:00:11. > :00:15.I am never going to step down. You can't get rid of me!
:00:16. > :00:17.Supreme Court Justice, American liberal hope,
:00:18. > :00:20.An extraordinary rare interview with Ruth Bader Ginsberg
:00:21. > :00:29.The true symbol of the United States is not the bald eagle.
:00:30. > :00:38.And when the pendulum swings too far in one direction, it will come back.
:00:39. > :00:41.As the polls close in two critical by-elections,
:00:42. > :00:45.we're live at both counts with a political ear to the ground.
:00:46. > :00:48.As the US Secretary of State meets his Mexican counterpart,
:00:49. > :00:50.we're in the border town of Nogales, where they've had
:00:51. > :01:01.No wall, no matter how beautiful or how big or how
:01:02. > :01:04.expensive, is going to stop people that are desperate, people that are
:01:05. > :01:14.And when you're sick of minding your language.
:01:15. > :01:22.You are not free to express your opinion. Because you are racist, a
:01:23. > :01:24.bigot or homophobic or depending on the topic, you are no longer allowed
:01:25. > :01:27.to an opinion. Has the rise of political
:01:28. > :01:28.correctness unleashed Good evening, any political storm
:01:29. > :01:39.that is happening in Stoke right now has been overshadowed by Doris
:01:40. > :01:42.on their doorstep. But as we come on air,
:01:43. > :01:44.two critical by-elections The counting is just beginning
:01:45. > :01:48.and it looks like a long night ahead Our political editor Nick Watt
:01:49. > :01:55.is in Stoke and the BBC's political correspondent Tom Bateman
:01:56. > :02:06.is in the Copeland constituency. They have both been reading the body
:02:07. > :02:13.language as the polls close and the politicians come to the card. What
:02:14. > :02:16.are you hearing so far? In normal times we would not pay much
:02:17. > :02:23.attention to these Labour seats that have been in the party's hands for a
:02:24. > :02:28.combined 149 years but these are not normal times and these by-elections
:02:29. > :02:32.in Stoke and Copeland will give us some idea of how Jeremy Corbyn is
:02:33. > :02:37.going down in a part Britain that is not really his natural territory.
:02:38. > :02:41.Natural, strong Labour areas that voted in favour of leaving in the
:02:42. > :02:46.referendum back in June. What did we learn? Do not make predictions
:02:47. > :02:50.before the votes have been counted so I will take the safer course of
:02:51. > :02:57.action of reporting on what the parties say. In Stoke, Labour say
:02:58. > :03:01.they think they might squeak ahead of Ukip, two factors in their
:03:02. > :03:04.favourite- Paul Nuttall, the leader of Ukip with those difficult
:03:05. > :03:10.questions about his involvement in Hillsborough and the second, they
:03:11. > :03:16.genuinely think they have been connecting to those voters who
:03:17. > :03:22.supported Leave in the referendum. Ukip say, don't count us out, they
:03:23. > :03:26.had a reasonable pace, second place in the General Election, 22.7% of
:03:27. > :03:31.the vote but the problem was they said they had no idea where those
:03:32. > :03:35.voters were so they got out there, shoe leather operation, they say
:03:36. > :03:43.they know where those voters are, they had 500 volunteers on Saturday
:03:44. > :03:49.and 300 today. Over in Copeland, Labour is more nervous, they say,
:03:50. > :03:53.look at the mathematics, essentially a simple two-way contest between
:03:54. > :03:58.Labour and the Tories and the Tories were just 2500 votes behind Labour
:03:59. > :04:03.in the General Election in a contest in which the Tories were just 6.5
:04:04. > :04:08.percentage points ahead of Labour. In some polls, the Conservatives are
:04:09. > :04:13.13 percentage points in front of Labour so as Labour sources say, do
:04:14. > :04:24.the maths! It is looking tricky for them. Tom is and Copeland. Are the
:04:25. > :04:29.Tories accepted? -- excited. Ritchie bullish but cautious and where they
:04:30. > :04:33.went to a couple of activists, my first question was, will you win?
