:00:00. > :00:00.We're getting our independence from the EU, which means the EU
:00:07. > :00:17.The German defence minister tell us they're thinking
:00:18. > :00:27.It is true that our British friends were not enthusiastic about the
:00:28. > :00:30.Meanwhile Brexit is underway on all fronts -
:00:31. > :00:35.with new plans to change EU law into UK law today.
:00:36. > :00:37.We'll rehearse the debate among Remainers as to whether to carry
:00:38. > :00:43.on fighting Brexit, or to accept the referendum result.
:00:44. > :00:46.We are in Scotland to hear how it's not the first time the country's
:00:47. > :00:48.found itself making a choice between its neighbours.
:00:49. > :00:50.There have been tensions before between these two
:00:51. > :01:00.The country's sense of its Britishness and its Europeanness.
:01:01. > :01:03.Until recently it could quite happily be both, but not any more.
:01:04. > :01:07.Ivanka Trump - not the First Lady but probably the most powerful
:01:08. > :01:15.Is it right that she now sits at the top
:01:16. > :01:28.It's going to be a two year marathon,
:01:29. > :01:31.not a two week sprint, so it's hard to know how much weight
:01:32. > :01:33.we should be putting on the reactions of other European
:01:34. > :01:40.leaders on Day 2, to Theresa May's letter triggering Article 50.
:01:41. > :01:48.but the words imply that the EU wants to stick to its procedures
:01:49. > :01:53.Dominating European politics at the moment is the centre right
:01:54. > :01:59.It's called the European People's Party, and it's enjoying a two-day
:02:00. > :02:03.The German Chancellor Angela Merkel is there, as is the European
:02:04. > :02:04.Commission President, Jean Claude Juncker,
:02:05. > :02:10.and Brexit of course, among the topics being talked about.
:02:11. > :02:22.I wish to say here that Brexit is of everything. We must consider it to
:02:23. > :02:29.be a new beginning, something that is stronger, something that is
:02:30. > :02:30.better. If Jean-Claude Juncker's view there.
:02:31. > :02:32.So much for the set-piece statements.
:02:33. > :02:34.Perhaps it is better to step away from the platform speeches,
:02:35. > :02:37.and to focus on more specific areas and at more length.
:02:38. > :02:39.To that end, let's go to Berlin, because our diplomatic editor
:02:40. > :02:42.Mark Urban is there, and he has been speaking
:02:43. > :02:50.I know you have been speaking about a number of different things but in
:02:51. > :02:55.particular, just the issue of the German attitudes towards the Article
:02:56. > :02:59.50 talks. What have you been hearing? Well, the fascinating
:03:00. > :03:04.thing, being here at this particular time, is watching German politicians
:03:05. > :03:08.processing the way that the departure of the UK, which they
:03:09. > :03:12.hoped wouldn't happen, is going to change the geometry, the balance of
:03:13. > :03:15.power on all sorts of issues within the EU. They will end up almost
:03:16. > :03:21.certainly paying more into the budget. We don't like the idea that
:03:22. > :03:23.it -- they don't like the idea that it will even out differences in
:03:24. > :03:27.wealth with them being net contributors. They can see some
:03:28. > :03:30.positives and on the issue of European defence policy, that could
:03:31. > :03:38.be one because obviously the British were standing in the way of that in
:03:39. > :03:42.many areas. But what a moment to sit down with the possible successor to
:03:43. > :03:48.Chancellor Merkel. She is the defence minister and we started
:03:49. > :03:53.talking about the issues of the moment and what she made of
:03:54. > :03:59.Britain's attempt, apparently, to use security as a bargaining chip. I
:04:00. > :04:07.do not expect that we're going to Bagan with security topics because
:04:08. > :04:12.it is in our mutual interests to exchange information and necessary.
