:00:20. > :00:27.The first peoples houses are ready for Harold Macmillan to inspect.
:00:28. > :00:35.Built in 12 weeks for less than ?1000 each. You don't have to have
:00:36. > :00:46.great architecture to make a great place to live. But Londoners could
:00:47. > :00:52.learn to be grateful that so much of the new architecture has been as
:00:53. > :00:58.good as this. The leader of the GLC looked on as Mrs Thatcher defended
:00:59. > :01:05.their sales policy. She left to a chorus of chance. It is very
:01:06. > :01:12.depressing. When they say the price range,... Two-bedroom flats in this
:01:13. > :01:20.Chelsea Street are going for seven times their original price. It is
:01:21. > :01:26.about making money, why should I feel bad? The government said it had
:01:27. > :01:32.cut the average cost of a mortgage by 100 and pounds per month from
:01:33. > :01:36.1990. House prices have gone up so much that you cannot get a deposit
:01:37. > :01:42.together, you cannot get a mortgage from a bank or building society.
:01:43. > :01:53.Everything is too expensive. We need every single penny. It is gone
:01:54. > :01:59.before we even think about it. For far too long, we have not built
:02:00. > :02:03.enough houses. Relative to population size, Britain has had
:02:04. > :02:17.Western Europe's lowest rate of house building for three decades.
:02:18. > :02:22.Not every job comes with its own central London accommodation -
:02:23. > :02:24.rent free and walking distance to work.
:02:25. > :02:25.Britain's housing crisis is legendary: Unaffordable,
:02:26. > :02:31.unattainable and - it sometimes feels - insolvable.
:02:32. > :02:33.Tonight, we dedicate the whole programme to housing -
:02:34. > :02:35.hearing from people forced into emergency accommodation, people
:02:36. > :02:38.who can't afford to buy a home, and people seeking radical measures
:02:39. > :02:40.to stop second home owners where they live.
:02:41. > :02:42.We'll get reaction from the Housing Minister.
:02:43. > :02:44.And I'll be asking him what the government's plans today
:02:45. > :02:56.House prices are a national obsession for good reason.
:02:57. > :03:01.An average terraced house in England and Wales cost ?41,000 in 1995.
:03:02. > :03:10.A similar house in London moved in price from ?74,000 in 1995, to
:03:11. > :03:17.Had the price of hamburgers risen with house prices
:03:18. > :03:23.over that time, a Big Mac would now cost ?7.75.
:03:24. > :03:25.Some of the effects of high house prices are
:03:26. > :03:32.For example the 2011 census revealed the first ever decline in
:03:33. > :03:36.Some of the effects though, are much more
:03:37. > :03:41.For example, academic research suggests that these high
:03:42. > :03:43.house prices are probably depressing the number of children that young
:03:44. > :03:49.It really matters in a very fundamental way that young
:03:50. > :03:54.people are currently paying very high rents to landlords and
:03:55. > :03:57.struggling to put together the deposit required to own their own
:03:58. > :04:02.Here is a graph showing how much London first-time buyers had to
:04:03. > :04:10.save in the late 1990s for a deposit.
:04:11. > :04:14.It starts just under 20% of their income.
:04:15. > :04:16.Now here is a line for the North West.
:04:17. > :04:25.It is lower down because things are bit easier there.
:04:26. > :04:32.In the north-west, it is 50%. This is partly about supply. This line
:04:33. > :04:36.shows the growth in the housing stock going back two centuries. You
:04:37. > :04:42.don't need to look too closely, what you need to notice is that we never
:04:43. > :04:48.get very far above 1% a year for very long. And, since the 1980s,
:04:49. > :04:56.that chronic problem of undersupply has got even worse. The green belt,
:04:57. > :05:01.we have identified areas of the country which are near to major
:05:02. > :05:05.centres of employment and underdeveloped and we have
:05:06. > :05:08.designated them as hard to build on. Furthermore, we had problems with
:05:09. > :05:13.local authorities. Remember, they are elected by people who live in
:05:14. > :05:18.areas now, not who live in them for years to come and that makes them
:05:19. > :05:24.against development. Some have even gone as far as the junior open
:05:25. > :05:26.population projections of the can planning applications.
:05:27. > :05:29.The Bank of England estimates that the
:05:30. > :05:32.cost of borrowing for someone with 25% equity in their house was 8.75%
:05:33. > :05:39.Then it was 5.6% in 2007, then 2.98% in 2017.
:05:40. > :05:43.That easy credit is a major part of explaining the
:05:44. > :05:48.There's plenty else for governments to do.
:05:49. > :05:51.While the share of people renting has risen, for example,
:05:52. > :05:53.the rules on renting don't really reflect that.
:05:54. > :05:57.Housing is an area that sees lots of little initiatives, but
:05:58. > :06:06.That was Chris Cook, our policy editor.
:06:07. > :06:14.He's with me now, as is our Political Editor, Nick Watt.
