:00:00. > :00:00.The CIA can apparently do some amazing stuff,
:00:00. > :00:11.like turn your TV into a microphone and listen in.
:00:12. > :00:19.But now their secret code has leaked.
:00:20. > :00:26.This seems to be an incredibly damaging leak in terms of the
:00:27. > :00:30.tactics, techniques, procedures and tools that were used by the Central
:00:31. > :00:32.intelligence agency to conduct legitimate foreign intelligence.
:00:33. > :00:36.If the leaks are real, it's highly embarrassing
:00:37. > :00:49.We will ask the journalist Glenn Greenwald whether we should be
:00:50. > :00:51.worried by the CIA's ability to hack, or its inability to keep its
:00:52. > :00:52.own secrets? Defeat for the Prime
:00:53. > :00:55.Minister in the Lords. They want Parliament to vote
:00:56. > :00:58.on the final Brexit deal. Does that make sense,
:00:59. > :01:00.or screw up the negotiation? Gina Miller and Theresa
:01:01. > :01:02.Villiers will tell us. The day before the Budget,
:01:03. > :01:19.we're inside Cumbria County Council We can't go on like this. I don't
:01:20. > :01:21.think we can continue like this, as councils up and down the country.
:01:22. > :01:25.And Viewsnight looks on the bright side of life.
:01:26. > :01:32.Now, imagine we were to treat people the way most of us really are.
:01:33. > :01:33.Pretty nice. Creative. And more than willing to contribute to the common
:01:34. > :01:40.good. We've had the Chelsea Manning leaks,
:01:41. > :01:44.then came Edward Snowdon, and today another huge Wikileaks
:01:45. > :01:46.data dump - they're calling it Vault 7, and they say it's from a division
:01:47. > :01:50.at the heart of the CIA. Thousands of documents,
:01:51. > :01:52.millions of lines of code - and, if it is all genuine,
:01:53. > :01:55.it shows the extraordinary array of hacking and spying tools
:01:56. > :01:58.available to the CIA. Some of it's colourful -
:01:59. > :02:04.the ability to infect a Samsung TV and turn it into a microphone that
:02:05. > :02:09.records conversations, for example. The British apparently
:02:10. > :02:12.helped with that. The CIA won't confirm
:02:13. > :02:14.the authenticity of any of it, Is it reasonable for the CIA
:02:15. > :02:21.to have these abilities? And the second is, can't the CIA
:02:22. > :02:27.guard any of its own secrets? If it is incapable of doing so,
:02:28. > :02:30.should it harbour software that could allow massive abuse by those
:02:31. > :02:49.with malign intent? The documents are purportedly from
:02:50. > :02:53.the CIA's centre. Intelligence. 7918 documents with many attachments.
:02:54. > :02:58.Wikileaks say it is only part of what it intends to publish. The rise
:02:59. > :03:04.of connected devices has promised intelligence agencies like the CIA a
:03:05. > :03:07.new golden age of spy craft, where every home is filled with all sorts
:03:08. > :03:16.of objects that can be enlisted to gather data against their owners.
:03:17. > :03:21.What Wikileaks have got details of is how the CIA or doing this and the
:03:22. > :03:26.very computer code they are using. This seems to be an incredibly
:03:27. > :03:30.damaging leak in terms of the tactics, procedures and tools that
:03:31. > :03:35.were used by the CIA to conduct legitimate foreign intelligence. In
:03:36. > :03:41.other words, it has made my country and my country's friends less safe.
:03:42. > :03:45.For example, the Wikileaks document suggests that the CIA have bypassed
:03:46. > :03:49.the encryption on android mobile phone messaging apps like WhatsApp,
:03:50. > :03:54.and collect audio and messaging traffic before it is encrypted.
:03:55. > :03:58.These are wraps which many people used to relay sensitive information
:03:59. > :04:03.because they believe they are impenetrable. One technique,
:04:04. > :04:10.code-named weeping Angel, can turn a Samsung smart TV in a target's live
:04:11. > :04:16.living room can turn it into a microphone. This was apparently
:04:17. > :04:20.developed with the help of the UK's GCHQ. Wikileaks say they have got
:04:21. > :04:25.hold of millions of lines of computer code, the CIA's tool box of
:04:26. > :04:30.tricks and hacks. But, they say, they won't be releasing what they
:04:31. > :04:34.call these armed cyber weapons until a consensus emerges on how they can
:04:35. > :04:38.be dealt with. How they can be a moist and disarmed. If the data in
:04:39. > :04:43.these documents is verified -- how they can be analysed. It will add to
:04:44. > :04:46.the damage done to Western intelligence agencies by Chelsea
:04:47. > :04:51.Manning and Edward Snowden. We don't know how this information got out.
:04:52. > :04:56.One former director believes that a big danger to secrecy is cultural.
:04:57. > :05:02.In order to do this kind of stuff, we have to recruit from a certain
:05:03. > :05:04.demographic, I don't mean to judge them, there is a group of
:05:05. > :05:09.millennials and they simply have different understandings of the
:05:10. > :05:15.words loyalty and secrecy and transparency, than certainly my
:05:16. > :05:20.generation did. And so we bring these folks into the agency, good
:05:21. > :05:23.Americans I can only assume, but again, culturally, they have
:05:24. > :05:27.different instincts than the people who made the decision to hire them.
