:00:00. > :00:14.Has our relationship with the EU come to this?
:00:15. > :00:21.Britain's negotiating position in Europe has been misrepresented.
:00:22. > :00:26.Threats against Britain have been issued by European politicians timed
:00:27. > :00:28.to affect the result of the general election.
:00:29. > :00:31.Are things are being said in the heat of an election, that may
:00:32. > :00:34.One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.
:00:35. > :00:37.Both sides think then other is to blame,
:00:38. > :00:40.We'll ask the Irish Foreign Minister if the EU
:00:41. > :00:45.And we'll ask whether the UK should have anticipated the apparent
:00:46. > :00:53.Also tonight, the French election gets nasty
:00:54. > :01:00.Also tonight, the French election gets nasty in a head to head debate.
:01:01. > :01:07.Mr Macron has pulled off his mask. You have used arguments which are
:01:08. > :01:11.shameful and reveal a cold mind of the banker you have always been.
:01:12. > :01:14.And we'll hear from the legendary US conservative shock jock Glenn Beck.
:01:15. > :01:16.Why does he now regret laying the ground for
:01:17. > :01:25.Well, you can argue about who started it,
:01:26. > :01:27.but there has been a decided deterioration in the government's
:01:28. > :01:30.relationship with the EU in the last few days.
:01:31. > :01:32.The Prime Minister thinks there are people in Brussels -
:01:33. > :01:35.not from all the other member states but Brussels itself -
:01:36. > :01:37.who've been stirring things up, and in the process,
:01:38. > :01:42.If that was the case, the effect has probably been to help her.
:01:43. > :01:44.But for the Europeans, the point is simply that they have
:01:45. > :01:47.now agreed their shared negotiating position - that was over the weekend
:01:48. > :01:50.- and if it appears tough well, that's not their doing,
:01:51. > :01:56.You might say this is all just the dynamics of nationalism -
:01:57. > :01:58.one side asserts itself, then so does the other.
:01:59. > :02:00.But has it poisoned the atmosphere for the real
:02:01. > :02:21.We'll hear EU and UK perspectives, but first here's Nick Watt.
:02:22. > :02:29.# Don't know why there's no sun up in the sky, Stormy weather... The
:02:30. > :02:33.outlook for Theresa May in this election has so far been pretty
:02:34. > :02:42.benign but an ill wind Lewin from the continent today, prompting
:02:43. > :02:50.another occasion for Harold Wilson's quip, events, dear boy. This follows
:02:51. > :02:56.a damaging leak from Brussels and an FT report demanding the UK pays a
:02:57. > :03:00.Brexit bill of upwards of 100 billion euros. Threats against
:03:01. > :03:03.Britain have been issued by EU politicians and officials. All of
:03:04. > :03:06.these acts have been deliberately timed to affect the result of the
:03:07. > :03:13.general election that will take place on the 8th of June. Theresa
:03:14. > :03:17.May's strongly worded intervention highlights her belief that the
:03:18. > :03:24.strongly worded rhetoric from Brussels means and eight to fight
:03:25. > :03:27.Britain's corner. Labour and the Liberal Democrats condemned her
:03:28. > :03:32.language but there was agreement that the proposed Brexit bill was
:03:33. > :03:37.far too high. Until now, the EU has suggested the UK pays around 60
:03:38. > :03:41.billion euros. That is calculated by saying the UK should be responsible
:03:42. > :03:47.for a third of its share of the EU budget up to the end of 2020, that
:03:48. > :03:50.it needs to pay its share of the EU's deficit and pension
:03:51. > :03:58.liabilities, but all of that will be reduced when the UK's share of EU
:03:59. > :04:03.acids is taken into account. Today's higher figure was calculated after
:04:04. > :04:07.France and Poland took the lead in saying Britain should pay all of its
:04:08. > :04:13.share of the EU budget until December 2020, and it should not
:04:14. > :04:16.have any share of the EU's assets. This was too high even for one
:04:17. > :04:23.Britain's most passionate pro-Europeans. Yes, the risk is
:04:24. > :04:27.particularly in these early stages where one is staking out positions,
:04:28. > :04:32.and not least in reaction perhaps to the re-kind of belligerent combat of
:04:33. > :04:38.language which has been emanating from the British government and the
:04:39. > :04:44.British Brexit press and so on for month after month after month. But
:04:45. > :04:49.the EU 27 starts adopting its own less than reasonable positions. The
:04:50. > :04:54.former Deputy Prime Minister believes the EU is newly emboldened
:04:55. > :04:59.after the far right Geert Wilders was defeated in the Dutch election
:05:00. > :05:03.and finds that Emmanuel Macron may win the French presidential
:05:04. > :05:09.election. The risk is the rest of the EU assumed that they're back to
:05:10. > :05:12.business as usual in terms of the development of the European Union,
:05:13. > :05:17.they are out of the woods, they have dodged the bullet as far as populism
