03/02/2017

Download Subtitles

Transcript

:00:12. > :00:13.President Trump has put Iran on notice after its

:00:14. > :00:16.missile test with limited sanctions, so who is testing who?

:00:17. > :00:19.And is this the beginning of the unravelling of President Obama's

:00:20. > :00:23.I'll be speaking to a former Deputy Prime Minister of Iran.

:00:24. > :00:26.We are able to manipulate YouTube videos in real-time.

:00:27. > :00:28.Here we demonstrate our method in a live

:00:29. > :00:36.Is new technology, which can put the wrong words in your mouth,

:00:37. > :00:42.a giant leap for fake news and alternative facts?

:00:43. > :00:44.How do we sort out the truth, half-truth, and lies?

:00:45. > :00:59.Africa is no longer the colonial subject.

:01:00. > :01:04.President Trump today announced his first sanctions

:01:05. > :01:08.against Iran over its ballistic missile test on Sunday.

:01:09. > :01:10.The new president has been a long-time critic

:01:11. > :01:16.Trump tweeted that Iran is playing with fire.

:01:17. > :01:18.They don't appreciate how "kind" President Obama was to them.

:01:19. > :01:25.The US National Security Advisor said the administration

:01:26. > :01:27.was putting Iran on notice, and then the Treasury department

:01:28. > :01:30.announced sanctions against thirteen people and a dozen "entities".

:01:31. > :01:35.Iran's Foreign Minister responded, also on Twitter, saying "Iran

:01:36. > :01:39.unmoved by threats as we derive security from our people.

:01:40. > :01:41.We will never initiate war, but we can only reply

:01:42. > :01:57.Is this a harbinger of much worse to come like a handbrake turn on Iran

:01:58. > :02:02.policy? In a sense it is unfinished business from the last months of the

:02:03. > :02:07.Obama administration, these missiles, over 1000 mile range, not

:02:08. > :02:11.very accurate, the general view of intelligence experts is that they

:02:12. > :02:17.are being tested as nuclear delivery systems, that is counter to United

:02:18. > :02:26.Nations agreements. Another problem is that some people connected with

:02:27. > :02:30.these, the firing of warships by rebels in recent months, another

:02:31. > :02:33.issue is that basically apart from one counterstrike against those

:02:34. > :02:37.batteries President Obama kicked the can down the road. So emphasis

:02:38. > :02:41.tonight from US officials is that this doesn't mean the end of the

:02:42. > :02:46.nuclear agreement, it is a separate issue but we have to do something.

:02:47. > :02:52.The Trump rhetoric is heavy but these are not, as you say,

:02:53. > :02:56.heavy-duty sanctions. Well, here's the problem which is that President

:02:57. > :03:01.Trump and his national security adviser Mike Flynn are very hard

:03:02. > :03:05.line on Iran. So these aspects of sanctions about these two separate

:03:06. > :03:09.issues which you might see is business as usual for the National

:03:10. > :03:12.Security system in Washington are coming at a time when President

:03:13. > :03:18.Trump has said all options are on the table now for Iran, Mike Flynn

:03:19. > :03:21.has said they are on notice. The dangers of misperception, the

:03:22. > :03:26.Iranians have said that they will carry on testing and President Trump

:03:27. > :03:30.feeling he has drawn a red line, remember how he criticised President

:03:31. > :03:35.Obama for not enforcing the red line of Assyria, he may feel he has to

:03:36. > :03:37.defend it, the scope for sliding into conflict now is considerable, I

:03:38. > :04:01.would say. Thank you very much. Mohsen Sazegara was the Iranians

:04:02. > :04:06.Deputy Prime Minister in his late dash in the late 80s but became

:04:07. > :04:07.disillusioned with the resume and is now a political activist based in

:04:08. > :04:16.Washington, DC. These 25 persons and institutions, I

:04:17. > :04:19.expected it because of an escalation of tensions between these countries.

