:00:00. > :00:10.Populist nationalism and global liberalism are to fight
:00:11. > :00:20.On the one side, Emmanuel Macron - who sells himself as a radical
:00:21. > :00:25.outsider, but who aims to reform and preserve the existing order.
:00:26. > :00:29.the real anti-establishment outsider.
:00:30. > :00:35.But she came in second, and is starting from behind.
:00:36. > :00:37.We ask this Front National campaign official whether the party
:00:38. > :00:41.is capable of broadening its appeal to keep Macron out?
:00:42. > :00:48.Labour is about to launch its Brexit strategy,
:00:49. > :00:55.but the architect of the last Labour victory is in the dark.
:00:56. > :01:00.What is the liberal position on Brexit now. Well, search me.
:01:01. > :01:02.And in an exclusive interview Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg talks
:01:03. > :01:09.to us about how she came to terms with her husband's sudden death.
:01:10. > :01:14.There are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.
:01:15. > :01:18.But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better
:01:19. > :01:38.And after an election campaign of twists and turns,
:01:39. > :01:41.the big surprise was the lack of big surprise.
:01:42. > :01:44.But it is a huge turning point all the same.
:01:45. > :01:49.The established parties became marginalised,
:01:50. > :01:52.in third and fifth place and now the contest comes down to a showdown
:01:53. > :01:54.between nationalistic populism and globalist liberalism.
:01:55. > :01:56.That is the battle being fought across the west.
:01:57. > :02:00.France is now divided down the middle.
:02:01. > :02:02.The radical candidates, who want to overthrow
:02:03. > :02:04.the existing order - Le Pen on the populist right,
:02:05. > :02:12.Melenchon on the left, and six fringe candidates as well -
:02:13. > :02:15.they got a total of 49.6 per cent of the vote -
:02:16. > :02:20.There is an enormous well of discontent out there.
:02:21. > :02:23.For now, Emmanuel Macron is the man to watch - the best hope
:02:24. > :02:27.for a battered establishment of seeing off the radicals.
:02:28. > :02:29.But the twists continue in this campaign - tonight,
:02:30. > :02:32.his opponent Marine Le Pen has stepped aside from the presidency
:02:33. > :02:35.of her own party - she wants to be above partisan
:02:36. > :02:46.It is, and has been an extraordinary contest.
:02:47. > :03:00.The results last night led to joy in the Macron camp in Paris. Joy at the
:03:01. > :03:06.Le Pen camp. In her stronghold in the north of France.
:03:07. > :03:13.Disappointment that the basis of the traditional parties as scuffles in
:03:14. > :03:18.the Bastille. This is where French Revolution Zokora or are
:03:19. > :03:20.commemorated. Here antifascist protesters clashed with riot police.
:03:21. > :03:28.Less a sense of revolution, or of physical fights, just a public
:03:29. > :03:32.Who do you vote for now, Macron, Le Pen?
:03:33. > :03:34.Obviously Macron because we can't let that happen, there's no way
:03:35. > :03:36.in hell that we are going to let that happen.
:03:37. > :03:39.Like, she does not represent what this country stands for.
:03:40. > :03:41.She appeals to people's fear and she makes them
:03:42. > :03:48.I'm just hoping that France will not give in to that.
:03:49. > :03:54.Yes, I don't want to vote for him, so he won't get my vote.
:03:55. > :04:02.I won't vote Le Pen either because he will be present regardless.
:04:03. > :04:23.I will vote for Macron, obviously. I will vote for Macron because I'm
:04:24. > :04:26.voting against Marine Le Pen. I think many will do the same thing.
:04:27. > :04:29.We are obviously in the midst of enormous political upheaval
:04:30. > :04:33.The rise of a populist right, whether it is
:04:34. > :04:36.The rise of a populist left, whether it's Corbyn,
:04:37. > :04:39.The difficulties of established parties, particularly
:04:40. > :04:45.The gulf between the big metropolitan areas and
:04:46. > :04:50.Here in Paris, Le Pen only got 5% of the vote.
:04:51. > :04:55.In parts of northern France, she was on 30.
