:00:00. > :00:08.Forget about a hundred years of history, the Conservatives
:00:09. > :00:11.promise to be the party that stands up for workers rights.
:00:12. > :00:14.They unveil a raft of new proposals - but what does it actually mean
:00:15. > :00:25.It depends what average earnings are, but what he said was that,
:00:26. > :00:32.the national living wage should be 60% of the median wage, if you like.
:00:33. > :00:36.So if wages do not rise as much, will you fill that gap and make sure
:00:37. > :00:47.It has just been announced that Ian Brady has died. Is that the end of
:00:48. > :00:49.the story of the Morris murderers. Also tonight, whose fault is it
:00:50. > :00:52.the NHS got hit so hard There is a ?5 billion backlog
:00:53. > :00:55.of maintenance for the NHS and the IT budget has got to provide
:00:56. > :00:59.things like imaging equipment that makes sure that cancer
:01:00. > :01:01.patients can be diagnosed. These are urgent and important
:01:02. > :01:03.demands on a very small budget. The Conservatives have initiated
:01:04. > :01:28.a series of practical measures Or an audacious land grab on prime
:01:29. > :01:32.Labour real estate - The Prime Minister pledges
:01:33. > :01:35.new protections for people in the gig economy, a right
:01:36. > :01:38.to training and measures to protect But today the Tories refused
:01:39. > :01:42.to confirm the National Living Wage would reach 9 pounds an hour by 2020
:01:43. > :01:45.- as George Osborne - Our political editor
:01:46. > :02:01.Nick Watt is with us now. A big moment. It was. I have been
:02:02. > :02:05.trying to identify about how Theresa May may take to fashion one nation
:02:06. > :02:09.Conservative to her vision about how the country should be run and
:02:10. > :02:14.workers' rights is that the hard and the reason for that is one of her
:02:15. > :02:20.insights from Brexit was not just about to leave the EU, it was a cry
:02:21. > :02:23.of anguish from people who feel left behind by globalisation. These
:02:24. > :02:30.pledges today are designed by her to show that she really means business
:02:31. > :02:33.about making globalisation work for those people who feel left behind.
:02:34. > :02:38.She needs a mandate on this to face down critics in her own party. She
:02:39. > :02:45.lost a battle in the Cabinet in the autumn about getting workers sitting
:02:46. > :02:52.on cup -- on boards, one verse and said this did not work in Germany.
:02:53. > :02:54.That idea, it comes back, although the language and wording about who
:02:55. > :02:55.will sit on the boards is not too clear.
:02:56. > :02:58.Well we will see Nick's take on One Nation Conservatism
:02:59. > :03:00.in a moment but first, to that interview with Damien Green,
:03:01. > :03:05.I asked why the Tories were looking for this major shift of emphasis
:03:06. > :03:11.And he explained it was partly as a result of Brexit.
:03:12. > :03:14.There were too many people who felt that the system did not give them
:03:15. > :03:18.a fair crack of the whip and Theresa May has made clear that
:03:19. > :03:20.since she went into Downing Street making this a country that works
:03:21. > :03:24.for everyone is key to her, and a large part of that is making
:03:25. > :03:39.sure that everyone benefits from a rising tide of prosperity.
:03:40. > :03:41.There will be viewers sitting at home saying, this
:03:42. > :03:43.is quite frankly laughable, that the Conservatives
:03:44. > :03:45.are trying to pitch themselves as the party of workers' rights,
:03:46. > :03:48.the government that tried to bring in anti-strike clause,
:03:49. > :03:50.that saw huge increases in zero hours contract, that attempted
:03:51. > :03:52.to shut down trade unions, they're not going to get
:03:53. > :03:56.This government has not tried to shut down trade unions,
:03:57. > :04:04.trade unions have a role to play, but people who think that making
:04:05. > :04:07.strikes more difficult is in any way anti-work or anti-ordinary people
:04:08. > :04:11.Zero hours contract, the percentage of people on zero
:04:12. > :04:15.hours contracts who are happy to have them is about 70,
:04:16. > :04:18.less than 3% of the workforce is on zero hours contract,
:04:19. > :04:21.the average amount of time worked by someone on zero hours
:04:22. > :04:23.contract is 25 hours, so actually, they're rather popular
:04:24. > :04:30.My point is, you can correct the perception that you don't care
:04:31. > :04:34.about workers' rights really simply, you end the public sector pay pinch.
:04:35. > :04:37.You know that you have nurses who are about to go on strike
:04:38. > :04:45.You know that you have public sector workers who are feeling the squeeze
:04:46. > :04:48.That's the way to correct that perception.
:04:49. > :04:50.Wages aren't stagnant, we had to take difficult decisions
:04:51. > :04:57.In fact pay progression among nurses means that the average pay increase
:04:58. > :05:03.is 3% but yes of course everyone is concerned.
:05:04. > :05:08.Nurses do a great job, we've got more nurses than ever before.
:05:09. > :05:11.You're short of 40,000 nurses, that suggests there is a problem
:05:12. > :05:13.for you with drawing people into the profession.
:05:14. > :05:17.There are still more people applying and places for training and so on.
:05:18. > :05:20.And we have got thousands more nurses than there were in 2010.
