:00:00. > :00:00.Is there any chance at all you're going to look at it again?
:00:07. > :00:12.Testing the meaning of the words strong and stable,
:00:13. > :00:16.the Prime Minister has made a staggering U-turn on social care,
:00:17. > :00:18.and has compounded the embarrassment by pretending she's done
:00:19. > :00:24.I've clarified what we will be putting in the green paper,
:00:25. > :00:27.So Jeremy Corbyn is now rewriting your manifesto?
:00:28. > :00:34.We'll ask what it tells us about Theresa May's
:00:35. > :00:36.style of leadership, and what it tells us
:00:37. > :00:43.I have come around lately to quite a radical idea.
:00:44. > :00:45.I think compulsory voting could actually be the answer.
:00:46. > :00:59.And is anyone think Facebook are any good at acting as a sensor of public
:01:00. > :01:01.discourse? So, why then, does
:01:02. > :01:03.Facebook allows this... Certain arguments go
:01:04. > :01:18.round in circles in this country - the one about a third runway
:01:19. > :01:20.at Heathrow, for example. And the one about how
:01:21. > :01:23.we pay for social care. And today, in what can only be said
:01:24. > :01:26.to be a jaw-dropping move, the Conservatives have,
:01:27. > :01:29.mid-election campaign, reverted to a social care
:01:30. > :01:33.policy they had junked. There will be a lifetime cap
:01:34. > :01:36.on care costs after all. We may be close to a resolution
:01:37. > :01:41.of the care issue, as both Conservative and Labour parties
:01:42. > :01:43.want that cap. The fuss over the Tories' plans
:01:44. > :01:46.of the last few days seem to have nudged the country
:01:47. > :01:49.into a new deal on care. But the other important thing
:01:50. > :01:53.about today is what it has done to the Conservative campaign,
:01:54. > :01:55.built on the supposedly decisive The words "strong and stable"
:01:56. > :01:59.have come back to hit And perhaps bizarrely,
:02:00. > :02:05.the party has attempted to suggest, contrary to the evidence,
:02:06. > :02:21.that there has been no Can you think of anything like this
:02:22. > :02:27.in name election campaign? I can't think of a precedent, a U-turn on a
:02:28. > :02:32.manifesto or a clarification, to use the official parlance. I can only
:02:33. > :02:36.remember general election is going back to 1979. Let's go back to the
:02:37. > :02:41.great Oxford psephologist, who tweeted today about the 20 elections
:02:42. > :02:47.he has covered, you can't think of a U-turn on this scale or indeed one
:02:48. > :02:50.at all. What went wrong? Ministers are saying the Prime Minister was
:02:51. > :02:54.brave and right to face up to the social care crisis and people with
:02:55. > :02:58.means should pay. But they experienced blowback on the doorstep
:02:59. > :03:03.with one Tory candidate telling Newsnight it looked like a plate of
:03:04. > :03:07.sick. Two problems were identified. Firstly, it wasn't fair. If you have
:03:08. > :03:12.cancer, the state will pay for your care. If you have dementia and need
:03:13. > :03:17.to be cared for at home, you will be liable. The second thing they said
:03:18. > :03:21.was that it offends the idea, the Conservative idea, that you should
:03:22. > :03:24.be able to leave a legacy for your children. That wasn't there because
:03:25. > :03:29.it says on the original plans that if you have to pay then you only
:03:30. > :03:34.have a guarantee of ?100,000 left in your estate. Finally they identified
:03:35. > :03:40.Nick Timothy on the Prime Minister's chief of staff, as the culprit. One
:03:41. > :03:44.minister said to me that's the problem with Nick Timothy is that
:03:45. > :03:50.he's a socialist. It has been a strange day for the party and for
:03:51. > :03:53.her. How is it playing tonight? I spoke to one minister who said, if
:03:54. > :03:59.we win the election big then it will be forgotten as a mid-wobble. But
:04:00. > :04:03.there has been quite a lot of criticism of the Prime Minister's
:04:04. > :04:07.refusal throughout the day to acknowledge that she has changed
:04:08. > :04:12.tack and there are echoes of Gordon Brown cancelling the election that
:04:13. > :04:17.never was in 2007, and he said that had nothing to do with the opinion
:04:18. > :04:22.polls. We journalists were told precisely the opposite. It has been
:04:23. > :04:26.quite a big day. We have looked at Theresa May's wobbly Monday.
