:00:00. > :00:09.An ecstatic crowd in London wait to cheer a fresh face young
:00:10. > :00:12.politician in a huge rally, bedecked with red
:00:13. > :00:23.He's Emmanuel Macron, and he's running for French president.
:00:24. > :00:29.Not since Jeremy Corbyn's leadership rallies has there been such
:00:30. > :00:32.enthusiasm for a political leader in the UK, and even
:00:33. > :00:35.British liberal Remainers are pinning their hopes on him.
:00:36. > :00:37.We'll ask two British centrist politicians if they are for him,
:00:38. > :00:41.Also tonight, is this the reason why HIV infection rates
:00:42. > :00:48.We went back over all our new HIV diagnoses and each month
:00:49. > :00:56.But then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in London
:00:57. > :01:04.And is the NHS the last bastion of Communism?
:01:05. > :01:07.Four hours for emergency care, two months to start cancer
:01:08. > :01:10.treatment and six months for a routine operation.
:01:11. > :01:21.Let's stop trying to fix it, let's totally change the model.
:01:22. > :01:26.French politics has never been more interesting.
:01:27. > :01:29.For one thing, Marine Le Pen is the leading candidate
:01:30. > :01:32.in opinion polls for the first round of the presidential election.
:01:33. > :01:35.No-one can dismiss her as fringe anymore.
:01:36. > :01:38.But her opponents make the race interesting too.
:01:39. > :01:43.In the final round of election, Le Pen's rival is expected to win.
:01:44. > :01:46.And the leading opponent - just - is Emmanuel Macron.
:01:47. > :01:49.He is interesting because he has the potential to redefine
:01:50. > :01:55.He's young, he's an outsider with a new party, and today,
:01:56. > :02:01.His message might appeal to the many French voters in the UK,
:02:02. > :02:04.but for that dispirited group of British liberal remainers here,
:02:05. > :02:13.he seems to have quite a bit of appeal too.
:02:14. > :02:16.They'd queued around the corner to see the French politician
:02:17. > :02:24.Is he a potential beachhead in the fight against the populist
:02:25. > :02:48.There is a lot of liberal hope being invested in his politics.
:02:49. > :02:51.He looked very comfortable here in London, and in a way he fits
:02:52. > :02:58.He is socially liberal, believes in same-sex marriage.
:02:59. > :03:01.He is economically liberal, he's against the French 35-hour week.
:03:02. > :03:06.He is the antithesis of Donald Trump.
:03:07. > :03:11.What I like best about Macron is that he is not of the right.
:03:12. > :03:16.Where we are now in politics, anybody who can win who is not
:03:17. > :03:24.of the right and who will fight off the right is an asset.
:03:25. > :03:26.It's a second-order issue precisely what policies are,
:03:27. > :03:28.what we know is that he's not racist, he is pro-European,
:03:29. > :03:32.And he will fight off some of the dark forces
:03:33. > :03:39.This is a message for American researchers...
:03:40. > :03:44.He has a canny political sense for appealing to liberals.
:03:45. > :03:47.I do know how your new President now has decided to jeopardise your
:03:48. > :03:49.budget, your initiatives, as he is extremely sceptical
:03:50. > :04:00.Now, the French election comes to a showdown
:04:01. > :04:05.Current poll ratings say he would be one of them
:04:06. > :04:08.Which raises an interesting question.
:04:09. > :04:10.If he is so popular in France, why isn't
:04:11. > :04:16.Could he or his ilk make it over here?
:04:17. > :04:19.In some ways, our old party loyalties disguise the changing
:04:20. > :04:25.Conservative Anna Soubry is surely closer to say,
:04:26. > :04:28.the centrist Alan Johnson in Labour, than she is to Jacob
:04:29. > :04:37.Alan Johnson must be surely closer to her or to Nick Clegg
:04:38. > :04:40.in the Lib Dems than he is to his own leader Jeremy Corbyn.
:04:41. > :04:43.And you could even argue a slew of big-name Conservative and Labour
:04:44. > :04:49.And they have a minority segment of the public behind them.
:04:50. > :04:52.Over the last year it is clear the old ideas about left and right
:04:53. > :04:55.are not sufficient to fully understand politics in Britain,
:04:56. > :04:56.in France and across developed democracies.
:04:57. > :04:59.And so in YouGov we have looked at the new tribes
:05:00. > :05:05.And we have found that with 37% in France and 37% in Britain,
:05:06. > :05:08.it's the pro-EU, internationalist moderates, this centrist
:05:09. > :05:11.group, who are actually the largest single group.