:05:18. > :05:20.is concerned and all will be well. There is always a danger on both
:05:21. > :05:25.sides that both sides overstate their relative strength to each
:05:26. > :05:31.other. The worst bust up so far dates back to Number Ten dinner last
:05:32. > :05:33.week when Theresa May hosted the European Commission President
:05:34. > :05:40.Jean-Claude Juncker. Downing Street believed his aides leaked details to
:05:41. > :05:46.undermine the UK. Were going to have to get used this sort of language
:05:47. > :05:50.come out from Brussels. Brussels does not negotiate in secret, it
:05:51. > :05:54.negotiates publicly. There will be a lot of rhetoric, a great deal of hot
:05:55. > :05:58.air, and if we are going to achieve our goals, the best thing the
:05:59. > :06:06.government can do is largely ignore Mr Pitt and focus on negotiations
:06:07. > :06:11.going. -- largely ignore it. One can equally say this is not in our
:06:12. > :06:16.interests either. I can understand why the Prime Minister is critical
:06:17. > :06:22.of it. It serves no purpose whatsoever. The EU's chief
:06:23. > :06:29.negotiator, Michel Barnier, also attended the dinner. The real deals
:06:30. > :06:33.are always done behind-the-scenes. We know we have to get the French
:06:34. > :06:38.election out of the way, we know we have to get the German election out
:06:39. > :06:42.of the way. In Germany you have Chancellor Shilts or Chancellor
:06:43. > :06:47.Merkel. I think economic imperative will always prevail and that will be
:06:48. > :06:54.an important thing, not kind of after-dinner leak. Theresa May will
:06:55. > :06:58.be hoping for brighter climbs on the campaign trail, after being granted
:06:59. > :07:03.her a regional election wish, that voters should have Brexit uppermost
:07:04. > :07:08.in their minds. The past because she in this most controlling of Prime
:07:09. > :07:15.Minister 's will not be in charge of that capricious force, events.
:07:16. > :07:18.Nick what there. A lot seems to have happened since that dinner.
:07:19. > :07:22.I spoke to the Irish Foreign Minister Charles Flanagan in Dublin.
:07:23. > :07:25.I asked him whether the leaking of details from a Downing Street
:07:26. > :07:27.dinner that took place between Theresa May,
:07:28. > :07:29.David Davis and Jean-Claude Juncker could be interpreted as an attempt
:07:30. > :07:31.to interfere in the British election campaign.
:07:32. > :07:34.I wouldn't like to see any undue interference in any sovereign
:07:35. > :07:36.election campaign in any part of the European Union.
:07:37. > :07:41.Maybe unfortunately I wasn't at the dinner.
:07:42. > :07:44.So I can't really comment on what took place or otherwise.
:07:45. > :07:46.But what I will say is that the reports afterwards
:07:47. > :07:50.from both sides seemed to suggest that a meeting took
:07:51. > :07:54.place in an atmosphere of certain cordiality.
:07:55. > :08:01.But as soon as the British election is over, and certainly not before
:08:02. > :08:03.then because people will be actively campaigning, but as soon
:08:04. > :08:06.as the election is over it's expected that negotiations proper
:08:07. > :08:08.will commence, along the lines of the parameters set down
:08:09. > :08:15.The 100 billion euro bill for leaving the EU, is that real?
:08:16. > :08:18.Well, you can talk about the 100 billion,
:08:19. > :08:29.I think we need to agree early on the principle
:08:30. > :08:32.of the liabilities and, of course there is going to be a liability.
:08:33. > :08:35.There have been commitments already entered into by all members
:08:36. > :08:43.I think there was a big issue over the actual price,
:08:44. > :08:45.because the commission had suggested the principles that got you
:08:46. > :08:47.there would add up to about 60 billion.
:08:48. > :08:50.And then the French and the Poles came in with an alternative way
:08:51. > :08:53.of measuring it that took it up to 100 billion.
:08:54. > :08:56.Now that may seem like quite a lot of money to people,
:08:57. > :09:00.Which is the right way, the Commission way,
:09:01. > :09:04.I accept that the figures that have been mentioned and proposed
:09:05. > :09:08.I acknowledge that perhaps some people in the UK have been taken
:09:09. > :09:11.by surprise at the amount of money, but there was always going to be
:09:12. > :09:15.an element of liability in regard to funds already committed.
:09:16. > :09:17.I think early on in the negotiations, and this
:09:18. > :09:20.is what Commissioner Michel Barnier was saying, early on in
:09:21. > :09:24.negotiations, we need to work out A, the manner in which the sum will be
:09:25. > :09:31.And then, of course, how this is going to be paid over
:09:32. > :09:35.Let me ask you this, is it reasonable for the British not
:09:36. > :09:38.to get a share of the EU's assets, netted off the share
:09:39. > :09:42.Because the suggestion has been that the British
:09:43. > :09:48.All these are issues that, with respect, will be on the agenda
:09:49. > :09:52.for an early meeting of the negotiating team.
