:00:00. > :00:09.He took the long road from IRA commander to Deputy First Minister
:00:10. > :00:13.At the end of the day it will be the cutting edge of the IRA that will
:00:14. > :00:14.bring freedom. People look at me in
:00:15. > :00:19.the round and they know that in my younger days I was
:00:20. > :00:23.involved with the IRA but they also know that I've been at the heart
:00:24. > :00:26.of the peace process for over Political leaders from across
:00:27. > :00:29.Britain, America and Ireland have praised Martin McGuinness's
:00:30. > :00:30.contribution to peace. In a way his intrinsic nature never
:00:31. > :00:33.changed from the time he was in the Bogside to the time
:00:34. > :00:38.he was the Deputy First Minister. But what peace is there
:00:39. > :00:40.for the families of innocent I'll be talking to a man whose
:00:41. > :00:45.father took a bullet And what now for the
:00:46. > :00:55.Republican movement. Is Martin McGuinness's dream
:00:56. > :01:05.of a united Ireland getting closer? Finally we won a big tax cut but we
:01:06. > :01:06.can't do that until we keep our promise to repeal and replace the
:01:07. > :01:09.disaster known as ObamaCare. Emily goes in search of the next
:01:10. > :01:12.American health system. TrumpCare is moving
:01:13. > :01:13.in the right direction. They're saying, it was too
:01:14. > :01:17.high, a lot of people And we continue our pastoral care
:01:18. > :01:21.series helping Remoaners Now that we are leaving we can
:01:22. > :01:27.at least have an honest conversation about who we want to come
:01:28. > :01:30.here and how we treat So with my glass half
:01:31. > :01:41.full here's to Brexit. The death of Martin McGuinness,
:01:42. > :01:49.from a rare heart condition, has aroused mixed emotions among
:01:50. > :01:52.former Prime Ministers, political opponents in Northern Ireland
:01:53. > :02:02.and the families of IRA victims. He travelled a long way from a job
:02:03. > :02:06.in a butcher's shop in Derry, to IRA Commander in the city,
:02:07. > :02:08.to a key architect of Northern Ireland's peace,
:02:09. > :02:10.and finally a decade as Deputy First Minister
:02:11. > :02:12.of Northern Ireland, but along that way many innocent
:02:13. > :02:14.people were murdered. From Tony Blair to John Major
:02:15. > :02:16.to Theresa May, the consensus is that without him
:02:17. > :02:18.the Good Friday Agreement The Queen, whom he praised
:02:19. > :02:22.for her contribution to peace, has sent a personal message
:02:23. > :02:25.to his family. Bill Clinton said that he believed
:02:26. > :02:28.in a shared future, and refused However, for many families
:02:29. > :02:33.of the IRA's victims, the past is ever present and some
:02:34. > :02:36.do not even know where In a moment I'll be speaking
:02:37. > :02:40.to Austin Stack, whose father But first Jonathan Powell
:02:41. > :02:45.was the Government's chief negotiator on Northern Ireland
:02:46. > :02:49.from 1997 under Tony Blair. When he first met the IRA leader
:02:50. > :02:52.in October of that year Many years later he invited
:02:53. > :02:56.Martin McGuinness to his wedding. Martin McGuinness's life
:02:57. > :03:08.was an extraordinary journey. As far as the Provisional
:03:09. > :03:17.IRA is concerned the fight will go on until
:03:18. > :03:19.the four demands are met. To hard-line politician
:03:20. > :03:23.in the 1980s. At the end of the day
:03:24. > :03:28.it will be the cutting edge of the IRA which
:03:29. > :03:30.will bring freedom. To uncompromising
:03:31. > :03:31.negotiator in the 1990s. Well, we are not going to give
:03:32. > :03:50.them their new Stormont. And finally Deputy First Minister
:03:51. > :03:52.sharing power with his For over 40 years he was
:03:53. > :03:55.at the centre of the The Troubles, as leader
:03:56. > :04:00.of the Derry Brigade, IRA chief of staff and head
:04:01. > :04:02.of Northern Command. But ultimately he helped bring
:04:03. > :04:05.the violence to an end. I spent a decade negotiating peace
:04:06. > :04:08.with Martin McGuinness. The first time I met him,
:04:09. > :04:13.like most people, I saw a terrorist. When I left government
:04:14. > :04:18.I invited him to my And now he's gone I think we're
:04:19. > :04:23.in danger of underestimating Derry today is a beautiful
:04:24. > :04:30.city at peace. But in the early 1970s
:04:31. > :04:33.it was at the centre of a bloody war between the IRA
:04:34. > :04:38.and the British Army. Denis Bradley was a local Catholic
:04:39. > :04:42.priest trying to keep He had the looks and the charms
:04:43. > :04:54.and the ability to go places where other people
:04:55. > :04:57.perhaps didn't go. That gave him confidence,
:04:58. > :05:01.it gave him an insight, and then he discovered that he wasn't too bad at
:05:02. > :05:04.it, that he was as good as the rest at it, and perhaps even better,
:05:05. > :05:08.that he had a natural instinct for There was no argument about
:05:09. > :05:23.whether he was an IRA man or not. He was highly respected
:05:24. > :05:25.among the hard men, and the harder they were the more