:05:12. > :05:13.And they support the EU, they support controlled immigration
:05:14. > :05:20.And the question now is can Macron in France or indeed
:05:21. > :05:23.any candidate in Britain or France sufficiently capture enough
:05:24. > :05:30.The problem for British centrists is not just that they're stuck
:05:31. > :05:33.in three different parties, the voting system makes it hard
:05:34. > :05:42.Memories of the old SDP, a Macron-esque party of the early
:05:43. > :05:45.'80s, instil fear in those wanting to break the mould.
:05:46. > :05:57.As for Macron, no one really knows if he is a winner yet,
:05:58. > :06:00.But for liberals, feeling pretty battered,
:06:01. > :06:08.Conservative Ed Vaizey was Culture Minister from 2010-16
:06:09. > :06:11.and Labour MP Alison McGovern is the chair of Progress -
:06:12. > :06:15.a Labour think tank which has been associated with New Labour
:06:16. > :06:18.in the past, and now describes itself as an organisation
:06:19. > :06:20.which "aims to promote a radical and progressive politics
:06:21. > :06:29.We've got you both here because we think you are pretty similar in your
:06:30. > :06:33.politics even know you are in different parties. You are going to
:06:34. > :06:39.concoct an argument between yourselves. Do you like Macron,
:06:40. > :06:43.Alison? Tempting though it is to draw conclusions about what's
:06:44. > :06:45.happening in France, the parallels are limited because there is a
:06:46. > :06:50.totally different system in France. The internal dynamic that happens
:06:51. > :06:57.because of their system isn't necessarily applicable. I'm keen
:06:58. > :07:01.that we have lots of European cooperation, despite Brexit, because
:07:02. > :07:06.my constituents' jobs depend on it but having a direct read across from
:07:07. > :07:14.what is happening in France isn't really possible. You are the big
:07:15. > :07:19.issues, you are in the same places? On things like the idea that in a
:07:20. > :07:22.world where most companies of any size are multinational, I think
:07:23. > :07:25.European cooperation is the right thing and I'm pretty sure he would
:07:26. > :07:33.agree. I think he would. The same question to you, you have met
:07:34. > :07:39.Macron? I spoke to him a couple of times, once when he was wooing tech
:07:40. > :07:43.companies in London, when it was the European Union and French companies
:07:44. > :07:46.were flowing over here. He's very charismatic and I like a lot of what
:07:47. > :07:53.he says and a lot of his policies for France. For me as a centre-right
:07:54. > :07:57.politician, very attractive policies, attacking the 35 hour
:07:58. > :08:01.week, deregulating the Labour market, which urgently needs doing.
:08:02. > :08:07.Whether he will succeed if he wins is another question. Interesting to
:08:08. > :08:11.see Polly Toynbee endorsing him as the only backstop to stop Marine Le
:08:12. > :08:16.Pen. He's in that position by accident because the Fillon campaign
:08:17. > :08:21.has imploded but would she say the same thing about that, supporting
:08:22. > :08:26.anybody who would stop Le Pen? She is more enthusiastic about Macron.
:08:27. > :08:35.Let's get to the real gist of this, should you be in the same party? No,
:08:36. > :08:40.absolutely not. I'm a left-wing politician. As much as I think we
:08:41. > :08:44.should modernise our ideas and look to the future, for me, the nature of
:08:45. > :08:48.politics is about where you come from, who you listen to, and that's
:08:49. > :08:54.very different across the two parties. We have a different system
:08:55. > :08:57.in Britain. I understand the Conservative Party and Labour Party
:08:58. > :09:07.are different, I'm wondering if you are closer to Ed than Jeremy Corbyn.