:04:34. > :04:40.They laughed and said, we will not make predictions but the mood is one
:04:41. > :04:47.of confidence, fairly bullish. Adding to that history, you must go
:04:48. > :04:50.back to 1935 to find the last time the Conservative was representing
:04:51. > :04:53.this part of the world and this should be an area that in a time
:04:54. > :04:57.like this when Labour is in opposition, they should be holding
:04:58. > :05:01.very easily and yet they have fined over the years that lead crumbling
:05:02. > :05:06.and they have found a pretty tough fight here. On the doorstep. With
:05:07. > :05:10.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership a significant issue in a part of the
:05:11. > :05:15.world which is so heavily dependent on the Sellafield nuclear plant and
:05:16. > :05:20.10,000 nuclear jobs and also on plans for another 20,000 jobs at a
:05:21. > :05:24.new plant. That has been a tough issue for Labour and has been
:05:25. > :05:28.something of a bare-knuckle fight in this election campaign. The parties
:05:29. > :05:34.have been trading blows over not just that but also concerns about
:05:35. > :05:38.the downgrading of maternity services and other wards at the West
:05:39. > :05:41.Cumberland Hospital here at Whitehaven and Labour have been
:05:42. > :05:47.trying to make that the big issue and they have been less visible here
:05:48. > :05:51.tonight. If we run through that scenario that has been suggested,
:05:52. > :05:56.that Labour could hold Stoke but possibly lose Copeland, what would
:05:57. > :06:02.you imagine is the effect on Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow? They say that the
:06:03. > :06:07.best form of defence is attack and I am told that if Labour loses one of
:06:08. > :06:11.these sets, tomorrow, supporters of Jeremy Corbyn are going to mount a
:06:12. > :06:15.pretty serious offensive against his internal party critics. I have been
:06:16. > :06:19.told they are preparing for what is described as a day of reckoning.
:06:20. > :06:23.They will ask questions, they will say, is it not strange that these
:06:24. > :06:28.by-elections were triggered by people who then got jobs who were
:06:29. > :06:32.some of the strongest critics of Jeremy Corbyn and those supporters
:06:33. > :06:35.are also going to say, how interesting it was that in the final
:06:36. > :06:43.week of that by-election campaign, Tony Blair sought to try to overturn
:06:44. > :06:46.the Brexit result, as one source said to me, to challenge the
:06:47. > :06:50.carefully nuanced position of Labour on Brexit and they will say in the
:06:51. > :06:55.final days, Peter Mandelson saying, he tries every day to work to
:06:56. > :07:01.undermine Jeremy Corbyn. What that tells us is supporters of Jeremy
:07:02. > :07:05.Corbyn fear that there might well be an attempt, another move against
:07:06. > :07:11.Jeremy Corbyn if he fails in these by-elections or in one of them and
:07:12. > :07:16.they want to nip this in the bud. Here I am in Stoke, Tom is and
:07:17. > :07:20.Copeland, the ballots have just arrived, they are starting to count
:07:21. > :07:24.and it is not until three ATM in Stoke when we will get results and
:07:25. > :07:29.let us not make any predictions until those votes have been counted.
:07:30. > :07:32.-- three o'clock in the morning. We will be back as we hear more.
:07:33. > :07:33.Tonight, we bring you an extraordinarily rare
:07:34. > :07:36.voice here on Newsnight, one of the eight serving members
:07:37. > :07:41.Ruth Bader Ginsberg became just the second woman to be elected
:07:42. > :07:46.At 83 years old, she has exploded into something of a pop icon
:07:47. > :07:47.amongst young liberals, blistering in her dissent
:07:48. > :07:51.The US Supreme Court is possibly the single most influential body
:07:52. > :07:56.in deciding the direction of America's cultural and social
:07:57. > :07:59.laws, more politically potent even than the president.
:08:00. > :08:01.Tonight, Justice Ginsberg tells us of her fears for America now
:08:02. > :08:13.and the parallels she draws with America's past.