:06:15. > :06:20.We got that large package of measurements from the government
:06:21. > :06:25.today, how did they add up? The White Paper is very striking in the
:06:26. > :06:29.sense in which it echoes. The government accepts there is a
:06:30. > :06:32.housing crisis and accept that rents are too high and affordability is a
:06:33. > :06:37.problem and it says things like this is what we are worried about for the
:06:38. > :06:44.future and it is happening now. In that context, it is very striking,
:06:45. > :06:47.that the measures don't really seem to add up to the urgency of the
:06:48. > :06:54.message. There are for example, nothing much on the green belt, not
:06:55. > :07:03.a lot on rental regulation, what is most interesting, is quite an odd
:07:04. > :07:06.narrow bed. I mentioned in the package, some councils effectively
:07:07. > :07:10.forged their own estimates so they can say, we do not need those new
:07:11. > :07:14.houses and they can protect their own little corners. The government
:07:15. > :07:19.will not let them do that potentially as we go forward. What
:07:20. > :07:22.that might mean is you will end up with situations where green belt
:07:23. > :07:28.places in the north and north-west will suddenly find they have been
:07:29. > :07:31.told they need to build more houses and they will find they have a
:07:32. > :07:35.choice between identifying their beautiful town centres or building
:07:36. > :07:39.on what might be scrubby green belt and that might be a wedge by which
:07:40. > :07:44.we can move the argument about places we should protect and places
:07:45. > :07:49.we shouldn't protect going forwards. What do you think is driving this
:07:50. > :07:54.fundamentally? It is quite something when a government in its seventh
:07:55. > :08:07.year describes a fundamental area of as broken and that is what Theresa
:08:08. > :08:09.May has done in the White Paper. Is delivering on the commitment she
:08:10. > :08:12.made when she launched her bid for the Conservative leadership last
:08:13. > :08:14.summer. When she was trying to get and replace David Cameron, she
:08:15. > :08:17.almost cast herself as an opposition leader Wendy said she wanted to lead
:08:18. > :08:21.a country for everyone, not just the privileged few. She pledged sweeping
:08:22. > :08:24.programme of reform and near the top of the list was housing and there
:08:25. > :08:27.was a bit of a jibe at David Cameron, she said you would never
:08:28. > :08:31.solve that problem unless you narrowed the gap between those who
:08:32. > :08:37.inherit and those who do not inherit. Wind forward seven months,
:08:38. > :08:42.we have similar rhetoric today from the Prime Minister, but the big
:08:43. > :08:46.question is does it match the substance? There are Tories who are
:08:47. > :08:53.happy tonight that the green belt seems to be OK, but there are other
:08:54. > :08:57.Tories who are wondering whether Sajid Javid and Gavin Barwell, went
:08:58. > :09:04.back to first principles, dreamt up a grand plan, but essentially, the
:09:05. > :09:08.plan has come in under expectations. Take land banking, this is the
:09:09. > :09:12.hoarding of land by developers, one of the big things that really holds
:09:13. > :09:15.up house building and there are some people saying that unless you
:09:16. > :09:20.actually punished developers for according land for many years, you
:09:21. > :09:22.will never do with it. These concerns are being voiced by
:09:23. > :09:33.Conservatives, but there is one person who is able to talk freely
:09:34. > :09:35.and criticise the Shadow Housing Minister and I spoke to him earlier
:09:36. > :09:37.and this is what he told me. Today was a plan that was beyond
:09:38. > :09:40.belief and what we should have had from ministers was not a priority
:09:41. > :09:43.after seven years. Sajid Javid told the House
:09:44. > :09:45.of Commons to have a proper conversation about housing need
:09:46. > :09:48.and what we needed was a big programme to build more affordable
:09:49. > :09:55.homes to rent and to buy. Joining us here now,
:09:56. > :10:05.three people who speak for thousands more in the problems they've
:10:06. > :10:07.encountered finding a home. They'll put their concerns to
:10:08. > :10:10.Gavin Barwell, Minister for Housing, Sam Oakley, Nicola
:10:11. > :10:15.Stone, Camilla Hayle, Thank you very much for coming in
:10:16. > :10:18.and I am going to start with you Nicola. Try and claim to the
:10:19. > :10:21.Minister and those watching, what you are going through, your daily
:10:22. > :10:27.commute and your problems with housing. I moved out of private
:10:28. > :10:31.renting to live with my parents. I commute an hour and 20 and I am a
:10:32. > :10:38.teacher. I am trying to save money, that has been offset by the amount I
:10:39. > :10:41.paid to commute. That is each way, twice a day and you start work
:10:42. > :10:47.presumably early. Eight o'clock. It is a 12 hour day. Sam, give us a
:10:48. > :10:53.sense of where you are? My partner and I have been living together for
:10:54. > :10:59.a few years and we have good jobs, decent money, but we cannot save a
:11:00. > :11:03.penny, frankly. We save as much as we can but it is not anywhere near
:11:04. > :11:09.scratching the surface of what we need for a deposit. You are in
:11:10. > :11:14.private rented accommodation? Yes, for five years. I would save 40% of
:11:15. > :11:18.our income goes directly on rent. That is before taking into account
:11:19. > :11:25.other bills. Even though you're trying to buy as a couple? Exactly.
:11:26. > :11:30.We have looked at other options including shared ownership. The
:11:31. > :11:35.costs of that are staggering. Camilla, give us a sense of where
:11:36. > :11:39.you are? You moved back in with your mother. Yes. I have lived at home
:11:40. > :11:44.for seven years. I have been saving since then. I have got a healthy
:11:45. > :11:48.deposit but because of my income I cannot afford to buy a house that is
:11:49. > :11:52.suitable for my needs because I am disabled. I spoke to the council
:11:53. > :11:55.about their disabled accommodation and how I might be able to get help
:11:56. > :12:11.and they said I had saved too much money to
:12:12. > :12:16.get help from them, so I am stuck in accommodation that is not suitable.
