:00:07. > :00:08.Tonight on Newsnight - the former head of the Diplomatic
:00:09. > :00:20.It's certain we won't have resolved everything in the period before
:00:21. > :00:24.in the period before the expiry of the Article 50 process.
:00:25. > :00:26.48 hours from now Article 50 will be triggered.
:00:27. > :00:30.Two years after that, we'll be out of the EU picture.
:00:31. > :00:34.I've been told that, on the contrary, Theresa May said
:00:35. > :00:36.to Nicola Sturgeon that the whole Brexit negotiation would be done
:00:37. > :00:51.Peter was most read fully frightened. He rushed all over the
:00:52. > :00:53.garden looking for the Brexit. He ran straight into a messy tangle of
:00:54. > :00:56.red tape. Will British farmers thrive
:00:57. > :00:58.or die without Brussels As a fell farmer I can't
:00:59. > :01:02.survive without subsidy. Are you African-American? I don't
:01:03. > :01:27.understand the question. turned out to be white -
:01:28. > :01:31.we have the UK television Racism is a lie, so how can you like
:01:32. > :01:42.about a lie? Two days before Article 50
:01:43. > :01:47.is finally triggered, Newsnight has been given
:01:48. > :01:50.an exclusive insight into how the negotiations
:01:51. > :01:52.with the EU will be conducted, by the former head of the Diplomatic
:01:53. > :01:54.Service. Sir Simon Fraser -
:01:55. > :01:56.who had key posts in both the European Commission
:01:57. > :01:59.and the Foreign Office has told this programme that EU member countires
:02:00. > :02:01.have so far been discplined and prevented from making
:02:02. > :02:03.any meaningful pre He also confirmed it would NOT be
:02:04. > :02:08.possible to agree all of the issues during the two year negotiation
:02:09. > :02:10.period, and he foresaw the distinc possibility of political
:02:11. > :02:13.and economic turbulence. We'll hear his interview with our
:02:14. > :02:15.Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban in full in a moment -
:02:16. > :02:34.but first to our political editor What are you hearing tonight? SNP
:02:35. > :02:38.sources said that Theresa May told Nicola Sturgeon that the UK
:02:39. > :02:42.Government is confident they can do an overall deal within 18 months. So
:02:43. > :02:46.it means the future trading relationship. Number Ten doesn't
:02:47. > :02:50.believe the future trading relationship can be done and dusted
:02:51. > :02:57.them, it will need what it described as an implementation phase. But it
:02:58. > :03:02.shows that the UK is accepting the timetable by the EU, which is a
:03:03. > :03:07.Greek it by the autumn of 2018 so it can be fully ratified. But the EU
:03:08. > :03:12.chief negotiator is saying, if you want to have that trade deal done at
:03:13. > :03:18.the same time, even in that sort of a transitional outline, you have got
:03:19. > :03:22.to get over two big hurdles, a greedy exit payment and secondly
:03:23. > :03:27.agreed the status of EU nationals. What a word is there on those EU
:03:28. > :03:31.payments? David Davis on question Time said the UK will not pay
:03:32. > :03:38.anything like the 60 billion euros that is mentioned in Brussels, but
:03:39. > :03:43.he did say, that the UK will meet its international obligations. That
:03:44. > :03:47.is a big thing the EU has been saying, it means the UK will be
:03:48. > :03:54.obliged to abide by its EU budget commitments that have been agreed by
:03:55. > :03:59.all member states and the Twenty20, which means a third of the budget.
:04:00. > :04:04.But David Davis also cited a recent House of Lords report and it said if
:04:05. > :04:08.the UK leaves the EU without a deal, it will not, by law have to pay a
:04:09. > :04:11.penny. He regards that as a great car to have in his back pocket.
:04:12. > :04:13.Thank you very much. Our diplomatic editor
:04:14. > :04:15.Mark Urban has been speaking to Sir Simon Fraser who until 2015
:04:16. > :04:18.was the Foreign Office's He began by asking how successful
:04:19. > :04:23.European leaders have been in holding the EU's 27 member states
:04:24. > :04:37.to the same negotiating position. I think there has been a lot of
:04:38. > :04:48.discipline. It came out of the commission first of all.
:04:49. > :04:50.I don't think there has been a lot of informal
:04:51. > :04:51.behind-the-scenes discussion of
:04:52. > :04:54.That will happen once we formally triggered
:04:55. > :04:59.How likely is it will get towards the end of that 18 month
:05:00. > :05:01.period that the EU has set for reaching the initial
:05:02. > :05:03.agreement with things resolved on some key issues?
:05:04. > :05:13.I think personally it's certain we won't have resolved everything
:05:14. > :05:15.in the period before the expiry of the Article 50 process.
:05:16. > :05:18.As we know, the EU side want to start with negotiating
:05:19. > :05:21.That's about money, it's about the rights of people living
:05:22. > :05:27.It's probably also about the Borders, for example, in Ireland.