:05:26. > :05:30.respect they had for him. So he was certainly
:05:31. > :05:34.on the tough side of the I met him in June 1972 in Derry
:05:35. > :05:41.in what was then free I was told there were
:05:42. > :05:46.going to be talks And I met Martin,
:05:47. > :05:50.that was the first time I'd met him, 45 years
:05:51. > :05:54.ago, a long-time. But for many in Northern Ireland
:05:55. > :05:57.Martin McGuinness was the You will never defeat
:05:58. > :06:02.the Protestant people of Ulster! What would your
:06:03. > :06:07.dad have thought of Martin McGuinness
:06:08. > :06:14.was evil personified. He was the man who was terrorising
:06:15. > :06:21.Northern Ireland and he was everything that every Ulsterman,
:06:22. > :06:23.every Protestant, every Unionist So when did the hard man change
:06:24. > :06:36.into a peacemaker and why? By the late 1980s the violence
:06:37. > :06:49.had reached a new peak - with the Enniskillen
:06:50. > :06:51.bomb even IRA leaders, including McGuinness,
:06:52. > :06:53.realised they'd gone too far. It's really desecrating the dead
:06:54. > :06:55.and a blot on mankind. A corner was turned and in the midst
:06:56. > :06:58.of the violence the IRA started reaching out
:06:59. > :07:09.secretly to the British. I think after the Enniskillen
:07:10. > :07:14.bombing that is when Martin McGuinness became
:07:15. > :07:16.moving from the hard man Denis Bradley was one of those
:07:17. > :07:20.in Derry who facilitated the secret back channel between
:07:21. > :07:22.the IRA and the British I think that McGuinness was quicker
:07:23. > :07:29.and earlier into the fray of peacemaking than anybody else
:07:30. > :07:32.within the Republican movement. The back channel for
:07:33. > :07:33.the British government It was never comfortable
:07:34. > :07:42.for the IRA either. There's only two ways
:07:43. > :07:44.that a conflict ends, and Martin, I think,
:07:45. > :07:50.very well knew it. One is an absolute victory
:07:51. > :07:53.and defeat, one side over another. And if that is not
:07:54. > :07:56.possible, and in most modern history it hasn't been
:07:57. > :07:59.possible, then you discover that, you know, negotiations
:08:00. > :08:02.are a part of where you go. In the end the link collapsed
:08:03. > :08:04.because mistrust between In 1996 the IRA went back to war
:08:05. > :08:15.with the Canary Wharf bomb. When Tony Blair came
:08:16. > :08:17.to government in 1997, he made peace in
:08:18. > :08:22.Northern Ireland his first priority. I first met Martin
:08:23. > :08:28.McGuinness here in Castle Buildings on 13th October 1997
:08:29. > :08:30.along with Tony Blair. It was the first meeting
:08:31. > :08:32.between a British Prime Minister and Republican
:08:33. > :08:36.leaders since 1921. We arranged the meeting
:08:37. > :08:39.in a small windowless room so no one could take photographs
:08:40. > :08:42.of us meeting Republican leaders. I declined to shake
:08:43. > :08:44.hands with Martin Tony Blair was more
:08:45. > :08:47.sensible and shook them by the hand as
:08:48. > :08:50.he would anyone else. It was here that the
:08:51. > :08:54.peace process began. I remember Martin being,
:08:55. > :08:59.you know, there is a lot of accumulated pain and hurt that he
:09:00. > :09:04.wanted to express and that he was very determined to give me a lengthy
:09:05. > :09:07.and detailed account of why the British were to blame
:09:08. > :09:11.for the problems of Ireland. But the importance of the meeting
:09:12. > :09:15.was that it happened. When we came to government
:09:16. > :09:17.Martin was made the chief If he was involved the people
:09:18. > :09:26.got to have some sense. My wife always says she would trust
:09:27. > :09:30.Martin McGuinness with her life. She doesn't say that about me
:09:31. > :09:40.but that's another story. So I suppose people
:09:41. > :09:41.had that sense of You always felt as a
:09:42. > :09:45.chief negotiator that somebody had to sell
:09:46. > :09:47.this to the troops. If a deal was done with Martin
:09:48. > :09:50.he could deliver and he was And I think that was
:09:51. > :09:55.the distinction. I'm not saying the selling powers
:09:56. > :09:58.of Gerry were not considerable but I think Martin was the person who had
:09:59. > :10:01.the ability to sell it. became Deputy First Minister sharing
:10:02. > :10:13.power with Ian Paisley. My main memory of that
:10:14. > :10:15.day was the two of them sitting on the sofa
:10:16. > :10:19.in Paisley's office trying to outdo each other in terms
:10:20. > :10:21.of telling jokes. We were nearly sitting
:10:22. > :10:29.on each other's knees. And big Ian kind of tended to take
:10:30. > :10:32.up a fair bit of space. It was amazing how like at
:10:33. > :10:42.the crack of a switch to put a light on that they seemed
:10:43. > :10:45.to have said listen, we've been through all of this,
:10:46. > :10:48.you were on that side, I was on this side,
:10:49. > :10:49.terrible things happened, The terrible legacy of the victims
