:00:11. > :00:13.What do we now know about what drove Khalid Masood to become the man
:00:14. > :00:16.who murdered four people and injured 50 others in Westminster
:00:17. > :00:28.Does he fit the profile of such an extreme and violent attacker?
:00:29. > :00:37.What is so extraordinary about Khalid Masood? Known as Adrian elms
:00:38. > :00:40.where he grew up in Tunbridge Wells, in the garden of England.
:00:41. > :00:45.Westminster under attack - Who, what or where should be held
:00:46. > :00:49.Also tonight - Did the Government give sweeteners to Nissan to stay
:00:50. > :01:01.We came really close today, but we came up short.
:01:02. > :01:03.A big setback for Donald Trump as his health care bill
:01:04. > :01:06.crashes in Congress - killed by his own party.
:01:07. > :01:12.I think we'll end up with a truly great health
:01:13. > :01:15.care bill in the future, after this mess known
:01:16. > :01:31.Today police issued an appeal for information
:01:32. > :01:34.to anyone who can shed light on whether the Westminster attacker,
:01:35. > :01:36.Khalid Masood, acted alone or was directed by others.
:01:37. > :01:37.Police made two more "significant" arrests,
:01:38. > :01:40.taking the total to 11 - six of whom were released tonight
:01:41. > :01:46.Three vehicles were seized by police after an armed raid
:01:47. > :01:49.Masood, who had used a number of aliases,
:01:50. > :01:52.was believed to have been living in the West Midlands
:01:53. > :01:56.He had previously spent time in West Sussex, East Sussex,
:01:57. > :01:59.London and went to school in Tunbridge Wells, Kent.
:02:00. > :02:01.John Sweeney has been looking more into the man responsible
:02:02. > :02:13.for the deaths of four people and injuring 50 others.
:02:14. > :02:20.Khalid Masood grew up in the garden of England. This is the story of a
:02:21. > :02:26.Home Counties boy, who went on to strike terror in the heart of
:02:27. > :02:31.London. Masood was born Adrian Elms on Christmas Day, 1964. His birth
:02:32. > :02:37.was registered in Dartford, Kent. But he grew up in Tunbridge Wells,
:02:38. > :02:41.where he most often used the surname Ajao, that of his mother's new
:02:42. > :02:48.husband. He went to a secondary modern school
:02:49. > :02:53.in Tunbridge Wells, where he was known as Adrian Ajao, a mixed race
:02:54. > :02:56.people in a primarily white school. He was always laughing, always
:02:57. > :03:03.joking. He was good at sport and played rugby well. Just an
:03:04. > :03:07.unassuming guy. At some point after finishing school, Adrian moved to
:03:08. > :03:13.this village in Sussex. Convicted for criminal damage at the age of
:03:14. > :03:20.18, he stood out. I was under the impression that he was a black man
:03:21. > :03:27.in a white man's pub, you know? And he was going to fight for it. I
:03:28. > :03:31.said, look. I don't care if you are black or white. I am quite happy to
:03:32. > :03:37.have a drink with you. If you want to buy new one now, I'm happy to
:03:38. > :03:42.take it! -- by new one. I cannot even remember if he bought me one or
:03:43. > :03:48.not, he shook my hand. Was he funny and intelligent? Yes. But some
:03:49. > :03:54.people in the village saw a nasty side to Adrian. In 2000, Adrian
:03:55. > :03:58.Elms, that was his name before he changed it to Masood, got into a
:03:59. > :04:05.fight with another local. In the village boozer.
:04:06. > :04:09.The fight turned nasty, the local paper reported there were racial
:04:10. > :04:15.overtones and the other man ended up with a slash on the side of his face
:04:16. > :04:21.needing 20 stitches. Adrian Elms was sent to prison. When you heard the
:04:22. > :04:32.news about the attack in Westminster, what was your reaction?
