:00:07. > :00:10.Will the generations go to war for a pension, a house, a job?
:00:11. > :00:26.Is young versus old the prize fight of the century?
:00:27. > :00:30.Your generation - is it the one that has never had it so good?
:00:31. > :00:33.Or the one that has worked its socks off to get Britain
:00:34. > :00:37.Tonight, have the older generation taken more than their share,
:00:38. > :00:40.and should the young feel aggrieved?
:00:41. > :00:43.With our guests in the studio, we'll work out how far your age
:00:44. > :01:02.It is nice living in Stoke, it's just poor, really.
:01:03. > :01:03.Ten days to the Stoke Central by-election -
:01:04. > :01:11.we don't hear from the candidates - we talk to the voters.
:01:12. > :01:17.It was tradition, they used to say if you put a monkey up for Labour
:01:18. > :01:19.people would vote for it. They have lost the common touch.
:01:20. > :01:36.President Obama said America would accept 1200 refugees. No, prepare to
:01:37. > :01:40.go to war. Is satire now the effective
:01:41. > :01:43.opposition to President Trump? We'll ask erstwhile
:01:44. > :01:48.American Ruby Wax. Have the baby boomers robbed
:01:49. > :01:53.the millennials of their future? Probably not, but research out this
:01:54. > :01:56.morning DID suggest something extraordinary is happening in terms
:01:57. > :01:59.of intergenerational incomes. The Resolution Foundation says that
:02:00. > :02:03.typical pensioner incomes - after housing costs -
:02:04. > :02:05.are now higher than those I can't overstate how unusual
:02:06. > :02:11.that is - in the old days we tended But a lot has happened
:02:12. > :02:16.in the last few decades. For one, the old have
:02:17. > :02:19.carried on working. A fifth of pensioner households
:02:20. > :02:23.have a wage earner in them. And of course they are enjoying
:02:24. > :02:26.the fruits of the heyday of the old final salary pension
:02:27. > :02:29.schemes - Add the way the housing market has
:02:30. > :02:35.worked in their favour... And politicians dumping the burden
:02:36. > :02:43.of austerity on the young... And for all the difficult decisions
:02:44. > :02:46.we've made over the past five years, we have said all along that
:02:47. > :02:48.dignity for older people And over the next five years,
:02:49. > :02:54.that should be the case again. And you can see why those
:02:55. > :02:57.starting out feel the cards So does it make sense
:02:58. > :03:00.to look at our economy through intergenerational eyes,
:03:01. > :03:03.given that society can be divided A lot of pensioners aren't well off,
:03:04. > :03:09.and don't understand why The income figures for the elderly
:03:10. > :03:14.are flattered by more recent, And anyway, there are plenty
:03:15. > :03:19.of well off youngsters. Many of them by the way, given
:03:20. > :03:22.a helping hand by their parents. So maybe the issue is inequalities
:03:23. > :03:25.within the generations that matter. Or is it a north south divide,
:03:26. > :03:28.driving house prices? Lots to think about,
:03:29. > :03:30.so let's start with some intergenerational facts
:03:31. > :03:35.from our policy editor Chris Cook. The road to a steady family life
:03:36. > :03:39.is longer than it used to be. Even for people who start off well,
:03:40. > :03:44.say by getting a degree. In 2016 the average person starting
:03:45. > :03:47.to repay a student loan in England Even in fee-free
:03:48. > :03:57.Scotland it was ?10,500. Now a large minority of young people
:03:58. > :04:01.have to service such debts. But wages for young workers
:04:02. > :04:05.overall dropped by around Wages have done a bit better
:04:06. > :04:12.for slightly older workers but the 60 pluses have done best
:04:13. > :04:14.of all, seeing real The median first-time buyer
:04:15. > :04:24.now is 30 years old. In 2017 first-time buyers borrowed
:04:25. > :04:33.3.5 times their annual earnings. And it's all money,
:04:34. > :04:43.of course that largely goes to existing homeowners,
:04:44. > :04:47.which is to say, older people. Some of this money heading up
:04:48. > :04:49.to older people will of course Of those born in the 1970s, 75% have
:04:50. > :04:57.received or expect to receive The equivalent number
:04:58. > :05:03.is just 40% for those But that effect means the wealth
:05:04. > :05:09.of younger generations will depend more on who their parents are then
:05:10. > :05:15.was the case for older generations. A study has also found that a 10%
:05:16. > :05:18.increase on house prices feeds through to a 2-4% drop
:05:19. > :05:22.in the likelihood of having a baby, And that effect persists so it's
:05:23. > :05:27.likely to mean young people who cannot get on the housing ladder
:05:28. > :05:32.end up with smaller families. Older people are also much more
:05:33. > :05:35.likely than younger people to be members of so-called defined
:05:36. > :05:39.benefits pension schemes. These are pensions where in effect,
:05:40. > :05:42.your employer guarantees a certain And young people are hit by that
:05:43. > :05:48.in two important ways. First of all, they just don't have
:05:49. > :05:51.that level of security. Their pensions ride
:05:52. > :05:54.on the stock market. And secondly, they manage
:05:55. > :05:57.to find their own wages, while they are employed,
:05:58. > :06:00.suppressed by their employers who have to bail out
:06:01. > :06:04.their old employees' pension funds. There are big inequalities
:06:05. > :06:08.within age bands. Poor young people and pensioners
:06:09. > :06:11.mustn't be forgotten. But there are big problems for young
:06:12. > :06:14.people's ability to navigate the path into adulthood,
