:00:00. > :00:08.A city that has found itself in the national spotlight
:00:09. > :00:17.in the last few weeks thanks to a local by-election tomorrow.
:00:18. > :00:23.With an audience, politicians and experts, we are looking at the
:00:24. > :00:25.relationship between government in London, Stoke and the great
:00:26. > :00:31.industrial towns and cities elsewhere. Nobody has ever knocked
:00:32. > :00:44.on my door during the election time, ever.
:00:45. > :00:57.36000 and 27. People are frightened, you can tell. They are. Do you see
:00:58. > :01:02.Ukip as a party of the left, like Labour? Yes, far left. Not a
:01:03. > :01:13.backwater, but I have heard said of Stoke.
:01:14. > :01:21.They are so prosperous in London, I think they think we are a lot of
:01:22. > :01:27.idiots or something like that. If I could do that today, I would. It was
:01:28. > :01:33.hard work. But everybody was happy. In those days, yes. I want people to
:01:34. > :01:40.have hope and they have not got any help. -- hope.
:01:41. > :01:43.Our programme comes from Stoke this evening.
:01:44. > :01:46.In fact, we're in the Stoke Central constituency that votes tomorrow.
:01:47. > :01:51.We're at the beautiful Regent Theatre, replete
:01:52. > :01:54.with a Wedgewood style cupola - a reference to the designs
:01:55. > :01:56.of Josiah Wedgewood, who made this area so famous.
:01:57. > :01:59.He, with many others, made the Potteries a global centre
:02:00. > :02:01.of ceramic and tableware manufacture.
:02:02. > :02:06.There was also a sizeable steel industry, by the way,
:02:07. > :02:14.Many of the manufacturing jobs have gone and service and distribution
:02:15. > :02:17.jobs have replaced them, not to everybody's satisfaction.
:02:18. > :02:19.And that means this by-election has made this
:02:20. > :02:24.There is a feeling that people here have fallen out
:02:25. > :02:28.with the governing classes of all parties.
:02:29. > :02:31.When Stoke voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, many said it was out
:02:32. > :02:33.of a sense that things needed to change.
:02:34. > :02:39.We're up on stage with a local audience.
:02:40. > :02:44.Not as big an audience, I'm afraid, as the stalls below us would hold.
:02:45. > :02:47.But we will be hearing from this group in a moment and over
:02:48. > :02:50.And we also have a panel of politicians and
:02:51. > :02:57.I want to start with the Stoke perspective on politics.
:02:58. > :03:03.Not about the by-election, but national politics.
:03:04. > :03:10.Straight to the audience. A lot of people say what they think you think
:03:11. > :03:14.Sue will ask you what you think. What do you think politics in
:03:15. > :03:23.Westminster has got right or wrong over the last two decades? Any
:03:24. > :03:27.views? I think the politicians are out of touch with people and
:03:28. > :03:31.reality, they don't go around enough to see what damage they are doing
:03:32. > :03:36.with their decisions at Westminster. They are completely out of touch
:03:37. > :03:43.with reality. Give me an example. Something that is concrete. They
:03:44. > :03:48.were spending ?50 billion on HS2, which nobody wants, digging up the
:03:49. > :03:54.countryside and not in consultation with the electorate. It doesn't come
:03:55. > :04:02.out of their back pocket and we have to pay for it. Any other views on
:04:03. > :04:13.how Westminster has been doing? I will jump around. Madam? Obviously,
:04:14. > :04:19.Parliament has become about party bashing rather than debate and
:04:20. > :04:22.politicians from different parties are not represented. If you look at
:04:23. > :04:27.the government, they were not elected by a majority of the
:04:28. > :04:32.country, more people did not vote conservative than did so. Do you
:04:33. > :04:38.support proportional representation? Yes, that would be the democratic
:04:39. > :04:48.way. How many of you are basically fed up with politics? Yes to that?
:04:49. > :04:53.How many say you are not fed up with politics? Quite a divide but most of
:04:54. > :04:59.you are not fed up because there is a sense of disconnect. Somebody who
:05:00. > :05:13.said they were not fed up? I am fed up. Just saying! Madam? Near the
:05:14. > :05:18.back. What do you think, how connected is Westminster? Understand
:05:19. > :05:22.the problems of cities like Stoke which have seen enormous changes in
:05:23. > :05:26.the economy? Politicians are completely disconnected with the
:05:27. > :05:29.people, I believe in politics and the political system, we have one of
:05:30. > :05:34.the Best democracies in the world but I think there is a huge
:05:35. > :05:39.disconnect, they have no idea of what it is like outside London and
:05:40. > :05:44.it sounds weird for me, I am a Londoner, but I have been here since
:05:45. > :05:48.the 1980s and what is going on in Stoke, the politicians and MPs just
:05:49. > :05:52.do not seem to be able to take that back to London and say what people
:05:53. > :06:00.want. Who champions Stoke? Who do you look to? Local authorities?