:08:14. > :08:19.To grasp anything of the American political system you must understand
:08:20. > :08:24.the importance of the Supreme Court. This is where the most highly
:08:25. > :08:27.disputed issues, slavery, segregation, gun rights and freedom
:08:28. > :08:32.of speech, get debated and this ostensibly neutral body is perhaps
:08:33. > :08:38.the most highly politicised in the land. The bench is usually made up
:08:39. > :08:46.of nine justices on the bill is currently a vacancy following the
:08:47. > :08:49.death last year of Anton Scully. Four liberals, four Conservative and
:08:50. > :08:56.they hold those positions for my. With bigger Ginsberg was appointed
:08:57. > :08:59.by President Clinton in 1993. A passionate advocate of women's
:09:00. > :09:04.rights, she spent her early career with the American Civil Liberties
:09:05. > :09:09.Union. Here to comment is liberal Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg. In
:09:10. > :09:16.latter years she has become a cultural phenomenon. Her character
:09:17. > :09:21.is portrayed in Saturday Night Live. Justice Ginsberg blasted Trump as a
:09:22. > :09:25.figure who has a go. She shocked the establishment last year by breaking
:09:26. > :09:31.convention that justices do not comment on current events by making
:09:32. > :09:34.clear opposition to the then candidate, Trump, later apologising
:09:35. > :09:44.for those remarks. I just want to say... I will get some relief from
:09:45. > :09:47.death. She has a lifelong passion for opera and it was at the final
:09:48. > :09:52.dress rehearsal of this one at the Kennedy centre in Washington, and
:09:53. > :09:56.Opera are looking at the moral ambiguity of the death penalty in
:09:57. > :10:00.America, that USENET's millilambert sat down with her for her first
:10:01. > :10:02.interview since the victory of President Trump. -- that Newsnight
:10:03. > :10:06.sat down with her. It was a great man who once said
:10:07. > :10:15.that the true symbol of the United States is not the bald
:10:16. > :10:21.eagle, it is the pendulum, and when the pendulum swings too
:10:22. > :10:24.far in one direction, Some terrible things have happened
:10:25. > :10:37.in the United States, but one can only hope that we learn
:10:38. > :10:44.from those bad things. Think of when I grew up,
:10:45. > :10:51.at the time of World War II. The irony was we were fighting
:10:52. > :10:55.a war against racism, and yet by an executive order
:10:56. > :11:01.of President Roosevelt, people who had done nothing wrong,
:11:02. > :11:04.except they were of Japanese ancestry, were interned in camps
:11:05. > :11:12.far from their homes. It took a long time
:11:13. > :11:17.for the United States to realise But ultimately the President
:11:18. > :11:28.acknowledged that there was no reason to intern people of Japanese
:11:29. > :11:33.ancrestry, and Congress passed a bill providing compensation
:11:34. > :11:40.for the people who were interned, But do you see echoes
:11:41. > :11:47.in that kind of historical Well, I would say that we are not
:11:48. > :12:04.experiencing the best of times. But there is hope in seeing how
:12:05. > :12:11.the public is reacting to it. The Women's March, I've never seen
:12:12. > :12:17.such a demonstration, both in numbers and the rapport
:12:18. > :12:21.of the people in that crowd, there So yes, we're not experiencing
:12:22. > :12:38.the best of times. But there is reason to hope
:12:39. > :12:42.that we will see a better day. What is it about the current climate
:12:43. > :12:52.that most concerns you? Our legislature, which is the first
:12:53. > :12:57.branch of government, But I can think back to 1993,
:12:58. > :13:08.the year that President Clinton nominated me for a vacancy
:13:09. > :13:16.on the Supreme Court. I have spent ten years
:13:17. > :13:19.of my life litigating gender I was one of four general counsel to
:13:20. > :13:30.the American Civil Liberties Union. And yet the vote to
:13:31. > :13:34.confirm me was 96-3. No-one raised a question
:13:35. > :13:38.about my affiliation with the American Civil Liberties
:13:39. > :13:41.Union. That kind of rapport
:13:42. > :13:48.doesn't exist now. But my dream is that we
:13:49. > :13:53.will get back to it. One day - I think it
:13:54. > :13:58.will take strong people from both parties to say,
:13:59. > :14:02."Let's get together and work I mean, you mentioned
:14:03. > :14:09.the legislature, but I'm thinking of you specifically as a judge
:14:10. > :14:15.at this point - there's been a lot of outspoken criticism of both
:14:16. > :14:19.individual judges and the judiciary as a whole, one being called