:06:15. > :06:23.and through it. We're now joined by Laura Gardiner
:06:24. > :06:26.from the Resolution Foundation whose report prompted today's talk
:06:27. > :06:28.on this, Dame Esther Rantzen the founder of The Silver Line -
:06:29. > :06:32.a helpline for older people, Shiv Malik, author of the book
:06:33. > :06:34.Jilted Generation - referring to his generation
:06:35. > :06:54.as jilted, and Sean O'Grady Do the young complain too much? They
:06:55. > :06:57.do. Like the title of the book Jilted Generation there is nothing
:06:58. > :07:04.jilted about this generation, no sense in which we in my generation
:07:05. > :07:06.have eaten our lunch, we made their dodge ball them. There was an idea
:07:07. > :07:13.abroad that everything was easy in the old days, it was a kind of
:07:14. > :07:20.nirvana of economics but it was not. The 1970s and 1980s where an Origi
:07:21. > :07:26.of high inflation, mega high interest rates, negative equity when
:07:27. > :07:29.we had housing crashes. Rising unemployment, public services
:07:30. > :07:35.continually under strain. The economy went bust in 1976. These
:07:36. > :07:40.were terrible years and we lived through them, we built the country
:07:41. > :07:44.we have now today. By seeing that through, by reducing union power,
:07:45. > :07:49.reforming the economy and making all the changes that made all the
:07:50. > :07:55.wonderful things, wonderful new building here at the BBC, all these
:07:56. > :08:00.things possible. The only good thing about the 1970s was television was
:08:01. > :08:06.better. That is the truth of the matter. You get this idea everything
:08:07. > :08:11.was wonderful in my day and terrible today and that is not right. Would
:08:12. > :08:18.you rather have been born 15 years earlier than you were born, do you
:08:19. > :08:23.think in material terms... Yes, that is the existential problem facing
:08:24. > :08:28.the country. Also America and many other developing nations. That could
:08:29. > :08:32.explain why politics seems to be in turmoil as well. When the boomer
:08:33. > :08:37.generation cannot replicate what every other generation has done,
:08:38. > :08:43.make the next generation which, this is truly the legacy. And you think I
:08:44. > :08:47.wish I was born earlier, I would have been any more and had a better
:08:48. > :09:01.standard of living, more able to have a house and family, be able to
:09:02. > :09:05.own my own home. Would he have been worse off born 20 years before or
:09:06. > :09:10.about the same or a little better off but it feels worse off because
:09:11. > :09:15.he's not as much better than he wants to be? In terms of income, the
:09:16. > :09:21.best measure of current living standards, after housing costs we
:09:22. > :09:25.look to bat and every generation since 1881, and we only begin then
:09:26. > :09:29.because it is the first week of measure, has done better than the
:09:30. > :09:33.last at each stage of their lives. So it went a goal now should be
:09:34. > :09:39.better off? That is what we have come to expect in the 20th century
:09:40. > :09:45.and before but so far, and not all of them have got the way through yet
:09:46. > :09:49.but the millennial 's, born between 1981 and 2000 have failed to achieve
:09:50. > :09:53.those living standard improvements of the generation before. So this
:09:54. > :09:58.looks like a threat to the very core that has underpinned the social
:09:59. > :10:02.contract that generations improve on the previous one. So it is not that
:10:03. > :10:07.expectations have been richer than his parents, but he's a little bit
:10:08. > :10:13.behind where they wear? Slightly above, slightly below but compared
:10:14. > :10:19.to the generation just before, largely the same, those large
:10:20. > :10:23.improvements and disappear. Because the recession and pay squeezes but
:10:24. > :10:31.other trends as well. And with that start in life we should be worried
:10:32. > :10:36.about future of the millennial. Is your heartbreaking for the younger
:10:37. > :10:40.people? There is some self-pity going on which is interesting. I'm
:10:41. > :10:45.sorry your youth was so miserable and you feel you have lost out to be
:10:46. > :10:50.rich fat cats of the older generation. I was talking to a
:10:51. > :10:56.family, the mother, all her savings had gone to pay for her care and
:10:57. > :10:59.that of her husband, so her husband was left unburied for seven weeks
:11:00. > :11:05.because she could not afford his funeral. So you're right that some
:11:06. > :11:10.people are better off than others. There is still a great deal of
:11:11. > :11:17.poverty in old age but I am 76 years old, as I believe you are announcing
:11:18. > :11:20.to your viewers! That is OK I'm not ashamed. Let me just say that wealth
:11:21. > :11:26.and happiness are not the same thing. I worry about the millennial
:11:27. > :11:30.generation and younger, I worry about all kinds of dangers facing
:11:31. > :11:35.them. I worry about my own future because I do not want to be a burden
:11:36. > :11:40.on my children. So I have to have enough in my savings to pay for my
:11:41. > :11:45.own care, that is my big worry. But in the meantime stop being so
:11:46. > :11:51.envious of previous generations and little old people like us. Get on
:11:52. > :11:55.with it, enjoy your life. You have health and strength, you look fit. I
:11:56. > :12:01.always hate this condescension which I always receive from Esther. Every
:12:02. > :12:07.time we have this conversation. It is simple, people in my generation
:12:08. > :12:13.need simple things, housing, the ability to have an raise a family.
