:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight: the White House leaves open the possibility to more
:00:07. > :00:15.The message that we are sending to the Russians is very clear.
:00:16. > :00:17.Do they want to stick with a toxic regime?
:00:18. > :00:20.Do they want to be eternally associated with a guy
:00:21. > :00:28.But a former ambassador to Syria thinks regime change
:00:29. > :00:31.This advisor to the Syrian opposition says
:00:32. > :00:44.Also tonight...It's called Spice - an illegal drug that, it is claimed,
:00:45. > :00:58.Can you imagine, if you slept rough, you wake up and you feel like shit
:00:59. > :01:01.and you wake up and you smoke some Spice
:01:02. > :01:03.and you are OK, you're ready to go, you know?
:01:04. > :01:05.Howard Jacobson writes a book about Donald Trump.
:01:06. > :01:10.And I wanted to be amused by it all and then you realise
:01:11. > :01:13.the absurdity is only going to take you so far.
:01:14. > :01:26.And remember the gay 93 year old who last year got an official
:01:27. > :01:29.pardon for what were ONCE crimes of indecency, but aren't any more.
:01:30. > :01:32.If I get the apology, I don't need a pardon.
:01:33. > :01:34.I don't mind in the least, I just want an apology.
:01:35. > :01:42.Well now he's got his apology, how does he fell about it.
:01:43. > :01:53.Does Russia listen to anything the West says?
:01:54. > :01:56.And can we tighten the screws when it comes to making
:01:57. > :02:00.Previous sanctions have hurt Russia economically -
:02:01. > :02:03.but haven't led to any softening of its stance on Crimea.
:02:04. > :02:09.So can we expect anything new when G7 countries gather
:02:10. > :02:12.in Italy to discuss new punishment for its role in Syria?
:02:13. > :02:14.Today, our Foreign Secretary laid down a Boris-shaped gauntlet,
:02:15. > :02:16.saying Russia had a choice - to continue backing toxic Assad
:02:17. > :02:19.or to work with the rest of the world to find
:02:20. > :02:24.He's talking moves to ban Syrian or Russian military figures.
:02:25. > :02:42.At the group of seven meetings this week, it is the eighth former member
:02:43. > :02:47.of that club that is topping the agenda. Russia PTP continues proper
:02:48. > :02:50.Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian brittle leaders means further sanctions are
:02:51. > :02:55.now on the table for Moscow. The message that we are sending to the
:02:56. > :03:01.Russians is clear. Do they want to stick with a toxic regime. Do they
:03:02. > :03:09.want to be eternally associated with a guy who gases his own people or do
:03:10. > :03:11.they want to work with the Americans and the rest of the G-7 and indeed
:03:12. > :03:16.like-minded countries? Sanctions would hardly be unprecedented. The
:03:17. > :03:21.US and EU impose sanctions on Russia following the invasion of Ukraine in
:03:22. > :03:26.2014. Throughout we have given Vladimir Putin a simple choice.
:03:27. > :03:31.Respect the sovereignty of Ukraine or face increasing consequences.
:03:32. > :03:39.That has allowed us to rally the world's major developed countries to
:03:40. > :03:44.impose real costs on Russia. So did it work? Well, Russia suffered. This
:03:45. > :03:48.is gross national income per head for Russia are measured in US
:03:49. > :03:54.dollars. Since the millennium, it generally moved up, hitting a peak
:03:55. > :04:00.of almost $15,000 a person in 2014. When the sanctions came in, it
:04:01. > :04:06.dropped dramatically to around $11,500 per person. A fall in oil
:04:07. > :04:11.prices contributed to that as well leading to a squeeze on ordinary
:04:12. > :04:14.Russians who had to cut their own spending by 15%. The Russian
:04:15. > :04:19.government estimated that the number of Russians living in poverty had
:04:20. > :04:25.been stable at around 16 million people in 2014. It now stands at
:04:26. > :04:32.over 21 million people. That is a price that Mr Putin has been willing
:04:33. > :04:36.to pay. In the long run, isolation, the isolation of Russia is not going
:04:37. > :04:40.to help, but in the short run he is certainly willing to pay the price
:04:41. > :04:44.and for the Russian people who have been traumatised so much by the
:04:45. > :04:47.Soviet system and then by the chaos of the 1990s, they are willing to
:04:48. > :04:52.put up with more hardships than we are. Sanctions are not currently
:04:53. > :05:01.biting Russia as deeply as the first aid. The insurrection of the Russian
:05:02. > :05:06.economy on western sanctions was very big and the Russian financial
:05:07. > :05:10.markets were in turmoil because the Russian economy faced significant
:05:11. > :05:15.pressure to repay foreign debt and banks and companies were committed
:05:16. > :05:20.abroad. Afterwards, the attitude softened and oil prices have
:05:21. > :05:27.recovered and no new signals on sanctions and then in 2016, the
:05:28. > :05:32.Russian economy contracted by not point to I do not see any effect of