:09:08. > :09:13.I'm a Labour politician and I walk through the lobbies with Jeremy
:09:14. > :09:17.Corbyn two of those -- to oppose a lot of what the Conservatives did
:09:18. > :09:21.which has put the economy in a mess that when it came to the Brexit
:09:22. > :09:24.vote, they had to protest against David Cameron and George Osborne for
:09:25. > :09:30.what they have done. I don't buy the idea that, you know, in the centre
:09:31. > :09:36.we are all the same. We have a different system. You aren't all the
:09:37. > :09:37.same, it's just that the differences between new two are smaller than
:09:38. > :09:44.those differences between your leaders. The coalition may not be
:09:45. > :09:48.between your leader, but it may more naturally be between you and other
:09:49. > :09:51.people in the centre. Where I think there is an important point to that
:09:52. > :09:57.argument is that the debate we are in in Britain, everything in
:09:58. > :10:03.politics is being flown to the ends. Brexit seems to have given a lot of
:10:04. > :10:07.power to people on the hard right and the far right and I think that's
:10:08. > :10:10.problematic because they don't represent the interests of the
:10:11. > :10:16.majority of people in our country. Getting issues like, you know,
:10:17. > :10:21.schools funding on the agenda can be really difficult because Brexit is
:10:22. > :10:27.sweeping everything else out the way. Do you think you should be in
:10:28. > :10:32.the same party as Alison, Ed? I agree on the point that Brexit has
:10:33. > :10:38.thrown up talk of some kind of crazy political realignment. Maybe there
:10:39. > :10:43.will be a Remainer realignment but people have been talking about a
:10:44. > :10:49.third way, 20 years ago. People forget, there's a tendency,
:10:50. > :10:53.especially for Remainers like me to characterise Brexiteers as these
:10:54. > :10:58.insular, non-globalist parochial politicians but Boris Johnson is a
:10:59. > :11:03.liberal, open the globalist, Michael Gove keeps a copy of Tony Blair's
:11:04. > :11:09.autobiography on his bedside table and refers to him as the master. Why
:11:10. > :11:13.on earth did they find themselves campaigning alongside the likes of
:11:14. > :11:18.Nigel Farage if that's true? This is what I don't understand. Campaigns
:11:19. > :11:24.can make unusual bedfellows as we see Polly Toynbee backing Emmanuel
:11:25. > :11:30.Macron, she properly disagrees with his policies, to prevent something.
:11:31. > :11:33.Remainers like me must understand why people voted for Brexit. I feel
:11:34. > :11:38.the way it has shifted, the Remainers had given ground. Not
:11:39. > :11:41.saying we are going to fight the referendum all over again, we're
:11:42. > :11:46.saying we want a relationship with Europe and we will campaign for
:11:47. > :11:50.that. That reaches back to Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who believe
:11:51. > :11:55.in free trade, open trade and David Davis in tomorrow's Times is talking
:11:56. > :12:00.about keeping immigration levels high because of the skills we need.
:12:01. > :12:05.It will lead to a million arguments about whether we should be detaching
:12:06. > :12:09.ourselves or not. The argument isn't over. The nature of our
:12:10. > :12:15.relationship. It isn't clear what those people really think. You say
:12:16. > :12:18.they are interested in openness and working with our European colleagues
:12:19. > :12:24.but they've done nothing to bring about that vision. Isn't the real
:12:25. > :12:30.vision that you as a centralist, Remainer Tory, you are harbouring
:12:31. > :12:36.hopes that the Tory party is essentially an open party, socially
:12:37. > :12:41.liberal, a Macron party, you hope that Theresa May is the British
:12:42. > :12:45.Macron? I think Theresa May can be the British Macron. If I was going
:12:46. > :12:50.to critique the last six months, and I said this in the debate on the
:12:51. > :12:53.Article 50 bill, I hope the government changes its rhetoric and
:12:54. > :13:00.recognises that 48% of people voted to stay in Europe because they have
:13:01. > :13:04.that globalist and open agenda. I think Theresa May has that
:13:05. > :13:08.opportunity. I think the Article 50 bill has given her exactly what she
:13:09. > :13:12.perhaps didn't want, an opportunity to rally people behind the fact that
:13:13. > :13:15.we are leaving Europe and forcing people like me to accept that and
:13:16. > :13:19.say, what is our relationship with Europe? Now is a chance for the
:13:20. > :13:25.government to build beaches to people who have these concerns. In
:13:26. > :13:29.that debate a number of reasonable amendments were put down to the Bill
:13:30. > :13:32.which would shape, make for representations on behalf or people
:13:33. > :13:36.who voted league and remain about the Brexit they wanted and all I can
:13:37. > :13:43.remember is the Tory MPs cheering as it was announced that the bill had
:13:44. > :13:47.passed without amendment. Rhetoric is important but actually, deeds
:13:48. > :13:48.matter too and we're going to face the kind of Brexit that is really
:13:49. > :13:59.damaging to British interests. It used to be said the SDP split the
:14:00. > :14:05.vote on the left and kept the Tories in power. Is it possible to save the
:14:06. > :14:14.Tory Labour duopoly has the most the centrists. -- has split the votes of
:14:15. > :14:18.the centrists. I think all political parties are a coalition because of
:14:19. > :14:22.the system that we have in this country, first past the post and
:14:23. > :14:26.that dictates the coalition. I would not be in the same party as Alison
:14:27. > :14:33.because I do not think the state is the answer to our problems or higher
:14:34. > :14:38.spending or taxes. But the funny thing is I have watched Tories in
:14:39. > :14:43.power over the past six years running down public services and
:14:44. > :14:47.doing real damage to their economic prospects for ordinary people. For
:14:48. > :14:51.most people who think about politics for two minutes a week, those of the
:14:52. > :14:53.things they want us to focus on. Thank you both.