:04:56. > :05:01.But in each country there are some peculiarities and it is those that
:05:02. > :05:23.She's no-trump, she is the change candidate but she comes with the
:05:24. > :05:27.baggage of her party's past image so will struggle to win. On the other
:05:28. > :05:32.hand he is no Hillary Clint Hill. He is about saving the current system
:05:33. > :05:33.itself but managed to sell himself as a revolutionary. The contest is
:05:34. > :05:35.his to lose. Many left-leaning voters
:05:36. > :05:42.hate his economic liberalism. They will abstain rather
:05:43. > :05:44.than vote for him. Giving Le Pen a route to power,
:05:45. > :05:47.albeit an unlikely one. Whatever happens in two weeks'
:05:48. > :05:50.time it is going to be Obviously if Marine Le
:05:51. > :05:54.Pen wins it will be. If Macron wins, just think
:05:55. > :05:57.about his next five years. He has got to use that time to reach
:05:58. > :06:03.out to Le Pen voters and woo He has got to somehow reform France
:06:04. > :06:08.and get the system working here. And he's got to do all of that
:06:09. > :06:12.at the same time as finishing He's got a brand-new political
:06:13. > :06:16.party, he's got elections in June and he somehow has to get his people
:06:17. > :06:19.into that parliamentary He's handsome, he's clever,
:06:20. > :06:39.he speaks very well. But we needed kind of a nasty
:06:40. > :06:45.Johnson in order to get the bills of rights and the big society
:06:46. > :06:47.because Kennedy made wonderful speeches, but he had a very
:06:48. > :06:54.problematic foreign policy. And he couldn't get
:06:55. > :06:57.the laws he promised voted. And it was Lyndon Johnson
:06:58. > :07:01.who was much less sexy, that knew the Senate by heart,
:07:02. > :07:20.that knew the Congress. Round one is over, round to begin.
:07:21. > :07:25.But the real work is for the winner in round three. Bringing France
:07:26. > :07:27.together after a bruising period of debate and division.
:07:28. > :07:30.I can't stress enough how marmite Macron is.
:07:31. > :07:32.Many love him, French voters outside of France -
:07:33. > :07:35.in London for example - gave him a big lead.
:07:36. > :07:40.I spoke to a taxi driver last night who was very frustrated,
:07:41. > :07:47.and said he could never vote for either Macron or Le Pen.
:07:48. > :07:48.There are posters Tout Sauf Macron...
:07:49. > :07:52.And that is why it is interesting for the populist case,
:07:53. > :07:54.that Marine Le Pen is so far behind in the polls.
:07:55. > :07:57.Can she reach out to those on the left who like her
:07:58. > :08:04.Is that why she has distanced herself from her own party?
:08:05. > :08:07.Well, I'm joined by Mikael Sala, who is on Marine Le Pen's campaign
:08:08. > :08:09.committee and chairs 'Croissance Bleu Marine'
:08:10. > :08:21.Good evening. Why has she stepped down from the leadership of her own
:08:22. > :08:27.party? She's getting ready for the job, that she is getting in a couple
:08:28. > :08:30.of weeks. She will not be president of the National front and president
:08:31. > :08:34.of fans at the same time so she made the move right now and she's getting
:08:35. > :08:39.ready. It makes a lot of sense. The timing is perfect. Will she go back
:08:40. > :08:42.to being party leader if she loses the presidency? While the first
:08:43. > :08:46.thing is we will win this one. But just suppose you do not. The second
:08:47. > :08:51.thing is personally as a member of the National front, I want her to
:08:52. > :08:55.remain as boss because she's such a great boss to work for. So you're
:08:56. > :09:00.assuming she will go back to the leadership of the I hope so but she
:09:01. > :09:04.will win. There is another theory which is the tarnished brand is the
:09:05. > :09:12.brand of the National front and she's somehow knows that there are
:09:13. > :09:15.folks out there, that French people are economically nationalists, we've
:09:16. > :09:19.seen that in this vote and they cannot just quite bring themselves
:09:20. > :09:23.to vote for your party. There are several questions in one. The French
:09:24. > :09:28.presidential election is not an election between a party and the
:09:29. > :09:31.people of France, it is an election between a political personality and
:09:32. > :09:35.the people of France. That has always been the case. As opposed to
:09:36. > :09:39.parliamentary elections which are elections between a party and the
:09:40. > :09:44.people. That is one thing. Had this been the case she would have
:09:45. > :09:50.resigned from the presidency of the National front month ago. It is just
:09:51. > :09:54.like the launch pad, we launched the rocket of Marine Le Pen and now is
:09:55. > :09:58.the time to let the Rock would go and fly. How do you broaden your
:09:59. > :10:06.appeal them because effectively you are about 38 in the polls, Macron is
:10:07. > :10:10.60-something. You're just a long way from it. You say that you're going
:10:11. > :10:13.to win but how are you going to do it, how do you broaden the pitch to
:10:14. > :10:20.people who are scared of National front. Well we have been centrestage
:10:21. > :10:24.during this whole campaign. Because the western world is very tired of
:10:25. > :10:31.the concept of fierce globalisation. The globalisation that has created
:10:32. > :10:35.wealth... I think there are people scared of it but then why are you
:10:36. > :10:40.38% in the polls are not 50%. Well, it is coming. The first round is
:10:41. > :10:46.there for the people to express themselves and then they eliminate,
:10:47. > :10:50.the Jewish candidate who they feel is best suited for the job. And let
:10:51. > :10:54.me tell you one thing, the French will choose Marine Le Pen because
:10:55. > :10:58.she's the only states present left in this country today. Emmanuel
:10:59. > :11:04.Macron is not a statesman. First of all he's a bit young for the job and
:11:05. > :11:08.the way he has behaved, going to Berlin to meet Angela Merkel for a
:11:09. > :11:11.job interview, he is not a statesman. Clearly states present in
:11:12. > :11:16.this country is Marine Le Pen and this is why she does not need to
:11:17. > :11:21.fight, to broaden her appeal, that is broad enough. But there are many
:11:22. > :11:26.people who think that this is not the same party it was 20 years ago,
:11:27. > :11:33.but it has many of the same people in it who were there 20 years ago.
