:00:00. > :00:10.It absolutely clear that people from other European countries who are
:00:11. > :00:13.living here have their rights protected.
:00:14. > :00:16.And today the House of Lords upheld that same idea.
:00:17. > :00:25.It's not the vote the Government wanted.
:00:26. > :00:27.It takes away negotiating flexibility,
:00:28. > :00:32.We'll examine the case for and against making promises
:00:33. > :00:43.Also tonight, how can we leave the EU customs union without having
:00:44. > :00:53.Programmes like this took a long time to get over
:00:54. > :00:55.being satirised by Armando Ianucci like this in 1994.
:00:56. > :00:58.So how might he go about doing the same
:00:59. > :01:07.Also tonight, how can we leave the EU customs union without having
:01:08. > :01:09.a hard border between the Republic of Ireland
:01:10. > :01:22.If you set up border checks, you are setting people up in static
:01:23. > :01:25.positions which makes it incredibly easy to shoot at them and as soon as
:01:26. > :01:31.they come out of those checks they will be easy to shoot out. -- shoot
:01:32. > :01:35.at. The Lords have thrown the first
:01:36. > :01:38.spanner into the Brexit works so carefully constructed
:01:39. > :01:40.by the Prime Minister, voting to amend the Brexit bill
:01:41. > :01:43.to tie the Government's hands by giving EU citizens here
:01:44. > :01:45.a guarantee of a right to remain. Now the plain truth is,
:01:46. > :01:48.there is little controversy over the substance: the Government wants
:01:49. > :01:50.the EU residents here just as the Lords do and the Leave
:01:51. > :01:53.campaigners in the referendum did. The issue is about whether you
:01:54. > :01:55.negotiate their guarantee of residence in return
:01:56. > :01:58.for assurances over the rights Or should we make the
:01:59. > :02:05.guarantee unilaterally? It was hard fought
:02:06. > :02:17.in the Lords today. If we are to be concerned about
:02:18. > :02:21.anybody's rights after Brexit, to live anywhere on this continent of
:02:22. > :02:27.Europe, it should be our concern for the rights of British people to live
:02:28. > :02:34.freely and peacefully in those other parts of Europe. Somehow or the
:02:35. > :02:43.other, today we seem to be thinking of nothing but the rights of
:02:44. > :02:48.foreigners. My lords. All our debate has been based on the premise that
:02:49. > :02:52.somehow we will get what we want in the end because there will be
:02:53. > :02:58.reciprocity. But supposing there is sent. Will we really at that point
:02:59. > :03:03.turnaround to EU nationals in this country and say on your way. Will we
:03:04. > :03:06.say take your children out of the schools? Will we say to the elderly,
:03:07. > :03:13.please go away from our care homes? My lords, this idea of it as a
:03:14. > :03:18.negotiating point, which I agree it is being used as, is totally
:03:19. > :03:21.unrealistic and totally unacceptable.
:03:22. > :03:23.Well, the signs are the government will try to overturn
:03:24. > :03:26.But for Europeans here, it's a bit fraught.
:03:27. > :03:29.Most have been here over five years and are already entitled to get
:03:30. > :03:32.permanent residency - but they have to fill out a huge
:03:33. > :03:34.form, go through various hoops, some potentially impossible,
:03:35. > :03:36.and even then there is a good chance of rejection.
:03:37. > :03:39.So some kind of automatic recognition of a right to remain
:03:40. > :03:43.is key, and especially so for those here for less than five years.
:03:44. > :03:51.John Sweeney has been meeting some of those affected.
:03:52. > :03:59.The question is that the motion be agreed to? As many of that opinion
:04:00. > :04:05.will say content. To the country, not content. Clear the bar. Not the
:04:06. > :04:07.dog and duck, but the House of Lords tonight fired the first shot against
:04:08. > :04:14.the government's plans to deliver Brexit. Until the day before
:04:15. > :04:18.yesterday, well, the end of 2015, members of European Union states had
:04:19. > :04:22.a right to live in Britain. Enter the Home Office. The people who work
:04:23. > :04:28.in this building behind me came up with this. It is a native 5-page
:04:29. > :04:33.form you have to fill in and people who have done that say the whole
:04:34. > :04:38.process is a nightmare -- and 85-page form. Brexit is beginning to
:04:39. > :04:45.bite in parts of Britain you would least expect. Welcome to Surrey's
:04:46. > :04:49.stockbroker belt. Cave, originally from France, has applied for for
:04:50. > :04:54.permanent residency repeatedly. Yesterday she got her third
:04:55. > :04:59.rejection letter -- Aurelia cave. I was told I could send a certified
:05:00. > :05:02.copy of this passport knowing they had the original previously. This
:05:03. > :05:08.application was rejected on the basis that they needed the original
:05:09. > :05:14.of the passport. But they had a certified copy? Indeed. Are they
:05:15. > :05:20.making life deliberately difficult for you? I feel like it really, yes.
