:00:00. > :00:07.Tonight we're live in Northern Ireland where the general
:00:08. > :00:09.election campaign is being dominated by the impending split
:00:10. > :00:11.from the European Union, which in turn is hardening
:00:12. > :00:20.You are in the Republic and I am in Northern Ireland,
:00:21. > :00:24.or the UK or whatever you like to call it.
:00:25. > :00:27.We'll be debating Northern Ireland's future at the edge of the EU,
:00:28. > :00:31.with senior figures from the main political parties here.
:00:32. > :00:34.And here in London, parts of the Conservative manifesto
:00:35. > :00:36.are emerging tonight ahead of its launch tomorrow,
:00:37. > :00:40.we'll hear about their new policy on social care.
:00:41. > :00:42.And, we'll look at the Lib Dem manifesto too.
:00:43. > :00:45.Vince Cable will tell us whether it is about more
:00:46. > :01:02.The general election has come at a time for Northern Ireland
:01:03. > :01:06.Northern Ireland's political scene is entirely different
:01:07. > :01:10.from anywhere else in the UK, but right now devolution, Stormont,
:01:11. > :01:14.is suspended after a bust-up between the DUP and Sinn Fein,
:01:15. > :01:19.That in turn has huge implications for Northern Ireland's voice
:01:20. > :01:23.in the Brexit negotiations and the role of the 18 Westminster
:01:24. > :01:32.After Brexit, and Northern Ireland voted to remain, Northern Ireland
:01:33. > :01:37.will be the UK's only land frontier with the EU.
:01:38. > :01:39.There are few people here who believe a hard border
:01:40. > :01:42.would be anything other than disastrous, and the EU's chief
:01:43. > :01:47.negotiator Michel Barnier has said categorically that said the border
:01:48. > :01:50.issue was one of three priorities to be resolved before Britain can
:01:51. > :01:54.negotiate a trade deal, something disputed at the weekend
:01:55. > :02:00.Sinn Fein have used Brexit to ramp up their call
:02:01. > :02:03.for a referendum on unification, and the EU has agreed that
:02:04. > :02:06.in the event of a vote to unify, Northern Ireland would automatically
:02:07. > :02:10.be subsumed into the EU as part of Ireland.
:02:11. > :02:13.The DUP say a border poll would destabilise Northern Ireland
:02:14. > :02:20.Once again in Northern Ireland the divide comes down to unionists
:02:21. > :02:24.Before we debate the issues with senior figures in the main
:02:25. > :02:26.political parties here, the BBC's Ireland correspondent
:02:27. > :02:30.Chris Buckler explores the key issues at play in the election,
:02:31. > :02:35.against a divide that seems to be reasserting itself.
:02:36. > :02:40.Invisible lines in this land will soon mark where one union
:02:41. > :02:53.This will be the edge of both the EU and the UK.
:02:54. > :02:56.Davy Crockett is a descendant of his namesake, the famous
:02:57. > :03:02.His farm, which straddles the Irish border on the outskirts
:03:03. > :03:07.of Londonderry, makes him the king of a new frontier.
:03:08. > :03:13.This is the border, you are in the Republic and I am
:03:14. > :03:16.in Northern Ireland, or the UK, or whatever
:03:17. > :03:22.I can shake hands with you here, across the divide!
:03:23. > :03:29.But if this border was to go sometime in the future,
:03:30. > :03:31.the EU has made clear that Northern Ireland could be part
:03:32. > :03:37.Do you think that being part of the European Union would be
:03:38. > :03:42.an incentive for people to vote for a united Ireland?
:03:43. > :03:46.Agriculture would be better in Europe, but the vast majority
:03:47. > :03:49.of the people will be afraid of losing what they'd get
:03:50. > :03:53.from the British taxpayer, not what they'd get from Europe.
:03:54. > :03:55.But Republicans believe Brexit could strengthen their case,
:03:56. > :04:00.and support for their ultimate aim, a united Ireland.
:04:01. > :04:03.It's only three months since the last vote here,
:04:04. > :04:07.a bitter Assembly election that left the parties deeply divided,
:04:08. > :04:13.Sinn Fein say they won't go back into power-sharing with unionists
:04:14. > :04:16.unless some of their demands are met, including legislation that
:04:17. > :04:20.would give official status to the Irish language.
:04:21. > :04:23.If you feed a crocodile, they're going to keep coming back
:04:24. > :04:28.That was the Democratic Unionist leader's response to calls
:04:29. > :04:33.It fired Republican anger and helped Sinn Fein
:04:34. > :04:36.to its best election result, however, something they celebrated
:04:37. > :04:46.But Arlene Foster now appears to be trying to reach out,
:04:47. > :05:01.even speaking Irish when she visited this Catholic school in Newry.
:05:02. > :05:05.Irish is the first language of just a 0.25% of the population here,
:05:06. > :05:08.but it's important to the students who the DUP leader
:05:09. > :05:13.Whether you see yourself as Irish, whether you see yourself
:05:14. > :05:15.as Northern Irish, whether you see yourself as British,
:05:16. > :05:19.You feel more Irish than Northern Irish?
:05:20. > :05:31.Reinforcing an Irish identity is important in Sinn Fein's push
:05:32. > :05:37.for what's known as a border poll, a referendum vote on Irish unity.
