:00:00. > :00:00.This programme contains scenes which some viewers
:00:00. > :00:15.The terrorists chose to strike at the heart of the capital city, where
:00:16. > :00:18.people of all nationalities, religions and cultures come together
:00:19. > :00:24.to celebrate the values of liberty, democracy and freedom of speech. The
:00:25. > :00:28.streets of Westminster, home to the world's oldest Parliament, are
:00:29. > :00:29.ingrained with the spirit of freedom that echoes in some of the furthest
:00:30. > :00:34.corners of the globe. There are few places that are a more
:00:35. > :00:38.obvious target for a terror There are the crowds,
:00:39. > :00:41.there's symbolism, and today, On Westminster Bridge,
:00:42. > :00:47.a car was used as a weapon, causing at least three deaths
:00:48. > :00:49.and multiple injuries, before driving past Big Ben
:00:50. > :00:51.and crashing into the railings Then an occupant of the vehicle got
:00:52. > :00:56.out and went on to stab He has just been named as Keith
:00:57. > :01:06.Palmer, who was 48. There are, as always, questions
:01:07. > :01:08.about the causes of these attacks, the measures we take to prevent them
:01:09. > :01:11.and the effectiveness We will be discussing those
:01:12. > :01:15.through the programme, but nowhere are there more cameras,
:01:16. > :01:17.more police and passing journalists to witness
:01:18. > :01:19.an attack than in that zone. Like many, I was in the area
:01:20. > :01:23.and came out of Westminster station at 2.45pm to hear the sound of three
:01:24. > :01:25.or four gunshots. A lot of people were running away,
:01:26. > :01:28.many others were not, carrying on oblivious or perplexed
:01:29. > :01:31.at what was happening. This was the scene,
:01:32. > :01:34.then, from my phone. Across the road from the Tube,
:01:35. > :01:38.a car has rammed the wall, there. An injured person is on the ground
:01:39. > :01:42.and a cyclist trying to help. At this stage, we had no idea
:01:43. > :01:45.that there had been deaths Most of us were looking
:01:46. > :01:48.to see what had happened Very quickly, more police arrived -
:01:49. > :01:52.from all directions. And the effort was made to clear
:01:53. > :02:00.the public from the square. As Big Ben chimed 3pm,
:02:01. > :02:03.there was a strange hush over Parliament Square,
:02:04. > :02:05.with just the noise of police sirens in the background and a lot
:02:06. > :02:08.of people just gazing and trying Well, John Sweeney has
:02:09. > :02:46.been piecing together At around 2.40pm, a car drives on to
:02:47. > :02:50.Westminster Bridge, mounted the pavement and ploughs into people in
:02:51. > :02:55.its path. The vehicle crosses the bridge, passes Big Ben and slams
:02:56. > :03:00.into the railings to the left. The attacker, armed with a knife, runs
:03:01. > :03:05.around the corner and into the main gates of the Palace of Westminster.
:03:06. > :03:08.He stabs a police officer. Eyewitnesses say that as he
:03:09. > :03:13.approached a second officer, clutching his life, he was shot. The
:03:14. > :03:18.first people to be hit with standing on the south bank of the river, by
:03:19. > :03:22.this kiosk. This Danish teenager saw the horror. The people were just
:03:23. > :04:14.lying on the ground. This man, the driver, but at first
:04:15. > :04:22.the attacker had lost control of his vehicle. The car started speeding
:04:23. > :04:29.up, the only by that was a light had changed, as he sped up, there was
:04:30. > :04:34.the shot and he has taken three victims. As I was driving, I was
:04:35. > :04:40.thinking, he has lost his balance or his brakes and then the second and
:04:41. > :04:43.the third, I have to stop the new middle-of-the-road to point to the
:04:44. > :04:47.other cars to stop because there were people in the
:04:48. > :04:54.middle-of-the-road. People flying like football. I felt sorry for one
:04:55. > :04:57.of the gentlemen, I do not know what happened but it is not something I
:04:58. > :05:01.would like to witness everyday. Unconscious in the middle of the
:05:02. > :05:08.road. Did you get a chance to see the gentleman driving the car? , my
:05:09. > :05:17.attention was on what was happening, it was so quick, and after 30
:05:18. > :05:23.seconds I realised. Only one person. That is a crime against humanity.
:05:24. > :05:28.Our next eyewitness, a former Polish Foreign Minister who filmed this
:05:29. > :05:32.footage. We heard what sounded like metal on metal and we assumed it was
:05:33. > :05:38.a collision but then we looked outside and I sold one person died
:05:39. > :05:43.and another, I took my phone from a journalistic habit and SL five
:05:44. > :05:49.people in all on the tarmac and on the pavement and then I understood
:05:50. > :05:53.it must have been deliberate. In the chaos, a woman was reported to have
:05:54. > :05:59.fallen into the tens. She was pulled out injured but alive. The attacker
:06:00. > :06:03.then crashed his car into the railings just beyond Big Ben.
