:00:00. > :00:08.It takes courage to tell the elderly you're taking away their triple
:00:09. > :00:18.Theresa May didn't seem sure that she had that courage today.
:00:19. > :00:27.Will the Prime Minister gave a clear and unambiguous
:00:28. > :00:29.commitment to maintaining the triple lock?
:00:30. > :00:30.We see, we have seen pensioners benefit
:00:31. > :00:33.as a result of what we've done to the basic state pension.
:00:34. > :00:37.Her head says the triple lock should go, but politics says otherwise.
:00:38. > :00:40.We'll ask if a party leader with a 20% poll lead needs
:00:41. > :00:44.Also tonight, post Brexit, what is the point of Ukip?
:00:45. > :00:48.We sent John Sweeney to invade Clackton on Sea to find out.
:00:49. > :00:55.I did, yes, and I voted mainly for Douglas Carswell and Brexit so I
:00:56. > :01:08.And can you name this rebellious middle class tearaway?
:01:09. > :01:12.His younger brother lifts the lid on what he was really like.
:01:13. > :01:16.TRANSLATION: The shirt that we used to call the weekly shirt, because he
:01:17. > :01:18.would wear it the whole week without washing it.
:01:19. > :01:29.He was very untidy and people used to call him pig.
:01:30. > :01:33.Elections are meant to be the best of times to debate
:01:34. > :01:36.the grand strategic questions facing the nation.
:01:37. > :01:40.The sublime arguments can get supplanted by the squalid
:01:41. > :01:46.Even parties 20% ahead in the polls can't resist bribing the public.
:01:47. > :01:50.Is that what is happening here with regard to pensioners?
:01:51. > :01:52.An important question for this election is who should
:01:53. > :01:55.get more of the pie - the old or the young.
:01:56. > :01:59.The old have been doing relatively well, partly thanks
:02:00. > :02:03.to the so-called triple lock, which ensures the state
:02:04. > :02:06.pension keeps rising by the inflation rate,
:02:07. > :02:11.or with earnings, or at 2.5%, whichever is higher.
:02:12. > :02:15.It's kicked in while working age welfare and wages have fallen back.
:02:16. > :02:19.So, as party manifestos are cobbled together,
:02:20. > :02:22.is now the time to suggest to voters an end to the triple lock?
:02:23. > :02:24.The subject came up in the Commons today,
:02:25. > :02:30.Theresa May was not saying, and there is understood to be
:02:31. > :02:33.a battle going on behind the scenes in the Tory party for whether to
:02:34. > :02:46.A clear choice between a Labour Party who in government saw
:02:47. > :02:50.the increase in the basic state pension of 75p in one year,
:02:51. > :02:57.and a Conservative government whose changes to pensions mean basic state
:02:58. > :03:07.Labour will guarantee the triple lock, Labour will treat pensioners
:03:08. > :03:10.with respect and we won't move the goalposts to people looking
:03:11. > :03:17.For the last 20 years or so it may as well have been a constitutional
:03:18. > :03:19.requirement that politicians should campaign on how generous they plan
:03:20. > :03:29.The rationale is surely not just that they are warm-hearted,
:03:30. > :03:38.Cynics might note that, first, the elderly are a growing group
:03:39. > :03:41.of voters and old people turn out to vote more than younger people.
:03:42. > :03:51.In 1997, someone who was 70 had a much lower income
:03:52. > :03:57.Pensioner poverty was a top tier social problem.
:03:58. > :03:59.Since then, though, successive politicians have looked
:04:00. > :04:18.When you adjust for housing costs, older people are now better off
:04:19. > :04:24.The political incentives are still there, but the case
:04:25. > :04:26.for spending a lot more on pensioners simply isn't
:04:27. > :04:37.I'm joined by Nick Watt, our political editor.