:05:28. > :05:30.And the British side, on top of that, wants to move
:05:31. > :05:35.rapidly to discuss the future relationship with both political
:05:36. > :05:38.and economic between Britain and the EU and that is a very
:05:39. > :05:45.There's no way, in my view, we are going to complete
:05:46. > :05:48.all that in two years, which is why we are going to have
:05:49. > :05:50.to think about transitional mechanisms, or what the British side
:05:51. > :05:55.calls progressive implementation of new arrangements.
:05:56. > :05:58.You've mentioned unity, so will the UK, do you think in that
:05:59. > :06:02.period, be trying talk to the Poles or the Czechs, or whoever in order
:06:03. > :06:06.to maybe offer them money for infrastructural things that make
:06:07. > :06:09.deals with them on a bilateral basis, or try to change their
:06:10. > :06:15.Can that work, or will the unity of the 27 remain
:06:16. > :06:26.I think they will try to maintain that unity,
:06:27. > :06:30.The British will of course talk to the different
:06:31. > :06:33.member states in the EU and try to understand their position
:06:34. > :06:35.and work on those positions and try to find ways of reaching
:06:36. > :06:38.agreement and possibly, you know, catering for the interests
:06:39. > :06:43.That's normal, but in the end, the UK has got to negotiate
:06:44. > :06:46.with the EU as a whole through the EU's appointed
:06:47. > :06:52.negotiator which will be essentially led by the commission.
:06:53. > :06:55.And I think it will be a mistake to try and divide and rule
:06:56. > :06:57.because I don't think that will work.
:06:58. > :07:01.What are the chances of the UK ending up coming towards the end
:07:02. > :07:09.of the Article 50 period without agreement in many areas,
:07:10. > :07:12.as you've predicted and there being economic turbulence,
:07:13. > :07:16.political turbulence, a very difficult end to this process?
:07:17. > :07:19.What I don't think is possible to do in that time is go
:07:20. > :07:22.through the whole negotiation for the future relationship.
:07:23. > :07:25.So there is a risk, nevertheless, that this breaks down or we get
:07:26. > :07:27.to an unsatisfactory outcome and there is political ill
:07:28. > :07:34.will and turbulence, both political and economic.
:07:35. > :07:38.I think it's in the interests of both sides to try to avoid that
:07:39. > :07:41.and if we have unfinished business, to find agreement on a mechanism,
:07:42. > :07:44.a smooth mechanism for moving forward through transition,
:07:45. > :07:50.so that the unfinished stuff can continue to be negotiated thereafter
:07:51. > :07:57.so the economic relations and political relationship can continue.
:07:58. > :08:01.Two years ago a black human rights activist, Rachel Dolezal,
:08:02. > :08:03.was outed as a white woman, born to white parents
:08:04. > :08:10.A huge scandal erupted - why had this woman been trying to pass
:08:11. > :08:15.She was pilloried by white and black communities simultaneously,
:08:16. > :08:18.accused of cultural appropriation by some and of delusional
:08:19. > :08:24.She maintains she never meant to hurt anyone,
:08:25. > :08:27.she genuinely felt culturally and socially black and changed her
:08:28. > :08:31.looks in subtle ways until others assumed she was.
:08:32. > :08:34.In her long awaited book, In Full Colour, she rejects
:08:35. > :08:37.the concept of race, calling it a political construct and says
:08:38. > :08:43.We'll hear the exclusive broadcast interview she gave to me
:08:44. > :08:54.This is Rachel Dolezal as a child, pale hair, fair skin, born to deeply
:08:55. > :08:57.religious, authoritarian parents in rural Montana.
:08:58. > :08:59.In her book, she describes a miserable childhood,
:09:00. > :09:08.Once, she explains, she was even forced to eat her own cold vomit.
:09:09. > :09:11.When she was an adolescent, her parents began adopting black babies,
:09:12. > :09:14.four in all, which she looked after and adored.
:09:15. > :09:17.As soon as she could, she headed to college in the deep
:09:18. > :09:22.South, lived in a mixed community and began
:09:23. > :09:24.to think of herself as black, modifying her
:09:25. > :09:29.She worked for civil rights, gaining prestigious posts in
:09:30. > :09:32.She had stopped trying to explain her race,
:09:33. > :09:40.Then, one day, as local head of the NAACP, America's largest
:09:41. > :09:45.giving an interview on their work when she was asked a question out of
:09:46. > :09:57.Her life was then to change beyond recognition.
:09:58. > :10:02.Treated as a pariah, vilified by both black and
:10:03. > :10:06.white communities, she found herself fired from her job, unable to find
:10:07. > :10:10.work, raising her children as a single parent on the bread line.
