:00:00. > :00:00.Five years ago, Sir Bernard Hogan Howe was appointed
:00:00. > :00:18.It's a very complex job policing London and people understand that.
:00:19. > :00:21.My job in leading the Met is to make sure we get crime down, we arrest
:00:22. > :00:23.criminals and that we support victims.
:00:24. > :00:26.He steps down this month, but is policing in London
:00:27. > :00:29.and the rest of the country in a happy and glorious state?
:00:30. > :00:31.Sir Bernard is with us for a farewell television interview.
:00:32. > :00:35.Also tonight, we hear from the parents of Trayvon Martin,
:00:36. > :00:38.the black 17 year-old killed by a white neighbourhood
:00:39. > :00:51.Equal rights, community, it is supposed to be that we are all the
:00:52. > :00:54.same and I just don't think with this administration so far with the
:00:55. > :00:57.things that they are doing they are proving that to be true.
:00:58. > :00:59.Do you have confidence in John Bercow, the Speaker
:01:00. > :01:02.That very question is being put to MPs.
:01:03. > :01:05.We'll hear the case for and against him.
:01:06. > :01:11.And how far should the authorities go to prevent poaching?
:01:12. > :01:17.Look at this, this is the village road and just over here is the
:01:18. > :01:21.National Park full of all of those wild animals. Berardo fences, no
:01:22. > :01:26.signs, and if I was to step across and into it there is a real danger
:01:27. > :01:30.that I could be shot. -- there are no fences.
:01:31. > :01:36.For the last five-and-a-half years, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe has been
:01:37. > :01:39.Metropolitan Police Commissioner and Britain's most senior policeman.
:01:40. > :01:44.Appointed just after the 2011 riots by then Home Secretary Theresa May,
:01:45. > :01:47.with the backing of then London Mayor Boris Johnson,
:01:48. > :01:50.his reign is coming to an end this month.
:01:51. > :01:53.In some ways he can look back on his years with satisfaction -
:01:54. > :01:56.crime has fallen and the Olympics passed off peacefully.
:01:57. > :01:58.But his is a job that is always embroiled in controversy,
:01:59. > :02:02.and there has been no shortage of that.
:02:03. > :02:05.Plebgate, the purchase of water cannon, Operation Elvedon, Operation
:02:06. > :02:11.And there has been a growing sense, expressed by Theresa May herself,
:02:12. > :02:13.that policing is not quite all it should be.
:02:14. > :02:20.We'll talk about the state of policing shortly,
:02:21. > :02:27.Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe was appointed as Met
:02:28. > :02:30.Commissioner in late 2011, a bad time for the police.
:02:31. > :02:33.A month before his appointment urban riots
:02:34. > :02:36.started across England in connection with a London police shooting.
:02:37. > :02:37.The political climate for the thin blue
:02:38. > :02:44.In the last few years we have seen the
:02:45. > :02:50.Leveson Inquiry, the appalling conclusions of the Hillsborough
:02:51. > :02:54.Independent Panel, the death of Ian Tomlinson
:02:55. > :02:56.and the sacking of PC Harwood, the ongoing inquiry...
:02:57. > :03:06.Running the Metropolitan Police is, of course, a
:03:07. > :03:08.phenomenally complicated job but one of Sir Bernard's biggest challenges
:03:09. > :03:16.is perhaps best understood by looking at the building behind me.
:03:17. > :03:19.This, this is the new New Scotland Yard and you might have noticed it's
:03:20. > :03:24.quite a lot smaller than the old one.
:03:25. > :03:29.The Met absorbed a 22% budget cut in the last Parliament, so how
:03:30. > :03:37.Well, I think you have to say that London is safer than
:03:38. > :03:40.it was in 2011 when Bernard Hogan-Howe came in in the sense that
:03:41. > :03:42.crime has continued to fall over that period.
:03:43. > :03:44.We certainly haven't seen a recurrence of the London
:03:45. > :03:47.riots which took place in 2011 just before he came in.
:03:48. > :03:53.incident, mass-casualty terrorist incident.
:03:54. > :03:55.So in that sense he has been successful.
:03:56. > :03:58.But obviously, you know, only part of that is down to
:03:59. > :04:01.what the police do and part of it is down to wider
:04:02. > :04:06.David Lammy, a London MP, has been conducting an official review into
:04:07. > :04:11.Well, he came in after the riots and the
:04:12. > :04:17.big issue was dealing with the increase in stop and search.
:04:18. > :04:20.And a huge crisis in confidence in both
:04:21. > :04:23.black and urban communities, but also young people.
:04:24. > :04:28.And I think he did step back from stop and search.
:04:29. > :04:46.We have seen more intelligence-led stop and search.
:04:47. > :04:50.It's still too high but it is a lot lower,
:04:51. > :04:52.and the noise is not as loud as it was.
:04:53. > :04:55.He also delivered a good Olympics and that was a big
:04:56. > :04:58.challenge at that time, would the Olympics be delivered
:04:59. > :05:01.Lots of Londoners, however, agree on some specific
:05:02. > :05:04.There's been a series of quite high profile
:05:05. > :05:05.and very costly probes into
:05:06. > :05:08.So, for example, child abuse and hacking.