:06:04. > :06:09.Hitting, it appears, yet another innocent bystander. My wife and I
:06:10. > :06:12.came from the Westminster Underground and as they came up
:06:13. > :06:17.looked across to Parliament and there was a car crashed into the
:06:18. > :06:23.gate. And the police officers were running with machine guns and there
:06:24. > :06:29.was a man down beside the car. After is settled in, I thought, I don't
:06:30. > :06:35.like what is going on and I took my wife and her friend and got behind
:06:36. > :06:38.concrete. Journalist Quentin Letts heard the car crash and ran to his
:06:39. > :06:46.office window overlooking Parliament Square. The saw a thickset man in
:06:47. > :06:51.black clothes coming through the gates were people would normally
:06:52. > :06:57.drive cars into New Palace Yard, just below Big Ben. Add this man had
:06:58. > :07:02.something in his hand, it looked like a stick of some sort. He was
:07:03. > :07:06.challenged by a couple of policemen in yellow jackets and one of the
:07:07. > :07:12.policemen fell down. And we could see the man in black waving his arm
:07:13. > :07:19.in a way that suggested he was either stabbing or striking the
:07:20. > :07:25.yellow jacketed police man. And one of the policemen ran to get help,
:07:26. > :07:38.which was very quick to come. And then, this. I would say 15 yards,
:07:39. > :07:44.perhaps. Two plainclothes guys with guns shouted at him, uttered what
:07:45. > :07:52.sounded like a warning, he ignored that and they shot and two or three
:07:53. > :07:55.times and he fell. Foreign Office Minister Tobias Ellwood administered
:07:56. > :07:59.the kiss of life to the dying police officer. The thing London has been
:08:00. > :08:05.dreading has finally happened, a terror attack, and this one on the
:08:06. > :08:10.very heart of democracy. Inside the chamber, the Deputy Speaker halted
:08:11. > :08:15.proceedings. I know how to suspend the city of the house, this house is
:08:16. > :08:19.a splendid but please wait. These were the scenes in the mother of
:08:20. > :08:22.Parliaments today. Chaos within. But murder without.
:08:23. > :08:36.There has been a Scotland Yard briefing. It has confirmed five
:08:37. > :08:38.dead, including the attacker at this point, 40 with injuries, they think
:08:39. > :08:43.they know the identity of the assailant, they are not putting out
:08:44. > :08:49.any name or telling us more about that, they have named the police
:08:50. > :08:53.officer who was killed, that is Keith Palmer, a husband and father
:08:54. > :08:59.aged 48. They say there will be extra officers on the streets of the
:09:00. > :09:01.next few days. An important line is they think the attack was motivated
:09:02. > :09:03.by international terror. It may not have been a surprise,
:09:04. > :09:06.but it is still a shock. And the Prime Minister came out
:09:07. > :09:09.of Number 10 this evening Once again, today, these
:09:10. > :09:13.exceptional men and women ran towards the danger,
:09:14. > :09:17.even as they encouraged others On behalf of the whole country,
:09:18. > :09:26.I want to pay tribute to them. That they have lost one
:09:27. > :09:30.of their own in today's attack only makes their calmness
:09:31. > :09:32.and professionalism under pressure After the 7/7 attacks occurred,
:09:33. > :09:45.Ken Livingstone was Mayor of London. He was in Singapore at the time
:09:46. > :09:48.of the attack, helping London win the Olympics,
:09:49. > :09:50.but captured the public mood in the aftermath,
:09:51. > :10:00.with a well chosen speech. Good evening. I don't know what your
:10:01. > :10:07.thoughts were when you heard London had been attacked again. Well, we
:10:08. > :10:15.have known this was going to happen, the difference is back 12 years ago,
:10:16. > :10:21.when 52 Londoners were killed, that was part of an international group
:10:22. > :10:26.linked to international terrorists. The problem now is that most of the
:10:27. > :10:33.recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been individual, angry, young
:10:34. > :10:39.men, going out with the gun or knife or a lorry on a car killing people.
:10:40. > :10:44.It is much more difficult to get the data about them to recognise who
:10:45. > :10:51.they are and prepare for that. That is a problem. The nature of
:10:52. > :10:55.terrorism in Europe has changed, it is individuals rather than
:10:56. > :10:59.organisations. Give us some guidance as to what is going on at the
:11:00. > :11:04.moment. What a Scotland Yard doing? Who was in charge at the moment?
:11:05. > :11:10.What is the role of politicians at this point or is it delegated to the
:11:11. > :11:17.police? We did delegate to the police. After the 911 attacks in New
:11:18. > :11:23.York we started planning for this, we created a counterterrorism
:11:24. > :11:30.organisation, very large, monitoring the people who could do things like
:11:31. > :11:34.this, and vast amount of work went into that. Although we have seen
:11:35. > :11:42.this horror today and the horror back 12 years ago with the attacks
:11:43. > :11:49.on London, about every year, police stopped three or four attacks in
:11:50. > :11:52.London. They are able to do that. But there will always be one
:11:53. > :11:57.individual who can get through and can kill. You raise an interesting
:11:58. > :12:03.point, is this something that is going to become a normal part of
:12:04. > :12:10.life in capital are big cities in Europe and the West? Yes but we
:12:11. > :12:17.cannot allow that to change the way we live. What was remarkable about
:12:18. > :12:19.the terrorist attacks in 2005, in the weeks that followed, the
:12:20. > :12:23.Metropolitan police did not come across a single incident where
:12:24. > :12:28.Londoners had turned around and attacked or abused Muslims.