:04:38. > :04:43.Obviously everyone is writing their manifestos, this has turned into one
:04:44. > :04:47.of those interesting debates for the parties. What's going on with the
:04:48. > :04:53.Conservatives? A flurry of excitement this afternoon when the
:04:54. > :04:57.Prime Minister declined to say whether she would stand by the
:04:58. > :05:00.triple lock in the manifesto. I understand no decision has been made
:05:01. > :05:05.and that Theresa May is taking a long and hard look at this, looking
:05:06. > :05:09.at the costings. One cabinet member said it is a challenge to meet the
:05:10. > :05:13.costs. She's looking at polling data to see what people think. The
:05:14. > :05:19.balance she wants to strike is a fair deal for pensioners while doing
:05:20. > :05:24.more for young people, what the geeks called intergenerational
:05:25. > :05:28.fairness. What are the options? Option number one is that you stick
:05:29. > :05:32.with it for the entirety of the next parliament, the thinking being that
:05:33. > :05:37.given that inflation is going to be running at or above the Bank of
:05:38. > :05:41.England target of 2%, why not carry on with the triple lock because
:05:42. > :05:47.pensions are going to be decreasing by about 2.5% anyway? Number two,
:05:48. > :05:52.you stand by the Conservatives' current commitment to keep it until
:05:53. > :05:55.2020 but after that you give yourselves more flexibility by
:05:56. > :06:03.moving from a triple lock to a double lock, under which you scrap
:06:04. > :06:07.the 2.5% target and go for increasing it with whichever is the
:06:08. > :06:11.highest, inflation or highest earnings. If you do that you are
:06:12. > :06:15.coming into line with the review by John Cridland, the former head of
:06:16. > :06:22.the CBI, who talked about getting rid of the 2.5% target, increasing
:06:23. > :06:26.the retirement age in the late 20 20s, 268, which would save you money
:06:27. > :06:33.which can be on social care. Where is the Conservative manifesto?
:06:34. > :06:36.Monday the eighth. A lot of pensioners struggle but in
:06:37. > :06:39.pensioners past, pensioner poverty was far worse than it is now.
:06:40. > :06:42.It was part of the landscape rather like the care crisis is these days.
:06:43. > :06:44.A sustained, concerted effort eased the problem.
:06:45. > :06:49.But is it time to stop giving special treatment to pensioners?
:06:50. > :06:52.We asked to speak to the government but no one is available.
:06:53. > :06:55.I'm joined by David Cameron's former pensions minister Baroness Altmann
:06:56. > :06:58.and by Ian Blackford who speaks on pensions for the SNP.
:06:59. > :07:04.It was they who asked the question that got some indecision from
:07:05. > :07:09.Theresa May. You aren't a fan of this. You were in government, you
:07:10. > :07:15.are part of the party that pledged it, what is wrong with it? The
:07:16. > :07:19.triple lock made sense when it was first introduced because pensioners
:07:20. > :07:23.had fallen behind and it guaranteed that you would be increasing their
:07:24. > :07:26.pensions but actually it's a little bit of a trick because it doesn't
:07:27. > :07:31.apply to all of the state pension, only bits of it. In fact it doesn't
:07:32. > :07:38.apply to the pension credit, which is what the poorest pensioners are
:07:39. > :07:44.on. The you want to look at that Mac pensioners, they are the ones you
:07:45. > :07:53.want to most protect. So this 2.5% which is this arbitrary figure...
:07:54. > :07:59.Wife 2.5%? -- why to buy 5%? Effectively it doesn't have any
:08:00. > :08:02.economic rationale. You want pensioners to keep up with the cost
:08:03. > :08:05.of living, average earnings, you don't want them to fall behind the
:08:06. > :08:12.rest of the economy and we must protect pensioners but I think the
:08:13. > :08:16.triple lock... You'd be happy with the double lock? The double lock is
:08:17. > :08:23.the fairest and it is the best for the young because otherwise there is
:08:24. > :08:28.the pressure to increase the state pension age. We heard about the 75p
:08:29. > :08:40.increase in pensions that we had some years ago and your guest talked
:08:41. > :08:48.about this but we have 6.5 million pensioners. There are 77% of
:08:49. > :08:55.pensioners... Is it just your constituents? Why would you make a
:08:56. > :09:01.pledge for pensioners across the party? Why not make a pledge for
:09:02. > :09:05.child benefit? The situation in 1979, the state pension was 26% of
:09:06. > :09:09.average earnings and if the triple lock was to remain until 2020
:09:10. > :09:14.according to John Cridland it would only get. Pensioners are playing
:09:15. > :09:21.catch up. It isn't their fault that we haven't had real wage growth. We
:09:22. > :09:24.need to make sure that we have that, you don't take it out on the
:09:25. > :09:28.pensioners. You aren't taking anything out on the pensioners if
:09:29. > :09:31.you take away the 2.5% as long as you have the double lock to make
:09:32. > :09:36.sure that they don't fall behind the economy and keep up with the cost of
:09:37. > :09:41.living. You must also apply it to the pension credit because that's
:09:42. > :09:45.what the poorest pensioners live on. What's really going on here, I don't
:09:46. > :09:50.want to get stuck too much in this but you are just playing politics
:09:51. > :09:54.because you're never going to be in a position to implement it because
:09:55. > :09:56.you are not a national party. You're trying to trap the UK Government
:09:57. > :10:01.into committing themselves into something that maybe impractical.