:05:09. > :05:09.Which haven't turned out particularly well.
:05:10. > :05:12.I think there is a real issue in the Metropolitan Police around
:05:13. > :05:15.And I think finally there is perhaps the
:05:16. > :05:17.slightly dismissive attitude to the changing nature of crime,
:05:18. > :05:21.So recently I'm sure some of your viewers will have heard
:05:22. > :05:24.Sir Bernard made a joke about throwing laptops at crowds which I
:05:25. > :05:25.think is perhaps an unhelpful comment.
:05:26. > :05:27.Some of those failings contributed to a damning recent
:05:28. > :05:29.report on the Met and child protection.
:05:30. > :05:32.Far too many of the cases we looked at fell well short
:05:33. > :05:34.of expected standards and meant that victims weren't protected.
:05:35. > :05:36.Evidence was lost and offenders continued to
:05:37. > :05:39.The effect of those cuts have also been felt.
:05:40. > :05:41.The neighbourhood picture looks far different
:05:42. > :05:45.and not nearly as good as
:05:46. > :05:47.it was if you went back five, six years.
:05:48. > :05:51.The officers that you know in your local community, their names,
:05:52. > :05:54.their phone numbers, that neighbourhood levels picture, the
:05:55. > :05:57.anti-social behaviour in communities, particularly on some of
:05:58. > :05:59.our toughest housing estates, I think has got worse
:06:00. > :06:08.Good afternoon, I'm pleased to announce that Bernard Hogan-Howe
:06:09. > :06:10.has been appointed as the next Commissioner of the Metropolitan
:06:11. > :06:13.Looking back, though, Sir Bernard has done something very
:06:14. > :06:15.tough that neither of his two predecessors managed.
:06:16. > :06:18.Serve five years and then retire at a time of
:06:19. > :06:32.Chris Kirk the. Sir Bernard is with me, good evening. Good evening. --
:06:33. > :06:35.Chris Cooke. Theresa May was scathing about the police, I could
:06:36. > :06:38.read the quotes but essentially she said they hold the public in
:06:39. > :06:43.contempt and it's not just a few bad apples, it is a significant
:06:44. > :06:47.minority. Was she right at the time? We have experienced some challenges
:06:48. > :06:50.over the last few years and we have high standards and if we do not meet
:06:51. > :06:56.them we are disappointed but that was in 2014, here we are in 2017.
:06:57. > :07:01.Only two and a half years ago. Two and a half years is a long time. Has
:07:02. > :07:06.changed for the better now? I think so, nobody would argue it is perfect
:07:07. > :07:10.but it is true that police forces around the world look to us as a
:07:11. > :07:16.great example of good policing. But she was scathing. You've got to our
:07:17. > :07:19.knowledge, everybody must acknowledge, we police the streets
:07:20. > :07:22.of the city without a gun and the reason we do that is because we have
:07:23. > :07:25.the respect and support of the public which is vitally important
:07:26. > :07:31.and we should all recognise that. One of the points she made was that
:07:32. > :07:33.only four in ten black people trust the police if you ask them and she
:07:34. > :07:40.said that was an unsustainable position. Has not improved? It has
:07:41. > :07:45.during my tenure in London. I can point to two things which are
:07:46. > :07:47.powerful pieces of evidence that we're getting better. We are more
:07:48. > :07:51.representative of the London I see on the streets. If you look at the
:07:52. > :07:55.recruiting over the last 18 months one in three of our recruits are
:07:56. > :07:58.from minorities. What about the BBC? When was the last time you saw that
:07:59. > :08:04.many people who come from minorities who work here? I don't want to
:08:05. > :08:09.isolate that is one example of the establishment. Number two, which was
:08:10. > :08:12.in some of your report, we reduced stop and by 70%, when I took over we
:08:13. > :08:16.were stop searching 1.3 million people per year, that is too many.
:08:17. > :08:19.What we did in the next two and a half to three years, we reduced the
:08:20. > :08:23.number of stop and searches and increased the number of people
:08:24. > :08:27.arrested and at the same time crime came down. We can do it better by
:08:28. > :08:29.targeting the people who need stopping. Knife crime has started
:08:30. > :08:34.going up in the last three years, quite sharply. Not in the last few
:08:35. > :08:38.years but in the last year. Some of your staff think that is because of
:08:39. > :08:42.the delayed reaction of reducing stop and search. Is that plausible
:08:43. > :08:46.as an account as to why knife crime is rising? We're not sure, nobody
:08:47. > :08:50.can prove exactly what has happened but I think there are two reasons.