:05:38. > :05:40.With the heart, it's the passion, it's the love of the Irish language,
:05:41. > :05:43.culture, and the hope one day of the reunification of Ireland.
:05:44. > :05:49.But I don't know if this is the time for it or not.
:05:50. > :05:52.The peace walls that divide much of Belfast mark out what are broadly
:05:53. > :05:54.seen as Catholic nationalist areas from Protestant unionist
:05:55. > :05:59.But there are population changes taking place here that
:06:00. > :06:03.could have an impact on any future border poll.
:06:04. > :06:05.When do you think the number of Catholics will outnumber
:06:06. > :06:14.Is there a danger in overplaying the number of Catholics actually
:06:15. > :06:20.Well, the census figures might overplay that,
:06:21. > :06:23.and here I'm just calling to mind evidence I remember seeing
:06:24. > :06:25.from public surveys, where I saw evidence that a quarter
:06:26. > :06:34.of Sinn Fein voters wouldn't vote for a united Ireland just then.
:06:35. > :06:36.Years of peace have changed places like Belfast, and that's not
:06:37. > :06:41.Many accept that the clash of cultures here is part
:06:42. > :06:48.One in five say they see themselves as Northern Irish.
:06:49. > :06:51.But Tina McKenzie, who was once part of a now defunct
:06:52. > :06:54.cross-community party called NI21, says the last election showed
:06:55. > :06:59.voters are motivated by conflict, not compromise.
:07:00. > :07:04.We had the biggest turnout since the Good Friday Agreement,
:07:05. > :07:06.ten percentage points up on last time.
:07:07. > :07:09.That's because people actually felt threatened.
:07:10. > :07:13.There was this call from Unionists to say we might get
:07:14. > :07:23.It pulls at the strings of people's core identity.
:07:24. > :07:25.Modern politics in Northern Ireland is still something of
:07:26. > :07:28.And that's not surprising, when you consider that many
:07:29. > :07:34.voters lived through years of horrendous violence.
:07:35. > :07:51.I was going in and out of consciousness.
:07:52. > :07:56.Jim Dixon was seriously injured in the Enniskillen bombing.
:07:57. > :07:58.My skull was smashed like an eggshell.
:07:59. > :08:03.I was split from here right up to here, and my jaw
:08:04. > :08:10.The IRA attack on a Remembrance Day service in that town 30
:08:11. > :08:19.years ago is an event that is impossible to forget.
:08:20. > :08:22.People today are being told a lot of garbage about "these
:08:23. > :08:30.Nobody's changed, to get to where they're going,
:08:31. > :08:41.If they never had started, there would have been a united
:08:42. > :08:51.Killing and murdering people doesn't unite people.
:08:52. > :08:53.How people see and want that troubled past to be
:08:54. > :08:54.remembered is something that divides communities.
:08:55. > :08:57.Legacy and issues of identity polarise with every vote here,
:08:58. > :08:59.and that will be true once again in this general election,
:09:00. > :09:02.with unionists appealing to their core base and nationalists
:09:03. > :09:04.theirs, all contributing to the many reasons why there's
:09:05. > :09:08.no strong nor stable government at Stormont.
:09:09. > :09:26.At election time, nationalists and unionists often seem to be
:09:27. > :09:34.But away from the heat of that battle for votes,
:09:35. > :09:36.they need to find ways of understanding each other,
:09:37. > :09:38.otherwise the past will continue to haunt future generations,
:09:39. > :09:52.be they British, Irish or Northern Irish.
:09:53. > :09:56.I'm joined now by Claire Hanna from the SDLP, Jeffrey Donaldson
:09:57. > :10:02.of the DUP, Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd, Naomi Long from the Alliance
:10:03. > :10:08.Party, and the Ulster Unionists' Steve Aiken.
:10:09. > :10:16.Thank you for joining us tonight. Jeffrey Donaldson, the implication
:10:17. > :10:20.of Brexit being at the heart of this election is that it reinforces the
:10:21. > :10:25.divide. The DUP was the only party that voted for Brexit. That's true
:10:26. > :10:29.but 45% of the people of Northern Ireland voted for Brexit and we get
:10:30. > :10:36.30% normally in an election. So we are fishing in a big pond as far as
:10:37. > :10:39.we are concerned. I sense it when I'm out canvassing, I think support
:10:40. > :10:47.for the DUP is going to increase as a result of Brexit, I think people
:10:48. > :10:51.are voting DUP dizzy Brexit delivered. John O'Dowd, Sinn Fein
:10:52. > :10:54.used the spectre of Brexit to push for unification but the figures
:10:55. > :11:00.don't add up. An opinion poll said only 22% support a united Ireland.
:11:01. > :11:05.Are you rolling back from the idea of a referendum on unification?
:11:06. > :11:08.Brexit is the biggest constitutional change on the island of Ireland
:11:09. > :11:17.since partition. The figures you quote are similar to the Scottish
:11:18. > :11:23.independence polls a year before the Scottish independence referendum. We
:11:24. > :11:29.do not fear a referendum on Irish unity, bring on the referendum. Do
:11:30. > :11:34.you really believe in the SDLP that there is any appetite for a vote on
:11:35. > :11:38.unification now? I think Brexit has undoubtedly put Irish unity further
:11:39. > :11:43.up the political agenda. All of the challenges that existed on the 22nd
:11:44. > :11:48.of June remain about reconciliation. If Brexit shows anything it's the
:11:49. > :11:53.division and damage of a massive constitutional question boiled down
:11:54. > :11:58.to a yes or no answer. And divisive it was, even in the UK. We think
:11:59. > :12:02.while we deal with a massive challenge, economic and political
:12:03. > :12:08.shocks of Brexit, polarising it and making it through a green and orange
:12:09. > :12:12.lenses and constructive. Steve Aiken, the UUP voted remain and are
:12:13. > :12:19.committed to making the best of Brexit... We are a Unionist party.
