:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight, a Newsnight exclusive with the man who could send
:00:07. > :00:11.Some people say that you are a bit of a fascist.
:00:12. > :00:24.Geert Wilders leads the polls in The Netherlands -
:00:25. > :00:30.Could a win for Wilders embolden populists throughout Europe?
:00:31. > :00:35.We ask our guests if Liberal Democracy is in permanent decline.
:00:36. > :00:38.After five years and over ?30 million, the government calls
:00:39. > :00:43.Not a single prosecution of military personnel was secured,
:00:44. > :00:50.They told us it was all going to be fine...
:00:51. > :00:53.Do you seriously suppose that they are going to be so insane as to
:00:54. > :00:58.allow tariffs to be imposed between Britain and Germany?
:00:59. > :01:11.So are German car manufacturers as relaxed about Brexit as he was?
:01:12. > :01:14.Populist parties are growing in strength across Europe,
:01:15. > :01:18.There's Marine le Pen and the National Front
:01:19. > :01:22.But there's a critical election before that -
:01:23. > :01:26.Geert Wilders, who leads the anti-Muslim Freedom Party
:01:27. > :01:32.He wants to take them out of the EU, and to "de-Islamise the Netherlands"
:01:33. > :01:37.with a ban on immigration from Muslim countries.
:01:38. > :01:39.In 2016 he was convicted of inciting discrimination.
:01:40. > :01:41.The Dutch coalition system means it's unlikely Wilders will be
:01:42. > :01:48.But he could end up leading the largest party which would chill
:01:49. > :01:49.European centrists and boost other populist movements
:01:50. > :02:05.We sent our bear in a duffle coat, John Sweeney, in pursuit.
:02:06. > :02:08.This is the election campaign video of the Far Right
:02:09. > :02:14.Unsurprisingly, they believe in freedom,
:02:15. > :02:30.On Brexit, they say the British did it and the Americans did it too.
:02:31. > :02:36.Here is the party's leader and sole member, Geert Wilders.
:02:37. > :02:39.Borrowed perhaps from Dad's Army, suggests that by the end
:02:40. > :02:42.of the century there will be 4 billion Africans and many will
:02:43. > :02:47.Wilders links refugees, especially Muslim ones,
:02:48. > :03:03."Go and vote" he concludes, "and make the Netherlands ours again".
:03:04. > :03:06.Wilders is a hard man to track down, but if you go down to the Dutch
:03:07. > :03:15.parliament, you might be in for a big surprise.
:03:16. > :03:23.The great man is going to come down those stairs, through here,
:03:24. > :03:26.into the chamber and that is our one chance to have an natter with him.
:03:27. > :03:30.into the chamber and that is our one chance to have a natter with him.
:03:31. > :03:36.Are you going to do to Holland what Mr Trump is doing to America?
:03:37. > :03:46.I am not Mr Trump, I am my own man, in my own party, in my own country.
:03:47. > :03:49.But indeed, there is what I call a patriotic spring going on.
:03:50. > :03:52.We saw the beginning of it with Brexit, that even though
:03:53. > :03:55.the political elite was making sure the people were afraid to vote
:03:56. > :03:57.in favour of leaving the European Union, the people
:03:58. > :04:06.We saw in the United States that despite all the rhetoric
:04:07. > :04:09.of the elite, Mr Trump won the election.
:04:10. > :04:12.I hope I can repeat the same thing, because once again the people
:04:13. > :04:18.It's not only America first, it's also Holland first, and that's
:04:19. > :04:22.Some people say you are a bit of a fascist though?
:04:23. > :04:33.Some of them, but it is totally untrue.
:04:34. > :04:36.Wilders' hostility to Islam has led to death threats, so he is guarded
:04:37. > :04:46.But his message strikes a chord here.
:04:47. > :04:52.Around one in five Dutch voters are expected to plump
:04:53. > :04:54.for the Freedom Party on March the 15th.
:04:55. > :05:04.In The Hague, I hit the pedals to find out why.
:05:05. > :05:09.The Valentine's Day tat was out, but love was in short supply.
:05:10. > :05:11.Geert Wilders, you going to vote for him?