:04:27. > :04:35.We were promised strong, stable, and consistent leadership. But what's
:04:36. > :04:41.this? A U-turn on one of the central planks in the Conservative general
:04:42. > :04:44.election manifesto. At a tetchy press conference this morning,
:04:45. > :04:50.Theresa May announced there would be an absolute limit on care costs. The
:04:51. > :04:54.Prime Minister dismissed talk of a U-turn because she is upholding a
:04:55. > :05:01.guarantee that elderly people who rely on social care will have
:05:02. > :05:06.?100,000 left in their estate. We have not change the principles of
:05:07. > :05:12.the policy we set out in our manifesto. Those policies... Those
:05:13. > :05:18.policies remain exactly the same. Ministers are in no doubt that this
:05:19. > :05:21.is a U-turn, and a big one at that. They say they are experiencing
:05:22. > :05:25.blowback on the doorstep from natural Tory supporters who say the
:05:26. > :05:30.policy was unfair and offended the Tory principle that you should be
:05:31. > :05:34.able to pass on a legacy to your children. Ministers also have in
:05:35. > :05:37.their sights the Prime Minister's joint Chief of staff, Nick Timothy,
:05:38. > :05:45.who drew up the manifesto in great secrecy. One veteran of numerous
:05:46. > :05:50.Labour manifesto believes Theresa May has damaged her own brand. What
:05:51. > :05:54.she's managed to do today, extraordinarily, is turn her own
:05:55. > :05:58.leadership advantage against Jeremy Corbyn into a corrupted brand. She
:05:59. > :06:01.wants to be strong and stable, the Prime Minister that Stevie and
:06:02. > :06:07.determined and has resolved, but the toing and froing and U-turns and
:06:08. > :06:12.irascibility in press conferences, corrupts the brand of leadership she
:06:13. > :06:16.wants to make her biggest asset. And this isn't the first time our strong
:06:17. > :06:21.and stable Prime Minister has embarked on a U-turn. Others include
:06:22. > :06:25.calling an early general election after definitively ruling one out.
:06:26. > :06:31.Ditching plans in the budget to increase national insurance
:06:32. > :06:35.contributions for the self-employed. Watering down proposals for workers
:06:36. > :06:38.to be given places on company boards. And abandoning plans to
:06:39. > :06:46.oblige companies to declare the proportion of overseas workers.
:06:47. > :06:50.Ministers say the U-turn was prompted in part by an apparent dip
:06:51. > :06:56.in Tory support in weekend opinion polls. But one polling expert thinks
:06:57. > :07:00.the picture is more complex. I think it's really, really easy to see this
:07:01. > :07:03.as a seismic shift in the result of how people are feeling, but actually
:07:04. > :07:07.if you get outside Westminster bubble, people are talking about
:07:08. > :07:11.lots of different issues. Some were talking about the dementia tax, as
:07:12. > :07:17.they call it. Lots were talking about fox hunting. Lots were talking
:07:18. > :07:19.about the Labour policies feeling they were quite attractive and
:07:20. > :07:22.hearing more from Labour about the specifics on what they will do
:07:23. > :07:28.instead of the Conservatives. But there is no doubt the U-turn of 2017
:07:29. > :07:32.will have a lasting impact on how Theresa May is perceived. A former
:07:33. > :07:35.Conservative speech writer who coined the phrase dementia tax
:07:36. > :07:42.believes the U-turn has shown the Prime Minister has rather not Tory
:07:43. > :07:47.views. It doesn't feel very Tory. It perhaps hasn't been thought through
:07:48. > :07:51.as much as it might have been. I think there's probably a danger in
:07:52. > :07:55.government when the press are generally behind you, that you are
:07:56. > :08:00.not perhaps as cautious as you might be. I think perhaps number ten
:08:01. > :08:08.overlooked the kind of reaction they might get from voters. Lord would
:08:09. > :08:12.believes the U-turn has ended up undermining the UK in Brussels.
:08:13. > :08:15.Brexit negotiators in the European Union will smile quietly to
:08:16. > :08:23.themselves because the she has made such a big plate of her steely
:08:24. > :08:29.determination. That has been the big message, not to be messed with, but
:08:30. > :08:34.she has performed a U-turn on a flagship manifesto pledge. That will
:08:35. > :08:39.influence people in the next year and a half. It seems like a classic
:08:40. > :08:43.mid-campaign wobble. Whether it casts a long shadow will depend on
:08:44. > :08:45.whether the Prime Minister secures a decisive election result.
:08:46. > :08:47.We'll talk about leadership and election tactics shortly.
:08:48. > :08:51.But when it comes to social care, is this a case where,
:08:52. > :08:54.to adapt a line from Churchill, we are fumbling towards the right
:08:55. > :09:02.Chris Cook, our policy editor, reports.
:09:03. > :09:08.The English care system is a running problem for the government.