:12:29. > :12:33.Londoners recognised what those terrorists wanted to do was to tear
:12:34. > :12:36.us apart, to unleash a wave of hatred and antagonism and violence
:12:37. > :12:42.and that is how we must respond to this. The Muslims that live in
:12:43. > :12:46.London who have become Londoners are not responsible for what has
:12:47. > :12:51.happened here. And we have to make certain that the terrorist attacks,
:12:52. > :12:54.whether it is an international organisation or one individual,
:12:55. > :13:01.angry, young man, cannot divide us. We have to be united. Ken
:13:02. > :13:06.Livingstone, do you think the police are equipped, ready and able to deal
:13:07. > :13:17.with the situation that faces them? Up to the job? We put vast amounts
:13:18. > :13:21.of public money into actually building up the police to do with
:13:22. > :13:27.this but also I have to say, in the last few days, Sadiq Khan made an
:13:28. > :13:30.incredible statement, saying he was going to bring back the
:13:31. > :13:33.neighbourhood patrols that I had when I was the Mayor of London and
:13:34. > :13:39.they are very good because if people in a community see two or three
:13:40. > :13:43.police officers that they get to know walking through the area, they
:13:44. > :13:48.will come up and say, there is something odd going on in that
:13:49. > :13:53.house... I am worried about this person. An individual is unlikely to
:13:54. > :13:55.pick up the phone and say, can I talk to the counter terrorism unit.
:13:56. > :14:00.But they will talk to the neighbourhood police officer. Sadiq
:14:01. > :14:07.Khan's policy of bringing back neighbourhood patrols can be crucial
:14:08. > :14:11.in making Londoners say. This is the first attack we have had under Sadiq
:14:12. > :14:19.Khan, and Muslim Mayor, does this make this an important time for the
:14:20. > :14:24.place of the Mayor in London? I watched his response to this and it
:14:25. > :14:31.sounded so much like how I responded to the attacks 12 years ago. And the
:14:32. > :14:35.fact that with all of this hysteria about Islamophobia and so on and
:14:36. > :14:41.Muslim terrorism, the people in London voted for the Mayor who was
:14:42. > :14:44.Muslim shows we are a great city and will not be divided by a few
:14:45. > :14:48.embittered and disturbed terrorists. Thank you.
:14:49. > :14:50.Last month, Max Hill, the barrister who's just
:14:51. > :14:52.been appointed to be the independent reviewer
:14:53. > :14:54.of terrorism legislation, warned that that Isis militants
:14:55. > :14:59.are planning "indiscriminate attacks on innocent civilians".
:15:00. > :15:02.No-one can say the authorities have not been alert to the possibility.
:15:03. > :15:04.The threat level has been set at severe for some time.
:15:05. > :15:07.We should be clear that we still know nothing of the assailant
:15:08. > :15:15.Our security expert Mark Urban is with me.
:15:16. > :15:24.Mark, is it important that it is a single say last night or everyone is
:15:25. > :15:28.assuming that, is that more likely, less likely, Isis or other forms? We
:15:29. > :15:31.know more because the Assistant Commissioner of special operations
:15:32. > :15:35.at the Met made a statement as we were going on air, so he has said
:15:36. > :15:40.that they know who the person is, that it is somebody who they believe
:15:41. > :15:44.to have been inspired by international terrorism, was the way
:15:45. > :15:48.he couched it. Although I can't tell you who that person was, who carried
:15:49. > :15:51.out this act, the people I have been speaking to, tonight, are all
:15:52. > :15:57.working on the assumption that it was in the words of one of them, a
:15:58. > :16:04.Lee Rigby type incident. If you look a those individuals, they were both
:16:05. > :16:06.on the radar, the Lee Rigby ones of the security service and Counter
:16:07. > :16:12.Terrorism Command, but at the same time, it was a type of act which was
:16:13. > :16:16.not networked in the way that the 7/72005 attacks were, where you had
:16:17. > :16:18.people going to Pakistan for training, actually communications
:16:19. > :16:22.going back-and-forth, things that could have been discovered. Not
:16:23. > :16:28.enough on the radar to be under constant surveillance. As a result
:16:29. > :16:34.of 7/7 what was of the security chiefs was saying to me at that
:16:35. > :16:37.time, he was saying, look, we extended the net wider was the way
:16:38. > :16:42.he put it. As a result of that, we come across a lot more people, with
:16:43. > :16:47.radical inclinations and there is concern, among those people who
:16:48. > :16:51.watch this community, that if this then emerges well, today's at tagger
:16:52. > :16:55.was somebody who had been in jail or who had been run in by the police,
:16:56. > :16:59.they then get blamed, because they are casting the net wider, but this
:17:00. > :17:04.is a new type of thing, that is inspired by. It is not the #340dle
:17:05. > :17:08.used on 7/7, we have seen that in other European countries with
:17:09. > :17:11.vehicles being used. It is a different model which frankly,
:17:12. > :17:17.pretty much anyone could do. Is it, would it be right to look at, to
:17:18. > :17:23.frame a lot of this less in religion or upon ticks and more in mental
:17:24. > :17:29.health and to think about these people as being... Insane rather
:17:30. > :17:34.than thoughtfully inspired by some ideology, just the latest version of
:17:35. > :17:37.insanity. As you know that gets into the culture war's arguments about
:17:38. > :17:45.terrorism, the nature of terrorism, with some saying you never refer to
:17:46. > :17:49.neo-Nazis as terrorists you say they are mentally ill, I mean look, there
:17:50. > :17:53.is all sorts of fang fors in this, some could say that anyone who goes
:17:54. > :17:58.to Syria to fight in Egyptian had is not going -- Jihad is not going to
:17:59. > :18:04.be the same balance of mind as the rest of us. But there is still
:18:05. > :18:07.ideology, it is all part of the picture. Well let us look at your
:18:08. > :18:13.report on the issues raised by all of this.