:14:54. > :14:55.There has been a dramatic and under-reported change
:14:56. > :14:58.to the number of new HIV infections among gay men in the UK.
:14:59. > :15:01.The good news is that in 2016, the rate of infection plummeted.
:15:02. > :15:04.It's not because a vaccine was invented, it appears to be down
:15:05. > :15:08.Quickly treating those who are recently diagnosed as HIV
:15:09. > :15:12.positive, stops them being so infectious.
:15:13. > :15:16.And then there is the use of pre-exposure prophylaxis - or PrEP.
:15:17. > :15:19.A drug for treating HIV turns out to be good
:15:20. > :15:27.The moment I was told I had HIV, it was confusing, I suppose.
:15:28. > :15:30.They said to me, your test has come back positive.
:15:31. > :15:31.And so without saying, you are HIV-positive,
:15:32. > :15:34.it took me a couple of moments to really understand
:15:35. > :15:38.I never want anyone to go through what I had
:15:39. > :15:56.I almost died, I was in hospital for a week after my diagnosis.
:15:57. > :16:00.We first looked at the graphs, we thought no, it can't be true.
:16:01. > :16:04.So we went back over all our new HIV diagnoses
:16:05. > :16:07.and each month we looked, it was the same.
:16:08. > :16:12.But then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in London
:16:13. > :16:16.And so we thought, it is true, it's real.
:16:17. > :16:19.There is actually truly a reduction in new HIV diagnoses.
:16:20. > :16:22.And I can't get across to you how excited we were because initially,
:16:23. > :16:47.The most significant thing that's happened in that time
:16:48. > :16:51.is that we found that a lot of people who are really high
:16:52. > :16:55.risk who come to our clinic were taking PrEP.
:16:56. > :16:59.So PrEP means basically giving people who are really high risk
:17:00. > :17:02.for HIV two drugs that are used to treat HIV, to stop
:17:03. > :17:09.And recently, in the last year, 18 months or so, increasing numbers
:17:10. > :17:17.We've discovered this because they come into our clinics
:17:18. > :17:20.and we ask them what medication they are taking and they tell us
:17:21. > :17:36.Now over the course of my lifetime it's going to cost around ?300,000,
:17:37. > :17:42.And so by providing PrEP, then it would have cost the NHS
:17:43. > :17:46.You know, I definitely would have been taking PrEP had it been
:17:47. > :17:58.And yeah, I probably wouldn't have HIV now.
:17:59. > :18:01.So yeah, is there a danger that with PrEP,
:18:02. > :18:07.And there are some studies that have demonstrated this.
:18:08. > :18:11.It's important, though, to recognise that STI rates are high
:18:12. > :18:14.and have been going up for quite a long time.
:18:15. > :18:16.And were going up before PrEP became available.
:18:17. > :18:20.So I don't think we can say with any certainty that PrEP is responsible
:18:21. > :18:37.for the current increases that we are seeing in STI.
:18:38. > :18:43.I don't think that now there is any doubt at all that it works.
:18:44. > :18:46.And I think what now has to happen is that as many people
:18:47. > :18:50.as possible who are at risk, should have access to it.
:18:51. > :18:53.You think that there might be a time, actually reasonably soon,
:18:54. > :18:57.where we won't get any new HIV diagnoses?
:18:58. > :19:03.Well, I can't say how soon, I would hope soon, but I think yes.
:19:04. > :19:06.Our producer James Clayton compiled that report.
:19:07. > :19:10.Matthew Hodson is the Executive Director of aids
:19:11. > :19:12.charity NAM AIDS Map, which shares information
:19:13. > :19:29.Which is more important is it the PrEP which is not yet available on
:19:30. > :19:35.the NHS or the treatment of new cases much earlier so they're less
:19:36. > :19:40.infectious? Both are important, you need to recognise if people are
:19:41. > :19:46.treated they're not an infection risk to their sexual partners and
:19:47. > :19:51.this is important. But we have been rolling out treatment on diagnoses
:19:52. > :19:55.since 2012. And the very dramatic drop we have seen in new HIV
:19:56. > :19:58.infections last year, it feels it cannot just be about that because it
:19:59. > :20:03.must be something new. The thing that has dramatically changed is
:20:04. > :20:08.people accessing PrEP. And they're mostly doing it by self
:20:09. > :20:13.prescription, just getting online. It is not yet available on the NHS
:20:14. > :20:18.so some websites have been set up grassroots activists, and they're
:20:19. > :20:25.putting people in touch with suppliers of generic PrEP drugs.