:05:28. > :05:32.What has supposedly been leaked suggests no limit to the CIA's
:05:33. > :05:36.ambition, like hacking self driving cars as a future weapon for
:05:37. > :05:40.assassination. What is likely to be most damaging is that the US
:05:41. > :05:43.intelligence agencies as yet can't be sure how many of their secrets
:05:44. > :05:46.have been breached. David Grossman. Our Diplomatic Editor,
:05:47. > :05:55.Mark Urban, is with me. This leaking is a big issue, Mark.
:05:56. > :06:02.How and why and how many people have access to all of this staff? Well,
:06:03. > :06:06.the agencies are caught in this terrible place where they've had to
:06:07. > :06:10.create huge the violence programmes, let's face it, that's what we're
:06:11. > :06:15.talking about, in power in awful lot of people to share that information
:06:16. > :06:21.because of the lessons of 9/11 and other systemic failures, they want
:06:22. > :06:25.to get across all of that 800,000 plus people are cleared to
:06:26. > :06:29.top-secret and higher level code in the US. If even a tiny proportion of
:06:30. > :06:34.those or ideological or opposed, greedy, they want to sell the stuff,
:06:35. > :06:38.all working for another power, damage can be done. It is getting
:06:39. > :06:44.harder for intelligence agencies generally to a tribute or track
:06:45. > :06:49.where different, worth and tools... Why take away from my initial read
:06:50. > :06:54.of this, the most interesting stuff was this Tom Burridge group, a group
:06:55. > :07:02.in the CIA that harvest other states's cyber tactics to use by the
:07:03. > :07:08.CIA in deniable attacks. Add to that that we now know that many of these
:07:09. > :07:12.cyber attack tools with if you like an American forensic signature are
:07:13. > :07:16.in the hands of Wikileaks and who knows who else, and the wilderness
:07:17. > :07:22.of mirrors about attributing cyber attacks, who the hell has done this?
:07:23. > :07:23.We saw this with the Democrats this last summer, it becomes harder and
:07:24. > :07:24.harder to work out. Bruce Schneier is a security
:07:25. > :07:26.technologist and Harvard Fellow. I spoke to him earlier,
:07:27. > :07:29.and I asked him if this I mean, certainly whenever
:07:30. > :07:36.classified documents are released by an intelligence agency,
:07:37. > :07:38.it is a disaster. These are particularly sensitive,
:07:39. > :07:41.they are hacking tools, And if I was inside the CIA, I would
:07:42. > :07:47.call this a disaster as well. We have this leak, it
:07:48. > :07:52.seems to be one thing What's happened to the culture
:07:53. > :07:57.of secrecy that you would expect It's not the culture of secrecy,
:07:58. > :08:03.it's the culture of competing. These documents are on computers,
:08:04. > :08:09.they are on networks, They are vulnerable
:08:10. > :08:11.for outsiders hacking, they are vulnerable for insiders
:08:12. > :08:13.taking them and leaving. And we see this against the CIA,
:08:14. > :08:19.the NSA, a Panamanian law firm, the Democratic National Committee,
:08:20. > :08:23.climate change researchers, again and again and again -
:08:24. > :08:26.individuals, organisations and nation states are hacking these
:08:27. > :08:28.documents, and in many cases, Michael Hayden, former
:08:29. > :08:33.Director of the CIA, told the BBC earlier that he thought
:08:34. > :08:37.there may be something about a kind of a culture
:08:38. > :08:42.of the people who you need to recruit to be kind of working
:08:43. > :08:45.the computers and devising all these tools in the first place,
:08:46. > :08:47.that perhaps they just have a different view of their life
:08:48. > :08:50.and their career that say the old spooks did
:08:51. > :08:52.say a generation ago. You know, maybe that is
:08:53. > :08:54.generalising from one example, from Edward Snowden,
:08:55. > :08:56.maybe from two, This is probably an outsider,
:08:57. > :09:05.not an insider, like the NSA equation group documents were hacked
:09:06. > :09:07.by the Shadow Brokers. You know, it's really
:09:08. > :09:08.hard to generalise. The only thing we know is that these
:09:09. > :09:13.documents are more vulnerable because there are on networks,
:09:14. > :09:16.which means that individuals Now, look, how dangerous is it that
:09:17. > :09:21.a lot of these CIA tools are now out How much damage can those
:09:22. > :09:26.other people do if those And near as we can tell,
:09:27. > :09:38.they've leaked for a while. Wikileaks said that they have been
:09:39. > :09:41.passed around for a while. Now we can start getting security,
:09:42. > :09:45.now that we know what the attacks are, we can fix these systems
:09:46. > :09:48.and be less probable. I mean, yes, it's bad that these
:09:49. > :09:54.attacks are out there, The CIA knew that it was most likely
:09:55. > :10:02.that other countries did as well. So getting them in the hands
:10:03. > :10:05.of the public so they can be fixed is really a measure
:10:06. > :10:07.of making things better. Bruce Schneier, thank
:10:08. > :10:18.you for talking to me. Bruce also told me he always puts
:10:19. > :10:25.something over the cameras on his devices to make sure they are not
:10:26. > :10:28.him. Not because of the Russians or the Chinese, but because of teenage
:10:29. > :10:29.hackers. And Glenn Greenwald
:10:30. > :10:37.is the journalist that campaigns Good evening. Have you seen anything
:10:38. > :10:41.in these leaks that make you think the CIA was doing anything wrong?