:12:14. > :12:16.And they need to be able to get on in life and know their future will
:12:17. > :12:19.be better. If that doesn't happen for our generation it will mean the
:12:20. > :12:30.entire country eventually will go bust. Better in which way? A bigger
:12:31. > :12:36.television? This is really serious. It is an existential threat to the
:12:37. > :12:41.country. It is very simple. It is the ability to own a home or be able
:12:42. > :12:46.to read in a place where you can raise a family. Anyone under 35
:12:47. > :12:52.knows what I'm talking about. It is definitely harder for this
:12:53. > :12:59.generation? There's no sense of perspective in this. If you record
:13:00. > :13:02.start in 1881, that is yesterday basically in human existence. For
:13:03. > :13:08.most of human life your parents or grandparents, they had the same
:13:09. > :13:13.standard of living. This is a relatively recent thing. There is no
:13:14. > :13:18.God-given right to have a higher or same standard of living for the
:13:19. > :13:25.fifth generation as for the previous one. The second thing, it is all
:13:26. > :13:30.about money with you young folk. It is OK for the people to say that
:13:31. > :13:36.having taken all the money! Let's look health, today and I am a
:13:37. > :13:40.beneficiary, there are treatments and drugs and machines and things
:13:41. > :13:46.like stem cell research that will mean that a child born today will
:13:47. > :13:50.never have any of the diseases that are so commonplace and hit people so
:13:51. > :13:55.hard today. They will not have so many strokes or cancers, all the
:13:56. > :14:01.other things that can go wrong. Not something that shows up in income
:14:02. > :14:07.numbers or house prices but it is a real boon. There is something in
:14:08. > :14:13.that. And you have a Spotify, smartphones, Facebook, lots of
:14:14. > :14:21.things. This kind of living standard versus the weekly income?
:14:22. > :14:29.The health care benefits are a benefit in itself and a measure of
:14:30. > :14:33.progress but it highlights longer retirements in which people need to
:14:34. > :14:40.raise more assets and wealth to live through them securely. You are right
:14:41. > :14:47.to highlight, it isn't just about incomes. The big ticket items, a
:14:48. > :14:51.pension and a house that you own to provide security in retirement, the
:14:52. > :14:56.reason we've highlighted a lot of the current pensioners in today's
:14:57. > :15:00.statistics is not pensioner bashing, it is not generational war, it is
:15:01. > :15:04.because our concern that this welcome performance in current
:15:05. > :15:07.pensioner living standards is going to be a one generation blip with
:15:08. > :15:12.those generations behind without those assets are unable to secure
:15:13. > :15:16.those living standards. It is a blip because the pensions you were
:15:17. > :15:19.promised, which you didn't give your parents, which you are now getting,
:15:20. > :15:26.have been much more expensive than anyone anticipated because life
:15:27. > :15:30.expectancy shot up for your generation. What are we doing with
:15:31. > :15:35.our money? Most of the people I know are helping to finance people of
:15:36. > :15:40.their children's generation and grandchildren. We are aware of that,
:15:41. > :15:44.we don't want to have money lying idle in the bank if we can improve
:15:45. > :15:50.the quality of life and give you the house you dream about. This is such
:15:51. > :15:55.rubbish. If you run a candidate based on that kind of thinking, you
:15:56. > :15:59.end up with a patronage society when families that are wealthy and those
:16:00. > :16:05.who are not wealthy don't get ahead. There is no collective investment. I
:16:06. > :16:08.would put it differently, it is welcome that parents and
:16:09. > :16:12.grandparents are supporting their children and that is a big trend,
:16:13. > :16:18.half of first-time buyers are getting help from family. The
:16:19. > :16:23.concern is that inheritance was mentioned in the package, if we rely
:16:24. > :16:29.on greater levels of inheritance to fund asset building for the younger
:16:30. > :16:32.generations, we know that younger people with higher lifetime incomes
:16:33. > :16:37.tend to get those inheritances, we are staring down the barrel of
:16:38. > :16:40.greater inequality in the future. Inequality, I think your report
:16:41. > :16:44.said, among his generation is worse than it is amongst the old
:16:45. > :16:49.generation, so you are cascading down inequality. When you argue