:18:14. > :18:20.There had been so many rehearsals of scenarios like this in all sorts of
:18:21. > :18:26.environments. From the Thames, to the streets, to the London
:18:27. > :18:30.underground. And underlying all the drills, the conviction at whoever
:18:31. > :18:34.inspired today's attacker the Islamic State group promised to
:18:35. > :18:40.strike Britain. I think it was only a matter of time before an attack
:18:41. > :18:43.like this happened, because IS had rallied its supporters round the
:18:44. > :18:48.world by saying attack where ever, and whenever you can. And what we
:18:49. > :18:54.saw today was a very low cost attack, it was a vehicle attacking
:18:55. > :18:59.people on the street, and this is not something that no matter how
:19:00. > :19:04.many security measures a country can take, could have been fully
:19:05. > :19:09.prevented. After the Nice attacks in which an say last night used a truck
:19:10. > :19:14.to mow people down, Islamic State promised again to hit the British.
:19:15. > :19:20.In the past two years, counter-terrorist chiefs say that 13
:19:21. > :19:24.plots have been foiled in Britain. Today, though, the Met's Assistant
:19:25. > :19:27.Commissioner for special operations had to count the cost of one that
:19:28. > :19:31.had got through. My thoughts are with all those who
:19:32. > :19:35.have been affected by today's attack. As a service we have lost
:19:36. > :19:38.one of our own as he acted to protect the public and his
:19:39. > :19:42.colleague, this is a day we planned for, but we hoped would never
:19:43. > :19:46.happen. Sadly it is now a reality. We will continue to dual we can, to
:19:47. > :19:52.protect the people of London. -- do all. Is The Metropolitan Police have
:19:53. > :19:56.a tight grip on the illegal firearms market in London, and that has given
:19:57. > :20:01.them a confidence they could prevent a kind of Mumbai or Paris sort of
:20:02. > :20:06.attack, with multiple gunmen on the streets. But of course, what they
:20:07. > :20:12.can't stop, is an individual using a car and a kitchen knife.
:20:13. > :20:16.What many of these attacks do have in common, and this happened with
:20:17. > :20:20.the murder of Lee Rigby, is that the attackers are already well-known to
:20:21. > :20:25.security agencies. It isn't yet clear whether that was the case in
:20:26. > :20:30.London today, but with hundreds involved in militant Islam, the
:20:31. > :20:36.problem remains one of resources, and calculated risks. The UK has one
:20:37. > :20:41.of the best security services in Europe, if not the world, and I know
:20:42. > :20:47.that the security services in the UK have foiled a number of plots, that
:20:48. > :20:53.the public do not necessarily know about, and as I said, the problem is
:20:54. > :20:59.you can't fully immunise a country against someone driving a vehicle
:21:00. > :21:02.and attacking people that way, but the more complex plots certainly the
:21:03. > :21:06.UK intelligence services is and security services have done a very
:21:07. > :21:09.good job of protecting British citizens from those kinds of
:21:10. > :21:14.incidents. There are a great many investigative
:21:15. > :21:19.avenues ahead for the police and MI5 now. Mapping the attacker's
:21:20. > :21:24.contacts, asking themselves about whether any warnings were missed,
:21:25. > :21:29.that gave an indication that he had decided to mount the crimes we saw
:21:30. > :21:33.today. Well before we move on the Met
:21:34. > :21:37.police has released this image of Keith Palmer, the policeman who was
:21:38. > :21:52.killed today. Husband and father aged 48.
:21:53. > :21:54.Grant Shapps, the Tory MP and former party chairman,
:21:55. > :21:57.was caught up in today's events, and he's in Westminster now.
:21:58. > :22:04.You were in old palace yard. Yes, New Palace Yard, and as we were
:22:05. > :22:08.walking through, to go to that vote, walking, chatting as we went, there
:22:09. > :22:14.is a lot of commotion, I looked round, police had their guns raised,
:22:15. > :22:20.pointing in the direction of, of the attacker, and we heard three shots,
:22:21. > :22:24.I think, perhaps four, ring out, and immediately, you know you are in a
:22:25. > :22:28.situation which is not just, you know a protestors has climbed over
:22:29. > :22:32.the fence, a police officer appeared immediately, dropped to the ground,
:22:33. > :22:36.get to the ground, get to the ground, get back, find a secure
:22:37. > :22:42.path, and we on our hands and knees, worked our way back to a place where
:22:43. > :22:46.we could go further into the Commons itself. And at that point I realised
:22:47. > :22:50.that the vote was still ongoing but now colleagues were stopped in their
:22:51. > :22:54.tracks from getting to the Commons chamber, and I went straight to the
:22:55. > :22:59.chamber and spoke to the Deputy Speaker, to tell him that he needed
:23:00. > :23:03.to stop the vote, probably suspend the House because there was a
:23:04. > :23:08.serious attack outside. What did you think was happening, did you, I mean
:23:09. > :23:11.did you think this was a full scale attack on the Palace of Westminster,