:08:51. > :08:53.As I took over I instigated a gang command, I thought there was a gang
:08:54. > :08:58.problem in London and I believe there was and still is. We targeted
:08:59. > :09:02.the gangs and put a lot of them away, we put in prison about 1500
:09:03. > :09:07.people. And of course they came out. The second thing is, there is no
:09:08. > :09:11.doubt it's possible we got to love with stop and search, 70% is a big
:09:12. > :09:15.change. Interestingly, at the same time in New York, they went from
:09:16. > :09:18.about 1 million stop and searches to about 23,000, they went through the
:09:19. > :09:22.floor and lost the support of the public. I don't think we did. The
:09:23. > :09:26.reason I changed stop and search is because of the reason I mentioned,
:09:27. > :09:31.we were doing too many, 1.3 million is and what in the city of 8.4
:09:32. > :09:34.million at the time. Every four weeks for the last five and a half
:09:35. > :09:37.years I've had a public meeting in a different part of London and a lot
:09:38. > :09:40.of black families were coming to the meetings and complaining about the
:09:41. > :09:44.level of stop and search. I'm still doing those meetings but don't get
:09:45. > :09:47.the same complaints in the same way and people were acknowledge we are
:09:48. > :09:50.improving. There is a lot of concern about the calibre and competence of
:09:51. > :10:03.the police. You will know there have been all sorts of
:10:04. > :10:07.episodes and he would expect there to be some. I'm interested in what
:10:08. > :10:10.you think went wrong in this Stephen Port case, this is a Cereal Killer
:10:11. > :10:13.Cafe four bodies, it took four bodies to be found outside or in the
:10:14. > :10:15.vicinity of his own flat. He had spoken to the police about these
:10:16. > :10:18.things and other people said there is a gay serial killer out there and
:10:19. > :10:21.the police said, no, these are unrelated deaths all in the same
:10:22. > :10:25.cemetery. I think people are perplexed at how that sort of thing
:10:26. > :10:30.can happen. What is your theory as to where it goes wrong? Is that
:10:31. > :10:36.institutionalised homophobia, people are a bit dim, because police
:10:37. > :10:41.stations are not joined up? It is easy to say the police are a bit
:10:42. > :10:45.dim. I'm just asking you. It is quite often a thing, we don't mind,
:10:46. > :10:49.call as dim as you like, we get on with our job but in these cases, I
:10:50. > :10:54.can't say too much because the IPCC are investigating and I hope you
:10:55. > :10:58.understand that. If you go into the wider point as to what mistakes are
:10:59. > :11:01.happening at times and why don't we spot things, on the whole they get
:11:02. > :11:06.it right. Of the murders we get in London, which are relatively rare,
:11:07. > :11:11.in my time in the last five years murders are about 103 per year and
:11:12. > :11:15.in the preceding five years 130 per year, the detecting rate is 95%. My
:11:16. > :11:19.point is we get it right on the whole. Occasionally we will not spot
:11:20. > :11:23.patterns I don't think we should leap to a conclusion before
:11:24. > :11:27.examining each case. It looks intuitively as if we should have
:11:28. > :11:32.spotted it earlier but surely we need to look at it seriously. Some
:11:33. > :11:37.of the management have been involved in deploying resources to things on
:11:38. > :11:40.a colossal scale. People say it's because you're just responding to
:11:41. > :11:45.the whims of the politicians. Operation Elveden is one that is
:11:46. > :11:49.cited, plebgate is a very interesting one because you actually
:11:50. > :11:54.accessed some journalist's phone records in order to find out who the
:11:55. > :12:01.source of a leak was to a journalist at The Sun. As you look back, do you
:12:02. > :12:05.think accessing phone records for a story as inconsequential as
:12:06. > :12:09.plebgate, I'm not saying it wasn't consequential for the players but it
:12:10. > :12:19.wasn't a murder, lives were not at risk, this was not a terrorist thing
:12:20. > :12:24.and you used the RIPA. Police had conspired to remove a cabinet
:12:25. > :12:29.minister, that was fairly minor, wasn't it? That was the issue being
:12:30. > :12:32.dealt with. You thought it was appropriate to access journalist's
:12:33. > :12:36.records to find the source of the story to see who leaked it. That was
:12:37. > :12:44.found to be legal, eventually in the civil courts it was found it was a
:12:45. > :12:48.breach, in terms of the PC he gave an inaccurate account as to what was
:12:49. > :12:51.said at the gate. Operation Elveden was mentioned by one of the people
:12:52. > :12:55.talking. They fused together three different things, they confuse
:12:56. > :12:58.hacking with Elveden, Operation Weeting was hacking, that was what
:12:59. > :13:03.journalists did. Elton was the payments to officials. All of that
:13:04. > :13:10.was in the case and they looked at hacking. Elveden, people who are
:13:11. > :13:14.watching this will not remember, was where journalists paid public
:13:15. > :13:19.servants for private information. They paid significant amounts, in
:13:20. > :13:23.one case ?50,000. Soldiers, police officers. The people who received
:13:24. > :13:26.that money were all convicted with one exception of bribery and went to
:13:27. > :13:31.prison. The journalist with one exception were not convicted, you
:13:32. > :13:34.can only reach one conclusion. The people receiving the bribe committed
:13:35. > :13:40.an offence but the people who gave it to them did not. I can't explain
:13:41. > :13:43.that. Let me make one final point because you repeat the argument,
:13:44. > :13:48.this was quite a minor thing. The only recently got involved in that
:13:49. > :13:54.was because two committees of Parliament and an public inquiry. I
:13:55. > :13:58.didn't set of the inquiry but surely I would have been arrogant to have
:13:59. > :14:06.ignored the serious issues and we did put officers into it for the two
:14:07. > :14:09.operations mentioned. The blagging by journalists of private
:14:10. > :14:13.information, remember Gordon Brown was said to have information about
:14:14. > :14:16.his child taken from a GP. That is a serious issue. Yes, we put resources
:14:17. > :14:23.into it, we didn't disrupt the rest of London. Let me ask you a final
:14:24. > :14:28.question, your successor, two women are in the running. Do you think it
:14:29. > :14:32.will make a difference to the ethos, the culture, the way the Met
:14:33. > :14:37.operates to have a woman as the very senior police person in the country?