:05:21. > :05:23.But there is a wider range of aspects to workers'
:05:24. > :05:35.Pay has gone up particularly at the bottom end of the pay scale
:05:36. > :05:37.because of the introduction of the national living wage,
:05:38. > :05:40.which we now pledged to keep increasing until 2022,
:05:41. > :05:43.because of that, those at the bottom end of the pay scale have had
:05:44. > :05:45.particularly high pay rises, they've had an average of 6%
:05:46. > :05:48.over the last two years, as compared to inflation running
:05:49. > :05:51.So let's look at the national living wage, then.
:05:52. > :05:53.Will that be would George Osborne set out as Chancellor,
:05:54. > :06:01.It will be, we're doing it on the basis of the suggested
:06:02. > :06:04.projection by George Bain, who used to run the Low Pay unit...
:06:05. > :06:08.It depends on what average earnings are, because what he said
:06:09. > :06:13.was that the national living wage should be 60% of the median wage.
:06:14. > :06:17.So if wages don't rise as much, will you fill that gap and make sure
:06:18. > :06:22.We said we are aiming at 60%, it's below 60% right now so this
:06:23. > :06:25.will guarantee an increase over the coming years, exactly how far it
:06:26. > :06:37.So it might not get to ?9 an hour, that is something you have to accept
:06:38. > :06:41.of median wages, obviously it will depend upon what happens
:06:42. > :06:44.Right, so you've got Labour saying...
:06:45. > :06:47.?10 an hour, a nice fat round sum, and you've got the Conservatives
:06:48. > :06:49.saying, we're not quite sure, it depends on the median
:06:50. > :06:52.average raise and the rate at which it goes up,
:06:53. > :06:53.that's a fairly stark choice if you're looking
:06:54. > :06:57.Except that what we're doing, with that and with the other
:06:58. > :07:02.part of this proposal, are making a practical set
:07:03. > :07:05.of proposals, clearly you have to balance the national living wage,
:07:06. > :07:08.as we do both in terms of taking sure people are paid a fair amount
:07:09. > :07:11.and making sure that the jobs are available for them to do,
:07:12. > :07:14.that you are not pricing them out of the jobs market.
:07:15. > :07:16.We have been spectacularly successful at getting people
:07:17. > :07:20.into work, we have created the best part three mini extra jobs,
:07:21. > :07:23.we've got more people in employment never before.
:07:24. > :07:25.More women in employment than ever before.
:07:26. > :07:31.We don't want to put that at risk but at the same time we do
:07:32. > :07:33.want to have a national living wage that enables people
:07:34. > :07:35.to live decently, that is what we are achieving.
:07:36. > :07:39.Another Labour commitment is maximum pay ratios, 20/1.
:07:40. > :07:41.In the public sector or anyone tending for public sector work,
:07:42. > :07:45.will you stick to that kind of pay ratio?
:07:46. > :07:48.I think having arbitrary pay ratios like that probably isn't the best
:07:49. > :07:52.way to help workers, I think the proposal...
:07:53. > :07:55.It sends out a signal that you know that the people at the top can't
:07:56. > :07:57.carry on getting inordinate amounts more money than the
:07:58. > :08:03.Sending out a signal is what governments in the past
:08:04. > :08:06.have done too often, what we are proposing is a practical
:08:07. > :08:09.package of measures that will make a difference to people in their real
:08:10. > :08:12.lives, the ability to take time off to train, the ability to take
:08:13. > :08:15.time off to be a carer, the knowledge that because we giving
:08:16. > :08:17.extra powers to the pensions regulator, that your workplace
:08:18. > :08:19.pension will be better protected in future,
:08:20. > :08:22.that is what will make a difference to people in their daily lives,
:08:23. > :08:31.So you get a year off to look after somebody, unpaid,
:08:32. > :08:36.you are giving people a year of unpaid leave.
:08:37. > :08:43.We've looked at the system in Ireland, where this system
:08:44. > :08:45.works perfectly well, and most people don't take
:08:46. > :08:47.the full year, it's often a much shorter period,
:08:48. > :08:58.If you're a low paid worker and somebody is offering you a year
:08:59. > :09:00.to look after your elderly parent, without money, that's
:09:01. > :09:02.Different people will have different individual
:09:03. > :09:06.This is about workers' rights, isn't it?
:09:07. > :09:09.And the right to be able to say, look, something has happened
:09:10. > :09:12.in my family, I need to take a couple of months off before I can
:09:13. > :09:15.sort out the new situation, and knowing that your job
:09:16. > :09:17.is guaranteed at the end of that, that removes a significant amount
:09:18. > :09:20.of stress from people perhaps particularly at a difficult
:09:21. > :09:22.time of their lives, that is a proper practical
:09:23. > :09:33.Let's look at a very practical example of workers' rights,
:09:34. > :09:36.Uber is trying to renew its licence next month, is a Tory government
:09:37. > :09:39.going to insist that it will improve its workers' rights
:09:40. > :09:42.I don't want to talk about individual companies...
:09:43. > :09:49.We have set up quite deliberately in this area of what we will now
:09:50. > :09:54.call the gig economy, where Uber drivers and Deliveroo...
:09:55. > :09:56.You know very well, Uber was taken to court,
:09:57. > :09:59.it was found wanting in terms of its care for its workers,
:10:00. > :10:02.so you could say, "We are the party of workers' rights.