:10:11. > :10:15.She felt black and to have said differently would have been to lie
:10:16. > :10:21.A confused woman, product of a terrible infancy,
:10:22. > :10:24.perhaps, literally desperate to escape her own skin?
:10:25. > :10:27.Or the start of a bigger conversation about whether
:10:28. > :10:35.people really can self define their own race?
:10:36. > :10:40.I caught up with her in her home in Spokane, Washington state.
:10:41. > :10:44.In terms of your own story, you write, "As soon as I was able to
:10:45. > :10:47.make my exodus from the white world in which I was raised, I made a
:10:48. > :10:51.headlong dash towards the black one", so it was a choice for you to
:10:52. > :10:55.leave that white world and head to the black world?
:10:56. > :11:01.Yeah, I definitely did not feel at home in
:11:02. > :11:11.It felt foreign to me, and it felt uncomfortable
:11:12. > :11:17.And it also felt oppressive, because I had to constantly mask and
:11:18. > :11:20.subordinate and repress parts of myself in order to just, kind of,
:11:21. > :11:27.You describe a pretty horrific childhood, one of
:11:28. > :11:32.punishment and negligence and very little love?
:11:33. > :11:38.Oftentimes, when I was being punished, I was left wondering what
:11:39. > :11:45.I had really done to deserve that punishment because I felt like I had
:11:46. > :11:49.just been being myself, you know, I had just been creative or
:11:50. > :11:54.spontaneous or just dancing for doing something that I hadn't
:11:55. > :11:56.spontaneous or just dancing or doing something that I hadn't
:11:57. > :11:59.potentially been doing something wrong or evil or terrible.
:12:00. > :12:08.It was just that I had stepped out of line.
:12:09. > :12:22.I hadn't, you know, done what a girl should do.
:12:23. > :12:23.And somehow, been immodest or sensual
:12:24. > :12:27.And I had to be punished for that because I was
:12:28. > :12:30.being raised to believe that the only goal for me in life
:12:31. > :12:33.was to get married and bear children and be a
:12:34. > :12:36.And as soon as you were able, you looked for a
:12:37. > :12:38.college, that headlong dash towards the black world?
:12:39. > :12:40.Was it then that your appearance started to change?
:12:41. > :12:47.Did you become more aware of wanting to become more black physically?
:12:48. > :12:54.Well, when I was in college, I was constantly comes you know,
:12:55. > :12:57.Well, when I was in college, I was constantly, you know,
:12:58. > :13:05.kind of trying to explain and defend who I was because a lot of people
:13:06. > :13:08.saw me as either mixed or albino or white skinned black.
:13:09. > :13:21.Whether or not I had braids, like, regardless of my
:13:22. > :13:25.hairstyle, because I was in a black student union
:13:26. > :13:31.and social justice which was not typical for white southerners to do.
:13:32. > :13:33.So I was kind of glaringly not fitting the mould
:13:34. > :13:38.And if somebody saw me and assumed I was black or mixed or
:13:39. > :13:41.white skinned, it was more comfortable because it was a box
:13:42. > :13:44.When you started ticking the box that said
:13:45. > :13:48.black eventually, did you feel uncomfortable,
:13:49. > :13:58.No, I mean, it didn't feel like a lie,
:13:59. > :14:04.A true representation of who I am and what I stand for, because
:14:05. > :14:07.even though race is a social construct, and in America, there is
:14:08. > :14:11.a very clear colour line, there is a clear divide
:14:12. > :14:15.and you have to take a side, I mean, I stand on the black
:14:16. > :14:18.side of issues, philosophically, politically, socially, and for me to
:14:19. > :14:24.not check the box, I felt like would be some sort of a betrayal.
:14:25. > :14:27.Of not only of who I am but the community I
:14:28. > :14:30.A lot of people might say, "I sympathise with
:14:31. > :14:32.everything the black movement stand for.
:14:33. > :14:42.In that case, people would be agreeing with
:14:43. > :14:47.The idea of race is a lie so how can you lie about a lie?
:14:48. > :14:51.The criticism that claim was that you were trying
:14:52. > :14:55.to culturally appropriate a black experience that you could not have
:14:56. > :14:58.had because you never lived through it.
:14:59. > :15:03.What is your response to that criticism?
:15:04. > :15:09.I understand that, given what was presented, I understand how
:15:10. > :15:13.people can come up with those conclusions.
:15:14. > :15:16.But I do feel like just because I didn't have a lived
:15:17. > :15:19.experience, being seen by other people as a black girl, a black
:15:20. > :15:31.young woman, for years of my life, I was seen as a white woman, as a
:15:32. > :15:34.white girl, that doesn't mean that I didn't have any experiences.
:15:35. > :15:36.I couldn't self define as Chinese just
:15:37. > :15:41.because I had a passion for Chinese culture.
:15:42. > :15:48.Well, I think to some extent, that's right because we
:15:49. > :15:51.don't have a choice in how we are born and who we are.