:10:42. > :10:49.Firstly, very significant revelation is that the CIA actively encourages
:10:50. > :10:54.and at times even pays various companies and organisations to
:10:55. > :10:57.preserve vulnerability that there are able to exploit and a lot of
:10:58. > :11:03.these software programmes. So not only they can go through these back
:11:04. > :11:08.doors that they make sure exist, but so can hackers, or other nations.
:11:09. > :11:13.The CIA and NSA making the internet Moran says for everybody. I think
:11:14. > :11:22.that is very disturbing -- more on safe. So maybe they should tell the
:11:23. > :11:25.Googles and the apples where the vulnerabilities are rather fun
:11:26. > :11:31.exploit them. Have you seen any evidence that this thing on
:11:32. > :11:35.televisions or driverless cars, have you seen any evidence that these
:11:36. > :11:40.have been applied to good people all merry people, as opposed to what
:11:41. > :11:44.President Trump would call the bad hombres -- ordinary people. Do you
:11:45. > :11:50.think they have been misusing these tools? One of the problems with
:11:51. > :11:52.having a massive surveillance state, intelligence community, that
:11:53. > :11:57.operates almost entirely in the dark is that we know very little about
:11:58. > :12:02.what they actually do. There is very little accountability war over side,
:12:03. > :12:06.which is why when we did this reporting, -- or oversight. Even
:12:07. > :12:09.people on the intelligence committee said, we didn't even know that these
:12:10. > :12:16.were taking place. So based on the first sort of batch of documents
:12:17. > :12:19.that Wikileaks have released, we know the CIA have extraordinary
:12:20. > :12:24.abilities that they are exploiting. We don't know against who they are
:12:25. > :12:28.using it, but the history of the CIA is one filled with abuse, and we
:12:29. > :12:31.ought to know more about why they are using get. Have you really seen
:12:32. > :12:36.any thing that surprises you in terms of a skill or a talent or a
:12:37. > :12:39.tool that they have? In a lot of ways, this is what you would expect
:12:40. > :12:50.a really top-class spying agency to be doing, isn't it? I think some of
:12:51. > :12:54.the methods that they use, and the extent of control they are able to
:12:55. > :13:00.obtain over people's android phones, the progress that they have made
:13:01. > :13:03.into people's iPhones has actually surprised people who work in the
:13:04. > :13:07.security field. It's not shocking that the CIA is trying to do it,
:13:08. > :13:11.although I don't think a lot of people knew that the CIA has such a
:13:12. > :13:15.vast surveillance apparatus. They assumed that the NSA with the agency
:13:16. > :13:20.that uses billions of dollars, so that it is rising. It is not
:13:21. > :13:25.shocking the CIA is trying, but it has been surprising the way that
:13:26. > :13:29.they are in able to invade these devices and take full control of the
:13:30. > :13:34.programmes intended to keep them out. The fundamental argument is, do
:13:35. > :13:39.we want intelligence agencies who can do clever stuff to spy on people
:13:40. > :13:44.from abroad, preferably, who are doing or mean us harm, or do we not
:13:45. > :13:48.want intelligence agencies to do that? We have always come back to
:13:49. > :13:52.this and I have spoken to you about it before. In the end, if you are
:13:53. > :13:55.going to have intelligence agencies, you have to let them get on with the
:13:56. > :13:58.job and you can't expect them to stand by telling you what they are
:13:59. > :14:04.doing because it isn't going to work if they do that. Yes, I think you
:14:05. > :14:07.know, there is an absolutist way to look at things, which is very
:14:08. > :14:11.simplified. Either they get full secrecy or they have none. And then
:14:12. > :14:15.there's a more sophisticated way to look at it, which we as journalists
:14:16. > :14:21.ought to be adopting, which is, yes, you need some degree of secrecy, but
:14:22. > :14:24.in a democracy, secrecy is extremely corrosive and they dress. And for
:14:25. > :14:29.agencies that we have allowed to operate almost entirely in the dark,
:14:30. > :14:35.as journalists, our objective ought to be to report on what they are
:14:36. > :14:39.doing and cheer from one both is transparency, -- for when there is
:14:40. > :14:41.transparency. That the government try to protect secrecy. As
:14:42. > :14:44.journalists we ought to be devoted to telling the public what these
:14:45. > :15:00.people are doing. Some people say WikiLeaks have been
:15:01. > :15:03.strangely related to Trump, do you think there's anything strange about
:15:04. > :15:07.the timing of this, another difficult week for President Trump
:15:08. > :15:15.and this whole fuss about President Obama and did he tap him. Is this a
:15:16. > :15:22.distraction? It is funny because we always like to look at Russian media
:15:23. > :15:27.and the Arab world and mock them for conspiracies and yet we in the West
:15:28. > :15:31.have are conspiracies. There was a weird timing issues with WikiLeaks,
:15:32. > :15:36.intended to distract, there is always important news going on.
