:00:00. > :00:00.The finger of blame is pointed at Bashir Al Assad for a suspected
:00:00. > :00:00.chemical weapons attack on the Syrian opposition town
:00:00. > :00:09.in Idlib killing more than 50 people.
:00:10. > :00:12.With Russia on his side and The White House stating that
:00:13. > :00:14.defeating IS, not regime change in Syria, is their aim,
:00:15. > :00:21.we'll ask Obama's chemical weapons expert - who can stop Assad?
:00:22. > :00:23.Also tonight, Ken Livingstone is suspended from holding office
:00:24. > :00:25.in the Labour Party for two years for stating that
:00:26. > :00:33.What's he got to say about that and his punnishment tonight?
:00:34. > :00:40.And, are fans of Marvel Comic books resistant to change?
:00:41. > :00:41.It's 1960s Spiderman versus 2011 Spiderman.
:00:42. > :01:01.Western governments seem to be in no doubt that President Bashir Al Assad
:01:02. > :01:03.is responsible for what appears to be a deadly chemical weapons
:01:04. > :01:06.attack in Idlib province which has killed dozens of people including
:01:07. > :01:11.at least eleven children and injured hundreds more.
:01:12. > :01:14.The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said if proved
:01:15. > :01:20.The UN Security Council is holding an emergency meeting tomorrow
:01:21. > :01:25.If Assad is the culprit, something the Syrian regime denies,
:01:26. > :01:28.then it is surely evidence that he believes he can act
:01:29. > :01:32.with impunity not least because Russia is his ally,
:01:33. > :01:35.and the White House has recently stated its priority is not removing
:01:36. > :01:42.But today The White House pointed the finger of blame at Barak Obama
:01:43. > :01:44.saying that "these heinous actions are a consequence of
:01:45. > :01:48.the last administration's weakness and irresolution.
:01:49. > :01:50.President Obama said in 2012 he would establish a red line
:01:51. > :01:56.against the use of chemical weapons and then he did nothing."
:01:57. > :01:58.Before we discuss the next move, if any against Assad,
:01:59. > :02:00.here's John Sweeney on the dreadful events in Idlib.
:02:01. > :02:03.And a word of warning: John's film contains some extremely distressing
:02:04. > :02:16.To use chemical weapons is to break the rules of war.
:02:17. > :02:21.Did a war crime happen morning in Syria?
:02:22. > :02:23.To come to a judgment on that, this is some of
:02:24. > :02:29.Much of it filmed by local activists.
:02:30. > :02:37.People reported the sound of warplanes shortly after dawn.
:02:38. > :02:47.In a village, 30 miles south of Idlib.
:02:48. > :02:50.The prime suspect is sarin, a nerve agent, 20 times more
:02:51. > :02:54.They foam at the mouth, their faces go bright red
:02:55. > :03:05.Surgeon David Knott got in touch with a Syrian
:03:06. > :03:12.hospital in Idlib today, 30 miles north of where the attack took
:03:13. > :03:16.The Syrian doctor treated ten patients who were struggling to
:03:17. > :03:25.We are looking at some photographs that were sent to me
:03:26. > :03:29.this morning from this town in Idlib, which shows eight dead
:03:30. > :03:37.children some of them are frothing at the mouth, some of them are in
:03:38. > :03:41.I can see one boy whose arms are obviously flexed
:03:42. > :03:44.and extended and that is the position that he died in.
:03:45. > :03:46.What actually happens is that when the
:03:47. > :03:49.muscles work, they work in 1 degree and then they do not relax.
:03:50. > :03:51.When you take a deep breath in, you then
:03:52. > :03:54.The muscle goes into paralysis, and it stays like
:03:55. > :04:00.Are there any of these boys here, did they have frothing at the
:04:01. > :04:09.One of them in the middle, you can see, his nose, he is
:04:10. > :04:13.obviously cyanose, because he is sort
:04:14. > :04:18.definite for at the mouth there and you know, it is a sign of
:04:19. > :04:20.bronchospasm that he has been unable to take a deep breath in.
:04:21. > :04:24.This is another photograph from today's
:04:25. > :04:29.attack, showing foaming at the mouth.
:04:30. > :04:31.One of the things that the nerve agents do is cause massive
:04:32. > :04:34.So you get this massive production of
:04:35. > :04:37.surfactant, then people are trying to breathe through it, it is a bit
:04:38. > :04:46.like trying to breathe through soapy water.