:23:12. > :23:15.while you were lying on the ground, total to get down, what were you
:23:16. > :23:18.thinking? Well, you know, as with all these things when you are in the
:23:19. > :23:23.moment, you are trying to work out what is going on, how serious it is,
:23:24. > :23:27.tries to, you know get out the way as fast as possible. As it happens
:23:28. > :23:31.as a minister I went to Mogadishu and I had security training for that
:23:32. > :23:35.event. Never used it in Mogadishu, it was fine while I was there, I
:23:36. > :23:38.never thought I would first get to experience and you know use that in
:23:39. > :23:42.Westminster, but it did give me a sense of what you want to do is get
:23:43. > :23:46.out the way as fast as possible. You have no idea whether there is going
:23:47. > :23:50.to be a follow up or other people involved or what have you, that I
:23:51. > :23:55.have to say, the one thing there was no panic, there was no great
:23:56. > :24:00.commotion, people moved calmly, got into the chamber, other groups were
:24:01. > :24:05.held elsewhere, I was with a whole bunch in the chamber, probably 400
:24:06. > :24:09.of us for about five here hours after that, and it was the Commons
:24:10. > :24:14.at its best with people trying to help each other out. I want to say
:24:15. > :24:18.this police officer, Keith Palmer, who we all knew from the entrance
:24:19. > :24:23.gate, and will have said good morning to or whatever, thoughts go
:24:24. > :24:28.out to him and to the three other members of the public, who were
:24:29. > :24:34.murdered in this pointless totally pointless attack today. And after
:24:35. > :24:37.those attack, there were attempts, to resuscitate Bowe the attacker and
:24:38. > :24:42.-- both the attacker and Keith Palmer. And it was your colleague
:24:43. > :24:48.making the efforts to resuscitate Keith Palmer. He was a fellow
:24:49. > :24:51.Foreign Office minister of mine and somebody who has experienced
:24:52. > :24:57.terrorism in his family, before with his brother, killed in an attack. He
:24:58. > :25:03.went straight to the scene, and as the pictures showed, tried to bring
:25:04. > :25:07.that police officer back. But, I mean it is an extraordinary day in
:25:08. > :25:11.Parliament. I think the key is, as the Prime Minister said, tomorrow,
:25:12. > :25:15.we will sit again, and the pointlessness of attack like this, I
:25:16. > :25:20.think will be crystal clear, it doesn't change, this thousand year
:25:21. > :25:24.old mother of all Parliaments behind us, to have another attack, it has
:25:25. > :25:27.happened before, I guess nearly 40 years ago now, with Airey Neave,
:25:28. > :25:32.almost in the same location, just underneath that location, in the car
:25:33. > :25:36.park on that occasion, it won't change our desire to have a
:25:37. > :25:41.Parliament that the public can access, that our constituents can
:25:42. > :25:43.see us in and represents the best of the world's democracy. Grant Shapps,
:25:44. > :25:46.thank you very much. We asked the Government
:25:47. > :25:49.and the Mayor of London to come The Shadow Home Secretary,
:25:50. > :26:00.Dianne Abbott, joins us. Your reaction to the events? I was
:26:01. > :26:06.in lockdown in the chamber, for five hours. MPs stayed calm but it was
:26:07. > :26:10.frightening. We didn't know whether it was part of a series of attacks
:26:11. > :26:14.round Westminster or London, when we heard about the deaths, five in all,
:26:15. > :26:18.including the say last night, particularly the death of the
:26:19. > :26:23.policeman, that we saw, you know, every day, coming in, people were
:26:24. > :26:30.very moved. Security of Parliament. Do you look at what happened today,
:26:31. > :26:35.as the security works, or do you see this as now needing a view of what
:26:36. > :26:40.the security is? I mean the bloke runs in, but he, he is stopped by a
:26:41. > :26:44.policeman. He didn't get in the bidding, he didn't get very far, we
:26:45. > :26:49.have to get the facts about what actually happened, we need to review
:26:50. > :26:53.it, I think it is very important to have a balance between keeping
:26:54. > :26:56.people safe and remember, 2000 people work on the Parliamentary
:26:57. > :27:00.estate but keeping Parliament open and accessible to the public.
:27:01. > :27:03.Security in Parliament is higher than I have ever known it I would
:27:04. > :27:08.hate to have a Parliament that was cut off from the public. Even more,
:27:09. > :27:14.and the communications within Westminster, I think Mary Creagh was
:27:15. > :27:18.saying it was confused, these things will be confused because Nonos what
:27:19. > :27:22.is happening, did you feel you knew what was going on as fast as you
:27:23. > :27:26.would have liked? I was confident, 400 MPs in the chamber in lockdown,
:27:27. > :27:33.that we were getting information as soon as it could be verified. It
:27:34. > :27:38.was, it was frightening, but MPs stayed calm. How do we stop this?
:27:39. > :27:43.Now, you are not a fan of the prevent scheme which is the big
:27:44. > :27:49.expensive Government programme, that has been running, to, talk people
:27:50. > :27:54.out of radicalism and prevent it, how do you think, how do we stop it?