:11:34. > :11:36.Including Marine Le Pen. Do you think it is the same party it was 20
:11:37. > :11:41.years ago or is it a different party? It is different but the
:11:42. > :11:46.difference is, it is the continuing story. And personally I joined the
:11:47. > :11:52.National front in 2013, which is not too long ago. But Marine Le Pen was
:11:53. > :11:57.there when she was aged 1830 years ago. So you can see why some people,
:11:58. > :12:05.and you must have come across this, some people just think of this party
:12:06. > :12:09.as fascist, you have moved a long way but your vote share has only
:12:10. > :12:17.grown by 3%. You have a lot more to do. You know, parties involved, the
:12:18. > :12:21.kind of accusation that the party is nationalists does not stick. The
:12:22. > :12:25.French know that it is not the truth. Because what Marine Le Pen
:12:26. > :12:30.stands for is patriotism. She says what makes this country great or
:12:31. > :12:34.made it great is that France had the ability to make French are people
:12:35. > :12:39.coming from anywhere around the world. We lost that somewhere along
:12:40. > :12:43.the way because of the sheer number of migrants that this country had to
:12:44. > :12:47.take in. We cannot take in so many people any more. So we have to
:12:48. > :12:51.reduce the number of migrants to make sure that France has this
:12:52. > :12:56.ability to make French people again by assimilating them to our culture.
:12:57. > :12:59.Because it is not an ethnic country but a cultural country, a
:13:00. > :13:02.philosophical country. We must leave it there. Thank you very much.
:13:03. > :13:04.The Socialist Party's candidate did appallingly badly -
:13:05. > :13:06.Benoit Hamon's more pro-EU stance left him trailing the independent
:13:07. > :13:16.Working for his election, was the MP Axelle Lemaire,
:13:17. > :13:17.she has been minister for the digital economy,
:13:18. > :13:20.and represents the French citizens who live outside the country
:13:21. > :13:28.I asked her what lesson can her party draw from the election.
:13:29. > :13:31.One of the main lessons of the first round is that people want
:13:32. > :13:42.It is a no vote in the sense that it is an anti-system vote.
:13:43. > :13:47.And Emmanuel Macron was smart enough to play that card.
:13:48. > :13:50.The Socialist party wasn't good enough to renew itself.
:13:51. > :13:54.I think times have changed and party politics in the way it used to work
:13:55. > :14:03.You will vote for Emmanuel Macron, obviously.
:14:04. > :14:12.Many people who really want big change but who don't
:14:13. > :14:14.like Marine Le Pen, where do they go?
:14:15. > :14:18.My feeling is some of them will just abstain.
:14:19. > :14:23.I think it's a source of concern and it shouldn't be underestimated.
:14:24. > :14:28.I'm particularly worried coming from the Conservative activists
:14:29. > :14:30.because Francois Fillon called for a vote in favour of
:14:31. > :14:38.But the reality is that his core supporters,
:14:39. > :14:52.They're anti-Islam, not anti-Islamism.
:14:53. > :14:57.And some of them are closer in the position to Marine Le Pen
:14:58. > :15:05.Let me finish by asking you, when you look at the French
:15:06. > :15:07.political establishment, do you think they deserve
:15:08. > :15:18.Let's take stock of where we are: veteran journalists
:15:19. > :15:21.Christine Ockrent and Pierre Haski are with me, as they always
:15:22. > :15:24.seem to be when we talk about the French election.
:15:25. > :15:34.Good evening. Let's start on the Socialists, can they get this back
:15:35. > :15:39.together? The official party has done so badly, can they come back?