:09:53. > :09:54.Of course there are assets and of course it is important to
:09:55. > :09:56.acknowledge that the European Union has benefited greatly
:09:57. > :09:59.by the influence and the involvement of the United Kingdom over
:10:00. > :10:06.I am sorry, I am not talking about all of that, I am talking
:10:07. > :10:10.If we have a share of the liabilities, shouldn't a share
:10:11. > :10:16.Of course, and I'm satisfied that will be factored in
:10:17. > :10:27.ECJ, the European Court jurisdiction over EU citizens in the UK.
:10:28. > :10:29.So the British are saying we are happy to keep
:10:30. > :10:31.the EU citizens here, that is not a problem.
:10:32. > :10:34.Then being told, actually the European Court must have
:10:35. > :10:35.jurisdiction over the rights of those citizens and
:10:36. > :10:43.Well, there will be a transition period.
:10:44. > :10:46.Obviously, this is a very complex legal and political issue
:10:47. > :10:50.that is going to take quite some time to unravel.
:10:51. > :10:57.I am a solicitor, I know there is no such thing as an easy divorce.
:10:58. > :11:01.And then once the divorce terms are agreed we have then to sit down
:11:02. > :11:03.and negotiate the future relationship between
:11:04. > :11:08.the United Kingdom and the European Union.
:11:09. > :11:11.There has been a lot of rhetoric over the past number of days
:11:12. > :11:14.but I have spoken to each and every one of my 26 EU foreign
:11:15. > :11:17.ministerial colleagues over the past number of months.
:11:18. > :11:22.At no stage have I detect did any intent or any disposition or any
:11:23. > :11:25.wish or desire on the part of the European Union to exact
:11:26. > :11:33.What we're talking about is how to deal with the issue of
:11:34. > :11:36.the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union after 44
:11:37. > :11:42.I heard what the British Prime Minister has said,
:11:43. > :11:45.that no deal is better than a bad deal.
:11:46. > :11:50.I am not sure I agree with that because no deal will amount
:11:51. > :11:52.to a very challenging situation which, in my opinion,
:11:53. > :11:56.will not only be bad for the UK, but will be bad for Ireland
:11:57. > :11:58.and will also be bad for the entire European Union.
:11:59. > :12:03.It is upon the negotiating parties to ensure that we do get a deal
:12:04. > :12:06.and a deal that will ultimately result in as close as
:12:07. > :12:09.possible a relationship between the United Kingdom
:12:10. > :12:21.and the European Union, albeit from outside the single market.
:12:22. > :12:24.Charles Flanagan there, the Irish Foreign Minister.
:12:25. > :12:26.Let's discuss now with Tory MEP and leading
:12:27. > :12:34.With me here is Radoslav Sikorski, the former Polish Foreign Minister.
:12:35. > :12:41.We know Brexit is causing ructions. What has got asked to this point as
:12:42. > :12:49.opposed to where we were two weeks ago, who's to blame? Leaks are not
:12:50. > :12:54.helpful, but equally, an electioneering atmosphere heightens
:12:55. > :13:00.the motions. I don't think serious governments respond to newspaper
:13:01. > :13:05.articles. We need serious people to discuss serious issues because
:13:06. > :13:10.otherwise this could be the beginning of a train wreck. Is
:13:11. > :13:15.Theresa May's government and Boris Johnson and David Davis, are they a
:13:16. > :13:21.serious government? What was leaked and Theresa May has confirmed... She
:13:22. > :13:24.hasn't really... In effect. We learned nothing else that we have
:13:25. > :13:29.heard from British politicians on the record. I think what the EU
:13:30. > :13:32.delegation was shocked by was when they realised this wasn't
:13:33. > :13:39.propaganda, that they really believed in their own propaganda,
:13:40. > :13:42.and they tried to signal, look, you need to become more realistic. Of
:13:43. > :13:47.course, in the terms of the British election campaign, it makes sense to
:13:48. > :13:52.make the EU the enemy. But of course, that is a very dangerous
:13:53. > :13:56.game. Daniel Hannan, it is a dangerous game, isn't it? If Theresa
:13:57. > :14:00.May wins the election she will have to deal with these people and been
:14:01. > :14:10.negotiating with them? I expect that to be a cordial
:14:11. > :14:15.negotiation. It is what people say on the record that matters. Leaks
:14:16. > :14:19.you cannot be held to, but you have to think about what you say on paper
:14:20. > :14:23.and if you look at the EU formal position, the guidelines agreed in
:14:24. > :14:27.the short meeting, they are not so far off what the British Government
:14:28. > :14:35.is pushing for. We agree there should be a free trade agreement and
:14:36. > :14:42.we agree on military and security. We agree on not being a hardboard
:14:43. > :14:47.and in either -- a hard order in Ireland. It does not need to be a
:14:48. > :14:51.process that spins out of control but it was fortunate to have this
:14:52. > :14:57.leak and story about the money. Was Theresa May right to ramp it up by
:14:58. > :15:01.saying they are interfering in the election, reminiscent of claims
:15:02. > :15:06.about Putin and Donald Trump. This was not a situation of her making.