:14:38. > :14:42.In my five and a half years half of the management board including
:14:43. > :14:46.police officers are women. We have already had some senior women in the
:14:47. > :14:49.highest level at the Met. I would make that simple point because
:14:50. > :14:53.people don't always know it. In terms of who they pick, if you ask
:14:54. > :14:58.me what to do, always pick talent. OK? Pick the right person for the
:14:59. > :15:00.job, never pick second-best on the grounds of their gender, their race
:15:01. > :15:06.or anything else. Always go for talent, you will have a good next
:15:07. > :15:09.5-7 years. If you compromise and go for second best, why would you quiz
:15:10. > :15:13.like you are in danger of letting yourself get into a future that will
:15:14. > :15:16.be a compromise and I would always advise never to do that. We have to
:15:17. > :15:20.leave it there, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, thank you.
:15:21. > :15:22.Back in 2012, a young black American was shot and killed
:15:23. > :15:24.while walking through a gated community in Florida.
:15:25. > :15:27.His name was Trayvon Martin, and his killer was George Zimmerman,
:15:28. > :15:28.a white neighbourhood watch volunteer.
:15:29. > :15:31.Trayvon, who was only 17, was not armed, and his death led
:15:32. > :15:35.George Zimmerman was acquitted of murder, claiming
:15:36. > :15:41.It was an extraordinary case that first prompted
:15:42. > :15:47.Well, five years on, the parents of Trayvon Martin have
:15:48. > :15:50.written a book on the case, and Mark Urban has been
:15:51. > :15:56.It was the case that, for many, summed up the dysfunction
:15:57. > :15:58.of America's gun laws and the depth of its racial divide.
:15:59. > :16:01.Trayvon Martin, 17, African-American, unarmed,
:16:02. > :16:04.was shot as he walked through the Florida gated community
:16:05. > :16:09.The acquittal of George Zimmerman, the head of the community's
:16:10. > :16:12.neighbourhood watch, who'd claimed self-defence,
:16:13. > :16:19.The verdict sparked nationwide protests,
:16:20. > :16:22.and at the forefront of those, always, Trayvon's parents,
:16:23. > :16:25.Tracy Martin and Sabrina Fulton, who've spoken out about gun violence
:16:26. > :16:35.I met them both, and began by asking Tracy how quickly his son's
:16:36. > :16:40.death became caught up in America's racial politics.
:16:41. > :16:44.It became a racial issue fairly quick.
:16:45. > :16:47.Just looking at a lot of things on social media,
:16:48. > :16:52.even before the arrest, and how people had their own
:16:53. > :16:56.perception and how people, the country started getting divided
:16:57. > :17:05.And what was amazing was the fact that through all of this,
:17:06. > :17:09.we had a dead 17-year-old on the ground, and then you had
:17:10. > :17:12.supporters of the killer of our son raising money for him,
:17:13. > :17:18.just because it was a young African-American man that had
:17:19. > :17:25.And so, it definitely took a racial...a racial turn that
:17:26. > :17:32.Sabrina, when you start your portion of the book -
:17:33. > :17:36.you alternate chapters together - there are a couple of quotes
:17:37. > :17:41.there from the Scriptures, and I'm wondering how belief can
:17:42. > :17:47.survive an experience like the one you went through.
:17:48. > :17:52.One of the things I learned when I was real young is that
:17:53. > :17:56.when it rains on the outside, it rains on everybody.
:17:57. > :18:00.It just doesn't rain on the bad people, or it just doesn't
:18:01. > :18:03.rain on the good people, it rains on everybody.
:18:04. > :18:08.And so we have to understand that, we may not understand why tragedy
:18:09. > :18:10.occurs in your life, but God has a different
:18:11. > :18:12.plan, and we might not understand those things.
:18:13. > :18:15.And so, I think that my strong faith in God and knowing that
:18:16. > :18:24.Trayvon is in heaven, it kind of gives me peace within.
:18:25. > :18:27.One of the things that happened in the aftermath was the emergence
:18:28. > :18:31.of the Black Lives Matter movement, wasn't it?
:18:32. > :18:42.It came to fruition after Trayvon's death, and that was attributed
:18:43. > :18:46.to African-Americans just being tired of being
:18:47. > :18:52.Black lives are the ones that are getting shot
:18:53. > :18:57.in the vehicles with your hands up, with your kid in the car,
:18:58. > :19:00.or getting choked out by the police, or getting shot at at a convenience
:19:01. > :19:03.store because you're playing your music too loud.
:19:04. > :19:08.These are the lives that are being taken.
:19:09. > :19:10.And so, the plea, the cry, is, listen, our lives
:19:11. > :19:17.matter just as much as any other nationality lives.
:19:18. > :19:22.And so, I think because of the acquittal, the injustices that
:19:23. > :19:31.You know, it was a spark, it was a new beginning
:19:32. > :19:41.How do you think you push it forward now?