:06:01. > :06:08.Someone from Stoke in the Houses of Parliament? Rather than Robbie
:06:09. > :06:15.Williams? I think local MPs are very good at trying to talk to the local
:06:16. > :06:23.communities but it is not getting back and bringing in funding to the
:06:24. > :06:24.city, it is not happening. We will come back to you through the
:06:25. > :06:26.programme. Before we go to the national
:06:27. > :06:28.politicians, we're going to head out into town and catch up
:06:29. > :06:30.on the by-election. Stoke Central has been a Labour seat
:06:31. > :06:33.since it was invented decades ago. UKIP came second in the general
:06:34. > :06:37.election, though, and yet it is the Conservatives who are way
:06:38. > :06:43.ahead in the national opinion polls. A lot of eyes are focused on this
:06:44. > :06:45.one - including those of our own John Sweeney,
:06:46. > :06:59.who's been watching the campaign. Stoke-on-Trent, once
:07:00. > :07:03.the home of pits and pots, Yet it has become
:07:04. > :07:08.a by-election crucible It is here where Ukip
:07:09. > :07:15.post-Brexit has been making big efforts to win a foothold
:07:16. > :07:20.in Labour's angry heartlands. The seat has been Labour's
:07:21. > :07:24.for three generations, yet Jeremy Corbyn has admitted
:07:25. > :07:28.it is on a knife edge. If Labour loses places like Stoke,
:07:29. > :07:32.where a donkey with a red rosette could once win comfortably,
:07:33. > :07:37.then Corbyn is in dire trouble. In Stoke, particularly,
:07:38. > :07:39.you have three parties, 5000 votes behind them,
:07:40. > :07:46.in equal second place in 2015, The common assumption is this
:07:47. > :07:52.is an area where Ukip should do better, it is not natural territory
:07:53. > :07:54.for the Conservatives. But on the other hand, in national
:07:55. > :07:58.polling since the referendum, we have seen the Conservatives
:07:59. > :08:00.gaining a big chunk of vote, much of it perhaps coming from Ukip
:08:01. > :08:03.voters who are quite happy with Theresa May's
:08:04. > :08:07.hard Brexit approach. If that gets reflected in Stoke, it
:08:08. > :08:10.could become a race between Labour But then Labour have to think
:08:11. > :08:13.about their Remain flank, Is those leack across to
:08:14. > :08:23.the Liberal Democrats, something that has been happening
:08:24. > :08:25.quite consistently in local by-elections, it also happened
:08:26. > :08:29.famously in the Richmond by-election that they took, then,
:08:30. > :08:32.all of a sudden, you have four But as polling day draws nigh,
:08:33. > :08:38.this by-election here in Stoke is becoming not just
:08:39. > :08:41.about whether Brexit is the new fault line in British
:08:42. > :08:46.politics or Labour's troubles, but more about whether Ukip's Paul
:08:47. > :08:48.Nuttall has been telling the truth about something that happened
:08:49. > :08:54.in his past. The man who now fills Nigel Farage's
:08:55. > :08:57.brogues as Ukip leader believes his party has taken over
:08:58. > :09:00.from Labour as the voice This place needs to be put
:09:01. > :09:08.on the political map. It needs more investment
:09:09. > :09:10.into the constituency. I believe when I stand up
:09:11. > :09:13.in the House of Commons And if they have a national
:09:14. > :09:16.political figure, we can ensure that more money comes up
:09:17. > :09:23.to Stoke-on-Trent Central. But it is the Hillsborough tragedy
:09:24. > :09:26.that has dogged Nuttall throughout the campaign,
:09:27. > :09:29.with him facing allegations that he had not been
:09:30. > :09:32.at the ground at all. Yes, I was 12 and
:09:33. > :09:37.a half years of age. I was there with my family
:09:38. > :09:40.and we were in the upper tier It was something I have very
:09:41. > :09:47.rarely spoken about. Whether people were dead at that
:09:48. > :09:59.point, I don't know. There were certainly people
:10:00. > :10:01.teeming onto the pitch. I remember my dad, and thankfully,
:10:02. > :10:03.my dad quickly realised And we left the stadium,
:10:04. > :10:09.we were one of the first out. Why hasn't he given a statement
:10:10. > :10:13.on public so we can hear it We actually gave the newspaper
:10:14. > :10:18.witness statements, people Look, my dad and my family,
:10:19. > :10:25.they are private individuals, OK? This isn't a court of law
:10:26. > :10:29.where you are innocent You are trying to
:10:30. > :10:33.become the MP here. And therefore, you have to go out
:10:34. > :10:36.and prove your innocence. Well, look, I think the fact that
:10:37. > :10:40.I have been prepared to go to Operation Resolve and give
:10:41. > :10:42.a witness statement I have told them that I am
:10:43. > :10:46.prepared to stand up In normal times, Labour's Gareth
:10:47. > :10:51.Snell should be a shoo-in The Labour Party is the party that
:10:52. > :11:02.will protect the NHS. It will give the funding
:11:03. > :11:05.that our hospitals and our social Because we are the party that
:11:06. > :11:09.will make Brexit work Stoke-on-Trent needs an MP
:11:10. > :11:16.who is going to go to Westminster and work for the people
:11:17. > :11:18.of Stoke-on-Trent, not But not like, say,
:11:19. > :11:26.Alfred Lord Tennyson. "Soft Brexit, hard Brexit,
:11:27. > :11:28.massive pile of sh*t. Sloppy Brexit, messy
:11:29. > :11:30.Brexit, quit, quit, quit. For the fact that she was not
:11:31. > :11:36.delivering a Brexit And after four months after telling
:11:37. > :11:40.us that there was a plan, She was vacillating,
:11:41. > :11:43.she was dithering, and that was damaging
:11:44. > :11:45.the local industry. There is going to be Brexit.