:10:02. > :10:07.Pensioners must have dignity in retirement. The problem has been
:10:08. > :10:17.about the increase in the pensionable age and this is a
:10:18. > :10:21.consequential we would make. We have made commitments to pensioners that
:10:22. > :10:24.we would make sure we deliver this under an independent Scotland. We're
:10:25. > :10:30.talking about the response ability have two the elderly. What is your
:10:31. > :10:33.advice to the Conservative Party who obviously thinking about their
:10:34. > :10:38.manifesto? Keeping the triple lock will increase the pressure on the
:10:39. > :10:43.state pension age, pushing it up is unfair. That is unfair on younger
:10:44. > :10:48.people. They will have to pay for the triple lock and they will have a
:10:49. > :10:53.higher state pension age. I think keeping the triple lock until now
:10:54. > :10:57.has been fine, if you want to keep it until 2020, that's the commitment
:10:58. > :11:06.that has been made but beyond that, it's a political construct. She must
:11:07. > :11:11.think the same as you, I would have thought, don't most experts think
:11:12. > :11:15.the same? It's a logical. Is she being cowardly? She's going into the
:11:16. > :11:19.election as a strong leader but she's looking very indecisive on
:11:20. > :11:24.this. You don't really need to make a commitment now on this issue, as
:11:25. > :11:28.long as you committed protecting pensioners properly and the triple
:11:29. > :11:38.lock doesn't protect... If you take to the OBR numbers, we've looked at
:11:39. > :11:42.the House of, is library, pensioners would be ?872 worse off if the
:11:43. > :11:49.triple lock was taken away. That shows you're taking a lot of money
:11:50. > :11:51.from the rest of the population. There is a 30 billion surplus in the
:11:52. > :11:57.National Insurance fund. Which is used to cover everything. The fact
:11:58. > :12:04.that we can protect pensioners and it can be done through the National
:12:05. > :12:10.Insurance fund... Who is the more progressive of the two of you? The
:12:11. > :12:16.SNP call themselves more progressive. I think we need to get
:12:17. > :12:20.away from political nonsense and the 2.5% is a political construct, it
:12:21. > :12:23.isn't logical and it has consequences that are damaging not
:12:24. > :12:28.only for pensioners because increasingly as we go forward Mike
:12:29. > :12:35.the oldest and poorest pensioners will fall behind. Theresa May, the
:12:36. > :12:40.figures are that she has 62% support among the over 65s. If you're going
:12:41. > :12:45.to take a difficult decision for them, wouldn't you be able to do it
:12:46. > :12:53.if you have 62% support? Or if you win with a big majority. We know
:12:54. > :12:57.that the triple lock isn't going to stay for ever, it's a question of
:12:58. > :13:00.when it's going to go because you can't keep on with this arbitrary
:13:01. > :13:02.figure, it isn't sensible policy. Thank you for joining us.