:05:12. > :05:21.Because I am fed up with all this mumbo jumbo talking
:05:22. > :05:26.They say, look what we have done, what we have done.
:05:27. > :05:29.There's a lot of people who have another mind to get out.
:05:30. > :05:32.When I was young, Holland was the most open and tolerant society.
:05:33. > :05:39.Because we are a small country and there's an explosion
:05:40. > :05:45.of people, too many children, too many people...
:05:46. > :05:48.They have to help them, but it's full, we are fall.
:05:49. > :05:51.They have to help them, but it's full, we are full.
:05:52. > :05:56.He is looking what the people are angry about and is saying
:05:57. > :05:59.Because he is saying things like all people have
:06:00. > :06:05.He is saying something, but he's not going to do it
:06:06. > :06:08.because the only thing he's doing is talking bad about
:06:09. > :06:10.the Muslims and then give them the blame for everything.
:06:11. > :06:12.But most people don't trust other politics,
:06:13. > :06:17.so they want to trust him to see what he's going to do.
:06:18. > :06:23.Wilders must have liked my robust approach, because I get a phone call
:06:24. > :06:32.Geert Wilders, when did you last go for a walk on your own?
:06:33. > :06:41.Well, that's something like 12, 13 years ago.
:06:42. > :06:47.All on my own, drive a car, go and do some shopping,
:06:48. > :06:50.empty my own mailbox at home, being at my own home is more than 12
:06:51. > :06:58.I am on a death list from Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, many of that
:06:59. > :07:05.What's the biggest cause by terror of a loss of Dutch lives
:07:06. > :07:16.Well, we were lucky to not have the kind of attacks
:07:17. > :07:18.for instance Germany, Belgium, France and even
:07:19. > :07:20.the United Kingdom with the London attacks had.
:07:21. > :07:34.They are entirely innocent in a civilian airliner,
:07:35. > :07:36.shot down and the prime suspects is Putin's Russia?
:07:37. > :07:46.I am sure it has to be cleared, I would not bet Russia had
:07:47. > :07:48.nothing to do with that, but still let's wait
:07:49. > :08:04.I could be right, the Russians say it's the Ukrainians.
:08:05. > :08:07.Either way, 193 people died, they're Dutch and it has got nothing
:08:08. > :08:12.So why aren't you concerned about that as well because there
:08:13. > :08:14.are other dangers in the world out there, North Korea,
:08:15. > :08:19.Putin's Russia and there is Islamists extremists,
:08:20. > :08:22.Islamist fascists, so aren't you a bit obsessed with just one
:08:23. > :08:25.element of the spectrum here, which is the Muslim spectrum,
:08:26. > :08:35.while ignoring perhaps, Russian fascists?
:08:36. > :08:39.The more that we import Islam, I'm not talking about all the people,
:08:40. > :08:41.I'm not saying once again that all the people are extremist
:08:42. > :08:43.people, but the ideology and freedom are incompatible.
:08:44. > :08:50.So we are facing an existential problem here.
:08:51. > :08:53.If we allow to open our borders, if we allowe to ignore the problems
:08:54. > :08:56.that we are facing today, let alone later in the century
:08:57. > :08:57.with the demographic situation in Africa,
:08:58. > :09:00.Our values, our identity will not be taken away
:09:01. > :09:05.by the European Union, only but by the Islamistation
:09:06. > :09:20.So Trump has pushed America first, you have the Netherlands first,
:09:21. > :09:21.America first, Germany first, Russia first, don't
:09:22. > :09:35.I think that is a fear some politicians put into our heads,
:09:36. > :09:38.but they forget telling us that we made a kind of other
:09:39. > :09:42.totalitarian organisation dominance, which is called the European Union.
:09:43. > :09:51.You speak your mind in China and in Russia,
:09:52. > :09:55.you may end up dead, not in Brussels...
:09:56. > :09:58.I am not saying it is totalitarian to all the citizens
:09:59. > :10:01.of the European Union, but is totalitarian
:10:02. > :10:05.You believe in the politics of identity, don't you?
:10:06. > :10:15.I suppose the people who believe in liberal democracy,
:10:16. > :10:19.the idea that everybody is equal under the law, it is a different way
:10:20. > :10:23.People are equal, ideologies, values are not equal.