:15:40. > :15:46.Which socialists are you talking about? The party who have been
:15:47. > :15:54.governing. I mean, their performances the worst since the
:15:55. > :16:02.1950s. Socialism did quite well and she made that point. Melenchon will
:16:03. > :16:12.claim that he represents the new true socialist flame, ready... He is
:16:13. > :16:23.closer to Jeremy Corbyn. Maulana Shah has managed to do what others
:16:24. > :16:28.have not managed to do -- Melenchon. Here we have the situation, worried
:16:29. > :16:33.the Socialists, are left to be picked, what is left of them. Some
:16:34. > :16:41.of them will go towards Macron, the more liberal ones. He still has the
:16:42. > :16:44.sort of legitimacy for the social Democrat brand, which of course
:16:45. > :16:52.Macron has very much stolen to his own benefit. I am sure that Manuel
:16:53. > :16:56.Valls will try make a comeback. Let's talk about the Republicans,
:16:57. > :17:00.the right-wing party, they could easily have won this if they had put
:17:01. > :17:07.up a candidate who was not regarded as corrupt by most people. That why
:17:08. > :17:11.they will say that primaries, it is a terrible system, that Francois
:17:12. > :17:17.Fillon did win their primary, with a huge margin. He managed to transform
:17:18. > :17:23.an election that he could not lose into an election he could not win.
:17:24. > :17:30.That is why the party has murdered him, every leader of the party is
:17:31. > :17:33.mad at him and he paid the price today. All of the other candidates
:17:34. > :17:40.they were talking about all had issues and question marks. It will
:17:41. > :17:47.be interesting to see how he will make his comeback and want to lead
:17:48. > :17:54.the party. And still keep the 40-45 years old, the youngest Conservative
:17:55. > :17:59.crowd under a lease. The problem you're going to have, at these
:18:00. > :18:03.elections in June, the legislative elections and people are split
:18:04. > :18:07.between wanting to join Macron and help the new rejuvenation of
:18:08. > :18:11.politics but on the other side there is local politics and there are
:18:12. > :18:15.constituencies and people have invested in their lives there. I
:18:16. > :18:19.knew party system trying to break out of an old one. Also these people
:18:20. > :18:25.want to keep their seats and they will have to face probably Macron's
:18:26. > :18:29.candidates in their constituencies. But I think is really striking is
:18:30. > :18:35.the challenge for France. It is so important over the next five years,
:18:36. > :18:42.if Macron wins. It is how he reaches out to the Marine Le Pen voters.
:18:43. > :18:45.This country is very divided, there is a lot of discontent and a lot of
:18:46. > :18:50.people are feeling that they need a voice, aren't they? Is Macron
:18:51. > :18:54.capable of giving them a voice and making them feel listened to? That
:18:55. > :19:03.is what he is going to have to say in the coming ten days. We are all
:19:04. > :19:07.looking forward of course to the televised debate, which will take
:19:08. > :19:16.place next Wednesday, because that will be a real moment. Not only in
:19:17. > :19:22.politics. But also the psyche of the country. If he gets elected, which I
:19:23. > :19:25.think he will, all he does then is just change the face is not change
:19:26. > :19:30.the politics, then the way we do politics in this country, and as you
:19:31. > :19:35.say, reach out to the people who voted for Marine Le Pen, because
:19:36. > :19:41.they are angry people who have legitimate reasons to be angry. Then
:19:42. > :19:45.we are in trouble. We cannot go back to business as usual in this country
:19:46. > :19:49.after what happened. You're going through the same experiences as the
:19:50. > :19:54.US but it may be that you have a second chance for Macron to sort out
:19:55. > :19:58.the existing system before a populist takes over, if you look at
:19:59. > :20:03.it from that point of view, maybe France has something over the
:20:04. > :20:08.Liberals of the US. Emmanuel Macron knows how the state machinery works.
:20:09. > :20:14.That is the way he was educated, that is what his experience, however
:20:15. > :20:21.brief, has been in government. What he says about the way the French
:20:22. > :20:26.state, which has always been over powerful and looked upon as a sort
:20:27. > :20:32.of god on earth, it is interesting. I think the people you're talking
:20:33. > :20:35.about, Le Pen and also Jean-Luc Melenchon voters and voters are
:20:36. > :20:40.Francois Fillon, who will not necessarily fall in love with
:20:41. > :20:45.Macron. He will have to find a way to explain how he wants to modernise
:20:46. > :20:48.the relationship between the state and the citizen. We will need to
:20:49. > :20:50.leave it there. But this election has done more
:20:51. > :20:54.than anything to crystallise and clarify the divisions in several
:20:55. > :20:56.western countries? And so let me hand
:20:57. > :20:59.back to you in London. The reaction from France,
:21:00. > :21:02.but are there lessons of Emmanual Macron's first
:21:03. > :21:04.round victory for the centre Earlier this evening I spoke
:21:05. > :21:08.to the ardent europhile Peter Mandelson who tonight has
:21:09. > :21:10.launched a cross party campaign tonight to try to secure
:21:11. > :21:13.the defeat of pro Brexit MPs - of whatever party -
:21:14. > :21:15.in the coming election, but first I asked him
:21:16. > :21:47.whether Macron's It gives me great hope for France
:21:48. > :21:51.and gives me great hope for Europe. These are strong pro-Europeans, but
:21:52. > :21:55.he also recognises that Europe has to be reinvented. It is one thing to
:21:56. > :21:59.have a great vision, but it needs a better popular offer. There is a
:22:00. > :22:07.picture of him and on the shelf behind him is a copy of your book,
:22:08. > :22:13.The Third Man. Do you see him as an air to Tony Blair? In a sense, yes.