:13:03. > :13:05.One question that has been gripping Westminster insiders
:13:06. > :13:07.is whether Boris Johnson will be "weaponised" for the election
:13:08. > :13:13.His style clearly attracts some voters, but it is very different
:13:14. > :13:19.Mr Johnson gave a speech at the Mansion House tonight
:13:20. > :13:21.and the personality projected was more Foreign
:13:22. > :13:36.What do we know about the role of Boris? Boris Johnson is clear to --
:13:37. > :13:40.keen to show himself after a good Foreign Secretary after his bruising
:13:41. > :13:43.experience when he cancelled a Moscow visit. A source told me it
:13:44. > :13:47.was cancelled under pressure from Number ten because the Prime
:13:48. > :13:52.Minister feared he would market up. The language was a bit more
:13:53. > :13:59.colourful -- would muck it up. There is some speculation about whether he
:14:00. > :14:01.is a semidetached member of the cabinet and whether he would be
:14:02. > :14:06.sidelined in the general election campaign. Tomorrow we are going to
:14:07. > :14:09.see a very Boris Johnson intervention because in an article
:14:10. > :14:23.in the Sun he's going to say that people are wrong to regard Jeremy
:14:24. > :14:27.Corbyn as just eight mutted headed mugwhump, he will say that he is a
:14:28. > :14:34.threat to the UK because he doesn't support Trident. This is an
:14:35. > :14:40.important political message on the day that a opinion poll says that
:14:41. > :14:45.the Conservative lead is down to 16 points. The message is that
:14:46. > :14:46.Conservative supporters shouldn't be complacent, it isn't in the bag.
:14:47. > :14:50.Thank you for joining us. Back in the 2010 general
:14:51. > :14:52.election, UKIP got just 3% It shows a lot can change
:14:53. > :14:59.over a parliament. And it's been quite a journey
:15:00. > :15:02.for the party in the last couple of years and not altogether
:15:03. > :15:05.a smooth one. The party hoped to steal Labour
:15:06. > :15:08.votes among blue collar voters, but the striking feature
:15:09. > :15:10.of the campaign so far is that Theresa May is doing her best
:15:11. > :15:13.to steal UKIP votes John Sweeney has been around
:15:14. > :15:17.the country, looking at how post The Essex Riviera,
:15:18. > :15:25.what's not to like? It was here, three years ago
:15:26. > :15:32.that the great Ukip revolution that was to transform
:15:33. > :15:37.British politics took fire. But now that they're great
:15:38. > :15:43.policy of Brexit is in train, you've got to ask,
:15:44. > :15:49.what's the point of Ukip existing? In the Brexit referendum
:15:50. > :15:53.last year, Clacton raised its middle finger
:15:54. > :15:58.to the European Union. The space invaders from
:15:59. > :16:01.Brussels got zapped here. It is one of the most
:16:02. > :16:03.pro-Brexit towns in We must be a party for all
:16:04. > :16:11.Britain and all Britons. Its former MP, Douglas
:16:12. > :16:13.Carswell, stood down after the Ukip donor Arron Banks
:16:14. > :16:21.said he would run against him. There's is no point to them,
:16:22. > :16:28.they've done their job. I did, yes, and I voted
:16:29. > :16:31.mainly for Douglas So I doubt if I'll
:16:32. > :16:37.vote for them again. Hello, Mr Banks,
:16:38. > :16:43.you're not standing? I wouldn't say that,
:16:44. > :16:50.there's a wonderful local candidate who spent two hours discussing
:16:51. > :16:52.the local party and I decided to
:16:53. > :16:55.stand aside for him. Do you think Ukip
:16:56. > :16:58.nationally is a happy ship? The party's chaos in
:16:59. > :17:09.Clacton is mirrored Ukip's fortunes in Wales
:17:10. > :17:21.illustrated its problems Former Ukip MP and Welsh assembly
:17:22. > :17:30.member Mark Reckless Ukip's kingpin in
:17:31. > :17:41.Wales, Neil Hamilton. His immediate predecessor is Nathan
:17:42. > :17:46.Gill, the king over the water. Well, what's happened
:17:47. > :17:54.to Ukip in Wales has been It's the problem in two words
:17:55. > :18:00.called Neil Hamilton. I think if you look
:18:01. > :18:03.at how Wales was until Neil Hamilton came into Wales
:18:04. > :18:07.and how Wales is now, now, for the first time ever,
