:00:08. > :00:16.SPEAKER: In respectful memory of those who lost their lives in
:00:17. > :00:19.yesterday's attack and of all the casualties of that attack we shall
:00:20. > :00:45.now observe a minute's silence. Politicians and the public
:00:46. > :00:53.pay their respects to the victims Khalid Masood was the man
:00:54. > :00:59.who attacked the heart of London. He had a history of convictions
:01:00. > :01:12.for violent crimes - Yesterday an act of terrorism tried
:01:13. > :01:17.to silence our democracy. But today we meet as normal, as generations
:01:18. > :01:24.have done before us and as future generations will continue to do. To
:01:25. > :01:27.deliver a simple message - we are not afraid.
:01:28. > :01:30.We'll ask what - if anything - we can do to stop another
:01:31. > :01:33.We'll ask the Security Minister if its time for more
:01:34. > :01:37.And - as Westminster Bridge re-opens we'll try and figure out
:01:38. > :01:46.The lights behind me turn green, the four by four moves forward and then
:01:47. > :01:48.it mounts the pavement. That's the moment when it is clear something is
:01:49. > :01:58.going wrong. The attack has begun. Perhaps the most striking thing
:01:59. > :02:05.about the man named today as yesterday's attacker is not
:02:06. > :02:08.that he was British-born - Nor that he had previous
:02:09. > :02:11.convictions, for public order offences, GBH and possession
:02:12. > :02:12.of offensive weapons. No, it is his age -
:02:13. > :02:15.he was 52 years old. That's a different profile to that
:02:16. > :02:18.of so many other attackers, who are characterised
:02:19. > :02:24.as young hot-heads. Although that is not believed to be
:02:25. > :02:37.his birth name. He personally hired the car used
:02:38. > :02:39.in the attack yesterday. As Richard Watson told us last
:02:40. > :02:42.night, it came from a branch of Enterprise Car Rental
:02:43. > :02:44.in Spring Hill, Birmingham. Masood gave his profession
:02:45. > :02:46.as "Teacher" when renting Well, here is Richard now,
:02:47. > :02:52.on what we know about the man. Terrorists are usually young, but
:02:53. > :02:57.the Westminster attack was carried out by one of the world's oldest,
:02:58. > :03:05.British citizen Khalid Masood. At 52 he was positively middle-aged.
:03:06. > :03:09.Khalid Masood was born in Kent on Christmas Day 1964. There is no
:03:10. > :03:13.birth listed with those details. Police say he used a number of
:03:14. > :03:19.aliases. He had a range of convictions. His first was in
:03:20. > :03:24.November 1983 for criminal damage. Others included GBH, possession of
:03:25. > :03:28.offensive weapons and public order offences. The last was for
:03:29. > :03:34.possession of a knife in December 2003. Police think he had been most
:03:35. > :03:37.recently living in the West Midlands. Police were searching for
:03:38. > :03:42.clues at a number of properties today. There were raids overnight in
:03:43. > :03:47.Birmingham in the Ladywood and Winson Green areas of the city.
:03:48. > :03:50.There has also been police activity in Wales, Forest gate in east
:03:51. > :03:58.London, Surrey and Sussex with eight arrests. In Birmingham where one
:03:59. > :04:00.woman was convinced that the man on the stretcher Khalid Masood, was her
:04:01. > :04:10.neighbour, who moved away two to three months ago. I spoke to him
:04:11. > :04:14.just once but it was just how are you? Not much conversation. He was a
:04:15. > :04:18.calm person. I feel terrorised and scared because I've lived in this
:04:19. > :04:23.house for 12 years and nothing like this has happened before and I could
:04:24. > :04:28.never imagine, I saw those things on the TV. The Enterprise car hire
:04:29. > :04:31.depot in Spring Hill, Birmingham, last night Newsnight revealed
:04:32. > :04:34.research by a team at Kings College London that showed the car used in
:04:35. > :04:39.the attack was hired from here. Using open source methodology we
:04:40. > :04:43.found out that the car was first registered in Essex, was then
:04:44. > :04:49.transferred over to Birmingham with Enterprise, the Spring Hill branch
:04:50. > :04:52.where it was rented on the 16th of March by Khalid Masood, six days
:04:53. > :04:56.before the attack which obviously begs the question, what was
:04:57. > :05:02.happening in the meantime? One focus for police is the missing six days,
:05:03. > :05:07.the car's movements. What I can confirm is that the man
:05:08. > :05:12.was British-born and that some years ago he was once investigated by MI5
:05:13. > :05:17.in relation to concerns about violent extremism. He was a
:05:18. > :05:21.peripheral figure. The case is historic. He was not part of the
:05:22. > :05:28.current intelligence picture. There was no prior intelligence of his
:05:29. > :05:33.intent or the plot, intensive investigations continue. This very
:05:34. > :05:38.early admission that Khalid Masood was on the radar seems to be an
:05:39. > :05:43.attempt to take the sting out of any criticism. Security sources also
:05:44. > :05:46.told us he was a peripheral figure. Newsnight understands MI5 has
:05:47. > :05:53.started a systematic re-evaluation of intelligence on Masood.
:05:54. > :05:56.The language is striking force of the term peripheral was also used to
:05:57. > :06:02.describe the London bombers Mohammad Sidique Khan. This programme
:06:03. > :06:05.revealed that in 2005 Mohammad Sidique Khan featured in MI5
:06:06. > :06:10.surveillance into an earlier plot and when that story was confirmed
:06:11. > :06:16.much later in a visual report he was once again described as a peripheral
:06:17. > :06:18.figure. You can see why they are sensitive.