:10:03. > :10:05.We will not guarantee a new licence for Uber until it changes the way
:10:06. > :10:09.Making laws to deal with individual companies is often
:10:10. > :10:15.So let's look at the whole sector, and that is what we are doing,
:10:16. > :10:18.we have set Matthew Taylor to do a report precisely
:10:19. > :10:24.When Labour says, we want to intervene in the market and look
:10:25. > :10:26.at rail nationalisation, you call them socialist,
:10:27. > :10:31.But, you know, when the Tories suggest intervention in,
:10:32. > :10:33.you know, the energy sector, it's somehow standing up
:10:34. > :10:37.I don't call Labour socialist or Marxists, they call
:10:38. > :10:39.themselves socialists, and in the case of John
:10:40. > :10:44.They're not proposing intervention, they're proposing renationalisation
:10:45. > :10:52.But what they want to do is have it run by a statement not blue,
:10:53. > :10:56.and everyone over a certain age can remember what happened...
:10:57. > :11:00.Two years ago it would have been crazy to intervene in the energy
:11:01. > :11:03.sector when it was the desire of Ed Miliband, his suggestion,
:11:04. > :11:06.that it is absolutely right because it is Theresa May and a Tory
:11:07. > :11:08.policy, that is what people have a problem with,
:11:09. > :11:11.they do not understand where you stand on this.
:11:12. > :11:15.Ed Miliband's policy was for a freeze.
:11:16. > :11:18.His actual policy was particularly daft because he said
:11:19. > :11:21.he was going to freeze prices just before the oil price fell,
:11:22. > :11:23.which actually reduced prices, his freeze would have kept
:11:24. > :11:30.We say it is a cap on certain types of tariff if companies are not
:11:31. > :11:48.It has been announced that the Moors Murderer Ian Brady has died. Ian
:11:49. > :11:53.Brady and Murray Hendley sexually tortured and murdered five children
:11:54. > :11:59.between 1963 and 1965. The couple buried at least some of the bodies
:12:00. > :12:03.of Saddleworth Moor. Ian Brady died at a psychiatric hospital on
:12:04. > :12:06.Merseyside and he takes to the grave the location of the grave of Keith
:12:07. > :12:10.Bennett. There have been desperate pleas from the boys relatives for
:12:11. > :12:14.Ian Brady to reveal his burial site. We are joined by the former is
:12:15. > :12:19.police officer who represents the victims. This is just broken in the
:12:20. > :12:26.last few minutes, give us your first thoughts. My first thoughts are that
:12:27. > :12:31.these two individuals, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, they murdered five
:12:32. > :12:34.young children, one of whom was Lesley Ann Downey and I represented
:12:35. > :12:39.her family. When they murdered her, she was only ten years of age, she
:12:40. > :12:47.was lost on the Moritz and they recorded but they actually did to
:12:48. > :12:52.her. I remember staying with her mother and father, a number of times
:12:53. > :12:56.and I met them dozens of times and the grief and torment that I saw in
:12:57. > :13:02.their faces was beyond probably many that I have actually met. I have met
:13:03. > :13:07.hundreds of families who have had families murdered. -- family members
:13:08. > :13:13.murdered. To know that your daughter was lost, alone and murdered and
:13:14. > :13:17.then her death was recorded, the grief can never ever be etched from
:13:18. > :13:24.your mind and those two individuals, Ian Brady and then they did not just
:13:25. > :13:27.destroyed the lives of five young children, through their relentless
:13:28. > :13:31.appeals and false hopes that they gave the families, for over 50
:13:32. > :13:39.years, destroyed all of the families as well, even to this day. He never
:13:40. > :13:45.released the burial site of Keith Bennett and that family never
:13:46. > :13:50.recovered. Keith's mother went to her grave tormented in the way that
:13:51. > :13:56.you describe, having begged him many times, do you understand that
:13:57. > :14:01.mentality? They both had serious psychological injury -- issues and
:14:02. > :14:07.they played nine games with the media and Keith Bennett, I remember
:14:08. > :14:11.his mother and the other families as well, and when you saw them on the
:14:12. > :14:16.television, you could only imagine the torment. When we get up and we
:14:17. > :14:21.have had bad days, we hope the next day will be better, but when you
:14:22. > :14:24.have had someone murdered, certainly in the circumstances that Myra
:14:25. > :14:29.Hindley and Ian Brady murdered them, that is torture that exists 20 four
:14:30. > :14:33.sevenths and you can never comprehend it. I sometimes try to
:14:34. > :14:40.comprehend how these families exist and when I look into their faces, I
:14:41. > :14:46.see an emptiness and with every murder, time stops and life changes
:14:47. > :14:50.and for all the victims of Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, life changed
:14:51. > :14:55.forever. They had a life sentence for over 50 years and today, I do
:14:56. > :14:59.not know if it will bring closure to anyone because sadly many of their
:15:00. > :15:07.families, parents have died as well. talk about psychological issues,
:15:08. > :15:12.because this case caused something of... I don't know, a complication
:15:13. > :15:16.in the public mind, this idea of mental ill health against pure evil,