:15:37. > :15:41.WikiLeaks published this material not in a particularly sensitive
:15:42. > :15:45.week. I can assure you it takes some time to process this material and
:15:46. > :15:50.unless we have evidence that WikiLeaks manipulated the timing I
:15:51. > :15:55.do not think we should be assuming that that took place. I do not know
:15:56. > :15:57.of any evidence that says anything like that happened.
:15:58. > :15:59.Theresa May suffered the embarrassment of defeat today.
:16:00. > :16:02.The Lords voted - with a majority of just under 100 -
:16:03. > :16:05.to insist Parliament has the final "meaningful vote" on the deal
:16:06. > :16:09.The PM will whip her MPs to try and overturn this defeat
:16:10. > :16:14.when the Bill comes back to the Commons - probably next week.
:16:15. > :16:17.Now Theresa May is hailed as the most unassailable prime
:16:18. > :16:19.minister we've had for years, a weak opposition, a united party.
:16:20. > :16:22.But, think a little on it, and you remember she has only
:16:23. > :16:25.a small majority in the Commons - so she's vulnerable on all sorts
:16:26. > :16:28.of thorny issues such as Brexit, grammar schools and us
:16:29. > :16:31.That's why some colleagues - including William Hague
:16:32. > :16:34.in his Telegraph column today - have said she should call a general
:16:35. > :16:57.How popular is that opinion amongst conservatives? Downing Street if the
:16:58. > :17:01.William Hague idea short shrift but something of a debate going on
:17:02. > :17:05.involving members of the cabinet about whether an early election may
:17:06. > :17:10.be a good idea. These Cabinet ministers accept and respect Theresa
:17:11. > :17:15.May? Opinion that an election now would be wrong, they say if you did
:17:16. > :17:20.it right now it would seem as if you were doing it for the benefit of the
:17:21. > :17:22.Conservative Party, exploiting Labour Party witnesses at a bad
:17:23. > :17:26.moment for the Labour Party. But these ministers said that over the
:17:27. > :17:30.next couple of years you may be able to mount an argument that it is in
:17:31. > :17:36.the national interest to hold an election before the due date in 2024
:17:37. > :17:40.the they are identified as when the government seeks to introduce the
:17:41. > :17:42.great repeal bill, the legislation that will annul the legislation
:17:43. > :17:48.underpinning our membership of the EU and it will put all that EU
:17:49. > :17:52.legislation, into UK law and then the UK will be able to decide which
:17:53. > :17:57.bits of that legislation it wants to keep. I'm told his ministers have
:17:58. > :18:02.identified a couple of danger points with that legislation. Number one is
:18:03. > :18:05.when it is in the House of Lords, we have seen the House of Lords this
:18:06. > :18:11.week bearing their teeth and there was a feeling in government circles
:18:12. > :18:13.that if the Commons could overturn those amendments Bumble laud them
:18:14. > :18:16.that the Lords would throw in the towel and not want to be accused of
:18:17. > :18:19.thwarting the will of the people on Brexit. There will be no such qualms
:18:20. > :18:23.on the great repeal Bill, they think, and the second danger
:18:24. > :18:26.identified by ministers is that the Scottish Parliament may say that
:18:27. > :18:28.under the original devolution settlement that great repeal Bill
:18:29. > :18:32.would need their consent. As I said, there are a whole series
:18:33. > :18:35.of issues that the Prime Minister may be vulnerable on with such
:18:36. > :18:37.a small majority. A busy College Green
:18:38. > :18:41.here in Westminster is a sign that something
:18:42. > :18:46.is about to happen in Parliament. Tomorrow is budget day,
:18:47. > :18:48.which is a day when the government The whole structure of the day
:18:49. > :18:57.really favours the people in power. It also comes as the Conservative
:18:58. > :19:00.Party's racking up enormous poll leads, consistently in double digits
:19:01. > :19:05.over the Labour Party. But might that mean
:19:06. > :19:07.that we are overstating just how strong Theresa May's
:19:08. > :19:12.position really is? Critically, take a look at the Lords
:19:13. > :19:14.where the government does As of tonight, Theresa May has lost
:19:15. > :19:25.24 votes in the Upper House. Well, we look at issues where we can
:19:26. > :19:28.make a difference and perhaps persuade the House of Commons
:19:29. > :19:30.and the government to think again. Things like the Housing Bill,
:19:31. > :19:32.we've asked the government On trade union legislation,
:19:33. > :19:35.on education. And indeed some of
:19:36. > :19:38.the aspects of Brexit. Indeed, just this evening,
:19:39. > :19:40.the Lords have defeated They've passed an amendment
:19:41. > :19:47.demanding what they call "a meaningful vote" by parliament
:19:48. > :19:50.on the terms of Brexit One of two Lords amendments
:19:51. > :19:58.on the Brexit bill. Everyone in this House knows
:19:59. > :20:01.that we now face the most momentous And this amendment as the Noble Lord