:04:13. > :04:19.-- I do not expect that we are going to Bagan. It is vital for the two of
:04:20. > :04:24.us. It is about trade and the common market and those are the important
:04:25. > :04:27.things. What is your view about the sequence of this? Can be no real
:04:28. > :04:30.discussion about the wider relationship until it has been
:04:31. > :04:36.settled that the UK will make a contribution on the budget? Well, I
:04:37. > :04:42.have a different approach because at the beginning we said there would be
:04:43. > :04:48.no negotiations before Article 50 has been pulled. This happened
:04:49. > :04:54.yesterday. Then the experts will go into negotiations and one thing is
:04:55. > :04:57.clear, the new contract, the new deal will only be signed once
:04:58. > :05:03.everything has been negotiated. You cannot take bits and pieces apart
:05:04. > :05:08.and close them and go further on other topics. So the whole deal will
:05:09. > :05:13.be visible at the very end, but there is nothing, I think, that we
:05:14. > :05:19.should not speak of openly and addressed directly. How important is
:05:20. > :05:26.it, in that context, that the UK pay its Bill? People have talked about
:05:27. > :05:31.up to 60 billion euros in contributions up to 2020. Of course,
:05:32. > :05:41.as long as the UK is a member of the European Union, you have to meet the
:05:42. > :05:48.contracts, but what that is, at the very end and at the beginning, day
:05:49. > :05:51.one two after the letter has been brought to Brussels, I think we
:05:52. > :05:58.should look at it calmly, and really sort out what is with the membership
:05:59. > :06:06.that has to be paid for, and what is in the negotiation pot which is
:06:07. > :06:12.another topic. You and your British counterparts working on a new
:06:13. > :06:20.defence joint vision, what can we expect from that? Michael Fallon and
:06:21. > :06:24.me, and we want to improve and strengthen the British German
:06:25. > :06:30.military cooperation. That is why we are working on a joint vision, a
:06:31. > :06:35.bilateral thing for the future, how we can improve cooperation with the
:06:36. > :06:41.Armed Forces here, the Maritime forces for example. Exchanging
:06:42. > :06:44.officers, going into training, having common capability
:06:45. > :06:49.developments, things like that. How important is it to get big European
:06:50. > :06:53.dimension of defence right at this particular time? Is the American
:06:54. > :06:58.guarantee is becoming less credible for want of a better word? There
:06:59. > :07:03.were a lot of worries on the European side when we heard
:07:04. > :07:10.contradictory tones from the White House. Saying that it was obsolete,
:07:11. > :07:16.that Nato was great. It was not easy at the beginning. What it triggered
:07:17. > :07:23.was two things. First of all, the question, can we rely on Nato, and
:07:24. > :07:29.today I say, firmly two more firmly than ever, this weekend. On the
:07:30. > :07:33.other hand, the contradictory statements from the White House may
:07:34. > :07:38.give the impression to the Europeans that we have to get our own act
:07:39. > :07:44.together. Crudely, and be blunt, does the UK going make it easier for
:07:45. > :07:49.you to get your act together at the EU level? Because Britain was
:07:50. > :07:53.blocking a lot of this. It is true that our British friends were not
:07:54. > :08:00.enthusiastic about the European security and defence union. Once
:08:01. > :08:08.again, I think it is a pity that the UK is leaving. But it is a fact. And
:08:09. > :08:13.what pushed the European idea forward was more what we heard from
:08:14. > :08:17.the White House after the American election. There have been a lot of
:08:18. > :08:22.reports about the meeting the Chancellor Merkel had. Is it true
:08:23. > :08:26.that President Trump give her a bill for the American defence of Germany?
:08:27. > :08:37.It is not true. But we have all seen the tweet. That presumably Germany
:08:38. > :08:43.owes Nato vast sums of money. But we all know that Nato does not have
:08:44. > :08:48.that account. But you think you can get to the 2% of GDP that it?
:08:49. > :08:52.Absolutely. Because smaller countries, the Baltic states for
:08:53. > :08:59.example, work hard on reaching this 2% goal, two, and nobody would
:09:00. > :09:04.understand that better than a country like Germany, who is
:09:05. > :09:10.determined to have a certain relevance in economic terms, and
:09:11. > :09:14.will not shy away from taking over the amount of responsibility that is
:09:15. > :09:23.necessary in security matters. The 2% goal, it is also a symbol for the
:09:24. > :09:28.resolve to take a fair share of the burden. And we need it. Lastly, I
:09:29. > :09:31.wanted to ask you about Chancellor Merkel. You are one of the very few
:09:32. > :09:39.ministers who has been there right since the beginning with her.
:09:40. > :09:42.Shoulder to shoulder. Did you think, for example during the refugee
:09:43. > :09:47.crisis, I do not think she is going to make it, this is too big? During
:09:48. > :09:50.the refugee crisis, I never doubted that she would make it, because as
:09:51. > :09:56.you said, I was working very closely with her. The problem was that
:09:57. > :10:01.within a few weeks we had to give a very complex answer on how to end
:10:02. > :10:06.this influx of refugees, and when you start to give them an answer
:10:07. > :10:11.that begins in Syria and Iraq and goes through Turkey, to Germany and
:10:12. > :10:16.the local communities, and people go, please, give us a quick answer
:10:17. > :10:19.but don't tell us this long story. Well, it is different now after two
:10:20. > :10:27.years, so the long story now has been learned, and understood, and
:10:28. > :10:36.therefore the confidence and trust is again, that the Chancellor is
:10:37. > :10:45.leading us safely through those very difficult times. Thank you very
:10:46. > :10:47.much, Minister. Mark Urban talking to Ursula von der Leyen, the German
:10:48. > :10:48.defence minister. Meanwhile, we got more detail
:10:49. > :10:51.on the gargantuan task of turning EU There are thousands of pieces
:10:52. > :10:54.of European legislation, the idea is that one new act
:10:55. > :10:57.of Parliament transposes The Great Repeal Bill,
:10:58. > :11:03.as it is referred to now, and it cuts through the impossible
:11:04. > :11:05.task of taking the laws Some of the laws need cleaning up,
:11:06. > :11:16.so the government wants ministers to have the power to re-write
:11:17. > :11:19.bits of them. These are called Henry VIII powers
:11:20. > :11:21.as the egoistical king gave himself exactly
:11:22. > :11:22.that law-making authority. Everybody recognises that some
:11:23. > :11:29.delegated authority will be needed but you can't give completely
:11:30. > :11:37.free reign to ministers. Our political editor
:11:38. > :11:45.Nick Watt is with me. What do you take from today? Over
:11:46. > :11:50.the last 48 hours we have seen the fruits of some careful planning
:11:51. > :11:53.meant to tell the public that we are leading the European Union and that
:11:54. > :11:59.the government has a credible plan to do it. Yesterday, as you were
:12:00. > :12:04.saying, essentially what David Davis was saying is that the UK will land
:12:05. > :12:07.in a legal safe zone on the day after we leave. But interestingly,
:12:08. > :12:10.there is a debate going on in the Conservative Party on that point.