:11:46. > :11:54.You support that? Aren't you turning on a sixpence
:11:55. > :11:59.into what you yourself said, in September, is a massive
:12:00. > :12:01.pile of sh*t? No, what I said in September
:12:02. > :12:04.was the fact that the Prime Minister was not delivering the plan,
:12:05. > :12:07.Article 50 has now been... And what I will say is that Brexit
:12:08. > :12:11.is not the end of something, Stoke politics, for the best part
:12:12. > :12:15.of 20 years, has featured a fairly large disaffected,
:12:16. > :12:18.perhaps anti-politics vote, it has gone in some elections
:12:19. > :12:22.to independence, this was an area that was also an area of strength
:12:23. > :12:24.for the BNP. And Ukip have since surged
:12:25. > :12:27.on the back of that sentiment. So there is a long-running sense
:12:28. > :12:30.of the system is not working for us and we want to change
:12:31. > :12:35.it type sentiment. The Liberal Democrats
:12:36. > :12:39.came fifth in 2015. But they are pushing
:12:40. > :12:42.hard on being the only Mainly it is the NHS and secondly,
:12:43. > :12:49.we also talk about the Brexit issue. Especially, when I talk to them
:12:50. > :12:52.that we want people to have another say on the final deal when it comes
:12:53. > :12:58.to leaving the European Union. And people listen to it
:12:59. > :13:01.and I think there is quite I am speaking to people
:13:02. > :13:06.on the doorsteps. The Greens think they could
:13:07. > :13:07.boost their showing We're going to be working
:13:08. > :13:15.in the community, we're going to be talking about the things that matter
:13:16. > :13:17.in their daily lives. Like getting gridlock
:13:18. > :13:19.off of the roads. Unfortunately, some
:13:20. > :13:23.national parties... Brexit is important to people
:13:24. > :13:27.but I think quality-of-life in this area and how we can improve things,
:13:28. > :13:30.I know we can show this area to the world, which is the great
:13:31. > :13:33.thing this by-election does. The Tories are riding
:13:34. > :13:35.extraordinarily high Lots of people in this area
:13:36. > :13:45.feel let down by Labour, that Labour doesn't represent
:13:46. > :13:48.them any more. And also, people who were thinking
:13:49. > :13:53.about voting Ukip are now thinking about the Conservatives
:13:54. > :13:57.because we are the only ones with a clear plan
:13:58. > :14:00.to deliver Brexit. If Labour win and Ukip lose here,
:14:01. > :14:03.maybe you could see it as a moment when the rising tide of populism
:14:04. > :14:06.which has been surging across the Western world
:14:07. > :14:17.is beginning to run out of energy. A Labour victory would be parlayed
:14:18. > :14:20.by Team Corbyn as a great success. And that, in a safe seat like Stoke,
:14:21. > :14:23.just tells you how desperate things The word is that
:14:24. > :14:35.turnout will be low. But tomorrow, the attention
:14:36. > :14:37.of the British political establishment and wider yet will be
:14:38. > :14:39.on this lovely old town There are ten candidates standing
:14:40. > :14:55.in the Stoke Central by-election, And you can see the list
:14:56. > :15:01.on the politics section We have both here in
:15:02. > :15:10.Regent Theatre in Stoke. Three leading politicians,
:15:11. > :15:12.Peter Whittle is the deputy leader of Ukip, and group leader
:15:13. > :15:15.on the London Assembly. Mark Harper is the Conservative MP
:15:16. > :15:18.for the Forest of Dean, he's a former Chief Whip
:15:19. > :15:20.and was an Immigration Minister Also, for Labour we have
:15:21. > :15:28.Debbie Abrahams, who is the Shadow Work and Pensions
:15:29. > :15:30.Secretary. And also with us here
:15:31. > :15:33.is Geoff Evans, who was brought up here, worked in the pottery
:15:34. > :15:35.industry, and is now a professor at Oxford University, specialising
:15:36. > :15:54.in the sociology of politics. Thank you for coming. Mark Harper,
:15:55. > :16:04.your party is in government. DUP guilty to big, old traditional
:16:05. > :16:10.industrial towns being neglected by Westminster -- do you plead guilty.
:16:11. > :16:15.I think Theresa May made it quite clear, and audience forgive me for
:16:16. > :16:18.using a slogan, but a country that works for everyone. She's made it
:16:19. > :16:21.clear one of the lessons she took from the Brexit decision was that
:16:22. > :16:25.there were parts of the country that felt they were left behind. And one
:16:26. > :16:29.of the things the government should do is look at making sure parts of
:16:30. > :16:31.the country where traditional industries have disappeared,
:16:32. > :16:42.actually we thought about how to make sure we got things like
:16:43. > :16:48.motoring, getting that industry back here. I think she recognises that
:16:49. > :16:52.and that's one of the things she wants to deliver. There was an
:16:53. > :16:57.industrial green paper, can you name me one thing in that but we haven't
:16:58. > :17:02.tried before? I think actually the floor in what you've just said is
:17:03. > :17:06.that it wasn't one thing, it's a strategy. Just name one thing. If
:17:07. > :17:10.there's a whole strategy, just name one thing. Part of it is about the
:17:11. > :17:14.government looking at the industries Britain thinks it will be successful
:17:15. > :17:19.in, thinking about how it can help them. If you take the car industry
:17:20. > :17:23.for example, some of the investment in battery technology... There was
:17:24. > :17:27.no money in the green paper, the government didn't say it is
:17:28. > :17:31.investing in battery technology. I'm asking for one thing in the
:17:32. > :17:35.industrial strategy which might affect industry in Stoke. If I had
:17:36. > :17:42.to pick one thing it would be about making sure that we did a better job
:17:43. > :17:46.of investing in skills. We spent the last three decades talking about
:17:47. > :17:52.investing in skills. We've had loads of reforms of the skills agenda. The
:17:53. > :17:55.question is, we've done a lot of reform, the question is has it been
:17:56. > :18:01.as successful as it should be. Why will it be another reform, be better
:18:02. > :18:04.than the last government did, or the one that your government did in the
:18:05. > :18:08.1990s? One of the things we've done with the apprenticeship levy and
:18:09. > :18:11.things like that is making sure you get businesses to invest in the
:18:12. > :18:17.areas they need to, to be successful. One of the things I
:18:18. > :18:21.think, areas of the country, I think it was in your introduction, where
:18:22. > :18:24.we had trait in macro changes in trade and globalisation, there are
:18:25. > :18:28.parts of the country and people that haven't kept up with the changes and
:18:29. > :18:32.haven't therefore been able to be as successful as they should have been.