:15:17. > :15:23.people said they were not mentally ill, that this was pure evil? You
:15:24. > :15:27.are right, you are absolutely right, I describe Myra Hindley and Ian
:15:28. > :15:32.bravely as two of the most evil people I have ever met, and they are
:15:33. > :15:35.evil beyond belief. -- Ian Brady. And maybe the two of them tried to
:15:36. > :15:42.fool prison authorities with their mind games, by playing mind games
:15:43. > :15:47.about the state of mind that they committed those murders, and not
:15:48. > :15:52.everybody who commits a murder is psychiatrically ill. Probably, they
:15:53. > :15:58.weren't psychiatrically ill, but they tried to convince us, and every
:15:59. > :16:01.time they tried to convince us, it's twisted the knife in the wings of
:16:02. > :16:07.all of those families a little more. And many of them, as I say, they
:16:08. > :16:13.have died without peace, I remember seeing the mother of Lesley Ann
:16:14. > :16:19.Downey, in her coffin, and I looked at the body, look at the face, and
:16:20. > :16:26.even in death, I saw meant in her face, and I have seen many dead
:16:27. > :16:29.bodies as a police officer. And I hope there is respite for the family
:16:30. > :16:32.still alive today. -- knife in the wounds. Those families that have
:16:33. > :16:37.lived with over 50 years of grief and pure torment. Thank you for
:16:38. > :16:43.sharing your time with us this evening, we appreciate it. Returning
:16:44. > :16:49.to the election news now. We've heard about One
:16:50. > :16:51.Nation Conservatism - as a modern concept -
:16:52. > :16:54.for the best part of a decade. But what does that mantel mean -
:16:55. > :17:03.and can anyone wear it. Two nations between whom there is no
:17:04. > :17:06.intercourse and no sympathy. Who are as ignorant of each other's habits,
:17:07. > :17:17.thoughts and feelings as if they were dwellers in different zones. Or
:17:18. > :17:20.inhabitants of different planets. Sounds familiar? A century and a
:17:21. > :17:26.half after Benjamin Disraeli's earring description of a nation
:17:27. > :17:36.divided by poverty, Theresa May is casting herself as the true guardian
:17:37. > :17:39.of his unifying one nation credo. In the Prime Minister's mind, today's
:17:40. > :17:42.announcement of new workers' rights delivered on her pledge to unite the
:17:43. > :17:47.nation after the referendum. Theresa May believes that "Brexit" marked a
:17:48. > :17:54.cry from people who feel left behind by globalisation, she wants to show
:17:55. > :17:58.how the economy can work for all and scoop up Labour votes. We can see
:17:59. > :18:04.the Tory party return as the one nation party geographically, I'm not
:18:05. > :18:08.sure ideological, but geographically, yes, and it looks
:18:09. > :18:11.likely to pick up seats in the north, in the Midlands, maybe a
:18:12. > :18:14.comeback in Scotland and seats in Wales as well, if you think about
:18:15. > :18:18.the way a Stole seats from the Lib Democrats last time, that is a party
:18:19. > :18:23.that can claim, probably for the first time, at least since the 1980s
:18:24. > :18:28.and pro will be since the 1950s, to represent the whole of the country.
:18:29. > :18:33.But electoral success then, and possibly next month, was not just
:18:34. > :18:39.about geography. -- at least since the 1980s and probably since the
:18:40. > :18:43.1950s. This may not be a long-term gain for the Tory party but on this
:18:44. > :18:46.occasion, I think it is likely that Theresa May and the Conservative
:18:47. > :18:50.Party will pull together a combination of people, almost in the
:18:51. > :18:55.way that Ronald Reagan did in the United States. Pulling together
:18:56. > :18:59.people who were traditionally Democrat, traditionally Labour,
:19:00. > :19:02.through Ukip, into the Tory column. Winning wide support would free
:19:03. > :19:13.Theresa May to govern according to her vision of Benjamin Disraeli's
:19:14. > :19:17.one nation, Theresa May -- Mayism will have some resonance with the
:19:18. > :19:21.right, she reached out to Ukip, saying that we are citizens of
:19:22. > :19:26.nowhere, but the one nation claim on the Tory left will welcome today's
:19:27. > :19:32.pledges on workers' rights. The Prime Minister's own philosopher
:19:33. > :19:37.king, Nick Timothy, who crafted "Mayism", was inspired by one of the
:19:38. > :19:41.great municipal figures, Joe Chamberlain. He is actually the
:19:42. > :19:46.right inspiration for this, he was very clear, when he became mayor of
:19:47. > :19:49.Birmingham, and indeed, he went on to do national politics, but he
:19:50. > :19:54.believed in a vibrant industrial -based economy, to improve in his
:19:55. > :20:02.words not mine, the conditions of the masses. To many conservatives,
:20:03. > :20:07.the new West Midlands mare revives the template on how to reach out
:20:08. > :20:10.beyond Tory comfort zones. The tradition of one nation
:20:11. > :20:14.conservatism, of course, is a real fervent belief that the public
:20:15. > :20:20.services must be first-class, have to be well funded, and in that
:20:21. > :20:25.sense, that is exactly what success in the economic policies, industrial
:20:26. > :20:31.policy, that is what that enables to happen. Conservative opponents
:20:32. > :20:35.naturally take issue with the idea of a new era of one nation politics.