:15:52. > :15:54.And so, to embrace and fully open who we really
:15:55. > :15:58.are, I think is something that we encourage
:15:59. > :16:00.from children's movies, to the most inspirational books,
:16:01. > :16:04.I think that we tell everybody, "Be who you are, be proud
:16:05. > :16:16.be proud of who you are", and this is truly who I am.
:16:17. > :16:20.But do you think you had a choice? Did you have a choice to be black?
:16:21. > :16:24.I was born as who I am and that includes how I feel and also what I
:16:25. > :16:28.And so I don't think I have a choice in that.
:16:29. > :16:30.You have drawn parallels with the transgender
:16:31. > :16:36.community, that you should be able to self define racially, in the way
:16:37. > :16:41.that many trans people self define agenda.
:16:42. > :16:43.that many trans people self define their gender.
:16:44. > :16:53.Many other people have drawn those parallels, too.
:16:54. > :16:55.I kind of have seen it as somewhat useful, just because
:16:56. > :16:57.gender is understood, we have progressed, we have evolved
:16:58. > :17:03.into understanding that gender is not
:17:04. > :17:08.So you believe in the concept of transracial?
:17:09. > :17:11.Well, I believe that the word transracial has become
:17:12. > :17:17.socially useful in describing racial fluidity in identity.
:17:18. > :17:20.Do you think, though, that the world will come
:17:21. > :17:29.Or do you think you will always be viewed
:17:30. > :17:31.as the pariah, the white woman who wanted to be black?
:17:32. > :17:40.I don't think that is for me to hope for or predict.
:17:41. > :17:42.I really don't know where we are headed.
:17:43. > :17:49.Describe for us now what life is like, day-to-day?
:17:50. > :17:52.You can't get a job. You don't have money.
:17:53. > :17:54.Was that all as a result of this? Yeah, definitely.
:17:55. > :18:00.It was as a result of me being discredited,
:18:01. > :18:03.basically, called a liar and a fraud and a con and people
:18:04. > :18:06.not trusting my work, not
:18:07. > :18:09.just my identity but everything that I did, including my resume
:18:10. > :18:13.Where was the worst criticism for you?
:18:14. > :18:22.I would say that the biggest attack was from, of course,
:18:23. > :18:27.the parents and the white media and the white police, the white
:18:28. > :18:29.establishment at large really dealt the biggest blow, but the criticism
:18:30. > :18:33.that hurt the worst was from the black community
:18:34. > :18:47.because I still feel like that is home, for me.
:18:48. > :18:50.And even if I had been evicted, pushed to the fringe,
:18:51. > :18:53.some people don't see me as part of that group, it is still
:18:54. > :18:56.where I feel like I fit and where I feel at home.
:18:57. > :18:59.So that hurts, it is painful because I feel like there is
:19:00. > :19:01.misunderstanding that I want to resolve.
:19:02. > :19:03.If I could resolve one group's misunderstanding, it would
:19:04. > :19:07.Rachel Dolezal, thank you. Thank you.
:19:08. > :19:11.With me in the studio is Guilaine Kinouani
:19:12. > :19:20.who is an equality consultant and writer, and Boyce Watkins,
:19:21. > :19:28.You listen to that interview, what did you make of her? Firstly, just
:19:29. > :19:35.to say it is the first time I have seen this interview, so lots of
:19:36. > :19:46.emotions, feelings and questions. But perhaps the first thing to
:19:47. > :19:53.establish is that what is called trans-racialism by Rachel Dunn zeal
:19:54. > :19:58.encompasses three different groups, black women, trans women, and people
:19:59. > :20:01.who find themselves at the intersection of the two, so I am
:20:02. > :20:06.going to speak to it mainly as a black woman. There are various
:20:07. > :20:15.problems with Rachel Dolezal's position. Comparing transgender
:20:16. > :20:19.rhythm with transracial is -- transgender with transracial is a
:20:20. > :20:23.fallacy, a force equivalency, which in my mind, does not advance our
:20:24. > :20:30.understanding of race, of transgender issues, nor of black
:20:31. > :20:35.womanhood. Stepping back for one moment from the transgender
:20:36. > :20:39.relationship that she made with her own position, can you sympathise or
:20:40. > :20:44.empathise with a woman who says she feels she has more in common, she
:20:45. > :20:51.feels she is closer to being black than white? I can absolutely
:20:52. > :20:54.empathise with her experience, particularly when it seems apparent
:20:55. > :20:59.that she comes from a background of abuse and neglect and perhaps she
:21:00. > :21:04.has come to associate whiteness with what might have happened in her
:21:05. > :21:08.past, so I can empathise with that. However, where I remain sceptical is
:21:09. > :21:16.in her inability to recognise and a knowledge her privilege as a white