:18:33. > :18:35.I think that's what the industrial strategy and what the Prime Minister
:18:36. > :18:41.is intending to do. That's why Stoke needs a strong voice tomorrow. I
:18:42. > :18:45.can't say I'm clear about what the industrial strategy is. Let me that
:18:46. > :18:49.the same question, DUP guilty to having overlooked or neglected the
:18:50. > :18:52.interests of some of these big Northern, Midlands, towns and
:18:53. > :18:57.cities, particularly the ones that have had big industrial change?
:18:58. > :19:03.Clearly, the woman who commented at the beginning that she feels
:19:04. > :19:07.alienated, that there has been the divide, we can't ignore that. That's
:19:08. > :19:14.how people feel. And yes, the figures also bear that out, in terms
:19:15. > :19:21.of the investment, the labour market inequalities. There are parts of
:19:22. > :19:27.Stoke that doing really poorly in terms of unemployment sickness. What
:19:28. > :19:31.happened, you admitted you got it wrong, where usage used by the banks
:19:32. > :19:39.in London and the tax they pay? What was it? I'm not in London, I live
:19:40. > :19:43.around my constituency. I was a public health consultant before I
:19:44. > :19:47.became an MP. One of the reasons I became active was I care
:19:48. > :19:52.passionately about the NHS. Other people have mentioned this as well.
:19:53. > :19:58.Perhaps it's a bit in terms of why people get into politics. The
:19:59. > :20:03.question wasn't why have Westminster politicians, you say they haven't
:20:04. > :20:08.neglected Stoke... Why has politics neglected Stoke? I think it is
:20:09. > :20:13.partly about investment but it's also about how we have done politics
:20:14. > :20:21.for a long while now. If you look at how politics involves over the 20th
:20:22. > :20:29.century around community around being based in York community, and
:20:30. > :20:32.politicians being part of the community, taking on board the
:20:33. > :20:37.issues, recognising them and doing something about it, that's what
:20:38. > :20:42.we've got to change. I call it the community development type of
:20:43. > :20:45.approach to politics, where we engage and involve... We are public
:20:46. > :20:51.servants, we reflect and represent the views of our constituents, and
:20:52. > :20:55.part of our communities. The points have been made about democracy,
:20:56. > :21:00.absolutely. That's fundamental to what we should be about as
:21:01. > :21:04.politicians. You've heard about an industrial strategy, you've heard
:21:05. > :21:11.about and out their politics from Debbie Abrahams. Are you satisfied,
:21:12. > :21:16.dissatisfied with what you've heard? I think part of the problem is we
:21:17. > :21:20.get forgotten as a city. We've fallen between the north and the
:21:21. > :21:25.north-west, the Midlands, we slipped in between the cracks. Because we've
:21:26. > :21:30.had three macro Labour MPs for decades, the Conservatives don't
:21:31. > :21:33.they can win until recently and traditionally Labour take the votes
:21:34. > :21:38.for granted. There's no incentive for politicians in London to bother
:21:39. > :21:47.with cities like Stoke. If you're a marginal seat they give you more and
:21:48. > :21:52.attention. Both those politicians gave very fluent answers, but like
:21:53. > :21:59.you say, they didn't really answer the core question. Stoke has always
:22:00. > :22:07.been a Labour seat. Maybe it will be a good thing if they voted a bit
:22:08. > :22:11.differently tomorrow and a shot in the arm and Ukip got in, maybe it
:22:12. > :22:19.would give a bit more attention to Stoke. Someone else had their hand
:22:20. > :22:23.up? Is all well and good investing in skills, but there's nothing in
:22:24. > :22:29.the local area that warrants them. The biggest industries are call
:22:30. > :22:35.centres, care homes and distribution centres, they aren't skilled
:22:36. > :22:40.employment. Peter Whittle, we've heard, and I know this from other
:22:41. > :22:44.pieces we've run on Newsnight, we've always voted Labour, they've taken
:22:45. > :22:50.us for granted, that is your pitch hair. But you alternative
:22:51. > :22:54.government? You're a UK Independence party, you're about Brexit and
:22:55. > :22:59.you've got Brexit, what is the point of Ukip now? We aren't just about
:23:00. > :23:03.Brexit any more. Obviously Brexit has happened in terms of a
:23:04. > :23:10.referendum, but the fact is it's far from happened yet. It's very, very
:23:11. > :23:12.instructive because you're talking about the difference between
:23:13. > :23:16.Westminster and the rest of the country. The rest of the country are
:23:17. > :23:23.looking on, and have been looking on at Westminster thinking, what the
:23:24. > :23:28.hell is going on? If you're a party of government, what would you do for
:23:29. > :23:34.Stoke? And towns and cities like Stoke? First of all, I completely
:23:35. > :23:38.agree that Westminster is totally out of touch. You're sounding like
:23:39. > :23:41.an old-style politician. I said what would you do, and you immediately
:23:42. > :23:48.said the other politicians are no good. We've accepted people feel let
:23:49. > :23:52.down by politicians. First of all, huge problems with infrastructure in
:23:53. > :23:57.Stoke, huge problems in social housing. Labour has been in for 50
:23:58. > :24:02.years, there hasn't been one single new council house built in 30 years,
:24:03. > :24:07.can you believe that? We would like a golden age of council housing. I'm
:24:08. > :24:12.a great believer, and we are as a party, in social housing. Because
:24:13. > :24:16.basically, it helps build solid communities, my grandparents were in
:24:17. > :24:23.council housing. It means people are not constantly fighting to get on
:24:24. > :24:28.the ladder. They can actually build a real community. Debbie Abrahams,
:24:29. > :24:32.that sounds like what should be able Labour policy, with respect. What
:24:33. > :24:38.happened there? It is a Labour policy. You were in government all
:24:39. > :24:43.those years. It's a fair point and we didn't get everything right. You
:24:44. > :24:49.haven't built any houses in Stoke for 30 years. I can't defend that,
:24:50. > :24:56.we should have done. We now know we've got the lowest level of social
:24:57. > :25:02.housing building since the 1920s. We do need it. It's absolutely key. For
:25:03. > :25:07.our young people to have a future. We've got generation rent, haven't
:25:08. > :25:11.we. They need to feel secure, being able to afford to invest in their
:25:12. > :25:15.communities... You would be building more council houses just as Ukip
:25:16. > :25:19.would? Why is the government not doing that, it's talked about
:25:20. > :25:24.building more houses but a lot of people think it should be council
:25:25. > :25:27.housing. The housing White Paper we published a couple of weeks ago
:25:28. > :25:31.covered all of the types of tenure. It talked about people being able to
:25:32. > :25:35.buy but it also talked about people being able to rent, both social
:25:36. > :25:40.housing and in the private rented sector. It looked at all of them and
:25:41. > :25:44.the house-building numbers now, as the housing minister said, people
:25:45. > :25:51.can't live in planning permissions, and the number of houses built last
:25:52. > :25:54.year was 190,000, so we are on track to build the 1 million houses over
:25:55. > :25:59.the parliament. I think we do have a plan to deliver it. The whole
:26:00. > :26:05.political establishment has been completely neglectful of this. Just
:26:06. > :26:09.go around any part of Stoke or the six cities of Stoke, or any of the
:26:10. > :26:12.cities we are talking about. There is absolutely no question about it,
:26:13. > :26:18.that when all those council houses were sold off, the money was simply
:26:19. > :26:21.frittered away. It should have been kept and reinvested in new housing.