:04:47. > :04:52.So you get all of these bubbles formed as they tried to in hell and
:04:53. > :05:01.exhale and this is why the foam appears at the mouth. So who did
:05:02. > :05:06.this? The Assad regime has denied responsibility. Its supporters
:05:07. > :05:13.suggesting that a rebel chemical factory exploded. Is this likely? I
:05:14. > :05:16.think it is very unlikely. At this stage, much requires answering. We
:05:17. > :05:23.have no idea where the chemicals came from. Syria has signed a treaty
:05:24. > :05:27.forbidding the use of chemical weapons. Syria signed this treaty
:05:28. > :05:32.and it ought to be respecting the law, but the evidence suggests it is
:05:33. > :05:36.not, so somebody has to be accountable. And after this latest
:05:37. > :05:43.incident which if you like is a step change up again from the use of
:05:44. > :05:47.chlorine, this suggests that the regime perhaps is feeling emboldened
:05:48. > :05:54.in some way that it can use these things with impunity and that should
:05:55. > :06:00.not be allowed. The regime has previous four using sarin. The
:06:01. > :06:06.village is in territory held by rebels that oppose Assad but not
:06:07. > :06:11.Islamic State. Their capital is almost 200 miles away. In 2013, the
:06:12. > :06:17.regime used her nerve agent south-east of Damascus killing
:06:18. > :06:23.hundreds. How likely is the prospect of an effective international
:06:24. > :06:30.action? There has been a recent shift in Syria among activists. Some
:06:31. > :06:34.countries like Turkey, they are busy with their own domestic issues,
:06:35. > :06:38.other countries like Saudi Arabia are more involved in other countries
:06:39. > :06:43.like Yemen. When it comes to international players, there has
:06:44. > :06:46.been a shift, the latest one was announced by the US recently when
:06:47. > :06:51.they said that Assad is not a priority and changing the regime is
:06:52. > :06:55.not a priority. That made Assad more comfortable. Last week the Trump
:06:56. > :07:02.Administration seemed to suggest that regime change was now off the
:07:03. > :07:06.table. I think the status and the longer term status of President
:07:07. > :07:13.Assad will be decided by the Syrian people. Faced with compelling
:07:14. > :07:20.evidence of a war crime, local people did their best. They poured
:07:21. > :07:25.water on the nerve agent victims. It won't have done much good, but still
:07:26. > :07:29.more than the efforts of the international community. John
:07:30. > :07:31.Swinney reporting there. Well, we did ask the US
:07:32. > :07:33.Administration for an interview Earlier, I interviewed Gary Samore,
:07:34. > :07:36.who was President Obama's expert I asked him what he made
:07:37. > :07:41.of today's pictures. As best as I can tell
:07:42. > :07:44.from the symptoms of the victims, it looks very much like a sarin gas
:07:45. > :07:47.attack, so either they have retained some sarin gas,
:07:48. > :07:52.did not fully declare it and allow it to be destroyed or they have
:07:53. > :07:57.produced some fresh sarin gas since the disarmament agreement
:07:58. > :08:04.was implemented in 2014. Now, the White House says that this
:08:05. > :08:07.attack is a kind of direct infringement of Barack Obama's red
:08:08. > :08:09.line policy, that he instituted and Well it is certainly true that
:08:10. > :08:23.President Obama was not prepared to use direct US military force
:08:24. > :08:26.in order to hasten the overthrow And it is the survival of the Assad
:08:27. > :08:35.regime which leads to these And now the fighting is in Idlib
:08:36. > :08:43.province and I think we can expect to see more instances of chemical
:08:44. > :08:46.weapons use as the Syrian regime begins to retake
:08:47. > :08:48.territory from rebels that So essentially, Bashar al-Assad
:08:49. > :08:57.can act with impunity and you have the White House saying
:08:58. > :09:00.that regime change for them is not on the agenda in Syria,
:09:01. > :09:07.their main target is IS. So, there is no stopping
:09:08. > :09:10.Bashar al-Assad, is there? I mean, the Trump Administration
:09:11. > :09:14.tried to pass a sanctions resolution in February of this year,
:09:15. > :09:17.to punish the Assad government for using chemical weapons,
:09:18. > :09:25.but Russia and China vetoed it. So I would expect a pretty similar
:09:26. > :09:29.scenario to play out. There will be probably a UN
:09:30. > :09:33.investigation of some kind, most likely concluding
:09:34. > :09:35.that the Syrian government has once again used chemical weapons,
:09:36. > :09:37.the US and its European allies will try to pass a sanctions
:09:38. > :09:40.resolution and it will be blocked The Russians are saying
:09:41. > :09:49.that they knew nothing about this. Do you think that actually
:09:50. > :09:51.there will come a point where the Kremlin thinks that Assad
:09:52. > :09:54.is just too much trouble At this point I think the Russians
:09:55. > :10:03.are committed to a peace settlement that would allow Assad to retain
:10:04. > :10:08.control for the time being. The Russians might quietly exert
:10:09. > :10:10.pressure to limit the use of chemical weapons,
:10:11. > :10:14.because I think it is an embarrassment to Moscow,
:10:15. > :10:16.but I think it is pretty clear that Assad must feel that he has license
:10:17. > :10:20.to make limited use of chemical weapons on the battlefield,
:10:21. > :10:23.without much fear of the Russians abandoning him or the US or other
:10:24. > :10:26.countries taking military But when these absolutely dreadful
:10:27. > :10:33.pictures are beamed around the world, is there anyone,
:10:34. > :10:35.any way that Assad will ever So there may come a day at some
:10:36. > :10:44.point in the future where Assad and people around him are held
:10:45. > :10:46.accountable, but at least in the near term, I think
:10:47. > :10:49.it is quite unlikely. The US under Trump, frankly as under
:10:50. > :10:53.Obama are focusing on the battle against Islamic State,
:10:54. > :10:55.to remove them from Raqqa and as I said, the UN is paralysed
:10:56. > :11:01.because of divisions among the permanent members and nobody
:11:02. > :11:06.else is prepared to take action. In fact, the trend seems to be
:11:07. > :11:09.in the direction of not supporting the Syrian rebels,
:11:10. > :11:11.including Turkey and others, they I think for the time being,
:11:12. > :11:19.the Assad government Joining me now from Brussels, where
:11:20. > :11:29.a conference on the reconstruction of Syria has in fact been taking
:11:30. > :11:32.place today, is Assaad Al Achi, a Syrian civil society activist
:11:33. > :11:35.and Executive Director of an NGO which tries to promote democratic
:11:36. > :11:50.change in the country. Good evening to you. Good evening.