:09:09. > :09:12.Although, to be blunt, it's a problem because we choose it to be a
:09:13. > :09:17.problem. The amounts of money that you need to fix it, are not huge. We
:09:18. > :09:22.are not talking about the hundred billion plus we spend on the health
:09:23. > :09:25.service. An extra two, three or four billion in social care will go an
:09:26. > :09:30.awful long way. It's almost nowhere when you throw it at the NHS. The
:09:31. > :09:33.care system has three moving parts to think of, we call them the
:09:34. > :09:41.savings for comedy care cap and the means test. Let's start with the
:09:42. > :09:45.means test. What asset account when the state works out whether you can
:09:46. > :09:51.get paid for care or not? At the moment if you live in a care home,
:09:52. > :09:55.all your assets count towards a means test. But if you get care in
:09:56. > :09:59.your own home, your house doesn't count to the total. The Tory
:10:00. > :10:05.manifesto last week, though, proposed putting the house in the
:10:06. > :10:10.means test for everyone. A big take away by the government. Today you
:10:11. > :10:15.announced a cap. The point of these proposals is that Mrs May wants more
:10:16. > :10:20.money. In ten years' time there will be 2 million more people over the
:10:21. > :10:25.age of 75. The social care system will collapse unless we do something
:10:26. > :10:31.about it. The second moving part is what we call the floor. Once it's
:10:32. > :10:34.checked your assets, under the current system the state doesn't
:10:35. > :10:39.start helping you out until you have spent your assets down to just over
:10:40. > :10:45.?23,000. The idea is you should have a minimum amount of cash you should
:10:46. > :10:50.keep. Last week, though, the Tories proposed to raise that to ?100,000.
:10:51. > :10:54.This element was a modest giveaway, although it's unclear how modest.
:10:55. > :10:58.It's very hard to know whether the proposals the Conservatives are
:10:59. > :11:01.putting together will cost or save money, particularly the proposals
:11:02. > :11:07.last week, which were to raise money from the Winter fuel allowance and
:11:08. > :11:10.raise money from that in the means testing and spend some on the means
:11:11. > :11:13.test. It wasn't clear without knowing the details of the levels at
:11:14. > :11:17.which all those things would occur what the overall net effect would
:11:18. > :11:22.be. The third element is what we call the cap. This was the part
:11:23. > :11:26.added today. The idea is to say, you might have a load more money than
:11:27. > :11:30.the floor, but even if you get very sick, you should never need to pay
:11:31. > :11:36.more than a fixed amount for your care. Save the cap were ?150,000,
:11:37. > :11:41.even the very rich would never need pay more than that before the state
:11:42. > :11:45.would start to help. The idea is to pool risk, like issuing insurance.
:11:46. > :11:48.When we are faced by something where there is the risk of something
:11:49. > :11:52.really nasty but it's not very likely, we don't all of us want to
:11:53. > :11:57.save enough just in case a nasty risk occurs. We want to save the
:11:58. > :12:00.average amount, spread out across the whole population and join
:12:01. > :12:06.together, recognising that if we are one of the unlucky ones, we will be
:12:07. > :12:10.fully covered. Today we saw a big U-turn, introducing a cap having
:12:11. > :12:15.ruled it out last week. A reminder that it's not just the cost that's a
:12:16. > :12:16.problem with social care, it is the unpredictability and the fact it
:12:17. > :12:19.hits the sickest the hardest. Well, at the beginning
:12:20. > :12:21.of the campaign, when the Tories had huge poll leads,
:12:22. > :12:24.it was said that there would be a Tory wobble,
:12:25. > :12:26.and we are certainly witnessing The polls are moving
:12:27. > :12:29.in Labour's direction. I'm joined by Rachel Sylvester
:12:30. > :12:34.of the Times and Stephen Glover of the Daily Mail, which surprised
:12:35. > :12:37.many of its readers by seemingly supporting the original
:12:38. > :12:49.social care policy. Are you happy that they have put a
:12:50. > :12:54.cap in? I think there is no doubt that the original policy was a clock
:12:55. > :12:58.up, and own goal. Having realised that, having had a panic about the
:12:59. > :13:04.polling over the weekend, Theresa May has done what she had to do,
:13:05. > :13:08.which is to put a cap in. What does it say about her steely
:13:09. > :13:11.determination? I thought she was decisive and listened? I think it
:13:12. > :13:19.says quite a lot of things about her. They obviously rushed at this.
:13:20. > :13:22.I think she is too reliant on one or two advisers. Particularly Nick
:13:23. > :13:26.Timothy, although he's a very clever chap. The policy that was announced
:13:27. > :13:33.on Thursday is kind of leaning to left. And yet it was an own goal and
:13:34. > :13:37.she allowed Jeremy Corbyn to sound plausible in his criticism of it.
:13:38. > :13:40.That's the irony. They didn't think it through. She has done the
:13:41. > :13:45.sensible thing in saying there should be a cap. Spotting she needed
:13:46. > :13:51.to retreat. What does it say about the Daily Mail because your headline
:13:52. > :13:56.was very positive. I don't write the headlines, but the feeling was that
:13:57. > :14:04.it was brave of her to try to tackle the issue. Young people can't be
:14:05. > :14:10.expected to subsidise old people for ever. That was the feeling behind
:14:11. > :14:14.it. Rachel, what do you think it tells us on the policy-making site
:14:15. > :14:17.about Theresa May's mastery of issues perhaps outside the Home
:14:18. > :14:21.Office briefed. She was very strong there where she served for five
:14:22. > :14:25.years. What worries me most is into the U-turn, which I think was
:14:26. > :14:29.sensible. It was that she ended up with this initial policy in the
:14:30. > :14:33.first place. Because it didn't solve any problems in a social care
:14:34. > :14:37.system, as your people explained on the films. The issue is the lottery
:14:38. > :14:41.between those who have certain conditions and those who have other
:14:42. > :14:45.conditions. The policy they put forward didn't deal with that at all
:14:46. > :14:49.so it missed the point. She went through this whole controversy and
:14:50. > :14:53.rout for no purpose. We have ended up in a better place, but it
:14:54. > :14:59.reflects badly on her ability to make policy.