:15:07. > :15:10.She has this supposedly private dinner and finds herself being
:15:11. > :15:15.traduced in an outrageous way in a foreign newspaper and we get this
:15:16. > :15:20.100 billion, a suspiciously round figure, you might say it has been
:15:21. > :15:24.plucked out of the air for theatrical effects. It would be
:15:25. > :15:30.bizarre for her not to say this reminds us of the magnitude of the
:15:31. > :15:32.choice in front of the country. Do you want me in our corner or would
:15:33. > :15:37.you rather have Jeremy Corbyn batting for Britain in these talks?
:15:38. > :15:43.Do you think the EU has been blameless on this? You accept the
:15:44. > :15:47.leak is not good and inner sense provoked the latest scuffles. It was
:15:48. > :15:58.60 billion and it seems to have gone up to 100 billion. The EU is a ?15
:15:59. > :16:07.trillion economy. 60, 100 billion, is not... It is quite a lot to us.
:16:08. > :16:10.Ten of that is liabilities of British bureaucrats' pensions. Why
:16:11. > :16:18.should Continental taxpayers pay for that? This is an outcome of a budget
:16:19. > :16:22.in whose negotiation written participated. I think the figure
:16:23. > :16:27.could be cut significantly if Britain gets an extension on the
:16:28. > :16:31.negotiations because then some of the liabilities will be covered. I
:16:32. > :16:37.think there are ways of handling it. There needs to be trust and goodwill
:16:38. > :16:44.on both sides. Otherwise we will have a really mean train wreck.
:16:45. > :16:49.Everybody agrees there needs to be goodwill. Daniel Hannan, if the bill
:16:50. > :16:53.is 100 billion, whatever it is, is it worth Britain paying the bill to
:16:54. > :17:00.get a deal, or would you say no deal is better than a deal that involves
:17:01. > :17:05.tens of billions? It is a statement of the obvious that no deal is
:17:06. > :17:15.better than a bad deal. If the bill were a trillion, everybody would
:17:16. > :17:18.accept, except Nick Clegg. I think the only fair way of resolving the
:17:19. > :17:23.financial issue is to ask an independent tribunal, an
:17:24. > :17:27.international court or other arbitrator, to look at the assets
:17:28. > :17:33.and liabilities and both sides to agree to abide by the outcome which
:17:34. > :17:37.will take the issue off the table. Alan legal obligation is probably
:17:38. > :17:42.smaller but we should be prepared to act in a spirit of goodwill and
:17:43. > :17:46.these are important friends and allies. I will take from that that
:17:47. > :17:48.paying quite a bit of money is part of that. But not 100 billion.
:17:49. > :17:49.The general election maybe preoccupying us,
:17:50. > :17:52.but large parts of the country get to vote tomorrow.
:17:53. > :17:54.There are lots of local elections around Britain -
:17:55. > :17:56.among others, county council elections in England,
:17:57. > :18:01.And there will also be elections for six metro mayors
:18:02. > :18:04.around England - a new construct,
:18:05. > :18:07.and a potentially quite important one - a George Osborne legacy.
:18:08. > :18:10.These are seen as the big names that will develop city regions
:18:11. > :18:13.One of the hardest fought of those contests is for
:18:14. > :18:24.Katie Razall has been there to see how that battle is playing out.
:18:25. > :18:34.It is the only manufacturer of litmus test paper in the UK and is
:18:35. > :18:38.based just outside Dudley. Here they produce the testing papers used in
:18:39. > :18:41.school chemistry and laboratories across Britain and beyond. With
:18:42. > :18:47.voter apathy an issue, will workers here vote in the region's first
:18:48. > :18:52.mayor? I don't think one person can make a massive change. It is an
:18:53. > :18:58.important step for us, something we cannot take light-heartedly. It
:18:59. > :19:02.depends what they stand for as to whether I will vote. You only have a
:19:03. > :19:07.day or two to find out. That is enough time. With the West Midlands
:19:08. > :19:12.mayoral election is seen as a litmus test for what might happen on June
:19:13. > :19:15.the 8th, where better than Johnson test papers to test out whether this
:19:16. > :19:22.significant political battle ground might change from Tory to Labour
:19:23. > :19:28.come the general election. The Conservative candidates had a
:19:29. > :19:32.heftier war chest at his disposal, spending up to 1 million before
:19:33. > :19:37.election rules kicked in. With six contests across England, the former
:19:38. > :19:42.John Lewis managing director is seen as the Tories' best hope of
:19:43. > :19:48.clinching a job and on Labour territory it would bring predictions
:19:49. > :19:53.of a LAN side in June. The fact we think it is all to play for shows
:19:54. > :19:57.how far we have come in this campaign. You cannot run it entirely
:19:58. > :20:00.as a business but there are transferable skills and the most
:20:01. > :20:06.important thing is to build a team of leaders. This is about the group
:20:07. > :20:10.of people who would lead and I have shown an ability to bring people