:06:19. > :06:25.Security sources have told Newsnight that more than 3000 people in the UK
:06:26. > :06:28.are persons of interest in relation to violent extremism. Many will be
:06:29. > :06:33.low risk but sifting the wheat from the chaff is a huge challenge. The
:06:34. > :06:38.fact that the security service cannot offer 100% protection from
:06:39. > :06:44.such attacks in a liberal democracy is now an admission officials
:06:45. > :06:46.realise must be made and made early. Richard Watson there.
:06:47. > :06:48.Joining me is the former Head of the National Counter
:06:49. > :06:49.Terrorism Security Office, Chris Phillips.
:06:50. > :06:51.And Anas Altikriti, who's founder and CEO
:06:52. > :07:03.Before we go further, the age, Chris, surprised, 52? It's unusual
:07:04. > :07:08.but it is not out of the ordinary. In other countries we have had
:07:09. > :07:12.people of an old age but yes, it is unusual. It is unusual for a reason,
:07:13. > :07:18.that you tend to think the younger ones are just more prone to be
:07:19. > :07:21.radicalised, have more of an open mind to be brainwashed or whatever.
:07:22. > :07:24.Whether or not he has been brainwashed, or whether he is
:07:25. > :07:29.suffering from some sort of mental illness that is quite feasible as
:07:30. > :07:33.well. It is quite unusual. Do you also find the age surprising?
:07:34. > :07:38.Surprising in terms of it being out of sync with the most recent attacks
:07:39. > :07:44.that we've seen across Europe, probably. But I think that the
:07:45. > :07:49.playbook on terrorism and the profiles of prospective terrorists,
:07:50. > :07:59.I think that needs to be re-addressed. It has the hallmarks
:08:00. > :08:01.of a lone wolf attack. He used very low-tech, very primitive means, he
:08:02. > :08:07.didn't have any explosives, he didn't have any guns as such, a
:08:08. > :08:11.kitchen knife and a car which proved deadly in this particular
:08:12. > :08:14.circumstance, but nonetheless, I think the whole thing needs to be
:08:15. > :08:20.looked at. We really need to know more about this man. What we know
:08:21. > :08:26.now is that he was born and bred in Britain and we know that he had a
:08:27. > :08:29.catalogue of criminal offences. Smaller criminal offences, right.
:08:30. > :08:33.Let's drill down into this issue of how you prevent, and I use the word
:08:34. > :08:38.deliberately because that's the name of the government policy for doing
:08:39. > :08:42.it, how do you prevent people from becoming radicalised, and that is
:08:43. > :08:47.your department, Anas. We have this dilemma, gently, who you bring into
:08:48. > :08:53.the Prevent strategy? Only allow mainstream thinkers to help us take
:08:54. > :08:59.people away from the radicals, or do you allow people who you might call
:09:00. > :09:04.semi-radical to help woo the people from more extreme radicals? I think
:09:05. > :09:09.the main problem, you are talking about who to bring into Prevent, I
:09:10. > :09:15.think Prevent itself is a major problem and successive governments
:09:16. > :09:22.have proposed strategies that are built on baseless ideas and
:09:23. > :09:27.information about the community. The Muslim community is a very complex,
:09:28. > :09:35.very diverse mosaic of all sorts of cultures, backgrounds and traditions
:09:36. > :09:40.within Islam. Unfortunately Prevent has managed over the past, I would
:09:41. > :09:45.suggest, since 2005, to alienate more than 90% of that Muslim
:09:46. > :09:48.community. Therefore, it has proven to be divisive, rather than as we
:09:49. > :09:51.need today, for the whole community to come together and be in sync with
:09:52. > :09:57.the whole British public in finding this quite offensive... I know that
:09:58. > :10:01.David Cameron thought your group, he called you a political front for the
:10:02. > :10:08.Muslim Brotherhood and didn't want you to be used by the state to help
:10:09. > :10:13.sway people from more radical views. Do you see there is a dilemma that
:10:14. > :10:17.there are lots of people in the mainstream Muslim world whose views
:10:18. > :10:20.are acceptable and some whose views are abhorrent to most British
:10:21. > :10:24.people? It depends whether we are talking about political views. I
:10:25. > :10:28.think this is where for instance David Cameron found my organisation
:10:29. > :10:33.to be distasteful to him, and why for instance we are being shut out
:10:34. > :10:37.from any kind of consultation. Not that we are actively seeking it, we
:10:38. > :10:40.are busy enough. But the problem is you either talk to people who are
:10:41. > :10:45.either engaged on the streets and who get to meet the vulnerable pool
:10:46. > :10:50.of people who might be driven, and might be attracted to extremism and
:10:51. > :10:55.radicalism, or if you wish you can talk to those who say the things you
:10:56. > :10:59.like, who stand by the politics of government. That's the dilemma. The
:11:00. > :11:03.problem is we are facing what I would suggest is quite a serious
:11:04. > :11:09.threat and governments need to rise above the churlishness honoured to
:11:10. > :11:13.be honest. So in a word... Saying I don't like what you think and
:11:14. > :11:18.therefore I will not engage with you. So you would engage more
:11:19. > :11:20.widely? Not more widely but with the people that matter, even though they
:11:21. > :11:24.might harbour political views the government disagrees with. Chris
:11:25. > :11:29.Kermode let's talk about the security aspect of this. First of
:11:30. > :11:33.all, would you consider this an intelligence failure? The fact he
:11:34. > :11:38.was known and not being watched, is that by definition an intelligence
:11:39. > :11:42.failure? No, absolutely not, and there will be a rush to blame people
:11:43. > :11:47.for this, as there always is, and we must steer away from it. This is a
:11:48. > :11:51.person that has passed among many years ago, involved in violence. May
:11:52. > :11:56.have been on the periphery of terrorism in some way. There are too
:11:57. > :12:00.many people with that profile for you to watch them all? Literally
:12:01. > :12:05.thousands. If you think of surveillance on one person for 24
:12:06. > :12:08.hours is going to be 850 person police officer job, we haven't got
:12:09. > :12:14.enough police officers in the world to do that. -- a 50 person police
:12:15. > :12:17.officer job. A lot of people were surprised it was a protection
:12:18. > :12:21.officer who shot him rather than one of the police at the Palace of
:12:22. > :12:25.Westminster. You need to understand how the Palace of Westminster works.