:20:26. > :20:29.Which incidentally are cheaper than perhaps the NHS would pay.
:20:30. > :20:34.Considerably cheaper than the NHS would be paying. The NHS would say
:20:35. > :20:41.why would we want to buy this drug for people, especially as we would
:20:42. > :20:45.pay full price, when it appears to be working anyway because people
:20:46. > :20:47.will just go and buy it themselves. We have seen that dramatic drop
:20:48. > :20:54.which is fantastic news, really exciting. But it is only reaching
:20:55. > :21:00.those people who are well-informed, and who also have income to say I'm
:21:01. > :21:06.going to spend about ?40 a month and if you considered the number of
:21:07. > :21:09.people quite young gay men for example still being diagnosed with
:21:10. > :21:14.HIV or perhaps ?40 per month is quite a considerable barrier to
:21:15. > :21:18.them. It is exciting because we are turning a corner now and you want to
:21:19. > :21:24.everything we have got at it because we could make a huge difference. You
:21:25. > :21:29.definitely want the NHS to make it available on prescription for those
:21:30. > :21:32.who say they want it? If it could be rolled out to the people who would
:21:33. > :21:37.benefit most then you're going to have the power to end the epidemic.
:21:38. > :21:42.How much does a license people to go off and behave with unsafe sex
:21:43. > :21:47.because they say I have taken PrEP and I do not need it and thus
:21:48. > :21:52.perhaps get hepatitis C or any number of sexually transmitted
:21:53. > :21:56.infections. Condom 's have been a pillar of HIV infection since the
:21:57. > :22:00.1980s and they still play an enormous role obviously. But we now
:22:01. > :22:05.have this opportunity where we can do something which is going to
:22:06. > :22:12.increase our prevention power. And we could use this. The other thing
:22:13. > :22:16.is if people were getting PrEP on the NHS then they would be tied into
:22:17. > :22:20.clinical services and that means they would be regularly screened and
:22:21. > :22:24.if they had an STI there would be diagnosed and treated. It is one of
:22:25. > :22:30.the problems we have is people accessing PrEP in the wild they may
:22:31. > :22:35.not be getting regularly tested for STI 's. I can hear a lot of people
:22:36. > :22:39.saying the NHS is basically does not have enough money, that is the
:22:40. > :22:44.commonly held view, would this be a priority thing to spend money on,
:22:45. > :22:48.basically recreational sex, as opposed to many other things the NHS
:22:49. > :22:54.could spend money on. The kind of money we are looking at, I mean I
:22:55. > :22:58.think figures have been branded a round of about 20 million, and it
:22:59. > :23:06.sounds like a lot of money but if you think it is under 1% of the NHS
:23:07. > :23:10.budget. But also it is cost-effective and with the enormous
:23:11. > :23:13.production we have seen in diagnosis it is more cost-effective even than
:23:14. > :23:18.we thought because it costs a lot to treat someone living with HIV. And
:23:19. > :23:22.unless people are infecting other people because they do not have it,
:23:23. > :23:31.how successful or significant has this been for other categories at
:23:32. > :23:34.risk of HIV, said drug users? I think the big drops we have seen so
:23:35. > :23:38.far have been particularly amongst gay and bisexual men and that is
:23:39. > :23:44.partly because it has been a grassroots activism that has pushed
:23:45. > :23:48.this. I think what we have done is proved that the concept works and I
:23:49. > :23:54.think that increases the urgency of rolling it out to other high risk
:23:55. > :23:55.groups like people from sub-Saharan Africa, trans women and injecting
:23:56. > :23:58.drug users. Thank you for that. And if you have any questions
:23:59. > :24:01.for Matthew we're going to be continuing to talk about this topic
:24:02. > :24:11.on our Facebook Live page You sending your questions and I
:24:12. > :24:15.will read them from my mobile phone and put them to Matthew. That will
:24:16. > :24:21.be straight the programme for about 20 minutes. -- straight after.