:05:33. > :05:36.sanctions of the current situation. When some Britons, particularly
:05:37. > :05:40.Londoners think about Russians, they might think of rich immigrants who
:05:41. > :05:43.come and put huge amounts of money into some of our swankiest
:05:44. > :05:46.neighbourhoods or or you might think of the military might of Russia, the
:05:47. > :05:54.nuclear arsenal, the intervention for example into Syria. The truth is
:05:55. > :05:59.that Russia is a country with very profound social and economic
:06:00. > :06:05.problems. The biggest problem in the Russian economy is its complete lack
:06:06. > :06:10.of rule of law, corruption throughout the entire system that
:06:11. > :06:14.chokes all innovation. Its overreliance on raw materials,
:06:15. > :06:20.especially hydrocarbons, dire demographic decline, the effect of
:06:21. > :06:25.sanctions that have contributed to the decline of the Russian economy
:06:26. > :06:29.and lastly Russia's growing isolation in the view of the
:06:30. > :06:32.aggressive foreign policy posture by Vladimir Putin. There are sanctions
:06:33. > :06:38.that could apply pressure, on finance, learn investment on Russia,
:06:39. > :06:45.all is critical oil and gas sector. Might the West actually managed to
:06:46. > :06:50.do that as it did to Iran? IC zero chances of this happening, because
:06:51. > :06:54.there is no political will in them worse, there is a transitional
:06:55. > :07:00.period in the US administration and Brexit in the European Union, so
:07:01. > :07:06.will Russia and Ukraine in my view our out of plans at the moment. In
:07:07. > :07:12.reply to those 2014 sanctions, Vladimir Putin and EU food imports
:07:13. > :07:14.and act which hurt his own people by fuelling inflation. A man who
:07:15. > :07:16.effectively sanctioned his own people for effect is a hard man to
:07:17. > :07:20.beat with sanctions. Chris Kirk. Earlier I spoke to President Trump's
:07:21. > :07:22.former adviser Did he agree with Boris Johnson's
:07:23. > :07:26.assessment that the bombing of Syria Well basically there are now two red
:07:27. > :07:30.lines in the making, one for the United States for this
:07:31. > :07:33.administration, which is to forbid the use of chemical weapons
:07:34. > :07:36.by the Syrian regime or by any other player, that is one red line but now
:07:37. > :07:39.you have the Russians and the Iranians and their allies
:07:40. > :07:42.who are drawing a red line So they are messaging
:07:43. > :07:53.the United States that you may have had this one strike against Assad
:07:54. > :07:55.because of the chemical weapons, but there is no acceptance that
:07:56. > :07:58.you will topple the regime and I think in the negotiations that
:07:59. > :08:01.will be taking place between Secretary Tillerson
:08:02. > :08:03.and Moscow will be revolving Boris Johnson has called
:08:04. > :08:12.this willingness to bomb Syria a game-changer,
:08:13. > :08:15.do you think it is? I think the game is changing,
:08:16. > :08:18.it started to change when for some unknown reason,
:08:19. > :08:21.out of nowhere, the Assad regime allegedly used
:08:22. > :08:22.those chemical weapons, although he has been
:08:23. > :08:28.bombarding the Syrian opposition for a long time,
:08:29. > :08:30.most of the people killed were not killed by the chemical weapons,
:08:31. > :08:33.it is still intriguing to learn why By using them, unlike in the time
:08:34. > :08:39.of the Obama administration, the Trump administration
:08:40. > :08:41.will actually act, but act only to respond to the use
:08:42. > :08:45.of chemical weapons. There is no project of toppling
:08:46. > :08:48.Assad as far as I know right He has called for sanctions though,
:08:49. > :08:52.against Russia over actions There are talks now across
:08:53. > :08:58.the Atlantic about what is the next stage of how to deal with Russia
:08:59. > :09:02.and really there are two doctrines here, one which says,
:09:03. > :09:04.we need to put some sanctions and force Russia into changing
:09:05. > :09:06.behaviour and changing There is this other view,
:09:07. > :09:15.which is we now act in eastern Syria to destroy ISIS and develop a free
:09:16. > :09:20.Syria. Then we put pressure on Russia
:09:21. > :09:23.because if we put pressure on Russia and we do not have any part of Syria
:09:24. > :09:27.where we can act, then But the US position now,
:09:28. > :09:31.just clarify for us, the US administration believes that
:09:32. > :09:36.Assad must go? In the long term, it was not
:09:37. > :09:39.actually said, in the long term, what was said, by several officials
:09:40. > :09:42.is that the future of Syria after the crisis will not have
:09:43. > :09:48.Assad as a President. That is what was said,
:09:49. > :09:51.but that does not mean immediately there will be US action to unseat
:09:52. > :09:54.Assad. This is the problem isn't it,
:09:55. > :09:56.that we are talking about long-term or short-term