:20:11. > :20:20.together and work as a team. The new mayor will oversee 28 Parliamentary
:20:21. > :20:26.constituencies. 2 million residents vote for a mayor who will have a
:20:27. > :20:34.budget of 36.5 million a year, less than 1% of the turnover Andy Street
:20:35. > :20:36.presided over at John Lewis. It is not conservative blue but Labour
:20:37. > :20:42.read that appears to have the advantage in this region. Labour
:20:43. > :20:48.have an active campaign based to mobilise. In this heavily Brexit
:20:49. > :20:51.voting area, Sion Simon has come up with a slogan that sums up what he
:20:52. > :20:57.believes the mayor can do. He wants to keep the campaign locally
:20:58. > :21:02.focused. Take back control, I have heard that before. I have made this
:21:03. > :21:08.argument for seven years. Standing down from the Commons in 2010 to
:21:09. > :21:12.campaign said mayoral devolution in the West Midlands and taking back
:21:13. > :21:17.control is about us here being in charge of our destiny, running our
:21:18. > :21:22.own services, being in charge of our own money. Don't underestimate how
:21:23. > :21:25.much of the shark the election of a Conservative mayor will be to the
:21:26. > :21:31.Labour establishment that runs so much of this region. With just over
:21:32. > :21:34.a month to the general election it would allow the Conservatives to
:21:35. > :21:41.claim they have broken down the red wall in one of Labour's heartlands,
:21:42. > :21:47.and perhaps can become a party of more than the English shires and
:21:48. > :21:53.suburbs. In June, a uniform swing of 5% to the Conservatives would see
:21:54. > :21:59.six Labour seats in this region and. 10%, as Tony Blair experienced, five
:22:00. > :22:06.more would become conservative. If Labour does better than predicted, a
:22:07. > :22:11.uniform 5% swing would deliver them one conservative seat, 10% swing,
:22:12. > :22:17.three. Voters in the region's first mayoral contests get two votes, a
:22:18. > :22:22.first choice and second preference if that candidate is eliminated,
:22:23. > :22:25.which makes this battle interesting to outside eyes, because it will
:22:26. > :22:32.give an insight into where supporters of the smaller parties
:22:33. > :22:35.might transfer allegiance. Whether Ukip voters prefer Labour or the
:22:36. > :22:43.Tories for example. Is there much of a market for a Liberal Democrat
:22:44. > :22:48.offer? People are unhappy with the cuts the Conservative government has
:22:49. > :22:52.implemented in this region and I am picking up discontent among Labour
:22:53. > :22:59.voters. I do not think it is as clear as you suggest. It is an open
:23:00. > :23:04.situation. Ukip, has the party lost its appeal since the referendum? I
:23:05. > :23:08.do not have trouble convincing people there is a purpose for Ukip.
:23:09. > :23:14.Sometimes they say what is the point of Ukip? But when you explain Brexit
:23:15. > :23:19.is a long way away and there are a lot of negotiations to do. We want
:23:20. > :23:23.to be a mainstream party and there is a place for something that is not
:23:24. > :23:33.Labour or Conservative. The Green Party candidate hopes to benefit
:23:34. > :23:39.with widespread dissatisfaction. A lot of people vote green because
:23:40. > :23:44.they are fed up with the big three. It is about saying the current plans
:23:45. > :23:48.have not worked. This region voted Brexit because they said we do not
:23:49. > :23:53.feel we have power over our lives and want to try something new. The
:23:54. > :23:57.Communist Party candidate was clear where his second preference votes
:23:58. > :24:02.might go, but his party is not putting up candidates in June
:24:03. > :24:07.because they liked Jeremy Corbyn's Labour so much. The polls suggest we
:24:08. > :24:11.will do well in the first round and then there will be the elimination
:24:12. > :24:17.of the smaller parties and then a fight between Tory and Labour and
:24:18. > :24:24.the majority of people will be voting for me will vote for Labour
:24:25. > :24:27.and I am in favour of that. Election forecasting is inexact but after
:24:28. > :24:30.tomorrow we will be clear on what colours may emerge.
:24:31. > :24:33.To the other election now - our third of the evening.
:24:34. > :24:37.It was fight night - the big televised debate
:24:38. > :24:40.between the two candidates, the liberal internationalist,
:24:41. > :24:42.Emmanuel Macron, and the far right populist, Marine Le Pen.
:24:43. > :24:44.This was a huge test for Macron in particular,
:24:45. > :24:47.because some of his own supporters wondered whether the populist case
:24:48. > :24:49.always tends to sound more immediately gratifying than the
:24:50. > :24:51.liberal one, whatever the long term merits of the argument.
:24:52. > :25:04.TRANSLATION: I am telling you your plan is hidden. You talked about
:25:05. > :25:11.gifts. But giving money back. To give back money. To the French, that
:25:12. > :25:18.is a gift? Who else would you like to give it to? When you lower taxes,
:25:19. > :25:24.if you have not also lowered spending, all listening understand.