:12:26. > :12:30.The police are there almost as guests of the Parliamentary team and
:12:31. > :12:36.have to carry the weapons they are given to some extent. Yes, it's
:12:37. > :12:42.interesting that there wasn't the machine gun guys nearby. But, of
:12:43. > :12:48.course, this was a success actually for the security of the Palace. He
:12:49. > :12:53.didn't get in. He walked five or six yards and was taken out. What would
:12:54. > :12:58.change? If you asked the police, guys, what would you do? What would
:12:59. > :13:03.you change? Would you say more guns and more armed officers? More
:13:04. > :13:07.Tasers? What do you think? The average officer is now moving
:13:08. > :13:10.towards being armed, however, there is an inclination to say we don't
:13:11. > :13:11.need to go down that route yet. The most important thing is there is
:13:12. > :13:25.enough resources given to the police to do the job properly.
:13:26. > :13:27.Tasers are an interesting one because if this officer had had a
:13:28. > :13:30.Taser, dealing with a knife attack is quite feasible. How many officers
:13:31. > :13:32.have tasers? A small amount who are on response teams, the important
:13:33. > :13:35.thing is to realise there are less officers on the street now than ever
:13:36. > :13:37.before and if this attack had happened anywhere but the most
:13:38. > :13:41.policed building in the country the results would have been different.
:13:42. > :13:43.We need to leave it there. Anas and Chris, thank you.
:13:44. > :13:46.After the 7/7 attack 12 years ago now, when the names of victims
:13:47. > :13:49.emerged, it was one of the first occasions that you could register
:13:50. > :13:51.just how international London had become; so many
:13:52. > :13:56.Well, yesterday's attack hit a tourist site, and it is not
:13:57. > :13:58.surprising that the victims there came from 11
:13:59. > :14:04.One man from Utah was among the dead, Kurt Cochran.
:14:05. > :14:07.And one British woman with a Spanish background also died - Aysha Frade.
:14:08. > :14:10.Boris Johnson was at the UN in New York today, and said
:14:11. > :14:12.the attack on London, was an attack on the world.
:14:13. > :14:14.John Sweeney has the story of what happened yesterday
:14:15. > :14:30.The horror started at 2:40pm. 24 hours on Westminster Bridge is open.
:14:31. > :14:38.But it's time to try and understand what happened here as best we can.
:14:39. > :14:41.The lights behind me turned green, the four by four moves forward and
:14:42. > :14:44.then it mounts the pavement. That's the moment when its clear something
:14:45. > :14:54.is going wrong. The attack has begun. The car was a four by four,
:14:55. > :14:57.Khalid Masood behind the wheel. The four by four is accelerating hard
:14:58. > :15:02.and here it hits the first group of people. There is an American
:15:03. > :15:08.standing here and he is hit so hard he is thrown over this wall. Kurt
:15:09. > :15:12.Cochran was in London to celebrate his 25th wedding anniversary. His
:15:13. > :15:19.wife was injured but survived. His death was announced today. I got a
:15:20. > :15:25.quick look over the wall and see this guideline on the ground. The
:15:26. > :15:28.doctors arrived two seconds after I see that. Sebastien Ramos, eating
:15:29. > :15:36.from Colombia, was cycling across the bridge on his way home. He was
:15:37. > :15:43.not moving. I stared at him for 20, 30 seconds and he just did not move.
:15:44. > :15:48.He was so white. Watch the white circle moving from right to left,
:15:49. > :15:54.that is Khalid Masood's four by four barrelling along the pavement at
:15:55. > :15:59.high speed. There's been an accident, a car has just mown down
:16:00. > :16:05.about three people on Westminster Bridge. People start calling 999 and
:16:06. > :16:11.hurrying to help the injured. Almost every tourist who comes to London
:16:12. > :16:18.comes to Westminster Bridge. This is one of the great selfie spots in
:16:19. > :16:24.London. There is a group of people here, among them a remaining
:16:25. > :16:26.architect. She is with a bloke in London, it's his birthday. And then
:16:27. > :16:33.this second group of people are ploughed through by Khalid Masood.
:16:34. > :16:37.This is the moment when she is thrown or jumps off the bridge. She
:16:38. > :16:44.was seen floating down the river but was rescued. Her condition is
:16:45. > :16:48.critical. Today Londoners and the world came to pay their respects.