:12:20. > :12:24.You are pushing for special designation status for Northern
:12:25. > :12:28.Ireland, what is that? We are not looking for a special status. What
:12:29. > :12:33.we want is the best deal for Northern Ireland. We want to have
:12:34. > :12:36.Northern Ireland not being penalised by Brexit. More importantly, looking
:12:37. > :12:40.at the opportunities. We keep talking about the issues around
:12:41. > :12:45.borders. We shouldn't have any borders across these islands at all.
:12:46. > :12:51.We shouldn't have any hard borders. We should have free movement, we
:12:52. > :12:54.should have the ability to move trade and services across. One of
:12:55. > :13:01.the things we need to do is maintain the flow of over 1 billion euros a
:13:02. > :13:11.week... How would that work? Let's bring in the Alliance Party. You are
:13:12. > :13:14.a cross community party. How would there be no restrictions? That's not
:13:15. > :13:18.going to happen if you are outside a customs union. That's one of the
:13:19. > :13:23.real concerns. Despite the fact the country is quite divided over
:13:24. > :13:26.Brexit, but Scotland and Northern Ireland are unhappy, we have a
:13:27. > :13:33.government that seems to be hurtling towards the hardest of Brexit. We
:13:34. > :13:36.would expect that they would moderate its approach to Brexit and
:13:37. > :13:39.try and find a form of Brexit that would protect the best of what we
:13:40. > :13:44.have in the EU while living up to the demands of a democratic vote. We
:13:45. > :13:48.believe that we need to protect the freedom of movement we have in
:13:49. > :13:52.Northern Ireland, not a economically and socially but it's important
:13:53. > :13:55.politically in Northern Ireland. It's part of the expectation that
:13:56. > :14:00.phrase from the Good Friday Agreement. Do you really believe
:14:01. > :14:04.that the UUP's position is correct there will be no restrictions
:14:05. > :14:08.anywhere? It's impossible. We are talking about two separate economic
:14:09. > :14:15.units being forced on the people of the island of Ireland. And the north
:14:16. > :14:22.to remain within the EU. When we putting together to economic units
:14:23. > :14:27.pushed together against the will of the people bear is going to be
:14:28. > :14:30.barriers in place. We will bring you back into the light as soon as
:14:31. > :14:41.possible! Is a matter or LAUGHTER Coming back to you, Naomi, how do
:14:42. > :14:46.you squeeze in here? It is a polarised position and you will drop
:14:47. > :14:51.down a hole in the middle. Not at all. In the last election we polled
:14:52. > :14:54.our best vote in 40 years. Politics polarises but it motivates those of
:14:55. > :15:01.us who think that Brexit cannot be seen through an orange and green
:15:02. > :15:05.lens. It is much of a more general issue. It affects those on the
:15:06. > :15:10.national and Unionist sides. We need the best deal for Northern Ireland
:15:11. > :15:15.as a whole, that is good for the UK and good for Ireland. Claire? Going
:15:16. > :15:19.back on the special stat is, those of us that campaigned for Remainer
:15:20. > :15:22.has repeatedly how you could marry up the hard Brexiter is with the
:15:23. > :15:29.free movement that we need and enjoy, and we still have not had the
:15:30. > :15:32.answer. There is already specific circumstances here and we will need
:15:33. > :15:38.to be treated differently. One thing is for sure, the EU understands
:15:39. > :15:41.Northern Ireland better than the UK. Do you believe that Claire is right
:15:42. > :15:45.that there will have to be special designated status even though you
:15:46. > :15:48.were voting for Brexit and that was what he wanted? First of all, the
:15:49. > :15:52.idea that Brussels knows Northern Ireland better than London is just a
:15:53. > :16:00.nonsense. Let's knock out on the head. London noses plays very well.
:16:01. > :16:03.London funds this place. And has done for many years. The idea of a
:16:04. > :16:09.united Ireland, and being economically viable, that is just
:16:10. > :16:12.not sustainable. In terms of hard borders, no-one around this table is
:16:13. > :16:20.arguing for a hard border. The only people I hear talking the idea is
:16:21. > :16:23.not Steve and I, it is Sinn Fein. But what do you actually expect to
:16:24. > :16:27.happen? It is like the old days, Sinn Fein talking about and Ireland
:16:28. > :16:32.delete that united Ireland by blowing up the Dublin railway line.