:05:21. > :05:25.I don't understand the rejection. My kids are British, my husband is
:05:26. > :05:29.British. I never asked anything from them, I just want this card for
:05:30. > :05:33.reassurance and I felt like I was dealt with really unfairly. Aurelia
:05:34. > :05:39.is on the neighbourhood watch committee. Twenty20 coppers came
:05:40. > :05:45.round to talk about a burglary, her youngest son thought the worst. He
:05:46. > :05:50.said, you are not taking my mum, you're not taking my mum. When the
:05:51. > :05:58.police arrived? Yes, because he thought they were coming to get me.
:05:59. > :06:03.Sabine von Toerne is a midwife originally from Germany who has
:06:04. > :06:06.lived in Britain for 13 years. Her eight-year-old boy was born here.
:06:07. > :06:13.She has not been rejected, she cannot even apply. You were training
:06:14. > :06:22.at the NHS and you now work for the NHS? Correct, yes. But that doesn't
:06:23. > :06:27.count? Well, because I have only started work two years ago, in
:06:28. > :06:32.February 2015, and before I was a student, did not have specific
:06:33. > :06:37.insurance, I now haven't got the years together, sufficient years to
:06:38. > :06:40.get by permanent residency document. Did you ever imagine when you first
:06:41. > :06:47.Kenya all these years ago that it would end up like this? No, I would
:06:48. > :06:52.never have imagined this. I basically thought after 1989 that we
:06:53. > :06:58.were free to go wherever we liked. I would never have imagined that I
:06:59. > :07:02.could end up being a second-class citizen and that my rights could be
:07:03. > :07:09.questioned in any way. It makes me sad, disappointed, angry and a bit
:07:10. > :07:13.helpless, although I am trying to do something about it. Are you
:07:14. > :07:20.sleeping? Not always that well. It depends. If I had a very hard day at
:07:21. > :07:25.work I might fall into my bed and sleep, but there are definitely
:07:26. > :07:31.nights where I am kept awake because I am thinking about my future. NHS
:07:32. > :07:36.nurse Joan Pons Laplana has lived and worked in Britain since 2000. Do
:07:37. > :07:42.you consider yourself British or Spanish? My passport says I am
:07:43. > :07:47.Spanish, my heart says I am British. For the last eight months I feel my
:07:48. > :07:51.life has been put on hold. It is a situation where the government don't
:07:52. > :07:55.want to guarantee a right to stay, I feel they took my voice away because
:07:56. > :08:00.I was not able to vote at the referendum. They decided my future
:08:01. > :08:02.without me. For that reason, I feel a bit angry towards the government.
:08:03. > :08:05.John Sweeney there. Nicolas Hatton is the co-founder
:08:06. > :08:08.of the pressure group The 3 Million which campaigns for the rights of EU
:08:09. > :08:11.citizens who live in the UK. And Peter Bone is the Conservative
:08:12. > :08:23.MP who co-founded the pro-Brexit Good evening to you both. Nicolas,
:08:24. > :08:31.you have been here for a couple of decades. 21 years. Are you seriously
:08:32. > :08:36.fearful that you will be deported? No, I'm not fearful. I am not in the
:08:37. > :08:41.risk population I think, but some people are. I think that what we
:08:42. > :08:46.have seen today is a message of hope for Parliament, because finally we
:08:47. > :08:52.have got a majority in parliament, in the Lords to say we can't vote
:08:53. > :08:55.you the rights to stay but we are worried because we never had this
:08:56. > :08:59.before. We never had a message from the top saying yes, you could stay.
:09:00. > :09:05.It could well be overturned and then we will be back to where we were and
:09:06. > :09:10.we will be invoking Article 50 in a couple of weeks and we will not have
:09:11. > :09:14.a guarantee. Exactly. For some people it is quite tragic. They feel
:09:15. > :09:18.they are being rejected by the Home Office when they apply for their
:09:19. > :09:22.card or permanent residents and now they feel what will happen to me if
:09:23. > :09:29.there is no guarantee? Peter Bone, I just want to imagine after two years
:09:30. > :09:33.of negotiations it fails and we crash out, this is a possibility the
:09:34. > :09:37.Prime Minister has talked about and the Chancellor has talked about, and
:09:38. > :09:40.no agreement is reached and one country says we will kick the
:09:41. > :09:46.British back home now, what are we going to do? The truth of the matter
:09:47. > :09:50.is, and we all know, and this is a little bit of a Sherard is that EU
:09:51. > :09:54.citizens here, certainly before the 23rd of June will be allowed to stay
:09:55. > :09:59.and you have already pointed out somewhat that if people have been
:10:00. > :10:03.here for five years they have residency. I saw those hard cases
:10:04. > :10:09.but you know, if they pop down to the local MP he would sort it out
:10:10. > :10:14.for them. It is a 3 million. I suppose the question is, if we all
:10:15. > :10:18.know, and when the Spanish sake, OK Brits, you go home, we will have an
:10:19. > :10:26.argument about Gibraltar and send you home, we will not say a million
:10:27. > :10:31.Polish people have to go back to Poland, why do not guarantee that if
:10:32. > :10:36.you were here before June 23 or much the 15th or whatever, you are
:10:37. > :10:41.allowed to stay? That is a perfectly arguable point. I remember having an
:10:42. > :10:48.arc and with Will Straw who said we will send everybody he. -- I
:10:49. > :10:51.remember having an argument. It is outrageous you said there is no
:10:52. > :10:58.guarantee that people will be sent home. There is no suggestion, is
:10:59. > :11:05.there? But why did the government... You know why. No, I don't. This bill
:11:06. > :11:07.is about invoking Article 50 and the will of the British people to tell
:11:08. > :11:17.Brussels we are leaving, nothing else. Give me the other reason. On
:11:18. > :11:22.the general principle of the thing, there are a million British people
:11:23. > :11:26.in the EU and we are looking after their interests. Lord Tebbit put it
:11:27. > :11:32.rather bluntly. How are we looking after the interests of British
:11:33. > :11:38.people in Spain? To make sure the argument goes we will agree this
:11:39. > :11:43.very rapidly. If the Spanish used our people as a bargaining chip you
:11:44. > :11:46.are saying that we will take Nicolas and others and threatened to send
:11:47. > :11:53.them home that you have just told me we will not do that so we don't have
:11:54. > :11:57.a bargaining chip so why did we just say it? You can make that argument.