:15:00. > :15:04.And the campaign is around the coalition of chaos under Jeremy
:15:05. > :15:10.Corbyn. Do you think this damages the brand of Theresa May? Of course,
:15:11. > :15:13.she prides herself on her confidence, a safe pair of hands,
:15:14. > :15:18.that is why she is the strong unstable candidate up against Jeremy
:15:19. > :15:25.Corbyn. But this completely undermines that. I can only imagine
:15:26. > :15:34.what you guys would be writing if Labour had you turned on a policy
:15:35. > :15:38.within four days of publishing the manifesto. I think there is no
:15:39. > :15:42.question that she has made a mistake, but having made a mistake,
:15:43. > :15:47.she is trying to dig herself out of it, and I suspect that in a week's
:15:48. > :15:53.time we will have forgotten all about it. The second aspect of this,
:15:54. > :15:58.and in some ways the more surprising, is her inability to
:15:59. > :16:01.stand up and say, it didn't play well, we listened, and just pretend
:16:02. > :16:08.that this was always intended and if you read the manifesto carefully, it
:16:09. > :16:13.never said there wouldn't be a cap. The obsession with looking strong
:16:14. > :16:19.ends up making her look weak, and I think it was bizarre to pretend that
:16:20. > :16:28.what was a U-turn wasn't. I think she is relying too much on her small
:16:29. > :16:34.coterie. It is a U-turn? It is either a shift or a U-turn, she
:16:35. > :16:43.hasn't gone back in the other direction, she has just... She has
:16:44. > :16:52.gone from no cap to cap. It is an own goal, a one. When it comes to
:16:53. > :16:55.Brexit negotiations, you're a European leader, this woman lasts
:16:56. > :17:03.for days under pressure and then caves. What mincemeat are they going
:17:04. > :17:07.to make of her? We surely want a leader who is going to be flexible.
:17:08. > :17:09.We have agreed that she made a mistake, she has realised it and
:17:10. > :17:15.seems to have the policy on the right tracks. We surely want a
:17:16. > :17:19.leader who can back in as the mistakes she has made and face up to
:17:20. > :17:26.them. But she can't do this too often. It is a slight echo of the
:17:27. > :17:31.national insurance in the budget, where they blamed it all upon poor
:17:32. > :17:38.old Hammond, when of course Number 10 knew about it. Do you think the
:17:39. > :17:43.comparison to Gordon Brown is a valid one at this point? Like him,
:17:44. > :17:48.she has a slightly tin ear, so she misses the emotional point of
:17:49. > :17:51.politics, and that is potentially very bad in the European
:17:52. > :17:54.negotiations which will depend on empathy and relationships as well as
:17:55. > :17:59.being a difficult woman. Thank you both indeed, an interesting day.
:18:00. > :18:01.And before we move on, let me tell you that social care
:18:02. > :18:05.is one of the subjects that is bound to come up next week when Newsnight
:18:06. > :18:07.will be debating the generation gap in British politics.
:18:08. > :18:09.It's a special programme coming from Newcastle,
:18:10. > :18:12.and we will have an audience of over 60s and under 30s.
:18:13. > :18:15.If you are in one of those two categories, you may be
:18:16. > :18:25.If you are, do e-mail us at newsnight@bbc.co.uk.
:18:26. > :18:27.OK, our next item is another one that has snagged various political
:18:28. > :18:30.parties in the past - university tuition fees in England.
:18:31. > :18:35.At the last election, Labour promised to cut them to ?6,000.
:18:36. > :18:37.This time the party is going much further,
:18:38. > :18:42.It is, by some margin, the most expensive promise Labour has made.
:18:43. > :18:44.It costs more than four times more than the money
:18:45. > :18:46.they've found for social care, for example.
:18:47. > :18:49.And to make it even more real as a pledge, they've said students
:18:50. > :18:51.starting this September will have their fees
:18:52. > :19:02.So, is this the best way to spend ten billion a year of public funds?
:19:03. > :19:03.I'm joined from Salford by the Shadow Schools
:19:04. > :19:16.Mike, thanks for joining us. Can I just ask, confirmation, really.