:18:08. > :18:09.we have more former For any political
:18:10. > :18:17.party to be in that Only last year, Ukip
:18:18. > :18:22.broke through in the For the local elections next month,
:18:23. > :18:29.they are standing in Ukip at one point had more
:18:30. > :18:34.energy than any other Now, the picture you're painting
:18:35. > :18:41.is one of total chaos. I wouldn't say total
:18:42. > :18:43.chaos but I would say that basically the wind has been
:18:44. > :18:47.blown out of the sails of many of the members and we need
:18:48. > :18:51.to find that wind again, For a lot of people
:18:52. > :18:58.that has now gone. We'd better find it
:18:59. > :19:00.again otherwise there I believe that we can find it again
:19:01. > :19:07.but we need the leader of the party to guide us and direct us
:19:08. > :19:12.and to inspire the membership. Here in Wales, the
:19:13. > :19:14.leader in Wales, I'm The challenge for
:19:15. > :19:26.Ukip is they've lost their great charismatic leader
:19:27. > :19:29.and worse than that, with Brexit being triggered,
:19:30. > :19:32.they've lost the thing You've got a party of
:19:33. > :19:40.rebellion without a cause. Time, perhaps, to quiz
:19:41. > :19:46.Welsh punters about Ukip. The United Kingdom
:19:47. > :19:55.Independence party The contestants are taking our quiz
:19:56. > :20:02.entirely seriously. Ukip wasn't founded
:20:03. > :20:05.by Salman Rushdie but most One semi serious question,
:20:06. > :20:11.out of interest, do you think that after Brexit
:20:12. > :20:14.happening there is a purpose for Yes, certainly, because Nigel
:20:15. > :20:18.Farage, who went to Europe and What job have you got,
:20:19. > :20:23.what is your name? He endorsed the fact
:20:24. > :20:26.that the people, the European MEPs, who are they,
:20:27. > :20:29.what are they doing with us? I think with Ukip now,
:20:30. > :20:42.right, they must make sure that Brexit is
:20:43. > :20:46.delivered in the right way. The folk down the pub reflect Wales
:20:47. > :20:50.as a whole, which gave the thumbs up for Brexit but here,
:20:51. > :20:53.Ukip are not cashing in. How does their leader
:20:54. > :20:55.explained that failure? Isn't the truth that Ukip in Wales
:20:56. > :20:59.is in a bit of a pickle? I don't think it is,
:21:00. > :21:02.the party members are Newsnight has seen
:21:03. > :21:08.e-mails from Mr Hamilton which paints a rather
:21:09. > :21:11.different picture. The e-mails are extraordinarily
:21:12. > :21:14.critical of some Ukip figures including former
:21:15. > :21:19.Ukip leader Nathan Gill. "Gill is a crook and
:21:20. > :21:22.a liar, idle, venal and Yes, I think it is a
:21:23. > :21:31.happy ship in Wales. But you're calling the ex-leader
:21:32. > :21:34.a crook and a liar. He's the one who can't cope
:21:35. > :21:37.with the consequences of We've lost one or two people
:21:38. > :21:42.who were perhaps the cause of And I think we're
:21:43. > :21:48.a united bunch, actually. Mr Gill told Newsnight
:21:49. > :21:50.Mr Hamilton's claims Whatever Mr Hamilton
:21:51. > :21:58.is doing in Wales, it's worth noting that
:21:59. > :22:10.in the general election, all four of Ukip's
:22:11. > :22:12.barons, Nigel Farage, Arron Banks, Douglas Carswell
:22:13. > :22:14.and Mark Reckless have, for now,
:22:15. > :22:16.left the field of battle. Ukip, to be fair, has changed
:22:17. > :22:18.the course of British But its future, well, some people
:22:19. > :22:30.think that's in the past. Now, listen to this from 1987,
:22:31. > :22:37.a BBC report 30 years ago. 1,200 patients may die after
:22:38. > :22:41.receiving treatment which was known The authorities knew
:22:42. > :22:46.about the danger but the government In what is said to be
:22:47. > :22:52.the biggest medical disaster since the health service was set up,
:22:53. > :22:54.more than 1000 people with haemophilia have been infected
:22:55. > :22:58.with Aids antibodies after being treated
:22:59. > :23:00.with what should have been Even when it was discovered that
:23:01. > :23:05.dangerous viruses could be eliminated by heat treating
:23:06. > :23:07.the subject plasma, it took the government four or five