:12:17. > :12:19.You're not even on the ground floor. Top floor and if I cannot walk at
:12:20. > :12:22.that time, I am stuck in the house for several weeks. What do you need
:12:23. > :12:25.to hear from the Minister and what do you want to see in the paper
:12:26. > :12:27.today that will start to solve the problem for you? I would like
:12:28. > :12:29.something that things about the predicament that disabled people are
:12:30. > :12:32.in, it is hard to get accommodation that suits our needs that is
:12:33. > :12:34.affordable. You have got all these restrictions. I have to be near
:12:35. > :12:38.family. We need something that helps disabled people that are working and
:12:39. > :12:41.trying to save and that gives them a boost. Sam is there enough in this
:12:42. > :12:45.document that you have seen that made you think that there was
:12:46. > :12:48.progress? I think the idea of building more houses is fantastic
:12:49. > :12:53.and building more houses on the green belt, if you ask anyone from
:12:54. > :12:57.my generation, they will welcome that warmly. That is a positive
:12:58. > :13:03.thing. The problem for us is the difference that that will make to
:13:04. > :13:07.house prices, that is so many years away. It will be a generation before
:13:08. > :13:14.that will have any impact. I like the lifetime- and think it is a
:13:15. > :13:17.great policy. I currently use the help to buy and the air nears you
:13:18. > :13:22.cannot use that until after a deposit so it does not help in that
:13:23. > :13:29.sense. The lifetime ISA will change that. It still feels a very long way
:13:30. > :13:34.away. Nicola, what do you want to get or here. What is missing. The
:13:35. > :13:39.main thing that struck me is the idea of building homes on the right
:13:40. > :13:43.places, but but -- but I think that working in a certain area, I want to
:13:44. > :13:47.be near enough to my community as a teacher so that I can be a part of
:13:48. > :13:52.it and that is not necessarily possible if you work in London or
:13:53. > :13:56.anywhere that has high housing pricing. Whether there is scope to
:13:57. > :14:00.build in the right place for me is something that is really important.
:14:01. > :14:04.There is a lot of optimism from these people. That is despite
:14:05. > :14:10.government recognising that this is a crisis and that your shadow was
:14:11. > :14:15.not quite so generous. He said it was a feeble document. Lord Kennedy
:14:16. > :14:19.said it is a Lemsip approach. There was so much expectation on this.
:14:20. > :14:25.There was so much acknowledgement of the problem and a half-hearted
:14:26. > :14:28.attempt today to solve it. I would not describe it as half-hearted. It
:14:29. > :14:33.is not surprising that the Labour Party will not welcome the proposal
:14:34. > :14:35.but if you look at the reaction from Shelter or the chartered Institute
:14:36. > :14:49.of Housing, they have John Healey called it a white flag,
:14:50. > :14:53.he said you have surrendered. You know that people like this are never
:14:54. > :14:58.going to buy a house before the age of 40 so it is all about renting. We
:14:59. > :15:04.have not surrendered, there is a change of emphasis. Historically
:15:05. > :15:08.people spoke of the party of home ownership. But we have to have an
:15:09. > :15:15.offer to people who are renting as well. So why did you not go further
:15:16. > :15:18.on some of the things that Labour has done? Labour is saying returned
:15:19. > :15:25.to regulation of the Private rental market. Looking at history you can
:15:26. > :15:34.see where that leads, a smaller rental sector. We are trying to
:15:35. > :15:38.change the market, banning and front cost and trying to encourage new
:15:39. > :15:44.people into building private rented accommodation with greater security.
:15:45. > :15:50.So there is a package to try to make renting more secure and affordable.
:15:51. > :15:55.You talked about 30 years of inaction and then all the words you
:15:56. > :16:00.use today are about encouraging or examining the operations for
:16:01. > :16:05.reforming the system and developing contributions, consulting, closely
:16:06. > :16:15.monitoring, obligating utility companies. These are incredibly
:16:16. > :16:19.tentative. Consulting on requiring local authorities, I could go on but
:16:20. > :16:24.nothing that says there any commitment. There are some clear
:16:25. > :16:28.commitments and the white paper. For example introducing a standard
:16:29. > :16:33.methodology for how we calculate and making sure local councils do not
:16:34. > :16:37.stop those tough decisions and release land. What about land
:16:38. > :16:44.banking, that could have been so simple. What to think we could have
:16:45. > :16:48.done? Put a tax on it. You have 200,000 homes you know RMT, why
:16:49. > :16:52.cannot these three people move to them tomorrow. First if you were
:16:53. > :16:58.running a development company you would need to have a land bank.
:16:59. > :17:02.Shareholders need that. So it is less the existence of land banks but
:17:03. > :17:06.how big they are because it takes too long to starting a scheme to
:17:07. > :17:11.building it out. And for me the bigger problem is when they start on
:17:12. > :17:17.site it is too long to then build a scheme out. The white paper has
:17:18. > :17:23.specific proposals to make people build much quicker. People look at
:17:24. > :17:27.the Tory government and remember Thatcher, she promised everyone the
:17:28. > :17:31.right to buy and you are promising everyone access to a consultation
:17:32. > :17:35.and these guys have acknowledged that even if new building began
:17:36. > :17:44.tomorrow it is too late for them. We're promising far more than a
:17:45. > :17:50.consultation. Just something short of 40,000 people have helped to buy
:17:51. > :17:53.their own home. So you're happy customer not at all, the white paper
:17:54. > :17:57.is clear we have made progress but nowhere near good enough. If all
:17:58. > :18:01.three of the people you have tonight on the panel who live in south
:18:02. > :18:06.London as I do, and they represent thousands shut out by the housing
:18:07. > :18:11.market. So I'm not going to sit and say I'm satisfied. Ayew reassured?