:19:17. > :19:22.Students who have already passed through university and got debts of
:19:23. > :19:25.50,000, they will get no help, even though in a way they are paying
:19:26. > :19:31.twice, paying their own university fees and a higher taxes to pay for
:19:32. > :19:36.everyone else's university fees? The average debt the students leaving
:19:37. > :19:39.university is around about ?45,000, and that has come about because
:19:40. > :19:45.under the last Government, tuition fees were tripled, nursing bursaries
:19:46. > :19:49.were abolished and also the maintenance grant of our poorest
:19:50. > :19:53.students, many like myself who relied on to go to university, was
:19:54. > :19:58.also scrapped, in direct violation to the last Tory manifesto. So that
:19:59. > :20:02.is why we have the huge level of toxic that in our graduate
:20:03. > :20:07.population. Your plan is for people to pay higher taxes, and you say
:20:08. > :20:12.those taxes will fall on the very wealthy to pave the university
:20:13. > :20:16.tuition. Those people who have got their 50,000 of debt will both have
:20:17. > :20:21.paid the tuition and pay the higher taxes, is that correct? And you will
:20:22. > :20:24.do nothing for them. Unlike the Conservatives we have a fully costed
:20:25. > :20:33.manifesto. The key thing here will be that... So no help for them? It
:20:34. > :20:38.in your manifesto. We have the most indebted student graduates upon the
:20:39. > :20:44.planet currently, living in a toxic debt cycle. In my constituency I
:20:45. > :20:48.have 3000 people with 5000 children in those families living in toxic
:20:49. > :20:54.debt. We are creating a middle-class toxic debt cycle of students, and
:20:55. > :21:00.the nation just can't afford that going forward. ?80 billion of
:21:01. > :21:05.student debt now among that generation, and the Government's
:21:06. > :21:10.already saying it won't be able to collect one in ?4 of that debt. You
:21:11. > :21:17.said that the party policy is costed. What growth in student
:21:18. > :21:20.numbers have you factored in when you remove the fees? Because
:21:21. > :21:25.obviously the fees must deter some students, that is one of the reasons
:21:26. > :21:29.why you would want to remove them. What growth numbers IU factoring in?
:21:30. > :21:36.You asking about implementation. This starts in autumn 18/19, because
:21:37. > :21:40.there is no way we will be able to get this into the students starting
:21:41. > :21:42.next autumn, although we will retrospectively pay off their
:21:43. > :21:52.student loans for those students starting in the forthcoming autumn
:21:53. > :21:56.term. This is costing around 400,000 students, 366,000 of them are
:21:57. > :22:00.full-time. I don't want to go through the basic costings. Have you
:22:01. > :22:04.factored in growing student numbers as a result of this policy, or are
:22:05. > :22:08.you expecting that the numbers will not grow? Currently because of the
:22:09. > :22:16.toxic debt, universities can't fill the places, and that is the problem,
:22:17. > :22:19.so this is costed at around 400,000 students full-time and part-time.
:22:20. > :22:24.Sorry to interrupt, we don't have much time. Is it not the case that
:22:25. > :22:28.student numbers will grow, or is it your plan to limit the numbers of
:22:29. > :22:33.students who will go to university and put a cap and say it is 400,000
:22:34. > :22:37.or whatever the number is? Brexit taught me three things. People are
:22:38. > :22:44.worried about their skills, immigration and the changing pace of
:22:45. > :22:47.technology in the workplace. People feeling left behind. This is a
:22:48. > :22:51.policy designed for the 21st-century, but people don't feel
:22:52. > :22:57.left behind. I was testing this on the doorstep today... I am going to
:22:58. > :23:05.interrupt, so sorry. Will you ration the number of places at University?
:23:06. > :23:09.No cap. No cap on the number? We will relieve any pressure that comes
:23:10. > :23:13.about because we have already made commitments in higher and further
:23:14. > :23:17.education... But will you tell universities, will you stop their
:23:18. > :23:20.department Lee McCoy expanding, can universities just expand their
:23:21. > :23:24.department as they like and be paid for every student who goes there?
:23:25. > :23:28.Because that is very different as was one we had no fees, the numbers
:23:29. > :23:31.were controlled and universities were told how many students they
:23:32. > :23:36.could take a different subject areas. Is your proposal that any
:23:37. > :23:41.university can expand as much as they want and anybody can go to
:23:42. > :23:44.university and the Government pays? University can't do that currently
:23:45. > :23:47.because they can't fill places because young people won't take on
:23:48. > :23:52.that level of debt. But it is up to them to make that decision? Will it
:23:53. > :23:59.remain their decision or will it be yours? I met a student who graduated
:24:00. > :24:06.two years ago today with ?47,000 worth of debt. She does and
:24:07. > :24:10.administration job at ?17,500. She won't go for a promotion because she
:24:11. > :24:13.will cross the threshold of ?21,000. These people will never pay that
:24:14. > :24:19.debt back. We have students living with their parents into their 30s
:24:20. > :24:27.and 40s... I understand it is not nice. We can't allow our young
:24:28. > :24:31.people, they can't even rely on the bank of mum and dad after the
:24:32. > :24:35.dementia tax. How can you say the policy is costed if you have said
:24:36. > :24:39.there will be no rationing of places and you have not allowed for any
:24:40. > :24:43.growth in the numbers of students? One of the things one would assume
:24:44. > :24:45.is there will be more students if it is free to go to university.