:22:14. > :22:20.He is somebody who very convincingly has set out to appeal, both to the
:22:21. > :22:25.centre-left and to the centre-right, who build a new Coalition, a new
:22:26. > :22:29.majority in France, who will give him backing for the sort of reforms
:22:30. > :22:33.that he wants to see through, but which you cannot see through in
:22:34. > :22:39.France, without a big body of support behind you. But then, what
:22:40. > :22:45.is the lesson for the centre-left here, is it that you really have to
:22:46. > :22:49.break, with as it were at the old left? I think you have to be
:22:50. > :22:56.prepared, as Macron did, to construct a campaign, outside
:22:57. > :23:01.conventional norms or conventional Outlook or attitudes. I mean the
:23:02. > :23:06.public are absolutely desperate Down outside the party? In his case, yes,
:23:07. > :23:10.because the parties socialists in France was crumbling around their
:23:11. > :23:15.ears. There really was not a centre-left party with which to
:23:16. > :23:19.campaign any more, worth its name. Like in the UK? That is not the case
:23:20. > :23:25.in Britain. We still have a Labour Party. Going through obviously the
:23:26. > :23:31.trials and tribulations that we have become familiar with, but I think
:23:32. > :23:34.the key point about Macron is that although he knew he had to appeal to
:23:35. > :23:38.both centre-left and centre-right, he knew he had to stand for
:23:39. > :23:44.something, he had to have a clear sense of where he wanted to take the
:23:45. > :23:49.country. Do you see anyone who has a Macron type figure here for the
:23:50. > :23:54.centre-left? Can you identify anyone? No, because the people who
:23:55. > :23:59.are merging are merging within the Labour Party and not outside it, as
:24:00. > :24:04.Macron had to do. Who do you see emerging in the Labour Party who has
:24:05. > :24:08.that centre-left mantel? I am not going to tantalise you with names
:24:09. > :24:13.and gases. All I know is that there are a younger generation in the
:24:14. > :24:15.Labour Party, they do have that sense of vigour and commitment and
:24:16. > :24:22.one of them will come forward in order to lead the party to eventual
:24:23. > :24:27.victory but that is some way off. Is there a circumstance do you think
:24:28. > :24:30.when voting Labour will not necessarily deliver the best result
:24:31. > :24:36.for the kind of Brexit you would like to see? I am a supporter of
:24:37. > :24:41.open Britain, the largest pro-European membership organisation
:24:42. > :24:48.in the country and what they want to do is to campaign in the most
:24:49. > :24:54.effective way against a hard Brexit, against ebbing Theresa May the blank
:24:55. > :24:58.check that she is looking for in the selection, to take Britain out of
:24:59. > :25:03.Europe on my view in the worst terms imaginable. This cross party
:25:04. > :25:08.grouping is launching its campaign now to give support for the most
:25:09. > :25:13.pro-remain-macro candidate standing, do you accept that might not be a
:25:14. > :25:16.Labour candidate? And also to oppose those of a hard Brexit and it will
:25:17. > :25:21.be different people from different parties. In that sense what you're
:25:22. > :25:24.saying is that in some constituencies it might be better to
:25:25. > :25:28.park your vote with the Liberal Democrats than for Labour? That is
:25:29. > :25:37.for people to decide, we are not telling people how to vote. If you
:25:38. > :25:41.want to know how I would vote, I would be supporting the Labour
:25:42. > :25:44.candidate. The point is not to tell people how to vote, it would be to
:25:45. > :25:49.advise them and help them to make the most effective intervention in
:25:50. > :25:53.constituencies around the country that can make a difference to the
:25:54. > :25:59.sort of majority that Theresa May gets at the end of it. That is what
:26:00. > :26:05.democracy is all about. What is the Labour position on Brexit now?