:19:42. > :19:44.Because you're campaigning, and we see that even
:19:45. > :19:48.President Obama, with all the things that happened, from Trayvon,
:19:49. > :19:51.to Sandy Hook and all the other things, couldn't bring about a big
:19:52. > :19:54.change in the gun culture in this country, so how do you convince
:19:55. > :19:57.people that this is not a hopeless struggle, that there IS something
:19:58. > :20:04.I mean, our kids are our future, so we have to have some kind of hope.
:20:05. > :20:08.We can't just give up and say, OK, well, that's the way this country
:20:09. > :20:11.is, and we're just going to leave it the way that it is.
:20:12. > :20:17.We've got to do the best that we can and try to make positive change.
:20:18. > :20:19.Tracy - you, like the rest of us, are watching the TV
:20:20. > :20:22.over the past year - what do you make of
:20:23. > :20:25.the Trump phenomenon, the election of this president?
:20:26. > :20:31.Watching everything that's been going on over the past years,
:20:32. > :20:36.it amazes me that you can say or do just about anything you want
:20:37. > :20:41.to do and then become the leader of the free world.
:20:42. > :20:46.And that just goes to show the mindset of this country,
:20:47. > :20:50.the division in this country, and it doesn't speak to reality.
:20:51. > :20:54.Because this isn't supposed to be a dictatorship,
:20:55. > :20:57.this is supposed to be a...equal rights community, it's supposed
:20:58. > :21:05.And I just don't think with this administration so far,
:21:06. > :21:08.with the things that they're doing, they're proving that to be true.
:21:09. > :21:12.I think that we did take a few steps back.
:21:13. > :21:16.I think even though we came a long way, as far as race and guns
:21:17. > :21:21.and education and everything, I think right now, we have
:21:22. > :21:27.It's five years since Trayvon was shot - where do you think we'll
:21:28. > :21:35.Well, we're certainly looking at public office,
:21:36. > :21:40.we're looking at our local government, to see how...
:21:41. > :21:44.See which position that we'll be most beneficial to,
:21:45. > :21:47.and how we can bring about change in our communities, how we can bring
:21:48. > :21:50.about change in the states, and how we can bring about change
:21:51. > :21:55.We understand that in order to make change, you have to be
:21:56. > :22:04.And no position is too small to look into, because it IS the small
:22:05. > :22:18.These are the best of times and the worst of times for House
:22:19. > :22:25.Hailed by some as a hero for his stance on Donald Trump on Monday -
:22:26. > :22:28.remember he said he was against the new President addressing
:22:29. > :22:30.Parliament - he finds a motion of no-confidence has been put down
:22:31. > :22:37.Our political editor, Nick Watt, is with me.
:22:38. > :22:43.Before we talk about the Speaker, Labour reshuffle this afternoon,
:22:44. > :22:46.what do you make of it? Well, Trotsky was of course associated
:22:47. > :22:51.with the concept of permanent revolution, and Jeremy Corbyn now
:22:52. > :22:55.seems to be associated with the concept of the permanent reshuffle.
:22:56. > :23:00.Late this afternoon, he carried out his umpteenth reshuffle to fill the
:23:01. > :23:07.Cabinet places which had vacated by those who felt they had to leave
:23:08. > :23:11.because of Brexit. The position of shadow chief secretary is one to
:23:12. > :23:16.note. Jeremy Corbyn regards her as one of the rising stars of the 2015
:23:17. > :23:23.intake. Right, this motion of no confidence in the Speaker, is it
:23:24. > :23:26.going anywhere? Well, the former Africa minister has tabled this
:23:27. > :23:34.motion. He has done it in the form of an early day motion. David Davis
:23:35. > :23:40.once famously said that an EDM stands for extremely dangerous
:23:41. > :23:43.member, but there are MPs who say, 0 and this has been tabled in a way
:23:44. > :23:47.that means that it will have to be debated. There are other MPs who are
:23:48. > :23:53.saying, no, this is a bunch of Tory MPs who are doing the Government's
:23:54. > :23:56.bidding, they have never accepted John Bercow, they don't like the way
:23:57. > :24:00.he holds the Government to account and so they are pushing it this way.
:24:01. > :24:05.I think in government circles, they're saying that if this EDM were
:24:06. > :24:12.signed by about 30 MPs, or about 5%, it might have an impact. What I'm
:24:13. > :24:15.hearing from the Tory MPs who do support John Berkey is, they feel
:24:16. > :24:21.that he did cross a line when he effectively unilaterally vetoed a
:24:22. > :24:26.visit from Donald Trump to speak to Parliament, I am hearing a note of
:24:27. > :24:30.defiance firstly, they are saying, if MPs got rid of John Bercow, they
:24:31. > :24:33.would be telling the world that they are aligning themselves with Donald
:24:34. > :24:37.Trump. And the second thing I'm hearing is that he will abide by his
:24:38. > :24:42.commitment to serve nine years, which would end in June next year.
:24:43. > :24:46.But that might slip six months or so into early 2019.