:04:33. > :04:40.Well, it was put over that it was a terrorist attack. But, having known
:04:41. > :04:49.him and what I found out tonight, he was just a crazy man. Mind you, I
:04:50. > :04:54.don't know how you could recognise him since, but he was not a
:04:55. > :05:00.terrorist here. A drink? He was, yes. From here, to prison to
:05:01. > :05:06.Eastbourne, and there, the first suggestion of an interest in is land
:05:07. > :05:10.-- drinker. A friend at the time has told the BBC that he was using
:05:11. > :05:15.cocaine at the time and also reading the Koran. In 2003 there was a fight
:05:16. > :05:19.outside of this nursing home and in December he was found guilty of
:05:20. > :05:25.possessing a knife. His last conviction aged just shy of 40. He
:05:26. > :05:29.was still Adrian Elms. In November 2005, he first travelled
:05:30. > :05:34.to Saudi Arabia, and used the name Khalid Masood. In all committee
:05:35. > :05:39.spent two years there, teaching English. He toured here, at the
:05:40. > :05:43.Saudi Civil Aviation Authority, in Jenner.
:05:44. > :05:48.-- he taught here. In 2010, Khalid Masood was back in Blighty, in
:05:49. > :05:53.Luton, we believe, teaching English. He had two children at the time he
:05:54. > :05:57.was here, they appeared to be primary school children. He had a
:05:58. > :06:02.people carrier and would load his children into a people carrier with
:06:03. > :06:07.child seats. He was a portly gentleman, and frequently wearing
:06:08. > :06:10.tracksuit bottoms. And also would be wearing slip on moccasins, quite
:06:11. > :06:18.relaxed attire, I would say. Always gardening. By last year, he popped
:06:19. > :06:21.up in London's East End. There had been searches there two.
:06:22. > :06:26.He moved to Birmingham, most recently it seems in Ladywood.
:06:27. > :06:31.Before that, Winson Green. He would help me to jump-start my car. He was
:06:32. > :06:36.nice, a nice family. He would drop his kids at school. Normal stuff.
:06:37. > :06:40.You would never think anything dodgy, of all of their neighbours on
:06:41. > :06:43.the road. Last week, Khalid Masood returned south to the part of the
:06:44. > :06:50.country where Adrian Elms had grown up. He stayed here, in this room. He
:06:51. > :06:54.was joking, smiling and friendly. He was a very friendly person when he
:06:55. > :06:59.came in. Actually, the receptionist said that he was a lovely guest, she
:07:00. > :07:08.liked him. She put comments in the system. But he was a nice guest.
:07:09. > :07:12.Then, the nice guest got into his car and drove to Westminster Bridge.
:07:13. > :07:16.Khalid Masood spent time in three separate prisons
:07:17. > :07:19.There has been a well-documented problem of Islamist radicalisation
:07:20. > :07:26.Last year, Ian Acheson wrote a report for the Government
:07:27. > :07:34.Thank you for joining me this evening. There is a lot we don't
:07:35. > :07:38.know about Khalid Masood. That is very clear but we do know that he
:07:39. > :07:43.spent time in Lewes prison, where you spent a short time as a governor
:07:44. > :07:47.there. And a couple of other prisons, Weiland and Ford, which you
:07:48. > :07:52.visited. Can you give me an idea that when you visited them, how or
:07:53. > :07:55.where you would have been of the problem of radicalisation there?
:07:56. > :08:07.Firstly, it's important to emphasise that we have no idea at this point
:08:08. > :08:09.in time whether his periods of time in custody were relevant at all to
:08:10. > :08:12.what he became, which was a murderous terrorist. Or, whether
:08:13. > :08:15.they had significance. We need to be careful indeed about speculation. I
:08:16. > :08:18.spent time working in the three prisoners he has been in during his
:08:19. > :08:26.time in custody. They are very different, Lewes
:08:27. > :08:29.prison is a Victorian prison, a multifunctional prison with
:08:30. > :08:32.different sentences, local to the community. Wayland prison is a rural
:08:33. > :08:39.prison setting a large area, it is category C and medium security,
:08:40. > :08:45.which is set over a wide area. Ford is a prison which prisoners coming
:08:46. > :08:50.to the end of their sentences, sometimes long sentences, will be in
:08:51. > :08:54.and tested to see if they will survive in open conditions. There
:08:55. > :08:58.might be an obvious answer, where you are more likely to be
:08:59. > :09:02.radicalised, or will there be an experience of being exposed to
:09:03. > :09:05.groups that would be potentially wanting to radicalise you?