:09:57. > :09:58.or in the intermediate, people are struggling to work out
:09:59. > :10:01.what Donald Trump 's foreign policy Has he turned into a humanitarian,
:10:02. > :10:06.is he going to get involved in foreign policy, is he ditching
:10:07. > :10:12.the America First, where is he now? Basically he is involved
:10:13. > :10:16.fully in foreign policy. These were the questions that
:10:17. > :10:18.were debated during the campaign when he was not yet
:10:19. > :10:21.in the White House and let's say during the transition,
:10:22. > :10:24.maybe in the first two to three weeks, now he is the President
:10:25. > :10:26.of a superpower, and he Of course not all of the plans
:10:27. > :10:33.are already established, in the case of Syria,
:10:34. > :10:35.what prompted this action, was not his plan, it was prompted
:10:36. > :10:39.by the Assad regime behaviour. Now I think, he and Congress
:10:40. > :10:43.will have to figure out a strategy for Syria for the immediate range
:10:44. > :10:45.and also for the medium So is part of the strategy also
:10:46. > :10:52.being noticeably harder on Russia? Well, there was a view
:10:53. > :10:54.during the campaign and during the transition
:10:55. > :10:57.that we may find a common ground with Russia against the terrorists,
:10:58. > :10:59.although we have many Now the incident in Syria has
:11:00. > :11:07.occurred, the Trump administration will have to signify,
:11:08. > :11:09.and message even Russia, that the use of chemical weapons
:11:10. > :11:12.is forbidden and at the same time we need to continue
:11:13. > :11:18.our job against ISIS. The remaining question is what will
:11:19. > :11:20.Russia do in the meanwhile? We have heard them saying with
:11:21. > :11:27.the Iranians that they would not want to see the United States
:11:28. > :11:29.acting against Assad. Donald Trump has said in the past
:11:30. > :11:33.that presidents who enter into foreign policy wars
:11:34. > :11:35.are normally doing it to distract People are pointing the finger
:11:36. > :11:41.at him now and are saying that is exactly what you're doing,
:11:42. > :11:43.this is all a distraction. Obviously, the opposition is going
:11:44. > :11:46.to use all the arguments they can, including arguments from statements
:11:47. > :11:50.that he made. Look at the Clintons,
:11:51. > :11:54.the Obama side, how many statements they made during the campaign,
:11:55. > :11:56.that were used against them during the campaign and even now,
:11:57. > :11:59.so that is the nature of American politics, but again the public
:12:00. > :12:02.will judge upon what has been done on the ground in reality
:12:03. > :12:05.and on the ground in reality in Syria, there is one path right
:12:06. > :12:08.now, destroying ISIS and making sure that the future of Syria will
:12:09. > :12:10.represent what the Syrians want, which are the statements made
:12:11. > :12:13.by Rex Tillerson and the President Walid Phares, thank
:12:14. > :12:25.you very much indeed. The strikes against Syria
:12:26. > :12:27.by the Trump administration appeared - politically -
:12:28. > :12:29.to come from nowhere . But tonight the White House
:12:30. > :12:32.acknowledged it is holding open America said this evening
:12:33. > :12:35.they knocked out 20 percent And tonight Trump's spokesman
:12:36. > :12:43.said it was impossible to imagine a 'stable Syria
:12:44. > :12:47.with Assad in charge'. So what does the policy
:12:48. > :12:50.for Syria now look like? The question the world has been
:12:51. > :12:54.grappling with for years We'll discuss in a moment,
:12:55. > :12:58.but first - a reminder of how US policy has shifted on the Syrian
:12:59. > :13:01.leader through these two statements just days apart from the White House
:13:02. > :13:15.spokesman Sean Spicer and America's Can you clear up for the President
:13:16. > :13:20.stands on whether Bashar al-Assad is the legitimate President of Syria? I
:13:21. > :13:28.think with respect to Assad, there is a political reality that we have
:13:29. > :13:33.to accept in terms of where we are, right now. There is not any sort of
:13:34. > :13:37.option where a political solution that will happen with Assad at the
:13:38. > :13:41.head of the regime. A few look at the situation, it will be hard to
:13:42. > :13:43.see a peaceful and stable government with Assad.
:13:44. > :13:45.Peter Ford was Britain's ambassador to Syria from 2003 until 2006.
:13:46. > :13:48.Reza Afshar led the Foreign Office's Syria team until 2013 and now
:13:49. > :14:05.Thank you to you both. Peter Ford, it is a dwindling group now who's
:14:06. > :14:11.still think Bashar al-Assad is the solution to Syria. You do. Yes,
:14:12. > :14:19.because he already controls about 80% of the populated areas and after
:14:20. > :14:24.his success in Aleppo, he was well on course until this latest
:14:25. > :14:32.extraction, to mocking up many of the remaining pockets of opposition.