:14:20. > :14:24.a "so-called judge". You know, as someone
:14:25. > :14:28.who's served a lifetime in the courts, how do you feel
:14:29. > :14:33.about the new administration's You are 83, you are the oldest
:14:34. > :14:46.serving member on the Supreme Court. How do long you think
:14:47. > :14:58.you can do this? At my age, you have
:14:59. > :15:01.to take it year by year. I know I'm OK this year -
:15:02. > :15:04.but what will be next year? I'm hopeful, however,
:15:05. > :15:06.because my most senior colleagues, the one who most recently retired,
:15:07. > :15:08.Justice John Paul Stevens, Since you made a Supreme Court
:15:09. > :15:19.judge, how do you feel women's equality and women's
:15:20. > :15:23.rights have changed? If you just look at the numbers,
:15:24. > :15:27.when I became a Supreme Court Justice, there were six women
:15:28. > :15:32.in the Senate, now there are 20. I was the second woman
:15:33. > :15:35.on the Supreme Court, and when Justice O'Connor left,
:15:36. > :15:39.I was all alone. Now I have two colleagues,
:15:40. > :15:43.Justice Sonia Sotomayor People ask me, "When do think
:15:44. > :15:51.there will be enough?" We've had nine men for most
:15:52. > :16:01.of the country's history, and no-one thought that there
:16:02. > :16:07.was anything wrong with that. I want to return to something that
:16:08. > :16:10.we talked about at the beginning, that is to do with the sort
:16:11. > :16:21.of erosion of facts and truth. It just feels like there's less
:16:22. > :16:26.and less that one can be sure of, and I wonder, not just in the news,
:16:27. > :16:29.but in all sorts of ways, I wonder if that is something that
:16:30. > :16:38.strikes you, as you look around? What is important is
:16:39. > :16:42.that we have a free press, Think of what the press has done
:16:43. > :16:50.in the United States. That story might never have
:16:51. > :16:56.come out if we didn't Do you feel that it may be
:16:57. > :17:07.something that is forgotten? I read the Washington Post
:17:08. > :17:10.and the New York Times every day, and I think the reporters are trying
:17:11. > :17:13.to tell the public Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme
:17:14. > :17:31.Court justice. US Secretary of State
:17:32. > :17:32.Rex Tillerson met his Mexican
:17:33. > :17:35.counterpart this evening. He was told of Mexico's
:17:36. > :17:37.deep concerns over their The rallying cry on Trump's campaign
:17:38. > :17:41.trail was, of course, that vow to build a wall to keep
:17:42. > :17:43.Mexicans out. It's a vow that received
:17:44. > :17:46.no shortage of criticism. But anyone thinking this
:17:47. > :17:48.was something new would be wrong. There is already a wall
:17:49. > :17:50.between the two countries, near the border town of Nogales,
:17:51. > :17:53.which has existed since the 1990s. The US-Mexico border
:17:54. > :18:06.stretches for 2000 miles, 700 of which already have
:18:07. > :18:10.some sort of barrier. We don't know how many people
:18:11. > :18:13.it has deterred, but getting round it
:18:14. > :18:17.requires some skill. In Nogales, the first fence
:18:18. > :18:19.went up in the '90s, The cartels, who control the drug
:18:20. > :18:27.trade and the people smuggling, I'm joining a patrol
:18:28. > :18:37.of the water tunnels that run under the border connecting Mexico
:18:38. > :18:42.and the United States. We don't know who we might run into,
:18:43. > :18:47.so the police go ahead of us. They use the cover of darkness
:18:48. > :18:59.and wait for the right moment to head towards the US end
:19:00. > :19:03.of the tunnel. So the policeman just told me that
:19:04. > :19:06.after they turned on the flashlight, they saw someone, and this
:19:07. > :19:10.person ran away. Minutes later, we catch a glimpse
:19:11. > :19:15.of him in the distance. Sergio is pointing at
:19:16. > :19:29.this person with a flashlight. Sergio believes it's better
:19:30. > :19:33.to back up and alert the police we are heading toward
:19:34. > :19:57.the entrance of the tunnel. The traffickers use not only
:19:58. > :20:01.the subterranean infrastructure. more than 110 tunnels
:20:02. > :20:09.built by Mexican cartels. and they make Nogales
:20:10. > :20:17.the tunnel capital of the border. In this cemetery,
:20:18. > :20:21.one of them hides in plain sight. This is the entrance of a tunnel
:20:22. > :20:26.which was recently filled in. They used to carry drugs
:20:27. > :20:29.to the other side of the border, and as you can see, the fence
:20:30. > :20:33.is just about 100 metres from here. Tony Estrada has been
:20:34. > :20:40.a sheriff for 25 years. He isn't sure the wall