:16:49. > :16:55.Three dead on the bridge at least. Why choose here? It would strike at
:16:56. > :16:58.the very heart of our democracy, the seat of our democracy at the Houses
:16:59. > :17:03.of Parliament. Plus maybe the tourist factor. This is always a
:17:04. > :17:10.honeypot for tourists. It's a beautiful bridge, beautiful setting.
:17:11. > :17:14.And that was possibly his motives. So at this point Khalid Masood had
:17:15. > :17:18.been driving at speed for 200 metres, maybe more, the length of
:17:19. > :17:22.Westminster Bridge. He comes here and wipes out a third group of
:17:23. > :17:32.people. Then there's a security barrier there and he's beginning to
:17:33. > :17:36.run out of road. My god. He wasn't done. He crashed below Big Ben,
:17:37. > :17:42.trapping one more bystander against the railings. Yesterday Westminster
:17:43. > :17:48.Bridge saw cruelty beyond belief, but also something else. As soon as
:17:49. > :17:53.I get to the bridge, so many people rushed to the victims trying to help
:17:54. > :18:01.them. The only thing I can do for them is pray for them. The story
:18:02. > :18:05.ended in Parliament with Masood taking one more life and then it was
:18:06. > :18:08.the end of him. This old Bridge has seen a lot in its time. Yesterday's
:18:09. > :18:20.horror was met today with resolution. Life and London goes on.
:18:21. > :18:24.Before we move on a video has emerged.
:18:25. > :18:27.Tonight a video has emerged of the Prime Minister being lead
:18:28. > :18:31.to a car in the House of Commons just moments after the attack.
:18:32. > :18:32.It's been released by the Sun newspaper.
:18:33. > :18:37.She is surrounded by protection officers.
:18:38. > :18:42.It is clearly a very tense situation.
:18:43. > :18:44.This morning she was back in the Commons.
:18:45. > :18:46.She said it would be open for business this
:18:47. > :18:54.As you'd expect it was a sombre occasion as MPs paid their respects
:18:55. > :18:55.to the victims of yesterday's attack.
:18:56. > :18:58.Members on all sides paid tribute to Keith Palmer -
:18:59. > :19:02.and to those who fought so valiantly to save him.
:19:03. > :19:17.We shall now observe a minute's silence.
:19:18. > :19:20.A police officer, PC Keith Palmer, was killed defending us,
:19:21. > :19:30.defending Parliament and defending Parliamentary democracy.
:19:31. > :19:37.He was every inch a hero and his actions will never be forgotten.
:19:38. > :19:41.PC Keith Palmer, who I first met 25 years ago as Gunner Keith Palmer
:19:42. > :19:45.at Headquarters Battery 100 Regiment, Royal Artillery.
:19:46. > :19:53.He was a strong, professional public servant.
:19:54. > :19:57.And it was a delight to meet him here again only a few months
:19:58. > :20:11.Not only did he show huge professionalism in putting his past
:20:12. > :20:15.training to the use and the hope that he had of rescuing
:20:16. > :20:20.the life of PC Keith Palmer, but of course it was in the middle
:20:21. > :20:22.of a terrorist attack and our right honourable friend
:20:23. > :20:25.is somebody who knows the trauma and tragedy of losing somebody
:20:26. > :20:37.This attacker and people like him are not of my religion,
:20:38. > :20:39.nor are they of our community, and we should condemn
:20:40. > :20:42.all of them who pretend to be of a particular religion,
:20:43. > :20:46.If they were of religion they would not be carrying
:20:47. > :20:51.We have to stay united and show them that they can't win on these grounds
:20:52. > :20:58.This was an horrific crime and it has cost lives and caused injury.
:20:59. > :21:02.But as an act of terror it has failed.
:21:03. > :21:05.It has failed because we are here and we are going to go
:21:06. > :21:23.Our political editor, Nick Watt, is here.
:21:24. > :21:28.Parliament, the Palace of Westminster, are there, since that
:21:29. > :21:32.security, for all the fact he did not get far, are their concerns
:21:33. > :21:35.about security? There are real concerns about senior MPs and senior
:21:36. > :21:42.peers that this attack could have been far worse. The BBC reported
:21:43. > :21:45.that Masood was shot dead light protection officers protecting the
:21:46. > :21:50.Defence Secretary Michael Fallon. In other words he was not shot by armed
:21:51. > :21:54.police attached to Parliament. I spoke to one former Cabinet minister
:21:55. > :21:57.who told me that had those protection officers not been on the
:21:58. > :22:01.Parliamentary estate, because of course ministers spend most of their
:22:02. > :22:05.time outside Parliament, then Khalid Masood could have ventured much
:22:06. > :22:08.further. Interesting in that statement the speaker made pretty
:22:09. > :22:13.clear there is going to be a lessons learned review launched. The other
:22:14. > :22:18.question people are asking, he was known to the police and MI5, was
:22:19. > :22:23.this an intelligence failure? That's what we had in Richard Watson's
:22:24. > :22:27.report, he was on the MI5 radar a number of years ago in connection
:22:28. > :22:30.with violent extremism, although he was a peripheral figure. Amber Rudd
:22:31. > :22:36.this evening told the BBC it would be wrong to blame the intelligence,
:22:37. > :22:39.MI5 for a failure. The reason why ministers believe there was not an
:22:40. > :22:43.intelligence failure if they believe that this attack exactly fitted the
:22:44. > :22:48.mould identified in recent years by Andrew Parker, the MI5
:22:49. > :22:51.director-general, talking about lone actors launching attacks, almost
:22:52. > :22:55.impossible to detect. Andrew Parker said these attacks would be of
:22:56. > :22:59.relatively low sophistication but of course they would be deadly.