:11:51. > :11:54.Who do you think all is the responsibility for what happened?
:11:55. > :11:58.There is only one side in this conflict that has sarin gas and has
:11:59. > :12:03.used it previously and that is the Assad regime, so there is no doubt
:12:04. > :12:08.to us, the chemical attack this morning was the responsibility of
:12:09. > :12:13.the Assad regime. The US Department of State has issued a statement
:12:14. > :12:18.tonight, the Secretary of State says, as a self-proclaimed guarantor
:12:19. > :12:22.to this ceasefire negotiated, Russia and Iran also bear a great moral
:12:23. > :12:26.responsibility for these deaths. Do you think there is any chance that
:12:27. > :12:33.the Americans might begin to take a more proactive position? Reading the
:12:34. > :12:37.different statements that came from the White House and from the
:12:38. > :12:42.Secretary of State, there were strong words of condemnation, but
:12:43. > :12:46.that is as far as it got. Even the issue of accountability was not
:12:47. > :12:53.addressed properly, so we are slightly disappointed that there was
:12:54. > :12:56.not a strong commitment to holding whomever committed this atrocious
:12:57. > :13:00.attack this morning accountable and to ending making sure that these
:13:01. > :13:06.attacks did not happen again and I am not sure that playing on the
:13:07. > :13:10.morality of Russia or Iran will lead anywhere. You might have heard Gary
:13:11. > :13:16.St.Moritz they're saying that there is really no one who can stop Bashar
:13:17. > :13:20.al-Assad. I would believe, as leaders of the free world, I am sure
:13:21. > :13:27.that there is some way they can find a mechanism to stop someone who is
:13:28. > :13:33.perpetrating not only war crimes but also crimes against humanity. The UN
:13:34. > :13:42.Security Council resolution gives them that mechanism and a different
:13:43. > :13:47.resolution, states that if the Syrian government ever uses chemical
:13:48. > :13:50.weapons again, chapter seven sanctions can be imposed
:13:51. > :13:55.automatically, so the only thing we are asking is for the full
:13:56. > :13:59.implementation of the UN Security Council resolutions. You, as a
:14:00. > :14:02.member of the moderate opposition in Syria, you find that you are
:14:03. > :14:09.increasingly being marginalised from the picture, you do not have any
:14:10. > :14:12.purchase? Well, we are still the voice of the victims and the voice
:14:13. > :14:16.of the people and that is what we are trying to elevate, protecting
:14:17. > :14:22.the people of Syria from all sides, all the people of Syria, remains our
:14:23. > :14:25.priority and we will do whatever it takes to make sure that that
:14:26. > :14:29.protection will be provided at one point. Thank you for joining us from
:14:30. > :14:32.Brussels tonight. In what increasingly appears to be
:14:33. > :14:34.one of the longest sagas of all time, former Mayor
:14:35. > :14:37.of London Ken Livingstone was suspended from holding office
:14:38. > :14:39.within the Labour Party tonight for a further year, after claiming
:14:40. > :14:42.that the Nazi leader supported A meeting of the party's
:14:43. > :14:46.National Consitutional Committee found that he had breached
:14:47. > :14:50.the party's rules - he had engaged in conduct
:14:51. > :14:53.that was detrimental to the party. Many expected him to be
:14:54. > :14:55.kicked out entirely. Our political editor, Nick Watt,
:14:56. > :15:07.is here with the details. As she was saying, Labour's national
:15:08. > :15:11.constitutional committee after long the earnings have made this decision
:15:12. > :15:14.that Ken Livingstone broke Labour Party rules and recharges and he has
:15:15. > :15:19.been suspended from standing for public office as a Labour candidate
:15:20. > :15:25.and standing for office within the party. This is a two year suspension
:15:26. > :15:30.but because he has already faced administrative suspension for a
:15:31. > :15:35.year, this will last until the end of April 2018. Ken Livingstone had
:15:36. > :15:39.expected he would be expelled altogether from the Labour Party,
:15:40. > :15:42.but he is facing the lesser sanction, a suspension from holding
:15:43. > :15:46.office, and he suggested this evening that his barrister Michael
:15:47. > :15:52.Mansfield QC had successfully argued that he had not made anti-Semitic
:15:53. > :15:58.remarks. What is the background to this? It dates back to a BBC radio
:15:59. > :16:04.interview to Vanessa Feltz last year, in which he said the Labour MP
:16:05. > :16:08.Naz Shah had been over the top, but not anti-Semitic, when she shared a
:16:09. > :16:14.Facebook page suggesting that Israel should be moved to the US, and she
:16:15. > :16:20.had written, problem solved. Naz Shah shared this post before she
:16:21. > :16:24.became an MP in 2015. In that interview with Vanessa Feltz, Ken
:16:25. > :16:30.Livingstone went on to suggest that Adolf Hitler had supported Zionism
:16:31. > :16:36.because of the home for an agreement of 1933, although he did not say
:16:37. > :16:41.that in that interview, between the Zionist Federation of Germany and
:16:42. > :16:45.the Nazi Germany. And this allowed thousands of German Jews to migrate
:16:46. > :16:51.to the British mandate of Palestine. And it appears that the central
:16:52. > :16:57.defence of Mr Livingstone today was that he was not saying in that
:16:58. > :17:03.interview that Hitler was a Zionist, he was saying that Hitler supported
:17:04. > :17:04.Zionism, and he says those do not amount to anti-Semitic remarks.