:24:22. > :24:27.Today, it's the turn of oncologist Karol Sikora with his take
:24:28. > :24:36.Health care systems everywhere are struggling.
:24:37. > :24:38.Ageing populations, high cost effective novel technology
:24:39. > :24:41.and relentless demand from a Internet savvy patients
:24:42. > :24:46.There are only three ways to pay for health care.
:24:47. > :24:54.But Britain's NHS is mainly tax based.
:24:55. > :24:58.It was a great concept when it began.
:24:59. > :25:00.Free and the point of care, based on medical need,
:25:01. > :25:06.This became the catechism for a religion with more believers
:25:07. > :25:10.Politicians are frightened to meddle, even though
:25:11. > :25:15.It's now cracking up, simply throwing more tax
:25:16. > :25:20.Nearly half of the budget goes to people over 65
:25:21. > :25:24.Younger working people would have to pay massively more for
:25:25. > :25:33.Anything we want is just a click away, yet the NHS is the last
:25:34. > :25:37.It is a monolithic, unmanageable and inefficient system which can't
:25:38. > :25:44.Staff are great, but the system is not.
:25:45. > :25:47.Nowhere in Western Europe are the targets so slack.
:25:48. > :25:52.Two months to start cancer treatment.
:25:53. > :25:59.Let's stop trying to fix it, let's totally change the model.
:26:00. > :26:02.Think of the NHS as a tax -based insurance scheme covering basic
:26:03. > :26:08.costs and allow a plethora of private providers to enter.
:26:09. > :26:11.Fast paced, competitive and innovative, these organisations
:26:12. > :26:12.will breathe fresh life and efficiency into
:26:13. > :26:18.They will provide what society really wants.
:26:19. > :26:21.Let people choose whether they wish to spend more on their health
:26:22. > :26:23.by paying to top up their basic care, or by converting
:26:24. > :26:28.Make no mistake, the NHS is collapsing.
:26:29. > :26:30.Tinkering at the edges just won't work.
:26:31. > :26:48.It needs radical surgery to bring it in line with the 21st-century.
:26:49. > :26:52.As we sit here, peers are still debating the Brexit Bill.
:26:53. > :26:55.Let's take a look at the House of Lords.
:26:56. > :27:00.From here to eternity, the talk goes on.
:27:01. > :27:03.But the expectation is that the peers will not get in the way,
:27:04. > :27:08.and the bill to allow the government to invoke Article 50 will proceed.
:27:09. > :27:11.But the Lords might propose an amendment on the rights of EU
:27:12. > :27:12.citizens currently residing in the UK.
:27:13. > :27:17.Many are known to feel strongly about it -
:27:18. > :27:22.it will probably come up next week, rather than tonight.
:27:23. > :27:25.How should Britain deal with continental residents here?
:27:26. > :27:27.I'm joined by Sunder Katwala, director of the think
:27:28. > :27:28.tank British Future, which was responsible
:27:29. > :27:30.for a cross-party inquiry which looked into securing
:27:31. > :27:35.the status of EEA nationals in the UK.
:27:36. > :27:44.Thank you for joining us. The first issue, what is the cut-off date that
:27:45. > :27:50.allows you to say you were here and not here? What was your
:27:51. > :27:54.recommendation? We can use the date Article 50 is triggered as the date,
:27:55. > :27:57.if you were here before that, exercising free movement rights, you
:27:58. > :28:03.can have a guarantee of your right to settle, but if you arrive after
:28:04. > :28:06.that, your expectations have changed, you will be part of
:28:07. > :28:16.transitional arrangements. There is an ethical commitment. This has
:28:17. > :28:19.legal status whereas Article 50, you get into legal problems if you try
:28:20. > :28:26.and say something happened on the Iraq random. You can use Article 50
:28:27. > :28:36.as the cut-off -- something happened on the referendum. How can I say
:28:37. > :28:40.when someone arrived? If you have been here exercising your free
:28:41. > :28:47.movement rights, then we've got a lot of footprint on you, you will be
:28:48. > :28:50.on the DWP database. One part of the solution, rather than sending up to
:28:51. > :28:55.1 million people back to every previous employer they've had and
:28:56. > :29:00.collecting gas bills, if somebody has been paying tax and you got them
:29:01. > :29:04.on the system, if government systems talk to each other, the 2 million
:29:05. > :29:09.people who have been here for five years, it is a light touch way to
:29:10. > :29:15.clear the easy cases. Sounds like quite a problem. How many permanent
:29:16. > :29:21.residence claims from Europeans is the British immigration department
:29:22. > :29:27.trying to handle, 20,000? 27,000 in the year before. The rate tripled
:29:28. > :29:35.immediately after the referendum. It is 100 times more. Your systems
:29:36. > :29:39.aren't up to it. What are you proposing that you do? If it isn't
:29:40. > :29:47.up to it, that implies you could add another 10%, another few office