:12:11. > :12:14.You were mentioning the incorporation of all that EU law
:12:15. > :12:18.into UK law. Some of the old guard of Tory Eurosceptics are saying, you
:12:19. > :12:22.know what we want to do with that legislation, we want to get rid of
:12:23. > :12:27.it because Brexit has liberated the UK to be a more liberal economy, but
:12:28. > :12:32.some of the younger guard, in the highly influential European research
:12:33. > :12:34.group, the influential group of Brexiteers, they are saying hold
:12:35. > :12:39.your horses, one step at a time, let's just focus on Brexit, and what
:12:40. > :12:44.we might want to repeal, let's think about after the next election. So
:12:45. > :12:48.what that means is that there is going to be quite a debate on what
:12:49. > :12:51.you should have in the Conservative manifesto for the next election. So
:12:52. > :12:58.look, here is what I have picked up today.
:12:59. > :13:04.It has been dubbed a Briton's greatest peacetime challenge. Today
:13:05. > :13:08.the government of the first steps to ensure that the UK leads you on a
:13:09. > :13:16.sound legal footing, although the grand title was slightly downgraded.
:13:17. > :13:25.First up, the scrapping of the legislation that took us into the
:13:26. > :13:28.EEC in the first place. Once that has been struck down, the government
:13:29. > :13:38.will incorporate the entire body of EU law into UK law. And then we will
:13:39. > :13:46.see the return of England's favourite rotund monarch. As various
:13:47. > :13:51.EU regulations are tweaked around 1000 times. This will be done
:13:52. > :13:55.through a fast-track route with light Parliamentary scrutiny, known
:13:56. > :14:03.as the Henry VIII clauses. And then we will see the return of England's
:14:04. > :14:09.favourite rotund monarch. Various EU regulations will be tweaked around
:14:10. > :14:11.1000 times and this will be done through a fast-track route with
:14:12. > :14:17.light Parliamentary scrutiny known as the Henry VIII clauses. For
:14:18. > :14:23.veteran Eurosceptics, this is a moment of liberation. Can I thank my
:14:24. > :14:28.right honourable friend for making it clear that two years from today,
:14:29. > :14:31.our sovereign parliament will indeed have the power to amend, repeal or
:14:32. > :14:40.improve all of this ghastly EU legislation.
:14:41. > :14:48.Downing Street is acutely conscious of the political sensitivities of
:14:49. > :14:51.scrapping workers' rights such reason they wants to even enhance
:14:52. > :14:55.them but as for other rights, Number 10 says, let us focus on Brexit and
:14:56. > :15:01.leave that debate until the next election. It is fundamentally
:15:02. > :15:05.important we have robust workers' rights, we have to protect workers
:15:06. > :15:09.and we also heard ministers say that where we can we want to build on
:15:10. > :15:14.that and make progress, we have often been at the forefront of that
:15:15. > :15:17.work in the EU and in my constituency I work very closely
:15:18. > :15:21.with the unions and I want to see a constructive debate in this country
:15:22. > :15:26.about all of these different policy areas and come up with a set of
:15:27. > :15:30.policies, we must get this right. In the heart of government there are
:15:31. > :15:33.far greater nerves about the next step, the looming Parliamentary
:15:34. > :15:37.battles over what is known as a Great Repeal Bill. Some ministers
:15:38. > :15:42.are warning Theresa May and she may be forced to hold a snap General
:15:43. > :15:46.Election next year if either of the Commons, the House of Lords or the
:15:47. > :15:51.Scottish Parliament succeeds in delaying or even scuppering that
:15:52. > :15:55.bill. In both the House of Commons and House of Lords there is a huge
:15:56. > :15:59.amount of originally and argy-bargy, everything they have done at every
:16:00. > :16:04.turn, not just this bill but way they had to be brought kicking and
:16:05. > :16:11.screaming to accept that Parliament has a role, even if it is an
:16:12. > :16:14.excessively limited role, in determining the final deal and they
:16:15. > :16:18.have done the exact reverse to what they told the country they would do.