:09:06. > :09:11.Certainly, we drew attention in the report that I did for Michael Gove
:09:12. > :09:14.to the fact that while the problem was well understood and contained in
:09:15. > :09:17.the high security prison where the majority of prisoners serving
:09:18. > :09:24.Stenton says for terror offences were kept, we were not at all clear
:09:25. > :09:28.in the category C prisons and open prisons in the country, there was
:09:29. > :09:31.the same level of competence, awareness or intervention to be able
:09:32. > :09:37.to know what the extent of the problem was in those prisons --
:09:38. > :09:41.sentences. Or be able to intervene and address that behaviour. If that
:09:42. > :09:45.is the case, how easy is it to identify a prisoner who could be
:09:46. > :09:50.influenced by someone wanting to radicalise the new person in the
:09:51. > :09:54.prison? The ingredients for radicalisation, which we concluded
:09:55. > :10:00.from our report is a real, present and growing danger in this country,
:10:01. > :10:07.it is very simple. You need a person with charisma who can
:10:08. > :10:10.psychologically control and profit eyes hateful ideology.
:10:11. > :10:15.You need a vulnerable and often highly violent young man, in search
:10:16. > :10:20.of meaning and in prison for a long period of time, who have committed
:10:21. > :10:23.serious crimes, and you need a narrative of grievance. Where you
:10:24. > :10:26.have those three conditions, you will have, in prisons, the ideal
:10:27. > :10:33.environment for growing this phenomenon. So, you have highlighted
:10:34. > :10:38.young, in prison for a long time, sentenced for a long time, it almost
:10:39. > :10:42.contradicts Khalid Masood's history? And if you were to look at Khalid
:10:43. > :10:47.Masood and look at his past, what similarities could you draw, if any,
:10:48. > :10:52.of those who have been radicalised? The problem is, the routes into and
:10:53. > :10:56.out of radicalised behaviour and terrorist intent is extremely
:10:57. > :11:02.complex. There's been a lot of work and research done by the Henry
:11:03. > :11:05.Jackson Society, into the biographies of prisoners convicted
:11:06. > :11:09.of terror offences, and it is difficult to discern a common to
:11:10. > :11:13.dominate or pattern. It is exceptionally difficult,
:11:14. > :11:17.especially with the lone actor terrorists as well, and there is
:11:18. > :11:21.speculation that this man acted alone, but we are not clear yet. The
:11:22. > :11:25.police are actively investigating what support or help or inspiration
:11:26. > :11:29.he may have had. They are particularly difficult to identify.
:11:30. > :11:33.Coming back into prisons, the word I hear from you is "Difficult". The
:11:34. > :11:39.conclusion I have drawn, correct me if I am wrong, but it is impossible
:11:40. > :11:42.to eradicate radicalisation in prisons at this time?
:11:43. > :11:44.There is a huge amount of work in prisons to be done to make them
:11:45. > :11:49.places where extreme as is driven out, I made a number of
:11:50. > :11:53.recommendations, I am pleased to say that the government have accepted
:11:54. > :12:01.those, in order to deal with the problem. They include separating the
:12:02. > :12:03.most psychologically dangerous extremists from their audiences.