:14:33. > :14:37.Sadly, Trump has created this diversion and has set back efforts
:14:38. > :14:43.to pacify the rest of Syria, but basically what is left is a rural
:14:44. > :14:45.insurgency. The towns belong to Assad already and this is where most
:14:46. > :14:55.of the people are. You describe it as a distraction and
:14:56. > :15:02.a diversion to stop aside using chemical weapons on his people? You
:15:03. > :15:05.assume that he did, aren't you a bit premature? There has been no
:15:06. > :15:11.investigation. It is crucial that there should be an impartial UN
:15:12. > :15:18.investigation? Why are the Americans so reticent about having an
:15:19. > :15:21.investigation if there is nothing to hide on their side? We have not even
:15:22. > :15:30.seen not a dodgy dossier, we have not seen any dossier this time. This
:15:31. > :15:36.is Theresa May's Tony Blair moment. This is her Blair moment, her chance
:15:37. > :15:44.to urge restraint on the Americans and not egg them on to more
:15:45. > :15:48.foolishness. Reza Afshar? I think the problem here is your other guest
:15:49. > :15:53.is distracting from the facts in Syria and what has been going on.
:15:54. > :15:59.The reality is the Assad regime has bombed 500,000 people to death, he
:16:00. > :16:09.has used weapons. On a point of fact, that is not correct. The
:16:10. > :16:14.action that he has taken has created the environment in which terrorism
:16:15. > :16:19.can thrive, it has also created environment in which refugees have
:16:20. > :16:23.fled the country. The question now is not about redeemed change, the
:16:24. > :16:27.question is what is a sensible policy about creating a situation in
:16:28. > :16:35.which Syrians themselves can decide their future through negotiation
:16:36. > :16:37.process? They are asking for a regime change, they are asking for
:16:38. > :16:40.an opportunity to negotiate their own future. The first step is to cut
:16:41. > :16:43.out the indiscriminate killing of civilians which has essentially
:16:44. > :16:49.created this crisis, which has created a big crisis for the world.
:16:50. > :16:53.So actually... What the US administration has done here is
:16:54. > :16:58.finally to put some beverage on the table in the form of strikes. If
:16:59. > :17:02.they turn that into a broader strategy which says if you kill
:17:03. > :17:10.civilians indiscriminately, chemical weapons or otherwise, we will strike
:17:11. > :17:12.military facilities, then that creates a process in which the
:17:13. > :17:15.military strategy of the regime becomes limited and that forces them
:17:16. > :17:19.to have to decide whether they want to negotiate in the Geneva talks or
:17:20. > :17:26.elsewhere. That is a sensible policy. Let me go back to Peter. It
:17:27. > :17:30.is hard to see how Syria can be more dangerous to Syrians? I went through
:17:31. > :17:33.that question but allow me first to take Reza up on his earlier
:17:34. > :17:42.statement about 500,000 killed by Assad. That is one quarter true and
:17:43. > :17:48.three quarters alive. The UN are saying 400,000 killed. This is
:17:49. > :17:52.typical of the distortion, exaggeration of paid lobbyists,
:17:53. > :17:55.which is what we're hearing now. I don't think those people are arguing
:17:56. > :18:00.the fact that there is a civil war which has been going on with the
:18:01. > :18:06.deaths of absolutely hundreds of thousands of civilians in Syria. The
:18:07. > :18:13.question is... On both sides. Why does Assad have to stay? Because he
:18:14. > :18:19.be goes, Emily, the country will really implode and it will be a
:18:20. > :18:24.bloodbath. There is no moderate opposition waiting. And it is not a
:18:25. > :18:29.bloodbath now? You say that is OK? Of course not. But it would be much
:18:30. > :18:34.worse. You have to look at the opposition held areas to see what
:18:35. > :18:41.life would be like. What happens if there is no Assad, who is next? I am
:18:42. > :18:45.not talking about getting rid of Assad. The point is how to enable
:18:46. > :18:50.Syrians to determine their own future? How do you force the Assad
:18:51. > :18:54.regime to negotiate seriously? They have not negotiated seriously up
:18:55. > :18:58.until now. That is because they think their military strategy will
:18:59. > :19:01.win. You need a political and military strategy to bring this
:19:02. > :19:06.crisis to close and that is how you will make progress against Isis in a
:19:07. > :19:13.sustainable fashion, it is also how you will deal with the refugee
:19:14. > :19:15.crisis. You need the political elements and the military elements.