:04:20. > :04:29.It started from the White House three nights ago by Flynn and Trump,

:04:30. > :04:33.both of them. Do you sense the Iranians pushing a little, nibbling

:04:34. > :04:43.away at Donald Trump with this test on Sunday? I think that right now,

:04:44. > :04:50.the top officials in Iran, the leader, I mean, and the

:04:51. > :04:56.revolutionary guard, they are very cautious and they prefer not to

:04:57. > :05:05.escalate the tension, and more than that, I think, they are waiting for

:05:06. > :05:10.the results of the President's trip to Moscow to see what President

:05:11. > :05:13.Putin can do for them, because they expect that President Putin can

:05:14. > :05:24.reduce the tensions between Washington and Iran. It is not

:05:25. > :05:30.necessarily to the advantage of Tehran to have Putin and Trump

:05:31. > :05:35.close, is it? It is not to the benefit of one side, and to the

:05:36. > :05:41.other side, if there are new sanctions against Putin and Russia,

:05:42. > :05:51.if these are passed by the Congress, it shows that Putin can't solve his

:05:52. > :05:57.own problem. So both sides are not good signals for Iran. Let's look

:05:58. > :06:02.separately at the sanctions and also the visa restrictions, two separate

:06:03. > :06:08.things. Your reaction to the Visa restrictions? Visa restrictions

:06:09. > :06:15.definitely harms a big group of Iranians who live in the USA and

:06:16. > :06:20.their families, relatives, travel, and helps the regime of Iran for its

:06:21. > :06:27.own propaganda and mobilises people to support the regime. But the

:06:28. > :06:30.sanctions against the Revolutionary guard, or the leader, and the

:06:31. > :06:34.institutions, most of them are corrupt in Iran as well, I think

:06:35. > :06:41.this is something else that the people of Iran may like. It is

:06:42. > :06:44.interesting what you say because there is a strong entrepreneurial

:06:45. > :06:49.community of American Iranians who do not like what is happening with

:06:50. > :06:54.this visa. It looks as if President Trump is prepared to put up with

:06:55. > :07:00.that in order to pursue this heavy policy on visas. He doesn't actually

:07:01. > :07:06.care about the impact that will have on the attitudes of American

:07:07. > :07:10.Iranians. By the way I am definitely against such type of restrictions

:07:11. > :07:23.for Iranian citizens, or any sanction which harms all the people

:07:24. > :07:28.of Iran. But I support the sanctions which are targeted and are smart

:07:29. > :07:34.against the top officials and the people who abuse and violate human

:07:35. > :07:41.rights. Is it your sense that President Trump is ad hoc or just

:07:42. > :07:49.sounding like a hawk. -- hawk, or just sounding like a hawk? I feel

:07:50. > :07:56.that sometimes he is unstable and I cannot rely on his stances, but the

:07:57. > :08:02.guys that he has picked for his administration, they are hawks.

:08:03. > :08:06.Especially with respect to Iran, they are too tough. Mohsen Sazegara,

:08:07. > :08:08.thank you for joining us tonight. Should we trust our leaders to tell

:08:09. > :08:13.the truth, and is there something materially different about truth

:08:14. > :08:14.in the technological age? How do we gauge what's true,

:08:15. > :08:18.half true, or false? In the past month, new phrases have

:08:19. > :08:21.entered the political lexicon, in particular, "fake news"

:08:22. > :08:23.and "alternative facts". But what if there's another,

:08:24. > :08:25.explosive ingredient in this febrile mix - the ability,

:08:26. > :08:28.literally, to manipulate the words Here's our technology

:08:29. > :08:40.editor, David Grossman. How do we know that

:08:41. > :08:44.something happened? That we are not being

:08:45. > :08:50.fooled by fakes? Some TV trickery is

:08:51. > :08:56.pretty familiar to us. This technology, green screen

:08:57. > :08:58.or colour separation overlay, has been around in some

:08:59. > :09:04.form for decades. It allows us to convincingly give

:09:05. > :09:07.real people backdrops of virtual However, we are about to cross

:09:08. > :09:16.the threshold into a new world where it is possible to convincingly