:16:33. > :16:37.That is nonsensical. But did you expect that you would vote for
:16:38. > :16:39.Brexit and would be open borders and there would be no change, they would
:16:40. > :16:45.be free movement of people and tariffs? We have a common travel
:16:46. > :16:51.area on this Island, long before the EU existed. And we had a common
:16:52. > :16:56.immigration policy. And common customs policies. We will be able to
:16:57. > :17:01.work these issues through pragmatically. Elvis does not want a
:17:02. > :17:07.hard border. And we need a government. -- Belfast does not want
:17:08. > :17:12.a hard border. We need Belfast to function, to enable us to get a
:17:13. > :17:17.special deal. Right now you are denying the people of Northern
:17:18. > :17:21.Ireland a voice. Do you believe, without Stormont, that you will have
:17:22. > :17:27.a lesser voice in the negotiations? Do you believe that? In relation to
:17:28. > :17:30.the Brexit debate, the voice to listen to as the voice of the
:17:31. > :17:36.constitutional research Council which paid the DUP almost ?500,000
:17:37. > :17:40.to fund adverts, not here in the north but to influence your
:17:41. > :17:44.listeners in London, through the metro. Where did that money come
:17:45. > :17:47.from? Because it was a UK referendum, a referendum you did not
:17:48. > :17:53.take part in. You can shout me down... The lowest turnout was in
:17:54. > :17:58.nationalised west Belfast. Hang on, hang on. Let's not distract
:17:59. > :18:01.ourselves with this at the moment. What we want to talk about now is
:18:02. > :18:05.exactly what a border would look like and the impact for people on
:18:06. > :18:13.the border, what that would be. I want to ask you this, do you agree
:18:14. > :18:16.with Michel Barnier that without resolution on the border, they
:18:17. > :18:20.cannot be a trade deal? Here we are, at the beginning of the
:18:21. > :18:24.negotiations. There are all sorts of things to be negotiated. But do you
:18:25. > :18:30.agree? Let's talk about some of the wider issues. I was down in Dublin
:18:31. > :18:33.yesterday, listening to discussions about the Norway Sweden border,
:18:34. > :18:37.looking at the French Swiss model, and the fact that we are on islands,
:18:38. > :18:41.there are alternative approaches to make this happen. The UK has been a
:18:42. > :18:46.trading nation for 1000 years and we can make it work. But the problem is
:18:47. > :18:51.not going to be on the UK side of it, the problem is going to be the
:18:52. > :18:55.border posts that will be imposed by the EU and the Republic of Ireland.
:18:56. > :18:58.The Republic does not want that. The Republic and the United Kingdom want
:18:59. > :19:05.to work together to make it work and we can make it work. Do you believe
:19:06. > :19:08.that? I have to say that Steve's colleague was saying this week that
:19:09. > :19:10.Dublin should basically keep its nose out of Northern Ireland's
:19:11. > :19:14.business and now he is arguing that London and Dublin should be working
:19:15. > :19:18.closely together to make sure we get the best possible border. The
:19:19. > :19:21.reality is that if you have a customs differentiation, a
:19:22. > :19:24.differentiation in terms of duty, you will have to have some measure
:19:25. > :19:28.of being able to take a of that on the border. That may not result in
:19:29. > :19:41.the kind of borders that we had in the 1970s, which were there for
:19:42. > :19:43.security reasons, but no one has been able to take us to any location
:19:44. > :19:46.where there is a border between Europe and another nation and show
:19:47. > :19:49.us a seamless border that we should expect. It is right that we should
:19:50. > :19:51.be concerned about that. People are talking about a different kind of
:19:52. > :19:54.border, that what you would do is put in place essentially a land
:19:55. > :19:56.border, a border at the airports and ports. Is that impossible? Nothing
:19:57. > :20:01.is impossible in this day and age. We have electronic surveillance,
:20:02. > :20:06.and... But would you like that border? We have it already. We
:20:07. > :20:12.already have arrangements between the United Kingdom and the Republic
:20:13. > :20:16.of Ireland where there is a massive sharing of information. Every single
:20:17. > :20:20.day, Kirsty, people who come into Dublin, they have information fed
:20:21. > :20:25.through to London. That is happening already. Claire, do you fear the
:20:26. > :20:30.spectre of that hard and horrible border? I think not just for the
:20:31. > :20:33.economy but for the intangible benefits that came with the
:20:34. > :20:38.agreement and peace and free movement and access, to the rest of
:20:39. > :20:41.the Ireland, particularly for nationalists but also for the
:20:42. > :20:45.economy as well. If that is under threat, as you have outlined, a
:20:46. > :20:49.border around the island would be the only practical way that it would
:20:50. > :20:56.be unreasonable to expect Ireland enforce that. But hard Brexit leads
:20:57. > :21:01.to a hard border? I think the key question has to be, it is
:21:02. > :21:05.particularly things to do with business. It is not to do
:21:06. > :21:08.necessarily with tariffs, it is to do with regulation. Those are the
:21:09. > :21:16.important thing is that we need to sort out. Explain to me what would
:21:17. > :21:21.happen. If you have cross-border business is all the time,
:21:22. > :21:24.essentially one economy and two countries, so if you have a third of
:21:25. > :21:28.milk production from Northern Ireland existing in the Republic, is
:21:29. > :21:32.that a problem or is it not? Is it reciprocal? We are missing the point
:21:33. > :21:35.here, talking about soft or hard borders. It is an economic border
:21:36. > :21:39.and one that currently does not exist. Businesses who currently
:21:40. > :21:42.trade across the island of Ireland do not have to pay tariffs and
:21:43. > :21:47.customs, and they are going to have to pay those. How do you know that,
:21:48. > :21:51.John? The negotiations have not even begun. How do you know that will be
:21:52. > :21:56.the outcome? How are you going to get unimpeded access to the single
:21:57. > :22:00.market? We know what the current situation is. The DUP lead us down a
:22:01. > :22:03.pathway with their dark money and everything else, towards Brexit, but
:22:04. > :22:06.they could not answer those questions. They do not know what
:22:07. > :22:12.sort of customs union would be getting. But the do know that we are
:22:13. > :22:16.leaving the customs union. But we don't know that. We have no