:12:04. > :12:07.There is intelligence suggesting there are a small number of people
:12:08. > :12:11.who need separating from people vulnerable to the head for messages,
:12:12. > :12:14.that's one way we can directly interfere with the process of
:12:15. > :12:17.radicalisation, it is an urgent issue and I know the government are
:12:18. > :12:23.tackling it. There are issues about the quality of chaplaincy, the
:12:24. > :12:27.Islamist chaplaincy in prisons, they need addressing, and a fundamental
:12:28. > :12:31.issue about support and training for staff, who told us in great numbers
:12:32. > :12:33.that they were fearful of intervening and promoting British
:12:34. > :12:37.values in prisons because they simply did not have that
:12:38. > :12:39.expectation. There are many issues, thank you
:12:40. > :12:41.very much for joining us. The President who prides himself
:12:42. > :12:43.in being able to drive a hard bargain and always get the deal done
:12:44. > :12:50.has suffered a major setback this evening,
:12:51. > :12:52.despite his determination to repeal and replace Obamacare, his bill has
:12:53. > :12:54.failed to pass through Congress. President Trump ordered
:12:55. > :12:56.that the vote was pulled just moments before it was to take place
:12:57. > :12:59.as support among Republican Our correspondent Laura Bicker
:13:00. > :13:12.is in Washington. Hello, Laura. What does this mean
:13:13. > :13:16.for Trump and the Republicans? When it comes to the Republican party,
:13:17. > :13:21.they look like the party of drama, defeat and disappointment. When it
:13:22. > :13:25.came down to it, after seven years of promising to repeal and replace
:13:26. > :13:30.Obamacare, when it came down to the moment of asking, they just could
:13:31. > :13:37.not do it. They were spared the humiliation of defeat after not
:13:38. > :13:41.calling the vote, but it does look incredibly embarrassing. It is a
:13:42. > :13:44.real setback for the Republicans. The right of the party didn't like
:13:45. > :13:49.the bill, neither did the left. It meant they could not find some
:13:50. > :13:53.consensus and serious questions will be asked about their governing
:13:54. > :13:59.abilities going forward. Will they be able to make real decisions? Real
:14:00. > :14:03.policy decisions. Paul Ryan, House Speaker, dismissed
:14:04. > :14:07.it as a growing pains of his government, but he will have to go
:14:08. > :14:10.away and lick his wounds, wondering how to move forward.
:14:11. > :14:14.President Trump has sold himself as the ultimate deal-maker and when it
:14:15. > :14:16.came to it, coming to his first attempt at legislation come he came
:14:17. > :14:20.up short. Sometimes failure is good? You said
:14:21. > :14:23.there were Douzable -- disagreements that
:14:24. > :14:30.-- at both ends of the party, maybe it is good for him to fail this time
:14:31. > :14:34.around? It is interesting, looking at the states which voted for Donald
:14:35. > :14:38.Trump, thousands within those states would have lost their current health
:14:39. > :14:42.care insurance if this had gone through. It's interesting to watch
:14:43. > :14:48.the popularity of Obamacare, the affordable health care right. During
:14:49. > :14:53.the campaign, under constant attack by Republicans, Donald Trump, and
:14:54. > :14:57.the Democrats to properly defend it, the popularity of Obamacare went
:14:58. > :15:00.really far down. And it meant people thought there were real problems
:15:01. > :15:04.with it, and there are. Some insurance premiums have skyrocketed
:15:05. > :15:08.and for others, they have very little choice when it comes to their
:15:09. > :15:16.health care. But, as the repeal and replace has gone through, as people
:15:17. > :15:19.have been able to look at it and go, what will I lose?
:15:20. > :15:22.Suddenly, Obamacare seems more popular and you are right, it might
:15:23. > :15:25.be better for Donald Trump to have left things as they are.
:15:26. > :15:30.But the Democrats would be the first to admit that something needs to be
:15:31. > :15:34.done. There are problems within this bill. They say it needs nurturing,
:15:35. > :15:38.not neglect. They are calling on their Republican colleagues to come
:15:39. > :15:41.together to go forward, but for now, Obamacare remains in place. It
:15:42. > :15:45.certainly does, Laura, thank you. It's good to talk to you.
:15:46. > :15:47.When Nissan announced that it would continue to build new models
:15:48. > :15:50.and invest in its car plant in Sunderland after the referendum -
:15:51. > :15:52.there were cheers, not only from the Japanese car-maker's
:15:53. > :15:55.employees, but also from British politicians keen to show that the UK
:15:56. > :15:58.Theresa May declared it "fantastic news".
:15:59. > :16:01.So what made Nissan so confident that a post-Brexit Britain would be
:16:02. > :16:04.a productive enough environment to keep manufacturing in?
:16:05. > :16:12.Chris Cook has been digging around and is here with new information.