:18:12. > :18:18.To a certain degree, I think the main problem is the generational
:18:19. > :18:25.issue. And also the costs going into buying a house, if we could get a
:18:26. > :18:33.deposit together then it is an extra 15 grand in fees on top of that.
:18:34. > :18:38.Whether stamp duty or whatever. It would've been great to see something
:18:39. > :18:42.on duty. Whether it helps old people downsize or helps young people get
:18:43. > :18:48.into their first home. I would like to have seen that in that paper. We
:18:49. > :18:51.are taking action on stamp duty to reform the system so ordinary people
:18:52. > :18:56.are paying less than they would have paid a few years ago. Of course I
:18:57. > :19:01.understand it is an additional cost. We need to make the home buying
:19:02. > :19:07.system fairer. Do you want to come back one other point is that the
:19:08. > :19:10.Minister has made? I think there has been nothing there for disabled
:19:11. > :19:14.people. And there are young disabled people just like me with the same
:19:15. > :19:20.problems these guys have but then our own problems on top. Just
:19:21. > :19:27.nothing, that is not considered a lot of the time in policies. This is
:19:28. > :19:30.a concern, we changed this area of policy so now there are
:19:31. > :19:35.accessibility standards that councils are required to use. There
:19:36. > :19:40.are higher standards that they can apply. It is not the case that you
:19:41. > :19:45.need every home to be at the higher level. If we did it would make the
:19:46. > :19:50.supply problem worse. But we need to make sure there are sufficient homes
:19:51. > :19:54.for people like Camilla. She lives in London and the Greater London
:19:55. > :19:59.authority has applied these standards. But she raises an
:20:00. > :20:03.important point, not just about the total number of homes but getting
:20:04. > :20:04.the right mix of homes for the changing demography of our
:20:05. > :20:07.population. Thank you for coming in. We're going to keep the minister
:20:08. > :20:10.here as we explore what happens In the next film we meet three
:20:11. > :20:14.individuals, each kicked out of their private lodging,
:20:15. > :20:16.when things got tough. In one case, with
:20:17. > :20:18.a two day old baby. They were residents of
:20:19. > :20:21.Waltham Forest in North East London, They were moved out
:20:22. > :20:26.to the Hertfordshire town of Welwyn Garden City and given
:20:27. > :20:29.a studio room in which to This is Boundary house,
:20:30. > :21:02.Welwyn Garden City, There is 45 studio flats
:21:03. > :21:23.here and as I know, This is the single room where me
:21:24. > :21:38.and my two kids sleep. This is a studio flat,
:21:39. > :21:43.and you've got two children? My partner and I were living
:21:44. > :22:01.in a property with the kids and he got into some trouble
:22:02. > :22:06.and he's in prison at the moment. And they evicted me
:22:07. > :22:08.from the property because it was And I got evicted, went
:22:09. > :22:12.to the council, spent Until about 6:30 in the evening
:22:13. > :22:20.they told me they were sending I'd never heard
:22:21. > :22:23.of this place before. What did the council said,
:22:24. > :22:24.because presumably you've spoken to the council
:22:25. > :22:28.about the cramped conditions here? Yes, I e-mailed them
:22:29. > :22:30.because when you phone them, I e-mailed them from October
:22:31. > :22:36.and nobody responded to me. Why did you move
:22:37. > :23:15.here, what happened? I don't know, I put in a request
:23:16. > :23:18.for emergency accommodation. I've lived the last, what, ten years
:23:19. > :23:32.in the borough, in Waltham Forest. And I have obviously a connection
:23:33. > :23:34.there, I studied there, My whole family is there,
:23:35. > :23:37.my whole family. I have no-one within minimum an hour
:23:38. > :23:41.from here, no-one at all. My biggest worry is the heating,
:23:42. > :23:45.obviously because, like, she needs to sleep warm at night
:23:46. > :23:49.and she doesn't. I mean, if I'm cold,
:23:50. > :23:51.I can imagine how she is. I don't even know how
:23:52. > :23:57.it functions properly. It has come on, which was probably
:23:58. > :24:07.four days ago the last The day I was discharged
:24:08. > :24:11.from the hospital I came here around Right, there was electric and gas,
:24:12. > :24:18.but there was no heating. So I phoned the emergency number
:24:19. > :24:21.at ten o'clock at night and let And the room was freezing cold
:24:22. > :24:28.and they said all they can They said they would get back
:24:29. > :24:35.to me in the morning. 11 o'clock came and no one came
:24:36. > :24:38.so I had to phone them again and they said they had
:24:39. > :25:07.no message recorded. Abigail, I've just been visiting
:25:08. > :25:10.some of the women in the block. They've been moved here
:25:11. > :25:12.from central London. Can you tell me how long
:25:13. > :25:16.you've been here for? I've been here for
:25:17. > :25:18.almost three years. So this year in March will be three
:25:19. > :25:24.years since I've been here. How did you end up
:25:25. > :25:36.here, what happened? I used to rent privately
:25:37. > :25:39.and the landlord realised I was pregnant and he didn't want
:25:40. > :25:42.any babies in the property. And the council was like, we don't
:25:43. > :25:49.have any properties available, the only thing we can do is just
:25:50. > :25:58.send you off to Hertfordshire. Basically everything
:25:59. > :26:00.is in the same room. The kitchen, the bedroom,
:26:01. > :26:04.the sitting room, everything, And then this is basically
:26:05. > :26:12.the living room which is I work in London as well so it
:26:13. > :26:20.hasn't been easy for me to keep Travelling like, 20 miles to work
:26:21. > :26:26.every day is a nightmare. I spend more than half my wages
:26:27. > :26:36.on transportation fees. My older daughter, Maya,
:26:37. > :26:41.she knows that way we live is different from where most people
:26:42. > :26:44.live because every time we go to other places there is a separate
:26:45. > :26:47.kitchen and a separate bathroom and a separate living
:26:48. > :26:50.room and bedroom. She notices the difference
:26:51. > :26:54.between there and this place. Obviously she's a girl growing up,
:26:55. > :26:57.she wants to play around, she wants to have a normal life