:20:02. > :20:10.has so clearly set out, secures in law the government's
:20:11. > :20:14.commitment, already made to another place, to ensure that Parliament
:20:15. > :20:16.is the ultimate custodian I am in a minority in this House
:20:17. > :20:28.because I support the views of the majority of people
:20:29. > :20:32.in this country. This House is absolutely full
:20:33. > :20:35.of people who still haven't come to terms with the results
:20:36. > :20:36.of the referendum. Well, the effect of these
:20:37. > :20:40.votes is to reopen And so potentially re-empower rebel
:20:41. > :20:43.Tory backbenchers to negotiate If we take the Article 50 Bill,
:20:44. > :20:51.there were small numbers of Conservative rebels on some key
:20:52. > :20:53.issues when the bill went Notably on the rights of EU
:20:54. > :20:59.citizens to remain in the UK and on the Parliamentary vote
:21:00. > :21:02.at the end of the process. It is no coincidence that those
:21:03. > :21:05.are the issues that the Lords has taken up very strongly
:21:06. > :21:07.and is seeking to throw back to the Commons to ask
:21:08. > :21:11.the Commons to think again. And what it is doing really there
:21:12. > :21:14.is facilitating those negotiations If the backbenchers are satisfied,
:21:15. > :21:19.she will get her way. She may need to offer them
:21:20. > :21:22.more assurances in order Theresa May will ask MPs to overturn
:21:23. > :21:27.the peers' amendments. And it is plausible she might not
:21:28. > :21:30.win both of those votes. And that is why the Lords could
:21:31. > :21:39.trouble the government so much. They complain oh, we haven't
:21:40. > :21:41.got the majority, well, this is the first Conservative
:21:42. > :21:43.government never to have had an automatic majority
:21:44. > :21:45.in the House of Lords. But no Labour government ever had
:21:46. > :21:48.a majority in the House of Lords, you win your case, you persuade,
:21:49. > :21:51.you articulate, you make that case. And that is what the government
:21:52. > :21:59.needs to understand and needs to do. But some Tories want
:22:00. > :22:01.a quick election. They say it could mean
:22:02. > :22:03.a bigger Commons majority. And peers don't pick fights
:22:04. > :22:05.over items once they've But at least for now,
:22:06. > :22:09.the government is grinding on. And once the Brexit negotiation
:22:10. > :22:11.starts, a voluntary election Well, as you heard, one test
:22:12. > :22:20.of the Prime Minister's strength comes next week, when Remainer MPs
:22:21. > :22:23.have to decide whether to support her on the Brexit Bill -
:22:24. > :22:26.or to side with the Lords, The issue is whether Parliament
:22:27. > :22:31.should get a meaningful vote on any I'm joined by Gina Miller,
:22:32. > :22:36.who famously brought the legal case for Parliament to have a vote
:22:37. > :22:39.on Article 50. And Theresa Villiers is here -
:22:40. > :22:53.former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers, as we were
:22:54. > :22:58.watching that Lord Heseltine has been sacked as a government adviser
:22:59. > :23:03.because he rebelled on the bill. Is that showing a kind of sensitivity
:23:04. > :23:06.to all this, a bit of brittleness question what Michael Heseltine was
:23:07. > :23:12.a long serving member of the Conservative Party but he's very
:23:13. > :23:16.much out line with the majority feeling within the Conservative
:23:17. > :23:21.Party and indeed within the country. He's not even a member of the
:23:22. > :23:26.government, just an adviser. But you have two kind of show how tough the
:23:27. > :23:31.discipline is going to be? I do not know the circumstances but I think
:23:32. > :23:35.it was always inevitable when he was rebelling on such a crucially
:23:36. > :23:39.important issue. Gina Miller, the idea of a vote at the end of the
:23:40. > :23:43.process, is it the case that you would like parliament to have the
:23:44. > :23:53.option if they do not like the deal Theresa May comes back with, is it
:23:54. > :23:56.the case you would like them to have the option to say let's just take in
:23:57. > :23:58.the EU or have a referendum on staying in rather than going through
:23:59. > :24:02.with Brexit? It is not about what I want, and it is not at the end of
:24:03. > :24:04.the process but in 18 months. We're not talking about the great repeal
:24:05. > :24:08.act, it is in 18 months when Theresa May comes back with that negotiated
:24:09. > :24:11.package. It is only right that Parliament should be involved in
:24:12. > :24:16.that process, that is what my case was about and what all the
:24:17. > :24:19.Brexiteers talked about, Parliamentary sovereignty and
:24:20. > :24:23.parliament having the right to vote and debate. That is what is so great
:24:24. > :24:27.about the House of Lords, they showed it could be done as a level
:24:28. > :24:31.that is civilised and grown up and you could respect the point of view
:24:32. > :24:35.of other people. Are you thinking about another legal case, if two is