:16:50. > :16:55.about whether we should be focusing on intergenerational differences,
:16:56. > :16:58.class, the North and south, the things you mentioned, it's right to
:16:59. > :17:03.focus on those things but one important to focus on these new
:17:04. > :17:07.generational divides, which are very clear, there's a good chance that
:17:08. > :17:11.they will fuel divisions between rich and poor, different social
:17:12. > :17:16.classes in the future. The issues are connected and they are
:17:17. > :17:19.important. When you were looking at these statistics, is it not right
:17:20. > :17:24.that for the older generation, especially the frail and very old,
:17:25. > :17:29.everything is more expensive? It's more difficult for them to get
:17:30. > :17:32.around, difficult to get the right nutrition, everything becomes
:17:33. > :17:37.expensive and difficult. Just getting the basics of a comfortable
:17:38. > :17:41.bed, being able to get out of bed, being looked after properly. We
:17:42. > :17:48.don't want people to live in cold houses and dying in them because
:17:49. > :17:52.they can't afford to put the hate -- the heating on. The very old ones
:17:53. > :17:56.are not among the rich are pensioners, it is the younger ones.
:17:57. > :18:02.Pension income does not reflect individual experiences, on average
:18:03. > :18:06.we have which, younger of pensioners coming in. You are right to
:18:07. > :18:10.highlight the very old pensioners, the Silent generation and our report
:18:11. > :18:15.looks in detail at the increased costs a face and why the statistics
:18:16. > :18:18.may overstate their living standards. We've got into that
:18:19. > :18:23.detail and not everybody in the pension group is the same. The
:18:24. > :18:24.averages cover a lot of sins. Thank you very much.
:18:25. > :18:27.On Thursday week, the voters of Stoke Central will go
:18:28. > :18:30.to the polls to vote for an MP to replace Tristram Hunt.
:18:31. > :18:33.Since 1950, when the seat was created, it's been Labour.
:18:34. > :18:35.But such are convulsions of politics at the moment,
:18:36. > :18:38.that no-one is at all sure that Labour will win it this time.
:18:39. > :18:41.The reason is that Stoke-on-Trent was firmly for Brexit;
:18:42. > :18:45.so in the great schism of our age, the city seems more sure
:18:46. > :18:49.of which side it is on than the Labour Party is.
:18:50. > :18:53.Because of that, a lot of attention is being devoted to this by-election
:18:54. > :18:55.as telling us something about whether Labour can
:18:56. > :18:57.hold on to blue collar votes outside of London.
:18:58. > :19:00.Now, with a by-election pending, you'd expect a programme like this
:19:01. > :19:03.to send someone to Stoke to interview the candidates,
:19:04. > :19:06.follow them canvassing and probably poke a bit of fun at the theatre
:19:07. > :19:09.But we decided to do something different -
:19:10. > :19:18.we sent Katie Razzall to go and talk to the people of Stoke Central.
:19:19. > :19:20.I worked in the Pots most of my life.
:19:21. > :19:26.Stoke-on-Trent, it's a little backwater.
:19:27. > :19:33.No one in this country's interested in Stoke-on-Trent.
:19:34. > :19:45.People are very angry and I think people just want change.
:19:46. > :19:50.Eight months ago Stoke-on-Trent sent tremors through the political
:19:51. > :19:52.establishment when almost 70% of voters here opted
:19:53. > :19:58.It was a signifier of the fault lines opening up in Britain.
:19:59. > :20:08.At the Oakcake shop near Stoke's vast Bentilee estate,
:20:09. > :20:12.people queue to buy what was once the staple food of the Potteries.
:20:13. > :20:14.The recipe for oatcakes hasn't changed much
:20:15. > :20:19.The same can't be said for the place.
:20:20. > :20:22.My mum and my dad never ever were out of work
:20:23. > :20:34.We weren't rich, but we weren't like we are today.
:20:35. > :20:37.My childhood is and will always be better from what his
:20:38. > :20:43.Families like Kirsty's have lived around Stoke's Bentilee
:20:44. > :20:49.Once they expected to walk into a job.
:20:50. > :20:51.In the mines, the steelworks, or the pottery industry
:20:52. > :20:56.Her aunt Marie remembers those times.
:20:57. > :20:59.I worked in the Pots most of my life.
:21:00. > :21:02.You came home at night you were absolutely shattered.
:21:03. > :21:04.But you just had a family, they were really,
:21:05. > :21:11.And everybody, just everybody helped everybody.
:21:12. > :21:17.They shut all these pot places down and there was no help.