:21:17. > :21:19.woman being able to occupy or inhabit the lived experience of
:21:20. > :21:24.black women. But even though, as you have just said, she did not have a
:21:25. > :21:27.life of privilege, she was, you know, as she describes, abused,
:21:28. > :21:33.punished and brought up in an authoritarian place, ostracised from
:21:34. > :21:36.a white community, for wanting to be black as much as from a black
:21:37. > :21:41.community who discovered she was white so why do you attach the idea
:21:42. > :21:45.of privilege to her background? I attach the idea of privilege to have
:21:46. > :21:51.a background for one main reason. The main reason is that she has
:21:52. > :21:57.white skin. So while it is physical for her to don a little tan and
:21:58. > :21:59.where some braids and pass as black, the reality is that for the
:22:00. > :22:05.overwhelming majority of black people, we cannot occupy the lived
:22:06. > :22:12.experience of white people. So the question to me I guess would be,
:22:13. > :22:17.would a dark skinned Pakistani woman wearing a hijab claiming whiteness,
:22:18. > :22:21.would that be a choice that society would accept? And I think a lot of
:22:22. > :22:26.people share that perspective but when you say pass as, obviously you
:22:27. > :22:30.describe it as if it is something she is trying to sort of pull the
:22:31. > :22:33.wool over people's eyes. What she said in the interview and to me was
:22:34. > :22:40.that she does not really believe in the idea of race. She thinks it is a
:22:41. > :22:48.political construct... It is. Race was always set up to be a hierarchy
:22:49. > :22:51.of power. Perhaps if you look at it from that perspective, then she is
:22:52. > :22:54.right, isn't she? Who is to say that race has to be binary? I think this
:22:55. > :23:00.is an interesting question and my position on this is that talking
:23:01. > :23:05.about racism and talking about white supremacy, we need to look at what
:23:06. > :23:10.has been done and reproduced over centuries. So we are talking about
:23:11. > :23:16.white woman who seems to be quite oblivious to the fact that black
:23:17. > :23:22.women's experience and bodies and creation has been appropriated, has
:23:23. > :23:26.been... Even though she worked in black actors, even though she made
:23:27. > :23:30.it her lives and works? Absolutely because there is a hierarchy of
:23:31. > :23:33.blackness, so for example, her claiming blackness would shift
:23:34. > :23:36.people's understanding, firstly of what it means to be black and
:23:37. > :23:40.because of the privilege that she has been a white woman, what we
:23:41. > :23:46.would have is that she would have the power of defining what blackness
:23:47. > :23:51.is. We are coming to the end but let me ask you, she has been made a
:23:52. > :23:57.pariah, ostracised, unable to get a job. Do you think she has become
:23:58. > :24:01.something of a target? There are many people that you good a more
:24:02. > :24:05.anger at than a woman who, as you say, and quite a traumatic childhood
:24:06. > :24:10.and found herself, perhaps, on the wrong side of a confused argument.
:24:11. > :24:17.Does she really deserved to be treated in quite such a, sort of,
:24:18. > :24:20.vilified terms as she is today? I'm not sure whether I would agree with
:24:21. > :24:25.the premise that she has been vilified. Certainly, she has been
:24:26. > :24:30.called to account. What I would say is that she has also had a book
:24:31. > :24:37.deal, so therefore, she has got some material gain from her experience.
:24:38. > :24:41.From that perspective, I'm not sure whether it is fair to say she is a
:24:42. > :24:44.pariah. She is someone who has had a book deal and has made a loss of
:24:45. > :24:46.money out of her experience. Thank you for joining us.
:24:47. > :24:49.The Russian government has rejected calls by the European Union
:24:50. > :24:52.and the United States to release hundreds of people who have been
:24:53. > :24:58.detained following Sunday's anti-government protests.
:24:59. > :25:00.The nationwide demonstrations were the biggest show of defiance
:25:01. > :25:02.since anti-government protests five years ago.
:25:03. > :25:06.The man who represents Russia's most vocal opposition to Putin's
:25:07. > :25:10.government is Alexei Navalny, and today he was jailed for 15 days
:25:11. > :25:14.for resisting police orders, a punishment that will come
:25:15. > :25:17.as little surprise to a man who has endured a year of house arrests
:25:18. > :25:23.Joining me now, Edward Lucas, author of The New Cold War: Putin's Russia
:25:24. > :25:35.Thank you for joining us. How important do these protests,
:25:36. > :25:41.firstly, look to you? Is this a significant moment, a turning point?