:10:24. > :10:37.What I told you before, the cultural relativist,
:10:38. > :10:41.people who believe all cultures are equal are the proof
:10:42. > :10:43.of the biggest disease Europe faced in the last decade.
:10:44. > :10:45.Cultural relativists who say the Islamic culture
:10:46. > :10:48.is the same as Christianity, and allow them and don't demand from
:10:49. > :10:55.This is the worst thing that has happened to us.
:10:56. > :11:02.Many Dutch find his views not just repellents, but dangerous.
:11:03. > :11:04.So will Geert Wilders take power on March the 15th?
:11:05. > :11:07.Probably not, as the mainstream parties will do their
:11:08. > :11:12.But there's no doubting this man is changing what was once the most
:11:13. > :11:18.liberal country in Europe into something quite different.
:11:19. > :11:21.So is the talk of populist revolution in Europe overblown?
:11:22. > :11:26.Or are we mad to ignore the warning signals?
:11:27. > :11:28.At the moment Geert Wilders is leading the opinion polls
:11:29. > :11:31.in the Netherlands with 19% of the vote, three points ahead
:11:32. > :11:36.And in France, Le Pen is also expected to be ahead in the first
:11:37. > :11:38.round of the Presidential election, on 26%.
:11:39. > :11:44.So do these parties really have a chance of winning power?
:11:45. > :11:47.And critically, what is their presence doing
:11:48. > :11:56.Joining me now, Times Columnist David Aronovitch, Sara Hobolt,
:11:57. > :11:58.professor of European politics at LSE and Yascha Mount,
:11:59. > :12:08.Very nice to have you here. I want to put this in context, we have
:12:09. > :12:14.played around with some of the numbers from the polls, but how
:12:15. > :12:18.close to power do you believe Geert Wilders is right now? It depends on
:12:19. > :12:22.what you mean by power? He is close to being the largest party in the
:12:23. > :12:27.Netherlands, but that does not mean he will win a majority, but it does
:12:28. > :12:31.mean he will be a power to be reckoned with when it comes to
:12:32. > :12:36.coalition formation. He cannot be Prime Minister, as it were, on his
:12:37. > :12:40.own? No party in the Netherlands will win a majority, there will have
:12:41. > :12:45.to be a coalition. It might be he is the first person to be asked form
:12:46. > :12:50.back coalition. The other parties have said we do not want to go into
:12:51. > :12:53.government with you. It doesn't roll out there could be another
:12:54. > :12:58.centre-right minority government where he is the main supporting
:12:59. > :13:02.party. We have seen that before between 2010 and 2012 in the
:13:03. > :13:07.Netherlands where his party was providing the Parliamentary support
:13:08. > :13:13.and gaining concessions like that. David, you said nothing to worry
:13:14. > :13:18.about? My concern is a different one. And that is we have managed to
:13:19. > :13:22.paint what has happened and what is happening in Europe, Britain and to
:13:23. > :13:29.some extent in America as well, as the revolt of the majority. We talk
:13:30. > :13:38.about it as if what you have is akin to a revolutionary situation with
:13:39. > :13:42.the masses coming down the street... Because we call it populism. But
:13:43. > :13:47.when you look at the continuing demographics of the people who are
:13:48. > :13:52.supporting these parties, they tend to be declining demographics. They
:13:53. > :13:56.are older, they tend to have jobs in industries that are declining and so
:13:57. > :14:00.on. That is the first point. That doesn't mean you should not worry
:14:01. > :14:03.about it, but you should worry about it for the reasons I suspect my
:14:04. > :14:14.colleagues will say you should worry about it, and that is the influence
:14:15. > :14:17.they can have on other parties. I cannot rule out the possibility that
:14:18. > :14:19.Marine Le Pen will win, but they are pretty much blocked out at about
:14:20. > :14:23.25%. In some places we get very uptight about that, like in Germany.
:14:24. > :14:27.We are talking about a party that never gets above 12% in the polls.