:16:19. > :16:23.The Scottish Parliament could hold up the process by refusing to give
:16:24. > :16:27.consent to the changes if a majority of MSPs decide they are unhappy with
:16:28. > :16:33.the extensive EU powers handed over to Edinburgh. If Westminster
:16:34. > :16:40.attempts to use the Great Repeal Bill as a power grab to take away
:16:41. > :16:43.from Hollywood powers that are already devolved, we will have a
:16:44. > :16:48.constitutional crisis and there is no way the constitutional Scottish
:16:49. > :16:54.Parliament would give consent to having powers taken away from it. As
:16:55. > :16:58.he drafts the historic legislation, David Davis is making clear he will
:16:59. > :17:04.abide by the convention that gives the devolved bodies say but the
:17:05. > :17:07.Brexit Secretary will issue a blunt warning to Holyrood- if you stand on
:17:08. > :17:17.the way you may make Scotland and possibly the UK ungovernable. Nick
:17:18. > :17:18.Watt. And that got stuck in the middle. And Nick Watt was not Nick
:17:19. > :17:25.Clegg! Sorry about that! Well, should the Remainers
:17:26. > :17:27.try to block the Great Reform Bill, Or is it time to accept
:17:28. > :17:32.the referendum result and move on. Within the Remainer community, there
:17:33. > :17:35.is something of a divide on that. Last night on this programme,
:17:36. > :17:38.you might have seen Lord Heseltine, Tim Farron says there'll be
:17:39. > :17:43.a "legislative war". But there are those with their views
:17:44. > :17:45.of Brexit, who believe Let's both sides
:17:46. > :17:51.of that argument now. Joining me is Labour
:17:52. > :17:53.MP Chris Leslie, who's a supporter of Open Britain,
:17:54. > :17:56.the group that came out of the Their former Deputy Director
:17:57. > :18:04.was Lucy Thomas, who also joins us. She is now working at PR firm
:18:05. > :18:15.Edelman, advising businesses on how Good evening. Lucy, you are running
:18:16. > :18:20.the campaign at the top of the campaign, where are you on what we
:18:21. > :18:24.should be doing about Brexit? Firstly, I'm still emotional about
:18:25. > :18:28.it, even the sight of Theresa May with that letter did make me cry,
:18:29. > :18:36.frankly. I am still emotional and disappointed. However, I think the
:18:37. > :18:40.question is, what we do it that is constructive? For me, that is about
:18:41. > :18:45.being constructive, coming up with solutions to the problem and working
:18:46. > :18:49.together to find the right deal and that means businesses, thinking
:18:50. > :18:53.about what they would like out of a final negotiation, for example, how
:18:54. > :18:58.would they replace the current free movement rules and what they want
:18:59. > :19:03.from a trade deal? And legislative war, trying to block by
:19:04. > :19:07.Parliamentary tactics, the so-called Great Repeal Bill, that is not the
:19:08. > :19:13.way to about this? The Leave campaign wanted to take back control
:19:14. > :19:17.for Parliament and they wanted more sovereignty so I think Parliament
:19:18. > :19:21.has a huge role in scrutinising the process and making sure it is as
:19:22. > :19:28.good as possible, but where I do not agree with some people on the tenth
:19:29. > :19:31.one side, people like Lily Allen, she tweeted this week saying every
:19:32. > :19:37.bill in this country and every missed opportunity and every job
:19:38. > :19:46.lost, but is down to Brexit and this name-calling... Chris, do you think
:19:47. > :19:52.the Lib Dems or Remainers should use the Great Repeal Bill as a way of
:19:53. > :19:59.holding the government, obstructing Brexit? I do not think we can
:20:00. > :20:03.obstruct the outcome of the referendum but there are so many
:20:04. > :20:07.consequences that flow from Britain's exit and divorce from EU
:20:08. > :20:12.that we have a responsibility to not just hold the government to account
:20:13. > :20:16.but hold the Leave campaign to account for those massive promises
:20:17. > :20:23.they made and it is not just a vote at the end in 2019... What is your
:20:24. > :20:30.objective? When we find we will not get ?350 million every week to the
:20:31. > :20:33.NHS, apart from pointing out that is not an exact representation of what
:20:34. > :20:39.the situation was, what do you hope to do when you say you want to
:20:40. > :20:43.expose and hold them to the things they said in the campaign? For those
:20:44. > :20:50.of us who take a world view about Brexit rather than this having the
:20:51. > :20:55.moon on a stick, that view, we have to walk through with the public and
:20:56. > :20:59.the business community and the wider economy, the consequences of making
:21:00. > :21:03.this major decision, it might be that over time there is space for
:21:04. > :21:07.people to change their opinion about these things. We're talking about
:21:08. > :21:13.not just two years but possibly multiple years... What are you
:21:14. > :21:18.trying to achieve? To reverse it or change it or watch? Or just get in
:21:19. > :21:25.the way? I am on the centre-left, I want to fight. I might watch? Five
:21:26. > :21:30.years of Alliance building and reaching out to our neighbours to
:21:31. > :21:34.defence trade and living standards. It is talking about a special and
:21:35. > :21:40.steep partnership. Unfortunately, because we had from the Leave
:21:41. > :21:46.campaign, they will be unable to fulfil that cost free divorce,
:21:47. > :21:50.making major savings, preserving the union, no problems in Northern
:21:51. > :21:54.Ireland, Scotland will be integrated with the UK, migration levels will
:21:55. > :21:57.fall and be here right now they will not even promised that. We have to
:21:58. > :22:03.hold them to account when they have been breaking promises and secondly,
:22:04. > :22:10.show people that there is actually a need for integration across Europe
:22:11. > :22:15.and those are the close partners. Is that a coherent approach, Lucy?