:23:00. > :23:04.Interesting this use of intelligence will be investigated by Parliament
:23:05. > :23:07.intelligence and Security committee. They are taking the view that Andrew
:23:08. > :23:09.Parker's warning has clearly come true. Thank you.
:23:10. > :23:12.Earlier I spoke to the Security Minister - Ben Wallace.
:23:13. > :23:14.I asked him about reports it was a minister's close protection
:23:15. > :23:17.officer who shot Masood, and if there had been any other
:23:18. > :23:23.First of all I'm not going to speculate on the allegations that
:23:24. > :23:26.you make about who actually was involved in the shooting.
:23:27. > :23:30.I think what I can certainly say is that anybody who works
:23:31. > :23:32.there or goes there and I know you've been there yourself,
:23:33. > :23:37.there are plenty of armed officers around the House of Commons
:23:38. > :23:39.and House of Lords, both inside and outside and also
:23:40. > :23:43.the area, the sort of government quarter, there's a whole range
:23:44. > :23:44.of police forces that cover that area.
:23:45. > :23:49.Diplomatic protection, Metropolitan Police and other police
:23:50. > :23:51.and there are plenty of guns available and on show
:23:52. > :23:57.OK, let's take another area, that of surveillance.
:23:58. > :24:00.Again it's an area where you need to strike the right balance
:24:01. > :24:06.between keeping an eye on bad people and respecting individual liberties.
:24:07. > :24:09.Are you satisfied that balance is right at the moment?
:24:10. > :24:15.We have, we think, got the balance right.
:24:16. > :24:17.That's why we passed the Investigatory Powers Act
:24:18. > :24:19.through Parliament only recently supported by all parties
:24:20. > :24:23.in the House of Commons and the House of Lords.
:24:24. > :24:27.But it is a balance that we constantly review.
:24:28. > :24:30.In law we have to do everything that is proportionate and necessary.
:24:31. > :24:33.And despite the criticisms we get from a whole range of commentators
:24:34. > :24:36.and sometimes people in the media will say that the surveillance state
:24:37. > :24:45.Actually from what I see first hand, our surveillance officers
:24:46. > :24:48.and police absolutely stick to that law and try their very best to make
:24:49. > :24:53.It's a big challenge and a big responsibility for those people.
:24:54. > :24:56.It is, but you take someone like Khalid Masood, who is known
:24:57. > :24:59.to the police but not thought to be so risky that needs
:25:00. > :25:11.Is there a category of person into which he would have fallen where
:25:12. > :25:15.you will now say we should be erring on the side of keeping a closer
:25:16. > :25:19.That is a general principle about to what extent we decide
:25:20. > :25:22.to put people under surveillance and have that public debate,
:25:23. > :25:24.which is what we did during the Investigatory Powers Act.
:25:25. > :25:27.A number of people have come to the High Court and even
:25:28. > :25:33.It's not about the act, it's about the resources
:25:34. > :25:36.you are willing to put into following those people
:25:37. > :25:39.No, no, it's actually about the legal framework
:25:40. > :25:43.I ask regularly our intelligence services and police if they have
:25:44. > :25:48.enough resources in the area of counterterrorism specifically.
:25:49. > :25:51.That's why we gave them a 30% real terms increase on counterterrorism
:25:52. > :25:53.funding across Whitehall to deal with the problem.
:25:54. > :26:01.We police by consent in this society and we have to try
:26:02. > :26:04.and make the balance of what is politically possible.
:26:05. > :26:06.Some of my colleagues are authoritarian,
:26:07. > :26:15.These things wouldn't get through Parliament unless we try
:26:16. > :26:19.and seek a balance to make sure the law is in place to do the job.
:26:20. > :26:21.And I think this is something that's really important
:26:22. > :26:23.about intelligence here and it happens all too frequently.
:26:24. > :26:25.A long time ago I was an intelligence officer
:26:26. > :26:27.in Northern Ireland, I dealt with intelligence
:26:28. > :26:35.Intelligence is not 100% perfect, it's often scraps or tiny
:26:36. > :26:39.And intelligence officers and police have to try and stick those together
:26:40. > :26:47.and make judgments on very often impartial information.
:26:48. > :26:49.Those judgments are high risk, often, but more often
:26:50. > :26:52.than not they get it right, and no one ever does programmes
:26:53. > :26:55.about the 400 pieces of intelligence that were dealt with correctly
:26:56. > :26:58.They always try and see or make allegations
:26:59. > :27:03.I wasn't implying it was an intelligence failure.
:27:04. > :27:09.I'm just asking whether there's a lesson to be learnt from this.
:27:10. > :27:12.Both on guns and surveillance your answer has been, effectively,
:27:13. > :27:16.you are fairly satisfied with where we are.
:27:17. > :27:19.And I suppose the question that leads me to is whether we just have
:27:20. > :27:25.to accept there is a certain inevitability about the odd lone
:27:26. > :27:31.wolf attackers wielding great harm using weapons like cars or knives?
:27:32. > :27:34.Well, we have consistently said it's not a matter if but when.
:27:35. > :27:39.We have dealt with terrorism in this country for decades.
:27:40. > :27:42.Originally, from all over the world, including in my childhood
:27:43. > :27:51.Northern Irish terrorism, and now obviously international
:27:52. > :27:55.We have always said, look, we know these things are very
:27:56. > :27:58.Some of the threats are very hard to stop.