:19:16. > :19:19.The military elements are underway. How will you suddenly have this
:19:20. > :19:24.consensus that Assad will agree to which he has not done for the last
:19:25. > :19:28.six years, while he is there? The reason he has not negotiated
:19:29. > :19:32.seriously, in the UN led talks in Geneva, is because he has a military
:19:33. > :19:36.strategy which involves killing civilians indiscriminately and that
:19:37. > :19:39.has been his way to deal with the crisis. What needs to happen is the
:19:40. > :19:50.whole context has to change here and he needs to see that his military
:19:51. > :19:52.strategy would work. Then you see how the big O Shea Shinn 's progress
:19:53. > :19:55.under that framework, when you are sitting in Geneva and when you try
:19:56. > :19:58.and bomb your way out of it, you can't, because the US then hits your
:19:59. > :20:03.military targets. That is a way of forcing a negotiation to happen in a
:20:04. > :20:06.more productive way. Reza, when working with the British Foreign
:20:07. > :20:11.Office, was instrumental in bringing about the Nato bombing of Libya. Are
:20:12. > :20:16.you proud of that? Do you think it is a good example for Syria? The
:20:17. > :20:21.alternative there is to allow the Libyan regime to kill tens of
:20:22. > :20:24.thousands of people? The question is is Libya worse now would it be
:20:25. > :20:28.better turning the way Syria did? In any case we are talking about what
:20:29. > :20:33.the strategy should be in Syria, and again, no one is calling for regime
:20:34. > :20:36.change, they are talking targeted, limited strikes in order to deter
:20:37. > :20:42.the killing of civilians and for that to go hand-in-hand with a
:20:43. > :20:46.political strategy. I know it depends which side of the bed Trump
:20:47. > :20:54.got out on on a particular day, but broadly they are calling for resume
:20:55. > :20:59.change... Do you not recognise that if you divert away from Isis, as
:21:00. > :21:03.your main target here, then actually, that side of the wall gets
:21:04. > :21:09.lost and that is the most immediate priority? Emily, governments are
:21:10. > :21:15.capable of doing two things at once. Not in the same place to people on
:21:16. > :21:19.different sides? Actually, they are. No one is talking that diverted away
:21:20. > :21:22.from Isis. What we are saying is if you stop the killing of civilians in
:21:23. > :21:27.Syria, you then help the fight against Isis, because you get rid of
:21:28. > :21:31.a radicalised factor. You also enable the moderate groups on the
:21:32. > :21:34.ground, and there are still moderate groups on the ground, to fight Isis
:21:35. > :21:39.more effectively, and they cannot do that now while they are being bombed
:21:40. > :21:42.by their own government. There needs to be a comprehensive approach here.
:21:43. > :21:45.Thank you both. Thank you for coming in.
:21:46. > :21:47.Spice is the drug that turns people into zombies,
:21:48. > :21:52.And it's being treated as a major problem in some
:21:53. > :21:56.Nearly 60 cases of Spice related incidents were reported to police
:21:57. > :21:58.in Greater Manchester over the course of the weekend.
:21:59. > :22:01.So is it actually getting worse - or does the epidemic
:22:02. > :22:10.Katie Razzall has been with Spice users to ask.
:22:11. > :22:12.Mamba is the worst drug out, worse than class A.
:22:13. > :22:16.Psychotic zombie-rendering Spice, of which Mamba is a variety,
:22:17. > :22:20.the synthetic drug which Manchester police have described as a problem
:22:21. > :22:28.This weekend, they dealt with 58 Spice related incidents,
:22:29. > :22:31.but the drug's reach is much wider than Manchester.
:22:32. > :22:34.I haven't had it for three days and I've had night sweats,
:22:35. > :22:39.pains in my side, can't sleep, can't go to the toilet.
:22:40. > :22:45.The woman was filmed with other drug users in Wolverhampton,
:22:46. > :22:49.before the government cracked down again on so-called legal highs
:22:50. > :23:01.and banned their sale on the High Street.
:23:02. > :23:04.So what do we know about the prevalence of a drug that locks
:23:05. > :23:06.onto the same receptors in the brain is cannabis,
:23:07. > :23:12.If you're talking about how many people smoke Spice,
:23:13. > :23:20.Before May last year, it was legal, or a lot of it was legal,
:23:21. > :23:27.so there wasn't much counting going on.
:23:28. > :23:29.And other than to say, there are clearly pockets of use
:23:30. > :23:33.in major cities all over the UK, and in our prisons, you can't really
:23:34. > :23:48.A recent Panorama investigation into the chaotic state of prisons
:23:49. > :23:56.found many of the problems Spice-related.
:23:57. > :23:58.This shocking footage shows the effects of the drug
:23:59. > :24:02.on one of the inmates in HMP Northumberland.
:24:03. > :24:16.You can buy Spice, you can dissolve the active ingredient in water,
:24:17. > :24:20.you can soak an A4 sheet of paper in that active ingredient and dry it
:24:21. > :24:26.out, you can pretend it's a letter to yourself or a prisoner,
:24:27. > :24:32.and you can cut up that A4 sheet of paper and that will go from maybe
:24:33. > :24:35.?5 worth of Spice to a thousand pounds worth of pieces of Spice
:24:36. > :24:39.So there's an enormous profit in prisons.
:24:40. > :24:42.Bristol prison, every day, an ambulance full of big male
:24:43. > :24:46.paramedics goes in to deal with someone who's gone crazy
:24:47. > :24:53.Spice users outside prison, the majority rough sleepers,
:24:54. > :24:55.also put pressure on public services, according
:24:56. > :24:58.to Greater Manchester Police, with users often aggressive
:24:59. > :25:00.and a danger to themselves and others.
