's very exciting,
:38:30. > :38:41.a close-up of shooting, There are a ton of ways
:38:42. > :38:47.you could get shipped home, or I mean, you're
:38:48. > :38:50.a decorated hero, Billy, For stars including
:38:51. > :38:52.Kristin Stewart, there was no make-up on set, to suit
:38:53. > :38:57.the unforgiving high-speed cameras. So, no pressure then
:38:58. > :39:00.on the young British newcomer Joe Alwyn,
:39:01. > :39:03.who was cast in the lead after producers had
:39:04. > :39:08.seen hundreds of other hopefuls. You don't have money men saying,
:39:09. > :39:17.get somebody famous in that part? This movie's not expensive
:39:18. > :39:27.but it's not cheap either. There are some hesitations,
:39:28. > :39:31.there were, but I was It took a week or two
:39:32. > :39:43.to convince the And you have a few Oscars
:39:44. > :39:47.on your shelf so that The extraordinary Life Of Pi
:39:48. > :39:58.picked up four Oscars but what about accusations of racism
:39:59. > :40:00.at the awards, when the director's earlier adaptation
:40:01. > :40:14.of a Jane Austen novel was winning prizes,
:40:15. > :40:16.he was overlooked. When I did Sense And
:40:17. > :40:19.Sensibility it got seven nominations, and it won a lot
:40:20. > :40:21.including Golden Globes, best producer called me, she was crying,
:40:22. > :40:39.we've got seven nominations. But in the long run,
:40:40. > :40:46.I think they didn't know me. I just don't think they
:40:47. > :40:51.know me, I think it's Ang Lee was born in Taiwan,
:40:52. > :40:59.so does he appreciate Donald Trump's overtures to Taiwan, which
:41:00. > :41:03.seem to have upset the Chinese? By the way, I'm having
:41:04. > :41:10.Taiwanese passport. I'm not American yet,
:41:11. > :41:12.it's not my president, And we are a minority,
:41:13. > :41:39.it's a very small place, not recognised
:41:40. > :41:41.as a country, but it has its own sovereignty,
:41:42. > :41:43.and I'm just afraid that it will be used
:41:44. > :41:46.as a chip, a bargaining element. After reinventing the martial arts
:41:47. > :41:59.movie with Crouching Tiger, could Ang Lee be persuaded to work
:42:00. > :42:02.his magic on the British equivalent, From childhood I always
:42:03. > :42:07.imagined a Bond movie, it is But I think it's a brand
:42:08. > :42:12.you don't want to mess with, Don't seduce me any more,
:42:13. > :42:20.I might just want to do it! The Broccolis, if I've got that
:42:21. > :42:26.right, they watch this programme. Steven Smith with the film director