:17:05. > :17:06.Thank you very much. Well, Ken Livingstone
:17:07. > :17:08.is here with me. Also here is Labour MP
:17:09. > :17:11.Wes Streeting, who has been critical of both Mr Livingstone
:17:12. > :17:19.and the Labour Party's Good evening, both. Ken Livingstone,
:17:20. > :17:23.you thought you were going to be expelled and you have had a lucky
:17:24. > :17:28.escape. I think that the Labour Party's barrister and lawyer were
:17:29. > :17:32.probably saying to them, if you expelled Ken Livingstone, he goes to
:17:33. > :17:36.judicial review and you have no chance of winning. You can have all
:17:37. > :17:42.sorts of arguments, but I did not say that Hitler was a Zionist.
:17:43. > :17:48.Labour MPs like John Mann said I said Hitler was Zionist, you had Wes
:17:49. > :17:54.Streeting saying I had a problem with anti-Semitism. On the Jewish
:17:55. > :17:57.Chronicle, it said that I said Jews were like novices, this is
:17:58. > :18:03.outrageous. I know that fake news is the big thing. What is it feel like
:18:04. > :18:07.to be in the same party as Ken Livingstone the night, Wes
:18:08. > :18:11.Streeting? We said the Labour Party will take a zero tolerance approach
:18:12. > :18:15.to anti-Semitism and today was an opportunity to demonstrate the live
:18:16. > :18:19.up to that promise and we have blown it, because the Labour Party's
:18:20. > :18:24.process has conceded that Ken has brought the Labour Party into
:18:25. > :18:28.disrepute. They're in mind that the Labour MP he was defending, the
:18:29. > :18:32.remarks he was defending, were accepted by Naz Shah as
:18:33. > :18:37.anti-Semitic. She is a new model of how to respond when you make remarks
:18:38. > :18:40.where you do not understand the impact of your words and you
:18:41. > :18:46.apologise for them come learn from it. She has undertaken to become a
:18:47. > :18:51.leading campaigner in the fight against anti-Semitism. Ken,
:18:52. > :18:55.uninvited, decided to wade into the debate and defend the remarks that
:18:56. > :18:59.she accepted were anti-Semitic, and has brought the Labour Party into
:19:00. > :19:04.disrepute. And he has since displayed a bizarre fascination with
:19:05. > :19:08.a tiny part of World War II history. There is a website counting the
:19:09. > :19:15.number of days since Ken last mentioned Hitler and it comes up on
:19:16. > :19:21.the Labour Party does not take people like Ken seriously. You are
:19:22. > :19:26.no stranger to controversy, Ken Livingstone, and it has been in the
:19:27. > :19:30.past water off a dog's back. You are tainted now and you will not come
:19:31. > :19:34.back in any meaningful way to the Labour Party in any form of office
:19:35. > :19:38.Comedy Works act? When I lost a Boris Johnson in 2012, I made clear
:19:39. > :19:43.that broadly that was the end of my career. I campaign for the Labour
:19:44. > :19:48.Party, but my wife has become a teacher and I am a househusband. Is
:19:49. > :19:53.that it's the end of your political career? I did not look for a seat at
:19:54. > :19:57.the last election and I did not ask for Ed Miliband but in the House of
:19:58. > :20:02.Lords. You have been supportive of Jeremy Corbyn and apparently you
:20:03. > :20:07.have been damaging on the doorstep so you are damaging Jeremy Corbyn. I
:20:08. > :20:11.am not damaging, when I was suspended, I could not walk down the
:20:12. > :20:17.street 400 saying, virtually the first person said, I am a Jewish
:20:18. > :20:23.woman, do not -- do they not read the history? The problem is if you
:20:24. > :20:26.look at the chairman of the board of British Jews giving evidence to the
:20:27. > :20:31.House of Commons, he said for Ken Livingstone to say Hitler was a
:20:32. > :20:37.Zionist was deeply offensive. There was a series of lies and smears but
:20:38. > :20:40.if I said Hitler was a Zionist, it would not just apologise, Edward
:20:41. > :20:49.basque if this was a sign of dementia. He loathed and feared Jews
:20:50. > :20:53.but he did a deal with the Zionists. If they had not moved to Palestine,
:20:54. > :20:57.they would have died in the gas chambers with us. Would this appear
:20:58. > :21:01.to be the end of the matter or not? We are meant to be launching
:21:02. > :21:05.Labour's campaign for local elections today and instead of
:21:06. > :21:09.talking about the big issues, we are talking about Ken's bizarre
:21:10. > :21:13.fascination with the 1930s and it is damaging the Labour Party and its
:21:14. > :21:16.reputation. Ken has form going back to his second term as Mayor of
:21:17. > :21:25.London, whether it was the offensive remarks made to a Jewish reporter at
:21:26. > :21:28.the Evening Standard or suggesting Jews were not voting Labour any more
:21:29. > :21:31.because they had voted -- because they had become wealthy. He has for
:21:32. > :21:35.making remarks that offend the Jewish community and ten years
:21:36. > :21:38.later, his name comes up on the doorstep of my constituency because
:21:39. > :21:43.he brings the Labour Party into disrepute. If you believe the post
:21:44. > :21:47.on your website, why did you as great a campaign for you in the
:21:48. > :21:50.general election? We were walking round your constituency together.