:20:36. > :20:42.It's very difficult to sustain the argument that a Theresa May
:20:43. > :20:47.government on June nine, elected by millions of Ukip voters, advocating
:20:48. > :20:52.fox hunting and selective education and hard Brexit, is somehow
:20:53. > :20:58.representative of the rebirth of one nation conservativism! But veteran
:20:59. > :21:03.Tories do see an historic opportunity to reclaim the mantle of
:21:04. > :21:07.Benjamin Disraeli, Theresa May's personality, or the cult of no
:21:08. > :21:11.personality, according to one unnamed catty Tory over the weekend,
:21:12. > :21:15.lies at the heart of this appeal. I think that one of the reasons why
:21:16. > :21:18.Theresa May is in such a strong position is first, there is a
:21:19. > :21:26.distinct revulsion against the type of politician that Tony Blair and
:21:27. > :21:31.David Cameron were. They want a person speaking orderly language to
:21:32. > :21:36.them, they seemed concerned about their lot and their position, -- she
:21:37. > :21:40.certainly does that and when she is re-elected, she is going to try, in
:21:41. > :21:46.fact, to really help ordinary working families. Miss is that you
:21:47. > :21:49.would argue that she was one nation Tory, certainly John Major was,
:21:50. > :21:54.David Cameron, all of their different classes, the big society,
:21:55. > :21:59.miss is that you created a property only democracy, fashioned campaigns.
:22:00. > :22:03.But I'm sure that Theresa May, she has always described herself as a
:22:04. > :22:08.one nation Tory, she is serious and sober and an evidence -based worker,
:22:09. > :22:12.rather in the way that misses that was a scientist, she wanted the
:22:13. > :22:17.evidence. It is not a belief driven support for Theresa May, it is her
:22:18. > :22:22.support for her in aspects of a sense of competence, and believe
:22:23. > :22:30.that government will probably be at its best with her rather than other
:22:31. > :22:36.people. Ukip voters appear to be flocking to Theresa May, who is
:22:37. > :22:39.winning over the purple army. You have a really very remarkable thing
:22:40. > :22:44.going on, under Arron knows, right now, the creation of, in effect, a
:22:45. > :22:49.new party, a merger between Theresa May and Nigel Farage, 4 million Ukip
:22:50. > :22:52.voters at the last general election, the vast bulk of which by all
:22:53. > :22:56.accounts would vote for the Conservatives. A new political
:22:57. > :23:00.party, and that new party is not dumb to be one nation, it is a party
:23:01. > :23:07.formed through the merger of the Conservative Party, and a pretty
:23:08. > :23:11.right-wing and in some cases far right political movement, Ukip. I
:23:12. > :23:19.I think Ukip has been a pernicious force, its social attitudes on many
:23:20. > :23:24.things are nothing ISOs shared with, I hope that we will Ukip in the
:23:25. > :23:30.selection, get back to having a conservative that governs for the
:23:31. > :23:38.nation. The Tory tide appears to be flowing across Britain, if Theresa
:23:39. > :23:41.May -- if Theresa May succeeds, will the British people have invested
:23:42. > :23:45.their hopes in a new Benjamin Disraeli, or simply placed their
:23:46. > :23:53.trust in a safe pair of hands in turbulent times?
:23:54. > :24:04.A lot of speculation about a new centre-left pro-European party may
:24:05. > :24:07.be formed after the general election if the polls are right and Labour
:24:08. > :24:12.suffers a heavy defeat, in the interview, Nick Clegg gave me a
:24:13. > :24:15.pretty strong hint that he is thinking very seriously about even
:24:16. > :24:16.more cooperation among those pro-Europeans. This is what he told
:24:17. > :24:18.me: It is clear that centre-ground
:24:19. > :24:20.moderate internationalist economically credible socially
:24:21. > :24:22.progressive voters in the United Kingdom are casting
:24:23. > :24:24.about at the moment I don't think you can reheat
:24:25. > :24:29.old coffee in politics generally but I equally don't think
:24:30. > :24:53.that vacuums in British politics the Labour manifesto tomorrow, in
:24:54. > :24:55.full, what more do we know? The BBC is reporting tonight that Labour
:24:56. > :25:00.will pledge to nationalise the water industry, if elected, that will
:25:01. > :25:03.reverse privatisation of 1989, big headlines on the manifesto but I
:25:04. > :25:08.sense a certain frustration in Labour high command that their
:25:09. > :25:11.thunder were stolen last week with the leak of the draft manifesto,
:25:12. > :25:15.that means the focus tomorrow will be on the costing. John McDonnell,
:25:16. > :25:20.Shadow Chancellor, will publish a full paper explaining how they will
:25:21. > :25:25.pay for it and he will say that 95% of taxpayers will not pay any more
:25:26. > :25:31.but the small number earning over ?80,000 will pay a small amount
:25:32. > :25:36.more, and what that means is that we will see an increase for them but it
:25:37. > :25:38.won't be going up to the 60% rate. And we will hit the airwaves, thank
:25:39. > :25:42.you very much. More than one third of the NHS
:25:43. > :25:46.trusts that were hit by Friday's cyber attack
:25:47. > :25:50.are still facing problems. Around 200,000 computers
:25:51. > :25:53.in 150 countries a virus which locks and threatens