:21:18. > :21:20.Just as if they just disappeared off the face of the earth.
:21:21. > :21:26.There's a hell of a lot of people depressed.
:21:27. > :21:28.Hell of a lot of people struggling moneywise.
:21:29. > :21:32.And it isn't as if they go on holiday or they've got a fancy
:21:33. > :21:36.car, they don't have cars, they don't go on holiday.
:21:37. > :21:40.There's people who work and they're slogging and they've got nothing.
:21:41. > :21:43.And it's sort of one week to the next, hand to mouth.
:21:44. > :21:50.The overwhelming Out vote was a wake-up call.
:21:51. > :21:54.Now all eyes are on Stoke once again.
:21:55. > :21:55.The Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central,
:21:56. > :22:01.The by-election he's triggered is being seen as a test
:22:02. > :22:03.of whether voters in this Labour heartland are as loyal
:22:04. > :22:08.Would everyone on this estate have voted Labour in the past?
:22:09. > :22:15.They were just the working man, weren't they?
:22:16. > :22:19.It's what your mum and dad did, so you did it.
:22:20. > :22:27.They used to be saying, if you put a monkey up for Labour,
:22:28. > :22:38.Certainty comes in other forms, wherever you travel in Stoke.
:22:39. > :22:40.These days you're more likely to meet an Out
:22:41. > :22:44.And many of them will tell you how much more vibrant
:22:45. > :22:52.It changed because all the shops have gone, left empty, falling down.
:22:53. > :22:55.There used to be 20 pubs along this high street, 20 pubs.
:22:56. > :23:01.Chris Humphries runs the pensioner events
:23:02. > :23:03.at her local community centre, and voted Out.
:23:04. > :23:07.I thought that was probably going to be the best thing
:23:08. > :23:12.because we probably could make the elitist government
:23:13. > :23:16.start thinking about the whole of the population.
:23:17. > :23:21.Do you feel that there is an elite and they don't listen?
:23:22. > :23:28.Many here told me they do still support Labour.
:23:29. > :23:29.But turning round the party's electoral fortunes
:23:30. > :23:36.In the Stoke Central constituency, Labour lost 27% of its vote share
:23:37. > :23:43.I always voted Labour but then I got thinking about lots of things.
:23:44. > :23:48.Labour are fighting amongst themselves, aren't they?
:23:49. > :23:52.And there doesn't seem to be leadership there.
:23:53. > :23:55.And Ukip seem to, I don't know, they seem to know
:23:56. > :24:01.They're so prosperous down in London, I think they think
:24:02. > :24:05.we are a load of idiots or something like that.
:24:06. > :24:08.Do you think that the people you're talking about in the south,
:24:09. > :24:11.do you think we'd listen if you voted in a Ukip
:24:12. > :24:15.I don't think so, I don't think they want to know anything
:24:16. > :24:19.Ukip sent in the big guns to persuade voters that
:24:20. > :24:31.It'll take a seismic shift though, to oust Labour
:24:32. > :24:35.But if it's going to happen anywhere, it'll happen in a place
:24:36. > :24:44.Plenty of people I've spoken to say they've had Ukip knock on their door
:24:45. > :24:46.The party is clearly sensing an opportunity
:24:47. > :24:49.to make a real breakthrough into Labour's heartland.
:24:50. > :24:53.If they do, it will be down in part to a feeling from many that for too
:24:54. > :24:55.long the Labour Party took their vote for granted.
:24:56. > :25:00.I've lived here now for about 25 years and nobody has
:25:01. > :25:03.ever knocked on my door during election time, ever.
:25:04. > :25:10.Conservatives aren't going to come, are they?
:25:11. > :25:15.I'm not saying they've never knocked on a door,
:25:16. > :25:32.Labour may still be able to count on Marie, but allegiances
:25:33. > :25:35.in politics aren't as solid as they once were.
:25:36. > :25:39.Here people take pride in Premier League Stoke City's success story.
:25:40. > :25:43.This is one of the few things that puts us on the map.
:25:44. > :25:48.You know, my father was in the mines, you know,
:25:49. > :25:57.I think it would be a kick in the teeth
:25:58. > :26:02.Because this city, you virtually guarantee, there's three
:26:03. > :26:10.In a place where the bedrock of support for leaving the EU came
:26:11. > :26:13.from traditional working-class Labour voters, perhaps
:26:14. > :26:16.the referendum illustrates just how much we've shifted as a nation.
:26:17. > :26:18.I'm a Conservative, and you won't get too
:26:19. > :26:23.But I wonder how many, you know, we've got the by-election coming up
:26:24. > :26:28.and it'll be very interesting for me to see who gets in.
:26:29. > :26:31.Because I think it's over 60 years since we had a non-Labour MP.
:26:32. > :26:34.People used to really associate strongly with political parties.
:26:35. > :26:39.But do you think that has changed in Britain?