:25:01. > :25:04.Ambulance call-outs and NHS treatment can be costly.
:25:05. > :25:06.And in cities across the UK, even in the heart of
:25:07. > :25:09.London's Westminster, under the noses of those
:25:10. > :25:13.who made the drug illegal, the effects are obvious.
:25:14. > :25:34.He's homeless and spending ?5 a time for a cigarette worth's of Spice,
:25:35. > :25:44.the same used to cost around ?2 he says.
:25:45. > :25:46.What does it make you feel like when you#re on it?
:25:47. > :25:54.So you were on the streets, and you realised everyone was doing
:25:55. > :25:56.it, so that's how you got involved in the Spice?
:25:57. > :26:01.Can you imagine if you slept rough, you woke up and you feel shit,
:26:02. > :26:04.then you take some Spice and you're OK, ready to go.
:26:05. > :26:07.If it was going to become popular, it would have happened
:26:08. > :26:16.And by popular, I mean among young people, people who go to festivals,
:26:17. > :26:28.It's only ever really been a drug adopted by prisoners and rough
:26:29. > :26:33.sleepers. For the moment then this drug
:26:34. > :26:36.is used almost entirely by prison inmates and rough sleepers,
:26:37. > :26:39.but they're often doing it in plain sight, and Spice's psychological
:26:40. > :26:41.and physiological effects on them mean in places like central
:26:42. > :26:42.Manchester, its impact is being felt
:26:43. > :26:44.far more widely. If you're going to write
:26:45. > :26:47.a novel about Donald Trump, Howard Jacobson explains to me -
:26:48. > :26:49.there's really only And so, this Thursday will see
:26:50. > :26:53.the publication of Pussy - his turbo-charged satire of the man
:26:54. > :26:56.who won the US Presidency. It is part comic pastiche,
:26:57. > :26:58.part venomous diatribe on a man Jacobson describes as vacuous,
:26:59. > :27:00.absurd and dangerous. A man who spurred him on to write
:27:01. > :27:03.quickly as he feared Trump would be shot or impeached
:27:04. > :27:05.before he finished. I met him at his house earlier,
:27:06. > :27:08.where I asked him why he'd chosen such a naked,
:27:09. > :27:12.raw form of satire for his work. And there was, there was a kind
:27:13. > :27:23.of the absurdity of the whole thing, in my eyes, the total absurdity
:27:24. > :27:26.of the man. I had never seen anybody,
:27:27. > :27:29.it seemed to me, quite so absurd. And then you realise, well,
:27:30. > :27:32.you know, the absurdity This is somebody who wields enormous
:27:33. > :27:38.power, so then there's rage. How do you balance the rage
:27:39. > :27:41.and the sense of comedy? And you feel it
:27:42. > :27:44.differently every day. You feel it differently
:27:45. > :27:47.within an hour. So I had to come up with some tale
:27:48. > :27:52.that enabled me to be funny and not funny and furious
:27:53. > :27:54.and the rest of it. So it had to be some kind
:27:55. > :27:57.of fairy tale, borrowing And you describe this leader
:27:58. > :28:11.who is imbecillic or absurd, in your words, yet he is the product
:28:12. > :28:14.of a democratic system that has lasted what,
:28:15. > :28:16.300 years or more? Do not feel you are railing
:28:17. > :28:18.against the wrong thing here? He is the product of a system that
:28:19. > :28:22.has lasted a long time and he might last a long time and everything
:28:23. > :28:24.might be well. Do you think democracy
:28:25. > :28:28.got this wrong then? Between ourselves, if nobody
:28:29. > :28:34.is listening, I'd like to say democracy gets a hell
:28:35. > :28:36.of a lot wrong. Part of my anger in writing this
:28:37. > :28:43.book was fuelled by Brexit. I was starting to hear all that
:28:44. > :28:46.stuff, any time anybody looked back at Brexit and didn't
:28:47. > :28:48.like what they had seen, they were a Remoaner,
:28:49. > :28:56.there was all that bitterness stuff, that get over it stuff as though
:28:57. > :29:00.you are obliged to get over it. And you cannot deny
:29:01. > :29:02.the will of the people. Well, that's not true,
:29:03. > :29:05.you can deny the will of the people, and indeed, if you believe
:29:06. > :29:08.that the will of the people has taken you into a disastrous
:29:09. > :29:10.situation, it is your positive duty But we have this fantasy going on,
:29:11. > :29:14.the people have spoken But the people speak whenever
:29:15. > :29:17.there's a general election And if democracy is to work,