:24:36. > :24:40.a major says I'm not interested and I'm going to eat the House of Lords,
:24:41. > :24:47.are you thinking another legal case on this would be due? If you go back
:24:48. > :24:49.to the judgment in my case that the Supreme Court it said only
:24:50. > :24:55.parliament could take away or diminish people's rights. In 18
:24:56. > :24:58.months we will not know what whites have been taken away because we do
:24:59. > :25:01.not have a crystal ball, we do not know what the package will be. If
:25:02. > :25:06.you look at the judgment there is some thinking that if Theresa May
:25:07. > :25:09.bypasses the parliament and does not deliver on a promise, if this
:25:10. > :25:15.amendment does not get in, that there could be a case for us to take
:25:16. > :25:18.back to Parliament, sorry, to the court and say could she act on her
:25:19. > :25:21.own without parliament. Theresa Villiers, I suspect that is not what
:25:22. > :25:26.you want to hear because that would mean a legal argument right at the
:25:27. > :25:30.climax of article 50 negotiations. That is one of the real anxieties
:25:31. > :25:37.about these amendments. Any amendment to what is a simple bill
:25:38. > :25:44.makes it potentially dragging on into the courts. I believe that
:25:45. > :25:50.particularly the amendment passed today is a recipe for stalemate and
:25:51. > :25:54.disruption. I'm sure Gina Miller is entirely sincere in what she's doing
:25:55. > :25:57.but I think many people who backed this amendment today in the House of
:25:58. > :26:01.Lords in the heart of hearts are trying to frustrate the process.
:26:02. > :26:06.They have given themselves the power to veto a to veto leaving without a
:26:07. > :26:12.deal, essentially what they want is to keep us in and this respect the
:26:13. > :26:17.vote. There is a bit of a puzzle, they said they want to be able to
:26:18. > :26:22.veto a non-deal or deal, it could end up just in a twilight zone.
:26:23. > :26:25.Actually the House of Lords cannot do a veto, they can scrutinise and
:26:26. > :26:31.give their opinion but they cannot actually veto something. But if we
:26:32. > :26:35.get back, I do not understand why there's so much of this argument
:26:36. > :26:38.about holding up Brexit because it is the Prime Minister and the
:26:39. > :26:43.government holding up Brexit. Just putting these one is morally right
:26:44. > :26:48.and the other is common sense to have a parliamentary safety net. Put
:26:49. > :26:50.both in and stop the ping-pong between the houses, trigger Article
:26:51. > :26:56.50 and get on with complex negotiations. It is government
:26:57. > :26:59.itself holding up this process. EU nationals, I entirely sympathise
:27:00. > :27:03.with the sentiment of the amendment, but this is not the vehicle to deal
:27:04. > :27:08.with this question. It has to be dealt with by laterally as part of
:27:09. > :27:13.negotiations. It makes the end of the process unmanageable, if the
:27:14. > :27:17.executive does not have the power to save this is the deal or we walk out
:27:18. > :27:22.which is effectively what Theresa May wants to be able to do this
:27:23. > :27:26.right with the amendment this evening a key defect is that it
:27:27. > :27:29.seeks to prevent the Prime Minister from deciding the deal on the table
:27:30. > :27:34.is not good enough and I will go back recommending leaving without a
:27:35. > :27:39.deal. Not being able to walk away from negotiations means that Europe
:27:40. > :27:43.has you over a barrel. I'm afraid we need to leave it there. That is the
:27:44. > :27:45.nub of the argument that has been raging on. Thank you both.
:27:46. > :27:48.Well, austerity may have been pushed out of the headlines lately,
:27:49. > :27:51.but anyone working in a local authority knows that cuts to council
:27:52. > :27:55.So to help get us all in the mood for tomorrow's Budget,
:27:56. > :27:59.we embedded Katie Razzall with Cumbria County Council -
:28:00. > :28:12.one of those hoping for a sliver of help from the Chancellor.
:28:13. > :28:22.We are in uncharted territory, really, for local government.
:28:23. > :28:24.Sparsely populated, flood-prone Cumbria.
:28:25. > :28:29.A county where cuts now threaten real upset,
:28:30. > :28:40.I think local government is experiencing an existential crisis.
:28:41. > :28:43.In Cumbria, what we're looking at really is what I would
:28:44. > :28:47.Stuart Young is the leader of Cumbria County Council.
:28:48. > :28:50.I joined him this morning at the start of his day.
:28:51. > :28:53.A Labour politician at the helm as the eighth year
:28:54. > :29:03.We have already had to make ?198 million worth of savings since 2010.
:29:04. > :29:08.If there is anything that keeps me awake at night,
:29:09. > :29:11.it is, how are we going to find the rest of those savings?
:29:12. > :29:14.Whilst protecting services as much as we possibly can.
:29:15. > :29:22.The council must cut another ?52 million in the next three years.
:29:23. > :29:26.An accountant by trade, for Mr Young, the numbers no longer add up.