:24:46. > :24:53.Somewhere, the policy doesn't add up. The policy is fully costed, as
:24:54. > :24:56.all our policies are and have been tested from outside the political
:24:57. > :25:05.realm as well. This is a commitment with ?9.5 billion to fourth --
:25:06. > :25:10.400,000 students per annum. Students at a level now can register to vote
:25:11. > :25:16.by midnight tonight and they have a real choice coming forward as what
:25:17. > :25:19.they want society to look like, what they can achieve it university going
:25:20. > :25:26.forward. Mr Kane, thank you very much for joining us.
:25:27. > :25:29.Now, is Facebook a publisher of content, like the BBC, or a platform
:25:30. > :25:32.on which content appears, like a manufacturer of A4 paper?
:25:33. > :25:34.The organisation seems to think of itself as something in between.
:25:35. > :25:37.We know this thanks to the Guardian, which has published Facebook
:25:38. > :25:39.guidelines on what content is acceptable and what
:25:40. > :25:50.The moderators themselves seem to find them confusing.
:25:51. > :25:52.Clearly not everything is acceptable to Facebook.
:25:53. > :25:58.Spencer Kelly, the presenter of the BBC technology
:25:59. > :26:00.magazine programme Click, has been trying to
:26:01. > :26:16.Somewhere in the mid-90s, the World Wide Web became the wild wild West,
:26:17. > :26:20.seemingly full of filth, crime and crazy fonts. Many mainstream users
:26:21. > :26:26.welcomed Facebook with open arms, and nice, clean, tidy, safe wall
:26:27. > :26:31.garden where everyone looked nice, everyone was your friend, and cats
:26:32. > :26:37.could be grumpy and safety. So why, then, does Facebook allow this. All
:26:38. > :26:41.this? Shocking though they may seem, they don't break the rules here.
:26:42. > :26:45.Facebook's terms and conditions outlined what it expects from its
:26:46. > :26:50.users. The text is longer than the US Constitution, but then, why not?
:26:51. > :26:56.Its population is six times as large, after all. And on the inside,
:26:57. > :27:00.Facebook moderators use very specific rules on flow charts to
:27:01. > :27:06.determine what violates those terms and conditions, and it is these
:27:07. > :27:10.leaked guidelines that show how a social network is trying to tread
:27:11. > :27:15.the line between being accused of censorship and being accused of
:27:16. > :27:20.being a platform of racists, pornographers. If you want to create
:27:21. > :27:24.the world's most popular social networking site, you will face a few
:27:25. > :27:28.problems. First, size. As your popularity explodes until you are
:27:29. > :27:37.receiving 1 million up dates every single minute, how'd you check them
:27:38. > :27:41.all? Well, you can't. You can use algorithms to block the more
:27:42. > :27:44.obviously unacceptable content, but after that, you've got to rely on
:27:45. > :27:49.your users to report things that they find offensive. Then your team
:27:50. > :27:53.of moderators can take a look, that even now they are reportedly
:27:54. > :27:57.struggling to spend more than a few seconds on each case of extortion,
:27:58. > :28:01.child abuse, violence or hate speech to determine whether it is
:28:02. > :28:06.inappropriate. And second, inappropriate to who, anyway? You
:28:07. > :28:09.want to be truly global. You want to be a platform for free speech and
:28:10. > :28:16.free expression. Whose laws and values should you uphold? British
:28:17. > :28:22.tastes are too liberal for some countries, whilst we find some of
:28:23. > :28:25.their laws unacceptable. It is a standard social network argument
:28:26. > :28:29.these days, that the responsibility for all this shouldn't lie with the
:28:30. > :28:34.website itself. Facebook wants to be seen as a platform, not a publisher.
:28:35. > :28:39.But that chestnut might just be getting a bit old. So it's not
:28:40. > :28:44.really about platform or publisher or pipeline. There is a much bigger
:28:45. > :28:49.issue. There is the issue of cyberspace as an environment. So in
:28:50. > :28:53.the environmental movement, there is a principle called the precautionary
:28:54. > :28:58.principle, which puts the onus on companies not to pollute the
:28:59. > :29:03.environment. So when it comes to social media, who was responsible
:29:04. > :29:07.for the clean-up? And if its reputation as a polluted causes
:29:08. > :29:13.users to go elsewhere, so will the advertisers who I think may just
:29:14. > :29:17.have the biggest say in what is and isn't appropriate here.
:29:18. > :29:20.Spencer Kelly from click. Dr Jennifer Pybus is senior lecturer
:29:21. > :29:23.at the London College of Communication, University
:29:24. > :29:24.of the Arts, London. Her main research area is
:29:25. > :29:27.the political economy of big data. Jim Killock is the executive
:29:28. > :29:29.director of Open Rights Group, a digital civil liberties
:29:30. > :29:41.organization. Just a quick one, is it good that we
:29:42. > :29:46.know what the guidelines are? Is it good that it's in the public domain?