:20:41. > :20:42.President Trump wants to build If you do anything,
:20:43. > :20:48.they'll go under it, they'll go over it,
:20:49. > :20:51.they'll go around it. So it's a phenomenon that is
:20:52. > :20:54.not going to stop, and no wall, no matter how beautiful,
:20:55. > :20:56.how big or how expensive, is going to stop people
:20:57. > :20:59.that are desperate people, that are needy,
:21:00. > :21:03.and people that are poor. Estrada says the deportation raids
:21:04. > :21:06.taking place in the US show that the authorities
:21:07. > :21:12.are missing the point. Illegal immigration,
:21:13. > :21:14.as far as I am concerned, pales, When you are spending all your
:21:15. > :21:19.resources on illegal migration, and you're talking about relocate,
:21:20. > :21:22.identifying people who are leaving the community, that have families
:21:23. > :21:25.and are contributing, it's useless, it's not putting your resources
:21:26. > :21:31.to the best. Criminal aliens, I've said it
:21:32. > :21:34.for years, let's go after them, let's go after the criminal agents,
:21:35. > :21:36.but don't bother anybody else. This shelter in Nogales
:21:37. > :21:38.opened three decades ago. Since then, it has received hundreds
:21:39. > :21:44.of thousands of migrants. We find hope and faith,
:21:45. > :21:46.but also sadness and pain. Eusebia Ortiz
:21:47. > :21:54.was deported a day ago. She tried to enter the US after
:21:55. > :22:11.coming to Mexico to see her family. She has lived for 13 years
:22:12. > :22:16.in Florida picking tomatoes. Despite the risky journey,
:22:17. > :22:39.she's already planning to go back. If anyone is able to judge
:22:40. > :22:42.the success of a war, This one says
:22:43. > :22:48.it has reduced numbers. He was happy to appear on camera
:22:49. > :23:05.but asked us not to name him. For him, a bigger wall could mean
:23:06. > :23:29.fewer clients but more money. of the mixed and complex
:23:30. > :23:34.nature of border towns, and of the unintended consequences
:23:35. > :23:38.of building barriers. but others will find
:23:39. > :23:47.another way round. I spoke to Vincente Fox,
:23:48. > :23:52.former President of Mexico. I began by asking him whether,
:23:53. > :23:54.for all his concern, about President Trump's border wall,
:23:55. > :23:57.the reality is that these walls have contributed to reducing
:23:58. > :24:02.Mexican immigration to the US? There is strong language
:24:03. > :24:07.in this interview. it is that Mexixo is building
:24:08. > :24:24.opportunities for its own people - in our part of Mexico, with full
:24:25. > :24:27.employment right now. It is about 60% of
:24:28. > :24:28.the population here. And it is because of
:24:29. > :24:30.the capacity, the productivity, the quality
:24:31. > :24:34.of Mexican workers. So, yes, the trend is reversing,
:24:35. > :24:38.and this is something that I am sure it was spoken
:24:39. > :24:40.about this morning in the meetings between
:24:41. > :24:44.the Secretary of State, the Homeland Security
:24:45. > :24:50.and the Mexican authorities. I think it was a great victory
:24:51. > :24:55.for Mexico because these envoys of the Emperor Trump
:24:56. > :24:59.to Mexico came with instructions to advise Mexico about deportations
:25:00. > :25:04.and about the wall. And everything was rejected
:25:05. > :25:10.by Mexican authorities. So, it is incredible,
:25:11. > :25:15.this way of working of Senor Trump. He is speaking one
:25:16. > :25:22.language and one message. He was very aggressive again
:25:23. > :25:25.on saying that he will deport most every single Mexican
:25:26. > :25:29.that is undocumented in the states. Number two, that he
:25:30. > :25:33.will build the wall. But his two envoys here
:25:34. > :25:38.spoke very soft language. Just to clarify, do you think
:25:39. > :25:40.he will effect a military operation in terms
:25:41. > :25:45.of deporting Mexicans? No, what I think he said was,
:25:46. > :25:52.he said here, is that they were going to do it with full
:25:53. > :25:55.respect to human rights. Although Trump keeps
:25:56. > :26:01.talking differently. I am sure this is a great
:26:02. > :26:03.defeat for Trump You say it is a great
:26:04. > :26:12.defeat for Trump, but you know what he said,
:26:13. > :26:18.he said he will be reviewing foreign aid to Mexico,
:26:19. > :26:21.he suggested a levy of 20% tax on Mexican imports to pay
:26:22. > :26:23.for the border wall. He is going to negotiate
:26:24. > :26:25.trading partnerships. This does not sound
:26:26. > :26:28.like victory for Mexico. That is another one of his
:26:29. > :26:30.crazy, ignorant ideas. Because that border tax