:25:25. > :25:28.You are not lowering spending. You will either increase the deficit and
:25:29. > :25:32.depend on financial markets or increased taxes during your
:25:33. > :25:36.presidency but you are not saying so, or increase the debt and at that
:25:37. > :25:41.moment our children will lose out and I do not want anything to do
:25:42. > :25:47.with those solutions. Those exchanges do not work in voice-over.
:25:48. > :25:51.Gabriel, what did you take out of it?
:25:52. > :25:58.It was pretty scrappy and the exchange indicative of a lot of it.
:25:59. > :26:03.Emmanuel Macron on top of his brief throwing out facts and figures and
:26:04. > :26:06.policies and Marine Le Pen, less detail and fewer policies, but
:26:07. > :26:11.coming back with stinging one-liners. You just want to give
:26:12. > :26:17.gifts to big corporations. They will play well with some people who feel
:26:18. > :26:22.let down by the status quo. It was an angry exchange. Talking over each
:26:23. > :26:28.other. The moderators lost control, pleading with them to let the others
:26:29. > :26:33.speak. It was messy. Macron accused Le Pen of lying and talking rubbish.
:26:34. > :26:44.He must have said mad am Le Pen 100 times. How start the choices to the
:26:45. > :26:49.voters. It was not two politicians vying for the centre ground but two
:26:50. > :26:56.politicians with starkly different visions. Marine Le Pen populist,
:26:57. > :27:01.even nationalistic. Emmanuel Macron internationalist, globalist and
:27:02. > :27:07.liberal. I suppose the crux is did the debate, probably the biggest
:27:08. > :27:12.single event of the campaign, did it move the dial enough to change the
:27:13. > :27:20.story of the polls, which is Macron is probably 60%, Le Pen about 40.
:27:21. > :27:23.Roughly that. 59, 40 one. If as a French photo you were looking for
:27:24. > :27:29.somebody who looks presidential and in command of their brief, who looks
:27:30. > :27:34.competent, like they may be comfortable from day one on the job,
:27:35. > :27:38.they might go for Macron, but they probably have made up their minds
:27:39. > :27:44.already to vote for him. The question is who won the debate to
:27:45. > :27:48.present themselves as a candidate of change? Neither comes from an
:27:49. > :27:54.established party. Where Le Pen did well was pushing back on Macron's
:27:55. > :27:58.presentation of himself as somebody who can shake things up. She came
:27:59. > :28:01.out with the problems France is facing and put them at the door of
:28:02. > :28:08.Emmanuel Macron. Whether that is enough to shift voters into how
:28:09. > :28:10.camp, or keep them away from the polls, we will see on Sunday.
:28:11. > :28:12.Well, the US knows a lot about the appeal of arguments based
:28:13. > :28:16.Not just from President Trump, but also the tradition of shock
:28:17. > :28:19.jocks, with strong views and big audiences.
:28:20. > :28:21.In that category is Glenn Beck, one of the giants -
:28:22. > :28:24.having served on Fox TV, his own radio and TV programmes.
:28:25. > :28:26.He's a radical conservative Mormon, with idiosyncratic views.
:28:27. > :28:37.Now here's the thing - Glenn Beck, unlike some
:28:38. > :28:45.This is him talking about President Obama. He has exposed himself as a
:28:46. > :28:50.guy with a deep-seated hatred for white people, the white culture, I
:28:51. > :28:56.don't know what it is. You cannot say he does not like white people.
:28:57. > :29:02.70% of the people we see everyday is white. I am not saying he does not
:29:03. > :29:04.like white people. I say he has a problem. I believe he is a racist.
:29:05. > :29:06.Now here's the thing - Glenn Beck, unlike some
:29:07. > :29:08.of his conservative shock jock counterparts,
:29:09. > :29:12.Beck has even compared him to Hitler.
:29:13. > :29:14.A sign of some conservative confusion over how
:29:15. > :29:19.Perhaps these kinds of wrinkles come with a reconfiguration
:29:20. > :29:21.of old political divides into new ones.
:29:22. > :29:23.A little earlier, I spoke to Glenn Beck about his current
:29:24. > :29:32.political leanings, and his regrets of the past.
:29:33. > :29:35.Well, I had such a low bar for him that it's, you know,
:29:36. > :29:43.I think he's doing fine for what he was saying
:29:44. > :29:56.I'm glad he's not getting done some of the stuff that he wanted to do.
:29:57. > :30:01.I'm gravely concerned about his attack on the press,
:30:02. > :30:03.his constant, relentless attack on the press, even though
:30:04. > :30:06.part of me feels good that they are getting their head
:30:07. > :30:13.But this isn't going to go anywhere, except bad places.
:30:14. > :30:16.The divide is getting worse and worse in America and I don't
:30:17. > :30:21.think it's based on anything that resembles facts or principles.
:30:22. > :30:24.Why do you think he appeals to the public?
:30:25. > :30:26.Were they gullible, were they stupid?
:30:27. > :30:32.I think you can relate to it with Brexit.