:29:48. > :29:51.blocks. We know that immigration systems haven't worked well in the
:29:52. > :29:57.past, the idea that every European should send in their passport isn't
:29:58. > :30:00.exactly the best start to Brexit. We've got some local nationality
:30:01. > :30:04.checking services where if you're making their passport application
:30:05. > :30:07.you can go with your documents, they can look at the system and they can
:30:08. > :30:11.send you home to get something if you haven't got it. That could be
:30:12. > :30:15.the green light to the easy cases and let the Home Office deal with
:30:16. > :30:18.the complicated cases. There could be complicated and, if we have sent
:30:19. > :30:23.people to prison then we would exclude those people. It's up to the
:30:24. > :30:29.government to identify the people they have sent to prison and if they
:30:30. > :30:35.get it wrong they will be in trouble. When you guys looked at
:30:36. > :30:38.this was it your view that only people who speak English should be
:30:39. > :30:44.allowed to remain, that some kind of test should be applied? I think the
:30:45. > :30:49.character and criminal record status we have for settlement should stay.
:30:50. > :30:52.The English language citizenship test, if you are a European national
:30:53. > :30:58.who was to become a citizen, jump through the same hoops, but we are
:30:59. > :31:03.trying to guarantee the same rights you had before the referendum. Let's
:31:04. > :31:09.suppose that I'm Polish and have been sending money back and in 2018,
:31:10. > :31:14.2019I think I don't want to go back, I want to bring them over here? That
:31:15. > :31:20.would mean a lot of extra people coming in after Article 50 but
:31:21. > :31:24.observing the rights of a person who is already here. It gets
:31:25. > :31:28.complicated. It does to a certain extent because there are very few
:31:29. > :31:32.areas where European rights have superior rights to British citizens,
:31:33. > :31:36.they don't have the income threshold if they want to marry someone. We
:31:37. > :31:40.thought the fair thing to do was to allow those rights to exist for a
:31:41. > :31:46.five-year phasing in period and then to phase them out so everyone is on
:31:47. > :31:49.the same status. The principle is that people who were already here
:31:50. > :31:54.and not expecting the change should have the same status that they have
:31:55. > :32:01.now, that is something that all parties agreed to. Everyone agrees
:32:02. > :32:05.that is the right thing to do. Four people including those abroad are
:32:06. > :32:06.still waiting to hear that is what we will organise with the European
:32:07. > :32:09.Union. Thank you for joining us. Life is sometimes brutal as we know,
:32:10. > :32:12.but it is turning out particularly so for the wonders of brutalist
:32:13. > :32:14.architecture in this country. Tower blocks and other
:32:15. > :32:16.of these concrete structures For councils, it seems
:32:17. > :32:21.easier to remove them And developers follow on behind,
:32:22. > :32:25.putting up flats for private buyers. But all this is happening just
:32:26. > :32:28.as many are finally appreciating Our Culture Editor,
:32:29. > :32:32.Stephen Smith reports. These buildings have
:32:33. > :32:54.now reached a certain need to be renovated, or sometimes
:32:55. > :33:02.it is cheaper to knock them down. It was a recurring
:33:03. > :33:14.rhetorical trope after the The people are the
:33:15. > :33:19.greatest capital that Often the solution
:33:20. > :33:24.looked a bit like this. The tower block,
:33:25. > :33:26.the high-rise with its It's like being in
:33:27. > :33:34.heaven up here because We've had so many
:33:35. > :33:39.good friends up here. And these places are
:33:40. > :33:43.just lovely for us. What excites me about them is that
:33:44. > :33:47.they were designed with the real kind of effort going into what makes
:33:48. > :33:50.the place good to live, what makes it a really pleasant
:33:51. > :33:52.place to grow up, to know, to live an urban life
:33:53. > :34:01.where you're not cut off from your Where you bump into people,
:34:02. > :34:05.where you have quick and easy access to transport
:34:06. > :34:10.and to shops. But it wasn't long before the first
:34:11. > :34:13.wrinkles appeared in all that I mean in winter, his
:34:14. > :34:30.quilt is wet through. I'm going to put him in with us
:34:31. > :34:33.again because his bedroom is Come and help kill
:34:34. > :34:44.the dampness dragon! Justly or otherwise,
:34:45. > :34:48.some made a link between the concrete jungle
:34:49. > :34:59.and the law of the jungle. The Thamesmead estate was a backdrop
:35:00. > :35:04.to clockwork Orange, as the writers saw something dystopian in the
:35:05. > :35:11.architecture. Couldn't get away with it! In get Carter, Michael Caine
:35:12. > :35:16.worked off his anger in the Trinity Square shopping centre in Gateshead.