:11:58. > :12:03.Theresa May is a very sensible person. She likes to adopt all the
:12:04. > :12:10.eyes and crossed the Tees. Nicolas, you heard Peter Bone say and he is
:12:11. > :12:14.probably right that they will not send people home because we need
:12:15. > :12:21.them to run the health service, does that give you any reassurance? I
:12:22. > :12:25.think Peter might not understand the environment for, the hostile
:12:26. > :12:29.environment at the Home Office for any migrants and foreigners,
:12:30. > :12:35.including EU citizens now. We see this 85 page form. I would fill out
:12:36. > :12:40.the form, no problem. But there is a 28% refusal rate on that form, a
:12:41. > :12:45.rejection rate. We should all be able to stay. It doesn't matter
:12:46. > :12:49.whether we have a certified copy of our passports. The truth of the
:12:50. > :12:53.matter is if someone came to senior researcher in the form is dull that
:12:54. > :12:59.wrongly, I helped them to get it correct. That is about filling out a
:13:00. > :13:05.form -- if the form is filled out wrongly. There are people who were
:13:06. > :13:10.turned down because they did not have a continuous health insurance
:13:11. > :13:14.policy. They may not have been here, the they may have been away for two
:13:15. > :13:18.years. All I am saying that the 3 million figure is wrong but
:13:19. > :13:22.actually, the truth of the matter is, all three of us around this
:13:23. > :13:26.table know that in some time in the next few months there will be an
:13:27. > :13:29.agreement. It is not us who are not agreeing, it is people in the
:13:30. > :13:32.European Union. It is the German Chancellor who does not want to
:13:33. > :13:37.agree with it. If everyone agreed we could settle it tomorrow. Beat you
:13:38. > :13:40.have already said we are going to keep them anyway, Peter, so I come
:13:41. > :13:46.back to this troublesome point I do not understand how that if Spain
:13:47. > :13:50.uses our citizens there is a pawn in their fight with us over Gibraltar
:13:51. > :13:57.and send them back here, are we going to say to Poland you have to
:13:58. > :14:00.take a million Polish people back? Of course not. Would then the art
:14:01. > :14:08.would not be with Spain? It would be. A lot of immigration is a
:14:09. > :14:11.national matter anyway. If we want to talk about Gibraltar, Spain
:14:12. > :14:17.better keep its hands off Gibraltar. My view is Gibraltar should have the
:14:18. > :14:21.protection of the united kingdom but that is another discussion. Do you
:14:22. > :14:26.understand the anxiety and stress that people are feeling because they
:14:27. > :14:33.do not have the certainty. I feel my future will stop in two years' time.