:16:13. > :16:20.This is an intriguing outcome, it was the time and still is and to
:16:21. > :16:25.find out more, you had to submit a Freedom of Information request? Yes,
:16:26. > :16:32.and they are supposed to take 20 working days to come back, this one
:16:33. > :16:38.has taken six months. Also, we received this this evening at ten
:16:39. > :16:43.past six on evening, which is when you do not want journalists looking
:16:44. > :16:50.at this carefully. Newsnight does not have the same working hours as
:16:51. > :16:52.other news outlets! We ask for a lot, correspondence between Nissan
:16:53. > :16:57.and the government and there is a critical letter between Greg Clark
:16:58. > :17:05.and Nissan sent from the government to Nissan, the smoking gun which we
:17:06. > :17:08.did not get. The release is full of reductions and unfortunately that is
:17:09. > :17:13.one of the things the government has committed to eventually releasing
:17:14. > :17:16.but not for now. Do we know why not? They say because they have committed
:17:17. > :17:21.to releasing this in the future, they do not need to release this
:17:22. > :17:24.right now, there is a future publication schedule, which is a
:17:25. > :17:29.ridiculous excuse but they are sticking with it. There is a smoking
:17:30. > :17:34.gun and were not allowed to see it but we will in the future. We have
:17:35. > :17:39.got stuff today. Among the logistics of setting up meetings and one of
:17:40. > :17:44.the things this shows is how much effort the government was going to
:17:45. > :17:47.see Nissan, Greg Clark went to Japan, there were meetings and
:17:48. > :17:52.conference calls and a meeting between somebody from the business
:17:53. > :17:56.Department and the chair of Nissan on the fringes of the Paris motor
:17:57. > :18:00.show but also a letter that gives good detail about what Nissan are
:18:01. > :18:04.asking for, not what they were talking about in relation to Brexit
:18:05. > :18:10.and trading negotiations, that is redacted but we have something
:18:11. > :18:15.interesting about other things. Any company would want a shopping list
:18:16. > :18:20.in times of uncertainty. This and asked for three things. In
:18:21. > :18:24.mid-October, three things. They wanted tax incentives for people to
:18:25. > :18:29.buy electric cars, they wanted the government to put more money into
:18:30. > :18:33.providing charging points and they wanted a change planning laws and
:18:34. > :18:38.local authorities would have to put in more charging points. That is
:18:39. > :18:42.what they ask for in mid-October and by the end of November, the
:18:43. > :18:46.government had opened a consultation on changing the rules around petrol
:18:47. > :18:52.stations so that they would have to have more charging points, they got
:18:53. > :18:58.a tax incentive for ultralow emission vehicles and the extra
:18:59. > :19:02.money for high-speed charging. I will not save the government
:19:03. > :19:06.definitely did what Nissan asked but it is very striking that all of the
:19:07. > :19:10.specific demands not about Brexit that were in the power of the
:19:11. > :19:13.government to deliver, they ask this in mid-October and had them by the
:19:14. > :19:18.end of November. Should we make clear that what Nissan was asking
:19:19. > :19:24.for, people would not think that was unreasonable? There is not a wild
:19:25. > :19:28.U-turn by the government, it does not show corruption or anything else
:19:29. > :19:32.but it shows that I think it is there to say that the government was
:19:33. > :19:37.clearly listening to Nissan and we should point out that last autumn,
:19:38. > :19:41.Nick Watt was reporting that some of these measures appeared to be just
:19:42. > :19:44.to appease Nissan so there is good reason to think these things are
:19:45. > :19:50.connected. We don't know when we will get that letter? Some point in
:19:51. > :19:53.the future! We will be back talking about that. Thank you.
:19:54. > :19:55.Let's go back to the aftermath of Wednesday's attack in Westminster.
:19:56. > :19:58.The last place that Khalid Masood was believed to have been
:19:59. > :20:00.living was Birmingham - a city that has regularly been
:20:01. > :20:03.Our correspondent David Grossman has been to the city
:20:04. > :20:06.where most of the arrests, so far by police in relation
:20:07. > :20:18.Noon in Birmingham and a pause for thought.