:27:55. > :28:00.I don't think the prevent scheme has been effective. That is my issue
:28:01. > :28:04.with it. It has maybe worked with some people but overall it is not
:28:05. > :28:08.effective in its own terms. The House of Commons is on the footprint
:28:09. > :28:14.of a medieval Palace, 2,000 people in and out every day, very hard to
:28:15. > :28:18.make it completely secure unless you are... It is not just about the
:28:19. > :28:23.House of Commons, Westminster Bridge is where the true horror was, most
:28:24. > :28:28.of the deaths were occur, and you are not going to be able to provide
:28:29. > :28:34.security on every bridge in every part of the country, that won't be a
:28:35. > :28:39.solution, how do you prevent, this is I suppose the nub of the problem,
:28:40. > :28:43.you don't think prevent is, who, you said it demonises communities, what
:28:44. > :28:46.do you do to guide people away from that course? We have to look where
:28:47. > :28:51.it has worked and where it has failed. Deem needing communities
:28:52. > :28:56.will not make us safer. But there is some work it has done that has
:28:57. > :29:02.worked. It is demonising communities to say there is an issue we a number
:29:03. > :29:06.of people who are persuaded to, tempted by mad radicalism. The truth
:29:07. > :29:10.is, when I go into universities and talk to young people, when I talk to
:29:11. > :29:16.communities some feel demonised, that is not helpful. There is
:29:17. > :29:21.practical work that can be done to show people, to reassure people that
:29:22. > :29:25.have a stake in society. Thank you very much indeed.
:29:26. > :29:27.A man armed with a motor car and knife causes death
:29:28. > :29:31.We can't stop people acquiring access to cars or to knives,
:29:32. > :29:35.This has become a real headache, since the Nice attack
:29:36. > :29:37.on Bastille Day last July, when a lorry was used
:29:38. > :29:42.Suddenly, that realisation, that individuals can wield great
:29:43. > :29:43.harm without explosives, was a game changer.
:29:44. > :29:48.Well, you would think the only way is to stop the people
:29:49. > :29:52.But if there are too many of them, that's not easy.
:29:53. > :29:55.I'm joined by Richard Barrett, who has held positions in MI5,
:29:56. > :29:58.served as director of global counter terrorism operations
:29:59. > :30:00.for the Secret Intelligence Service, and is now director
:30:01. > :30:04.And Sara Khan, CEO of the anti-Islamist charity Inspire,
:30:05. > :30:06.which supports and works alongside the government's counter-extremism
:30:07. > :30:27.Can we start on Prevent, we heard Diane Abbott's not new views on
:30:28. > :30:33.Prevent. How well isn't working? The government has said that there have
:30:34. > :30:36.been successes, 50 people have been stopped from travelling to Syria,
:30:37. > :30:41.including a number of children, there is work taking place around
:30:42. > :30:44.challenging far right extremism and providing support to vulnerable
:30:45. > :30:50.young people who are expressing extreme views so we know there is
:30:51. > :30:54.successful work happening. It is not perfect but we need to continue
:30:55. > :30:59.positive work but that burqas critical and it is important to
:31:00. > :31:05.realise that Prevent operates in a space where people are vulnerable to
:31:06. > :31:12.radicalisation but may not have necessarily committed a criminal act
:31:13. > :31:19.so it is preventing that by providing early intervention. The
:31:20. > :31:23.key development since 7-7, 12 years ago, this idea that these
:31:24. > :31:30.individuals are not networks, they are inspired by rather than joined
:31:31. > :31:34.up with forces like Isis, is Prevent good for those people wasn't aimed
:31:35. > :31:39.and devise an Europe with networks? Prevent was designed to be flexible
:31:40. > :31:44.to the nature of the threat and to the evolving threat, whether that is
:31:45. > :31:48.a lone wolf or dealing with different types of extremism and it
:31:49. > :31:53.is important to recognise that after the merger of Lee Rigby, the
:31:54. > :31:59.intelligence and security community made it clear that out of contest,
:32:00. > :32:03.the counterterrorism strategy, one of the most important strands is
:32:04. > :32:08.investing in Prevent, investing in early intervention and prevention is
:32:09. > :32:14.the most cost effective. Are you a supporter of Prevent? I am a
:32:15. > :32:21.supporter of Prevent in so far as it engages the community, the public,
:32:22. > :32:27.and Prevent is quite innovative with the UK as the first country to try
:32:28. > :32:32.this policy and it has had to be reinvented from time to time but
:32:33. > :32:36.nonetheless it has been worth trying and we must remember that Prevent is
:32:37. > :32:43.about radicalisation to extremism in any direction and we think back to
:32:44. > :32:51.the last attack, the last murder in the UK, Jo Cox, that was from a
:32:52. > :33:00.different form of extremist. Let us talk about the security and how we
:33:01. > :33:04.stop this time of thing. A car and a knife, ordinary objects, you cannot
:33:05. > :33:10.take those away, we can design roads so pedestrians are separated from
:33:11. > :33:18.motor vehicles. What is the response to what has happened? The correct
:33:19. > :33:27.response as a Prime Minister said and the Mayor of London, we carry
:33:28. > :33:29.on. This sort of thing cannot be prevented completely, it is bound to
:33:30. > :33:32.happen and the main way to reduce terrorism is to reduce the impact of
:33:33. > :33:36.terrorism, if terrorists did not have much impact they would not do
:33:37. > :33:41.it, they would find something else. That is unrealistic because if you
:33:42. > :33:45.launch an attack on Westminster Bridge you will have worldwide
:33:46. > :33:53.coverage, guaranteed. That is something to do with the choosing of
:33:54. > :33:56.this location. Have we reached an era where the bombs are not
:33:57. > :34:04.necessarily any more? You do not need explosives or to learn about
:34:05. > :34:08.explosives, has become easier to become a terrorist that can make a
:34:09. > :34:15.global impact? It is clear we are living in an era of extremism, we
:34:16. > :34:20.witnessed the murder of Jo Cox last year by far right extremists and BC
:34:21. > :34:24.the global rise of extremism and the reality is this type of terrorism is
:34:25. > :34:29.not going to go away any time soon and so we must continue with
:34:30. > :34:36.resolution to try to champion our values and counter extremism and
:34:37. > :34:39.radicalisation and invest and support police and security agencies
:34:40. > :34:46.to empower communities and to work with young people, at multipronged
:34:47. > :34:51.level defeat extremism. As bomb-making come less valuable as a
:34:52. > :34:55.skill? We saw the government yesterday and the American
:34:56. > :35:00.government taking action against carrying laptops onto planes from
:35:01. > :35:05.certain places and that was about explosives, the fear that computers
:35:06. > :35:09.or something like that could contain exposes so I think bomb-making is a
:35:10. > :35:12.real concern to the authorities but with the availability of a kitchen
:35:13. > :35:21.knife and a car, terrorism is available to anybody. If you look at
:35:22. > :35:26.today, did you think that this really could have been a great deal
:35:27. > :35:33.worse? Or did you think this was as bad as it could get? In a way, the
:35:34. > :35:36.security at the Palace of Westminster stopped getting in, he
:35:37. > :35:45.did not far. Tragically, taking a life in the process. But in a sense,
:35:46. > :35:49.I don't know if we should feel this way but this was quite a limited
:35:50. > :35:54.attack? You are absolutely right, terrible death of Keith Palmer but
:35:55. > :35:59.nonetheless he did not get very far before he was tackled and brought
:36:00. > :36:05.down, there was a huge police response, as we saw on the news.