:14:34. > :14:37.I am here to reassure me. My next-door neighbours are Polish. --
:14:38. > :14:41.I am here to reassure you. The vast majority of people know they are
:14:42. > :14:43.safe. It is only people who are talking up the problem who are
:14:44. > :14:48.creating the anxiety thank you. It is election day in
:14:49. > :14:50.Northern Ireland tomorrow. Such treats are meant to come along
:14:51. > :14:52.only every five years, but the two main parties
:14:53. > :14:54.in the governing coalition And so only ten months
:14:55. > :14:58.after the last election, Sinn Fein pulled the plug
:14:59. > :15:01.on the Executive after a row about the escalating costs
:15:02. > :15:03.of a renewable heating scheme. But Brexit, and deeper differences
:15:04. > :15:06.over the legacy of the Troubles also divided Sinn Fein
:15:07. > :15:08.from the Democratic Unionists. The expectation now is that those
:15:09. > :15:11.two old governing parties will be back as the potential
:15:12. > :15:14.new governing parties post-election. Now in case you'd thought
:15:15. > :15:18.you could peel your eyes away from politics in Northern Ireland
:15:19. > :15:21.as having become prosaic, Our political editor
:15:22. > :15:39.Nick Watt reports. Over the past quarter of a century
:15:40. > :15:43.Northern Ireland peace process has ebbed and flowed. Now after a decade
:15:44. > :15:50.of unbroken power-sharing, the political settlement is facing a
:15:51. > :15:52.grave challenge. Northern Ireland has been transformed beyond
:15:53. > :15:57.recognition since I first reported from here in the days when armed
:15:58. > :16:01.squaddies still patrolled the streets. Now Belfast is a thriving
:16:02. > :16:07.city with gleaming new buildings. But almost 20 years on from the Good
:16:08. > :16:11.Friday agreement, ancient divisions are haunting the selection. Very old
:16:12. > :16:17.memories of the border have been thrown up by the very new challenge
:16:18. > :16:22.of Brexit. Northern Ireland's largest party the DUP supported
:16:23. > :16:26.Brexit. But nationalists voted overwhelmingly in favour of remain
:16:27. > :16:32.amid fears that Brexit could lead to an EU border cutting across the
:16:33. > :16:36.island of Ireland. The former American senator who chaired the
:16:37. > :16:42.Good Friday agreement has told Newsnight he hopes the UK Government
:16:43. > :16:50.will ensure there no return to the hard border of the past. I can look
:16:51. > :16:54.my first days there when it was very difficult to move back and forth
:16:55. > :16:58.across the border. It was heavily militarised and there has been a
:16:59. > :17:05.huge difference now with people moving freely back and forth,
:17:06. > :17:10.reducing stereotypes, reducing the possibility of demonising those who
:17:11. > :17:12.are other in any way. One of the architects of the peace process
:17:13. > :17:18.believes the UK decision to sever most of its links with the EU
:17:19. > :17:22.customs union means a hard border will be unavoidable. The possible
:17:23. > :17:26.return of customs officials at new Borders boasts an seen in decades
:17:27. > :17:30.could be used by dissident republicans to justify their
:17:31. > :17:35.campaign of violence. Of course there is no doubt about it, I don't
:17:36. > :17:41.think it will set of those people who, small as they are and almost
:17:42. > :17:48.dangerous because anyone who plays the game of armed struggle or
:17:49. > :17:55.violence is always a danger. They would see checks on the border and
:17:56. > :17:59.customs offices on the border and the identification of the border as
:18:00. > :18:04.in some way justifying the kind of things they always have in their
:18:05. > :18:09.mind. Tony Blair's former chief of staff issued a more stark warning. I
:18:10. > :18:13.think it would be dangerous if you have a hard border, if you put in
:18:14. > :18:17.blocks along the border people will try to destroy those that will
:18:18. > :18:21.create problems. If you set up border checks, even if they are ten
:18:22. > :18:30.miles one side or other of the border you are setting people in
:18:31. > :18:33.static positions which are easy to shoot out and as soon as they come
:18:34. > :18:35.out the other easy to shoot at. The distance are tiny, they are not
:18:36. > :18:39.compatible to the old IRA but it takes few people to start murdering
:18:40. > :18:44.offices in those circumstances and once they start it's hard to know
:18:45. > :18:48.how to react, you get into the cycle of radicalisation, repression, all
:18:49. > :18:53.over again and that's not what we want. An adviser to the former First
:18:54. > :19:00.Minister David Trimble believes today's so-called soft border may
:19:01. > :19:03.eventually be preserved. It may be a soft border, two or three years from
:19:04. > :19:07.now is when you would want an election when some of these issues
:19:08. > :19:13.might have been amicably sorted out. This is a dreadful moment to have
:19:14. > :19:17.one. Concerns over Brexit will complicate attempts to re-establish
:19:18. > :19:21.the power-sharing executive. If the two largest parties in each
:19:22. > :19:26.community, likely to be the DUP and Sinn Fein once again, failed to
:19:27. > :19:30.reach agreement then the UK Government may be obliged to
:19:31. > :19:34.reimpose direct rule. I think there is every danger we could go back to
:19:35. > :19:38.direct rule and I hope that focuses minds in Northern Ireland, Dublin
:19:39. > :19:42.and London. I think it's a mistake for the British government to stand
:19:43. > :19:47.back quite so far on this issue. That was the problem in the 60s, the
:19:48. > :19:51.British government tried to ignore it, the Home Office was responsible,
:19:52. > :19:57.letters were returned, but this is something to do with us and we have
:19:58. > :20:00.to play a role. The collapse of the power-sharing executive has