:25:54. > :25:59.to delete within a certain time Beyond the cyber criminals,
:26:00. > :26:02.who's to blame for the vulnerability Chris Cook, our policy
:26:03. > :26:14.editor, has a look. Everything in the modern NHS, from
:26:15. > :26:19.scanners to their management is held together by computing. So it was a
:26:20. > :26:23.big deal when 48 English hospital trusts and 11 Scottish health wards
:26:24. > :26:29.were hit last week by a ransomware attack. Today, Haitians are still
:26:30. > :26:33.being diverted in two endless hospitals. Who then is responsible
:26:34. > :26:38.for the problems in England? For about a decade, up to 2011, there
:26:39. > :26:44.was a programme to standardise all NHS IT, and massive national project
:26:45. > :26:50.run from here in Whitehall, but frankly it didn't work, huge cost
:26:51. > :26:55.overruns ran through the whole programme, and so, in 2011, the,
:26:56. > :27:00.lesion passed responsibility for hospital IT down to the hospital
:27:01. > :27:03.managers. This transfer of responsibility may have been
:27:04. > :27:08.smoother but it came when money was really tight on the front line. It
:27:09. > :27:12.is not that hospitals don't care about the security of IT systems,
:27:13. > :27:17.and all of them understand that IT is vital as a tool to delivering
:27:18. > :27:24.health care in the modern age. The problem is, the demands on the
:27:25. > :27:28.capital budget are enormous. There is a ?5 billion backlog, of
:27:29. > :27:32.maintenance for the NHS, and imaging equipment must be provided that make
:27:33. > :27:36.sure that cancer patients can be diagnosed, these are urgent and
:27:37. > :27:41.important demands on a very small budget. Hospitals have been coping
:27:42. > :27:55.by squeezing equipment spending: backward
:27:56. > :28:02.kill what we need to realise is that we are asking for hospital chief
:28:03. > :28:06.executive to run businesses that have as much turnover and as many
:28:07. > :28:12.staff as a FTSE 250 plc, effectively asking them to run very complex
:28:13. > :28:17.estates, very complex IT infrastructure, as well as managing
:28:18. > :28:21.high degrees of clinical risk. Part of the issue was that some hospitals
:28:22. > :28:28.were not secure because their computers use an old version of
:28:29. > :28:30.Microsoft Windows, Windows XP, and lots of hospitals under pressure
:28:31. > :28:36.from government and elsewhere have been trying to sort that out, NHS
:28:37. > :28:41.England sources have told me that in December 2015, 18% of NHS computers
:28:42. > :28:47.were running windows XP, now it is just 4.7%, and a load of those are
:28:48. > :28:54.hard to replace, because they are integrated parts of devices like MRI
:28:55. > :28:59.scanners. And so 18 months ago, about four times as many English NHS
:29:00. > :29:02.devices were using Windows XP. The effects of a malware attack, had it
:29:03. > :29:09.happen, back then, would have been much worse.
:29:10. > :29:10.STUDIO: I'm now joined by Kingsley Manning,
:29:11. > :29:12.who until last year headed up NHS Digital.
:29:13. > :29:20.Nice of you to come in. Is this first and foremost a money
:29:21. > :29:24.programme? -- problem. I disagree with the analysis from Chris, there
:29:25. > :29:27.are, capital is not the big issue, increasingly, dealing with software
:29:28. > :29:32.issues, revenue spending, no, spending on staff, licensing,
:29:33. > :29:39.equipment spending is relatively unimportant in this issue. Who is to
:29:40. > :29:43.blame? Shame has been -- blame has been shifted to the Home Office,
:29:44. > :29:48.Amber Rudd, is this NHS? Ultimately it is the full of the criminals.
:29:49. > :29:52.What this tells us is... It is about the weaknesses in the NHS. We have
:29:53. > :30:09.been preparing for the inevitability of this attack since 2013.
:30:10. > :30:13.You knew this was coming? We knew at some point. This is not the first
:30:14. > :30:18.cyber attack on the NHS. We have dealt with a number of cyber
:30:19. > :30:23.attacks. You can say that you prepared for this. Potentially we
:30:24. > :30:30.could have done more and there are weaknesses. The notion that we were
:30:31. > :30:36.unprepared is wrong. We set up the body in Leeds run by NHS digital
:30:37. > :30:39.work colleagues are working flat out to resolve problems and the
:30:40. > :30:43.Secretary of State said the response was good. Is cyber crime always
:30:44. > :30:48.going to be a step ahead? Is there something to be said for them
:30:49. > :30:55.assuming one sure software can cope with axe, they move on to why? The
:30:56. > :30:58.battle will go on and on, it is always one step ahead, if you're
:30:59. > :31:06.lucky, one step ahead of the criminal and the terrors. The
:31:07. > :31:11.stopping of it is more important? It is being prepared and it is a
:31:12. > :31:17.cultural change in the NHS. There are weaknesses. Weakness and it is
:31:18. > :31:23.difficult to recruit and retain professional staff in the NHS and is
:31:24. > :31:26.difficult. Getting trust boards to take the issue seriously has been
:31:27. > :31:33.difficult. They have other priorities and there is a question
:31:34. > :31:40.about the role of NHS England... It has been 16 years, that is too long.