:26:40. > :26:42.I think most definitely, it's did you vote In or did you vote Out now.
:26:43. > :26:45.And the lines are so blurred between the political parties that
:26:46. > :26:47.you can sometimes excuse people for not knowing who
:26:48. > :26:54.Those people that aren't from Stoke who are just seeing
:26:55. > :26:57.we voted 70% to leave, think that we're probably
:26:58. > :27:12.Stoke can seem a city of the left behind.
:27:13. > :27:15.But there is actually much more to be positive
:27:16. > :27:20.Knocking down the old for better homes.
:27:21. > :27:24.What's left of the pottery industry is thriving.
:27:25. > :27:27.And though wages are low and jobs still insecure, unemployment has
:27:28. > :27:36.Watch it doesn't touch the walls because it's a bit damp and muddy.
:27:37. > :27:39.After seven years on the dole, Alex Petula now has a paid job
:27:40. > :27:42.with Bentilee Volunteers, a charity on the estate.
:27:43. > :27:45.I'm glad the pits have closed because I wouldn't have wanted
:27:46. > :27:49.I much prefer walking in a warm warehouse you know with proper
:27:50. > :27:51.training and health and safety and all that.
:27:52. > :27:56.Because the stories my dad told me, there was no health and safety,
:27:57. > :27:58.you know, there was nothing safe about working in the pits.
:27:59. > :28:02.As a Remainer, Alex is a rarity in Stoke.
:28:03. > :28:08.He told me he might now consider voting Liberal Democrat and has no
:28:09. > :28:11.truck with those he believes wrongly blame others for their problems.
:28:12. > :28:14.The first thing most people say is, you know, you can't get any jobs
:28:15. > :28:19.But, you know, the Polish were willing to come and do
:28:20. > :28:26.You know, "I worked 40 years, blah blah."
:28:27. > :28:28.Well, you know, that's life, that's what happens, isn't it?
:28:29. > :28:32.People's fears about immigration helped make Ukip
:28:33. > :28:38.But the by-election isn't just a huge test of Labour support.
:28:39. > :28:41.Winning is also vital for Ukip, who've pledged to replace Labour
:28:42. > :28:47.If they win, they'll have started a transition from a Brexit party
:28:48. > :28:51.If they lose, they'll be written off as irrelevant in this
:28:52. > :29:01.For the people of Stoke, though, life isn't as binary.
:29:02. > :29:04.Whoever the winner, the difference to this place will only come
:29:05. > :29:12.if prospects improve and lives take a turn for the better.
:29:13. > :29:17.Well, even though you didn't hear from the candidates in that piece,
:29:18. > :29:28.And it's available on the BBC website.
:29:29. > :29:30.Stoke is not the only by-election next week -
:29:31. > :29:32.Copeland in Cumbria also goes to the polls.
:29:33. > :29:39.Let's talk about what to expect with our political editor, Nick Watt.
:29:40. > :29:46.Well by by-election in Stoke is a test for Labour and Ukip. If Labour
:29:47. > :29:54.cannot hold on to this seat then Jeremy Corbyn has big problems,
:29:55. > :29:57.number one reaching out to Brexit voters and number two reaching out
:29:58. > :30:02.to working class voters. But the Ukip if it cannot win in the seat
:30:03. > :30:06.which finished a strong second at the general election then that will
:30:07. > :30:10.raise wider questions about Paul Nuttall and his attempts to reach
:30:11. > :30:14.out to working class voters in the Midlands and the North. No great
:30:15. > :30:19.surprise that both parties are talking up their chances. They were
:30:20. > :30:23.saying it did not sound great in Stoke Central about three weeks ago
:30:24. > :30:27.but now looking up. Ukip buoyed by that poll in the Times today saying
:30:28. > :30:31.Labour is the third most popular party amongst working-class voters.
:30:32. > :30:37.What about the Tories? Of course they're taking Stoke Central
:30:38. > :30:42.seriously, they finished 33 votes behind Ukip in the general election
:30:43. > :30:45.but the focus is not so much on winning the by-election but raising
:30:46. > :30:48.their profile across Stoke because the three seats are due to go down
:30:49. > :30:54.to two seats after the boundary review and they hope they can win
:30:55. > :30:59.those two seats in 2020. Their hopes Aaron Copland and Theresa May will
:31:00. > :31:03.visit that West Cumbrian seat later this week and if the Tories were to
:31:04. > :31:07.win that would be the first time a governing party since 1982 would
:31:08. > :31:14.have taken a seat from the main opposition party as a by-election.