:29:18. > :29:21.the people have to be given the opportunity
:29:22. > :29:23.to change their mind. Are you suggesting that the people
:29:24. > :29:26.shouldn't have voted that way because they didn't know
:29:27. > :29:33.what they were doing? I'm suggesting that I think
:29:34. > :29:35.that they voted the wrong way, I'm suggesting that I think
:29:36. > :29:37.they were ill-informed and misinformed, and I'm also highly
:29:38. > :29:40.conscious of the fact that you're not allowed to be
:29:41. > :29:42.rude to the people. They are a sacred entity,
:29:43. > :29:44.the people are sacrosanct. Well, nothing should be sacrosanct
:29:45. > :29:47.and I think that if you have voted for Donald Trump,
:29:48. > :29:50.I don't care what your reasoning is, to have voted for a man offering
:29:51. > :29:53.such a meagre, meagre view of the world, with so few words
:29:54. > :29:55.to describe the world, or to imagine the world,
:29:56. > :29:57.and imprisoned in this minuscule vocabulary,
:29:58. > :29:59.because if you've got no vocabulary, you've got no thoughts,
:30:00. > :30:02.to have voted for such a person Some people watching this will say
:30:03. > :30:07.wow, he's fallen into that classic liberal trap,
:30:08. > :30:09.they only like democracy when their people win,
:30:10. > :30:11.they only like tolerance and decency Democracy works best
:30:12. > :30:20.when I think the people, the demos are making
:30:21. > :30:21.the right decisions. And is it the language question that
:30:22. > :30:27.offends you the most? And is that because you're a writer
:30:28. > :30:30.or because you think that lies I think it lies at the heart
:30:31. > :30:40.of civilisation, and I want to be clear, that I'm not complaining that
:30:41. > :30:44.Trump is not an orator or a poet, that he doesn't speak beautifully,
:30:45. > :30:46.that's not the issue. The issue is how words free one
:30:47. > :30:50.into thought and how language frees one out of prejudice and bias
:30:51. > :30:53.and a narrowness of viewpoint which is no good for anybody
:30:54. > :30:59.to be locked in. This isn't someone from a university
:31:00. > :31:02.complaining about the fact that Trump doesn't speak
:31:03. > :31:06.like a university lecturer, but do you remember he once said,
:31:07. > :31:10.I think it was at a Nevada rally, It didn't mean, even though you're
:31:11. > :31:18.not educated I love you, and what I will then try to do
:31:19. > :31:21.in my years as president He loved the state
:31:22. > :31:24.of uneducatedness. At the moment it is part of the way
:31:25. > :31:29.populism is going at the moment, that you turn the people,
:31:30. > :31:31.that you make the people love themselves for not having this
:31:32. > :31:34.horrible thing that the enemy has, And if you turn the people
:31:35. > :31:40.against the very idea of education, you're not giving them anything,
:31:41. > :31:43.you're taking something from them, What happens if this turns out to be
:31:44. > :31:53.an incredibly successful presidency? If everything you think now
:31:54. > :31:55.is proved wrong and actually, you know, he makes
:31:56. > :32:01.a good fist of it? And if he does, well, I will have
:32:02. > :32:19.to have a little think again. Do you remember 92-year-old
:32:20. > :32:21.George Montague, who appeared He was reacting to the news
:32:22. > :32:27.that the government was to grant a pardon to gay men like himself
:32:28. > :32:30.who were convicted of sexual offences where the act in question
:32:31. > :32:32.is no longer illegal today. If I get the apology,
:32:33. > :32:40.I don't need a pardon, I don't mind in the least,
:32:41. > :32:43.I just want an apology. Not only me, there's apparently
:32:44. > :32:46.still 11,000 older men like me, still alive, and I talk
:32:47. > :32:50.to some of them. My great friend Lord
:32:51. > :32:52.Edward Montague, take him, I said to him one day, come on,
:32:53. > :32:59.surely, you deserve an apology, and he said, like lots of others,
:33:00. > :33:03.my contemporaries say to me when I talk to them, oh, George,
:33:04. > :33:07.just leave it, let it lie. Well, now our colleagues
:33:08. > :33:15.at the World at One on Radio 4 have revealed that George has finally
:33:16. > :33:18.got his apology - as part of a week of reports 50
:33:19. > :33:37.years on from the decriminalisation It is very nice to welcome you back.