:23:08. > :23:10.critical months before And some blood donated before
:23:11. > :23:16.the treatment was introduced could still be in stock
:23:17. > :23:20.in a potentially lethal pipeline. The legal question is what redress
:23:21. > :23:24.these innocent victims of aids may have against the government which,
:23:25. > :23:27.in crude terms, has contributed Well, the former health secretary,
:23:28. > :23:36.Andy Burnham, who is stepping down as an MP at this election,
:23:37. > :23:40.chose to use his last speech to the Commons to talk about that
:23:41. > :23:43.contaminated blood scandal. From what I know I believe that this
:23:44. > :23:53.scandal amount to a criminal From what I know I believe that this
:23:54. > :23:56.scandal amounts to a criminal Tonight I want to present direct
:23:57. > :24:02.evidence to support that claim. In total, 2,000 deaths have been
:24:03. > :24:05.linked to the contamination, many of them haemophiliacs who have
:24:06. > :24:12.died from HIV or hepatitis. There was an apology from then
:24:13. > :24:15.Prime Minister David Cameron two years ago, but the issue
:24:16. > :24:28.is far from closed. He is the co-founder of the campaign
:24:29. > :24:32.group Tainted Blood. You were probably glad to hear Andy Burnham
:24:33. > :24:37.talking about it. We have been waiting for this for 30 years, yes.
:24:38. > :24:44.You were a child receiving blood through these transfusions. Tell us
:24:45. > :24:52.about your case. I was infected in 1982 when I was five. We know now
:24:53. > :24:58.that the blood transfusions were infected, but they were used anyway.
:24:59. > :25:05.My parents were not told until I was seven or eight. Did they know? Yes,
:25:06. > :25:14.they did, they knew for a while. And you were infected with what?
:25:15. > :25:19.Hepatitis B. And your parents did not tell you? It seems to be the
:25:20. > :25:24.fact that people were not told and there is a terrible consequence. We
:25:25. > :25:27.know patients were being monitored for infectivity trials, especially
:25:28. > :25:31.patients who had not been treated before because they did not know how
:25:32. > :25:40.the progress of the disease would be transmitted in blood. The terrible
:25:41. > :25:44.consequence was that people who were sexually active and in relationships
:25:45. > :25:48.were infecting their partners and there were several people infected
:25:49. > :25:55.during that terrible time. How are you now? I am recovering. I was
:25:56. > :25:59.diagnosed with full-blown aids when I was 16 and missed about four years
:26:00. > :26:06.of my life being in hospital and expecting to die until a new
:26:07. > :26:12.combination therapy came out. But slowly I have been recovering since
:26:13. > :26:21.then. I am pleased to be able to be here now as part of the contaminated
:26:22. > :26:25.blood group, Tainted Blood. What did you think when David Cameron made
:26:26. > :26:29.that apology? A lot of us thought the issue had been dealt with. A lot
:26:30. > :26:33.of us thought so as well and that was the last speech of David Cameron
:26:34. > :26:38.where he made those promises. But since then his apology has found to
:26:39. > :26:43.be pretty hollow and meaningless. The other pledges he made at the
:26:44. > :26:48.time to settle this financially as far as justice is concerned have
:26:49. > :26:55.been pushed aside. What is the legal situation? A lot of people say you
:26:56. > :27:00.take the NHS to court and you get decent compensation because they
:27:01. > :27:04.have done something awful. In 1990, we took the NHS to court with my
:27:05. > :27:09.parents at the time. People were dropping like flies so they came up
:27:10. > :27:15.with a settlement, an out-of-court settlement, in which we were forced
:27:16. > :27:21.to sign waivers basically saying we would not sue for any further money.
:27:22. > :27:26.People needed the money urgently. They did, I had hepatitis C at that
:27:27. > :27:29.point. The government did, but we did not, so they made us sign
:27:30. > :27:38.waivers. You cannot go back for money. Which is why you what now...