:27:59. > :28:01.If somebody wants to suddenly change their mind, get in a car,
:28:02. > :28:04.or grab a knife and stab the first person next to them,
:28:05. > :28:07.it's a real challenge of how we are going to deal with that.
:28:08. > :28:09.That's why we've invested in our intelligence services
:28:10. > :28:11.and some of the surveillance capabilities that we often
:28:12. > :28:16.But it's also why we try and make sure the public are involved in this
:28:17. > :28:19.debate because it is community, it is neighbours and friends
:28:20. > :28:23.and parents and teachers that can help prevent people
:28:24. > :28:26.being radicalised in the first place, or make a call
:28:27. > :28:28.to the police or local authority if they are worried about how
:28:29. > :28:34.And that's how we are really going to make sure we minimise the risk.
:28:35. > :28:37.Is making sure the public and communities of all faiths,
:28:38. > :28:39.all up and down this country, engage with our security services
:28:40. > :28:43.That's how we will prevent people becoming radicalised and how
:28:44. > :28:45.we will protect the public and reduce the risk.
:28:46. > :28:51.It is inevitable that every atrocity prompts a discussion about how
:28:52. > :28:53.we can do things differently, to obstruct those
:28:54. > :29:02.Now this makes for difficult decisions - you'll hear the claim
:29:03. > :29:05.that we mustn't yield to terror by changing our lives -
:29:06. > :29:07.but of course over the years we have altered things -
:29:08. > :29:10.the rules of what we take on planes, security at buildings.
:29:11. > :29:12.So are there lessons to be drawn from yesterday's attack,
:29:13. > :29:18.in Antwerp today, when a car accelerated at a crowd
:29:19. > :29:27.Our policy editor, Chris Cook, looks at whether we can design
:29:28. > :29:30.cities that are safer against these attacks.
:29:31. > :29:37.Yesterday's attack began with a card being used as a weapon against
:29:38. > :29:41.pedestrians on Westminster Bridge. Today in Antwerp the authorities
:29:42. > :29:49.believe they have prevented a similar attack. Last year truck
:29:50. > :29:56.attacks killed 98 people in Nice and Berlin. So, can we make our cities
:29:57. > :30:00.safer against weaponised vehicles? When you hear about hardening cities
:30:01. > :30:04.against attack by terrorists you might think of the ugly concrete
:30:05. > :30:09.blocks that appear at events in London like the one happening
:30:10. > :30:14.tonight in memory of the victims of yesterday's attack. But actually a
:30:15. > :30:18.lot of the hardening of our urban environments is quite subtle. This
:30:19. > :30:21.is the Cabinet Office, the centre of our government. It has a wall
:30:22. > :30:26.running in front of most of it which looks like old crumbly sandstone but
:30:27. > :30:36.it's actually a high-tech barrier that would stop they lorry. The UK
:30:37. > :30:40.worried about this for years, this is a 7.5 tonne truck taking part in
:30:41. > :30:47.a regular test at the transport research laboratory in Berkshire.
:30:48. > :30:51.This is a long-standing issue in urban design. We even have very
:30:52. > :30:54.clearly defined strengthening standards for by Lance. One of the
:30:55. > :30:58.things that's been going on for a long time now is the creation of
:30:59. > :31:02.hard landscaping to provide a barrier between the roads and
:31:03. > :31:07.pedestrians -- by Lance. These can be in the form of large stone
:31:08. > :31:13.structures we can see her in Whitehall and steel bollards most of
:31:14. > :31:19.us appreciate are there to stop vehicles getting onto pavements. But
:31:20. > :31:23.also things like landscaping in the form of planters, or belts of
:31:24. > :31:25.landscaping, anything that provides what is called stand-off between
:31:26. > :31:31.vehicles and buildings and pedestrians. There are, though,
:31:32. > :31:36.limits to what we can do with hardened environments. The concept
:31:37. > :31:46.of target hardening has some practical limitations. You cannot
:31:47. > :31:53.paralyse an entire city by putting barriers, or closing off entire
:31:54. > :31:57.areas to transit without having any impact on the transport and daily
:31:58. > :32:00.life of a city. On the other hand you are incurring the risk of
:32:01. > :32:04.displacing the threat somewhere else. The entire city cannot be a
:32:05. > :32:09.fortress so if a terrorist realises about an area is too hard to hit
:32:10. > :32:13.they will just move the attention somewhere else.
:32:14. > :32:18.So, in the end, the answer has to be stopping assaults. How, though, do
:32:19. > :32:21.you stop people whose plans need so little planning?