:22:16. > :22:19.Ultimately, it comes down to what your tactics are and your objective
:22:20. > :22:26.at the end of it. The objective is key. What was interesting in the
:22:27. > :22:30.letter yesterday was there were quite a few significant climb-downs,
:22:31. > :22:35.the ECJ, there could be jurisdiction, we will end up paying
:22:36. > :22:40.up to ?50 billion but we will see what the final figure is. On free
:22:41. > :22:45.movement, it will not perhaps be as hard as we have been told so for me,
:22:46. > :22:49.we have to wait and see more. I don't think jumping on every piece
:22:50. > :22:53.of rhetoric is the answer, Theresa May had to be very hard line but
:22:54. > :22:58.when it comes to the letters and the details, she will be pragmatic. I
:22:59. > :23:01.don't think we should give up on the single market altogether, there is
:23:02. > :23:04.potential to reform the single market, with a different government
:23:05. > :23:11.we could have reformed that migration colour. Today, we heard
:23:12. > :23:17.from David Davis. In legal terms, we are still in the European Economic
:23:18. > :23:22.Area, which is the single market. Parliament has not voted to leave.
:23:23. > :23:26.We might have a vote on that. We might need to still be in the single
:23:27. > :23:32.market during the transitional period and I will fight to preserve
:23:33. > :23:39.those benefits of membership and am disappointed with people who have
:23:40. > :23:44.given up on that. You want to stay in the single market. Will you have
:23:45. > :23:52.a legislative war to kind of get in the way of Theresa May's version? Or
:23:53. > :23:54.will you be constructive? There is a moderate majority in the House of
:23:55. > :24:00.Commons that believes in a pragmatic approach to European alliances and
:24:01. > :24:05.there might be a sizeable number of quite hard Brexiteers to the right
:24:06. > :24:09.of Theresa May but actually the rest of us should set that and in all of
:24:10. > :24:12.those foods we have in the House of Commons, we can provide a space for
:24:13. > :24:16.a sensible approach from the Prime Minister and she has to make copper
:24:17. > :24:21.rises to preserve the alliances, that is do what we can to preserve
:24:22. > :24:22.them. Thank you both very much. -- compromises.
:24:23. > :24:24.We'll take a short break now, for Viewsnight.
:24:25. > :24:27.Tonight, Myriam Francois looks at religion, dress
:24:28. > :24:37.Imposing neutral clothing is just discrimination in disguise.
:24:38. > :24:41.If I come to work wearing a headscarf or a face veil
:24:42. > :24:46.or a cross or a hoodie or dress head to toe in tweed and a flat
:24:47. > :24:54.Our clothing speaks to our background, our class and our ideals
:24:55. > :24:58.and I would argue that all of those are political.
:24:59. > :25:01.A recent European Court of Justice ruling upheld that workplaces
:25:02. > :25:04.with a so-called neutrality policy were within their right to ban items
:25:05. > :25:10.they thought weren't neutral, such as a cross or a head scarf.
:25:11. > :25:12.For some, enforcing political and religious neutrality is key
:25:13. > :25:17.But for others, it's just discrimination dressed
:25:18. > :25:25.Neutrality is what is normal for the majority of people.
:25:26. > :25:30.In white, secular Europe, neutrality reflects the norms
:25:31. > :25:34.If we think of religiosity as a spectrum from areligious
:25:35. > :25:38.to religious, no single position on that spectrum is any more
:25:39. > :25:45.Dressing in a way that is areligious is just as political or just
:25:46. > :25:48.as neutral as dressing with religious markers.
:25:49. > :25:50.Either way, you are saying something with your appearance.
:25:51. > :25:55.That is the very basis of advertising.
:25:56. > :25:56.Are slogan T-shirts, which are all the rage,
:25:57. > :26:01.What about dreadlocks or wearing a red or blue tie?
:26:02. > :26:04.What about wearing your Afro hair natural or choosing rainbow
:26:05. > :26:11.It crystallises a vision of what is normal and is used
:26:12. > :26:15.to erase the differences that bother us.
:26:16. > :26:18.Banning the headscarf at work, which - let's face it -
:26:19. > :26:21.is what most conversations about neutrality in Europe
:26:22. > :26:25.are all about, cannot be separated from broader discussions
:26:26. > :26:29.about Muslims as a problem community.
:26:30. > :26:31.Neutrality is being used to marginalise identities that don't
:26:32. > :26:34.fit the myth of secular progress and that is just
:26:35. > :26:50.We've looked at the Great Repeal Bill, and its Henry VIII
:26:51. > :26:52.clauses; but that is not the only constitutional challenge facing us.
:26:53. > :26:54.There is a potential second Scottish independence referendum.