:29:47. > :29:51.Absolutely. Maybe the bigger question now is, why is this after
:29:52. > :29:56.Facebook has been in operation since 2005 is this the first glance we are
:29:57. > :30:00.seeing at the ways in which they regulate content. Are you glad we
:30:01. > :30:04.are seeing it or is it their own business? I'm glad we get some
:30:05. > :30:07.insight into this. We have to recognise that if those people who
:30:08. > :30:17.are game the rules nor exactly what the rules are, it will be a problem.
:30:18. > :30:24.-- gaming the rules. This doesn't surprise me in the least. Anybody
:30:25. > :30:27.could watch the moderators on Vimeo that will show you what happens with
:30:28. > :30:35.the moderators and the training they go through. This is a fictional
:30:36. > :30:40.thing? No, it's a real documentary. But we have seen the mistakes made
:30:41. > :30:44.down the years. It's not surprising. They are rigid rules and badly
:30:45. > :30:47.applied a lot of the time. Let's take the question of platform
:30:48. > :30:51.against publisher. Where are you on that one? I think if we think about
:30:52. > :30:56.what Facebook is, they want to present themselves as both. On the
:30:57. > :30:59.one hand, if they are a platform, we understand Facebook for what it
:31:00. > :31:05.really is, an entity trying to make as much money as possible. Money of
:31:06. > :31:09.all the data that its 1.9 billion users upload every single moment of
:31:10. > :31:14.the day dustup as a publisher we have to be really careful because
:31:15. > :31:17.what does publishing actually mean? It is not a normal publisher because
:31:18. > :31:23.it doesn't produce its own content. It doesn't take responsibility for
:31:24. > :31:27.its content. They don't produce it, they just put it out there. They
:31:28. > :31:32.cure rate the content, which is interesting. They say they just
:31:33. > :31:38.manage it, they put it up there, but they don't take responsibility for
:31:39. > :31:41.what's in the content. You are thinking they are more likely
:31:42. > :31:46.publisher than platform and they can't walk away from taking some
:31:47. > :31:52.responsibility? They have to take responsibility. What about you? I
:31:53. > :31:56.think what they rely on is their ability to take enough
:31:57. > :32:04.responsibility for their users to want to continue to use them. We say
:32:05. > :32:07.that, your package said it was about the advertisers, but the advertisers
:32:08. > :32:11.are only interested if they have users and the users will only stay
:32:12. > :32:14.if they have a nice time and like the product and don't find things
:32:15. > :32:18.more offensive than they can cope with and the overall experience is
:32:19. > :32:23.positive. Of course Facebook wants to moderate because it once its
:32:24. > :32:28.users to be happy. What's the right standard for them to moderate to?
:32:29. > :32:34.The BBC moderate is everything. To quite a high standard. Would you
:32:35. > :32:39.like Facebook to moderate away everything that's kind of offensive,
:32:40. > :32:43.or only everything that is so offensive it really is illegal or
:32:44. > :32:48.almost illegal? I think we need to stand back. If Facebook's mandate is
:32:49. > :32:52.to make as much money as possible, what is its goal in terms of the
:32:53. > :32:56.content it is curating for its users? It once its users to spend as
:32:57. > :33:00.much time as possible on that platform. If that is the goal, then
:33:01. > :33:06.it wants to give users contend that it will find interesting, that they
:33:07. > :33:08.will share and pass on. In that sense the responsibility for
:33:09. > :33:12.themselves if they want to make sure their users are happy. As a society
:33:13. > :33:16.we are allowed to say to Facebook, we are interested in what you are
:33:17. > :33:20.doing because you are a big player. What would you like the standard to
:33:21. > :33:24.be? There needs to be another third party that sits in there and helps
:33:25. > :33:29.them decide how to moderate. Somebody else helps moderate?
:33:30. > :33:34.Absolutely. I'm not keen on that, I have to say. As soon as we say third
:33:35. > :33:41.party, that says to meet government, or something that is even easier to
:33:42. > :33:44.moderate than Facebook and that means more censorious practices than
:33:45. > :33:51.Facebook has right now. I worry about that as an idea. They are
:33:52. > :33:54.quite censorious, actually. The rules are often fairly arbitrary and
:33:55. > :33:59.don't often make sense, but the end goal Facebook has got is to censor a
:34:00. > :34:08.lot more content than we would ever dare sensor in a legal sense. How
:34:09. > :34:14.far would you go? The one the papers have made a lot of today is this
:34:15. > :34:19.one. To snap a woman's next, apply pressure to the middle of your
:34:20. > :34:25.throat. Deeply offensive, but should it be removed? We need to understand
:34:26. > :34:28.the context in which it is put out there. It is problematic and
:34:29. > :34:34.worrying. That's why everyone is paying attention to it right now.
:34:35. > :34:38.What all of this unveils is the way in which this is managed, we could
:34:39. > :34:41.call it a black box. The algorithm that decides what content will be
:34:42. > :34:47.seen and erased for the first time is open for us to take a look at.