:22:17. > :22:20.government, now executive. These two parties collapsed dead without
:22:21. > :22:24.getting any strategy in place, so at the moment nobody is shouting for
:22:25. > :22:28.Northern Ireland. Let's now absolutely turn to that and talk
:22:29. > :22:34.about Northern Ireland's influence in the negotiations. John O'Dowd, if
:22:35. > :22:39.there is no Stormont, then a vote for Sinn Fein is surely totally
:22:40. > :22:44.useless, when you do not take your seats at Westminster and you have no
:22:45. > :22:48.way to influence things. No voice, it is a wasted vote. Let me use my
:22:49. > :22:53.voice. We are proud Republicans. We will not take an oath of allegiance
:22:54. > :22:57.to the queen of allegiance to lean back England. No disrespect to the
:22:58. > :23:03.Queen but I am not taking an oath of allegiance. -- to the Queen of
:23:04. > :23:07.England. You said the same with Stormont and the council. But what I
:23:08. > :23:11.am saying at this situation, if you do not have a voice at Westminster,
:23:12. > :23:14.as you do not have, and you do not have a voice at Stormont because it
:23:15. > :23:18.does not exist and it does not look like it is coming back, where is
:23:19. > :23:23.your voice heard? Well, I think you will find that Sinn Fein's voice is
:23:24. > :23:27.heard loud and clear across the island of Ireland, it is heard loud
:23:28. > :23:30.and clear in London. I sat on the council with the Welsh executive and
:23:31. > :23:33.the Scottish executive in the British government, when we had an
:23:34. > :23:37.executive and not only were our views ignored but the views of the
:23:38. > :23:41.Welsh and the Scottish executive. I will put this challenge out to those
:23:42. > :23:44.parties, tell me which vote you have overturned in Westminster in
:23:45. > :23:50.relation to Brexit. Tell me which vote you overturned. I am a proud
:23:51. > :23:53.nationalist as well. Does John think he is a better Irishman than
:23:54. > :23:57.O'Connell and others who found it in them to represent their people. Are
:23:58. > :24:03.you better as a nationalist than SNP or Plaid Cymru? Do you think that
:24:04. > :24:08.Sinn Fein are letting down the people of Ireland by not...
:24:09. > :24:14.Entirely, particularly because they are making us all at sensualist from
:24:15. > :24:18.Stormont at the moment. The SNP desk they are making us all abstain from
:24:19. > :24:23.Stormont at the moment. But do you know what, we're going to have five
:24:24. > :24:26.years of press releases. Wait a minute. I would like to be clear
:24:27. > :24:31.that you actually think Stormont is useless. I am asking about
:24:32. > :24:40.Westminster. Which Brexit vote did they overturn. John believes that
:24:41. > :24:46.six MPs in Westminster could have no impact but four MEPs could change
:24:47. > :24:50.the world? We have one councillor, should they bother. I would like to
:24:51. > :24:56.bring the alliance in on this. Do you say a plague on both your
:24:57. > :24:59.houses, DUP and Sinn Fein, for not sorting out this business over
:25:00. > :25:04.Stormont? Because if this continues, if the negotiations at the end of
:25:05. > :25:08.June fail, then you are looking at direct rule again. We are and that
:25:09. > :25:11.is absolutely the worst thing that could happen in the context of
:25:12. > :25:14.Northern Ireland. If John believes that the current government is
:25:15. > :25:19.insensitive to Northern Ireland's needs and does not show respect,
:25:20. > :25:24.what better way to place an offer to the people that he represents and
:25:25. > :25:27.London than to have devolution operational. I have to say, I spent
:25:28. > :25:31.five years at Westminster and it is quite possible to change people's
:25:32. > :25:35.mines through persuasion and argument and voting. I changed the
:25:36. > :25:39.law as a single member of Parliament. You cannot do that by
:25:40. > :25:42.walking around talking to people in Westminster, by hiring rooms and
:25:43. > :25:48.tweeting and sending out press releases. But you can do it if you
:25:49. > :25:55.turn up and work with others on a cross-party basis. I changed the law
:25:56. > :26:01.about donations. One law. I influenced more law than your party
:26:02. > :26:06.has changed in all that time. The UUP position now on a return to
:26:07. > :26:10.Stormont. We want Stormont back up and running. And here is the
:26:11. > :26:14.interesting thing, in the talks that were going on just before, we were
:26:15. > :26:18.getting close to consensus of all the parties together on Brexit. We
:26:19. > :26:22.were working very closely. You were their job, clear was there, now only
:26:23. > :26:25.was there. We were getting very close to actually having a document
:26:26. > :26:29.and a policy that we could take forward. We need to get the Northern
:26:30. > :26:32.Ireland assembly back up and running as soon as this election is out of
:26:33. > :26:38.the way and get the executive up and running. You think that the glory
:26:39. > :26:42.days of Stormont might be over because when you had Martin
:26:43. > :26:48.McGuinness and Ian Paisley, who could command their communities, it
:26:49. > :26:52.was a completely different matter, and actually it worked. There was a
:26:53. > :26:57.magnet going like that, and it worked, but without them none of you
:26:58. > :27:02.here has the power to reinstate Stormont properly. I do not agree
:27:03. > :27:06.with that at all. I think four of the parties represented run this
:27:07. > :27:09.table are ready to get Stormont up and running today. There is only one
:27:10. > :27:13.party saying they are not prepared to go into government and are
:27:14. > :27:18.holding the whole of Northern Ireland to ransom. That party is
:27:19. > :27:23.Sinn Fein. Sorry, clear, let me be absolutely clear. The DUP has now,
:27:24. > :27:30.zero preconditions for going back into government. But he refused to
:27:31. > :27:33.make the progress required, by refusing to make the progress
:27:34. > :27:38.required to make it difficult. We are prepared to go into government
:27:39. > :27:42.tomorrow without any preconditions. Sinn Fein are blocking bad. And you
:27:43. > :27:48.are letting them off the hook. Do you think we are about to get a
:27:49. > :27:51.period of instability in Ireland? I hope we're not because if we are
:27:52. > :27:55.going into direct rule, we need strong voices in Westminster. But we
:27:56. > :27:59.have solved the bigger problems than this with the right attitude. Thank
:28:00. > :28:02.you all very much. Before we go back to London, I would like to apologise
:28:03. > :28:05.for the strange lighting. Thank you very much.