:25:42. > :25:44.I think they are commendable. I think Alexei Navalny and his young
:25:45. > :25:47.supporters, many of whom have known no other Russian leader than
:25:48. > :25:52.Vladimir Putin, deserve whatever support we can give them but I have
:25:53. > :25:57.to say, I don't think at the moment they have the momentum that would be
:25:58. > :26:01.needed to split the regime or topple it. Because of him? Does he seem to
:26:02. > :26:05.you the right revolutionary figure, if such a one exists? I've met in a
:26:06. > :26:08.couple of times and he's a very oppressive and forceful character. I
:26:09. > :26:12.think he is not a great unifier although he has a strong fan base
:26:13. > :26:16.but there are other people in the Russian opposition, particularly the
:26:17. > :26:19.liberal wing, who worry that he is too nationalist. They also worry
:26:20. > :26:22.that maybe he has got some connections somewhere with the
:26:23. > :26:26.regime that he has been tolerated, to some extent, allowed to get away
:26:27. > :26:30.with things where other people have been closed down and yet now he is
:26:31. > :26:34.being closed down and he himself is imprisoned. I think there's a chance
:26:35. > :26:37.that this escalate and ripples across Russia and turns into
:26:38. > :26:41.something really big but we saw this movie five years ago with much
:26:42. > :26:44.bigger protests in Moscow and the regime could squash those, and I
:26:45. > :26:49.think they probably can do the same this time around. But he's been very
:26:50. > :26:53.clever at redirecting this away from Putin personally and making it all
:26:54. > :26:57.about corruption, bringing out the stamps on the notes and stuff, to
:26:58. > :27:04.really sell a message that can have traction with the masses? Yes, and I
:27:05. > :27:07.think that corruption is the regime's Achilles heel. If you go on
:27:08. > :27:11.about democracy and human rights and freedom and so on, many Russians
:27:12. > :27:16.look back to the 1990s and think, "We tied it at -- tried it and it
:27:17. > :27:18.did not work", where is this gross corruption which involves hundreds
:27:19. > :27:23.of thousands of acres of ground gunner ski slopes and duck ponds and
:27:24. > :27:28.things, that really grates... It is always the duck pond that tips the
:27:29. > :27:32.balance. Yes, steer clear of the docks, rulers but it is a good point
:27:33. > :27:36.and by going for Medvedev, who is pretty unpopular, it is a good
:27:37. > :27:39.tactical move and it is not impossible that Mr Putin would throw
:27:40. > :27:44.his hapless Prime Minister overboard sometime this year. Said he is no
:27:45. > :27:48.use any more, is that the sense you get? Medvedev was quite useful for
:27:49. > :27:55.Putin of years ago when he wanted to step down as president briefly and
:27:56. > :27:58.Medvedev, his sidekick, kept his seat in the Kremlin warm but he does
:27:59. > :28:01.not really like Mr Medvedev and I think he would not feel any
:28:02. > :28:06.compunction in serving him overboard and possibly saying he was shocked
:28:07. > :28:10.to find there had been corruption going on and that would blunt the
:28:11. > :28:15.edge of public anger, if these protests continue, or it may just
:28:16. > :28:21.fizzle out. You can see the West squirming at these reactions now,
:28:22. > :28:26.the protests, how far to get involved, what they can say, do they
:28:27. > :28:31.show support? The West does not really have any power at all here,
:28:32. > :28:34.does it? I think the West is one of the guilty parties here and this is
:28:35. > :28:37.one of the things Alexei Navalny said to him when I asked if he was
:28:38. > :28:40.Andy West, and he said of course because it is in the west that the
:28:41. > :28:45.regime launders the money it has stolen from the Russian people. I
:28:46. > :28:50.think the Scottish paper today has a splash on the front page saying that
:28:51. > :28:55.Scottish banks laundered ?4 billion of dirty Russian money. So we do
:28:56. > :28:59.sanctions but on the other hand...? We do sanctions which is good and I
:29:00. > :29:03.wish we did more but until we crack down on the bankers and lawyers and
:29:04. > :29:06.accountants who laundered tens of billions of dollars and cover-up the
:29:07. > :29:09.beneficial ownership of companies and so on, they won't take us
:29:10. > :29:13.seriously. There is a bill going through Parliament right now which
:29:14. > :29:18.would give the government the ability to freeze the assets of
:29:19. > :29:21.human rights abuses, so that is a glimmer of hope but we need to do a
:29:22. > :29:24.great deal more. Thank you for joining us.
:29:25. > :29:27.One of the most contentious issues around our membership of the EU
:29:28. > :29:29.over the years has been the Common Agricultural Policy,
:29:30. > :29:31.the subsidy payments given to farmers across Europe.
:29:32. > :29:33.The British farming industry has a lot to lose with Brexit,
:29:34. > :29:36.and farmers who depend on subsidies to survive will be relying
:29:37. > :29:38.on the UK Government to help with the transition.
:29:39. > :29:40.Our business editor, Naga Munchetty, and film-maker Stuart Denman,
:29:41. > :29:50.To tell their story, they sought help from a familiar face.
:29:51. > :29:59.Once upon a time, there were four little rabbits.