:21:51. > :21:54.You did not come anywhere near my constituency during the general
:21:55. > :21:58.election and you would never be welcome in my constituency. When I
:21:59. > :22:02.stood as a council candidate in 2010, you campaigned for me then,
:22:03. > :22:05.but you are not welcome in my constituency. He would not be
:22:06. > :22:08.welcomed by Jewish voters in my constituency and I will not be drawn
:22:09. > :22:14.into this vendetta you have against me. The point I am making is that
:22:15. > :22:17.your poor judgment, your crass remarks and a lack of apology brings
:22:18. > :22:27.the Labour Party into disrepute. It is losing is votes hand over fist,
:22:28. > :22:31.it is morally wrong. You continue to go ahead unrepentant. 39 Labour MPs
:22:32. > :22:36.that date were tweeting I was anti-Semitic and I should be
:22:37. > :22:44.suspended, I said Hitler was a map -- a Zionist. You created a storm.
:22:45. > :22:47.Can I dost ask, do you accept that you had poor judgment over the way
:22:48. > :22:52.you dealt with this, in the sense you may talk about the fact Jewish
:22:53. > :22:56.people support you, but you have offended a lot of people? Do you
:22:57. > :23:00.accept that and apologise question but if anybody is upset, of course I
:23:01. > :23:04.am sorry. I am not going to apologise for something I did not
:23:05. > :23:09.say, I did not say Hitler was a Zionist. He said he supported
:23:10. > :23:14.Zionism in the 1930s, do you apologise for saying that? I have a
:23:15. > :23:18.Jewish newspaper with an article confirming what I said was true. You
:23:19. > :23:23.have offended certain members of the Jewish community, do you apologise
:23:24. > :23:26.for the offence you have caused? If anybody is upset, I am sorry, but
:23:27. > :23:30.check what I said because I cannot tell you the number of Jewish people
:23:31. > :23:35.who said, we know what you said was true. People are not stupid, we
:23:36. > :23:36.heard what you said and you are damaging the Labour Party. Thank you
:23:37. > :23:39.very much. No-one is ever alone
:23:40. > :23:40.on the internet. You may be familiar with the idea
:23:41. > :23:43.that tech companies are watching your every click,
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:23:46. > :23:47.to empty your bank account. Let us add another nefarious cyber
:23:48. > :23:50.sprite to your nightmares - the bot. At the moment, this is a harmless
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:23:57. > :23:59.is reversed and humans become A study of how bots interact
:24:00. > :24:09.with each other has thrown up some Here's our technology
:24:10. > :24:13.editor, David Grossman. And off goes the aluminium tail,
:24:14. > :24:19.and that is absolutely crucial! Robots battling for supremacy
:24:20. > :24:22.makes a great spectacle. But on the internet,
:24:23. > :24:29.other less dramatic battles are taking place between not
:24:30. > :24:31.robots, but bots. These bots don't have a physical
:24:32. > :24:42.form, just a few hundreds These bots don't have a physical
:24:43. > :24:45.form, just a few hundred They are digital minions,
:24:46. > :24:49.set to work to do a specific task. They're used extensively
:24:50. > :24:51.on Wikipedia to do There is a lot of deadly boring work
:24:52. > :24:55.that we don't want to do. You don't want to check
:24:56. > :24:57.the spelling of every word, the URL or the links of every page,
:24:58. > :25:00.say, in Wikipedia. You don't want to make sure that
:25:01. > :25:03.everything is properly formatted, that the copyright of that
:25:04. > :25:19.picture is correct. That someone has updated one
:25:20. > :25:22.page for another page That is really the work
:25:23. > :25:25.of an enslaved individual, if it had to be done by you or me,
:25:26. > :25:30.so I'm very happy to delegate that to little things called
:25:31. > :25:32.bots that do it for me, But all is not peace
:25:33. > :25:35.and harmony in bot-land. At the Oxford Internet Institute,
:25:36. > :25:37.they've studied how these bots interact and found they often come
:25:38. > :25:40.into conflict, escalating petty disputes into all-out wars
:25:41. > :25:42.that can last years. Particularly on Wikipedia,
:25:43. > :25:44.we did not expect to see lots of conflicts and fights
:25:45. > :25:46.between bots because bots are designed based on the same
:25:47. > :25:49.technology, and are designed based And they have the same goal,
:25:50. > :25:53.and that's to improve So all the ingredients
:25:54. > :25:58.are there to have a very peaceful However, what we observed -
:25:59. > :26:04.and it was the most striking and the most surprising result
:26:05. > :26:06.for us - that we see Bots go to war over trivial pedantry
:26:07. > :26:17.like, what is the correct name A pair of Wikipedia bots -
:26:18. > :26:23.one called Darkness Bot, the other called XQ Bot -
:26:24. > :26:26.went to war over whether this is called Aston Villa