:14:28. > :14:31.That will give them representation, but it will give them any more
:14:32. > :14:37.representation than the left party had in the last election, and we
:14:38. > :14:40.never even noticed it. They might be influencing of the mainstream
:14:41. > :14:45.parties, but be in themselves are not a threat, do you buy that? We
:14:46. > :14:59.see that reflected in European politics. I worry about them being
:15:00. > :15:02.able to win majorities. Everybody said Brexit would that happen, but
:15:03. > :15:05.it did. Everybody said Donald Trump could not be elected, but he did. In
:15:06. > :15:07.countries like Sweden and Germany, five or ten years ago we had no
:15:08. > :15:16.populist parties strong in the system. Now the third biggest party
:15:17. > :15:21.in the polls. You see they do represent the majority of the
:15:22. > :15:24.population on many questions. For example, most Europeans in every
:15:25. > :15:28.country that was polled a couple of days ago, believed we should have no
:15:29. > :15:36.further immigration from the Muslim majority countries whatsoever. Are
:15:37. > :15:40.we crazy to miss those signals? I understand what he's saying, but
:15:41. > :15:44.there is a danger in saying we got it badly wrong over Brexit, we were
:15:45. > :15:49.bruised over Brexit, bruised over Donald Trump. In order not to get
:15:50. > :15:54.bruised again, we will talk up these other parties. One of the problems I
:15:55. > :15:58.have is, we had a good interview with Geert Wilders. Yesterday the
:15:59. > :16:03.today programme we had an interview with Marine Le Pen. I bet some of
:16:04. > :16:08.the British population cannot name any other politician in France apart
:16:09. > :16:13.from Francois Hollande and especially in Holland. The Prime
:16:14. > :16:17.Minister's party might lead Geert Wilders in the party. This party of
:16:18. > :16:23.Geert Wilders was at this place in the polls in 2013. Do you think the
:16:24. > :16:30.polls do relate to the coverage these politicians are getting?
:16:31. > :16:36.I do not believe that Brexit is protected by Eddie one, this was a
:16:37. > :16:41.close race. Everybody knew that it was close, it is not to say that
:16:42. > :16:47.nobody knew this was in the balance but in terms of getting coverage,
:16:48. > :16:50.what we are seeing after the financial crisis is there has always
:16:51. > :16:55.been populist parties on the right but there has been a step change in
:16:56. > :17:00.just how popular they are and we're not talking about pluralities but no
:17:01. > :17:03.party will win an outright majority and been influential, in terms of
:17:04. > :17:08.setting the agenda and the agenda has shifted in European politics
:17:09. > :17:15.towards anti-immigration and Euro scepticism but also inside. Our
:17:16. > :17:18.liberal democracies in Europe actually in permanent decline? There
:17:19. > :17:24.was a time when that question seemed unthinkable and it not seem long
:17:25. > :17:27.ago. Do you think so? For a long time people believed that once
:17:28. > :17:34.relatively wealthy, you have had changes of government, democracy is
:17:35. > :17:38.safe, the only game in town. I looked at this question. What does
:17:39. > :17:44.it mean for democracy to be the only game in town? It means most citizens
:17:45. > :17:47.give great importance to living in democracy, and they don't foot for
:17:48. > :17:54.people who criticise democracy in a deep way. What that survey shows
:17:55. > :17:58.that that is not true, in Western Europe and North America. The number
:17:59. > :18:04.of people who say, democracy, take it or leave it, has gone up very
:18:05. > :18:12.rapidly... And these are young people. How does that tight end but
:18:13. > :18:18.the idea that people are in decline who vote for these radical parties?