:32:22. > :32:27.Obviously you have to continue to beef up intelligence. But
:32:28. > :32:31.intelligence is not necessarily end of the technological spectrum,
:32:32. > :32:35.trying to track chatter in the Middle East and that sort of stuff,
:32:36. > :32:39.which is useful but probably not terribly relevant to the sort of
:32:40. > :32:44.things which happened in Nice last year and possibly in London
:32:45. > :32:47.yesterday. But what I would call community intelligence. But in
:32:48. > :33:08.French we would call renseignement de
:33:09. > :33:10.proximite. It depends how much we are prepared to put up with. Chris
:33:11. > :33:12.Cooke, there. Well, there is a pattern
:33:13. > :33:15.to the reaction in major It reflects the fact
:33:16. > :33:18.that there is something more traumatic for a population,
:33:19. > :33:20.about death and injury at the hands of someone trying to do harm,
:33:21. > :33:23.than in the normal urban routine. You've seen the same defiance,
:33:24. > :33:29.sentiment and unity in Paris, Brussels and in London,
:33:30. > :33:32.and there was a vigil at Trafalgar Square this evening,
:33:33. > :33:35.and I went down to talk to people Well, the short ceremony
:33:36. > :33:51.is over, the vigil is over. We heard words from Amber Rudd,
:33:52. > :33:53.the Home Secretary, from the Mayor A familiar message about how London
:33:54. > :34:04.will and should react to events And then the silence observed not
:34:05. > :34:08.just by the many people in the square but of course
:34:09. > :34:11.by the lack of traffic around. I think it's that sense
:34:12. > :34:14.of solidarity with being a Londoner. I've lived here for about 20 years,
:34:15. > :34:18.I love the diversity of this city. What happened yesterday
:34:19. > :34:20.was a horrendous thing. You can't let it put up barriers
:34:21. > :34:27.against people who are different. You've just got to come together
:34:28. > :34:29.and that's happened here. My heart goes out to the victims
:34:30. > :34:32.who have tragically lost their lives And I actually live in Birmingham
:34:33. > :34:50.and I actually drove past this particular place that was raided
:34:51. > :34:53.yesterday, and I work in London, so I thought I'd come
:34:54. > :34:55.and pay my respects today. I think as a Londoner you do feel
:34:56. > :34:58.connected and you want to be with fellow Londoners
:34:59. > :35:00.at a time like this. But I also feel that at the same
:35:01. > :35:04.time it reminds me of everyone who's under these kind of attacks
:35:05. > :35:06.around the world. Obviously when terrible things
:35:07. > :35:09.happen like what happened yesterday it's sometimes very difficult
:35:10. > :35:13.to kind of continue to feel positive about how
:35:14. > :35:15.we can work together. But I personally have faith
:35:16. > :35:17.in people to continue Today I was expecting
:35:18. > :35:22.most of us to be Muslims But when I see different cultures
:35:23. > :35:28.standing for that thing, It shows you that
:35:29. > :35:45.still the world is OK. The scenes at the Trafalgar Square
:35:46. > :35:50.vigil earlier. Richard Watson, who you heard from the programme today
:35:51. > :35:53.and yesterday, briefly joins me. Richard, more information in the
:35:54. > :35:58.last few minutes about Khalid Masood. That's right, this wire copy
:35:59. > :36:02.has dropped and the BBC has confirmed the name of Khalid Masood
:36:03. > :36:06.and this is a story the Daily Mail were running, it wasn't confirmed
:36:07. > :36:11.until now but now the BBC has confirmed it, his birth name was
:36:12. > :36:16.Adrian elms, born in Dartford in Kent and lived at various times in
:36:17. > :36:21.Rye, Crawley, West Sussex, Eastbourne in East Sussex, the BBC
:36:22. > :36:27.confirms this is a man who has been convicted of knife crime offences --
:36:28. > :36:29.Adrian Elms. That tallies with information put out by the
:36:30. > :36:31.Metropolitan Police. This is the first confirmation of that. Richard,
:36:32. > :36:33.thank you. Let's move on to
:36:34. > :36:35.another subject now. And Hillary Clinton's
:36:36. > :36:37.election campaign manager, John Podesta is in London
:36:38. > :36:40.at the moment, for The Economist Now Podesta's name is perhaps
:36:41. > :36:44.most famous for the fact that it was his emails that
:36:45. > :36:46.were hacked, and which caused embarrassment
:36:47. > :36:48.to the Clinton campaign. But he has a long career in politics
:36:49. > :36:52.on the Democrat side - he was chief of staff
:36:53. > :36:54.to President Bill Clinton in the White House under President
:36:55. > :36:57.Obama. It was Mr Podesta who came
:36:58. > :37:00.on stage on election night, I met up with him earlier today,
:37:01. > :37:04.to talk about politics, here and in the US,
:37:05. > :37:06.and his experience But first, in light of his speech
:37:07. > :37:13.at the summit, I asked him how the world should respond to any
:37:14. > :37:16.decision by President Trump to pull The most fundamental
:37:17. > :37:22.problem is what he's doing in the United States
:37:23. > :37:25.which is to really attack the fundamental pillars
:37:26. > :37:29.of environmental protection. He's set the country on a course
:37:30. > :37:32.that is really ignoring the science and ignoring
:37:33. > :37:37.the tremendous cost that the United States
:37:38. > :37:40.and of course the world will be faced
:37:41. > :37:43.with as a result of climate change. You happen to be
:37:44. > :37:48.in London at the time horrendous incident in Westminster
:37:49. > :37:52.yesterday. should react to these
:37:53. > :37:56.atrocities? Look, I think you have to do
:37:57. > :37:59.everything you can to protect to justice the people who are
:38:00. > :38:08.responsible. I know that the assailant
:38:09. > :38:12.was killed yesterday but there are others who appear to be
:38:13. > :38:16.involved and need to be arrested. But I think you also