:26:58. > :27:00.like a little girl, Waltham Forest council told us
:27:01. > :27:18.they do all they can to house people in the borough and it's working
:27:19. > :27:20.to repair any substandard Joining me now, Roger
:27:21. > :27:23.Harding from Shelter, And Gavin Barwell,
:27:24. > :27:35.Housing Minister. Your thoughts? There is the most
:27:36. > :27:39.shocking illustration of the scale of the problem we're trying to
:27:40. > :27:43.tackle. Going back years ago the most common reason for homelessness
:27:44. > :27:48.would be relationship breakdown and today it is people losing private
:27:49. > :27:53.rented sector tenancy. The last lady in the clip is someone who is
:27:54. > :28:00.working. She had a job but simply cannot find any accommodation she
:28:01. > :28:04.can afford. This is everywhere, something you've recognised
:28:05. > :28:08.throughout the UK. Throughout the country and not confined to London.
:28:09. > :28:14.Seen the full range of the housing crisis from people at the sharpest
:28:15. > :28:19.end of it. To raise children in one room, younger people priced out,
:28:20. > :28:23.children living at home with their parents longer than they should have
:28:24. > :28:31.too. Could this be solved if more council homes were built? Definitely
:28:32. > :28:34.but also a range of genuinely affordable homes. We're not good
:28:35. > :28:39.enough and the homes we are building are not affordable at the moment to
:28:40. > :28:44.many people on low to middle incomes. One of the reasons for that
:28:45. > :28:49.is land is too expensive. We have a development model that encourages
:28:50. > :28:57.developer -- developers to bid for Elan. The one who wins is the most
:28:58. > :29:02.bullish about what they can charge and minimising contributions to the
:29:03. > :29:07.local community. The simplest way then to get that supply of housing,
:29:08. > :29:12.the easiest way to allocate housing to those who need it and make it
:29:13. > :29:16.fair and affordable is to let councils build. That is part of the
:29:17. > :29:22.answer and the white paper says that. It is not the only solution,
:29:23. > :29:27.because people want the opportunity to own themselves. But if you look
:29:28. > :29:31.at the rising level of homelessness that is definitely part of the
:29:32. > :29:36.answer. But at the moment there is the borrowing cap. They can do that
:29:37. > :29:42.through housing companies, there is extra money in the white paper and
:29:43. > :29:45.also housing associations can help people. There's an added ?1.4
:29:46. > :29:49.billion in the Autumn Statement and Willis and also to housing charities
:29:50. > :29:56.that said the budget was just shared ownership. At the moment they cannot
:29:57. > :29:58.increase the amount they borrow because it goes on to the national
:29:59. > :30:11.sum. Why not let them...? this is something for future
:30:12. > :30:16.generations, it is not about more debt for the country, it is about
:30:17. > :30:19.solving the crisis. It is additional government borrowing and we need to
:30:20. > :30:23.find other ways to get around the problem. It's if you look at the
:30:24. > :30:25.capital budget we have for housing, we are going to double it. They do
:30:26. > :30:55.not even keep the proceeds from right to buy. Why could they
:30:56. > :30:58.not keep 100%. We use some of that money to pay off debt but we give
:30:59. > :31:00.them enough money to replace it. Historically with Right To Buy, it
:31:01. > :31:02.helped people, but the homes were not replaced and since we
:31:03. > :31:04.reinvigorated it, we have insisted that those homes need to be
:31:05. > :31:07.replaced. The consequence of not doing this issue push more people
:31:08. > :31:09.into the private sector. You have admitted you cannot regulate it
:31:10. > :31:12.enough. We need more affordable housing. We are doing that, putting
:31:13. > :31:14.an extra money and the budget is increasing. The money that we have
:31:15. > :31:16.given, is the biggest ever budget London has had for affordable
:31:17. > :31:19.housing. The new money is definitely very welcome. It is great to see. We
:31:20. > :31:24.could be a lot more ambitious on this. After the Second World War,
:31:25. > :31:28.the country was genuinely on the verge of bankruptcy, we managed to
:31:29. > :31:35.have the ambition to build a huge new generation council homes, and we
:31:36. > :31:39.build a wide variety of homes and we have lost that will and drive to
:31:40. > :31:44.create that. The White Paper today asks a lot of the right questions,
:31:45. > :31:47.but what I would really like to see from the government is that the
:31:48. > :31:52.government comes up with answers because it is a consultation, not a
:31:53. > :31:56.firm set of proposals. It is hard to know what it will deliver at the
:31:57. > :32:01.moment and we need quicker answers. We talked about being brave and
:32:02. > :32:05.ambitious five years ago, you have had thousands of consultations and
:32:06. > :32:11.recognise the problem, at what point do you do something that is
:32:12. > :32:16.recognised to be a really bold and ambitious, radical move? I don't
:32:17. > :32:19.admit that. First of all, we have done a lot, we inherited the lowest
:32:20. > :32:23.level of house building since the 1920s and it has gone up but it is
:32:24. > :32:28.not high enough. If you look at how you need to improve performance,
:32:29. > :32:31.what you are looking for is a silver bullet, a single thing... I don't
:32:32. > :32:37.think you can call it that after you have been tackling the problem for
:32:38. > :32:42.30 years and you have been in government for seven years. It is a
:32:43. > :32:46.slow flying paper aeroplane! We need a lot of different policy
:32:47. > :32:49.interventions to release more land, speed up the process to building and
:32:50. > :32:55.to diversify the range of people building homes that is what are
:32:56. > :32:58.doing. We have done this before and we are seeing across Europe, lots of
:32:59. > :33:02.other countries who are building significantly more than us and have
:33:03. > :33:06.ramped up far quicker than we have done at the moment because they have
:33:07. > :33:11.given this more of a political push then we have seen to date. We have
:33:12. > :33:15.seen more action there and in Scotland as well around creating...