:18:19. > :18:22.And from what to watch? One of the key sets of social attitudes in this
:18:23. > :18:27.country is measurable by, would you mind if your child married somebody
:18:28. > :18:34.of another race? For years and years you would see a majority in this
:18:35. > :18:39.country would say no to that. And a majority now say they are not
:18:40. > :18:43.bothered and it is not because old people change their minds, it is
:18:44. > :18:51.because younger people never lost that attitude. Does this go back to
:18:52. > :18:54.the question asked Wilders, that nationalism has become so much in
:18:55. > :18:57.the body because for years people lived with the idea of a sovereign
:18:58. > :19:04.nation state and we then start talking in these bodies? That,
:19:05. > :19:10.again, is a generational question. In a lot of countries. And by and
:19:11. > :19:15.large again, younger people do tend to see themselves as more
:19:16. > :19:20.interdependent. Hardly surprising. I think that younger people are much
:19:21. > :19:26.more polarised so more young people are very used to multiethnic
:19:27. > :19:29.democracies and interacting with people from different origins but
:19:30. > :19:36.also young people who fervently reject that so if you look at France
:19:37. > :19:43.from Marine Le Pen's party and the support for Deutschland, among young
:19:44. > :19:48.people they are strong and this is a matter of a long-term transition but
:19:49. > :19:52.many European democracies where divided as monocultural countries
:19:53. > :19:57.and they have had become multiethnic because of immigration and so on. A
:19:58. > :20:02.big proportion of the population has made their peace with that and
:20:03. > :20:06.celebrates that but there is also a big proportion of the population
:20:07. > :20:09.that says no, what it means to be Dutch as you are descended from
:20:10. > :20:13.Dutch people and everything else does not quite so the big question
:20:14. > :20:17.the next 30 years is whether we can get people to broaden their sense of
:20:18. > :20:22.identity and there is no historical precedent that this can be done.
:20:23. > :20:25.Does it feel like this is still a protest voice or is there something
:20:26. > :20:31.able to transform the landscape of Europe? It is clear that the party
:20:32. > :20:35.system in Europe is under some kind of transformation and that has been
:20:36. > :20:38.going on for some time because we have seen this loosening of ties
:20:39. > :20:43.between established left-wing parties and right-wing parties that
:20:44. > :20:46.had support and we have a much more volatile electoral landscape where
:20:47. > :20:52.people pick and choose and it is also there for about parties like
:20:53. > :20:55.those of Wilders can shape the discourse and narrative and appeal
:20:56. > :20:58.to a broader range of people because they do not have his close ties any
:20:59. > :21:00.more to the Labour movement or a Christian Democratic movement. Thank
:21:01. > :21:03.you all for coming in. "If Britain leaves
:21:04. > :21:07.the European Union then will make Angela Merkel give us
:21:08. > :21:10.a good deal". That claim was made time
:21:11. > :21:12.and time again during last The Leave campaign was very
:21:13. > :21:15.confident that Europe's most powerful political leader
:21:16. > :21:18.would listen to her most important So are the likes of BMW and Porsche
:21:19. > :21:21.pushing the German Chancellor Naga Munchetty has been
:21:22. > :21:29.to Leipzig to find out. The Germans wouldn't want to put up
:21:30. > :21:32.trade barriers because that would mean that German car workers
:21:33. > :21:35.would be out of a job. Do you seriously suppose
:21:36. > :21:38.that they are going to be so insane as to allow tariffs to be imposed
:21:39. > :21:50.between Britain and Germany? Germany needs us, we
:21:51. > :21:52.are their biggest market. But now, here in Germany,
:21:53. > :21:55.the feeling is very different. The automotive sector is concerned
:21:56. > :21:57.about Theresa May's approach in Brexit negotiations
:21:58. > :22:02.and their financial impact. Priority number one is keep
:22:03. > :22:04.the internal market Most of the cars we export,
:22:05. > :22:13.we export to the European Union, the 27 countries, to Italy
:22:14. > :22:16.and France, to many parts And the second priority
:22:17. > :22:24.is our exports to Britain. A hard Brexit but definitely not be
:22:25. > :22:28.a good solution for both sides. Why is this relationship
:22:29. > :22:30.so important? The German auto industry has