:26:27. > :26:30.or Aston Villa Football Club. Now, outside some high-stakes
:26:31. > :26:32.pub-quiz hell, most humans probably would agree to differ,
:26:33. > :26:37.but a bot can't back down. And the pair did and re-did
:26:38. > :26:40.and undid each other's edits thousands of times over
:26:41. > :26:51.a period of years. Personally, the most surprising
:26:52. > :26:53.thing was to realise that one of the American founding fathers,
:26:54. > :26:59.James Madison, was wrong. He thought that we need law
:27:00. > :27:05.because humans are not all angels. Even when bots are friendly
:27:06. > :27:12.and want to build together, they still need rules,
:27:13. > :27:17.to be able to cooperate. So we realised - or,
:27:18. > :27:19.at least, I realised - that without that kind
:27:20. > :27:23.of infrastructure, there's sort of an infra-ethical perspective, er,
:27:24. > :27:26.even the best of all good wills At the moment, this is just simple
:27:27. > :27:31.bots going to war over petty Wikipedia edits,
:27:32. > :27:33.but do they hint at One academic believes it may
:27:34. > :27:42.already be too late. In AI, we've unleashed
:27:43. > :27:44.a Darwinian replicator, like a digital DNA, that can be
:27:45. > :27:47.copied, can be varied and selections made from those variations,
:27:48. > :27:52.all independently of us. Lots of us tend to think
:27:53. > :27:55.of ourselves as, you know, we humans made all this machinery,
:27:56. > :27:58.therefore we're in control of it. But that's simply not true,
:27:59. > :28:01.once you've let loose this It's all getting on
:28:02. > :28:07.for its own purposes. You know, we're not any longer
:28:08. > :28:12.the creators, controllers, Just as a few fluffy rabbits
:28:13. > :28:19.released on a paradise island may seem harmless enough at first,
:28:20. > :28:22.could this new replicator rapidly overtake our ability
:28:23. > :28:24.to control it, ending up We might end up like
:28:25. > :28:31.the mitochondria in our bodies. You know, they were free-living
:28:32. > :28:34.bacteria that got absorbed into other bacteria and became sort
:28:35. > :28:38.of energy-producing slaves, and they gave up most
:28:39. > :28:40.of their own activities and just live inside other cells
:28:41. > :28:43.and produce energy for them. It's a scary analogy but,
:28:44. > :28:46.potentially, if we don't come to understand things better,
:28:47. > :28:49.the whole thing will explode so much that we will
:28:50. > :28:55.literally be doing that - just producing machinery and energy
:28:56. > :28:58.for the cyber world, which will be evolving way out
:28:59. > :29:02.of our knowledge. For humans, the idea
:29:03. > :29:12.of bots arguing is amusing. These chat bots, designed to talk
:29:13. > :29:15.intelligently to humans, were set up to talk to each other
:29:16. > :29:17.by researchers at They rapidly began
:29:18. > :29:21.squabbling about religion Not everything could
:29:22. > :29:30.also be something. For example, not everything
:29:31. > :29:33.could be half of something, which is still something,
:29:34. > :29:37.and therefore not nothing. So laugh, by all means,
:29:38. > :29:43.but remember, they are getting smarter and more powerful,
:29:44. > :29:45.as we get more dependent How do you like your
:29:46. > :30:04.comic book superhero? Are you stuck in the 1960s
:30:05. > :30:07.with Peter Parker, the amazing - and white - Spiderman,
:30:08. > :30:10.or are you in the 2010s with black, hispanic Miles Morales,
:30:11. > :30:11.the Ultimate Spider Man? At the weekend, Marvel Comics' sales
:30:12. > :30:15.boss seemed to admit that when it came to the company's push
:30:16. > :30:17.to reimagine their A List of comic characters with a modern ethnic
:30:18. > :30:19.and gender diversity, the buying public were
:30:20. > :30:24.turning up their noses. And this is a problem that punches
:30:25. > :30:27.far above its weight, because today's hit Marvel comic
:30:28. > :30:29.is next decade's blockbuster movie. Superheroes have enjoyed
:30:30. > :30:38.their greatest popularity Escapism sells, so Marvel owned
:30:39. > :30:43.by Disney has worked hard at changing the men behind the mask
:30:44. > :30:46.to appeal to millennial fans In 2011, the mixed-race teenager
:30:47. > :30:55.Miles Morales became Spiderman and in 2014,
:30:56. > :30:57.Jane Foster became the latest Thor, and Kamala Khan,
:30:58. > :30:58.a Pakistani American In 2016, 16-year-old Riri Williams,
:30:59. > :31:10.took over the Iron Man But are these reboots driving away
:31:11. > :31:19.the core comic book fans? This weekend, a senior Marvel
:31:20. > :31:21.executive David Gabriel appeared We saw the sales of any
:31:22. > :31:28.character that was diverse, any character that was new,
:31:29. > :31:30.our female characters, anything that was not a core Marvel
:31:31. > :31:32.character, people were turning
:31:33. > :31:36.their nose up against. He rode back after the furore,
:31:37. > :31:39.but the damage was done. In 2014, nine out of ten bestsellers