:33:16. > :33:20.It is fear of doing anything that will upset the Tory days when you
:33:21. > :33:25.talk about the green belt even though it is not exactly a stately
:33:26. > :33:28.home. I agree with you entirely. It is about political priority and
:33:29. > :33:33.Theresa May has ramped up this issue. She spoke passionately
:33:34. > :33:37.outside the door of Number 10 about making this a country that works for
:33:38. > :33:39.everyone and you can only do it if you fix the broken -- Brogan has a
:33:40. > :33:41.market. What happens though if the housing
:33:42. > :33:44.problem in this country has become too big to solve with normal
:33:45. > :33:46.tweaks and adjustments. Grant Shapps - a fellow Tory -
:33:47. > :33:49.admitted today the need had come for radical change -
:33:50. > :33:51.unless we wanted to carry on having the same conversation
:33:52. > :33:53.for another five years. Some parts of the country have
:33:54. > :33:55.taken market regulation into their own hands -
:33:56. > :33:58.drastic measures to cut down on out of towners buying up all the most
:33:59. > :34:01.juicy housing stock. Evan Davies heads to both
:34:02. > :34:03.St Ives, in Cornwall, and the island of Jersey,
:34:04. > :34:05.to see what plans the locals have cooked up, to keep
:34:06. > :34:20.things affordable. Jersey may be famous
:34:21. > :34:22.for its picturesque views, But like the UK it's far more
:34:23. > :34:27.a financial services economy In fact, it's a tiny
:34:28. > :34:37.microcosm of Britain. It's only 100,000 people,
:34:38. > :34:40.but it's well off and a magnet The other feature of this place
:34:41. > :34:52.is that it's very densely populated. It doesn't always feel like it,
:34:53. > :34:54.but it's actually three times We could take another
:34:55. > :34:58.100 million people and still be So it's crowded, lots of people
:34:59. > :35:03.want to come here, that creates So complex rules here governed
:35:04. > :35:12.the allocation of homes. Providing a form of immigration
:35:13. > :35:17.control and protecting the locals. You either qualify as having full
:35:18. > :35:19.access to the housing A local estate agent
:35:20. > :35:26.explain the basics. As a qualified local you are free
:35:27. > :35:31.to rent or purchase any property, there is no entry level,
:35:32. > :35:33.there is no ceiling. As an unqualified person
:35:34. > :35:40.or somebody new to the island, that's not coming here
:35:41. > :35:44.through an employer, they unfortunately had to rent
:35:45. > :35:50.at the lower end of the market and spend ten continuous years
:35:51. > :35:52.here paying tax before they then become a entitled to purchase
:35:53. > :35:56.anything and everything. So we have a ten year
:35:57. > :36:00.qualifying period before It's the development of 35 one
:36:01. > :36:13.and a half bedroom units It is the same story
:36:14. > :36:16.with social housing, also allocated with long-term
:36:17. > :36:18.residents in mind. How do I get a social
:36:19. > :36:22.property if I'm in Jersey? Well, you firstly need to meet
:36:23. > :36:24.the criteria to be classed as residentially qualified,
:36:25. > :36:28.so that's the ten years residency. And then the following on from that
:36:29. > :36:31.come you need to apply to the affordable housing gateway
:36:32. > :36:34.which has another set of criteria which just helps us ascertain
:36:35. > :36:37.the level of need that you're actually in in order to access
:36:38. > :36:42.the market of social housing. You probably thought
:36:43. > :36:44.it was a market economy here. We control not only housing,
:36:45. > :36:52.so who can buy and who can rent, by the number of years that they've
:36:53. > :36:56.been here, we also control work and businesses through jobs licenses
:36:57. > :37:00.and the number of jobs that they can have, again determined by the length
:37:01. > :37:06.of time that somebody has been here. Francis is a tenant
:37:07. > :37:08.of the main social housing She's been here decades and worked
:37:09. > :37:14.hard as hotelier and feels I do feel I have worked
:37:15. > :37:20.and paid taxes and really, you know, when I needed help
:37:21. > :37:26.they were there to help me. Although before I had put a lot
:37:27. > :37:29.back into the community. Suppose that Jersey removed
:37:30. > :37:31.all the restrictions on housing A few more non-Jersey folk
:37:32. > :37:43.would move in, and a few more Jersey natives would move out,
:37:44. > :37:46.all would go off to college Well, we are used to markets
:37:47. > :37:50.and their inequalities. We know that the rich get nice cars
:37:51. > :37:54.and the poor maybe get none. Is it acceptable that locals can be
:37:55. > :38:06.priced out of their own community? From Jersey to Guernsey,
:38:07. > :38:09.even to Liechtenstein, micro-states have often controlled
:38:10. > :38:12.entry and ownership and it's been considered and acceptable
:38:13. > :38:17.form of self protection. But is something similar