:22:31. > :22:35.a lot invested in the UK. It runs 100 production sites,
:22:36. > :22:40.employing around 9000 people. More than half of all
:22:41. > :22:43.new cars we sell are built We bought 30 billion euros' worth
:22:44. > :22:56.of their vehicles last year. That is nearly a fifth
:22:57. > :23:04.of Germany's automobile exports. There are concerns that the length
:23:05. > :23:08.of time Theresa May needs to negotiate us out of the EU has
:23:09. > :23:10.been underestimated Two years for the complex
:23:11. > :23:18.negotiations of more than 100 parts You could do it in two years
:23:19. > :23:25.if you take, for example, Stay in the internal market,
:23:26. > :23:30.stay in the Customs Union, Which the Prime Minister
:23:31. > :23:38.has rejected. Therefore, as long as these existing
:23:39. > :23:40.models are rejected, And when it comes to what is most
:23:41. > :23:54.in Germany's interests, this long-time ally of Angela Merkel
:23:55. > :23:56.sings from the same hymn sheet Everyone who has a production site
:23:57. > :24:04.at the very moment in Britain is concerned about the developments
:24:05. > :24:09.which say that you If the doors to Europe would be
:24:10. > :24:13.in one or another way partly closed, then production
:24:14. > :24:24.in Britain would suffer. But while this remains
:24:25. > :24:26.Theresa May's stance, uncertainty is still
:24:27. > :24:30.the buzzword among business. Something the auto industry
:24:31. > :24:37.is getting used to. All of Porsche's car plants,
:24:38. > :24:39.like this one in Leipzig, However, the UK is its biggest
:24:40. > :24:44.export market in Europe. So companies like this cannot afford
:24:45. > :24:54.to ignore Brexit and are mindful Because time creates uncertainty
:24:55. > :25:09.and uncertainty can affect business. If time is too long until
:25:10. > :25:12.the negotiations are completed, It is something that many industry
:25:13. > :25:23.bosses are preoccupied with. It will be a little bit more
:25:24. > :25:26.difficult seeing exactly what changes will affect the market,
:25:27. > :25:29.what changes will affect the exchange of persons,
:25:30. > :25:33.the exchange of goods. But the relationship itself
:25:34. > :25:40.will be as good as before. However, we have been told
:25:41. > :25:44.that the bond can be broken. There are alternative manufacturing
:25:45. > :25:47.hubs vying for a service Eastern Europe is proving
:25:48. > :25:51.competitive, in places like Hungary, It is not given that
:25:52. > :25:59.any of our countries, Germany not, Britain not,
:26:00. > :26:01.will produce in five or ten years as many cars
:26:02. > :26:06.at home as it does today. And the political precondition,
:26:07. > :26:13.the trade precondition, is so important and one should
:26:14. > :26:16.always reflect that if one What consequence does my
:26:17. > :26:19.decision have on production Theresa May says the UK
:26:20. > :26:29.economy is a priority. But a UK outside the EU single
:26:30. > :26:33.market and Customs Union could, it seems, face the very real
:26:34. > :26:37.prospect of moving down the pecking order when it comes to Germany's
:26:38. > :26:44.favoured trading partners. Six years ago the Ministry
:26:45. > :26:47.of Defence set up the Iraq Historic Allegations Team to investigate
:26:48. > :26:50.allegations of human rights abuse It had a staff of 145 and looked
:26:51. > :26:58.at well over 3,000 cases. A week ago the lawyer
:26:59. > :27:00.who represented many of the claimants, Phil
:27:01. > :27:03.Shiner, was struck off for misconduct and today
:27:04. > :27:06.the Defence Select Committee published a damning report saying
:27:07. > :27:09.the inquiry had become "a seemingly unstoppable self-perpetuating
:27:10. > :27:12.machine, deaf to the concerns of the armed forces,
:27:13. > :27:14.blind to their needs and profligate Within a couple of hours the MoD
:27:15. > :27:20.confirmed they were all Colonel Bob Stewart
:27:21. > :27:34.is a Conservative MP and member Thank you for joining us. You ever
:27:35. > :27:40.in favour of this investigation? Back from the start, we heard people
:27:41. > :27:46.like myself, the heard serious complaints about the way they were
:27:47. > :27:49.being harassed by the Iraq Historic Allegations Team. They sent lawyers
:27:50. > :27:56.on the ground, they were hassled at home and MPs like myself and now
:27:57. > :28:02.Johnny Mercer, who did a superb job on the subcommittee, has taken this
:28:03. > :28:07.up and we have a result. Has this ever been attempted? I think the MoD