:10:50. > :10:53.which we all can never forget. But that these people
:10:54. > :10:56.were prepared to give it a go. How do you manage to build
:10:57. > :11:01.a relationship with someone who had been, as you say,
:11:02. > :11:04.the personification of evil? The two of them did sit
:11:05. > :11:06.down and had a very, I was privy to part of that
:11:07. > :11:12.conversation where my father said to Martin we can have a battle
:11:13. > :11:14.a day, we can make the community
:11:15. > :11:19.out there depressed, or we can actually hand in hand take
:11:20. > :11:21.this country forward Martin McGuinness risked not
:11:22. > :11:27.just his career but his life to make He achieved things
:11:28. > :11:30.as a politician he Now he's gone, a new
:11:31. > :11:35.generation who weren't involved in The Troubles have to see
:11:36. > :11:39.if they can continue his legacy. I worry because frankly this process
:11:40. > :11:42.in Northern Ireland is still fragile and unless there is a continual
:11:43. > :11:48.commitment by all the parties including the British government
:11:49. > :11:51.then it's at risk, frankly. We are past conflict,
:11:52. > :11:56.apart from a small number of people who are trying to
:11:57. > :12:00.draw us back into it but they have I worked with Martin
:12:01. > :12:09.McGuinness for ten years. At first I did so with
:12:10. > :12:11.grave reservations. Over time I came to realise that
:12:12. > :12:14.if you're going to make peace you have to talk
:12:15. > :12:16.to your enemies. For some he will always be viewed
:12:17. > :12:21.as a man with blood on his hands but I believe his legacy will
:12:22. > :12:25.be as the hard man who changed to negotiate peace, and perhaps most
:12:26. > :12:27.importantly, to make I ultimately take the view
:12:28. > :12:37.if Martin McGuinness helped us achieve peace in Northern Ireland,
:12:38. > :12:45.do we then hate our opponents, or end up recognising that without them
:12:46. > :12:48.we actually couldn't In a way his intrinsic nature never
:12:49. > :12:54.changed from the time he was in the Bogside to the time
:12:55. > :12:57.he was the Deputy First Minister. I think what changed
:12:58. > :12:59.was his deep-seated belief that the next generation had
:13:00. > :13:09.to live in a different environment from his, and that is
:13:10. > :13:10.really what impelled him, again, to become
:13:11. > :13:13.the greatest advocate and deep
:13:14. > :13:16.practitioner of peace. He's from the Bogside.
:13:17. > :13:20.That has never left him. To have been part of achieving peace
:13:21. > :13:23.and to find a peaceful way to achievement for a wee lad from the
:13:24. > :13:32.Bogside. There were many victims
:13:33. > :13:38.of IRA violence. Mr Stack was the chief prison
:13:39. > :13:41.officer at Portlaoise High Securtiy prison, where a lot of IRA
:13:42. > :13:43.prisoners were held. He was shot in the back
:13:44. > :13:46.of the neck in 1983, It was Just three years ago
:13:47. > :13:50.that the IRA acknowleged their involement after Gerry Adams
:13:51. > :13:52.facilitated a series of meetings with his son Austin
:13:53. > :14:11.who is in our Dublin studio now. Good evening. I wonder if you think
:14:12. > :14:17.the actions of Martin McGuinness as a Democratic politician out way all
:14:18. > :14:23.the hurt and the harm done to families and indeed the victims of
:14:24. > :14:28.IRA violence. First of all, just express my sympathies to the family
:14:29. > :14:31.of Martin McGuinness and I think this evening when we talk about
:14:32. > :14:36.Martin McGuinness we should bear in mind that his family are morning and
:14:37. > :14:40.I just want to express my pimp -- my sympathies to them. To answer your
:14:41. > :14:44.question I think when we look at the legacy of Martin McGuinness what we
:14:45. > :14:49.need to do is to look at this totality of that legacy. There's no
:14:50. > :14:53.denying that Martin McGuinness in the latter years moved into the
:14:54. > :14:58.political domain but we also should not deny and should not shy away
:14:59. > :15:06.from examining Martin McGuinness and his past. You have to bear in mind
:15:07. > :15:09.that Martin McGuinness and his organisation were responsible for
:15:10. > :15:18.thousands of murders, thousands of atrocities. And Martin McGuinness
:15:19. > :15:22.never, he is lauded as a peacemaker today but from our perspective as
:15:23. > :15:27.victims Martin McGuinness had never at any stage tried to reach out to
:15:28. > :15:31.the victims, he never tried to reconcile with victims. And he never
:15:32. > :15:36.acknowledged the victims. I can point to several incidents I know
:15:37. > :15:43.certainly my good friend David Kelly whose father private Paddy Kelly was
:15:44. > :15:46.shocked by the IRA, David approached Martin McGuinness asking him for
:15:47. > :15:52.answers in 2011 and Martin McGuinness shunted him away with the
:15:53. > :15:58.words, just move on, you. So from that perspective, as victims we
:15:59. > :16:01.would have a very different take on Martin McGuinness and his legacy and