:36:06. > :36:09.That is something to bear in mind. The protection is there. The other
:36:10. > :36:13.thing is this sort of thing is incredibly rare and the risk to any
:36:14. > :36:17.particular member of the public, that they might be in the wrong
:36:18. > :36:24.place at the wrong time, is so small as to not affect our way of life. We
:36:25. > :36:28.are beginning to lose count of how many smaller incidents are occurring
:36:29. > :36:35.here and in other countries every now and again, some other deranged
:36:36. > :36:39.individual doing something like this, normally not with the impact
:36:40. > :36:46.of today. Is it becoming more normal? It depends what you define
:36:47. > :36:52.as normal, is a commonplace? I do not think it is, in respect of the
:36:53. > :36:55.UK, we have been rather fortunate compare to other European countries
:36:56. > :37:01.and in the Middle East so we have to deal with this threat and continue
:37:02. > :37:05.to challenge extremism and fight those who promote terrorist ideas
:37:06. > :37:10.and beliefs and prepare and protect the country from terrorism. Thank
:37:11. > :37:18.you both very much indeed. Let us hope we're not talking about this
:37:19. > :37:22.again too soon. Richard Watson has some information on the attack?
:37:23. > :37:28.There has been speculation on wrong information on the internet but I
:37:29. > :37:31.have been speaking to the international centre for the study
:37:32. > :37:35.of radicalisation at Kings College and they have interesting research
:37:36. > :37:40.that is quite persuasive. They are telling me that they have evidence
:37:41. > :37:47.that the car used in this attack was hired from enterprise rentals at
:37:48. > :37:51.Birmingham on the 16th of March, just six days ago, that is
:37:52. > :37:56.information, we cannot confirm it but is interesting. The 16th of
:37:57. > :38:02.March, enterprise cars in Birmingham. Do we know if that was a
:38:03. > :38:07.continual rental? I do not know that. There are many different
:38:08. > :38:09.scenarios we would have to think about, wasn't stolen? Thank you very
:38:10. > :38:13.much. One of the strange
:38:14. > :38:14.things about these days is the normality of them -
:38:15. > :38:17.so much busy city It's not that people
:38:18. > :38:20.are not moved or affected, or wanting to talk about it,
:38:21. > :38:23.they just might as well be That sentiment came through in
:38:24. > :38:26.the Prime Minister's words Tomorrow morning, Parliament
:38:27. > :38:30.will meet as normal. And Londoners and others from around
:38:31. > :38:36.the world who have come here to visit this great city
:38:37. > :38:39.will get up and go People will board their trains,
:38:40. > :38:46.they will leave their hotels, And we will all move
:38:47. > :38:54.forward together. Joining me now is former editor
:38:55. > :39:07.of the Evening Standard And director of the think tank,
:39:08. > :39:21.Centre for London, Ben Rogers. Do you see this as an attack on city
:39:22. > :39:28.'s? The city is such a tempting target. Big cities, Paris and
:39:29. > :39:34.Berlin? His recent attacks have been aimed at crowds and cities are all
:39:35. > :39:37.about crimes and it is easier, you are more vulnerable inner-city,
:39:38. > :39:44.every time you get on the Tube, I am vulnerable to attack but also in a
:39:45. > :39:48.way, cities where people help each other and some of the worst stories
:39:49. > :39:54.about child abuse and so on, they take place in closed institutions
:39:55. > :39:58.like orphanages and boarding schools. If you are walking down a
:39:59. > :40:06.country lane and a killer comes towards you, that is worse, walking
:40:07. > :40:11.down a city street... Exactly. Cities have a certain resilience.
:40:12. > :40:19.Simon, we have to choose on these occasions between minimising or
:40:20. > :40:22.maximising the response and this is a dilemma because you don't want to
:40:23. > :40:27.say this is nothing, 40 people injured and four innocent people
:40:28. > :40:34.tragically killed. On the other hand, you do not want to give them
:40:35. > :40:40.the publicity and sense of event that they want to create. That is
:40:41. > :40:44.what you have just done! There is a choice and the BBC has made the
:40:45. > :40:50.choice and they have opted with the terrorist. You cannot ignore it.