:26:31. > :26:39.has to have an allowance from the World Trade
:26:40. > :26:53.Office, the WTO. If not, he cannot apply
:26:54. > :26:54.it or he will have to
:26:55. > :26:56.leave that organisation. And that means the United
:26:57. > :27:00.States will have to cancel all trading with
:27:01. > :27:02.the rest of the world. he will get the same
:27:03. > :27:06.on the Mexican side. Don't forget that we import
:27:07. > :27:09.as much as we export in the relationship between Mexico
:27:10. > :27:13.and the United States. He has also said he will send
:27:14. > :27:16.immigrants home through Mexico, even if it is not
:27:17. > :27:18.their country of origin. He has a very strong response today
:27:19. > :27:25.from our authorities, and I congratulate our
:27:26. > :27:28.authorities that they stood firm. Not accepting any
:27:29. > :27:32.of these crazy ideas. And let us see what his envoys
:27:33. > :27:38.come back to tell him. Because Mexico is fighting,
:27:39. > :27:42.and Mexico will not cede. You keep on talking about this
:27:43. > :27:46.defeat but I am trying to work out, what can Mexico do in practical
:27:47. > :27:50.terms, to hit back? If the wall is built
:27:51. > :27:53.and your country is taxed, if trade negotiations do not go in your
:27:54. > :27:57.favour, what can you actually do? First, we're not
:27:58. > :28:03.playing for that wall. Number two, in trade, we have a lot
:28:04. > :28:06.of leverage in negotiating Not only with Mexico
:28:07. > :28:19.but the rest of the world. Number three, this
:28:20. > :28:24.aggressive policies from Senor Trump are causing
:28:25. > :28:27.in the state of California, 33% of the people
:28:28. > :28:29.are ready to Calexit. Imagine California, the seventh
:28:30. > :28:33.largest economy in the world, So he had better keep quiet,
:28:34. > :28:40.he had better come down. He had better start
:28:41. > :28:41.acting like President, he better start respecting everybody
:28:42. > :28:48.else so that he can be respected. The former president of Mexico
:28:49. > :28:59.speaking to us from Mexico. The true fickleness of football
:29:00. > :29:02.success was exposed in all its glory this afternoon with the sacking
:29:03. > :29:04.of the man who achieved the impossible just
:29:05. > :29:06.a few short months ago. Remember when manager
:29:07. > :29:08.Claudio Ranieri sealed the title for Leicester with a 1000-1 chance
:29:09. > :29:11.and was hailed as a hero? Gary Linker called it
:29:12. > :29:17.gutwrenchingly sad. Former Leicester Striker Tony Cottee
:29:18. > :29:19.suggested the club had Jonathan Ashworth is the MP
:29:20. > :29:24.for Leicester South. I understand you have
:29:25. > :29:27.a little guy at home who's going to be very
:29:28. > :29:40.unhappy when he wakes up. Well, it is a little girl, and I am
:29:41. > :29:45.not sure she quite realises who he is, but she was very excited last
:29:46. > :29:49.season when I took her to a first football game at the King Power
:29:50. > :29:53.Stadium, and she certainly got into the spirit of things. We went to the
:29:54. > :29:57.celebrations party in the local park where the bus, which we have just
:29:58. > :30:01.seen, came with all the players. So she is going to be, she is going to
:30:02. > :30:05.be pretty upset when she finds out that the guy who took Leicester to
:30:06. > :30:09.this famous victory has been sacked, yeah. What does it tell you more
:30:10. > :30:15.broadly, this acting? I think it is really sad, and it is not very
:30:16. > :30:19.classy, really, is it? We know that we are not having a good season,
:30:20. > :30:25.although we are still in Europe, and the game against Sevilla, we did get
:30:26. > :30:29.a goal. I think we would like to have seen what happens with that
:30:30. > :30:34.European campaign before this decision, but it was a tremendous
:30:35. > :30:38.fairy tale, wasn't it, last season? The whole world was talking about
:30:39. > :30:49.Leicester, no-one believed it could have happened. It gave the city a
:30:50. > :30:53.tremendous buzz. I'm just wondering what kind of message this sends out
:30:54. > :30:56.to young people, is this what happens when something great echoes,
:30:57. > :31:03.you get fired when you cannot repeat the same thing? That is exactly
:31:04. > :31:08.right, and it does feel like a panic move. It does not seem very classy,
:31:09. > :31:13.the comments from Gary Lineker are absolutely right. Look, we all want
:31:14. > :31:16.the club to stay, we don't want to see them relegated, but I think they
:31:17. > :31:20.should have given him a chance, and if they have done this now, if they