:20:01. > :20:07.exasperated Jonathan Powell, a veteran of the Good Friday
:20:08. > :20:10.agreement. I think it's interesting people as different as Martin
:20:11. > :20:14.McGuinness and Ian Paisley were able to make this system worked. Two
:20:15. > :20:19.sworn enemies who played crucial roles in bringing about the troubles
:20:20. > :20:23.yet they were able to make the power-sharing executive work. The
:20:24. > :20:25.real question is can a new generation, who are not themselves
:20:26. > :20:32.involved in the troubles, even if their families had been, can they
:20:33. > :20:34.make a new system work? Northern Ireland's divided communities are
:20:35. > :20:40.heeding familiar songs which has something of a retro feel. Bertie
:20:41. > :20:45.Ahern says people waiting for normal bread-and-butter politics should be
:20:46. > :20:49.patient. I remember when I was a young politician may be in the late
:20:50. > :20:55.70s, an old politician from one of the southern counties said to me
:20:56. > :21:02.that he detected in the 1977 election that the Civil War politics
:21:03. > :21:07.was coming to an end. So, that was the south, I don't expect the north
:21:08. > :21:12.to move. Maybe not a slow but not as quickly either. After three decades
:21:13. > :21:16.of violence the Good Friday agreement was designed to end the
:21:17. > :21:22.conflict by giving all the main parties a seat in government, in a
:21:23. > :21:25.system which defies the usual rules of democratic politics. The
:21:26. > :21:31.agreement was structured in a way to meet the needs at that time. That
:21:32. > :21:36.require power-sharing. It acquired institutions that are unique to the
:21:37. > :21:42.circumstances. When and how those institutions should be altered or
:21:43. > :21:46.modified or changed is up to the people and the political leaders of
:21:47. > :21:49.Northern Ireland. They are the best judges of that. They will make that
:21:50. > :21:58.determination because they are the ones affected by it. I did not
:21:59. > :22:01.expect when I along with my colleagues drafted document that
:22:02. > :22:09.became the Good Friday agreement, we did not expect that that would be
:22:10. > :22:15.written in stone. Northern Ireland's parties have tried to form a more
:22:16. > :22:19.democratic system to sit in cross community opposition. This is a
:22:20. > :22:25.tricky sell at election time. I think the developments with parties
:22:26. > :22:30.are quite interesting, the idea that they would have if not a formal vote
:22:31. > :22:36.sharing agreement across the sectarian divide, is a progressive
:22:37. > :22:40.development. Now they are, some people describe Northern Ireland as
:22:41. > :22:44.almost like two separate electorates, nationalists and
:22:45. > :22:52.unionists but if they cooperate in this way that changes that to some
:22:53. > :22:57.degree. A conflict which once seemed intractable has been largely quiet
:22:58. > :23:01.for the best part of two decades. Nobody is predicting a return to the
:23:02. > :23:03.violence of the past but these elections show that the Northern
:23:04. > :23:10.Ireland political settlement has entered a fragile face. -- says.
:23:11. > :23:15.And Nick Watt is at Stormont for us tonight.
:23:16. > :23:23.The election may not resolve very much, what happens next do you
:23:24. > :23:27.think? If the polls are to be believed then the DUP and Sinn Fein
:23:28. > :23:32.will emerge once again after these elections as the two largest
:23:33. > :23:36.parties. What that means is the onus is on them to restore the
:23:37. > :23:40.power-sharing executive. As things stand it looks pretty difficult to
:23:41. > :23:46.see how they are going to hammer out a deal. What that could mean is that
:23:47. > :23:50.the UK Government on the 45th anniversary of the first imposition
:23:51. > :23:54.of direct rule from London over Northern Ireland at the height of
:23:55. > :23:59.the troubles, that Westminster could once again take charge of all of
:24:00. > :24:03.Northern Ireland. The signs are that James Brokenshire, the Northern
:24:04. > :24:07.Ireland Secretary, is determined to do everything he can to ensure that
:24:08. > :24:13.mammoth step does not have to be taken, so what that means is very
:24:14. > :24:18.serious talks amongst the parties. But they cannot go on forever, the
:24:19. > :24:23.legislation talks about how they can last for a reasonable period of
:24:24. > :24:26.time, it was interesting that Bertie Ahern, the former Irish Prime
:24:27. > :24:30.Minister, said in my interview that perhaps the rules could be tweaked
:24:31. > :24:36.to allow those talks to last as long as six weeks. There is even talk of
:24:37. > :24:40.possibly having a second election to concentrate minds. But I have to
:24:41. > :24:44.say, in the rain here in Northern Ireland I do not truly detect much
:24:45. > :24:52.appetite for yet another election. Thank you. You can see a combines a
:24:53. > :24:53.guide to the parties and candidates in tomorrow's election on the BBC
:24:54. > :24:55.News website. One thing about President Trump
:24:56. > :24:57.that everyone will agree on is that he has smashed
:24:58. > :24:59.the old rules of political communication, he's dispensed
:25:00. > :25:01.with the conventions of political spin and obfuscation,
:25:02. > :25:03.and re-set the relationship Now there is one man who did more
:25:04. > :25:10.than anyone to expose the nonsenses of those old rules,
:25:11. > :25:13.Armando Iannucci, the creator of The Thick Of It, bitingly
:25:14. > :25:16.satirising political spin and the clenched-butt message
:25:17. > :25:19.control of New Labour. And, back in the '90s
:25:20. > :25:22.producing The Day Today, parodying programmes like this,
:25:23. > :25:24.with fake earnestness, Susanna has broken
:25:25. > :25:29.through to the front line, This is the very heart