:16:02. > :16:05.I think we should look at the whole of the legacy and not just the
:16:06. > :16:11.latter years. It is inevitable perhaps when use see archive footage
:16:12. > :16:16.of the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, it looks like a different era and four
:16:17. > :16:20.order -- in order for peace to work and continue working is it
:16:21. > :16:27.inevitable that that would end up coming to the forefront and actually
:16:28. > :16:30.the legitimate grievances of many victims families are not satisfied
:16:31. > :16:37.but perhaps sidelined. That is exactly it. It appears that the
:16:38. > :16:41.feelings of the victims have been shunted to one side and this evening
:16:42. > :16:52.my thoughts would be with some very good friends of mine in Enniskillen
:16:53. > :16:55.and Claudy listening to the plaudits being thrown the way of Martin
:16:56. > :16:59.McGuinness, people who lost loved ones, people who are physically
:17:00. > :17:07.injured and still in great pain today. In Enniskillen. Those people
:17:08. > :17:13.have been traumatised again today by the plaudits thrown to Martin
:17:14. > :17:17.McGuinness and for them the legacy is very real. And those people are
:17:18. > :17:24.suffering today. And from that perspective we should just bear that
:17:25. > :17:27.in mind. And that is real, the footage as you describe it is old
:17:28. > :17:31.and seems to be from a different era but today the victims are still
:17:32. > :17:40.suffering, there are still in that space. I wonder with so many of our
:17:41. > :17:47.generation, some dying prematurely, but moving on, whether you're
:17:48. > :17:51.optimistic for continued peace? I'm always optimistic and fully
:17:52. > :17:56.supportive of the peace process. And supportive of peace. But what myself
:17:57. > :18:02.and other victims are conscious of is there has been, you know, pretty
:18:03. > :18:10.much nonexistent attitude towards us. Particularly people of the ilk
:18:11. > :18:14.of Martin McGuinness did not try to reach out to us. When he reached out
:18:15. > :18:19.to political unionism he never reached out to the victims. He never
:18:20. > :18:24.tried to reconcile with the victims. And for peace to work in its
:18:25. > :18:29.totality the victims must be included in the process. And that
:18:30. > :18:31.has never happened. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
:18:32. > :18:33.Joining me now in the studio is Irish historian and columnist,
:18:34. > :18:36.And from Salford, professor of politics at the University
:18:37. > :18:38.of Liverpool, Jonathan Tonge, who directed the 2010
:18:39. > :18:43.and 2015 Northern Ireland general election surveys.
:18:44. > :18:54.Good evening. Ruth Dudley Edwards, Martin McGuinness was the main
:18:55. > :18:58.proponent of United Ireland, do you think that is closer now or further
:18:59. > :19:04.away or does his passing actually change that equation? I do not think
:19:05. > :19:08.his passing changes it but we should remember if there was any chance of
:19:09. > :19:12.United Ireland the IRA said it backed by generations. There was
:19:13. > :19:17.always a possibility, given the right kind of approach and approach
:19:18. > :19:23.of friendship, that both sides of the border might get to know each
:19:24. > :19:26.other and that organically trade might occur, friendships might
:19:27. > :19:30.develop and that in due course, possibly people might see the
:19:31. > :19:35.possibility of a united Ireland. But once the are a decided to try to
:19:36. > :19:41.bomb and kill Unionists into a united Ireland, they wrecked it. Do
:19:42. > :19:46.you take that analysis, Jonathan, or do not have a different attitude
:19:47. > :19:49.towards the possibility of United Ireland? That is the reason why
:19:50. > :19:55.Martin McGuinness move towards peace. Even with the huge bombs of
:19:56. > :20:00.the 1990s which flattened London and Manchester, even then the IRA could
:20:01. > :20:05.not force a united Ireland. What you've seen is Sinn Fein making huge
:20:06. > :20:09.political progress since the IRA ceasefires of the 1990s. It has been
:20:10. > :20:14.growth of almost every election for Sinn Fein since that period. And
:20:15. > :20:19.Sinn Fein is very much on the march, buoyed by a successful election
:20:20. > :20:26.earlier this month in the north. It is more likely than not that at some
:20:27. > :20:29.stage they will sit in government in the South and I do think a united
:20:30. > :20:33.Ireland is back on the agenda. Certainly it is being talked about
:20:34. > :20:37.seriously. Brexit provides a material change in circumstances to
:20:38. > :20:42.quote Nicola Sturgeon in the Scottish case that could lead to
:20:43. > :20:45.united Ireland. Soft nationalists basically have accepted devolved
:20:46. > :20:49.power-sharing within the United Kingdom but firstly you have not got
:20:50. > :20:52.that with the collapse of the institutions in the north, and
:20:53. > :20:58.secondly soft nationalists have accepted the border is a fact but