:26:22. > :26:27.It's exactly what we should be doing now. We are believers in the
:26:28. > :26:31.cultural life of the country is just as important as the economic one.
:26:32. > :26:36.That's when things like social housing are so important. Jeff
:26:37. > :26:40.Evans, you have documented quite a lot of political alienation in some
:26:41. > :26:44.areas of the country from what is going on at Westminster. Do you
:26:45. > :26:49.think it's because people have found better things to do and they are
:26:50. > :26:52.bored of politics, or do you blame the politicians? I blame the
:26:53. > :26:57.politicians, very much so. For a long time people have ignored class
:26:58. > :27:04.divisions, they pretended they either don't matter any more... What
:27:05. > :27:10.is actually changing isn't the class divisions in our society but what
:27:11. > :27:14.politicians offer. I have to put the blame on Labour on this one, because
:27:15. > :27:19.during the 90s in particular Labour were so keen to appeal to the
:27:20. > :27:27.affluent middle class electoral base, they distance as they possibly
:27:28. > :27:31.could. Basically there are no working-class people as MPs any
:27:32. > :27:35.more. The rhetoric adopted by Labour, by Tony Blair, was very much
:27:36. > :27:42.chosen to be acceptable to the Metropolitan London middle classes
:27:43. > :27:48.and similar travellers. People find it hard to believe in politicians
:27:49. > :27:56.who don't share any point of social contact. They've got alien accents,
:27:57. > :27:59.Labour is increasingly Oxbridge, it doesn't have any trade union intake
:28:00. > :28:04.in terms of working-class people. You've got the odd Remain Campaign
:28:05. > :28:11.alike Alan Johnson, he's not really there any more. They've left their
:28:12. > :28:16.social connection. Labour more than the Tories on this. How many of you
:28:17. > :28:23.are Labour voters? We balance the panel to some extent. Do any of you
:28:24. > :28:34.agree with what Jeff is saying about the party you are going to support?
:28:35. > :28:39.Do you agree with what he has said? I think they are all London
:28:40. > :28:47.Metropolitan. He is bang on. There's no working-class MPs any more. I
:28:48. > :28:54.think they have deserted the working class, Labour. Debbie Abrahams, that
:28:55. > :28:59.is a feeling and a sentiment, you recognise it? That can't be ignored.
:29:00. > :29:04.Gareth is a local lad, he's worked in the community. I think there is,
:29:05. > :29:09.we are doing politics differently. We didn't get it all right, in spite
:29:10. > :29:14.of much good stuff that we did, and we haven't talked about the health
:29:15. > :29:20.service. I'd like to know Ukip's position on that, which is a real
:29:21. > :29:24.local issue. It's absolutely clear. It's not absolutely clear at all. I
:29:25. > :29:30.was in a by-election with Paul Nuttall when he said he wanted to
:29:31. > :29:34.privatise the NHS. This is absolutely untrue. The most
:29:35. > :29:39.important thing is that my party, Ukip, has always stood on a platform
:29:40. > :29:41.of celebrating the NHS and believing it should be free at the point of
:29:42. > :29:52.delivery. It was the by-election I was elected
:29:53. > :29:59.to in 2011. The fact is that Paul Nuttall said some things about
:30:00. > :30:04.certain areas of the NHS about procurement, about five years ago,
:30:05. > :30:09.and he has said I change my mind. The important thing, whether he
:30:10. > :30:15.changes his mind or not, is that Ukip manifesto in 2015 was
:30:16. > :30:21.absolutely clear, we Remain clear, we believe... In the national Health
:30:22. > :30:26.Service, not international. We will get the other experts back. We have
:30:27. > :30:28.a lot to get through. I will thank the panel.
:30:29. > :30:30.Let's pause the conversation for a moment.
:30:31. > :30:33.In a few minutes we'll see if there are any specific ideas
:30:34. > :30:35.for bringing extra life to the economy here.
:30:36. > :30:38.But first, Katie Razzall has been hearing about life here,
:30:39. > :30:40.as it was, and some hope it might be.
:30:41. > :30:42.Time to pause and reflect now, Katie Razzall has been hearing
:30:43. > :30:44.about life in Stoke, as it was, and how
:30:45. > :30:58.The people of Stoke need a voice from our politicians.
:30:59. > :31:08.I want people to have hope, and they haven't got hope.
:31:09. > :31:14.People have felt forgotten and left behind.