:20:19. > :20:20.In an itinerant life, Khalid Masood had connections to many places,
:20:21. > :20:28.but this is where he most recently called home.
:20:29. > :20:36.Others are now, rightly or wrongly, looking
:20:37. > :20:39.to for explanations for the murder and destruction he caused.
:20:40. > :20:42.Every time there is a terrorist outrage it seems all eyes and quite
:20:43. > :20:44.a few accusing fingers are directed towards Birmingham.
:20:45. > :20:48.And if so, is enough being done to solve it.
:20:49. > :20:49.Do you think Birmingham has a problem?
:20:50. > :20:52.I think there is an issue and that is proven statistically,
:20:53. > :20:56.to see the number of arrests that have been made, the number of plots
:20:57. > :20:58.that have been planned shows that there is an issue,
:20:59. > :21:00.a significant in Birmingham in relation to the rest
:21:01. > :21:04.People have got to stand up to this and say, look,
:21:05. > :21:14.You are not treading on people's toes, it is not about sensitivities,
:21:15. > :21:18.it is about making sure that what is conformed to,
:21:19. > :21:21.the society that we're part of, and were and young people
:21:22. > :21:25.particularly are being groomed towards radicalisation,
:21:26. > :21:28.we have to call that out and call it out properly.
:21:29. > :21:29.At Birmingham Central Mosque, Friday prayers begin
:21:30. > :21:35.with an unequivocal condemnation of the London attack.
:21:36. > :21:38.As evil, the congregation were told, as it was un-Islamic.
:21:39. > :21:41.However, when you ask the Birmingham MP, Khaled Mahmud,
:21:42. > :21:46.who needs to do more to challenge the processes that lead
:21:47. > :21:48.lead to radicalisation, top of his list are the city's
:21:49. > :21:52.You can only challenge them if you happen to
:21:53. > :21:59.And then we're quite happy to challenge them them.
:22:00. > :22:01.Because I think the situation is that these people do these
:22:02. > :22:03.activities by reading the literature from all these websites.
:22:04. > :22:07.And all these electronic gadgets are so freely available.
:22:08. > :22:11.People learn radicalisation from those.
:22:12. > :22:18.Mosques do not teach them to become radicalised.
:22:19. > :22:21.But Muhammad Afzal is not just the chairman of the mosque.
:22:22. > :22:25.He is a long-standing and prominent Labour councillor here.
:22:26. > :22:30.Birmingham is a city where religion and politics mix.
:22:31. > :22:32.According to Labour's opponents, the result is an unhealthy
:22:33. > :22:45.We all know that the way voting works in many communities,
:22:46. > :22:47.you have the block vote, the clan vote, the postal vote
:22:48. > :22:50.and we know that they are 1-party states, if you will,
:22:51. > :22:52.and selections are often made by families and packing
:22:53. > :22:56.So it is difficult to achieve change through the ballot box and often
:22:57. > :22:59.it is not in people's interests to really rock the vote.
:23:00. > :23:02.It leads to disempowerment, it leads to poverty,
:23:03. > :23:06.it leads to people not being able to participate in society and one
:23:07. > :23:08.of those consequences is that it allows radicalisation
:23:09. > :23:19.It is one of two Parliamentary constituencies identified by recent
:23:20. > :23:21.reports as accounting for three quarters of Birmingham's Islamist
:23:22. > :23:24.This group of lads blame social media, definitely
:23:25. > :23:32.What has been going on in London and all these links and everything,
:23:33. > :23:35.we're the first people to speak up about these things and say,
:23:36. > :23:38.we don't agree with what is going on and we are deeply sorry
:23:39. > :23:42.for the people that have been hurt and to their families as well.
:23:43. > :23:44.Answering the question, I don't think...
:23:45. > :23:47.In Sparkbrook, I don't think there is radicalisation
:23:48. > :23:50.but it is easy to say because this area, the majority are Muslim
:23:51. > :23:57.And it is easy to target this area or certain areas and say,
:23:58. > :23:59.these areas are radicalised and so on.