:25:30. > :25:36.of the conflict. The men here have been fighting
:25:37. > :25:40.nonstop for three days. We drove in at night,
:25:41. > :25:42.straight into the The air now is thick
:25:43. > :25:50.with what they call We are under strict
:25:51. > :25:55.instructions not to With no cover, we run across open
:25:56. > :26:06.space to a nearby house. We found an injured
:26:07. > :26:09.man, we did our best. There was a family
:26:10. > :26:13.sheltering in the back We had no tounge in common
:26:14. > :26:17.but through the universal language of mutual need,
:26:18. > :26:22.I knew she was saying, come, set your equipment up in our refuge,
:26:23. > :26:25.the world must see this mess. These brave people
:26:26. > :26:27.are now sleeping but they know that tomorrow our aerials
:26:28. > :26:30.and transmitters could make this Well, Armando Iannucci is with me -
:26:31. > :26:39.the world has changed since The Day Today,
:26:40. > :26:41.and The Thick Of It, and indeed since Veep -
:26:42. > :26:55.the series he created in the US. For him, the world and comedy? As
:26:56. > :27:01.you look at the world are you laughing at politics? No. I should
:27:02. > :27:08.be but, I am an avid watcher of political shows. It is how you are
:27:09. > :27:15.so good I admit mimicking. I got heavily involved in watching
:27:16. > :27:19.American election coverage until the result and then I actually could not
:27:20. > :27:25.watch television for about a week or indeed read a newspaper. You are on
:27:26. > :27:28.Twitter a lot talking about Donald Trump, we had Tom Friedman at the
:27:29. > :27:33.New York Times on the programme and said if you try to take the guy on
:27:34. > :27:41.he will suck your brain out and I wonder... That is his genius I think
:27:42. > :27:45.the great mistake is to portray him as an idiot. Because he's not. He
:27:46. > :27:49.knows what he's doing and he's very clever, he's a very clever salesman
:27:50. > :27:54.and that is what he has been doing for the last year and a half,
:27:55. > :27:59.selling this model of the successful businessman believes everything he
:28:00. > :28:07.says and is persuadable enough to get a sizeable amount of the
:28:08. > :28:13.electorate to vote for him. How did we get here? Let me put a suggestion
:28:14. > :28:18.to you, you spent the 2000's mockingly controlled and careful
:28:19. > :28:24.politics of new Labour, the message clearly donated, the PC stuff. And
:28:25. > :28:32.the public rebelled against it, they took your message and said... Are
:28:33. > :28:38.you saying I am responsible for Donald Trump? No, but you have to be
:28:39. > :28:41.careful what you wish for. Some of The Thick Of It arose from genuine
:28:42. > :28:46.frustration and anger, in my case that we could go to war with Iraq
:28:47. > :28:50.despite millions of protests on the street and every expert saying it
:28:51. > :28:54.would be a disaster and it proved the case. I took that sense of
:28:55. > :28:58.frustration, the sense that politicians were not connecting with
:28:59. > :29:02.the people and produced something like The Thick Of It which was also
:29:03. > :29:05.looking at the notion that politicians were concentrating more
:29:06. > :29:14.on a smaller and smaller group of people, the middle England, the
:29:15. > :29:20.squeezed middle. The tiny amount of people who can swing an election. In
:29:21. > :29:24.the course of doing that taking for granted everyone else. And as the
:29:25. > :29:30.years have gone by, that group of people we have taken for granted is
:29:31. > :29:35.becoming 85% which is why you get the frustration. You told the
:29:36. > :29:38.Financial Times in 2012, you said all of this, seething anger,
:29:39. > :29:41.everything has become poorer lies to, people do not mind system is
:29:42. > :29:45.being held up to ridicule because it articulates what they are feeling.
:29:46. > :29:49.But you have just given an accountant of people who felt cut
:29:50. > :29:53.off from politics, that is what the populists as people call them, that
:29:54. > :29:59.is the appeal, that is what Donald Trump says, they forgot the rust
:30:00. > :30:04.belt of America. But you do not like Trump and are not a fan, so the
:30:05. > :30:08.people who were left out did not like the things you wanted, they
:30:09. > :30:15.wanted other stuff. People were being left out on the right and left
:30:16. > :30:20.which is why in the UK we have Momentum and Ukip, and the rise of
:30:21. > :30:25.personalities. Instead of parties we have got Jeremy Corbyn's Labour and
:30:26. > :30:29.Boris Johnson conservatism and Theresa May conservatism, we have
:30:30. > :30:34.got factions, nothing which resembles the two or three party
:30:35. > :30:40.system we had in the 50s and 60s through to the 70s. You mention
:30:41. > :30:48.Jeremy Corbyn, one of the things you parodied was the severe control of
:30:49. > :30:50.pagers and people having to give out the line. Nobody would say that
:30:51. > :30:56.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour is controlled. Does it work or does it
:30:57. > :31:02.not work? What happens is you get this frustration with the intense
:31:03. > :31:05.media management, people are hungry for something that is entirely
:31:06. > :31:09.different which is why we go to Boris Johnson because he mumbles and
:31:10. > :31:14.has hilarious hair or Jeremy Corbyn because he wears a vest and has a
:31:15. > :31:18.beard. That has an instant appeal and I can see why it has an instant
:31:19. > :31:23.appeal. Then you get to the point of trying to work out how you can
:31:24. > :31:28.actually control a party and get back into government and that is
:31:29. > :31:32.when the chaos approached the politics does not work. You have
:31:33. > :31:38.lampooned politicians, do you respect or pity them at all, do you
:31:39. > :31:48.basically, because a lot of them are lovely people...