:38:17. > :38:19.have to try to retain and be restrained in terms
:38:20. > :38:21.of retaining your ability to operate
:38:22. > :38:27.in a free and open way. It's five months now
:38:28. > :38:28.since the election In a nutshell, what's your account
:38:29. > :38:35.of why he prevailed? He was able to put together
:38:36. > :38:37.narrow wins in Wisconsin got him the victory in the electoral
:38:38. > :38:47.college. He had a little assist from
:38:48. > :38:51.the Russians as we are finding out more from every day,
:38:52. > :38:54.and a little assist actually from our
:38:55. > :38:58.director of the FBI. How do you think liberal America
:38:59. > :39:01.should react to what we are seeing President Trump
:39:02. > :39:04.is doing and what he's like in his I think you see it
:39:05. > :39:09.out on the street. You saw it the day after his
:39:10. > :39:12.inauguration with the women's march, marches
:39:13. > :39:13.that took place. And you support that
:39:14. > :39:15.kind of approach? Absolutely, I'm fully
:39:16. > :39:16.into the resistance. And what would happen
:39:17. > :39:19.if there was no resistance? I think that we would see
:39:20. > :39:24.a growing authoritarianism. And I think we've seen that
:39:25. > :39:26.played out across other places, particularly
:39:27. > :39:31.in Eastern Europe, In a way, what you are
:39:32. > :39:37.describing sounds, well, unprecedented, really,
:39:38. > :39:43.in the history of democracy. I think we are in a whole
:39:44. > :39:46.different world with somebody who, to cite
:39:47. > :39:57.the latest example, When every person who is a member
:39:58. > :40:12.of his administration from law there's absolutely zero evidence of
:40:13. > :40:16.that. Well he says, in defence to him,
:40:17. > :40:18.he says he feels partly vindicated on that because maybe, we
:40:19. > :40:22.haven't seen the evidence, but maybe No, he said at the
:40:23. > :40:25.beginning that President Obama ordered tapping
:40:26. > :40:28.of him, that was a lie. You mentioned the Russian hacking
:40:29. > :40:30.which was a help to the In the big picture, how big
:40:31. > :40:36.a difference do you think the Podesta e-mails, how big
:40:37. > :40:38.a difference to you think they made? One of the things they did,
:40:39. > :40:41.they kept that whole idea of e-mails So none of the particular
:40:42. > :40:45.e-mails, many of them hardly got above the radar in
:40:46. > :40:48.mainstream media, but in the social media there was a kind
:40:49. > :40:53.of subterranean effect. And I think it laid
:40:54. > :40:58.the groundwork when Mr Comey came in and reopened
:40:59. > :41:03.the e-mail investigation. The public confused
:41:04. > :41:05.and conflated all that and eight days later when he said never mind,
:41:06. > :41:09.there's nothing to this, it still had a corrosive effect
:41:10. > :41:12.on the campaign. What did you think as you saw your
:41:13. > :41:21.words, words sent to you being paraded in
:41:22. > :41:23.respectable journalists? Did you think they were doing
:41:24. > :41:25.their job or that they should I was just trying to deal
:41:26. > :41:29.with it on a daily basis. I thought that the reflection
:41:30. > :41:34.of where they came from and the fact that there was substantiation that
:41:35. > :41:36.the Russians had hacked my e-mails, the DNC e-mails, that Wikileaks
:41:37. > :41:40.was an instrument of an attempt by Vladimir Putin and the Russian
:41:41. > :41:47.Federation to undermine our democracy, that could have been
:41:48. > :41:54.reflected in the press and I don't And I think that was actually
:41:55. > :42:01.a failing on behalf of the mainstream media and particularly
:42:02. > :42:04.some of the major news outlets in What should the Labour
:42:05. > :42:21.Party do here? It's in a very low place
:42:22. > :42:24.in the polls here at the moment. I think that's going to be a process
:42:25. > :42:27.that's going to have to work itself out with voices arguing
:42:28. > :42:29.for things that point I think it's not enough to simply be
:42:30. > :42:35.a voice of opposition if you have no strategy to be
:42:36. > :42:43.viable or electable again. And ultimately that
:42:44. > :43:00.will be rewarded. I think the plan is for us to upload
:43:01. > :43:01.and an edited version of that interview to our YouTube channel
:43:02. > :43:03.tomorrow. But to finish tonight,
:43:04. > :43:09.we thought we should return Westminster Bridge is no
:43:10. > :43:12.ordinary Thames crossing - it is a destination
:43:13. > :43:14.as well as a transit point. It has wide pavements and a lively
:43:15. > :43:17.atmosphere, and lovely views. You'll bump into tourists there -
:43:18. > :43:19.literally, and a lot No-one should let hate-mongers
:43:20. > :43:22.appropriate its symbolism. So Tom Hollander has come
:43:23. > :43:35.in to help us reclaim it. Composed upon Westminster Bridge by
:43:36. > :43:42.William Wordsworth. Earth has not anything
:43:43. > :43:45.to show more fair: Dull would he be of
:43:46. > :43:47.soul who could pass by A sight so touching in its majesty:
:43:48. > :43:54.This City now doth, like a garment, wear The beauty
:43:55. > :43:58.of the morning; silent, bare, Ships, towers, domes,
:43:59. > :44:04.theatres, and temples lie Open unto the fields,
:44:05. > :44:08.and to the sky; All bright and glittering
:44:09. > :44:12.in the smokeless air. Never did sun more beautifully steep
:44:13. > :44:21.in his first splendour, valley, rock, or hill; Ne'er saw I,
:44:22. > :44:29.never felt, a calm so deep! The river glideth
:44:30. > :44:32.at his own sweet will: The very houses seem
:44:33. > :45:03.asleep; And all that mighty Good evening. The weekend is just
:45:04. > :45:07.around the corner and the weather does not look bad, quite promising
:45:08. > :45:10.for most of the UK with some sunshine in the forecast. In the
:45:11. > :45:11.short