:24:00. > :24:01.We think that this is a tight-knit community
:24:02. > :24:10.Mohammed Ashfak is the director of KIKIT, an organisation that,
:24:11. > :24:21.with public money, tries to turn round vulnerable lives.
:24:22. > :24:22.Radicalisation, they believe, is the same product
:24:23. > :24:26.We stopped two youngsters from going over to Syria that
:24:27. > :24:28.had a range of issues, they were addicted to drugs
:24:29. > :24:42.They actually have their tickets booked, they were going to fly over
:24:43. > :24:45.and they were being groomed by going online and watching videos of Isis.
:24:46. > :24:47.It is safeguarding, that is how we approached it
:24:48. > :24:53.And people who try and radicalise other people, it is a grooming
:24:54. > :24:55.process, the same way you get with child sexual exploitation.
:24:56. > :24:58.Just the same way as you get with any other grooming process.
:24:59. > :25:02.At the Birmingham Bullring there was another vigil today.
:25:03. > :25:05.Very different from the one outside the Town Hall earlier.
:25:06. > :25:07.This has been organised by a group called Stand Up To Racism
:25:08. > :25:10.and the concern here is that the crimes of a few are
:25:11. > :25:14.The fact that awful things happen does not mean that
:25:15. > :25:20.And I think the onus should be on how do we come together, how do
:25:21. > :25:25.But at the same time, how do we do so in a manner that
:25:26. > :25:27.doesn't give more oxygen to the very people who celebrate
:25:28. > :25:34.And I would say those people are two kinds.
:25:35. > :25:37.People like Isis, who want to betray an image that they are
:25:38. > :25:41.And also the far right groups, who then exploit the tensions that
:25:42. > :25:45.That is what we should be looking at, taking that
:25:46. > :25:47.step back and thinking, is this a helpful way to respond?
:25:48. > :25:50.How do we frame the problem and get to the roots
:25:51. > :26:05.Although another terrorist attack linked to Birmingham causes
:26:06. > :26:08.discomfort here, in a sense it makes agreement easier.
:26:09. > :26:09.Everyone condemns and everyone extends sympathy.
:26:10. > :26:11.What is far harder to find, though, is a consensus
:26:12. > :26:21.Let's discuss the root causes of these problems -
:26:22. > :26:23.I'm joined by David Goodhart, author of the Road to Somewhere
:26:24. > :26:30.and Miqdaad Versi from the Muslim Council of Britain.
:26:31. > :26:35.Do you recognise the picture in that report? Integration and
:26:36. > :26:41.multiculturalism failing in places like that? I do recognise that
:26:42. > :26:46.picture and I think the terrorist attack in Westminster was from a man
:26:47. > :26:53.who was alone will, unbalanced, but we clearly have a problem with
:26:54. > :26:58.Islamic extremism in Britain, 3000 people under constant surveillance
:26:59. > :27:03.and even if you take the 3% in certain opinion polls who support
:27:04. > :27:10.violent extremism, that are still 100,000 British Muslims, a worrying
:27:11. > :27:15.figure. Muslims tend to live somewhat more segregated than other
:27:16. > :27:19.minorities. Is that fair? It is worth challenging one of those
:27:20. > :27:25.points, 3% of Muslims sympathise with terrorism, the previous ICN
:27:26. > :27:31.poll showed that 4% of the general population sympathise with
:27:32. > :27:35.terrorism. Lots of opinion polls said 7% or 8% of the Muslim
:27:36. > :27:42.community. The point is, the way we ask the question presents a certain
:27:43. > :27:45.answer and a 4% of the population have sympathy with terrorism, that
:27:46. > :27:49.would be hundreds of thousands of people so let us move away from the
:27:50. > :27:58.idea that Muslims sympathise with terrorism. A very small number. This
:27:59. > :28:01.is not scaremongering. How can we prevent these kids, most of them are
:28:02. > :28:10.kids were young men, getting diverted on their life track into
:28:11. > :28:14.this new identity, this disaffected identity that seems to be attractive
:28:15. > :28:18.to them. This is a problem for liberal societies, to provide
:28:19. > :28:24.attractive national identities for all of our kids. All of our kids
:28:25. > :28:27.should belong to Britain and feel that Britain belongs to them and it
:28:28. > :28:32.seems to be quite difficult in our kind of society to provide those
:28:33. > :28:40.identities. You said that young people, Khalid Masood was 52? A
:28:41. > :28:48.disproportionate number are under 35. We firstly have to distinguish
:28:49. > :28:52.between the idea of segregation and extremism, the idea that one leads
:28:53. > :28:56.to another is not a simple process that is clear, people who are
:28:57. > :29:00.segregated are more like to be extremists. I don't think there is
:29:01. > :29:06.evidence. I would agree, extremists come from everywhere, all levels of
:29:07. > :29:12.education, people who have been to Cambridge. Segregation is not the
:29:13. > :29:17.problem? It is a problem in itself and it is a separate problem, it may
:29:18. > :29:23.have some relation to extremism in some cases but the fact that Muslims
:29:24. > :29:26.live more separately from the rest of society than other minorities is
:29:27. > :29:30.an issue that we should continue to talk about and do something about.