:20:59. > :21:01.they will not accept a water as a fence again if that happens as a
:21:02. > :21:07.consequence of Brexit. That brings the United Ireland idea back on the
:21:08. > :21:13.agenda in a way you have not seen in recent times. So in a sense not just
:21:14. > :21:17.down to demographics, tectonic plates shifting a bit faster, not
:21:18. > :21:22.only with Sinn Fein gaining ground in the north and the South, and
:21:23. > :21:26.indeed the reaction to Brexit, but also just a feeling in the north,
:21:27. > :21:31.you have Unionists, Protestant children taking Irish citizenship as
:21:32. > :21:37.they can under the Good Friday agreement. Different attitudes from
:21:38. > :21:40.younger generation. Yes and quite a lot of people think of themselves
:21:41. > :21:44.now as Northern Irish rather than Irish or British and that is
:21:45. > :21:51.developing a sense of Northern Irish identity. But do not get carried
:21:52. > :21:54.away with this United Ireland business, Gerry Adams is calling for
:21:55. > :21:57.a border poll but the south of Ireland does not want it and the
:21:58. > :22:02.Northern Irish would not vote for it. A very small part of the
:22:03. > :22:09.Catholic community in Northern Ireland would vote for it. It is not
:22:10. > :22:14.possible economically. And I would also say that Martin McGuinness, his
:22:15. > :22:19.death is a hell of a blow to Sinn Fein. Massive blow. He was their
:22:20. > :22:25.strategist, he had more brains than most of the rest put together. He
:22:26. > :22:29.also was not impeded by the vanity and egotism of Gerry Adams which
:22:30. > :22:32.gets underway, which makes and confrontational and very bad at
:22:33. > :22:36.diplomacy. Gerry Adams can do the hard man, he cannot do the winning
:22:37. > :22:40.personality. You cannot do that charm in the wake Martin McGuinness
:22:41. > :22:44.could. So they're missing Martin McGuinness and they will be
:22:45. > :22:49.something I think in the south. I wonder then, it is a big leap to
:22:50. > :22:56.talk about this, but if you think there are no kind of figures of
:22:57. > :23:01.stature, if you do not take the others that are there now into play,
:23:02. > :23:05.no figures of stature. Is there a danger then that there is going to
:23:06. > :23:09.be something that might approximate to return to violence? I do not
:23:10. > :23:13.think there is any prospect of that. One of the most successful things
:23:14. > :23:16.Martin McGuinness did was to marginalise the dissidents. That was
:23:17. > :23:21.not as easy as people might imagine. The worst atrocity of the troubles
:23:22. > :23:24.came after the Good Friday agreement with the Omagh bombing which killed
:23:25. > :23:28.29. Martin McGuinness took personal risk in trying to marginalise those
:23:29. > :23:33.groups. In terms of the broader picture Sinn Fein has defined a
:23:34. > :23:38.replacement ultimately also for Gerry Adams, he is broadly the same
:23:39. > :23:43.age as Martin McGuinness and the longest serving leader anywhere in
:23:44. > :23:46.Europe. He has been Sinn Fein president since 1983. So potentially
:23:47. > :23:50.there is a huge void at the top of Sinn Fein when Gerry Adams quits
:23:51. > :23:56.politics. But I think they have been preparing for some time now. And I
:23:57. > :24:00.think if you had all Ireland poll it be interesting, the mathematics, on
:24:01. > :24:05.whether there would be support for a united Ireland. Do you agree that a
:24:06. > :24:10.number of Catholics would not supported in the north, the South
:24:11. > :24:13.would not want it because of the economic consequences? I think
:24:14. > :24:16.plenty of Catholics are comfortable with devolved power-sharing within
:24:17. > :24:20.the UK but at the moment that does not look as if it will be coming
:24:21. > :24:27.into place. The institutions are in trouble and Sinn Fein said they will
:24:28. > :24:30.not work with Arlene Foster. So you will have Northern nationalists
:24:31. > :24:35.taken out of the EU against their will. Also some Unionists are
:24:36. > :24:40.unhappy with that, 30% of the DUP vote voted to remain in the European
:24:41. > :24:44.Union. So there is unhappiness, the situation has changed in terms of
:24:45. > :24:46.the discussion at least. Thank you both very much.
:24:47. > :24:49.And now - it's a big week for one of Trump's
:24:50. > :24:51.biggest campaign pledges - as repeated last night
:24:52. > :24:53.at a rally - to "end the catastrophe of Obamacare."
:24:54. > :24:59.This is perhaps the first big legislative test of
:25:00. > :25:01.Trump's administration - and it's left his own
:25:02. > :25:07.On the campaign trail his rallyng cry was that he would repeal
:25:08. > :25:14.And that's exactly what he's trying to do now.
:25:15. > :25:16.But what he's suggested as an alternative is hated by pretty
:25:17. > :25:24.Republican moderates think it will adversely hit
:25:25. > :25:27.the elderly and the poor, right wing republicans say it's just
:25:28. > :25:28.Obamacare-lite and way too expensive.