:26:06. > :26:09.Search me! I think you need to wait for the manifesto. The problem for
:26:10. > :26:12.the Labour Party in the selection on Brexit is very clear and that is
:26:13. > :26:16.that they are not I am afraid differentiating between their
:26:17. > :26:20.position and policy sufficiently from the government or have not done
:26:21. > :26:25.up until now. They needed to do that if they were going to offer the
:26:26. > :26:29.voters a clear choice but I hope that that will come out in the wash
:26:30. > :26:32.and I hope that in the coming days and weeks we will see a clearer
:26:33. > :26:37.rather than a more robust approach from the Labour Party on this,
:26:38. > :26:42.because Labour Party supporters and voters and members right across the
:26:43. > :26:45.country are looking for leadership on Brexit rather than an equivocal,
:26:46. > :26:51.rather more fence sitting position and approach we have had to date. If
:26:52. > :26:55.there is a defeat of the Labour Party, and just say Jeremy Corbyn
:26:56. > :27:05.puts on a million votes still, should he stay? He may see that as a
:27:06. > :27:08.mandate to carry on. Any leader who has the control of the party that he
:27:09. > :27:11.does, who will run the campaign in the way that he chooses, must also
:27:12. > :27:16.own the result that he gets and he must see the conclusion that defeat
:27:17. > :27:22.presents him with an fall on his sword. I hope you will do that. Any
:27:23. > :27:27.person with an ounce of loyalty or responsibility to the Labour Party
:27:28. > :27:31.would do precisely that. Just coming back to Brexit and the idea, the
:27:32. > :27:37.thing that you're desperately trying to stop is a hard Brexit, do you
:27:38. > :27:41.think that Brexit itself is an inevitability? We are set on a
:27:42. > :27:47.course to leave the European Union. We have had the referendum, we know
:27:48. > :27:50.the result. What we don't know and this is fundamentally important, is
:27:51. > :27:55.how we are going to leave the European Union and on what terms,
:27:56. > :28:00.with what future trade deal between Europe and the European Union. He
:28:01. > :28:03.was the point in my view, the government has deliberately narrowed
:28:04. > :28:07.its options. I don't believe there is a one size fits all Brexit. There
:28:08. > :28:13.are different permutations and different types of Brexit, different
:28:14. > :28:17.terms on which we can leave the European Union and secure the
:28:18. > :28:20.greatest continuity of our trade in and with the European Union and my
:28:21. > :28:23.complaint and criticism of the government is that they are
:28:24. > :28:27.narrowing their options, taking options from the table, we know why,
:28:28. > :28:31.it is for purely political and ideological reasons because she is
:28:32. > :28:35.giving into the wild men in her party. That is what she is doing and
:28:36. > :28:42.in the process she is sacrificing them interest of our nation. You
:28:43. > :28:46.proud to be as of Brexit? I could not be more pleased with the Daily
:28:47. > :28:53.Mail calling me a saboteur and say that I had to be crushed. The other
:28:54. > :28:57.day the Sun newspaper devoted a leader to announcing -- denouncing
:28:58. > :29:01.my treachery. I am as patriotically the next person but one thing I am
:29:02. > :29:07.not is a national list. I love my country that is why I am a patriot.
:29:08. > :29:11.I do not hate other countries as nationalists do. Proud saboteur,
:29:12. > :29:14.Peter Mandelson, thank you very much. Thank you.
:29:15. > :29:17.And Labour's Brexit Spokesman Keir Starmer will be setting out Labour's
:29:18. > :29:19.position on the Today Programme, Radio 4 at 8.10 tomorrow morning.
:29:20. > :29:21.Sheryl Sandberg, the Chief Operating Officer of Facebook,
:29:22. > :29:24.came to the world's attention four years ago when Lean IN was published
:29:25. > :29:26.- a hand book designed to help professional women
:29:27. > :29:29.reach their career goals and overcome the barriers that exist
:29:30. > :29:34.Then in May 2015 her husband Dave Goldberg died tragically
:29:35. > :29:37.after sustaining a head injury when he fell from a treadmill.
:29:38. > :29:40.After his death Sandberg felt certain that she and her children
:29:41. > :29:42.would never feel pure joy again but her friend Adam Grant,
:29:43. > :29:44.a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania told her
:29:45. > :29:47.about concrete steps people can take to help them recover
:29:48. > :29:50.Together they have written a book, 'Option B: Facing Adversity,
:29:51. > :29:51.Building Resilience, and Finding Joy'.
:29:52. > :30:15.My biggest fear was that my kids would never be happy again,
:30:16. > :30:17.that all of their happiness would have been wiped
:30:18. > :30:22.And so I turned to my friend Adam Gray who is a psychologist,
:30:23. > :30:28.How do I get my kids through this, how do I get myself through this?
:30:29. > :30:31.And I learned that resilience is not something we have a set amount of.
:30:32. > :30:36.We build it, we build it in ourselves, in each other.
:30:37. > :30:41.And Option B is our attempt to share what we learned.
:30:42. > :30:44.From the researchers who have studied this for a really long time,
:30:45. > :30:49.from other people who have faced all forms of adversity.
:30:50. > :30:52.And how do you get away then from that sense that
:30:53. > :30:57.what you were feeling at the worst moment would be with you forever?