:09:17. > :09:20.recreate known real people - famous people like politicians -

:09:21. > :09:23.and have them say or do more We're a few years, but not many

:09:24. > :09:32.years, away from a situation now where we can not only create

:09:33. > :09:39.a pretty sort of realistic environment for people,

:09:40. > :09:41.but we can also do things like manipulate their voices

:09:42. > :09:44.and manipulate their facial expressions and modulate

:09:45. > :09:49.their speech in real-time. Here we demonstrate our

:09:50. > :10:02.method in a live setup. This is the Face 2 Face

:10:03. > :10:12.Project, a collaboration between Stanford University,

:10:13. > :10:13.the Max Planck Institute and the University

:10:14. > :10:15.of Erlangen-Nuremberg. As we can see, we are able

:10:16. > :10:18.to generate a realistic They can take the facial expressions

:10:19. > :10:22.of one person and match them onto the features

:10:23. > :10:24.of another in real-time. The results are already

:10:25. > :10:26.amazing and only going It seems like they are being

:10:27. > :10:29.developed out with a specific ethical framework that helped them

:10:30. > :10:32.to actually assess before technologies are developed,

:10:33. > :10:33.the actual implications The perfect environments for fake

:10:34. > :10:40.news, for a widespread This hugely damaging image

:10:41. > :10:45.of John Kerry supposedly sharing a stage with Vietnam protester

:10:46. > :10:54.Jane Fonda was actually Now the company that

:10:55. > :11:01.invented Photoshop, Adobe, has unveiled a new,

:11:02. > :11:03.potentially game changing At this event in November,

:11:04. > :11:07.Adobe demonstrated Voco, which, loaded with 20 minutes

:11:08. > :11:10.of real sample voice, can then make someone

:11:11. > :11:13.say anything just by typing it in. Adobe said the auyo audio will be

:11:14. > :11:30.watermarked so that fakes are easy to spot but that may not

:11:31. > :11:32.stop them spreading. Often the things we see as fake news

:11:33. > :11:35.or false stories are actually very easily debunked

:11:36. > :11:37.in a matter of seconds. But it doesn't necessarily stop

:11:38. > :11:39.them from spreading, partly because I think

:11:40. > :11:44.the mechanisms now are so quick in terms of how virality is created

:11:45. > :11:48.online but also because people But is there a flip side

:11:49. > :11:54.to this technology? If it makes the fake seem real,

:11:55. > :11:58.what does it do to our perception Will it allow those

:11:59. > :12:05.intent on deceiving us to dismiss cold, solid, hard video

:12:06. > :12:10.evidence as mere trickery? It becomes a term that can be used

:12:11. > :12:23.by anyone who wants to call out something that they don't

:12:24. > :12:24.like, and spread doubt And when you have a high level

:12:25. > :12:33.of distrust in stories, and you have a high level

:12:34. > :12:38.of distrust in institutions, which we do at the moment,

:12:39. > :12:41.then a term like fake news becomes almost meaningless, because it's

:12:42. > :12:49.deployed in so many ways which actually describe

:12:50. > :12:50.things that are perfectly We've grown more sophisticated

:12:51. > :12:53.in our ability to discern However, accelerating technological

:12:54. > :13:00.change means we'll need to quickly refine how we weigh the evidence

:13:01. > :13:02.of our senses. We're joined now by Claire Wardle,

:13:03. > :13:12.Research Director at First Draft News, which aims

:13:13. > :13:14.to improve the standard of online reporting and the philosopher,

:13:15. > :13:24.Simon Blackburn, who wrote Truth - Good evening to you both in London

:13:25. > :13:30.and New York. Simon, is truth just about the most important thing? It

:13:31. > :13:34.is very important in our day-to-day lives, our sensors are adapted to

:13:35. > :13:38.telling us how the world around us is and if we don't know how the

:13:39. > :13:44.world around us is we will not behave well in it. Give an example

:13:45. > :13:49.of how senses are adapted. I'm pretty good at knowing of the bus is

:13:50. > :13:53.bearing down on me and pretty good at not crossing the road if I can

:13:54. > :13:57.see one bearing down on me. I would be much worse in life if I could not

:13:58. > :14:01.see that was a bus bearing down on me so I need the truth about that

:14:02. > :14:04.kind of thing and that is true of all kinds of ways I behave in my

:14:05. > :14:10.environment. I need to know whether the food I am looking at is

:14:11. > :14:15.poisonous, I need to be able to rely on various deliveries of sense,

:14:16. > :14:23.sound, and of course trust in things that people tell me. But it was ever

:14:24. > :14:30.thus. Is there a difference now as technology change things?