:40:51. > :40:55.Nobody is suggesting that, this is why I protest about the coverage you
:40:56. > :40:59.give to these incidents, you have a choice of prominence and the
:41:00. > :41:03.prominence given right now is aiding and abetting terrorism. I really
:41:04. > :41:10.feel that way, choose to treat this as a crime, under the IRA and PLO
:41:11. > :41:14.terrorists, they were treated as crimes, in this case, probably some
:41:15. > :41:19.crazy man who has gone gone mad has done something stupid and is dead,
:41:20. > :41:22.that is a crime. All of London people are doing crazy things with
:41:23. > :41:28.knives and guns and dying, this has taken place but said Parliament and
:41:29. > :41:33.people have died. This should be publicised but it is different from
:41:34. > :41:40.describing it with this culture of politics and Islam and religion and
:41:41. > :41:43.it is quite wrong and this is a new phenomenon, not on the part of the
:41:44. > :41:47.terrorists, this is a method of getting publicity and we give them
:41:48. > :41:55.the publicity. Do you agree? I do, partly. I was struck by how much
:41:56. > :42:02.coverage this has got. In London, we have a good story to tell about how
:42:03. > :42:05.although we have seen high levels of migration in recent years, we have
:42:06. > :42:09.managed very well and there are other migrant cities in the world,
:42:10. > :42:15.like New York, but what London has done is we invented ourselves as a
:42:16. > :42:22.migrant city and without any real pain. I think Simon would have put
:42:23. > :42:27.this on the front of his paper and the first seven or eight pages. I
:42:28. > :42:35.would have tried not to. First page, of course. The BBC led on the Nice
:42:36. > :42:43.attack for one week. What did the -- what Isis want them to do? That. The
:42:44. > :42:49.thing that. This getting as much attention is that it is happening
:42:50. > :42:52.more often and we do not want that. The IRA was interesting because it
:42:53. > :42:58.was directed at London and because of the crowds and quite
:42:59. > :43:02.deliberately, as I recall, it was downplayed, it was not ignored but
:43:03. > :43:08.downplayed and treated as a crime and the political significance of
:43:09. > :43:13.this was in a sense, it was Ireland and we understood it whereas we
:43:14. > :43:18.don't really understand Islam but there is this relentlessness of
:43:19. > :43:25.threat, menace, this publicity from the BBC, there was a drama a few
:43:26. > :43:31.weeks ago, publicity for terrorists. It is not the way to handle it.
:43:32. > :43:34.Always on these occasions, people come out, we heard the Prime
:43:35. > :43:41.Minister, this will not change us, we will not give in, it is almost a
:43:42. > :43:50.cliche. I do not know how we could let this change is? What would we
:43:51. > :43:57.do? It is very hard to do anything about that. It is extraordinary, the
:43:58. > :44:02.trend of these things, people do at once and others follow and it is-
:44:03. > :44:11.the security services to guess what is happening next. I think what
:44:12. > :44:19.Sadiq Khan and others are doing is talking the story up, this is a good
:44:20. > :44:22.story. This would have cost London millions in tourism and the more
:44:23. > :44:24.publicity, the more money it will cost. Thank you.
:44:25. > :44:26.Well, that's all we have time for tonight.
:44:27. > :44:31.But it is an interesting observation that while the news that someone
:44:32. > :44:34.is hell bent on killing as many ordinary people as possible could be
:44:35. > :44:36.seen as a sign of a country that is hateful or dysfunctional,
:44:37. > :44:39.there is a paradox that in aftermath of such on atrocity,
:44:40. > :44:41.you find everybody more harmonious than ever and united
:44:42. > :44:45.You heard the Prime Minister say the Commons and the Lords
:44:46. > :44:47.are scheduled to be back at work tomorrow.
:44:48. > :44:49.The tone will reflect unity rather than division.
:44:50. > :45:01.I'll be back with more tomorrow, but in the meantime - goodnight.
:45:02. > :45:07.It looks like there is some rain on the way tomorrow morning.
:45:08. > :45:10.Not for everybody but I think central and south western areas,
:45:11. > :45:13.including Wales, will have some rain first thing and the far south-west
:45:14. > :45:15.of the country will stay cloudy with spots of rain
:45:16. > :45:19.But the vast majority of the UK is in for a sunny day.
:45:20. > :45:22.The lion's share of the sunshine will be across the northern two
:45:23. > :45:25.Certainly Northern Ireland, Scotland and the North of England,
:45:26. > :45:28.right across the Pennines - a very different story tomorrow
:45:29. > :45:34.Look at all that clear weather from Yorkshire,
:45:35. > :45:39.The south-east, also a better day, no downpours
:45:40. > :45:45.But then the closer we get to the south coast, the thicker
:45:46. > :45:48.the cloud is and from the Isle of Wight, down through the West
:45:49. > :45:51.Country to the tip of Cornwall, I think there is a chance
:45:52. > :45:53.of encountering some rain at any time from morning
:45:54. > :45:57.Wales is not looking bad at all, apart from this southern tip
:45:58. > :46:00.so maybe Cardiff catching a few spots but for the bulk of
:46:01. > :46:04.Thursday into Friday, it looks like we're going to keep
:46:05. > :46:07.the dry weather through Friday and Saturday and Sunday looks