:29:27. > :29:34.He agreed to allow Newsnight to accompany him to work
:29:35. > :29:36.where the Labour group run the County Council in a coalition
:29:37. > :29:43.Adult social care is now the largest part of our budget.
:29:44. > :29:46.I mean, obviously, like everywhere else, people are living longer.
:29:47. > :29:50.The problems are not just in social care.
:29:51. > :29:53.And the Council has already made cuts across the board,
:29:54. > :30:08.This is our first proper meeting, I guess.
:30:09. > :30:09.The Government wants local authorities to
:30:10. > :30:13.At the moment, it plans to stop its funding grant
:30:14. > :30:17.I think officers are really keen to see what emerges tomorrow
:30:18. > :30:26.It is meeting after meeting for the leader.
:30:27. > :30:29.This with the Councillor in charge of adult social care,
:30:30. > :30:34.which costs the authority around ?200 million a year.
:30:35. > :30:37.I think it is biting everyday now when a new referral comes
:30:38. > :30:40.Can you keep providing a good service to people
:30:41. > :30:49.I think the answer to that has to be no.
:30:50. > :30:54.When you've got demand growing year-on-year.
:30:55. > :30:57.There has to be a limit on how much you can take out without it
:30:58. > :31:02.being clearly felt by the recipients of that service.
:31:03. > :31:04.You can tell someone tall has been here, Joyce!
:31:05. > :31:23.She is only able to stay in her own home with the help
:31:24. > :31:30.I can get to the cooker, but I can't reach it.
:31:31. > :31:37.So they do my meals, so I find it about right four times a day.
:31:38. > :31:40.What does it mean to you to have this care?
:31:41. > :31:51.I would probably have to go into permanent care otherwise.
:31:52. > :31:56.I think it's terrible that the cutting is happening.
:31:57. > :32:00.My mum and dad, what if they don't get care, I can't imagine no one
:32:01. > :32:03.getting the standard of care that we give to our clients.
:32:04. > :32:06.Joyce, are you OK if I go through your care plan and just
:32:07. > :32:08.Heather runs one of the companies contracted
:32:09. > :32:16.You have male and female carers, and you're happy with all of them?
:32:17. > :32:21.If you think about it, they haven't got anything I want,
:32:22. > :32:23.and I haven't got anything they want any more!
:32:24. > :32:27.The council here is putting up council tax, in part to raise
:32:28. > :32:38.But in these rural counties, it's more expensive to provide.
:32:39. > :32:42.The council is keeping its cards close to its chest ahead
:32:43. > :32:45.But not everyone agrees crisis point is upon them.
:32:46. > :32:47.When we were in control, we saved ?55 million
:32:48. > :32:51.There was a lot of fat there to be cut.
:32:52. > :32:58.And this administration, this current administration has
:32:59. > :33:01.wasted millions upon millions of pounds worth of taxpayers' money.
:33:02. > :33:03.So there's still money out there to be found,
:33:04. > :33:11.I think as we look forward to the next three years
:33:12. > :33:13.and possibly beyond, I think many of us are
:33:14. > :33:15.wondering really where this is all going to end.
:33:16. > :33:21.I think local government is experiencing an existential crisis.
:33:22. > :33:24.And it is difficult to see how some of the services
:33:25. > :33:26.are going to survive at all in the face
:33:27. > :33:41.We are briefly going to go back to the breaking news is that we
:33:42. > :33:45.mentioned earlier that Michael has so kind has been sacked as a
:33:46. > :33:52.Government adviser after rebelling on the Brexit vote. Why did they do
:33:53. > :33:56.it, Nick? The man who brought down Britain's first woman Prime Minister
:33:57. > :34:01.has just been sacked by Britain's second woman Prime Minister! He had
:34:02. > :34:05.five jobs, apparently. They are absolutely determined that this
:34:06. > :34:12.bill, which Michael has all kinds or to amend, must emerge completely
:34:13. > :34:17.clean. -- had sought to amend. If there were any weaknesses to be
:34:18. > :34:21.exploited by our negotiating partners, and we can turn to the son
:34:22. > :34:27.of an old ally of Michael has all-time was Mike, Robin Walker, the
:34:28. > :34:31.son of the Peter Walker, he is saying that if as the lords did
:34:32. > :34:35.tonight you will allow Parliament to have the right to veto the bill,
:34:36. > :34:36.that would create all sorts of problems that would be exploited by
:34:37. > :34:38.Michel Barnier. And tonight, we have the young Dutch
:34:39. > :34:42.writer, Rutger Bregman to offer us an optimistic take
:34:43. > :34:44.on the state of humankind. He's a man with a lot of ideas -
:34:45. > :34:47.the writer of a book called Utopia for Realists,
:34:48. > :34:49.we'll speak to him It's time to assume
:34:50. > :34:56.the good in each other. I've got two minutes
:34:57. > :34:59.to remind you of the most If you start paying attention,
:35:00. > :36:59.you see it everywhere. Rutger Bregman, author
:37:00. > :37:02.of Utopia for Realists. The book reflects his optimistic
:37:03. > :37:05.take - but is a kind of manifesto It suggests a much
:37:06. > :37:11.shorter working week, and a basic income -