:35:17. > :35:25.Don't look for it now, it isn't there any more.
:35:26. > :35:32.Feel free to leave the room if you think the term iconic is overused
:35:33. > :35:37.but that's what they call this tower in west London which was completed
:35:38. > :35:43.in 1972 and is now a great two listed building. Some housing
:35:44. > :35:46.campaigners are not impressed. The problem pretty immediately was that
:35:47. > :35:50.the management costs were sky-high to make it work, lifts were being
:35:51. > :35:54.vandalised, it became known as the Tower of Terror because of the high
:35:55. > :36:03.risks of rape in the stairwell. That has been managed better. The problem
:36:04. > :36:06.with a lot but not all of the post-war architecture is that they
:36:07. > :36:13.were cutting across 2000 years of sitting making -- City making and
:36:14. > :36:18.organic knowledge of how people want to live and where people are happy
:36:19. > :36:22.and power. In the last 20, 30 years we've started being able to research
:36:23. > :36:26.that thanks to big data and a greater capacity to understand where
:36:27. > :36:32.people work. What we've learnt is that you tend to know your
:36:33. > :36:47.neighbours less well, you have less trusting relationships with them.
:36:48. > :36:54.The architects of the Alexandra Road estate in North London apparently
:36:55. > :37:01.modelled it on the sinuous curves of the Georgian terraces of Bath.
:37:02. > :37:06.What's it like to live here? We have decent people, its well-kept,
:37:07. > :37:11.decent. You don't mind the concrete? No, I don't, I love it. The
:37:12. > :37:19.concrete, it is an acquired taste, I'd say. But it's not horrible,
:37:20. > :37:25.actually, it's quite comfortable and inside, the spaces are marvellous.
:37:26. > :37:33.Would you fancy one of these? I don't know, too many windows for me.
:37:34. > :37:37.A love to keep clean. Absolutely. As if to prove that appreciation for
:37:38. > :37:40.brutalism is growing in some quarters it was recently adorned by
:37:41. > :37:52.Tom Hiddleston's own desirable superstructure. I'm so sorry! I'll
:37:53. > :38:00.survive. I don't doubt it. Your excellent specimen. I thought you
:38:01. > :38:04.were empty. I've just moved in. It's all too late to save this estate in
:38:05. > :38:10.east London, destined for the Iraq's ball. Most of the critics, most of
:38:11. > :38:17.the strongest critics of post-war architecture are people who don't
:38:18. > :38:24.live in it. Buildings like this can be a wonderful place to live. Places
:38:25. > :38:29.that are perceived as being attached to post-war architecture is really
:38:30. > :38:35.the disparity between the grand utopian aspirations and the reality
:38:36. > :38:36.which can never meet the future that was imagined for many of these
:38:37. > :38:41.buildings. Tomorrow we will be in Stoke ahead
:38:42. > :38:51.of the by-election. Don't forget I'll be on Facebook
:38:52. > :38:54.Live in a couple of minutes taking your questions for our guest
:38:55. > :38:56.on falling HIV rates. We leave you with news that BBC1
:38:57. > :39:03.is to re-examine the sound mixing on their new Sunday night drama
:39:04. > :39:05.SS-GB, after the 90% of the population with cheap TVs
:39:06. > :39:07.complained they couldn't Those passes you took are just
:39:08. > :39:15.about the most valuable piece of paper a foreigner
:39:16. > :39:17.can be given. Anyway as a favour to our sister
:39:18. > :39:27.channel, we've arranged to have the show redubbed for them -
:39:28. > :39:30.by Radio 4 Newsreaders Zeb Soames Those passes you took are just
:39:31. > :39:38.about the most valuable piece of paper a foreigner
:39:39. > :39:40.can be given. That's what we are as far as you're
:39:41. > :39:46.concerned, foreigners. The Germans are the ones
:39:47. > :39:48.with the right to be here, and we are the intruders
:39:49. > :39:51.who have to bow and bloody scrape. Get your hands off me,
:39:52. > :39:56.you bloody Gestapo bastard.