:24:47. > :24:48.I'm now joined from Leeds by Alec Shelbrooke, a Conservative
:24:49. > :24:51.MP who says he will support the motion of no
:24:52. > :24:54.In Glasgow, we have the SNP's Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh,
:24:55. > :25:08.Good evening to you. Alec Shelbrooke, what is wrong with him?
:25:09. > :25:12.We feel that it was very unfortunate for the Speaker to involve himself
:25:13. > :25:17.in a political debate. I want to get it absolutely clear, I do not
:25:18. > :25:21.support all the policies of Donald Trump, I certainly do not like his
:25:22. > :25:25.attitude and reported comments and alleged assaults towards women, I
:25:26. > :25:31.want to get that on the record. However I think the Speaker must
:25:32. > :25:36.stay above the political argument. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh and myself will
:25:37. > :25:39.have a political debate in a moment. That is the debate of politicians,
:25:40. > :25:42.the Speaker should remain independent of those debates.
:25:43. > :25:46.Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, do you agree that it is about whether or not the
:25:47. > :25:52.Speaker should express an opinion on Donald Trump, which is the debate?
:25:53. > :25:56.First of all, he was speaking in response to a point of order made in
:25:57. > :26:01.relation to the president. I think in response to early day motions, in
:26:02. > :26:05.fact, the most popular EDM signed since the start of the year is the
:26:06. > :26:10.one which supports the position of the Speaker. I believe he was
:26:11. > :26:14.perfectly within his right to give his opinion. I cannot help but think
:26:15. > :26:18.there is an alternative agenda at play here. Increasingly we are
:26:19. > :26:23.seeing in the House of Commons this kind of playground politics,
:26:24. > :26:28.bullyboys tactics and wanting a Speaker to be politicised as they
:26:29. > :26:32.want to replace him with someone of the opposite view. We are kind of
:26:33. > :26:36.fed up of this in the chamber. I do not agree with the Speaker on
:26:37. > :26:40.everything, but certainly we can say we have a Speaker who is
:26:41. > :26:45.pro-equality, he deals with men and women in equal measure, he will try
:26:46. > :26:50.and take points of order from us when we have protests to make about
:26:51. > :26:56.things which are being done in the chamber, and also he shows a quality
:26:57. > :26:59.towards disabled people and people of ethnic minorities. So this is a
:27:00. > :27:03.modernising Speaker. It has been said recently that some people have
:27:04. > :27:08.an objection to a modernising Speaker, well, I think we have to go
:27:09. > :27:12.into the 21st century, and get away from what seems to be a Hogwarts
:27:13. > :27:18.type of debating society. Can you come back on that, Alec Shelbrooke?
:27:19. > :27:24.As I say, I think it is important that the Speaker does not give a
:27:25. > :27:27.political view. As a Speaker, do you think he's a good Speaker, apart
:27:28. > :27:34.from that one transgression which you believe he made? Well, there are
:27:35. > :27:39.many positives to the Speaker. As I understand it, when there were
:27:40. > :27:43.statements and urgent questions in the past, not every backbencher was
:27:44. > :27:48.entitled to get in, and he does certainly do that. But he has let
:27:49. > :27:53.himself down in other areas, by appearing not to be independent of
:27:54. > :27:58.what is a hypothetical question, given that an application has not
:27:59. > :28:02.been made. I do think that he does some good things when he takes the
:28:03. > :28:05.points of order, and I support Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh when she made
:28:06. > :28:09.the point of order about the language which was used. I was in
:28:10. > :28:14.for the point of order but I did not actually hear the actual thing
:28:15. > :28:18.itself. Let's not get away from the fact that the Speaker renounces a
:28:19. > :28:21.political party when he becomes Speaker and is supposed to be
:28:22. > :28:25.respected and trusted on both sides of the house, so that he can
:28:26. > :28:29.independently chaired debates. This was a step over the line which has
:28:30. > :28:32.called into question his independence the Government Tasmina
:28:33. > :28:36.Ahmed-Sheikh, talk is true this Nicholas Soames incident, so, you
:28:37. > :28:42.were talking in the House and you heard him making barking noises in
:28:43. > :28:46.the background, which you then reported, you asked John Bercow to
:28:47. > :28:51.rule on that, and did he deal with it well? Yes. I made him aware that
:28:52. > :28:54.I wanted to make a point of order in relation to this behaviour, and I
:28:55. > :28:58.afforded Nicholas Soames the courtesy but she does not afford me
:28:59. > :29:02.in the chamber by passing him a note to let him know that he could be in
:29:03. > :29:05.the chamber to defend himself if he wanted to. The Speaker brought the
:29:06. > :29:10.issue to the forefront and Nicholas Soames said, if I was offended, he
:29:11. > :29:13.was sorry. Quite why I would not be offended by somebody making barking
:29:14. > :29:18.noises is beyond my comprehension. And the Speaker said that that would
:29:19. > :29:22.be the matter, for now. It's demonstrated that he was not
:29:23. > :29:28.prepared to put up with any kind of sexism in the chamber. I do not
:29:29. > :29:34.accept suggestions that the Speaker is criticising... He was responding
:29:35. > :29:39.to a point of order. Let's think about who has addressed Westminster
:29:40. > :29:43.Hall in the past. President Barack Obama, Pope, Nelson Mandela. For
:29:44. > :29:47.there to be a suggestion that at any point, certainly not now, president
:29:48. > :29:52.dump in any way represented a leader who should be afforded that honour,
:29:53. > :29:55.certainly it does not sit well with me and many colleagues across the
:29:56. > :29:59.House. Alec Shelbrooke, I know you want to come back on that, but I
:30:00. > :30:03.want to ask you, is this going anywhere? It seems that this will
:30:04. > :30:07.not be a time for the House of Commons to have a big fight over the
:30:08. > :30:11.Speaker, when there is a lot going on in the world. What would you
:30:12. > :30:16.count as a successful number of signatories to your motion? I do not
:30:17. > :30:24.want to put a number on it. I think it is interesting to see how people
:30:25. > :30:28.feel. There are certainly talk in the lobbies of people who felt that
:30:29. > :30:33.this had gone too far. I accept many of the things that Tasmina has said
:30:34. > :30:40.about the way the Speaker handles points of order etc. But the point
:30:41. > :30:45.is, you cannot politicised the office of Speaker, and it is a
:30:46. > :30:48.political point which was made. I'm sure we will have much common ground
:30:49. > :30:50.if we debate the rights and wrongs of Donald Trump.