:31:49. > :31:55.I find the most sympathetic characters in The Thick Of It the
:31:56. > :32:00.politicians. It is the strange young people she surrounds herself with
:32:01. > :32:05.who have a degree in PPE from Oxford and very little else who are trying
:32:06. > :32:14.to run her department that I think is the real danger. You took some of
:32:15. > :32:19.the humour to the states with Veep, about a vice president who wants to
:32:20. > :32:22.be president. Is it exactly the same, you, a British guy, from
:32:23. > :32:28.Scotland, you can take the same humour and it works there or did you
:32:29. > :32:38.have to employ lots of writers. I might be deported if I do it now.
:32:39. > :32:42.But it is still going, you are not involved any more? After four years
:32:43. > :32:46.of jet lag and flying backwards and forwards, I think it is a British
:32:47. > :32:52.thing, we only do three or four series of something but in America
:32:53. > :32:58.you are expected to do 29 series of 13 episodes a year and then died.
:32:59. > :33:05.What about news. The Day Today, have you seen any improvements in the way
:33:06. > :33:07.news is covered? What is interesting is the whole business of fake news.
:33:08. > :33:11.The fact that the Internet now allows anyone saying anything to
:33:12. > :33:16.make it look as valid as the Telegraph or the Guardian or the BBC
:33:17. > :33:22.website, because it is there in typeface. That is a real problem. I
:33:23. > :33:28.think what the rise of Trump or his attack on the news may do is provoke
:33:29. > :33:34.people like you into thinking afresh about how you make the news, how you
:33:35. > :33:37.shoulder the news isn't fake. I felt it was interesting the advice he had
:33:38. > :33:43.yesterday following journalists in the White House. -- you had
:33:44. > :33:49.yesterday. People want to come to a place which has a heritage. It is
:33:50. > :33:53.important for the established news programmes to show the decisions you
:33:54. > :34:01.have to make on a daily basis. Could you make a comedy like The Thick Of
:34:02. > :34:04.It now? I think it would be very difficult and I am not inclined to
:34:05. > :34:07.you because I am more interested in trying to energise 16 and
:34:08. > :34:11.17-year-olds into politics. That is the frightening thing. They don't
:34:12. > :34:16.vote, well, they cannot because they are 16 and 17 but 18-year-olds do
:34:17. > :34:20.not vote in the numbers that people over 35 and 40 vote and I think that
:34:21. > :34:23.is because they have been turned off by party politics. It was really
:34:24. > :34:28.interesting in the Scottish referendum having the votes for 16
:34:29. > :34:31.and 17-year-olds, because it galvanised them and told them their
:34:32. > :34:40.view was important and it made them examine the issues and I only wish
:34:41. > :34:42.that opportunity had been presented to us all in the general election.
:34:43. > :34:43.Armando Iannucci, thank you for talking to us.
:34:44. > :34:46.Blasphemy is one of the most emotive issues in the Muslim world -
:34:47. > :34:48.particularly in Pakistan where it's legally punishable by death.
:34:49. > :34:51.Though no-one there has been executed for it -
:34:52. > :34:52.many accused of it have been lynched.
:34:53. > :34:55.And one man - Mumtaz Qadri - killed a politician
:34:56. > :34:57.who simply spoke out against the blasphemy law
:34:58. > :34:59.and remains a hero to many for that murder.
:35:00. > :35:00.Qadri was executed by the Pakistani state
:35:01. > :35:05.Secunder Kermani went along to the events commemorating him -
:35:06. > :35:07.to try and explore what's behind his popularity -
:35:08. > :35:14.and what it tells us about Pakistani society.
:35:15. > :35:19.Thousands turn out to honour a convicted killer.
:35:20. > :35:22.They're here in support of a man called Mumtaz Qadri,
:35:23. > :35:26.executed last year for murdering a high-profile Pakistani politician
:35:27. > :35:30.who was trying to reform the country's blasphemy laws.
:35:31. > :35:33.The authorities executed Mumtaz Qadri on the 29th
:35:34. > :35:35.of February last year, perhaps thinking the fact
:35:36. > :35:38.it was a leap year would make it harder for his supporters
:35:39. > :35:45.The figure of Mumtaz Qadri and the issue of blasphemy has
:35:46. > :35:52.become symbolic of the tensions at the heart of Pakistan's identity.