:31:21. > :31:23.get a new manager in and the club does get relegated, there would be
:31:24. > :31:28.quite a lot of angry fans in Leicester. Let me just ask you
:31:29. > :31:32.something, it nine months ago somebody told you Jeremy Corbyn was
:31:33. > :31:37.still in his job and Ranieri was out of phase, what you would have made a
:31:38. > :31:46.bit?! Two big by-elections tonight, what is your thoughts on the way
:31:47. > :31:49.they will go? That is quite a mischievous statement! On the
:31:50. > :31:53.by-elections, we will take not think for granted, we have to win them
:31:54. > :31:56.both, I do not know what is going to happen, I have campaigned in both of
:31:57. > :32:02.them, we all know the opinion polls have been difficult, but Labour has
:32:03. > :32:07.to win in these places. Some suggestion from our political editor
:32:08. > :32:10.that if Labour loses Copeland, the Corbyn strategists will try to blame
:32:11. > :32:15.the Blairites for coming out in force over the last couple of weeks,
:32:16. > :32:20.watched you make of that? Well, I didn't say that report. What I would
:32:21. > :32:25.say is, well, let's see what the result is, but if we lose, we have
:32:26. > :32:29.to ask ourselves some questions. I am the Shadow Health Secretary, it
:32:30. > :32:34.is the responsibility of all of us in leading positions to reflect on
:32:35. > :32:39.the results and work out what we are going to do to win people's trust
:32:40. > :32:43.back in the future, if we do lose, I do not know what is going to happen.
:32:44. > :32:47.It is the responsibility of every Labour MP and everybody in the
:32:48. > :32:50.Shadow Cabinet to ask questions and wonder why we didn't win, and to
:32:51. > :32:52.make sure we are putting forward practical policies which people want
:32:53. > :32:57.and which will command support. Has an overdose of political
:32:58. > :32:58.correctness ushered That's the subject -
:32:59. > :33:02.or the thesis, perhaps - of a Channel 4 documentary tonight
:33:03. > :33:04.by Trevor Phillips, former head of the Equality
:33:05. > :33:07.and Human Rights Commission. At its heart it poses the question -
:33:08. > :33:11.by controlling language on race, gender, disability etc,
:33:12. > :33:13.are we changing the way people think or just supressing
:33:14. > :33:17.what they continue to feel? And has the gagging of certain
:33:18. > :33:20.phrases just unleashed an anger now emerging as this
:33:21. > :33:23.new popular fervour? Before we discuss this,
:33:24. > :33:25.here's a little taste of that It's from a Newsnight film six
:33:26. > :33:29.months ago when Gabriel Gatehouse visited Youngstown in Ohio before
:33:30. > :33:34.the US Presidential elections. You are not free to express
:33:35. > :33:41.your opinion, you know? Because you are a racist,
:33:42. > :33:44.you are a bigot, you are homophobic. Or, depending on whatever the topic
:33:45. > :33:47.is, you are no longer Joining me now in the studio
:33:48. > :33:50.is one of the founders of the Women's Equalities Party,
:33:51. > :33:53.Catherine Meyer, who also has a new book out -
:33:54. > :33:56."Attack of the 50 Foot Women - How Gender Equality
:33:57. > :34:08.Can Save the World". Thank you for joining us. Will you
:34:09. > :34:11.take that on board? Liberals can be accused of shutting down debate with
:34:12. > :34:17.that insistence on political correctness? Are very familiar
:34:18. > :34:21.argument but in the time since I find it the women's equality party
:34:22. > :34:26.and the time I have been writing this book I have been examined using
:34:27. > :34:31.-- examining the mechanisms that created this situation and I can
:34:32. > :34:36.tell you it is a very confused cause and effect. Political correctness is
:34:37. > :34:40.not the reason we are where we are, it is what you mean by that. The
:34:41. > :34:45.bundle of things called political correctness. It is about a very
:34:46. > :34:50.divided world. When you heard those men in the film saying we are not
:34:51. > :34:54.free to express our own opinions. They will not stop having those but
:34:55. > :34:58.they feel they cannot use that language any more. Is that the right
:34:59. > :35:03.or wrong direction? It is missing the point. What has happened is a
:35:04. > :35:08.failure of mainstream politics. The reason that I came up with the idea
:35:09. > :35:13.of the party is I had seen the way mainstream parties responded to Ukip
:35:14. > :35:19.by contorting themselves into Ukip positions, why not do the same for
:35:20. > :35:24.feminism? If we prove it is a vote winner, maybe the parties will make