:30:58. > :31:06.It's about when it is so bad, knowing or believing
:31:07. > :31:19.I felt I was sucked into a void, like I could barely breathe.
:31:20. > :31:21.My brother-in-law talked about it, David's brother,
:31:22. > :31:23.as a boot stuck on his chest, pushing him in.
:31:24. > :31:27.And people told me, who had been through it, this gets better.
:31:28. > :31:29.Adam told me it gets better and I did not believe them.
:31:30. > :31:33.And I'm hoping Option B can do that, can tell people no matter how bad it
:31:34. > :31:35.feels, the sadness lingers, it's still with me today,
:31:36. > :31:40.And one of the ways you can make it get better is just
:31:41. > :31:43.You don't have to feel it, because you're not going to.
:31:44. > :31:47.And the other thing is, paying attention to the little,
:31:48. > :31:58.But a couple of weeks or months in, or even days in, I could laugh
:31:59. > :32:01.at one funny thing someone said and feel OK for a minute.
:32:02. > :32:05.And knowing that and then being able to say, OK,
:32:06. > :32:09.other people have been through this, you can get to the other side, makes
:32:10. > :32:16.Was it right at the beginning, or did it hit much later?
:32:17. > :32:22.My brother-in-law kind of pulled me off his body
:32:23. > :32:33.I told my children they had lost their father.
:32:34. > :32:38.Like, there are so many bad moments, there is no one worst moment.
:32:39. > :32:43.But in all of it, was this feeling that it would never get better.
:32:44. > :32:53.But there are things I've learned through this.
:32:54. > :32:56.And knowing that there was a path to that boot getting lifted
:32:57. > :33:05.And what was the most helpful thing, was there one thing that you point
:33:06. > :33:11.How do you go through tragedy and trauma and come out
:33:12. > :33:15.But one day Adam said to me, you know, you really should think
:33:16. > :33:25.And he looked at me and said, David could have had that
:33:26. > :33:28.same cardiac arrhythmia driving your children.
:33:29. > :33:31.I could have lost all three of them in that same incident.
:33:32. > :33:35.And actually, the minute you say it, even here,
:33:36. > :33:44.And finding ways to feel grateful for what we have left,
:33:45. > :33:48.for no matter how hard things are, for the good things in life,
:33:49. > :33:54.You know, it never occurred to me that David would not turn 48.
:33:55. > :33:57.It never occurred to me to feel grateful for
:33:58. > :34:01.You talk about the moment when you pushed against the bottom
:34:02. > :34:04.and finally found that kick-off to get back up to the surface.
:34:05. > :34:10.One thing Adam told me was that happiness is not
:34:11. > :34:14.It's actually found in the small stuff.
:34:15. > :34:17.After Dave died I was waiting to feel better.
:34:18. > :34:21.And on the way there, I was not doing anything fun.
:34:22. > :34:24.I was working, was taking care of my children,
:34:25. > :34:27.I would spend the rest of my time crying.
:34:28. > :34:35.And then one day I went to a bar mitzvah and a childhood friend
:34:36. > :34:37.pulled me onto the dance floor and I danced.
:34:38. > :34:42.It was about four months after Dave died.
:34:43. > :34:46.Because I think I felt so guilty that I had felt
:34:47. > :34:49.And I needed permission to feel better.
:34:50. > :34:52.My brother-in-law, Dave's brother, gave it to me and it was one
:34:53. > :34:54.of the most important things that's happened in my life.
:34:55. > :34:56.He called me one day crying and he said, Sheryl,
:34:57. > :34:59.all Dave ever wanted was for you and your
:35:00. > :35:07.And there is a role for social media in grief?
:35:08. > :35:09.You turned to Facebook to write that post after the formal
:35:10. > :35:13.And remember vividly you said, don't ask me how I am.
:35:14. > :35:18.I know I work at Facebook and I believe deeply
:35:19. > :35:22.But I have a whole new understanding of what it can mean to people
:35:23. > :35:24.going through tragedy, as it was for me.
:35:25. > :35:27.You know, after I lost Dave, it wasn't just the grief.
:35:28. > :35:30.I came back to work, I'd always had very friendly
:35:31. > :35:36.And no one knew what to say to me, so often they said nothing.
:35:37. > :35:38.The only kind of looked at me like I was a ghost.
:35:39. > :35:43.And so there is that Jewish of mourning for a spouse.
:35:44. > :35:47.At the end of that period I wrote a post about how I was feeling.
:35:48. > :35:50.And the night before I went to sleep, I said there is no
:35:51. > :35:52.way I am posting this, it is too honest and too
:35:53. > :35:56.And the next morning I felt so terrible, I thought
:35:57. > :36:04.But for me, having people say how are you today,
:36:05. > :36:05.having people acknowledge, kicking the elephant out
:36:06. > :36:10.And very much the path to writing this book.