:14:31. > :14:38.Communication has exploded so we get communications from very different

:14:39. > :14:43.parts of the world, not just from our neighbours, our parents. Big

:14:44. > :14:49.communications from media outlets, fake media outlets and so one.

:14:50. > :14:54.Sifting what we are told, whether it is trustworthy, becomes much harder.

:14:55. > :15:01.We cannot go behind the scenes. I cannot see what the truth is about

:15:02. > :15:08.what Bush is saying if someone else shows me some bizarre things. In a

:15:09. > :15:14.way, you make it your mission not to be a single sister but to find a way

:15:15. > :15:19.in which we can engage the truth. Do you think the technology that has

:15:20. > :15:25.just been explained in that film will make a huge difference? People

:15:26. > :15:30.look at people's bases and think they can trust their eyes, trust

:15:31. > :15:36.what they see, and it is false. Absolutely. In the same way that

:15:37. > :15:40.photo editing software and video editing software is on a laptop,

:15:41. > :15:46.anyone in the world can create visuals. Because of technology they

:15:47. > :15:50.move at huge speed across the world. Our brains are adapted to trust

:15:51. > :15:55.visuals more. As technology becomes easier and cheaper that is why we

:15:56. > :16:01.have at this explosion of false information. I suppose the more

:16:02. > :16:06.people there are checking to find out it is false. How do you get at

:16:07. > :16:11.the truth? We are having lots of people talking about news literacy

:16:12. > :16:16.projects and educating people to stop and check. We're looking at our

:16:17. > :16:19.phones and scrolling quickly. Although we might know to be

:16:20. > :16:25.critical, sometimes things that are too good to be true, it is very easy

:16:26. > :16:31.to click share. We do not stop and check when we should do. Politicians

:16:32. > :16:35.particularly through the centuries have all tried to manipulate the

:16:36. > :16:40.truth one way or another at different times. In a sense, is it

:16:41. > :16:43.not easy because you can sift through and make decisions yourself?

:16:44. > :16:50.Is it not easier to get information to the access? As human beings, we

:16:51. > :16:57.want information to make us feel better. We are in a polarised world.

:16:58. > :17:00.You sit in groups of people you'd think are the same as you and you

:17:01. > :17:06.want information to make you feel better. It is easier to double check

:17:07. > :17:13.and Google something that does not necessarily mean we are doing that.

:17:14. > :17:19.What will it do to us? I find it destabilising sometimes if I do not

:17:20. > :17:27.know what is true and what is false. It is difficult to predict. If

:17:28. > :17:30.technologies do proliferate in the way described and they become very

:17:31. > :17:34.popular and everyone is using them, I should have thought one possible

:17:35. > :17:39.reaction, my own reaction for example, would be in a sense to

:17:40. > :17:43.retreat. That is very bad for democracy. If I say I am not going

:17:44. > :17:49.to believe anything about President Trump, I do not believe anything

:17:50. > :17:52.about Theresa May, that means I am retreating from my historic duties

:17:53. > :17:59.as a citizen, which is to inform myself about policy and what these

:18:00. > :18:05.people are offering. The advent of global communication could actually

:18:06. > :18:10.signal a retreat. It could indeed. It is a rational response to a world

:18:11. > :18:16.in which nothing is trustworthy. If you cannot trust anything, do not

:18:17. > :18:22.believe anything. Do not act. That basis for action, does that come

:18:23. > :18:27.from early education? Had you get a basis for action? Our senses tell us

:18:28. > :18:31.how the world is. We are very good at using them put up relying on

:18:32. > :18:36.other people, that is something you learn when they are trustworthy and

:18:37. > :18:40.when they are not. Unless you can get some experience in both sides of

:18:41. > :18:49.it, you're not going to be a fully performing, fully active adult. Does

:18:50. > :18:54.that fill you with dread? I have to say, it is a pretty troubling time

:18:55. > :18:58.over here in the US. We are seeing people retreat and say they are not

:18:59. > :19:02.looking at the news. People are already starting to say I am

:19:03. > :19:08.confused, worried and scared and I do worry about what that means. Is