:28:06. > :28:07.Now this evening, various parts of the Tory manifesto
:28:08. > :28:12.The full document itself will come tomorrow, but we know
:28:13. > :28:15.the social care policy, among other things.
:28:16. > :28:22.Including significant changes for the winter fuel allowance. The
:28:23. > :28:26.papers are leading on its tomorrow and they are divided as to whether
:28:27. > :28:31.it is a middle class attack or a saving of people, as the mayor
:28:32. > :28:32.rooted, to stop you having to sell your home for your care.
:28:33. > :28:35.Our policy editor Chris Cook is with me.
:28:36. > :28:41.A man who always gives us consistent light. Tell us about the care
:28:42. > :28:44.proposals. The reason why the papers are split is because there are
:28:45. > :28:48.already two buckets of measures here. Some giveaways, some take
:28:49. > :28:54.aways. On the takeaway side, first of all, they are means testing the
:28:55. > :28:58.individual allowance, and some of that money will go into social care.
:28:59. > :29:01.Richer pensioners will not get that any more. The thing they are doing
:29:02. > :29:05.on the takeaway side, they are saying that if you currently receive
:29:06. > :29:09.care in your house, when you are means tested, to work out whether
:29:10. > :29:12.you should contribute or not, your house will not count towards your
:29:13. > :29:16.means testing, whereas previously did not because it was an asset you
:29:17. > :29:20.were using at the time. They have also given a guarantee that if you
:29:21. > :29:24.are living in your house or your partner is living in your house, you
:29:25. > :29:28.will not have to sell your house to pay for the social care, they will
:29:29. > :29:32.effectively do that by billing your estate when you or your partner
:29:33. > :29:35.dies. If you have not been living in your house, if you were living in a
:29:36. > :29:38.care home, the house has always counted as part of your assets and
:29:39. > :29:42.so it counts towards the means testing, if you are very rich or you
:29:43. > :29:47.have an expensive house. But now if you were living in that house, that
:29:48. > :29:52.counts. Quite. But there are limits. So importantly, at the moment the
:29:53. > :29:57.social care system can whittle away your possessions to ?23,000, that is
:29:58. > :30:01.where the means testing stops. Now that will be lifted up to around
:30:02. > :30:05.?100,000. The way to think of it, they want you to have ?100,000 to
:30:06. > :30:10.pass on to your family, that is the classical way of explaining that.
:30:11. > :30:17.This is quite a big package but we've also got some immigration News
:30:18. > :30:25.from the Conservative manifesto. It's a best of the last ten years in
:30:26. > :30:30.a sense. It's tens of thousands, under 100,000 again. Also there are
:30:31. > :30:33.a couple of specific measures on reducing immigration, one of which
:30:34. > :30:38.is a charge on employers of skilled migrants from outside the EU. They
:30:39. > :30:42.are effectively raising taxes on people who employ immigrants.
:30:43. > :30:45.It was the Lib Dems' turn to be centre of attention today,
:30:46. > :30:46.with their manifesto released this morning.
:30:47. > :30:49.A pitch explicitly aimed at not making the Lib Dems
:30:50. > :30:50.the governing party, but the opposition instead.
:30:51. > :30:53.They concede in the second paragraph that Theresa May will win.
:30:54. > :30:58.But the party is the centre of attention in another way too,
:30:59. > :31:00.because it is arguably the surprise of this campaign.
:31:01. > :31:03.One might have thought the clarity of their position on Brexit
:31:04. > :31:06.would have allowed them to suck up Remainer votes in large
:31:07. > :31:08.numbers, but not much sign of that in the polls.
:31:09. > :31:11.Maybe they can pick up particular seats, maybe the promise of a second
:31:12. > :31:21.Before we reflect on that with Vince Cable, David Grossman has
:31:22. > :31:29.been in Wells, in the south west, which was Lib Dem country.