:30:00. > :30:01."Now, my dears", said old Mrs Rabbit one morning, "Don't go
:30:02. > :30:19.He was put in a pie by Mrs MacGregor".
:30:20. > :30:23.The words of Beatrix Potter, author of The Tale Of Peter Rabbit and many
:30:24. > :30:28.In fact, it was her great success as an author which helped
:30:29. > :30:33.By the time she died in 1943, she had 4000 acres, including 14
:30:34. > :30:37.farms, and her home here, Hilltop, all of which she left
:30:38. > :30:44.As a prominent farmer, we can only wonder what Potter
:30:45. > :30:47.or maybe even her characters would have made of the EU,
:30:48. > :30:50.Brexit and of course, the next, unwritten chapter
:30:51. > :30:56.Whom should Peter meet but Mr MacGregor?
:30:57. > :30:58.Peter was most dreadfully frightened.
:30:59. > :31:01.He rushed all over the garden looking for the Brexit.
:31:02. > :31:10.He ran straight into a messy tangle of red tape.
:31:11. > :31:17.Beatrix Potter's farms can be found in the Lake District,
:31:18. > :31:19.where resilience and innovation are as important as ever.
:31:20. > :31:22.There are farmers in Scotland, in Wales, here in the Lake District,
:31:23. > :31:27.John Watson is a tenant farmer at Yew Tree Farm,
:31:28. > :31:32.He uses this to attract tourism to supplement his income.
:31:33. > :31:48.Life is very uncertain at the moment.
:31:49. > :31:50.What's happening with Brexit is going to have a huge,
:31:51. > :31:58.I struggle, year in, year out, trying all different
:31:59. > :32:02.forms of diversification, to try and bring money
:32:03. > :32:05.in because I'm one of these idiots that actually loves farming.
:32:06. > :32:10.I love being out in this beautiful countryside.
:32:11. > :32:12.As a fell farmer, I cannot survive without subsidy.
:32:13. > :32:18.The Common Agricultural Policy was designed to boost productivity.
:32:19. > :32:21.Controversially, the subsidies are based on how much land is owned,
:32:22. > :32:30.UK farmers received 3.1 billion euros last year.
:32:31. > :32:32.Pickles ran the village shop and gave subsidies
:32:33. > :32:37.While some people really liked Pickles' payments,
:32:38. > :32:41.others got fed up with being told what to do and won't be dipping
:32:42. > :32:50.So far, the UK Government has pledged to replace
:32:51. > :32:56.Now, at the grassroots, including here in Exmoor,
:32:57. > :32:59.farmers must consider carefully how to survive in a dramatically
:33:00. > :33:12.It is being called the biggest farming conversation
:33:13. > :33:17.Before the EU referendum, the industry was largely divided
:33:18. > :33:19.but now it is united in looking for opportunities in
:33:20. > :33:25.One question for the farmers who did vote Out is what is more
:33:26. > :33:47.Nothing in this life is free and as we were discovering with EU
:33:48. > :33:53.payments, they were asking for more and more for their free money.
:33:54. > :33:57.The Miltons voted to leave the EU, with the young especially keen,
:33:58. > :34:00.a different story perhaps to the national narrative,
:34:01. > :34:03.which suggested that many younger Remainers were at odds
:34:04. > :34:09.I listened to some of the next generation and they were saying,
:34:10. > :34:15.And the only time opportunities arrive is when you have change.
:34:16. > :34:18.The way I looked at Brexit was, what's the worst that could happen?
:34:19. > :34:21.We would have to sell the farm because we couldn't make it pay.
:34:22. > :34:23.But if you've got the right attitude, you will do
:34:24. > :34:29.I don't think they are going to like me for this.
:34:30. > :34:32.I don't want to kick older farmers out but I think there's a lot
:34:33. > :34:47.The cap has kept them in a farm, when they probably should have let
:34:48. > :34:51.The Miltons all feel the burden of red tape,
:34:52. > :34:54.They hope that after Brexit, it will be better tailored
:34:55. > :34:57.Is the government doing enough to support you?
:34:58. > :35:00.No, there's a feeling not at the moment and I feel
:35:01. > :35:03.the government has lost the focus on what the value of agriculture
:35:04. > :35:06.In 1984, New Zealand's farming industry was transformed
:35:07. > :35:07.when its government scrapped most subsidies.
:35:08. > :35:08.Diversification and intensification were embraced
:35:09. > :35:13.But there's also been criticism as many environmental
:35:14. > :35:22.In the UK, farmers are responsible for environmental upkeep.
:35:23. > :35:25.Upland and fell farmers look after hedgerows,
:35:26. > :35:34.It is an expensive occupation to maintain hedges.
:35:35. > :35:37.A cheaper alternative would be a wire fence.