:25:29. > :25:33.Democrats of course never wanted to see it repealed at all.
:25:34. > :25:35.This morning we saw President Trump up on Capitol Hill trying
:25:36. > :25:41.to win his party round before that critical House vote on Thursday.
:25:42. > :25:46.He suggested they were fools not to come together,
:25:47. > :25:51.that they risked losing their seats if they appeared disunited.
:25:52. > :25:54.But as of tonight the feeling here in DC is that he's
:25:55. > :26:00.There is a core of around 40 ideological republicans called
:26:01. > :26:11.the House Freedom Caucus who are willing the bill to fail.
:26:12. > :26:16.The bill would be sunk if 22 or more of them vote against it.
:26:17. > :26:18.There's talk of putting vice president Mike Pence on the Hill
:26:19. > :26:21.for the next two days solid to talk them around.
:26:22. > :26:23.But what do the patients make of all the politics?
:26:24. > :26:25.We went to Trump country - some hours north of
:26:26. > :26:34.For the first time in 24 years the people
:26:35. > :26:43.This county, Fulton, heavily rural, elderly and white,
:26:44. > :26:51.They took a gamble he'd deliver what he promised,
:26:52. > :26:59.After he came along and he started making sense about a lot of things
:27:00. > :27:03.that I've been thinking about for years and years,
:27:04. > :27:06.the changes that had to be done, I decided to change my politics
:27:07. > :27:15.Trumpcare's moving in the right direction.
:27:16. > :27:21.I think it's going to be a lot better than Obamacare.
:27:22. > :27:26.It was too high, a lot of people couldn't afford it,
:27:27. > :27:39.Now a key pledge on the campaign trail in places like this was that
:27:40. > :27:42.promise to repeal Obamacare, the health care programme that
:27:43. > :27:45.encouraged, some would say forced, millions of Americans to buy
:27:46. > :27:48.insurance and that expanded Medicaid, free insurance
:27:49. > :27:54.for the most vulnerable, through government subsidies.
:27:55. > :27:56.Next is an executive order minimising the economic burden
:27:57. > :27:59.of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act...
:28:00. > :28:01.Republicans have long argued it was too costly for government
:28:02. > :28:04.and premiums were too high for patients.
:28:05. > :28:07.It was repealed on day one by executive order,
:28:08. > :28:11.but this month the President produced his own plan.
:28:12. > :28:15.We came to the Fulton Medical Centre to see what they make of it.
:28:16. > :28:17.Just a decade old, it puts diagnosis, surgery,
:28:18. > :28:22.emergency services, and an elderly care home, all under one roof.
:28:23. > :28:25.Margaret Black has spent three months here.
:28:26. > :28:28.Do you know what the cost will be to you?
:28:29. > :28:34.Well, I know I had three trips to Pittsburgh in the ambulance,
:28:35. > :29:08.And if that was taken away, if your employer didn't have
:29:09. > :29:13.I mean, I wouldn't have the money to pay it.
:29:14. > :29:15.Under Trump's plan, employers would no longer be held responsible
:29:16. > :29:19.Some believe that change is badly needed.
:29:20. > :29:21.I think that it needs to be revamped.
:29:22. > :29:26.Companies that offer health care like my husband's,
:29:27. > :29:29.which we are fortunate for, that's a great thing.
:29:30. > :29:33.But there's companies out there that can't afford to pay
:29:34. > :29:44.They're going to end up shutting their doors, and that's
:29:45. > :29:47.Broadly, this plan would cost the government
:29:48. > :29:50.Let's show you how that could look in practice.
:29:51. > :29:52.Under Obamacare, Medicaid was expanded in the majority of states.
:29:53. > :29:55.Large employers were obliged to provide insurance to their workers.
:29:56. > :29:57.Health insurance became mandatory, with fines for those who didn't
:29:58. > :30:00.enrol, and there was a cap on the difference insurance
:30:01. > :30:06.Under Trumpcare, they intend to cut Medicaid expansion and stop any more
:30:07. > :30:08.They will free employers of the obligation to
:30:09. > :30:11.They'll stop insurance being mandatory, but say those
:30:12. > :30:18.who go two months without it may face higher policies.
:30:19. > :30:21.They'll use tax credits to help people buy it and they'll make
:30:22. > :30:23.major cuts to women's health programmes including
:30:24. > :30:27.The moment the presidential plan emerged, it appeared he had pulled
:30:28. > :30:30.Infuriating both those on the left of his party,
:30:31. > :30:33.worried that it would leave many Americans unprotected,
:30:34. > :30:37.and those on the right who have called it Obama-lite.
:30:38. > :30:39.Hated the fact he hadn't got rid of it completely.
:30:40. > :30:46.The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office - think along
:30:47. > :30:50.the lines of our OBR - predicted that 24 million
:30:51. > :30:52.more Americans would be uninsured by the next decade
:30:53. > :31:02.Older, poorer people, would be worst hit.
:31:03. > :31:04.I asked the head of emergency services, Dr Douglas Stern,
:31:05. > :31:07.I don't think that is an exaggeration.