:31:15. > :31:18.And Labour is sounding a lot less confident in Copland than in Stoke
:31:19. > :31:24.Central. Jeremy Corbyn less enthusiastic support for the nuclear
:31:25. > :31:25.industry not great in the home of the Sellafield nuclear reprocessing
:31:26. > :31:28.plant. I don't know how many
:31:29. > :31:31.times in the last year, I have heard people gaze
:31:32. > :31:33.upon Donald Trump with perplexity or disbelief and say
:31:34. > :31:35.words to the effect, Well, they are obviously wrong,
:31:36. > :31:38.because satire in the era of President Trump has
:31:39. > :31:46.never been as strong. Dear Mr President, welcome
:31:47. > :31:48.to this introduction video It's going to be
:31:49. > :31:53.absolutely fantastic. Are you sure Russia
:31:54. > :31:54.was behind hacking? We've got all the best words,
:31:55. > :32:09.all the other languages failed. I figured out a smart diplomatic way
:32:10. > :32:26.to get them to pay for this wall. Guy who's going to pay
:32:27. > :32:31.for the wall says what? An entire ocean
:32:32. > :32:36.between us and Mexico. Nobody builds oceans
:32:37. > :32:42.better than we do. Well, one contention is that satire
:32:43. > :32:45.has become the most effective form of opposition to Donald Trump,
:32:46. > :32:47.what with the Democrats Let's talk to the comedian
:32:48. > :32:54.Ruby Wax and the columnist, wit and baiter of liberals,
:32:55. > :32:56.Rod Liddle, who also happens to be Spectator's Associate Editor and who
:32:57. > :33:00.joins us from Middlesborough. And also, Scott Dikkers is in
:33:01. > :33:03.Chicago - he was the founder-editor of satirical online magazine,
:33:04. > :33:15.The Onion. Good evening. Scott, what is the
:33:16. > :33:20.satire trying to achieve, just trying to make people laugh or is
:33:21. > :33:24.there a political edge and purpose to it? Before I answer that I want
:33:25. > :33:30.to make sure you know I'm just going to make up a bunch of stuff in this
:33:31. > :33:33.interview and called it a fact. Everything that you say I'm going to
:33:34. > :33:43.call that fake news, just to set the ground rules. So satire is supposed
:33:44. > :33:48.to be funny. The main thing is it has got to get people laughing. It
:33:49. > :33:56.does not necessarily have any serious intent unless you get the
:33:57. > :34:00.subtext. Maybe a lot of people is -- and not just getting the subtext of
:34:01. > :34:04.do not think it is funny. But those who get it, do. Is it better though
:34:05. > :34:07.if it upsets Donald Trump, do you want it upsets Donald Trump, do you
:34:08. > :34:13.wanted to upset him, some people say he is getting upset and riled by it.
:34:14. > :34:20.In a way that is the because you're not able to communicate any actual
:34:21. > :34:24.facts to him. Or any reason -based analysis that somehow is going to
:34:25. > :34:27.cut through the clutter. If you can annoy him then at least you have got
:34:28. > :34:34.his attention and maybe that is the best you could do. In some ways the
:34:35. > :34:37.satire is focusing all the rage in America, all the protests and
:34:38. > :34:42.everything else which he does not see, he thinks that those people
:34:43. > :34:46.literally are cheering for him. So if the satire can channel but anger
:34:47. > :34:54.and directed him like a laser pen maybe that is worth something. --
:34:55. > :34:59.and directed to him like a laser. If we're talking in the context of
:35:00. > :35:04.Donald Trump, he is the satire. We are in a new situation. Let me just
:35:05. > :35:10.say, we can talk about satire but we are wasting their time, the elephant
:35:11. > :35:15.in the room with the roadkill on its head is the fact that the guy is a
:35:16. > :35:20.narcissist. This is the first time we had someone pathologically not
:35:21. > :35:26.right, and I'm not being funny. He has a mental disturbance. I
:35:27. > :35:29.interviewed him 15 years ago in an aeroplane, his claim and he said he
:35:30. > :35:36.would be president and I laughed in his face. He said I want her out of
:35:37. > :35:42.here, land the plane and we landed in Arkansas. What is there to satire
:35:43. > :35:50.when the guy is... Due not like the satire? I like it but to be comedy
:35:51. > :35:54.should also reflect who we are. The is not think we are so witty, we
:35:55. > :35:59.forgot about Nebraska and Arkansas, something is wrong in the world when
:36:00. > :36:04.they do not launch Saturday Night Live so we're going nowhere. So the
:36:05. > :36:08.smug get smug. I love satire because at least it unites the world. But
:36:09. > :36:15.you think it was playing to the same people. Exactly add my opinion is
:36:16. > :36:18.Donald Trump is getting off on those things, the narcissist loves
:36:19. > :36:23.attention, whether it is for infamy or do they adore him, all the same
:36:24. > :36:32.to him. He's getting all the luck he ever wanted. I think I heard you say
:36:33. > :36:41.yes when Ruby said the people of Nebraska are watching. I could name
:36:42. > :36:46.all the counties in America as opposed to all the love these in
:36:47. > :36:52.America. I had not heard any satire yet, I heard an explosion of peak
:36:53. > :36:55.from the well off, the middle-class, the students, the actors and
:36:56. > :37:01.actresses. I have not heard any satire. There is a problem, the
:37:02. > :37:06.satirists have two problems, satire is always better when it comes from
:37:07. > :37:11.underneath, when it is against the establishment. Even the Donald Trump
:37:12. > :37:15.is now president and we voted for Brexit, we still have an
:37:16. > :37:20.establishment which loathes Donald Trump and Brexit, the media, the
:37:21. > :37:24.judges and so on. It is always more potent when it comes from
:37:25. > :37:30.underneath. But the second problem is with satire, it has to be nasty.