:26:55. > :26:57.Nicola Sturgeon wants to keep a Scottish link to the EU.
:26:58. > :27:00.And therein lies a second Tudor analogy.
:27:01. > :27:04.In the 1540s - after England had broken with Rome -
:27:05. > :27:08.the Scottish court was divided between those who wanted to follow
:27:09. > :27:11.England and those loyal to the 'auld alliance' with the French.
:27:12. > :27:15.So Henry VIII sent an army up to Edinburgh to 'woo' the Scots over
:27:16. > :27:20.Allan Little's been taking a look at the war of the Rough Wooing,
:27:21. > :27:27.History seeps from every soot black rock of this old capital.
:27:28. > :27:32.When England broke with Rome in the 1530s, the Brexit
:27:33. > :27:35.of the Tudor age, Henry VIII sent an invading army to Edinburgh
:27:36. > :27:39.to try to keep Scotland on his side, rather than Europe's.
:27:40. > :27:42.The English army landed down there at the Port of Leith
:27:43. > :27:44.and advanced up this road in vast numbers, laying waste
:27:45. > :27:47.to the neighbouring borough of Canongate.
:27:48. > :27:50.And when they breached the city walls, they destroyed much
:27:51. > :27:52.of the ancient medieval heart of Edinburgh.
:27:53. > :27:57.They wanted to wrest power away from those factions in Scottish
:27:58. > :28:00.society that favoured alliances with the French and hand it to those
:28:01. > :28:07.who wanted to draw Scotland into the English fold.
:28:08. > :28:11.That Anglo-Scottish war came to be known as the Rough Wooing.
:28:12. > :28:14.Scotland is, once again, torn between factions.
:28:15. > :28:20.The wooing of the Scots has changed a bit since
:28:21. > :28:27.England pours all manner of resources into it
:28:28. > :28:31.when they arrive with a huge fleet and then sends thousands of men up
:28:32. > :28:34.They turn up with artillery weapons, then you have a situation
:28:35. > :28:37.where parts of the town are actually set on fire.
:28:38. > :28:40.There is huge damage done to the Canongate.
:28:41. > :28:43.You have damage done to Holyrood Palace and Holyrood Abbey.
:28:44. > :28:51.So it is attacking a lot of the heart of the Kingdom of Scotland.
:28:52. > :28:54.Theresa May's approach to wooing the Scots needs to be a bit more
:28:55. > :28:57.But the aim is, in essence, the same.
:28:58. > :29:00.To keep Scotland on board, to make sure that pro-union sentiment
:29:01. > :29:07.So, in the mid-16th century, you have Scotland divided
:29:08. > :29:10.in its loyalties between alliance with England and a
:29:11. > :29:17.And I think in both cases you have Scots not necessarily being totally
:29:18. > :29:25.Edinburgh's architecture celebrates the age when commitment
:29:26. > :29:31.England and Scotland joined in the great enterprise
:29:32. > :29:33.of Britishness, and often a Britishness that stood
:29:34. > :29:38.against the perceived menace of continental Europe.
:29:39. > :29:40.There have been tensions before between these two
:29:41. > :29:46.The country's sense of its Britishness and its European-ness.
:29:47. > :29:48.Until recently, it could quite happily be both.
:29:49. > :29:53.A second referendum will bring that tension to the fore and confront
:29:54. > :30:02.Which would you rather be - British or European?
:30:03. > :30:07.The Port of Leith, where that English army landed,
:30:08. > :30:10.was once Scotland's great gateway to trade with Europe.
:30:11. > :30:12.Before the union, when Scotland turned west to the wide open seas
:30:13. > :30:17.But Scotland voted 62% to stay in Europe.
:30:18. > :30:21.Many see that as a chance to forge a new place in the world
:30:22. > :30:25.It seems as if England is on a self-destruct path
:30:26. > :30:29.and because it is the largest part of the UK population,
:30:30. > :30:32.it is determined to bring everyone with it.
:30:33. > :30:35.We talked a lot in the first referendum about Scotland having
:30:36. > :30:38.a distinctive political culture and an awful lot of
:30:39. > :30:43.The second they saw that 62%, they saw it.
:30:44. > :30:47.But only 45% voted for independence in 2014 and about a third of them
:30:48. > :30:55.There are dangers from Nicola Sturgeon in tying the case
:30:56. > :30:59.for independence too closely to the case for Europe.
:31:00. > :31:02.Of course, there are people within Scotland and within the independence
:31:03. > :31:05.movement who don't like the idea of Europe one iota.
:31:06. > :31:12.There has to be more drive and focus and progressive thinking
:31:13. > :31:16.Denmark, Finland, Scotland, Sweden - a row of little, independent
:31:17. > :31:19.northern states, determined to break up that hegemony of
:31:20. > :31:29.But how entrenched is Scotland's European identity?
:31:30. > :31:31.The age demographics don't look good for the union.
:31:32. > :31:34.Polls show the young tend to favour independence
:31:35. > :31:39.At Leith Academy, 36 languages are spoken.