:31:08. > :31:11.I think we could have more uninsured patients and that's going to push
:31:12. > :31:14.them towards an expensive health care, the emergency department,
:31:15. > :31:16.because if someone's uninsured they're going to wait
:31:17. > :31:21.And then once they have an acute problem they're going
:31:22. > :31:23.to go in to the system through the emergency
:31:24. > :31:25.department and unfortunately, that's the highest cost
:31:26. > :31:32.So, Dr Stern, from what you're saying, this is a community that
:31:33. > :31:34.can ill afford to pay for this health care?
:31:35. > :31:37.We have some patients that are on a fixed income and usually
:31:38. > :31:41.And they're on a fixed income, they don't have the opportunity
:31:42. > :31:47.And they choose between taking their blood pressure medication,
:31:48. > :31:53.This is President Trump's first real legislative test
:31:54. > :32:02.His party holds a majority in the chamber, but needs 216 votes to win.
:32:03. > :32:05.As things stand, the rump of conservatives known
:32:06. > :32:06.as Freedom House Caucus, believe they hold enough
:32:07. > :32:10.I know, I've talked to a lot of people that
:32:11. > :32:16.So there's a pretty persuasive case made by the leadership
:32:17. > :32:23.I think there's a lot of people that have concerns
:32:24. > :32:27.You must have done the maths, do you think there's
:32:28. > :32:31.Yeah, right now we don't have the votes to pass the bill.
:32:32. > :32:37.Well no, I want to get to yes, but I want the Trump
:32:38. > :32:43.So everybody agrees, the right-wing think tanks,
:32:44. > :32:45.the liberal think tanks, both agree the architecture
:32:46. > :32:53.The President himself went to Capitol Hill this morning
:32:54. > :32:57.to lobby for the bill in his own inimitable style.
:32:58. > :32:59.Telling Republican congressmen they risked losing their seats
:33:00. > :33:04.Tremendous health care plan, that's what we have.
:33:05. > :33:14.Affordable care, American health, no one even knows what it's called,
:33:15. > :33:17.but just like Hillarycare of the 1990s or Obamacare now
:33:18. > :33:23.or who knows, perhaps Trumpcare or even Ryancare next,
:33:24. > :33:28.the sticking of the name on the bill is not about pride or posterity,
:33:29. > :33:36.it's an attempt to affix political blame if it all goes wrong.
:33:37. > :33:46.And what of Fulton and its 84% who stood so solid behind Trump?
:33:47. > :33:49.Are they watching the machinations on the Hill, the swamp,
:33:50. > :33:53.They'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now,
:33:54. > :33:57.Whether they like it if he does, it is perhaps the bigger
:33:58. > :34:03.A mother whose daughter died at the age of 15
:34:04. > :34:06.after taking MDMA called tonight for the legalisation of all drugs
:34:07. > :34:12.Everything from heroin to MDMA to cannabis.
:34:13. > :34:16.Five years ago Anne-Marie Cockburn's daughter Martha was sitting her
:34:17. > :34:18.GCSEs and thinking about studying engineering, she was a talented
:34:19. > :34:23.But she was also curious about drugs - something her mother found out
:34:24. > :34:26.after she died from taking half a gram of MDMA powder that turned
:34:27. > :34:40.Anne-Marie Cockburn is with me now. Thank you for joining us. What
:34:41. > :34:47.actually happened to Martha on that day? She went kayaking with friends
:34:48. > :34:54.on a Saturday morning, a lovely July day in 2013. And afterwards she for
:34:55. > :35:00.some reason swallowed half a gram of white powder that turned out to be
:35:01. > :35:07.ecstasy, MDMA powder that was 91% pure. Within three hours of taking
:35:08. > :35:11.it she was dead. So that was actually an incredibly powerful
:35:12. > :35:14.dose? Yes, much higher than the normal street level. I think
:35:15. > :35:18.possibly the chances are it would have killed more than several
:35:19. > :35:24.people. I've been told it was enough for five to ten people in one go.
:35:25. > :35:30.When did you find out what happened? Well, it was very quickly we got
:35:31. > :35:36.told drugs were involved. And in respect of the dosage and so on that
:35:37. > :35:41.wasn't until a few days afterwards. But initially, yes, we were told
:35:42. > :35:45.instantly she has taken something. She was with friends at the time?
:35:46. > :35:51.She was with friends but she was the only one who took it. So then after
:35:52. > :35:57.the funeral you were going through the family computer and what did you
:35:58. > :36:01.find? I found her Google history and she'd been looking for ways to take
:36:02. > :36:06.ecstasy safely. Because she was a clever girl and she wanted to make
:36:07. > :36:10.sure she wouldn't overdose. Yes. She was at that stage in her adolescence
:36:11. > :36:14.and she did want to try things, she was a curious child and I encouraged
:36:15. > :36:21.her curiosity in life, as you do as a parent as much as you can. But
:36:22. > :36:25.that was a moment when I realised the situation was that she got lost
:36:26. > :36:29.in the detail and made a great mistake. She had taken ecstasy
:36:30. > :36:33.before and I think, as any mother would, you'd had a kind of
:36:34. > :36:37.contretemps about it. Yes, I was one of those parents, I said why would
:36:38. > :36:42.you do this? She said it makes me feel happy. I said, aren't you happy
:36:43. > :36:45.anyway? She said yes but it makes me feel even happier. I couldn't
:36:46. > :36:51.believe that. I just said don't do it, don't do it, I didn't want her
:36:52. > :36:55.to do it. I said just say no. And you know what went on to happen.