:37:31. > :37:35.It has to be bad. And I'm afraid the people who most loathed Donald Trump
:37:36. > :37:39.will not go down that route because they are constrained by their own
:37:40. > :37:44.ideology. That they cannot be too nasty. You could not get from them
:37:45. > :37:49.the sort of stuff which Jonathan Swift came up with in a modest
:37:50. > :37:54.proposal because it is beyond the realm of their intellect to be as
:37:55. > :38:05.offensive as that. They would not do it. With 15 years, eight years of
:38:06. > :38:08.jump, 15 years of the post-liberal revolution and then maybe the
:38:09. > :38:19.satirists will get it again. What you think of what you just heard,
:38:20. > :38:25.Scott? I respectfully disagree. I feel a lot of the satire so far has
:38:26. > :38:31.been very biting and not all that comes from the establishment. I know
:38:32. > :38:36.people who write, many of them used to work for me and these are not
:38:37. > :38:40.rich establishment people, they are poor down and out people who have
:38:41. > :38:46.every reason to bring down authorities. That is what makes the
:38:47. > :38:49.best satire, when you bring down authority and the establishment. And
:38:50. > :38:55.they're going after him hard, they're being mean and certainly a
:38:56. > :39:00.lot of it, if you watch late talk shows, that stuff is all kind of
:39:01. > :39:04.cute and they will bring Donald Trump on the show. I think it needs
:39:05. > :39:11.to be something that makes them angry and not that he laughs along
:39:12. > :39:16.with. The point seems to be that the left are the ones trying to satirise
:39:17. > :39:22.more and they're the ones... There are no other kinds of satirists. I
:39:23. > :39:30.agree, it comes from an anger and as long as Alec Baldwin keeps it up
:39:31. > :39:34.unhappy. They are at the top of the game. But still it has nothing to
:39:35. > :39:40.do, you know, it has nothing to do with what is going on now, Saturday
:39:41. > :39:43.Night Live. What is going on now is far more dangerous than the time of
:39:44. > :39:47.spitting image. Let him get nasty, it does not matter, the people who
:39:48. > :39:54.voted for him are not listening and so we are in trouble. I do not know
:39:55. > :40:00.what we can do. You consider yourself to be a satirist, you write
:40:01. > :40:06.witty and biting pieces, and you attempt to offend the people you
:40:07. > :40:09.politically oppose. Are we over complicating the discussion,
:40:10. > :40:14.basically some people like to mockery other side and always will
:40:15. > :40:19.do. It is what they will always do and always do. I'm not sure I would
:40:20. > :40:24.dignify myself in any way as a satirist but if Alec Baldwin is a
:40:25. > :40:31.satirist then yes! I must be near the top of the tree if he is there.
:40:32. > :40:35.The problem is, the problem you have is I heard much the same things
:40:36. > :40:40.being said about Ronald Reagan in 1980 from the shrieking left. I was
:40:41. > :40:44.one of the people at the time were shrieking. And I had much the same
:40:45. > :40:51.kind of stuff talked about George W Bush and his ignorance and
:40:52. > :40:55.unfamiliarity with foreign affairs. Not perhaps knowing where the
:40:56. > :41:00.Netherlands is. Exactly the same stuff about him and it made no
:41:01. > :41:05.difference. We do not make any difference in the short-term but we
:41:06. > :41:12.drip in over the long-term as part of a kind of reappraisal of where we
:41:13. > :41:15.are. But the idea is that satire might suddenly stop Donald Trump
:41:16. > :41:22.building this wall and that is absurd. What makes good starter for
:41:23. > :41:29.you? Ruby? That is not my style, I like when we held up the mirror to
:41:30. > :41:33.ourselves and say these are my foibles and everyone goes, that is
:41:34. > :41:39.me too. Just avoid the finger and he needs the finger. But to meet comedy
:41:40. > :41:45.is about that. It has to have something real in it and resonate?
:41:46. > :41:51.And you can mock Donald Trump by picking things that are real about
:41:52. > :41:55.him. I did the show with him, that was enough satire. Let him hang
:41:56. > :41:57.himself. But he is getting pleasure out of those Twitter messages. Thank
:41:58. > :42:21.you very much. A milder prospect for everyone for
:42:22. > :42:23.the rest of the week. Quite chilly start to the day despite