:31:41. > :31:48.For many organisations, it is always a decision that can be delayed. They
:31:49. > :31:52.hate spending money. Yes. Ultimately IT, although it is increasingly at
:31:53. > :31:57.the heart of modern health care, it is not necessarily well understood.
:31:58. > :32:04.Is that for us culturally or is that to do with health? We have had some
:32:05. > :32:07.real problems in the perception of IT. Chris Kirk refers to the
:32:08. > :32:11.programme which delivers some good things but it also delivered a
:32:12. > :32:17.perception of failure which was wrong but it has remained. We have
:32:18. > :32:22.had the tobacco over the release of data from GP systems and there is an
:32:23. > :32:28.inherent suspicion and if you give clinicians a preference about where
:32:29. > :32:31.they spend their money, and much of this is about individual
:32:32. > :32:36.professionals taking this issue seriously. There is a line that has
:32:37. > :32:47.been dropped that North Korea could be behind this. I have heard various
:32:48. > :32:50.rumours. You can name anyone east of Berlin as a possibility. Thank you.
:32:51. > :32:53.The capital appears to have seen a sharp rise in knife crime -
:32:54. > :32:55.thirteen people stabbed to death in just over three weeks.
:32:56. > :32:57.Of those deaths, one victim was in his thirties,
:32:58. > :33:00.one in his forties and one in his 60s, But the rest
:33:01. > :33:06.Data released last week from 32 police forces revealed two
:33:07. > :33:09.and a half thousand weapons were seized at schools between April
:33:10. > :33:12.2015 and the beginning of this year, including axes, air guns
:33:13. > :33:20.So, what's happening and why now, when it seemed that there
:33:21. > :33:22.was progress on tackling this kind of crime.
:33:23. > :33:24.I'm joined by Dr Marian Fitzgerald Professor of Criminology
:33:25. > :33:26.at the University of Kent and Sheldon Thomas, founder
:33:27. > :33:36.and chief executive of Gangsline which aims to prevent gang violence.
:33:37. > :33:45.Very nice to have you both here. What is actually happening? By these
:33:46. > :33:50.statistics robust enough to say this is a sharp rise in knife crime? You
:33:51. > :33:55.have to understand about the statistics, what we do is to count
:33:56. > :33:59.the number of times that an officer who recalls a substantive offence of
:34:00. > :34:10.violence and remember is to say a knife was involved. Sometimes they
:34:11. > :34:14.do sometimes they don't. Knife crime becomes a crisis or when forces are
:34:15. > :34:19.looking to claim that they have got a major problem of knife crime and
:34:20. > :34:27.need new resources. So they might be ticking a box as a cry for help?
:34:28. > :34:31.Well, it is hit and miss whether officers remember to do it, they do
:34:32. > :34:36.it more for gun crime because it is far less common and far more serious
:34:37. > :34:43.and there is more consistency where a gun is use, knife crime there is
:34:44. > :34:47.far more if it and this situation, if their bosses are on their back
:34:48. > :34:52.saying you must make sure that you do it, they are more likely to do it
:34:53. > :34:58.and when the pressure is off, sometimes, was it really used? Was
:34:59. > :35:02.really a knife? Some officers will go one way and others will go
:35:03. > :35:05.another. The statistics, we have to be careful of but I think there is
:35:06. > :35:11.an underlying problem and I think I know some of the factors involved,
:35:12. > :35:15.but they are different in the Metropolitan Police to other forces.
:35:16. > :35:19.How would you explain it? You have been in gangs and you talk about
:35:20. > :35:27.gangs and know how they operate. Is that at the heart of this are we
:35:28. > :35:33.missing something? First, we have to acknowledge how statistics work,
:35:34. > :35:37.they only go by as Doctor Fitzgerald said by actual police canteen
:35:38. > :35:41.figures. A lot of young men do not go to the hospital who gets stats so
:35:42. > :35:46.the figures will most probably be a lot higher and we are at crisis
:35:47. > :35:50.point, not just the capital but throughout the country. Our gangs at
:35:51. > :35:54.the centre? They were to begin with and I would say at the moment it has
:35:55. > :35:58.become a culture and that is what people do not understand, it is not
:35:59. > :36:17.only a culture amongst young people to carry knives. What do you mean?