:36:11. > :36:13.I guess social media can also be a place that amplifies grief.
:36:14. > :36:16.I mean, I have spoken to grieving mothers who have, you know,
:36:17. > :36:25.It's sort of unthinkable, but did you witness any of that yourself?
:36:26. > :36:29.You know, 1.8 billion people on our platform, things happen.
:36:30. > :36:32.And those are things we don't want to happen and we take very
:36:33. > :36:35.seriously and try and take the appropriate action.
:36:36. > :36:38.For me Facebook became the place where Dave's memories were stored.
:36:39. > :36:42.You know, people would walk up to me in those early days and still today,
:36:43. > :36:48.But, you know, in the fog of grief, I wasn't going
:36:49. > :36:51.I wasn't going to remember all the details perfectly,
:36:52. > :36:54.to save them for my children who are going to know their father
:36:55. > :36:59.Because they were so young when he died.
:37:00. > :37:03.And so Dave's Facebook page is where those stories live.
:37:04. > :37:06.And people's names and people's faces.
:37:07. > :37:14.You have such, of course, a positive sense of what social media can do.
:37:15. > :37:20.But there's also this sense now, isn't there, that the internet
:37:21. > :37:22.we used to think of as providing unambiguous improvement
:37:23. > :37:25.to the world, now it feels like the mood is shifting.
:37:26. > :37:27.Whether it is polarising us politically or eating
:37:28. > :37:36.Do you sense that backlash against the digital revolution?
:37:37. > :37:39.Any technology I know can be used for good and can be
:37:40. > :37:44.And it's our job to make sure that people can share and connect
:37:45. > :37:47.on Facebook and that we take the right steps to mitigate
:37:48. > :37:51.the harm when the technology is used in the wrong ways.
:37:52. > :37:59.One of the things that I think really helps Facebook is we have
:38:00. > :38:02.People behave better when their names and their faces
:38:03. > :38:05.Some people will still make awful comments and some
:38:06. > :38:09.But a lot of the bad comments go away when you can't
:38:10. > :38:13.Tell me one thing, the rumour is that Silicon chiefs know how
:38:14. > :38:15.addictive screen time can be for their kids.
:38:16. > :38:18.Do you have the same problems as the rest of us?
:38:19. > :38:19.How do you manage that with your kids?
:38:20. > :38:22.Well, I think that there's a lot of good that happens online.
:38:23. > :38:30.They research things for school, even in elementary school,
:38:31. > :38:34.they have access to information that I could have never, ever had.
:38:35. > :38:38.And we have rules around screen time in my house as well.
:38:39. > :38:45.And we have, you know, no phone at the table,
:38:46. > :38:47.no phone during meals, no phone before
:38:48. > :38:53.Facebook has been very proactive in combating fake news.
:38:54. > :38:57.You have this disputed content warning sign now
:38:58. > :39:02.Do you feel that this is a gesture that you are morphing
:39:03. > :39:09.We are really a platform and we take our responsibilities
:39:10. > :39:17.Because it makes our community uninformed,
:39:18. > :39:21.it hurts our community, it hurts countries.
:39:22. > :39:24.And we know that people want to see accurate news on Facebook,
:39:25. > :39:33.So you have to become a publisher, an editorial voice now?
:39:34. > :39:36.I do not think we have to be the publisher and we definitely
:39:37. > :39:38.don't want to be arbiter of the truth.
:39:39. > :39:39.We don't think that's appropriate for us.
:39:40. > :39:41.We think everyone needs to do their part.
:39:42. > :39:47.We're focused on decreasing the financial incentives for false news.
:39:48. > :39:50.Because a lot of times it is financially motivated.
:39:51. > :39:53.Do you think fake news, though, is with us for life,
:39:54. > :39:57.Well, we all have to do our part to make sure that people seek
:39:58. > :40:06.And figuring out how we do that is something we're
:40:07. > :40:08.going to have to see and will evolve.
:40:09. > :40:12.The goal is for people to see accurate information on Facebook
:40:13. > :40:23.That's about it for tonight, but before we go, pop fans
:40:24. > :40:26.celebrated today as it was announced that the orginal line-up of the '80s
:40:27. > :40:28.girl group Bananarama were reforming for the first time since 1988.
:40:29. > :40:36.And, with an election in the air, what better way to remember Keren,
:40:37. > :40:39.Siobhan and Sara than with this - highly political -
:40:40. > :40:40.promo for their 1988 greatest hits album.
:40:41. > :40:52.# Robert De Niro's waiting, talking Italian...
:40:53. > :41:10.# Because I'm guilty, guilty as guilty as a girl can be...
:41:11. > :41:17.The most successful British girl group ever.