:28:08. > :28:12.made a mistake in the way it was set up. And the Ministry of Defence have
:28:13. > :28:17.put this right, except, can I say, for those poor devils who harassed
:28:18. > :28:22.for many years and months. How can we compensate for the anguish they
:28:23. > :28:26.went through? What should happen? A huge apology to them. And possibly
:28:27. > :28:34.we should consider some form of compensation. The trouble with this
:28:35. > :28:38.is there will be many who say that if there are allegations, these
:28:39. > :28:47.questions, they must be investigated independently? Absolutely. Whenever
:28:48. > :28:51.we get involved in a firefight with normal fatalities, either in
:28:52. > :28:54.Northern Ireland or Iraq or Afghanistan, there is an
:28:55. > :28:57.investigation and if there is something wrong, if there was
:28:58. > :29:02.investigating, normally military, if they feel there is something wrong,
:29:03. > :29:08.they are no friends to soldiers who they think have done wrong. Don't
:29:09. > :29:12.you find that Lord? The military is still investigating itself? The
:29:13. > :29:15.police have an independent body to investigate allegations. Why is
:29:16. > :29:21.everything in-house with the military? These people are separated
:29:22. > :29:26.and there is something else... The people who investigate understand
:29:27. > :29:30.the circumstances better than civilian policemen, perhaps. His
:29:31. > :29:35.military investigators and I repeat, if there is something wrong, they
:29:36. > :29:39.will reveal it. When you have these cases and we know there is a law
:29:40. > :29:43.firm who still have 80 Afghan citizens who allege abuse and
:29:44. > :29:49.illegal detainment, what should happen? The Ihat has been closed
:29:50. > :29:55.down and investigations have been given to the Royal Navy military
:29:56. > :29:59.personnel to police and check the site. I am not saying that all
:30:00. > :30:03.soldiers are innocent and we must investigate, I am saying there has
:30:04. > :30:08.been a lot of harassment of innocent soldiers and that has got to stop.
:30:09. > :30:12.It has been hugely stuck by the fact that Mr Shiner's company has been
:30:13. > :30:20.closed. In Northern Ireland with something similar going on. They
:30:21. > :30:25.have become mixed, judicial as well. Are they right to carry on? This is
:30:26. > :30:30.clearly what dates to happen in Northern Ireland. What is happening
:30:31. > :30:35.in Northern Ireland is 10% of the fatality killings involved the
:30:36. > :30:42.security services. 90% of the investigation is put onto those 10%
:30:43. > :30:45.and 90% of the killings involved terrorists and only 10% of the
:30:46. > :30:51.effort is being put into the investigation. That is wrong.
:30:52. > :30:55.Absolutely wrong. A lot of MPs, including myself, are up in arms. It
:30:56. > :31:02.will not follow the Way of this one? I hope so because at the moment, the
:31:03. > :31:07.armed Forces are pretty annoyed, it has to follow. If necessary, we will
:31:08. > :31:11.have to bring politics into this. We have brought politics into Northern
:31:12. > :31:14.Ireland before and politics, by that, we have allowed on the run
:31:15. > :31:21.terrorists to have a passport out of their crimes. And I think, please do
:31:22. > :31:24.not believe that the Armed Forces need some sort of Amnesty, they have
:31:25. > :31:30.done nothing wrong. They want to make sure that people who have been
:31:31. > :31:34.involved in fatalities shootings in Northern Ireland, and I have had
:31:35. > :31:37.some of my men in that situation, those people who have had an
:31:38. > :31:44.investigation sometimes they have gone into court and it happened with
:31:45. > :31:45.two of my men in 78, they have proven they are innocent. Don't
:31:46. > :31:49.bring this back again. Thank you. Before we go, in these extraordinary
:31:50. > :31:52.times it somehow seems appropriate and portentous that last night more
:31:53. > :31:55.than 400 pilot whales washed up on a New Zealand beach
:31:56. > :32:01.called Farewell Spit. It's the largest mass beaching
:32:02. > :32:04.in New Zealand for over 30 years. Many of the whales died but hundreds
:32:05. > :32:07.of volunteers are there attempting Some of them have now successfully
:32:08. > :33:06.been returned to the water. Just off to bed wondering what is in
:33:07. > :33:10.store for the weekend? You could be waking up this seems like this
:33:11. > :33:11.potentially in the morning if you live to the east of