:31:40. > :31:45.were Marvel superhero comics, but last year, after the major
:31:46. > :31:47.character revamp, Marvel had just three in the top ten,
:31:48. > :31:55.so clearly something is going on. Perhaps this is just
:31:56. > :31:57.about sheer comic numbers, between October 2015 and February
:31:58. > :32:00.this year, Marvel launched an astonishing 104 new titles,
:32:01. > :32:03.so perhaps it is not surprising that But for Marvel, the real money
:32:04. > :32:15.is not in comics any more, Their Luke Cage series on Netflix
:32:16. > :32:20.is pretty much the only example of diversity
:32:21. > :32:22.in the Marvel live-action stable. The question is, will the movies
:32:23. > :32:24.catch up with the comics We asked Marvel for a statement
:32:25. > :32:34.and while they stated that Mr Gabriel had been taken out
:32:35. > :32:37.of context, they did not give Joining me from New York
:32:38. > :32:41.is comic book critic and freelance writer,
:32:42. > :32:45.J A Micheline. Benny Potter, who hosts a popular
:32:46. > :33:00.YouTube channel on comic books, Good evening. Do you think that
:33:01. > :33:06.Marvel does have a problem with diversity? Marvel does have a
:33:07. > :33:10.problem with diversity but not the problem they think they have. The
:33:11. > :33:13.problem they have is literally that they cannot commit to the audience
:33:14. > :33:17.they are trying to build, even in the rhetoric that you seek Mr
:33:18. > :33:21.Gabriel is using in terms of defining them as the core audience
:33:22. > :33:25.or group, that suggest that the people they are marketing to are
:33:26. > :33:30.actually pretty much straight white men but if you are trying to
:33:31. > :33:37.actually expand your audience and bring them different heroes,
:33:38. > :33:39.different people with people of different genders and ethnic groups
:33:40. > :33:42.but you're still marketing to the same people, then you're not really
:33:43. > :33:46.trying. Benny Potter would you accept that Marvel is not really
:33:47. > :33:51.trying to do diversity in a wave that is meaningful and actually
:33:52. > :34:01.comes into the core of the comics? Benny. I actually agree with that. A
:34:02. > :34:04.lot of the new diverse stories in my opinion are really incredible but
:34:05. > :34:08.they just kind of rushed out trying to catch on to the diversity think
:34:09. > :34:12.instead of easing the characters into the old core fan base and I
:34:13. > :34:16.feel they are just backing out too early. Now that they have done it,
:34:17. > :34:22.they are not letting it go all the way through. What about the first
:34:23. > :34:25.Muslim superhero to have her own name? Do you think that she will be
:34:26. > :34:34.a big seller? It does not appear to be so. She is one of the more
:34:35. > :34:38.popular characters, Kamala Khan. Some of her stories are some of the
:34:39. > :34:44.best ones that have been put out in recent years. In that case, what do
:34:45. > :34:48.you think the right strategy should be, given that, by and large, it is
:34:49. > :34:52.not about the comics, it is about the movies to come. They have to bed
:34:53. > :34:56.these things down and what is the best way to go about it? The best
:34:57. > :34:59.way to go about it is to actually commit to building a broader
:35:00. > :35:05.audience and that would be breaking things down to the very basic level.
:35:06. > :35:08.For example, the way the comics are distributed to something called the
:35:09. > :35:11.direct market and the way that works is basically that the only things
:35:12. > :35:14.that count towards sales are the things that matter are the comics
:35:15. > :35:19.that are pre-ordered three months in advance. To you or to a random
:35:20. > :35:24.person who does not know anything about comics, they will say to
:35:25. > :35:27.themselves, I saw the Black Panther movie, how do I get that book? If
:35:28. > :35:31.they went to Waterstones they could buy it trade but would not matter,
:35:32. > :35:35.the only way for it to matter is for them to go to a comic book shop and
:35:36. > :35:40.pre-order the book three months in advance and then their purchase
:35:41. > :35:44.counts. All of these complications pretty much mean that new readers
:35:45. > :35:48.are alienated from the process in terms of having their voices heard
:35:49. > :35:53.and it requires them to go through a kind of system that is traditionally
:35:54. > :35:59.alienating traditional white males to begin with. Talking about a more
:36:00. > :36:02.traditional view, does it matter if people prefer Captain America, does
:36:03. > :36:09.that matter if they are buying comics in sufficient numbers? I am
:36:10. > :36:13.sorry, I miss the question. On the question of what you might say is
:36:14. > :36:17.the traditional old-fashioned white male audience, does it matter if
:36:18. > :36:25.what they want is captain America if Captain America creates big sales?