:31:40. > :31:41.Tomorrow's voters have multiple, overlapping, sometimes
:31:42. > :31:47.I would probably go for European because I grew up with a lot
:31:48. > :31:57.I just feel like I am more European than I would say I am British.
:31:58. > :32:00.Harry, if it came to a choice between being European or being
:32:01. > :32:10.Do you see a tension between the values that Britain
:32:11. > :32:13.represents and the values that Scotland represents?
:32:14. > :32:20.Because I always feel like there has been a big tension between Scotland
:32:21. > :32:22.and England and I would identify myself more with Scottish
:32:23. > :32:26.I think we have completely different values.
:32:27. > :32:33.To be British represents being an imperialistic,
:32:34. > :32:34.capitalist, unfair society where people don't matter.
:32:35. > :32:37.Whereas in Scotland, we are more equal and we are inclusive
:32:38. > :32:40.and we care about trying to help each other and trying
:32:41. > :32:47.to make everyone better, not just the people at the top.
:32:48. > :32:51.I am British and I think I have hit into the culture down in England
:32:52. > :32:59.But if Brexit makes Scots inclined more to a European world
:33:00. > :33:01.view, it also changes the independence proposition.
:33:02. > :33:09.The prospect of a hard border across the island of Britain.
:33:10. > :33:13.Jim Gallaher was a senior civil servant who has worked for decades
:33:14. > :33:15.on relations between Scotland and Westminster and was
:33:16. > :33:22.a leading thinker in the pro-union camp in 2014.
:33:23. > :33:25.Outside the single market, and if the UK is outside
:33:26. > :33:28.the Customs Union, you are talking about some form of border control
:33:29. > :33:29.and some substantial restriction on trade
:33:30. > :33:38.And since England is by far Scotland's biggest market,
:33:39. > :33:41.the economic effects of that are very real.
:33:42. > :33:43.Not to mention, even, potentially the effects
:33:44. > :33:49.He needs no wooing from London, rough or otherwise.
:33:50. > :33:52.Like Scotland itself, he voted to stay in both unions.
:33:53. > :33:54.But he is clear about which matters more.
:33:55. > :33:58.What it does do for the proponents of independence is give them
:33:59. > :34:03.The English are different from us, they say.
:34:04. > :34:06.Well, I rather suspect that in the long run,
:34:07. > :34:08.the English are really much more like us than we are like
:34:09. > :34:15.Henry VIII's English army made it this far,
:34:16. > :34:19.But the castle held out and Scotland stayed, for now,
:34:20. > :34:26.The English went home to work out why burning down the capital city
:34:27. > :34:28.didn't win them the friendship of the Scots.
:34:29. > :34:30.That phrase, "Rough Wooing", comes from a comment attributed
:34:31. > :34:35.to the fourth Earl of Huntley, who said of the English...
:34:36. > :34:38."We did not like the manner of their wooing and could not stoop
:34:39. > :34:42.That theme runs through Scottish history like a thread
:34:43. > :34:51.The union has been at its strongest when Scotland has felt concrete
:34:52. > :34:53.reason to love the shared enterprise of Britishness, whatever
:34:54. > :35:00.It has been at its weakest when England, through sheer
:35:01. > :35:02.superiority of numbers, has felt entitled to impose
:35:03. > :35:06.on Scotland something Scotland has rejected.
:35:07. > :35:08.England and Scotland married in the end and the marriage has
:35:09. > :35:13.But they are leading increasingly separate lives these days,
:35:14. > :35:20.The manner of that wooing could determine
:35:21. > :35:33.Among Trump-haters, Ivanka Trump has sometimes caused a kind
:35:34. > :35:39.She's a Trump, so should be hated, and yet she seems like a good
:35:40. > :35:43.She seems more liberal - in the election campaign,
:35:44. > :35:46.she championed childcare as an issue.
:35:47. > :35:50.She comes across as a strong woman in the team, she was appropriately
:35:51. > :35:53.disapproving of her father's remarks on that coach about grabbing women.
:35:54. > :35:56.And she seems to have struck up a friendship with Justin Trudeau -
:35:57. > :36:02.Well, what to make of the fact that Ivanka now has a formal role
:36:03. > :36:11.She did have that role informally, but the arrangement was criticised,
:36:12. > :36:13.it was seen as too powerful a position not
:36:14. > :36:15.to be properly governed by the rules of employees.
:36:16. > :36:18.But still some will say Ivanka's role is nepotism in action.
:36:19. > :36:20.Others might say it is inevitable that
:36:21. > :36:22.presidents will use family as trusted advisors.