:35:38. > :35:40.No aesthetic value, no environmental value,
:35:41. > :35:43.but like in New Zealand, practical, does the job,
:35:44. > :35:48.And those responsibilities are for the benefit
:35:49. > :35:53.So there's an expectation, if we are going to help you,
:35:54. > :35:57.I'd like to think we could do without any subsidy all.
:35:58. > :36:00.But that's, that's utter madness, really, if you want us to preserve
:36:01. > :36:05.You can't destroy Exmoor because, as farmers,
:36:06. > :36:10.But some environmental campaigners say that farmers are not doing
:36:11. > :36:15.enough to justify the financial support they are asking for.
:36:16. > :36:17.We see very, very low productivity, one sheep per hectare,
:36:18. > :36:20.one sheep per two hectares, one sheep per five hectares, almost
:36:21. > :36:26.nothing being produced and yet, almost no wildlife either
:36:27. > :36:30.because sheep are a fully automated system for maximum
:36:31. > :36:35.Let them loose in the hills and they nibble everything away.
:36:36. > :36:42.I'm not talking about taking away all sheep.
:36:43. > :36:46.I am just saying, let's stop paying for this damage.
:36:47. > :36:50.In the middle of a lake, there was an island.
:36:51. > :36:54.Twinkleberry and his squirrel friends visited the island,
:36:55. > :36:58."Will You favour us with work, gathering your apples and cabbages?
:36:59. > :37:06.James Hook's Hatcheries produce a third of the
:37:07. > :37:12.He voted Remain but he does not rely on subsidies.
:37:13. > :37:14.Chicken and pig farmers don't get them.
:37:15. > :37:19.We employ 2500 people across the country in
:37:20. > :37:23.About 20% of those are coming from Europe, quite a lot
:37:24. > :37:26.of Eastern European people and that has made a massive difference to our
:37:27. > :37:31.I'm concerned that because of the devaluation of the pound,
:37:32. > :37:34.that the money is now is not as good as it was.
:37:35. > :37:48.And more importantly at all, will they be allowed to come in?
:37:49. > :37:50.James has already closed two facilities because of a shortage
:37:51. > :37:55.Will we have the labour to work on our farms?
:37:56. > :37:57.Will our customers have the labour to work in factories?
:37:58. > :38:00.Will we have the labour to help come and pluck the turkeys at Christmas?
:38:01. > :38:03.Because if we haven't got it, we can't continue.
:38:04. > :38:05.Tommy Brock was a short, bristly, fat, waddling badger.
:38:06. > :38:07.Today, he was complaining bitterly about the scarcity of bananas
:38:08. > :38:13."I am quite sick of straight bananas!"
:38:14. > :38:16.Membership of the EU spawned many a myth.
:38:17. > :38:20.Now it is time to face the realities of leaving.
:38:21. > :38:25.Ensuring food security is a priority.
:38:26. > :38:28.Can enough be produced by UK farmers to feed the country affordably?
:38:29. > :38:31.Peter Kendall is an arable farmer who owns 2000 acres in Bedfordshire
:38:32. > :38:36.He voted to Remain and is now concerned
:38:37. > :38:44.There's a real nervousness that too many, I think,
:38:45. > :38:46.quite prominent politicians now, are advocating cheap food.
:38:47. > :38:51.If they think they are going to scavenge the world
:38:52. > :38:56.for the cheapest possible beef, lamb, grains, dairy products,
:38:57. > :39:00.I think you could see the British countryside massively changed.
:39:01. > :39:03.The environment would be damaged and we would
:39:04. > :39:11.Article 50 will be triggered within days.
:39:12. > :39:17.Farming, like other industries, will need to toil hard to be heard
:39:18. > :39:22.during the government's negotiations.
:39:23. > :39:25.Peter Rabbit has been brought into the 21st-century
:39:26. > :39:27.and there's a desire for a new, shinier version of
:39:28. > :39:33.Whether farmers voted for Brexit or not, leaving could offer
:39:34. > :39:39.the industry the opportunity to make positive changes.
:39:40. > :39:44.We need to move to a world where we are seen to be
:39:45. > :39:48.entrepreneurial businessmen producing for the market,
:39:49. > :39:51.but we do have that reputation of being paid to do nothing.
:39:52. > :39:54.We've actually got a really short period to come up with a domestic
:39:55. > :39:58.policy that understands what farming in the UK is all about.
:39:59. > :40:02.They won't be throwing money at farmers any more.
:40:03. > :40:04.I do love the old-fashioned ways of farming.
:40:05. > :40:14.And that, dear viewers, looks like the end of our tale.
:40:15. > :40:33.Naga Munchetty reporting, with a little help
:40:34. > :40:55.Just before we go, we thought we would show you the Daily Mail front
:40:56. > :40:59.page. That's it for the night, the winners of the world's biggest
:41:00. > :41:02.photography awards are announced tomorrow.
:41:03. > :41:06.Unless you're a Newsnight viewer, in which case you can see them now.