:31:15. > :31:17.We feel like we are at a crossroads, but I feel that it's an opportunity
:31:18. > :31:34.to change the way that people see Stoke.
:31:35. > :31:36.If the overwhelming out vote put Stoke on the political map,
:31:37. > :31:39.this by-election will send another message about what people here want
:31:40. > :31:42.Newsnight's returned to Stoke's Bentilee estate,
:31:43. > :31:47.Where the raffle comes with a variety of prizes.
:31:48. > :32:01.Many here had highly-skilled jobs in Stoke's once proud Potteries.
:32:02. > :32:06.If I could do that job today I would.
:32:07. > :32:17.How do you make Stoke happy again, for you?
:32:18. > :32:23.Well, the NHS, we'd like that to get better than it is.
:32:24. > :32:26.Because like I say, people are frightened to get old.
:32:27. > :32:29.We need manufacturing, we need apprenticeships.
:32:30. > :32:31.They made the biggest mistake they ever did
:32:32. > :32:38.But we've got no skilled workers, without going to those
:32:39. > :32:41.The majority here who voted in the referendum told me
:32:42. > :32:45.they voted out, no matter their political affiliation.
:32:46. > :32:48.Do you see Ukip as a party of the left, like labour?
:32:49. > :32:56.Previously Labour, Tony's voting Ukip in the by-election.
:32:57. > :33:00.He's going to put this city on the map.
:33:01. > :33:06.He's going to try and build this city up, because other
:33:07. > :33:10.parts of the country, they think Stoke-on-Trent's a dump.
:33:11. > :33:28.Uniting young and old in a city where some feel almost written off.
:33:29. > :33:35.This lady is a stalwart on the estate.
:33:36. > :33:37.It's not our first encounter, but this time it's her birthday
:33:38. > :33:42.I just want it to be totally different for these kids.
:33:43. > :34:05.And the MP is not going to provide that.
:34:06. > :34:17.Across in Hanley, in the so-called Cultural Quarter, it feels
:34:18. > :34:22.Entrepreneurs and artists are building a future in a city
:34:23. > :34:34.I am hoping that we don't end up with a Ukip MP, for one thing.
:34:35. > :34:40.I think, I am hoping it is a chance for Stoke to show the country
:34:41. > :34:43.what we all know about the city, that it is a welcoming,
:34:44. > :34:49.Not a backwater, which I have heard said of Stoke.
:34:50. > :34:51.The gallery offers residencies to graduates to attract
:34:52. > :35:00.All part of efforts to revive the city through culture.
:35:01. > :35:03.Change doesn't happen overnight and I think we're not there yet.
:35:04. > :35:05.Stoke is not at that tipping point yet.
:35:06. > :35:07.But it feels to me that we are close.
:35:08. > :35:09.And I think that is why the result is so important,
:35:10. > :35:19.A negative result could really set Stoke back.
:35:20. > :35:23.I don't think it has ever been this great.
:35:24. > :35:34.This entrepreneur's Hanley coffee shop is now in its third year.
:35:35. > :35:39.I think the things that we really want to focus on and could really do
:35:40. > :35:42.And to achieve that, says another Hanley entrepreneur,
:35:43. > :35:49.An MP needs to balance between being local and still
:35:50. > :35:53.How does Stoke fit in with the national agenda
:35:54. > :35:57.Because without that bigger push and that drive,
:35:58. > :36:02.I think we are in risk of just staying where we are.
:36:03. > :36:04.Stoke's future could be brighter than it has been recently.
:36:05. > :36:07.And while people across the city may not agree on how to achieve
:36:08. > :36:09.that, surely everyone, no matter their politics,
:36:10. > :36:12.is united by the feeling that the city they love deserves
:36:13. > :36:20.Now, I'm still with my panel of politicians, but I'd
:36:21. > :36:23.like to bring in some external commentators now.
:36:24. > :36:28.Afua Hirsch, journalist and broadcaster and who has written
:36:29. > :36:31.on Britishness and identity, Hugo Dixon is a journalist,
:36:32. > :36:34.economist, and entrepreneur, and was a passionate Remain
:36:35. > :36:39.And Iain Martin is a Times columnist, and edits
:36:40. > :36:42.Reaction, a web platform for commentary and discussion.
:36:43. > :36:49.He was a prominent leaver back last June.
:36:50. > :36:58.I want to focus on specific things that can be done to improve
:36:59. > :37:03.political engagement and help communities, such as Stoke and to
:37:04. > :37:07.get away from words. You have thought about social integration and
:37:08. > :37:12.the sense of well-being and identity. What would you do as
:37:13. > :37:16.opposed to just saying things about that? Listening to the people in the
:37:17. > :37:22.audience and the voices in that package, this is about alienation
:37:23. > :37:24.and people wanting to be heard and from my perspective, these are
:37:25. > :37:27.long-term problems with the political system and what people
:37:28. > :37:33.want, to hear an old person saying it is scary to get old because the
:37:34. > :37:36.NHS is in freefall is appalling. Not acceptable. Instead of offering
:37:37. > :37:41.answers, politicians are exploiting the quick fix by offering leaving
:37:42. > :37:44.the European Union, stopping immigration, things which will not
:37:45. > :37:48.solve these problems and they play on the sense that identity is under
:37:49. > :37:54.threat instead of addressing the very tangible things that people
:37:55. > :37:59.want. Are you saying... A lot of people have said there is a sense of
:38:00. > :38:03.cultural discombobulated, there is too much change, people do not feel
:38:04. > :38:08.this is their country any more, is that a distraction from the kind of
:38:09. > :38:14.things like the NHS? That is what it is interesting about here, when you
:38:15. > :38:22.drill into what people really want here, everyone we have heard from,
:38:23. > :38:24.it is children centres, the NHS working, school places, things are
:38:25. > :38:30.functional government should provide. Social housing. These are
:38:31. > :38:35.achievable things and they are not the things that can be solved by any
:38:36. > :38:39.of the major platforms that parties offer, like leaving the EU and
:38:40. > :38:44.stopping immigration. They are the symptoms and not causes of problems.