:36:23. > :36:24.Let's talk to Doug Wead, who was a special assistant
:36:25. > :36:26.to President George Bush Snr and has written extensively
:36:27. > :36:37.Very good evening to you. How often have president is given a proper
:36:38. > :36:43.role, former or informal, to close members of family? All through
:36:44. > :36:49.American history. I counted about 18 or 19, depending on how you define
:36:50. > :36:53.them, and daughters who have had very powerful roles in their
:36:54. > :37:02.father's White House. And you were there when George Bush senior
:37:03. > :37:06.implied his son in the White House. -- employed. He was not in the White
:37:07. > :37:11.House, he was in the campaign but we talked about that a lot and that was
:37:12. > :37:14.why I began my study of presidential children. He came into the middle of
:37:15. > :37:19.his father's campaign and what I learned is that even the White
:37:20. > :37:23.House, if you make a decision and you are wrong, you get fired. If you
:37:24. > :37:27.make a decision and you are right, you make everybody mad and you do
:37:28. > :37:30.not get credit for it anyway, the credit goes up, so no one makes
:37:31. > :37:35.decisions. The governments are present in this case the campaign
:37:36. > :37:39.suffered. When George W Bush came into the campaign on March of 1987,
:37:40. > :37:46.he made decisions, and it transformed the campaign. And I
:37:47. > :37:48.wondered, how will his father be president of the United States
:37:49. > :37:52.without his son in the White House with him? And I believe that if he
:37:53. > :37:56.had gone in the White House with him, George HW Bush would have been
:37:57. > :37:59.re-elected and George W Bush would not have become president. History
:38:00. > :38:03.would have been very different. There is something a bit nepotistic
:38:04. > :38:07.in there, that corrupt. The president of Congo would the idea
:38:08. > :38:12.will stop I picked Congo at random. Appointing sons or daughters, it is
:38:13. > :38:19.not what you think of advanced Western societies doing as a way of
:38:20. > :38:23.running themselves, is it? They have been doing it from the beginning.
:38:24. > :38:29.George Adams was the secretary to his father and Martin Van Buren
:38:30. > :38:34.appointed his son as secretary. All the way through history. When he is
:38:35. > :38:40.one of his father's bodyguard and secretary and a fractal Chief of
:38:41. > :38:46.Staff. Anna Roosevelt ran the White House in FDR's last year of power.
:38:47. > :38:49.It was inevitable, because they need loyalty. That is the most important
:38:50. > :38:53.loyalty in the White House. And they need honesty. A lot of people will
:38:54. > :38:57.not tell the president what he needs to hear but a son or daughter will.
:38:58. > :39:02.And they need someone who will make decisions. And they cannot be fired,
:39:03. > :39:13.the son or daughter. What you think of it like a Trump? -- what do you
:39:14. > :39:16.think of Ivanka Trump. I wrote a book called Game of Thorns and
:39:17. > :39:21.predicted that he would call on her and she would become powerful in
:39:22. > :39:26.this White House. I have been an adviser in this White House and I
:39:27. > :39:30.see this young lady as capable and talented. It is not about balancing
:39:31. > :39:35.the politics, it is about the need for loyalty and competence and
:39:36. > :39:39.continuity. She cannot be fired as daughter. She can be fired in that
:39:40. > :39:44.position but she will come back to the dinner table, so if you give
:39:45. > :39:47.information, she becomes part of the plan and there is continuity. That
:39:48. > :39:56.will last and a lot of these leaders are around Trump will be gone in a
:39:57. > :39:58.few years, but a backdrop will stay. -- but Ivanka Trump will stay. They
:39:59. > :40:00.give very much. From tomorrow visitors
:40:01. > :40:02.to the Naval College in Greenwich will get a rare opportunity to get
:40:03. > :40:05.a close up view of the ceiling of its famous 'Painted Hall' -
:40:06. > :40:08.the lavish centre piece at the heart It's been described as the UK's
:40:09. > :40:17.Sistine Chapel and over the next two years, conservators will be
:40:18. > :40:19.restoring the work - We leave you tonight
:40:20. > :40:22.with the College's conservation director William Palin -
:40:23. > :40:25.on why the ceiling is so important. We're standing beneath this
:40:26. > :40:57.extraordinary painted ceiling, the greatest work
:40:58. > :40:59.of English baroque art. This is the largest painted
:41:00. > :41:01.ceiling in northern Europe. I think it's very hard
:41:02. > :41:04.to find anything to compare I suppose 'the Sistine Chapel
:41:05. > :41:07.of Britain' conveys something of the scale and magnificence
:41:08. > :41:09.of this interior. And the idea was always
:41:10. > :41:12.that this room would dazzle and amaze and overwhelm,
:41:13. > :41:14.so visitors would arrive here, look up, see this amazing
:41:15. > :41:16.ceiling and then think, "hmm, I'll leave some money
:41:17. > :41:18.for the foundation to help This was Britain's response
:41:19. > :41:21.to European culture, saying, "We can do this
:41:22. > :41:23.as well, if not better We have a baroque decorative scheme
:41:24. > :41:27.celebrating the Protestant monarchy and we have a building
:41:28. > :41:53.of unparalleled magnificence. After today's warmth,
:41:54. > :41:57.it's going to be a very A little rain could wander
:41:58. > :42:01.into eastern parts of England for a while but most of the wet
:42:02. > :42:04.weather is further west and it is tracking its way away
:42:05. > :42:08.from Wales and Northern Ireland, So we're going to have a window
:42:09. > :42:12.around the middle part of the day,