:30:33. > :30:37.I think people are tired of feeling though they're being pushed around,
:30:38. > :30:40.feeling as though somebody else that is disconnected from them
:30:41. > :30:46.They are tired of the playing by the rules and then
:30:47. > :30:53.having the banks win, having the people in
:30:54. > :30:57.Washington or in London, who you know are corrupt,
:30:58. > :31:04.I think people are just tired of that.
:31:05. > :31:06.Do you think Trump or other populists, take Marine Le Pen
:31:07. > :31:11.in France, do you think they are creating the anger
:31:12. > :31:15.among the public, or are they reflecting and anger?
:31:16. > :31:24.To speak about Donald Trump, I think he recognised the anger
:31:25. > :31:27.and is playing into the anger and then magnifying it.
:31:28. > :31:30.Where a truly great leader sees anger and then says,
:31:31. > :31:33.let's channel this into something positive and move in a different
:31:34. > :31:39.direction, instead we are seeing people channel it into even more
:31:40. > :31:41.anger and populism and nationalism, which, as Europe knows,
:31:42. > :31:48.Let's talk about you, because you're sitting here,
:31:49. > :31:51.you're sounding like a very measured guy and you've got your
:31:52. > :31:55.criticisms of Trump and those who would seek to divide.
:31:56. > :31:59.I mean, where have you been for the last 20 years?
:32:00. > :32:01.You've been doing exactly that stuff.
:32:02. > :32:03.You've been making comments about Mexicans.
:32:04. > :32:05.You said Mexico is a country being overtaken by lawbreakers
:32:06. > :32:14.You have written a book called It Is About Islam.
:32:15. > :32:19.and knew what I know now, I would do it differently.
:32:20. > :32:23.Knowing what I knew then, I didn't understand it and I think
:32:24. > :32:26.that what is happening, at least in America with the press,
:32:27. > :32:33.This is why I keep saying to people like Samantha Bee
:32:34. > :32:37.and others here in America - Stephen Colbert - is stop.
:32:38. > :32:44.You are assuming that half of the country is,
:32:45. > :32:49.you know, either stupid, or they are going...
:32:50. > :32:52.If I break it for these, they are going to get it
:32:53. > :33:01.So, right now, the left has switched places in America and the media
:33:02. > :33:07.We are all involved, whether we are on Facebook,
:33:08. > :33:11.or we are on a national broadcast, we are all making the same mistake
:33:12. > :33:13.to one degree or another, and I, unfortunately,
:33:14. > :33:16.One thing, and in your career is negativism because you basically
:33:17. > :33:33.You are a defender of the Constitution.
:33:34. > :33:35.Indeed Obama was a constitutionally elected president, and yet you do
:33:36. > :33:38.spend your whole time pulling them down.
:33:39. > :33:41.Well, OK, first of all, I am a political commentator in America,
:33:42. > :33:51.Unfortunately, that's what people pay to hear me talk about.
:33:52. > :33:55.Beyond that, I am not calling for them to be toppled or anything.
:33:56. > :33:59.I respect the office of the President, I respect
:34:00. > :34:04.I just feel what each of them are doing is an affront
:34:05. > :34:16.The novelist and screenwriter Hanif Kureishi burst onto the scene
:34:17. > :34:18.30 years ago with an Oscar nomination for his debut film,
:34:19. > :34:23.Until then, you would never have believed a film about a laundrette
:34:24. > :34:28.Well, Kureishi is now in his 60s, but as the one-time enfant terrible
:34:29. > :34:32.of Anglo-Asian letters, he shows little sign of mellowing.
:34:33. > :34:36.His new novel, The Nothing, published tomorrow,
:34:37. > :34:39.is about the sexual jealously of an ageing cuckold.
:34:40. > :34:41.Now interestingly, the villain of the piece is based on a conman
:34:42. > :34:45.who went to prison after swindling Kureishi out of his savings,
:34:46. > :34:56.as he's been explaining to our culture editor Stephen Smith.
:34:57. > :35:01.He's usually sweaty with anxiety and smelling of drink, if not pubs.
:35:02. > :35:03.This overgrown schoolboy with his balding hair,
:35:04. > :35:11.Some disaster involving his wallet, a train, a change of trousers
:35:12. > :35:14.and perhaps a woman or two has inevitably befallen him
:35:15. > :35:25.I dislike unsightly people when I don't pity them.
:35:26. > :35:27.They are always at a disadvantage when it comes to entitlement.
:35:28. > :35:38.If Eddie were good looking, we wouldn't be having this trouble.
:35:39. > :35:40.Eddie is an unprincipled Soho chancer and the
:35:41. > :35:42.third corner of a love triangle in Hanif Kureishi's
:35:43. > :35:47.He is modelled on a real-life money man who cheated
:35:48. > :35:54.The first person I rang up after I found out,
:35:55. > :36:00.gone to my bank and found out my accounts had been emptied,
:36:01. > :36:09.the first person I rang up was the man who did it.