:38:45. > :38:52.You are very intimate with this area. Does that ring true? Yes, it
:38:53. > :38:58.does. One of the key things about this area, talking about political
:38:59. > :39:03.engagement, is that nobody votes. Just under 50% of people who voted
:39:04. > :39:06.in the 20 15th election, one of the lowest if not the lowest ever in
:39:07. > :39:10.Britain and this is because people do not feel they are being
:39:11. > :39:14.represented with the choices available. Is that bread and butter
:39:15. > :39:20.issues like the NHS that they feel are not looked after or is it flags
:39:21. > :39:24.and symbols and nationality and immigration? That is interesting
:39:25. > :39:28.because when Labour were in power and when things were going well
:39:29. > :39:35.economically, they spent a lot of money on the NHS, and they still
:39:36. > :39:40.haemorrhaged votes in places like Stoke, it is not about that sheer
:39:41. > :39:49.economic thing, it is about rhetoric and symbols and immigration, for
:39:50. > :39:53.example, part of Labour's strategy in 2004, to open the doors to
:39:54. > :39:57.European immigration, that led to a decline in their appeal amongst many
:39:58. > :40:03.people in places like Stoke. One of the key differences between 2015 and
:40:04. > :40:09.2016 is a massive 16% jump in participation in Stoke, far more
:40:10. > :40:13.than the jump in more affluent parts of the country. Given the choice,
:40:14. > :40:18.the simple choice about something they cared about, people will
:40:19. > :40:23.participate. Iain Martin, you are free-market man, you are not a fan
:40:24. > :40:28.of government, a lot of the ideas were hearing about are basically
:40:29. > :40:36.government ideas, council houses, more money for the NHS. Is that a
:40:37. > :40:40.fair reflection? This might be what people want, my concern is I would
:40:41. > :40:44.argue that the only thing which can really work is dramatically
:40:45. > :40:48.increasing growth and the market functioning smartly and starting new
:40:49. > :40:56.companies and creating jobs, there is a lot that can be done. And I
:40:57. > :41:00.think that we talk about technical skills and scaling up, dramatically
:41:01. > :41:04.improving the education system, the single biggest thing that happens
:41:05. > :41:08.nationally to make a difference is taxing the economy differently,
:41:09. > :41:12.taxing big corporations and global technology companies properly and
:41:13. > :41:18.taking some of the pressure away from small business and new
:41:19. > :41:22.businesses and the tax system is skewed against them so there is a
:41:23. > :41:27.lot that can be done. My criticism is the government does not have any
:41:28. > :41:31.agenda for after Brexit, for helping places like Stoke and making the
:41:32. > :41:42.economy more dynamic to create jobs. Hugo Dixon, big on Remain, do you
:41:43. > :41:46.think the London establishment, did they run out of ideas for places
:41:47. > :41:52.like Stoke? Iain Martin has come up with things we have heard... I think
:41:53. > :41:57.so, there has been a serious problem of geographic justice in our country
:41:58. > :42:05.and this is something we need to address. -- injustice. And it is
:42:06. > :42:10.partly going to involve money so we are going to have to invest in those
:42:11. > :42:16.towns and cities like Stoke which have been left behind and that will
:42:17. > :42:20.have to be investing in skills, and it was interesting to earlier hear
:42:21. > :42:25.about the government industrial strategy, the green paper, the new
:42:26. > :42:30.money for the country was ?170 million, that is not enough. It is
:42:31. > :42:36.other things, other sorts of things like infrastructure, so that what
:42:37. > :42:41.you need is cities like Stoke, they must be able to generate the
:42:42. > :42:44.opportunity and must have the infrastructure and the skills so
:42:45. > :42:50.that the sort of market solutions that Iain Martin is talking about
:42:51. > :42:54.can actually bear fruit. If what you are seeing, and you are in a lot of
:42:55. > :42:59.these times, despite what we have heard about the cultural quarter,
:43:00. > :43:05.you are seeing the brain drain from a lot of these times, and we have
:43:06. > :43:08.one of the brilliant minds here who is not in Oxford. That is one thing
:43:09. > :43:14.but beyond money, we need something on a political level and on that
:43:15. > :43:22.level I think we need to have a significant devolution of power. Not
:43:23. > :43:26.just to Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland but to the regions
:43:27. > :43:30.of the UK. Because that will be more empowering for people. We have heard
:43:31. > :43:39.a lot of ideas, how many people like the idea of more devolution for city
:43:40. > :43:44.regions or far the biggest cities, how many of you are sceptical of
:43:45. > :43:50.giving more power to local areas? Slightly more enthusiasm. OK,
:43:51. > :43:59.significantly more for devolution. Give me some of your requests?
:44:00. > :44:06.I think that there is a lot that Stoke has to offer. Sometimes as
:44:07. > :44:09.much as we can look to Westminster and politicians in the rest of the
:44:10. > :44:16.country, what I've discovered having moved up here five years ago, is a
:44:17. > :44:19.rich vein of cultural, wonderful, creative and dedicated people. We
:44:20. > :44:24.saw that lady on the TV talking about the skills that she has.