:19:09. > :19:12.this now about the loss of control? There are so much of people's lives

:19:13. > :19:19.which are not in their control. It is another worrying aspect of modern

:19:20. > :19:22.life. I think certainly people feel overwhelmed by technology does it

:19:23. > :19:26.comes to them even when they are not ready for it. You see an update on

:19:27. > :19:32.your phone about something you did not expect. People feel out of

:19:33. > :19:36.control and overwhelmed. There is a huge proliferation. There used to be

:19:37. > :19:40.big blocks of media you could do to four different things. You knew what

:19:41. > :19:46.they did. There is a preferential of all sorts of websites. A lot of them

:19:47. > :19:51.are in high resolution, high technology sites. They look very

:19:52. > :19:57.ill. How you meant to know if they are real or false? You're not meant

:19:58. > :20:01.to know. That is the point. There are very systematic campaign is now

:20:02. > :20:05.to ensure people see the same messages. Over time we are seeing

:20:06. > :20:08.networks of information and systematic campaign to try to

:20:09. > :20:13.persuade people. It is very sophisticated. As much as we try to

:20:14. > :20:19.teach people to be critical, a lot of these things are really easy to

:20:20. > :20:22.fullback on. The people who benefit are dictators, people who manipulate

:20:23. > :20:27.the news for their own ends. Absolutely. We can see, even within

:20:28. > :20:31.Europe and the elections that are coming up with France, Germany and

:20:32. > :20:35.the Netherlands without huge concerns about systematic campaigns

:20:36. > :20:39.quit using social networks to change public opinion. That is definitely

:20:40. > :20:53.what is on the cards. How do you counter that? Thank God for the BBC.

:20:54. > :21:02.You looked at gold standard. Touch wood, we have the Times, the BBC.

:21:03. > :21:09.ITV and our colleagues. Now, of course, how long that will remain

:21:10. > :21:14.and whether indeed the BBC will, for example, remain Independent in the

:21:15. > :21:19.way that Donald Trump has ensured virtually no State Department can be

:21:20. > :21:22.Independent in the USA. That kind of dictatorship, that kind of change in

:21:23. > :21:30.Democratic politics is very worrying. Then we really do lose our

:21:31. > :21:32.morals. She told EU leaders she wanted

:21:33. > :21:36.to build a "strong partnership" with the EU and pledged the UK

:21:37. > :21:39.would be a "good friend This went down well

:21:40. > :21:42.with Chancellor Merkel. Better than her relationship

:21:43. > :21:44.with Donald Trump, After publishing the Brexit White

:21:45. > :21:48.Paper this week, we have a decent idea of what the government wants

:21:49. > :21:51.to get out if its negotiation. But what about those

:21:52. > :21:52.on the other side? Or policy editor, Chris Cook, has

:21:53. > :21:55.been speaking to the EU Competition Trying to find out why we still know

:21:56. > :22:06.so little. I think it is important

:22:07. > :22:09.that we leave some things for the people who will be

:22:10. > :22:11.in the room. The EU negotiator, the UK,

:22:12. > :22:13.and negotiating team because they will have to put

:22:14. > :22:18.together a new puzzle because some of the obvious signals from the UK

:22:19. > :22:23.Government is that they want a new relationship, not

:22:24. > :22:25.the Norwegian, not the Swiss, Therefore I am very careful not

:22:26. > :22:34.to prejudge things because I think the people in the room,

:22:35. > :22:40.they will have a task which is sufficiently difficult

:22:41. > :22:43.without the rest of us trying to... You have an insight

:22:44. > :22:51.into what Britain is planning which lots of people don't have

:22:52. > :22:55.because you've actually seen the undertakings they gave

:22:56. > :22:57.to Nissan and you've judged Well, of course we stay in touch

:22:58. > :23:05.with the UK Government on issues of this kind,

:23:06. > :23:08.just as well with a number The letter in itself,

:23:09. > :23:12.we don't have concerns of state You don't think that while we're EU

:23:13. > :23:24.members at the British Government is committing funds to Nissan

:23:25. > :23:26.which wouldn't be available That would be a very

:23:27. > :23:31.broad thing to answer. In the letter and the debates

:23:32. > :23:33.we have no concerns. Is there any public

:23:34. > :23:35.spending involved in this? Well, I think, eventually,

:23:36. > :23:40.probably you will know. But, for us, having seen

:23:41. > :23:42.the letter, we have no concern That is as well as we stay in touch

:23:43. > :23:51.with the number of other Is your understanding

:23:52. > :23:57.still that the commission's intention is that we'll have

:23:58. > :24:12.like the divorce proceeding and then in Brexit terms and then

:24:13. > :24:20.a trade negotiation? That is the most simple approach.