:36:10. > :36:13.And I've remember ringing him up and him expressing shock.
:36:14. > :36:15.And I expressed shock and he came down.
:36:16. > :36:20.Later on, when you look back, obviously you think you're
:36:21. > :36:24.I spent quite a lot of time with him and I became
:36:25. > :36:26.quite interested in him, as well as hating him.
:36:27. > :36:28.So I found myself writing a story about a conman.
:36:29. > :36:32.But one of the things that I noticed that's happened in the culture
:36:33. > :36:35.recently is the criminals are not really any more on the margins.
:36:36. > :36:38.That the criminality has moved, as it were, to the centre.
:36:39. > :36:41.So after the financial crash of 2008, we began to realise
:36:42. > :36:46.that the banks and the hedge funds and other financiers, and so on,
:36:47. > :36:56.We took it for granted that the good things, equality,
:36:57. > :37:00.feminism, antiracism, freedom for sexual minorities,
:37:01. > :37:05.The good things would be good for everyone.
:37:06. > :37:13.Nigel Farage and I come from the same place.
:37:14. > :37:16.We're very, very similar in our background.
:37:17. > :37:19.Indeed, lived in a little village called Downe,
:37:20. > :37:24.just outside where I was born and brought up.
:37:25. > :37:26.And the idea that we're going back to England
:37:27. > :37:30.in the 1950s is a horrifying, narrowing and enervating idea.
:37:31. > :37:33.I think there's been a real shift and I don't think people believe any
:37:34. > :37:39.It's a tragedy, the collapse of the left.
:37:40. > :37:42.And Corbyn is a tragedy, really, for the Labour Party,
:37:43. > :37:49.And was a reaction to Blair and I think we all thought
:37:50. > :37:53.it was a good time that we got someone really left wing in.
:37:54. > :38:01.At the beginning, I thought Corbyn was a good idea.
:38:02. > :38:04.And I think, like a lot of people, thought, at last, we were returning
:38:05. > :38:11.I think we need a real rethink on the left
:38:12. > :38:18.about what a progressive left in Britain and in Europe would mean.
:38:19. > :38:23.I think Macron in France, actually, has been rather illuminating
:38:24. > :38:31.Let's hope something similar could happen in the UK.
:38:32. > :38:49.These have been themes of Kureishi's work since he won an Oscar nod 30
:38:50. > :38:53.years ago for the screenplay of My Beautiful Launderette.
:38:54. > :38:57.I want to do some work for a change, instead of all this hanging around.
:38:58. > :39:00.He says racism has been getting worse and Muslims
:39:01. > :39:18.Is medieval, is backward, hates gays and hates women
:39:19. > :39:25.Millions, indeed a billion people have been captured
:39:26. > :39:29.Don't you think most people, or a lot of people,
:39:30. > :39:36.I mean, at least 7 million people voted for Marine Le Pen
:39:37. > :39:41.and Marine Le Pen is a full on right-wing fascist
:39:42. > :39:46.and comes from, as it were, a proper fascist background.
:39:47. > :39:48.And during the Brexit campaign and so on,
:39:49. > :39:56.and during the Trump election, we have seen a huge rise in racism.
:39:57. > :39:59.And the establishment of this new paradigm of the Muslim,
:40:00. > :40:05.People might be watching this saying we have a Mayor
:40:06. > :40:13.You know, it's no longer exceptional to see minority MPs,
:40:14. > :40:25.In a lot of ways, things have changed for the
:40:26. > :40:28.There has been huge changes for the better,
:40:29. > :40:31.Certainly far more, say, in Britain than in France,
:40:32. > :40:34.where there is real separation, you feel, between the Muslim
:40:35. > :40:36.population and these so-called elite, or metropolitan elite.
:40:37. > :40:38.So Britain is exceptional in that sense.
:40:39. > :40:42.But when you look at the rest of Europe, what's happening
:40:43. > :40:45.in Hungary, in Poland and so on, it's very, very worrying to see
:40:46. > :41:00.Kureishi's latest protagonist, an ageing film-maker,
:41:01. > :41:05.recounts an unsparing black comedy of sexual jealousy and cuckoldry.
:41:06. > :41:10.The only thing I regret are the occasions when I haven't
:41:11. > :41:12.been as candid as I could have been, actually.
:41:13. > :41:16.I mean, it's really important to speak.
:41:17. > :41:18.It's really important to speak and to see where your words,
:41:19. > :41:25.My books are getting a bit shorter because it is a bit of a huff
:41:26. > :41:29.and puff to get from the beginning to the end, but also I feel more
:41:30. > :41:36.She strokes and kisses me, her husband and baby.
:41:37. > :41:42.This is as decent a way to die as any.
:41:43. > :41:45.Everything has been said, except her name.
:41:46. > :41:47.Zee, Zee, you forgot about me for a time,
:41:48. > :42:02.Dying's not so bad, you should try it sometime.
:42:03. > :42:15.Kirsty will be in this chair tomorrow. Good night.