:30:51. > :30:51.# You'll know this is our column spot
:30:52. > :30:57.- two minutes for a guest Tonight, the turn of
:30:58. > :31:01.journalist Nabila Ramdani. In an age of Brexit
:31:02. > :31:12.and Trump plenty of people are predicting that
:31:13. > :31:15.Marine Le Pen will become They present her as a breath
:31:16. > :31:21.of fresh air, another straight-talking populist
:31:22. > :31:24.who will return power to the people I've grown up listening
:31:25. > :31:27.to Le Pen's poisonous discourse and I'm not prepared
:31:28. > :31:30.to swallow the PR spin. Banding Brexit, Trump
:31:31. > :31:32.and Le Pen together is I predicted a Trump
:31:33. > :31:36.win because he had In contrast, Le Pen's power base
:31:37. > :31:45.is in small town councils. If anything she's more
:31:46. > :31:49.like Hillary Clinton. She's been knocking around
:31:50. > :31:50.for decades and owes Beyond the media myth,
:31:51. > :31:58.let's consider these hard facts. Marine Le Pen can't win
:31:59. > :32:00.a parliamentary seat Her party, the Front National,
:32:01. > :32:06.currently has two MPs. She's not an outsider
:32:07. > :32:15.but an immensely wealthy The truth is, the FN
:32:16. > :32:19.is a protest party. It often does well in first rounds
:32:20. > :33:30.and then collapses in the Nabila Ramdani's views night. I hope
:33:31. > :33:32.you saw the nationwide logo pop up in the middle of that.
:33:33. > :33:34.And we'll be bringing you other perspectives
:33:35. > :33:38.There is an existential struggle that plays out in various
:33:39. > :33:40.impoverished parts of the world between endangered species
:33:41. > :33:48.Most of us, I suspect, are on the side of the animals,
:33:49. > :33:50.believing that other work should be found for the people.
:33:51. > :33:52.But how far should we go to stop poaching?
:33:53. > :33:54.It's a question raised in India at the moment,
:33:55. > :33:57.where one of the great national parks is taking an extreme approach
:33:58. > :34:01.When I say extreme, dozens of people have been killed and maimed,
:34:02. > :34:04.and there are even allegations of villagers being tortured.
:34:05. > :34:05.The international conservation charities that work
:34:06. > :34:13.The BBC's South Asia correspondent Justin Rowlatt reports.
:34:14. > :34:24.Kaziranga is a triumph of wildlife conservation.
:34:25. > :34:26.There were just a handful of Indian rhinos here a
:34:27. > :34:30.Now there are more than 2400, two thirds of the world
:34:31. > :34:36.Wills and Kate paid a visit on their Indian tour.
:34:37. > :34:37.The local people say they're paying a
:34:38. > :34:48.July last year and a seven-year-old boy is rushed to hospital.
:34:49. > :34:58.TRANSLATION: The forest gods were shouting
:34:59. > :35:05.Then the forest gods suddenly shot me.
:35:06. > :35:10.What is the condition of the wound now?
:35:11. > :35:12.Akash's father explains how the hospital tried to graft muscle
:35:13. > :35:27.Akash will never walk properly again.
:35:28. > :35:29.The park says it was a terrible mistake and paid his
:35:30. > :35:34.medical bills and $3000 compensation.
:35:35. > :35:36.There was an outcry with hundreds protesting at the
:35:37. > :35:42.mounting toll of death and injury in the park.
:35:43. > :35:48.The issue is the park's ruthless anti-poaching strategy.
:35:49. > :36:00.Oh, yes, there's a rhino just next to us.
:36:01. > :36:04.Park rangers have been given extraordinary powers to protect
:36:05. > :36:08.Whenever you see the poachers or any people during
:36:09. > :36:12.night time we are ordered to shoot them.
:36:13. > :36:15.The park says the right to shoot and kill is essential to
:36:16. > :36:23.At first we have to warn them who are you.
:36:24. > :36:25.If they resort to firing then we have to
:36:26. > :36:31.First we try to arrest them so that we get the information,
:36:32. > :36:35.what is their linkages, who are others in the gang.