:27:39. > :27:43.It is our only rude, a judicial enquiry. You waved away the right.
:27:44. > :27:44.That is an interesting case. Thank you so much.
:27:45. > :27:50.For the moment for election reasons it's more like Policy Ideas Night,
:27:51. > :27:51.not Viewsnight, but Policy Ideas doesn't rhyme with
:27:52. > :27:54.This evening, the journalist George Monbiot offers us
:27:55. > :27:57.a suggestion on the funding of political parties.
:27:58. > :28:12.When you add up the money spent on the European referendum,
:28:13. > :28:15.you find that the Remain side received 48% of the political
:28:16. > :29:53.Say what you like about a General Election campaign,
:29:54. > :29:56.at least we get to discuss politics on this programme, a change
:29:57. > :29:59.from the endless chatter about art and film.
:30:00. > :30:02.But before our culture man takes his long-overdue
:30:03. > :30:06.spell in the sanatorium, he has an important offering for us.
:30:07. > :30:09.It's 50 years since the death of that celebrated icon of cool,
:30:10. > :30:14.Che Guevara, one of the leaders of the Cuban revolution.
:30:15. > :30:17.Now Che's "kid" brother, Juan Martin Guevara,
:30:18. > :30:21.who's in his mid-seventies, has published a memoir called Che,
:30:22. > :30:31.My Brother, about life with the revolutionary.
:30:32. > :30:33.He has given us an exclusive interview.
:30:34. > :30:35.What, if anything, can we learn from the late firebrand
:30:36. > :30:37.of international Marxism, at this moment of
:30:38. > :30:40.Stephen Smith has this exclusive report from Buenos Aires.
:30:41. > :30:43.It's been called the most famous photographs ever taken.
:30:44. > :30:53.It once appeared on student walls more dependably than damp.
:30:54. > :30:56.It's 50 years since the revolutionary was captured
:30:57. > :31:05.In terms of his photographic contact sheets at least,
:31:06. > :31:07.he left a good-looking corpse but what is Che's legacy
:31:08. > :31:24.Newsnight's come to Argentina, Che's birthplace
:31:25. > :31:27.for an exclusive interview with his little brother.
:31:28. > :31:33.Juan Martin Guevara is speaking for the first time
:31:34. > :31:43.Now in his mid-70s, he says he wanted to describe
:31:44. > :31:50.TRANSLATION: I was the little brother and he was the big brother.
:31:51. > :31:56.I used to have great times with him because he was really funny.
:31:57. > :32:04.We used to fight and we called each other rude names.
:32:05. > :32:09.In previously unseen home movies like this one,
:32:10. > :32:12.the precocious Ernesto or Che Guevara, the eldest
:32:13. > :32:16.of the children, already seems to have a certain rebellious streak.
:32:17. > :32:25.A few short years later, in 1959, Che and comrades including
:32:26. > :32:31.Fidel Castro overthrew the regime in Cuba to usher in a revolution.
:32:32. > :32:38.He became Comandante Che and signed the country's banknotes.
:32:39. > :32:42.When Juan Martin was in his teens, he and his family were flown
:32:43. > :32:48.to Havana to meet Castro and the all conquering guerrillas.
:32:49. > :32:51.When we arrived, everyone was on the streets
:32:52. > :33:00.They were happy because they felt liberated from the bloody
:33:01. > :33:08.It was an incredible moment for them.
:33:09. > :33:13.And for me, being just 15 years old, it was even more incredible.
:33:14. > :33:21.Che is seen by many people in the world as a sort of icon of cool.
:33:22. > :33:27.Is that how you remember your brother?
:33:28. > :33:36.He had a shirt that we used to call the weekly shirt
:33:37. > :33:39.because he would wear it the whole week without washing it.
:33:40. > :33:44.He was very untidy and people used to call him pig.
:33:45. > :33:46.He didn't take care of his appearance, at least
:33:47. > :33:56.When he became Che he realised that he was a mirror
:33:57. > :34:12.He looked at this mirror and people looked at it too.
:34:13. > :34:18.Juan Martin takes me on a trip to another part of Buenos Aires.