:33:38. > :33:41.Tell us what happened, George. Just over a year ago, I decided that I
:33:42. > :33:51.would get people to sign a petition and we spent the whole day at
:33:52. > :33:57.Kemptown Carnival in Brighton and then about six months later, my
:33:58. > :34:03.partner and I took it up to Number 10 and the media were there and they
:34:04. > :34:07.filmed us. I put my fingerprints on that door knockers and banged the
:34:08. > :34:12.door and handed in the petition and now, at long last, to my great
:34:13. > :34:17.delight, we have got the result. When you have got a letter, is that
:34:18. > :34:26.right? I have got the letter in front of me. Read it out. It is from
:34:27. > :34:31.the Home Office, addressed to me personally. Dear Mr Montague, thank
:34:32. > :34:37.you for your letter of the 1st of November to the Prime Minister about
:34:38. > :34:44.past convictions incurred by gay men to which I have been asked to
:34:45. > :34:53.respond. Euro quest, an apology from the government, on behalf of his
:34:54. > :34:57.predecessors. Now, many more are lived in fear of being criminalised
:34:58. > :35:03.because they were being treated in a very different way from heterosexual
:35:04. > :35:09.couples. Actually, understand that we offer this full apology. Their
:35:10. > :35:16.treatment was unfair, what happened to these men is a matter of the
:35:17. > :35:23.greatest regret and I should be glad so to all of us, I am sure to the
:35:24. > :35:36.members across the House, for this we are today deeply sorry. The House
:35:37. > :35:45.of Commons, Hansard Number 10 and dated January, 2017. And on the
:35:46. > :35:50.back, I hope this address, addresses the concerns you have raised. Yours
:35:51. > :35:59.sincerely, John Woodward, who I understand is a very senior member
:36:00. > :36:01.of the Home Office, John would stop. Congratulations, George, tell us
:36:02. > :36:09.what that feels like? Is the campaign over now? I can only say
:36:10. > :36:14.that when I arrived, the letter was in my home for at least a couple of
:36:15. > :36:20.weeks before we came back from Thailand about ten days ago and
:36:21. > :36:27.there was this letter. And I cannot describe my delight when I opened
:36:28. > :36:31.it. I couldn't believe, I had hoped we would get something, but I did
:36:32. > :36:37.not think we would get such a detailed letter of apology.
:36:38. > :36:44.Wonderful. And does it rest here now? Do you feel that we have a
:36:45. > :36:52.quality? Well, absolutely! The only thing I am a little bit concerned
:36:53. > :36:59.about is the whole thing is to me, personally, now there are 16 or
:37:00. > :37:03.17,000 other men, many of them did nothing but they were persecuted by
:37:04. > :37:09.the police and ended up with convictions. Some of them committed
:37:10. > :37:16.suicide. OK, we cannot apologise to them, but we could at least a
:37:17. > :37:21.posthumous apology, going back to Oscar Wilde. He served time in
:37:22. > :37:26.prison for two years and has never received any sort of apology, give
:37:27. > :37:32.him up postmaster must apology and Lord Edward Montagu, other men went
:37:33. > :37:38.to prison and when I said to my friend, come on, you ought to
:37:39. > :37:43.deserve, he said old George, most people have forgotten about it now,
:37:44. > :37:48.just leave it. I thought about it and I thought, why should I leave
:37:49. > :37:52.it? So I haven't left it and I fought and I have got the letter.
:37:53. > :37:57.George, you make a very sobering point and a good one, thank you very
:37:58. > :38:02.much indeed for joining us this evening. Congratulations.
:38:03. > :38:09.We are finishing with the look of the papers. The Daily Telegraph has
:38:10. > :38:14.Donald Trump saying that Putin will not fully us. The cruise missile
:38:15. > :38:17.attack proves he is not only the fresh air and will not be pushed
:38:18. > :38:21.around by Vladimir Putin. It has that picture of the last respects
:38:22. > :38:25.been paid to the policeman who died defending Parliament in the
:38:26. > :38:28.Westminster attack. The Times has that Scotland gets a cancer drug too
:38:29. > :38:33.expensive for England and Britain will be defined on sanctions.
:38:34. > :38:37.Theresa May throwing her weight behind plans to impose sanctions on
:38:38. > :38:43.Putin. Scotland leads the way with the anti-HIV drug in the Guardian.
:38:44. > :38:47.And Rex Torres's line that the US will protect innocents from
:38:48. > :38:51.aggressors putting America's safety first and their Financial Times has
:38:52. > :38:56.the story of the Berkeley 's chief who faces sanctions and a pay cut
:38:57. > :38:59.for pursuit of a whistle-blower. Much more tomorrow.
:39:00. > :39:03.We leave you with pictures of the Great Barrier Reef,
:39:04. > :39:05.two thirds of which, we learned today, has now succumbed
:39:06. > :39:08.to severe coral bleaching, as the warming oceans kill the algae
:39:09. > :39:11.Scientists have described it as the terminal stage in the reef's
:39:12. > :39:15.Here's what it look like now, accompanied by David Attenborough
:39:16. > :39:24.People say to me what was the most magical thing
:39:25. > :39:30.What was the most magical moment in your career as a naturalist?
:39:31. > :39:33.And I always say, the first time I put on a mask
:39:34. > :39:35.and went below the surface, and moved in three-dimensions,
:39:36. > :39:38.just with a flick of my fin, and suddenly saw all these amazingly
:39:39. > :39:49.multi-coloured things living in communities right there.
:39:50. > :39:51.Just astounding things, unforgettable beauty.
:39:52. > :39:53.I first came to the Barrier Reef nearly 60 years ago,
:39:54. > :39:56.and I remember very clearly how amazed I was to see such
:39:57. > :39:58.a complexity of life, one of the greatest treasures
:39:59. > :40:30.Good evening. Turning to quite quickly out there and a chilly start
:40:31. > :40:31.to Tuesday morning but a lovely