:36:26. > :36:29.It does not really matter if they want Captain America, I don't think
:36:30. > :36:33.I understand that as a question. Are you saying the people want to go out
:36:34. > :36:37.and buy it? If you have a white Captain America and people buy that,
:36:38. > :36:43.that does not matter, it is not just about diversity, it is about what
:36:44. > :36:48.sells Marvel Comics? Yes, and that is part of the issue, the books need
:36:49. > :36:51.to sell and in my opinion, they did not ease the audience into a lot of
:36:52. > :36:55.these characters, instead of going through a period with the legacy
:36:56. > :37:01.characters train these new individuals, they just tried to be
:37:02. > :37:10.like, the comic book is coming out in three months. The thing is that
:37:11. > :37:13.Marvel Comics launched 104 comics last year and one quarter failed, it
:37:14. > :37:17.is all about the sale models and of the cell model does not work, then
:37:18. > :37:23.you're not going to have this variety of characters, are you? It
:37:24. > :37:27.is a question of what you mean by if the sales are not working. Charles
:37:28. > :37:32.Paul Hoffman did some great journalism in terms of looking at
:37:33. > :37:36.the actual numbers and he basically found that even out of the top ten
:37:37. > :37:40.selling Marvel Comics, only three of them are what you would actually
:37:41. > :37:44.consider diversity which is really just characters that are
:37:45. > :37:50.marginalised people. The rest of them are your standard white male
:37:51. > :37:53.characters and those are the ones that have seen the lowest sales in
:37:54. > :37:54.terms of the biggest drops. I did both very much indeed.
:37:55. > :37:56.Now, Viewsnight - our regular chance to voice
:37:57. > :37:58.often difficult and - to some - unpalatable thoughts.
:37:59. > :38:00.Tonight, the Israeli historian Yuval Noah Harari argues that
:38:01. > :38:16.Fearmongers are more dangerous than terrorists.
:38:17. > :38:17.Since 2000, terrorists have killed fewer than
:38:18. > :38:23.During the same period, obesity-related diseases killed
:38:24. > :38:30.So why do we fear terrorists more than we fear fried bacon?
:38:31. > :38:37.Terrorists stage a frightening spectacle of violence that
:38:38. > :38:42.captures our imagination and turns it against us.
:38:43. > :38:45.Terrorists kill a handful of people and cause millions
:38:46. > :38:52.In order to calm these fears, governments react with a show
:38:53. > :38:54.of security, orchestrating immense displays of force, such
:38:55. > :38:58.as the persecution of entire populations or the invasion
:38:59. > :39:05.Usually it is this overreaction to terrorism that threatens
:39:06. > :39:11.the peace of the world, more than the terrorists themselves.
:39:12. > :39:15.Terrorists are like a fly that tries to destroy a china shop.
:39:16. > :39:20.The fly is so weak, it cannot move even a single teacup.
:39:21. > :39:25.So the fly finds a bull, gets inside its ear and starts buzzing.
:39:26. > :39:27.The bull goes wild, with anger and fear and destroys
:39:28. > :39:34.This is what happened in the Middle East after 9/11.
:39:35. > :39:36.Islamic fundamentalists incited the United States to destroy
:39:37. > :39:44.Now, they flourish in the wreckage and there is no lack of short
:39:45. > :39:51.The success or failure of terrorism really depends on us.
:39:52. > :39:55.If we allow the terrorists to capture our imagination and then
:39:56. > :39:57.react to our own fears, terrorism will succeed.
:39:58. > :39:59.If we free our imagination from the terrorists and react
:40:00. > :40:13.in a balanced and cool way, terrorism will fail.
:40:14. > :40:17.A lot of flashing images follow now, as we leave you at the University
:40:18. > :40:20.of Tokyo, where they know a thing or two about cameras and projectors.
:40:21. > :40:23.A group there have built an image projector that can do
:40:24. > :40:25.a thousand frames per second, with ultra high speed tracking
:40:26. > :40:32.What on earth does that matter or even mean?
:40:33. > :40:34.Well perhaps a demonstration from Japan's Ayabambi dancers will help.
:40:35. > :40:37.Remember, this system is tracking the dancers' faces and projecting
:40:38. > :40:40.images onto them live and in real life - it's not a special effect.
:40:41. > :41:57.Hello there. It looks like it will be a chilly start for southernmost
:41:58. > :42:02.counties but at least we will see some sunshine. Make the most of it,
:42:03. > :42:04.it will cloud over from the north. There will be very little