:34:19. > :34:22.Is he anything like his more famous brother?
:34:23. > :34:29.It's all quite funny and it runs in the genes, doesn't it?
:34:30. > :34:40.We're going to the upscale neighbourhood where the middle-class
:34:41. > :34:49.Their old house stood at this corner but there's no sign of it today.
:34:50. > :34:58.Until now, Argentina's political class, with decidedly mixed views
:34:59. > :35:01.about the late fighter, had been in no hurry
:35:02. > :35:08.In Buenos Aires, there are no signs saying
:35:09. > :35:12.Che Guevara was here but from June, there will be a plaque.
:35:13. > :35:18.We have waited for a long time for the City to recognise my brother
:35:19. > :35:24.lived here and that afterwards he became the famous Che.
:35:25. > :35:31.What's that sound I hear coming from the old convent?
:35:32. > :35:37.You know, with its dark and throbbing intensity,
:35:38. > :35:43.the tango seems the perfect music to conjure the shade of Che Guevara.
:35:44. > :35:47.But what kind of beat exactly are his countrymen
:35:48. > :36:02.Like a thief in the night, recession has stolen people's
:36:03. > :36:05.earning power here and the country moves forward on pigeon toes.
:36:06. > :36:07.There was a national strike earlier this month
:36:08. > :36:31.And so to one of the poorest areas of the city where football is as far
:36:32. > :36:33.from the silky samba stereotype of the South American
:36:34. > :36:36.It was here that Maradona got his break.
:36:37. > :36:43.And like him, the streets around here are inked with Che.
:36:44. > :36:45.He's kind of patron saint to people leading hard lives,
:36:46. > :36:51.discouraging on what other people throw away.
:36:52. > :36:56.With brutal effrontery, international capitalism has also
:36:57. > :37:09.co-opted the revolutionary's face, to sell trinkets and souvenirs.
:37:10. > :37:19."Let's clone Che Guevara," sings satirist Pablo Marchetti.
:37:20. > :37:22."Yes," the song goes on, "but the only way we could pay
:37:23. > :37:24.for that is by selling tonnes of Che merchandise."
:37:25. > :37:31.What does he make of Guevara's legacy?
:37:32. > :37:38.TRANSLATION: Everybody sees different things in Che but we can't
:37:39. > :37:42.deny there is rebellion, courage and consistency about living
:37:43. > :37:44.according to how you think and carrying on with this
:37:45. > :37:52.This is Che Guevara's greatest gesture, giving
:37:53. > :38:03.We shouldn't wait for the arrival of a Che Guevara or a saviour.
:38:04. > :38:06.I think people worship him and hope that someday there will be
:38:07. > :38:14.But others take a rather different view of the boy who grew up to be
:38:15. > :38:22.Some people would say that your brother had
:38:23. > :38:26.a discreditable past, the way that people associated
:38:27. > :38:30.with the Batista regime were punished in show trials
:38:31. > :38:43.TRANSLATION: They did have trials and they had their own lawyers.
:38:44. > :38:46.They were killers and they were sentenced.
:38:47. > :38:50.Not all of them, only those who were killers were sentenced.
:38:51. > :38:54.It should be pointed out that there were 20,000 murders
:38:55. > :39:06.The causes that Che fought for, equality, equity and solidarity,
:39:07. > :39:20.We leave you with the work of the Children's Hospital
:39:21. > :39:22.of Philadelphia, as reported in the journal Nature
:39:23. > :39:25.Communications, where a team led by surgeon Alan Flake has been
:39:26. > :39:27.taking the mess out of pregnancy by gestating his foetuses
:39:28. > :39:31.in a plastic bag, which is a lot harder than it sounds.
:39:32. > :39:35.Nor is it very romantic, and he's only using it on sheep
:39:36. > :39:37.for now, but who knows, it could catch on.
:39:38. > :39:49.# She says soon you'll hear the beat of an unborn heart.
:39:50. > :39:59.# This is the answer you've been searching for so hard.
:40:00. > :40:22.# As I listen for the unborn child's heartbeat.
:40:23. > :40:23.Cold and frosty start to the day in the southern