:24:21. > :24:25.The figure out where you stand and how you move on foot of it is a

:24:26. > :24:30.complex thing to be divorced and having some kind of partnership at

:24:31. > :24:34.the same time. Isn't part of the problem with this that the two

:24:35. > :24:41.things are not going to lie one to the other? Nothing will be decided

:24:42. > :24:44.until everything is decided. There will be things we want in the

:24:45. > :24:50.subsequent relationship but you might want to serve early. It seems

:24:51. > :24:54.very hard to disentangle these two things. These negotiations will be

:24:55. > :25:00.extremely complicated. Maybe you get something in between. To some

:25:01. > :25:07.degree, you can say this will happen to be solved also in a future

:25:08. > :25:12.relationship. This is definitely something where we will have a clean

:25:13. > :25:17.divide commits this can be done now. I think all of these details, they

:25:18. > :25:21.will have to be solved in the room. Not because discussions around the

:25:22. > :25:25.room. But because the responsibility of getting it right is exactly for

:25:26. > :25:29.the people who will be asked to do the deal.

:25:30. > :25:31.Time now for Viewsnight, a new feature of Newsnight.

:25:32. > :25:33.All week we've been bringing you new thoughts

:25:34. > :25:35.and ideas from a range of opinionated people.

:25:36. > :25:37.You might agree with them, disagree, or think again.

:25:38. > :25:40.Tonight, the British Senegalese activist and business

:25:41. > :27:36.The widely respected head of the American organisation

:27:37. > :27:39.Human Rights Watch, Ken Roth, expressed his surprise this

:27:40. > :27:43.week at the appointment of the new deputy head of the CIA.

:27:44. > :27:46.As you might have noticed, we follow Trump's moves closely on this

:27:47. > :27:50.programme, and at the risk of breaking BBC rules on bias, we can

:27:51. > :27:57.Mr Roth was concerned that the new deputy had previously

:27:58. > :28:01.been connected to running a CIA black site for torture.

:28:02. > :28:04.We were more concerned at the double identity of those

:28:05. > :28:11.Emily has issued a kind of denial, but whatever

:28:12. > :28:15.the truth of the allegations, we here at Newsnight fully support

:28:16. > :28:22.Before we go, you may have read in the papers

:28:23. > :28:26.Storms in the Med have left us without fancy foreign

:28:27. > :28:27.imports like lettuce, broccoli and aubergines.

:28:28. > :28:31.This sceptred isle has weathered fiercer storms than this.

:28:32. > :28:33.There was once even a time when, yes, we had no bananas.

:28:34. > :28:35.We've ransacked the archive to find some advice

:28:36. > :28:49.So, here are some useful pointers when attempting

:28:50. > :28:52.to cook that decent, honest, British vegetable that never

:28:53. > :28:54.goes out of season or fashion - the humble cabbage.

:28:55. > :28:58.Sally's cabbage has been cooked in little water with the lid on,

:28:59. > :28:59.retaining the full value of the vegetable.

:29:00. > :29:01.Sally carefully pours the water into a cup.

:29:02. > :29:06.Jane, on the other hand, has drowned her cabbage in water and

:29:07. > :29:10.apart from losing the goodness, that cabbage is a wet soggy mess with no

:29:11. > :29:36.Now, never put so much water in the cabbage again, it makes it

:29:37. > :29:43.But you'll do it quite all right tomorrow.

:29:44. > :30:04.Good evening. Still some unpleasant weather out there if you are

:30:05. > :30:11.travelling. It could well be icy ones rain, sleet and snow meanders

:30:12. > :30:12.northwards. More rain in the South later. Let's take a