:36:18. > :36:22.How many kids in London for example would carry a knife each time they
:36:23. > :36:25.left the house? I could not put a figure on it but I would say a lot
:36:26. > :36:27.of the kids growing up in particular areas would definitely carry out of
:36:28. > :36:31.fear. During the daytime? It is the fear of not wanting to be part of
:36:32. > :36:33.the gang and they would carry it in case they get bullied or intimidated
:36:34. > :36:36.and the other part would be, it has become a culture because of the
:36:37. > :36:39.music they listen to. A lot of these guys are listening to music that
:36:40. > :36:42.promote the gangster image and it is about, I have got my knife or my
:36:43. > :36:45.drugs and that is part of their lifestyle. How much do you think
:36:46. > :36:51.stop and search has played a part, either negative or positive? I think
:36:52. > :36:54.Sheldon made an important point. The first thing we have got to do is
:36:55. > :36:58.take the fears of young people seriously because young people
:36:59. > :37:03.generally have been demonised in this and a lot of kids in very
:37:04. > :37:07.serious and violent areas and a lot of the violence going on between
:37:08. > :37:14.adults, guns going off and so on, there is a of young people and are
:37:15. > :37:17.very frightened and I have had experienced police officers saying
:37:18. > :37:21.to me, do not tell them that they are safer to go out there into those
:37:22. > :37:24.streets in those are some areas without anything to protect
:37:25. > :37:31.themselves, because they will laugh at you. They are far more scared of
:37:32. > :37:34.being found by that hard core of young people. Our police officers
:37:35. > :37:38.saying they should be carrying weapons? No, no they are not but we
:37:39. > :37:44.need to understand that as one officer said to me, they are far
:37:45. > :37:48.more frightened of that hard-core of seriously violent people, whether it
:37:49. > :37:51.is adults or other children, who would stop at nothing, if they have
:37:52. > :37:56.nothing to protect themselves and they are more scared of them and
:37:57. > :38:00.getting nicked by the old Bill. This is a normalisation of something that
:38:01. > :38:06.is inconceivable and if we are now talking... It is inconceivable for
:38:07. > :38:10.middle classes. Is it rising or not? It is rising. Or we are discussing
:38:11. > :38:15.here is why our young people carrying knives and we have to
:38:16. > :38:18.discuss the fear and social factors, we have to look at, these guys who
:38:19. > :38:23.carry weapons, are more scared of the gang members are more scared of
:38:24. > :38:28.people who are very violent and very confrontational than they are of the
:38:29. > :38:32.law. This idea of going around and telling people do not carry a knife
:38:33. > :38:36.or gun, it is ludicrous, because we do not live with a live. Can you
:38:37. > :38:41.imagine growing up on an estate were 70% of the people on that the state
:38:42. > :38:45.had no father figures? Mass unemployment, mothers are
:38:46. > :38:57.struggling, kids are growing up and their gangs everywhere? This is
:38:58. > :39:00.their lives and some of these kids, to get to school have to take six or
:39:01. > :39:03.seven buses around to get to a school, just to avoid maybe a gang
:39:04. > :39:06.member or a young person. We have to understand their lives. They are in
:39:07. > :39:10.a parallel universe that does not run alongside ours. You have got a
:39:11. > :39:13.hard-core of people that you need to target instead of taking a
:39:14. > :39:17.scatter-gun approach to all young people who are frightened and trying
:39:18. > :39:21.to protect themselves and their siblings and their mothers. Unless
:39:22. > :39:32.you bring them on side and take out the people they are frightened of,
:39:33. > :39:37.you're not going to get you very much.
:39:38. > :39:39.Elections come and go - even we know that.
:39:40. > :39:41.But sometimes they are defined by an image.
:39:42. > :39:44.John Prescott punching a voter, John Major on his soapbox.
:39:45. > :39:47.For election 2017 there's one image that will stay
:39:48. > :39:49.with you long after the adrenalin of the campaign has faded.
:39:50. > :39:54.He's got an update on the data - the Tory battle ground seats -
:39:55. > :40:01.Chris. The first thing I will show you is a graph that maps out all of
:40:02. > :40:06.the Tory and Labour sees and you can see them. This is like a swingometer
:40:07. > :40:10.and what it tells you is how many seats each party gets. If there is a
:40:11. > :40:13.swing towards Labour, they will pick up seats here and if there is a
:40:14. > :40:19.swing towards the Tories they will pick up seats here. We can draw in
:40:20. > :40:24.an estimate that shows the current state of the polling and what it
:40:25. > :40:29.looks like is that the moment, the likely a sort of outcome is for
:40:30. > :40:34.quite big Tory gains, around 70 or so Labour's seats flipping to the
:40:35. > :40:40.Conservatives. The dark is solid. These are apparent Tory seats. Those
:40:41. > :40:45.are remaining Labour seats. This dark blue zone, areas like the front
:40:46. > :40:51.line of the battle, those are the seats with the Tories think they can
:40:52. > :40:56.flip them. The seats here, are very important. If we draw in where
:40:57. > :41:01.Theresa May has been on visits, these are the black squares here,
:41:02. > :41:07.you can see, there is one here, there are a few over here, they are
:41:08. > :41:13.quite Ukip or Labour. She is not really thinking she's going to get
:41:14. > :41:16.those. There are quite odd seats. Almost all of her visits are in this
:41:17. > :41:23.corridor and you can see that she has really homed in on this battle
:41:24. > :41:28.ground area. The next two weeks will be uphill, pretty much. Possibly. If
:41:29. > :41:33.they think that they are doing better, they will push out there
:41:34. > :41:39.visits this way. It is clear therein that battle ground. If we draw in
:41:40. > :41:45.Jeremy Corbyn's visits. He is going to a lot of very safe Labour seats
:41:46. > :41:50.and he is going to a lot of marginal but some quite safe Tory seat, he is
:41:51. > :41:55.not really going into this area and one of the odd things is that it
:41:56. > :41:58.looks like Jeremy Corbyn is fighting a campaign that implies Labour will
:41:59. > :42:02.pick up seats while Theresa May is fighting a campaign that implies
:42:03. > :42:03.Tories will pick up seats. We cannot wait.
:42:04. > :42:21.Good night. Thank you for joining us.
:42:22. > :42:25.Most of us are now at some stage, we are not finish with the wet weather
:42:26. > :42:27.yet.