:36:36. > :36:37.He says the scale of the poaching menace
:36:38. > :36:41.justifies an uncompromising approach.
:36:42. > :36:48.But 50 people have been killed in the past three years alone.
:36:49. > :36:51.In 2015 more people were shot dead in the park than rhinos.
:36:52. > :36:59.And in the communities around Kaziranga there is growing disquiet.
:37:00. > :37:06.This is one of many tribal groups that have
:37:07. > :37:08.lived in or alongside the forest for centuries.
:37:09. > :37:12.So look at this, this is the village road and
:37:13. > :37:15.just over here is the National Park full of all those wild animals.
:37:16. > :37:19.There are no fences, no signs, and if I was to step
:37:20. > :37:27.across and into it there is a real danger that I could be shot.
:37:28. > :37:32.His parents believe their son, who had severe learning
:37:33. > :37:35.difficulties, was looking for a missing cow when he mistakenly
:37:36. > :37:38.crossed into the park in December 2013.
:37:39. > :37:40.TRANSLATION: My son was shot in the chest by park rangers.
:37:41. > :37:46.I don't know whether they used an axe or
:37:47. > :37:55.The park says guards fired when he did not respond to
:37:56. > :37:59.TRANSLATION: I haven't filed a court case.
:38:00. > :38:06.I don't know anything about how the law works.
:38:07. > :38:21.These guards are preparing an ambush.
:38:22. > :38:23.Kaziranga explains the high death toll saying poachers die in
:38:24. > :38:28.Now, firm figures are hard to come by but according to
:38:29. > :38:31.the reports we can find just one park guard has been killed by
:38:32. > :38:39.Compare that to be more than 100 people shot dead by guards
:38:40. > :38:42.The park is being run with utmost brutality.
:38:43. > :38:49.There's no jury, no judge, there's no
:38:50. > :38:52.questioning and the terrifying thing is that there are plans to roll out
:38:53. > :38:55.this shoot on sight policy across the whole of India.
:38:56. > :38:58.She says some of the world's biggest animal
:38:59. > :39:00.conservation charities are turning a blind eye, including the World
:39:01. > :39:07.It has funded combat and ambush training for Kaziranga's
:39:08. > :39:09.guards and provided specialist equipment, including
:39:10. > :39:16.Well, you know, the thing is, killing people, nobody is
:39:17. > :39:21.comfortable with killing people, right.
:39:22. > :39:24.What is needed is on ground protection.
:39:25. > :39:27.This trade has to stop if the poaching has to stop.
:39:28. > :39:32.Yes, so that has to stop if poaching has to stop.
:39:33. > :39:37.What do you think your donors would feel about
:39:38. > :39:48.WWF's involvement with a park which is involved in killing dozens
:39:49. > :39:50.and dozens of people, with maiming people.
:39:51. > :39:54.We want the whole thing is to reduce.
:39:55. > :39:57.We don't want poaching to happen and the idea is to reduce
:39:58. > :39:59.It's not just the Kaziranga authorities
:40:00. > :40:01.but also the enforcement agencies, also the local people.
:40:02. > :40:04.So I think the main thing is to work with the
:40:05. > :40:07.But it isn't only Kaziranga's anti-poaching strategy
:40:08. > :40:12.The park plans to double in size and an
:40:13. > :40:20.The first villages were cleared in September.
:40:21. > :40:32.The police respond, first with tear gas,
:40:33. > :40:59.My husband was the only person I had.
:41:00. > :41:02.I wanted to take his body away but they beat me up
:41:03. > :41:10.and didn't allow me to take his body so I had to run away.
:41:11. > :41:18.Diggers were brought in to destroy buildings.
:41:19. > :41:22.And the National Park provided a team of
:41:23. > :41:24.elephants that slowly and deliberately went through the
:41:25. > :41:40.Critics see the wrecked village as yet more evidence of an overly
:41:41. > :41:44.Of course, endangered species need preserving but is Kaziranga's
:41:45. > :41:52.strategy placing the welfare of wildlife too far above the welfare
:41:53. > :42:02.of the people we are told are best placed to protect it?
:42:03. > :42:10.Justin Rowlatt. If you want to see a longer version of that.
:42:11. > :42:13.Our World: Killing For Conservation is on the BBC News Channel at 9:30pm
:42:14. > :42:16.It will be available to watch later via BBC iPlayer
:42:17. > :42:23.If you Mr Trump news today, we haven't had that really, the latest
:42:24. > :42:28.that just broke is the US appeals court has upheld the suspension of
:42:29. > :42:31.the travel ban. The ban is still suspended. Otherwise that is all we
:42:32. > :42:41.have time for. MLE will be here tomorrow. Good night.
:42:42. > :42:48.Hello. It looks as though our cold theme continues for the rest of the
:42:49. > :42:54.week and there will continue to be showers as well coming in off the
:42:55. > :42:57.North Sea. Showers of rain primarily but further inland with a little bit
:42:58. > :43:01.of height there will be some snow. The best of the sunshine on Friday
:43:02. > :43:02.looks like it has been through Northern Ireland and bulk of
:43:03. > :43:03.Scotland,