:38:18. > :38:19.to the Jersey method relevant Well, toes are being put
:38:20. > :38:28.in the water here in Again, it's a nice place,
:38:29. > :38:40.lots of people want to be here. And wealthy second home for example
:38:41. > :38:44.want to buy houses here. The issue is not foreigners,
:38:45. > :38:46.but it is still about the balance between outsiders
:38:47. > :38:48.and permanent residents. There are two forms
:38:49. > :38:50.of housing which are excluded I think if we carry on the way
:38:51. > :38:55.we are, we are just about a generation away of St Ives
:38:56. > :38:57.becoming a ghost town. All those people who live here,
:38:58. > :39:00.turn this beautiful looking place into a thriving community,
:39:01. > :39:04.would not be able to live here, therefore they wouldn't
:39:05. > :39:06.be able to work here, the shops wouldn't get staff,
:39:07. > :39:13.the restaurants wouldn't get staff. And as I say, it would be shut
:39:14. > :39:16.for most of the year. Last May, they had a referendum
:39:17. > :39:19.on a local plan to change things. Any new build, from the time
:39:20. > :39:25.that the plan is made, and it was passed into law
:39:26. > :39:29.on the 29th of December, any new build has to be
:39:30. > :39:34.lived in as a whole. The effect is there
:39:35. > :39:43.will be two markets. For existing homes, an open
:39:44. > :39:45.market, and for new-build Only locals can buy new-build houses
:39:46. > :39:51.and they will only be able to sell The precise effects
:39:52. > :39:58.are hard to know. The whole thought process behind
:39:59. > :40:00.it is completely wrong. It is going to only increase second
:40:01. > :40:03.home value in the town, make it harder for affordability
:40:04. > :40:05.for the local people. And land value is going to remain
:40:06. > :40:08.very high, so the developers are going to disappear
:40:09. > :40:10.and go elsewhere. Now you can see the
:40:11. > :40:16.locals' difficulty. Even if they could build
:40:17. > :40:18.loads and loads and loads of extra homes around here,
:40:19. > :40:22.without ruining the place, well, it wouldn't solve the problem
:40:23. > :40:25.because all that would happen is lots and lots and lots
:40:26. > :40:27.of outsiders would come There is huge demand,
:40:28. > :40:32.that is why they think you have to have a rule
:40:33. > :40:39.about who gets the homes. What happens in St Ives doesn't
:40:40. > :40:48.necessarily stay in St Ives. London has some of the same
:40:49. > :40:50.problems, as do other crowded, Is it possible to contemplate
:40:51. > :40:54.that these other places might resort Joining us now, Deyan Sudjic,
:40:55. > :41:04.director of the Design Museum Daisy May Hudson, documentary-maker
:41:05. > :41:06.Patrik Schumacher, director and principal of Zaha Hadid
:41:07. > :41:18.Architects. A warm welcome to all of you. Is
:41:19. > :41:24.market intervention the right way to go? It is an emergency button but is
:41:25. > :41:32.it time to press it? I believe so. I am not speaking as an architect,
:41:33. > :41:38.acting professionally, but as a thinker and someone who is in
:41:39. > :41:41.various think tanks. I'm thinking about policy and thinking ahead and
:41:42. > :41:45.looking at the White Paper and finding it is not radical enough, I
:41:46. > :41:50.agree with the Labour Party, but it is not radical in another direction.
:41:51. > :41:56.I would expect market processes to solve a lot of these problems, where
:41:57. > :42:05.far too many restrictions are placed on developers. We are suspect to
:42:06. > :42:10.unit mixers... You think it is too restrictive for those who want to
:42:11. > :42:18.develop? I agree that the housing market is broken. But when you see
:42:19. > :42:22.St Ives saying we will not sell new bills to out-of-towners or Jersey
:42:23. > :42:27.saying, we have to stay here ten years before you get to buy a place
:42:28. > :42:33.in Jersey, is that the right cure? No. That is an intervention. They
:42:34. > :42:38.are the same problems facing parts of London were the same problems
:42:39. > :42:43.face St Ives, that school teachers or policemen or restaurant owners
:42:44. > :42:48.cannot afford to stay in parts of London which have come by to forget.
:42:49. > :42:52.The market has distorted the way that we live in large parts of the
:42:53. > :42:57.capital and other cities. This is all over the UK. The Lake District,
:42:58. > :43:02.the Cotswolds, anywhere where there are beautiful second home villages,
:43:03. > :43:06.should they all do this? There are two ways of welcoming foreign
:43:07. > :43:13.investment. Some of it is bringing in money to invest build to rent and
:43:14. > :43:20.another lot is bringing in for second homes which are also use,
:43:21. > :43:24.they are still useful, because they are global and reporters who have
:43:25. > :43:29.their second home to do business. When he says it is too restrictive,
:43:30. > :43:34.too confining for developers or building, what is your sense?