:35:53. > :35:54.Earlier in the week we visited the shrine that houses
:35:55. > :36:01.They are also constructing a mosque and a seminary here.
:36:02. > :36:03.Built with donations from the public, it receives
:36:04. > :36:08.a steady stream of visitors of all ages.
:36:09. > :36:12.Mumtaz Qadri was a police bodyguard who shot the politician he was meant
:36:13. > :36:16.But his supporters don't see him as a traitor,
:36:17. > :36:19.rather as someone who died trying to preserve Pakistan's Islamic
:36:20. > :36:22.character, exemplified in their view by a law that holds blasphemy
:36:23. > :36:53.The adoration for Mumtaz Qadri is matched by a hatred of politicians.
:36:54. > :36:56.Today at the rally in honour of Mumtaz Qadri, speakers railed
:36:57. > :36:59.against the Prime Minister and the opposition, portraying
:37:00. > :37:06.For the crowds gathered here, blasphemy isn't just a religious
:37:07. > :37:11.This is a kind of populist movement dedicated to opposing
:37:12. > :37:19.what they see as a more secular liberal political establishment.
:37:20. > :37:22.Dr Ashraf Jalali is one of the leading figures
:37:23. > :38:00.He sees himself as part of the battle for Pakistan's soul.
:38:01. > :38:02.Over the past decade, globalisation has brought Western
:38:03. > :38:04.culture more visibly to Pakistan, with a growing number
:38:05. > :38:11.of shopping malls, seminars and cable TV channels.
:38:12. > :38:19.That has accentuated cultural divisions within the country.
:38:20. > :38:22.This represents the divide which we have in our society
:38:23. > :38:24.and I think that divide is right, you know, with the establishment,
:38:25. > :38:28.Pakistan as a post-colonial state, because I think there are people
:38:29. > :38:31.who feel that Pakistan should become a democratic secular country,
:38:32. > :38:34.and there are others who believe that Pakistan should
:38:35. > :38:41.I think that is a consistently, I think there is no consensus
:38:42. > :38:44.in society but the state, the nature of state should be
:38:45. > :38:55.And the blasphemy law actually sharpens that divide in society.
:38:56. > :38:58.Whilst the religious right complain they are being marginalised,
:38:59. > :39:01.it is often the most vulnerable in society that are affected
:39:02. > :39:09.Mumtaz Qadri's victim was speaking out in favour of a Christian woman
:39:10. > :39:12.sentenced to death for supposedly committing blasphemy in an argument
:39:13. > :39:19.Since he was murdered, she has remained in jail.
:39:20. > :39:23.An appeal due to take place last year was delayed and her family fear
:39:24. > :39:49.judges are too afraid to hear the case.
:39:50. > :39:51.There is also now growing concern that allegations of blasphemy
:39:52. > :39:55.are being used to discredit critics of the state.
:39:56. > :39:58.In January this year, a group of liberal activists were abducted.
:39:59. > :40:04.Many believe the intelligence services were responsible.
:40:05. > :40:06.As crowds gather demanding their release, a counter
:40:07. > :40:10.campaign sprang up accusing them of blasphemy.
:40:11. > :40:12.Since they were freed, none of them have been willing
:40:13. > :40:16.to say who detained then, but one, now out of Pakistan,
:40:17. > :40:18.agreed to speak about the impact of the allegations on him
:40:19. > :40:40.In a society we have any allegation taken so seriously,
:40:41. > :40:43.so in future you say something, you do something,
:40:44. > :40:55.you are already discredited in the eyes of the people.
:40:56. > :40:57.So people see you like this person who has committed blasphemy.
:40:58. > :40:59.Next year, Pakistan will hold a general election
:41:00. > :41:01.and Mumtaz Qadri's supporters are launching their
:41:02. > :41:07.Whilst unlikely to gather many seats, they will make it difficult
:41:08. > :41:09.for anyone to challenge the prevailing notions of blasphemy.
:41:10. > :41:18.We leave you with news that Disney is to feature its first
:41:19. > :41:20.gay movie character, with a love scene no less,
:41:21. > :41:24.The film in question is the live action remake
:41:25. > :41:26.of Beauty And The Beast, Disney's exploration of
:41:27. > :41:32.The character in question is Lefou, the sidekick of the film's alpha
:41:33. > :41:38.And as fans of the 1991 cartoon version will know,
:41:39. > :41:40.this development isn't a huge surprise.
:41:41. > :41:46.# For there's no man in town half as manly
:41:47. > :41:52.# You can ask any Tom, Dick or Stanley
:41:53. > :41:59.# And they'll tell you whose team they'd prefer to be on
:42:00. > :42:07.# No one's got a swell cleft in his chin like Gaston
:42:08. > :42:10.# Not a bit of him's scraggly or scrawny
:42:11. > :42:14.# And every last inch of me's covered with hair