:31:30. > :31:32.This is one of the wells that gives England's smallest city its name.
:31:33. > :31:34.The West Country was also the wellspring of much Lib Dem
:31:35. > :31:36.success in recent years, but the waters of
:31:37. > :31:43.Tim Farron desperately needs today's manifesto launch to get
:31:44. > :31:46.some of the magic back in places like this.
:31:47. > :31:50.The manifesto launch was in a nightclub in east London,
:31:51. > :31:56.Mr Farron promised that his dream of overturning Brexit
:31:57. > :32:05.In June last year, we voted for a departure but we did not
:32:06. > :32:08.So I want you to have your choice over your future.
:32:09. > :32:14.But the forecasts for his party are not sunny.
:32:15. > :32:16.Like this part of the Bishop's Palace in Wells, there's not much
:32:17. > :32:20.left now of the Lib Dems' once magnificent country edifice.
:32:21. > :32:23.In 2010, they won five of the six seats in Somerset and then
:32:24. > :32:26.the little yellow Lib Dem bird was sucked into the vacuum cleaner
:32:27. > :32:36.Tessa Munt was the Lib Dems' MP here up until 2015.
:32:37. > :32:43.Today, she's meeting clients at the Wells food bank.
:32:44. > :32:45.In this month's council elections, she bucked the national trend,
:32:46. > :32:47.winning a council seat from the Tories.
:32:48. > :32:52.Now she's standing on the party's national offer.
:32:53. > :32:55.The Lib Dems' manifesto promises a referendum on the final Brexit
:32:56. > :32:57.deal with an option to stay in the EU.
:32:58. > :33:00.There is help for home-buyers with a rent to own scheme,
:33:01. > :33:02.a promise to reverse ?9.7 billion worth of benefit cuts, and
:33:03. > :33:09.But what status does this manifesto have,
:33:10. > :33:13.given even the Lib Dems say they won't win the election?
:33:14. > :33:16.You absolutely need people like my colleagues and me to stand
:33:17. > :33:22.there and ask the sensible questions in what is a period where we have no
:33:23. > :33:26.idea what Brexit is going to look like on the May agenda.
:33:27. > :33:28.We're definitely going to have Mrs May as Prime Minister,
:33:29. > :33:35.I'm convinced, but it depends on the size of her majority.
:33:36. > :33:37.This is Penniless Porch in Wells where beggars would hold
:33:38. > :33:42.out their hands to worshippers on the way to the cathedral.
:33:43. > :33:45.For Labour, Wells is a distant prospect but they claim to be making
:33:46. > :33:54.Well, I'm out campaigning and I literally choose
:33:55. > :33:58.deliberately places, houses that have got
:33:59. > :34:04.And I go and challenge - why do you have a Lib Dem poster?
:34:05. > :34:07.And I have a stack of Labour ones to replace those once I've had that
:34:08. > :34:10.conversation and I have managed to persuade them that actually
:34:11. > :34:15.James Heappey is the Conservative candidate who deposed
:34:16. > :34:20.If he's looking relaxed, it may be because Ukip,
:34:21. > :34:24.who polled 5500 votes in Wells at the last election,
:34:25. > :34:28.are not fielding a candidate this time around.
:34:29. > :34:31.I'm not sure we've yet found anything that people are sort
:34:32. > :34:36.of uniting behind as a reason to switch across to vote Lib Dem.
:34:37. > :34:39.Their offer seems to be that they want to be in opposition
:34:40. > :34:41.and people seem to think that the general election
:34:42. > :34:46.And I agree with them and I'm not sure that their message
:34:47. > :34:51.is being particularly inspiring on the doorstep.
:34:52. > :34:59.Local support doesn't always show through in a national election.
:35:00. > :35:01.Roger Wilkins has spent 50 years perfecting the art
:35:02. > :35:10.He likes it like he likes his government - strong.
:35:11. > :35:13.I know Tessa very well and I said to her one day, I said, "Tessa,
:35:14. > :35:16.the only trouble is you are one of the best MPs we've
:35:17. > :35:19.ever had but," I said, "you want to get a new boss,"
:35:20. > :35:25.Does the fact that the Lib Dems are saying that we should have
:35:26. > :35:27.another chance to reconsider the Brexit vote...?
:35:28. > :35:29.As far as I'm concerned, we voted to come out,
:35:30. > :35:36.You can't have a vote and then go back.
:35:37. > :35:40.So, if you want loyalty in Wells, meet Bryn and Wyn,
:35:41. > :35:49.Voters, it seems, are somewhat more promiscuous.
:35:50. > :35:52.And here is a list of all the candidates running
:35:53. > :36:02.Sir Vince Cable was the Liberal Democrat MP for Twickenham
:36:03. > :36:04.until 2015 and the secretary of state for business as part
:36:05. > :36:12.He's now fighting to regain his seat at this general election.
:36:13. > :36:19.Good evening. Can I ask about the Tory plans on social care which are
:36:20. > :36:26.causing quite a lot of excitement. Do you think they are going to work?