:37:12. > :37:13.paid to everyone, That's the Utopia bit,
:37:14. > :37:29.less clear on the realism. Is it? Well, I suppose on the basic
:37:30. > :37:34.income, a lot of people have tried to make it work and do the maths on
:37:35. > :37:39.it. You have to leave it so low that you leave a lot of people very poor,
:37:40. > :37:43.or so high that you can't afford it. I don't think so. Basic income is
:37:44. > :37:49.the least radical of the ideas in my book. We have a lot of evidence from
:37:50. > :37:52.the 70s, in Canada they did an experiment for four years, they
:37:53. > :37:57.found that people got healthier, and didn't quit their jobs. People have
:37:58. > :38:03.a lot of objections. It was a town near Winnipeg. It was subsidised
:38:04. > :38:06.from the outside, that one. It wasn't self financing. The
:38:07. > :38:10.government paid for the basic income. As soon as you have a system
:38:11. > :38:14.where there isn't an outsider, you know, a Martian to come in and pay
:38:15. > :38:23.for it all, it is very different, isn't it? I don't think so. If you
:38:24. > :38:25.look at poverty, for example. It is hugely expensive, in terms of higher
:38:26. > :38:29.health care spending, crime, high dropout rates. A study in the US
:38:30. > :38:34.found that it costs about $500 billion, just child poverty, and it
:38:35. > :38:38.will cost us billions to eradicate poverty completely. It is easier to
:38:39. > :38:44.get rid of it and keep on combating it. You are giving me a subsidy but
:38:45. > :38:49.I don't need one. But you are paying for it, don't worry! Then you have
:38:50. > :38:55.very high taxes, and people like me might say, why am I giving this
:38:56. > :38:59.money and paying an 80% tax rate? That is why nobody has ever done it.
:39:00. > :39:06.People have really looked at it and they have come very close. Many
:39:07. > :39:09.people see this as a leftist idea. Milton Friedman, the neoliberal
:39:10. > :39:14.economist, was in favour of this. The right-wing government in Finland
:39:15. > :39:17.is experimenting with it right now. A Conservative senator in Canada is
:39:18. > :39:22.proposing another experiment. Another experiment is going on in
:39:23. > :39:30.Kenya Rednall. Especially after 2016, we need new ideas. That
:39:31. > :39:33.everybody agrees with. We have a lot of evidence from experiments that it
:39:34. > :39:37.is effective, efficient, and we use the money very well. Health care
:39:38. > :39:40.costs go down. Slightly narrower experiments that don't necessarily
:39:41. > :39:45.pay for themselves. You are proposing a 15 hour week as well.
:39:46. > :39:50.That makes it doubly hard to pay for my basic income, because we are all
:39:51. > :39:55.going to be working half as much. I think we need to completely redefine
:39:56. > :40:00.woodworker actually is. So nowadays, according to a recent poll, -- what
:40:01. > :40:06.work actually is. 70% of British workers think that they have a job
:40:07. > :40:12.but doesn't need to exist. It is a waste of time, money and energy.
:40:13. > :40:16.What is going on here that you know, a 28-year-old. Piazon, note that
:40:17. > :40:21.these jobs are not needed. It is not me saying that -- a 28-year-old
:40:22. > :40:26.Dutch person know that these jobs are not needed. Somebody is saying,
:40:27. > :40:30.I'm going to employ these people because it is going to make me or my
:40:31. > :40:35.company money or my country rich. Why do you think we have a huge
:40:36. > :40:40.financial sector? They don't create any well. We have so much energy and
:40:41. > :40:43.talent being wasted right now. What are the bankers going to do? And
:40:44. > :40:47.what is the process where you are going to work out what they are
:40:48. > :40:53.doing? What is the mechanism, is its central planning or a market? If it
:40:54. > :40:57.is a market, they will go straight back into banking. These ideas go
:40:58. > :41:00.through the political divide lying between the left and the right. The
:41:01. > :41:03.left doesn't trust people to make their own choices, and the right
:41:04. > :41:07.things that people have to be forced into work or something else. I think
:41:08. > :41:12.people know perfectly well what to do with their lives. We are not
:41:13. > :41:16.going to live in a big giant commune. What is the bankers going
:41:17. > :41:21.to do, and what is the process going to tell him what to do? It is
:41:22. > :41:24.interesting, you get the stories in magazines, you have got a very rich
:41:25. > :41:29.guy who might decide to quit his job and do what he really wants to. We
:41:30. > :41:32.see it as coming he is a hero coming he's going to do what he really
:41:33. > :41:37.wants to do. What I'm proposing is in a society where that's just
:41:38. > :41:40.completely natural, where we are all trying to contribute in our own way
:41:41. > :41:41.and do what we actually want to do. And that is why it is called Utopia
:41:42. > :41:45.for Realists. Thank you very much. I'm back tomorrow,
:41:46. > :42:05.which is of course Budget Day. Hello. A spell of rain tonight will
:42:06. > :42:06.clear many parts of the UK tomorrow but by no means