:29:31. > :29:35.Birmingham is a very segregated city but it goes back several decades
:29:36. > :29:38.when many of the white people moved to North fields and different
:29:39. > :29:43.minorities became concentrated in particular areas and we can learn
:29:44. > :29:47.from the mistakes of the past and allowing that to happen, to lean
:29:48. > :29:53.against those clustering tendencies. It is worth noting that Muslims have
:29:54. > :29:56.become less segregated in the last ten years and many reports sure
:29:57. > :30:01.we're doing a lot of positive things. We sometimes do not
:30:02. > :30:07.celebrate our diversity. If you look that great role models, the Mayor of
:30:08. > :30:12.London, Nadiya Hussain. Is that the way to improve the situation? To
:30:13. > :30:17.make sure that perhaps if you are a strong faith, you are not seen as
:30:18. > :30:21.someone outside the group willing to integrate? And make it clear that
:30:22. > :30:24.young Muslims have very good opportunities in this country, many
:30:25. > :30:29.Muslims are concentrated in the bottom part of the income spectrum
:30:30. > :30:34.but lots of Muslims are not and even some of the Muslim groups like
:30:35. > :30:38.Bangladeshis who have historically not done so well educationally or in
:30:39. > :30:44.the economy and they are starting to do a lot better. As many Bangladeshi
:30:45. > :30:49.youths go to Russell group universities as white British kids
:30:50. > :30:53.and that is quite an achievement. What is to be done when we look at
:30:54. > :30:57.Birmingham and say there is a problem and we can see sources of
:30:58. > :31:01.extremism and councillors admit there is a problem. What is the
:31:02. > :31:07.solution? We need to identify exactly what the problem is and do
:31:08. > :31:11.different things, in Birmingham we have Sparkbrook or different cases
:31:12. > :31:15.where there are significant numbers of arrests of people who have been
:31:16. > :31:19.accused of terrorism but if you remove one of those rates, resulting
:31:20. > :31:24.in 14 people arrested, the percentage is similar to the rest of
:31:25. > :31:27.the country so we have to be careful but -- careful about looking at
:31:28. > :31:30.figures and when it comes to Birmingham, the people on the
:31:31. > :31:34.ground, the grassroots community, they are the people we need to look
:31:35. > :31:39.at to search for the right brain. There is very little that can be
:31:40. > :31:46.done about somebody with a knife who comes into Parliament. -- the right
:31:47. > :31:49.way. The opinion poll a few months ago showed that most Muslims have
:31:50. > :31:53.the same political worries as the rest of the population, there is not
:31:54. > :31:57.a huge gap but we have quite large parts of the Muslim leadership in
:31:58. > :32:02.this country who do paint a very negative picture of the country,
:32:03. > :32:06.particularly those from an Islamist background, and we want the Muslim
:32:07. > :32:10.leadership to be more positive about Britain in some ways and help
:32:11. > :32:18.provide those images and ideas. Great to talk to both of you. Thank
:32:19. > :32:21.you very much for your time. That's all we have time for. Have a lovely