:44:25. > :44:26.Sometimes we've neglected it ourselves as people in
:44:27. > :44:31.Stoke-on-Trent. We should be proud of what we have achieved, and we
:44:32. > :44:34.should stand on the history, so that we can look beyond ourselves and see
:44:35. > :44:44.what's possible. Certainly what I'm doing is... The gentleman at the
:44:45. > :44:47.back. I was just thinking about higher education funding. I've got
:44:48. > :44:52.four kids, they are all faced with tuition fees. If you look at
:44:53. > :44:57.regional strategy, could we do something around reducing tuition
:44:58. > :45:02.fees regionally, to attract people to local universities, and also look
:45:03. > :45:12.at the science parks and facilities around the universities. Keele
:45:13. > :45:15.University, we need to look at further investment at Staffordshire
:45:16. > :45:21.University and the issue of tuition fees and how that is affecting young
:45:22. > :45:25.people. The lady at the back? I would like to personally take
:45:26. > :45:31.exception to what Hugo said. There are a lot of very bright people
:45:32. > :45:35.here. We aren't stupid. I've got 2 degrees, there are people in our
:45:36. > :45:48.area who are very, very clever. So please don't tarnish us with that
:45:49. > :45:53.brush. Peter and Mark, did you use your satnavs to get here today?
:45:54. > :45:56.Gareth is for the people and representing us. Debbie, please stop
:45:57. > :46:04.apologising, you're doing a good job. Why did he call Brexit a pile
:46:05. > :46:10.of... And basically he and many of his colleagues have been very clear
:46:11. > :46:16.of talking about people being racist for boating Brexit, being stupid and
:46:17. > :46:22.educated. He isn't here to answer that particular... Did you get here
:46:23. > :46:30.by satnav or did you know where Stoke is? Of course I knew. I'm only
:46:31. > :46:34.in London a few days a week because that is where Parliament is. The
:46:35. > :46:38.idea we are all based in London... I think the important thing for the
:46:39. > :46:41.choice tomorrow is, our candidate is someone who has always lived in
:46:42. > :46:48.Stoke, he was born here, he's a Cabinet member... I want to stick to
:46:49. > :46:53.the big issues, what we do for places like Stoke. Is Brexit
:46:54. > :46:57.actually in practice going to provide, is that the silver bullet
:46:58. > :47:02.that is going to help Stoke or is it going to get in the way? Well,
:47:03. > :47:05.Brexit is going to be absolutely brilliant for the Midlands and the
:47:06. > :47:10.north, for once people are looking at where we are sending our money.
:47:11. > :47:15.We sending it all to the EU, are we sending it all abroad, are we
:47:16. > :47:19.spending five times more, ten times more, no, where is the money going.
:47:20. > :47:24.It is going to spark more engagement and people demanding the money is
:47:25. > :47:30.spent in their areas. You really think Brexit is going to make
:47:31. > :47:36.material improvement? It can do. I never argued that it's some kind of
:47:37. > :47:41.magic solution on its own, self-government. But what I would
:47:42. > :47:45.say is, if you look at the problems in a place like Stoke, membership of
:47:46. > :47:50.the EU doesn't seem to have done it very much good in the last 30 years.
:47:51. > :47:57.You can understand why people might want to try an alternative. I think
:47:58. > :48:03.people are underestimating the people of Stoke. All the parties are
:48:04. > :48:07.exploiting this. Even Labour have been using the St Georges flag,
:48:08. > :48:11.playing to that sense of identity. I think voters are right to be cynical
:48:12. > :48:14.because that isn't the answer to the problems. Politicians are tapping in
:48:15. > :48:17.to what they think is the easiest way of getting votes without
:48:18. > :48:21.offering solutions. Everyone says they want to be heard but the only
:48:22. > :48:23.reason people are listening to people in Stoke today is because
:48:24. > :48:36.there is a by-election. APPLAUSE I think there is a risk about
:48:37. > :48:40.Brexit, and that is this particularly hard, destructive
:48:41. > :48:45.Brexit, that Theresa May is charging towards. That could tank the
:48:46. > :48:49.economy. If that happens, there won't be money for the NHS, there
:48:50. > :48:55.won't be money for skills, there won't be money for infrastructure. I
:48:56. > :49:02.think that is something that will not be helpful for the people of
:49:03. > :49:05.Stoke. We are virtually out of time. People have said things about
:49:06. > :49:11.labour, you wanted to come in, Debbie? The point that has been made
:49:12. > :49:16.about the campaign, and so on, and it being this prism we are seeing
:49:17. > :49:21.it, this needs to happen all year round. It's a new type of politics
:49:22. > :49:24.we need, where we empower and engage our communities, it's absolutely
:49:25. > :49:30.key. APPLAUSE Did we solve it? We've had a lot of
:49:31. > :49:37.words and ideas. Did we find that silver bullet? I don't know. Stoke
:49:38. > :49:42.Central by-election tomorrow has ten candidates and you get another
:49:43. > :49:44.chance to see who they all are. More parties on the list than we could
:49:45. > :49:49.represent here today. You can see a slate of all
:49:50. > :49:51.the candidates standing We leave you with Staffordshire's
:49:52. > :50:07.renowned poet, the late Let me thank our guests and those
:50:08. > :50:09.who are local. Thank you very much indeed, to our lovely audience too.
:50:10. > :50:12.APPLAUSE We leave you with Staffordshire's
:50:13. > :50:14.renowned poet, the late Charles Tomlinson, and his
:50:15. > :50:15.memories of Stoke-on-Trent, It was a language of
:50:16. > :50:26.water, light and air I sought-to speak
:50:27. > :50:28.myself free of a world Whose stoic lethargy
:50:29. > :50:29.seemed the one reply To horizons and to streets
:50:30. > :50:32.that blocked them back To tell of all that
:50:33. > :50:47.seasoned and imprisoned: From a landscape of
:50:48. > :50:53.disembowellings, underworlds Digging the marl,
:50:54. > :51:01.they dug a second nature And water, seeping up
:51:02. > :51:04.to fill their pits, Sheeted them to lakes
:51:05. > :51:09.that wink and shine Between tips and steeples,
:51:10. > :51:13.streets and waste In slow reclaimings,
:51:14. > :51:20.shimmers, balancings, As if kindling Eden
:51:21. > :51:22.rescinded its own loss And words and water came
:51:23. > :51:33.of the same source.