:36:27. > :36:31.They are a more generous means test, you'd be keeping up to ?100,000 of
:36:32. > :36:36.your house or other possessions. It doesn't deal with the immediate
:36:37. > :36:39.problem of social care, because of the cutback in local authority
:36:40. > :36:44.funding. That's why we've come up with our proposal of 1p on income
:36:45. > :36:47.tax. There's an immediate crisis and it doesn't address that. They are
:36:48. > :36:53.dealing with the long-term problem and is your analysis for some people
:36:54. > :36:57.they are going to lose out badly. Some people are taking care in their
:36:58. > :37:01.own home. I don't understand the basic thrust of their policy because
:37:02. > :37:06.they've held up for eight years in an attempt to get a cross-party
:37:07. > :37:12.agreement on the ground they were opposed to taking money from the
:37:13. > :37:17.property when people die. It seems to be a bit of a U-turn. Does it
:37:18. > :37:23.seem to you to be a death tax? It's your money, they are going to help
:37:24. > :37:32.you pay your bills by lending new money against that death tax...
:37:33. > :37:37.Lending new money against the health? You support it? We have done
:37:38. > :37:41.in the past. What their current policy seems to be missing is the
:37:42. > :37:46.element of personal insurance which was part of the original attempt to
:37:47. > :37:50.get a cross-party agreement under Andrew Dill not. That seems to be
:37:51. > :37:56.missing. They are means testing the winter fuel allowance and they will
:37:57. > :38:01.put that money into care. You are a party supporting the triple lock. In
:38:02. > :38:04.the past you, Nick Clegg and others have suggested it was an anomaly
:38:05. > :38:12.that it was there when pensioners were poor, and maybe it needs to be
:38:13. > :38:16.reviewed. Why are you sticking by the triple lock? Since the financial
:38:17. > :38:22.crisis, elderly people have done relatively well. I don't think you
:38:23. > :38:26.solve that problem by pushing pensioners back into poverty. Until
:38:27. > :38:31.the triple lock was introduced we had a problem that large numbers of
:38:32. > :38:35.people on the state pension were falling below the basic poverty
:38:36. > :38:40.line, getting into means tested benefits, were not claiming. We've
:38:41. > :38:44.dealt with that now because we put the pension up. You don't have to
:38:45. > :38:48.keep it up for ever and ever, do you? I don't quite see the problem
:38:49. > :38:52.with the triple lock. One element has been controversial which is the
:38:53. > :38:57.commitment to 2% minimum increase. Potentially that was a problem, if
:38:58. > :39:02.you have a world of no inflation. But we are moving away from that
:39:03. > :39:08.world now and inflation is expected to be above the Bank of England
:39:09. > :39:12.level. The idea of a pension guarantee seems to be civilised and
:39:13. > :39:17.sensible. One of the issues you have is that you are trying to face into
:39:18. > :39:22.slightly different directions to these south-western seats, quite
:39:23. > :39:27.elderly populations in some cases, and to a slightly younger
:39:28. > :39:32.democratic, more metropolitan and different kind of voters in other
:39:33. > :39:37.seats. Is that why you've got the triple locked in there, to make sure
:39:38. > :39:41.you've got something to pitch to the older voters? They are both
:39:42. > :39:45.legitimate interests and we have a large elderly population who in the
:39:46. > :39:49.past experienced significant problems of pensioner poverty. That
:39:50. > :39:52.problem was alleviated substantially by a reform that the Liberal
:39:53. > :39:59.Democrats pressed for in the coalition and we want to keep it.
:40:00. > :40:03.Let's talk about Brexit. I want to be clear. If I'm in favour of
:40:04. > :40:09.Brexit, and pretty strongly in favour, I shouldn't vote for the Lib
:40:10. > :40:15.Dems, should I? There are many other issues and there are many people who
:40:16. > :40:19.support Brexit but may not be happy with the Ukip style Brexit that the
:40:20. > :40:23.Prime Minister has committed us to. In other words, withdrawing from the
:40:24. > :40:28.single market and customs union. You can't have it both ways. You can't
:40:29. > :40:34.say you should vote for us if you for remain but also if you are for
:40:35. > :40:39.Brexit, it make sense. It's a different issue. People have had
:40:40. > :40:43.that vote, we've had the referendum. A decision has been made to leave
:40:44. > :40:48.and we respect that. We are now dealing with a separate problem
:40:49. > :40:52.which is what happens in two years' time. Why are you putting remain on
:40:53. > :40:59.the ballot when you have your second referendum on it? It doesn't sound
:41:00. > :41:05.like you've accepted it. It does. Tony Blair had a very nice metaphor.
:41:06. > :41:08.He said, look, we've made a decision collectively as a country by a
:41:09. > :41:12.narrow majority to move house but we don't know where we are going. We
:41:13. > :41:16.don't know what the new house looks like. If at the end of the day we
:41:17. > :41:20.are left with a dwelling which is appalling and full of dry rot and
:41:21. > :41:26.rising damp and uninhabitable, the option surely has to be of going
:41:27. > :41:29.back to where we started. We need to leave it there. Thank you.
:41:30. > :41:31.That's all we have time for this evening.
:41:32. > :41:36.Tomorrow it's the Conservatives' manifesto to look forward to.
:41:37. > :41:45.It's been a busy time in Washington too. It's being reported that former
:41:46. > :41:50.FBI director Robert Mueller has been appointed a special prosecuted to
:41:51. > :41:52.take over the investigation into alleged Russian influence on last
:41:53. > :42:09.year 's election. Good night. After soaking rain across a large
:42:10. > :42:11.part of England today, tomorrow will be drier and sunnier. These places
:42:12. > :42:12.beginning