:36:56. > :37:00.After that terrible tragedy occurred you then started a campaign for
:37:01. > :37:08.legalisation. I want to go back and ask, before what happened happened
:37:09. > :37:12.were you for the legalisation, or even decriminalisation of drugs? I
:37:13. > :37:16.didn't think it related to families like mine. I was blissfully ignorant
:37:17. > :37:20.but I've learned the hard way and I've learned very quickly what I
:37:21. > :37:27.really should have known then. What do you say to people who say, well,
:37:28. > :37:33.if you legalise drugs for the over 18s it's still going to be the
:37:34. > :37:37.teenagers who, even though drink's legal, who experiment, take too
:37:38. > :37:41.much, and indeed get themselves into terrible trouble? Well, had Martha
:37:42. > :37:45.taken something that was licensed and regulated with a label, with
:37:46. > :37:49.ingredients, and dosage information, she wouldn't have taken enough for
:37:50. > :37:52.five to ten people and I believe she would still be here today. You don't
:37:53. > :37:57.want to think of your child taking drugs but if they are going to do it
:37:58. > :38:01.anyway I'd rather they get something from a licensed dealer than from the
:38:02. > :38:07.black market. What do you think of the whole just say no? It's out of
:38:08. > :38:10.date, it doesn't work. I said just say no, instead of telling Martha
:38:11. > :38:16.what she needed to note based on what she was doing. We need to
:38:17. > :38:20.engage with this properly and we need to be realistic about modern
:38:21. > :38:28.society. But some, I suppose, would say that the just say no works for
:38:29. > :38:33.some kids and some just say no to heavy alcohol use works as well and
:38:34. > :38:39.it's legalised. So, actually, does there need to be a clear message
:38:40. > :38:43.anyway about drugs? About what drugs are, about handling drugs and so
:38:44. > :38:48.forth. The only way we can do that is to get it out into the open, to
:38:49. > :38:52.shed complete light on the truth of drugs, the good, the bad and the
:38:53. > :38:57.ugly and the only way we can get rid of the black market is by a legal
:38:58. > :39:02.and regulatory model meaning you can fully educate people, they note the
:39:03. > :39:04.parameters, they know what it contains and so on. You can't
:39:05. > :39:11.educate at the moment that it might have this in it or it might... In
:39:12. > :39:15.Martha's case she had no idea it was 91% pure.
:39:16. > :39:21.There will be other parents who will take a diametrically opposed views
:39:22. > :39:26.to you because they think actually nothing would be further from what
:39:27. > :39:31.they want to see that legalise drugs were on the streets. Well, I wish I
:39:32. > :39:35.had the luxury of still being a parent. On their behalf I'm talking
:39:36. > :39:42.about the subject so they don't become me. Anne-Marie Cockburn,
:39:43. > :39:44.thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
:39:45. > :39:47.For much of the last year Britain has been divided into two,
:39:48. > :39:53.at times seemingly irreconcilable tribes -
:39:54. > :39:58.Or Remoaners, depending on your point of view.
:39:59. > :40:01.But with the start of our formal divorce from the EU days away,
:40:02. > :40:03.we've been doing our bit for national unity by inviting
:40:04. > :40:05.prominent Remainers to find at least one positive thing
:40:06. > :40:14.Tonight the News Statesman's Stephen Bush raises a glass to Brexit.
:40:15. > :40:18.It's become one of the most reliable and soul-destroying
:40:19. > :40:20.cliches of our politics, that you can't talk
:40:21. > :40:26.Of course, that isn't true, as a cursory glance at a British
:40:27. > :40:30.But it is true to say that while we've been in the EU,
:40:31. > :40:34.we haven't been able to control most of the immigration to Britain.
:40:35. > :40:38.This has meant that our politicians have avoided talking up the benefits
:40:39. > :40:41.of immigration and have erected ever crueller barriers to people who wish
:40:42. > :40:46.Now that we are leaving, we can at least have an honest conversation
:40:47. > :40:49.about who we want to come here and how we treat
:40:50. > :41:04.We leave you with the camera work of Jeremy Jones
:41:05. > :41:08.Jeremy records aeroplanes taking off and landing, and he was filming
:41:09. > :41:12.at Birmingham Airport in the middle of Storm Doris last month.
:41:13. > :41:14.In a 60mph crosswind he witnessed more than a few
:41:15. > :41:17.hair-raising moments during aborted landings - none more so than this
:41:18. > :42:06.one, made by William Barron, the pilot of Monarch Flight 971J.
:42:07. > :42:07.Hello. Snow, ice and heavy rain in the forecast