:35:25. > :35:31.themselves like that. I doing that, by the parties taking on the
:35:32. > :35:36.colouration of the populace, they are not challenging it, they lose
:35:37. > :35:40.authenticity and in the search for authenticity people often mistake
:35:41. > :35:44.people spouting misogyny and racism for truth tellers whereas they are
:35:45. > :35:49.actually misogynists and racist. Do you agree? There is no link between
:35:50. > :35:55.the rise of political correctness and the rise of this populism? It is
:35:56. > :36:01.more complicated than what people... People want a reason and because
:36:02. > :36:07.people were so caught short by Brexit and President Trump and the
:36:08. > :36:12.20 collection here, the results of the elections in Australia, where I
:36:13. > :36:19.used to work, they want an explanation and they want a nice,
:36:20. > :36:22.simple model causal explanation. Political correctness might be
:36:23. > :36:32.apart, shutting people up is not a good thing, not for civil society,
:36:33. > :36:36.it does not help... That idea of shutting people up, does not tally
:36:37. > :36:43.with how you think about politically correct language working? There has
:36:44. > :36:47.been a debate around no platforming, if that is what you are talking
:36:48. > :36:52.about? And a certain policing of language. Some of that is valid only
:36:53. > :36:57.in the sense that that language is, as I was talking about, offensive,
:36:58. > :37:01.but I believe in free speech, I would rather not invite some of the
:37:02. > :37:06.people who get invited but I would not give them no platform. It does
:37:07. > :37:11.not mean the issues are not real. One that comes to mind because it
:37:12. > :37:17.was shortly after I arrived in the UK from Australia, it was Julie
:37:18. > :37:23.Bindel, who I disagree with on pretty much everything but is still
:37:24. > :37:28.recognisable feminist having no platform and I thought, I'm sorry,
:37:29. > :37:34.unless you have two head, I do not see in what universe she is the
:37:35. > :37:36.wrong sort of feminist. Maybe students have always done this and
:37:37. > :37:43.the only difference is non-students are listening to students? Do you
:37:44. > :37:51.feel embarrassed by what the Liberals have done with the policing
:37:52. > :37:56.of who is allowed to say what? No, I think, I agree with what Helen says
:37:57. > :38:05.about the complexity. We also bring this world with the huge digital
:38:06. > :38:10.presence that people have, this cacophony, and if you live with this
:38:11. > :38:13.cacophony to shut out some of those noises, they make some sense, and
:38:14. > :38:21.that is not the way to go but it is not to blame. It is crazy. You would
:38:22. > :38:25.want to go back to the era where politically correct language was not
:38:26. > :38:32.used and you had vile words to describe disabled or a gay people? I
:38:33. > :38:36.get to swing the gay one here, I grew up in the 1980s when aids was a
:38:37. > :38:41.thing when I was coming out and I grew up in a conservative state of
:38:42. > :38:49.Queensland and my conservative Christian friends told me that this
:38:50. > :38:55.was the plumber's friend of God! What was your response? I made the
:38:56. > :39:02.decision then and I have stuck to it all of my life, if you cannot handle
:39:03. > :39:10.nasty language then public life is not for you. Suck it up? That was a
:39:11. > :39:17.decision I made them. And growing up in Queensland, the most socially
:39:18. > :39:22.conservative state in Australia, they handle snakes and I had to
:39:23. > :39:26.learn to deal with it! All three of us have learned to do with it but
:39:27. > :39:29.that is not the way it should be. One of the things we're trying to do
:39:30. > :39:33.with the party is open it up to a wider variety of people, more
:39:34. > :39:40.diversity, and that means trying to create a culture in which people,
:39:41. > :39:46.women, do not have to fear going out into the public eye and do not get
:39:47. > :39:50.called names. But that is not the same as shying away from truth
:39:51. > :39:51.telling. Great to have you both, we have run out of time.
:39:52. > :40:02.Kirsty will have the by-election results tomorrow. Good night.
:40:03. > :40:09.Kirsty will have the by-election results tomorrow. Good night.
:40:10. > :40:19.Most of us had just about managed to weather the storm, quite a serious
:40:20. > :40:22.one. A casualty, unfortunately. It is well and truly gone and we're
:40:23. > :40:27.left with clear skies and a touch of frost in the morning and some icy
:40:28. > :40:28.patches and a mix of weather is on the way on Friday, some rain