:43:35. > :43:37.Through my experience of activism around London, working with
:43:38. > :43:41.different residents and different estates across London, I have
:43:42. > :43:47.noticed that there are restrictions put on developers and they are still
:43:48. > :43:50.managing to bypass them. They are not building enough affordable
:43:51. > :43:56.housing and they are using loopholes to invest in minute amounts of money
:43:57. > :43:59.into the community. I don't understand how taking away
:44:00. > :44:05.restrictions would make this issue any better. What would you do? Just
:44:06. > :44:09.a discussion with some of the colleagues on before, a lot of
:44:10. > :44:15.younger people, professionals wanting to buy and I was asking one
:44:16. > :44:21.of the colleagues, what kind of size of apartment would you be willing to
:44:22. > :44:24.buy? What was sufficient to get onto the housing ladder and she said she
:44:25. > :44:32.would go for something smaller but she said the restrictions are much
:44:33. > :44:36.more. There are minimum sizes. Is that the answer, something very
:44:37. > :44:38.small but gives you the sense of ownership, is about more important
:44:39. > :44:50.than space or size and renting? We are now in such dire straits that
:44:51. > :44:54.it is not about people wanting to own their own home but just people
:44:55. > :45:00.need somewhere to live and call home. Home does not mean you have to
:45:01. > :45:06.own it, it is a place that gives you security and a sense of belonging
:45:07. > :45:13.and gives you a sense of identity. A lot of people would happily rent as
:45:14. > :45:20.long as there was enough guidelines. I agree and I think rent
:45:21. > :45:25.accommodation should be similar. What we build is as important as how
:45:26. > :45:31.much. We all agree we need to build more. In 1970 we built almost
:45:32. > :45:35.400,000 homes and Bert down to less than 200,000 now which is crazy. But
:45:36. > :45:39.the culture has been to encourage people to increase their wealth,
:45:40. > :45:43.through property ownership. Is that there and should we treat property
:45:44. > :45:52.in the same way you might invest in... It is how we live rather than
:45:53. > :45:58.how we afford our pensions. And this is a chance we have with this. I
:45:59. > :46:03.think there's too much on ownership as a retirement savings vehicle. I
:46:04. > :46:08.think many owners, there is a focus on the idea on people wanting to
:46:09. > :46:10.make money from housing and ideological and that is why we are
:46:11. > :46:16.in this mess because people are making money from the housing
:46:17. > :46:23.crisis. So when I read what the government... Is that unethical?
:46:24. > :46:28.Profit and loss is absolutely necessary as a signal as to whether
:46:29. > :46:33.investment is efficient or inefficient and actually using more
:46:34. > :46:36.resources than it delivers. But London is being wrecked by the way
:46:37. > :46:42.private developers are forced to carry on the burden of those things
:46:43. > :46:47.the state has stepped back from. Love high-rises around Battersea and
:46:48. > :46:53.they're expected to play things that they should not. Add creates an area
:46:54. > :46:57.which in ten years will be one of the slums that we are going to
:46:58. > :47:00.regret. So at this point would you say Blunden should have the same
:47:01. > :47:04.attitude to foreign investment whether it is rich Chinese business
:47:05. > :47:09.people buying stuff in central London, should this city say no. The
:47:10. > :47:16.history of planning shows the unintended consequences follow from
:47:17. > :47:21.attempts to do things in a big way. We need to be careful what we do.
:47:22. > :47:27.Too often we go for the quick solution. With the areas of the UK
:47:28. > :47:31.boy slums have been demolished and rebuilt three times in one lifetime.
:47:32. > :47:37.The political timescale is just too fast to deal with this. I have been
:47:38. > :47:42.homeless myself with my family and to hear about housing being
:47:43. > :47:48.discussed in such market terms does not sit well with me. It is a basic
:47:49. > :47:54.human right. I am in contact with people who do not have places to
:47:55. > :47:58.live, teachers, TfL workers, people who make this city work and make the
:47:59. > :48:03.UK work and they do not have somewhere to live. So to discuss it
:48:04. > :48:09.in terms of market and economy, it just misses the point of the kind of
:48:10. > :48:15.issues we are seeing in the UK at the moment. That is the problem
:48:16. > :48:18.precisely, I'm with you and my headline is housing for everyone and
:48:19. > :48:24.more affordable housing. There are a number of policies which are
:48:25. > :48:33.intuitively sensible which prevent this. We should think outside the
:48:34. > :48:41.box and we need to think about economics. If we are thinking out of
:48:42. > :48:46.the box, what is the thing for housing, the driverless cars, if you
:48:47. > :48:52.like? Understanding what is going to be like in 30 or 40 years' time and
:48:53. > :48:59.building things that actually last rather than be discarded in 20
:49:00. > :49:04.years. And this discussion will be carried on life on Facebook. You can
:49:05. > :49:06.join us as soon as we come off air on the BBC Newsnight Facebook page.
:49:07. > :49:09.We leave you with one final take on housing,
:49:10. > :49:11.this one from 1962 and folk singer Pete Seeger.
:49:12. > :49:24.# They're all made out of ticky-tacky.
:49:25. > :49:31.# There's a green one and a pink one.
:49:32. > :49:35.# They're all made out of ticky-tacky.
:49:36. > :49:57.# They're all made out of ticky-tacky.
:49:58. > :50:11.Good evening to you. It is going to be turning colder over the next few
:50:12. > :50:12.days. Not everywhere,