:34:48. > :34:51.People are now intervening in the debate and saying, we have to have
:34:52. > :34:55.these bigger conversations. If we are precluding those conversations
:34:56. > :35:01.and just allowing Facebook to do it by themselves, I think that's a
:35:02. > :35:03.problem. 1.9 billion people on there all producing content. We have to
:35:04. > :35:05.leave it there. Thank you both very much.
:35:06. > :35:08.The deadline for registering for the vote on June the 8th passes
:35:09. > :35:11.You have until the clock strikes midnight.
:35:12. > :35:14.But some of us are far more likely to turn out than others.
:35:15. > :35:17.Turnout has historically always been lower among young voters and those
:35:18. > :35:19.from black and ethnic minority backgrounds in particular.
:35:20. > :35:21.We asked the writer Afua Hirsch to explore this for us.
:35:22. > :35:24.Here's her take on the problem as she sees it, and an idea
:35:25. > :35:39.Conversations at this gym in Tottenham can get very political.
:35:40. > :35:42.But the sentiments expressed here are not necessarily landing any
:35:43. > :35:47.Yeah, yeah, I feel people feel incredibly
:35:48. > :35:51.They feel like political parties don't represent them enough.
:35:52. > :35:54.It really does feel like a men's private club.
:35:55. > :35:56.You know what I mean, where they just influence everything
:35:57. > :36:00.and we are just left out in the dark.
:36:01. > :36:03.Derek, the gym's owner and a mentor to many of its young people,
:36:04. > :36:06.feels they have been left behind by government and are having having
:36:07. > :36:12.Scotland feels alienated from Westminster, but people
:36:13. > :36:15.who are five or ten miles down the road are equally alienated.
:36:16. > :36:21.I think, again, young people can change it,
:36:22. > :36:24.but at the moment the politics that a lot of the young men and women
:36:25. > :36:27.have got to deal with is getting from home to school,
:36:28. > :36:35.This disillusionment goes some way towards explaining why black
:36:36. > :36:39.and minority ethnic voters, as well as those aged 18 to 25
:36:40. > :36:43.are less likely to vote than all other groups.
:36:44. > :36:50.According to recent research, 57% of 18-24-year-olds did not vote
:36:51. > :36:57.That's more than double the number of over 65-year-olds.
:36:58. > :36:59.Registered black and minority voters had a turnout of only 51%.
:37:00. > :37:05.And 24% of eligible black voters are not on the voter register,
:37:06. > :37:11.compared to just 14% of eligible white voters.
:37:12. > :37:18.According to the campaign group, Operation Black Vote,
:37:19. > :37:21.getting out to vote is more than just a matter of principle.
:37:22. > :37:28.When you look at 50 of the most marginal seats in the country,
:37:29. > :37:31.30 of them could easily be influenced by the black
:37:32. > :37:36.Could that vote actually sway the outcome, is that
:37:37. > :37:41.That vote could decide who wins and who loses in this
:37:42. > :37:47.When you consider that Theresa May has a working majority of 12,
:37:48. > :37:51.and we could significantly influence 30, maybe even 70, then we are big
:37:52. > :38:02.Many young people are politicised, but I think there's something
:38:03. > :38:05.about the often arcane language of politics and the way it's
:38:06. > :38:13.This debating event, or democracy cafe, in south London,
:38:14. > :38:16.is run by young people, for young people, in an attempt
:38:17. > :38:22.One of the barriers for young people not voting is just
:38:23. > :38:25.because they don't or didn't get to learn about it enough.
:38:26. > :38:27.If they were taught about it in schools from early primary
:38:28. > :38:29.school, secondary school, I think more young people
:38:30. > :38:35.There are a lot of adults who merely think, oh,
:38:36. > :38:37.young people never vote, so they shouldn't even be
:38:38. > :38:42.Or they shouldn't even be, I guess, let into certain things
:38:43. > :38:49.But how would more voting among these groups affect the outcome?
:38:50. > :38:52.Traditionally both young and minority voters have been
:38:53. > :38:58.Recent polling has found that's changing.
:38:59. > :39:02.In 1997, Labour received 80% of the black and ethnic minority vote.
:39:03. > :39:06.Data from YouGov suggests one in four now support the Tories.
:39:07. > :39:09.A lot of my friends that I am at university with are actually
:39:10. > :39:11.voting Conservative, and some of them actively support
:39:12. > :39:13.the Conservative Party outside of just voting.
:39:14. > :39:16.And part of that is because actually they want to start businesses
:39:17. > :39:19.or have gone to work for businesses and they have seen the business
:39:20. > :39:25.It's a serious problem for democracy, when elections
:39:26. > :39:28.are essentially hijacked by specific demographic groups.
:39:29. > :39:32.In this case, over 65s, white voters, as well as other
:39:33. > :39:35.categories like those who own their own homes.
:39:36. > :39:39.It undermines the entire credibility of the Parliamentary process.
:39:40. > :39:41.And it seems that the changes required to remedy that
:39:42. > :39:46.It may require something more radical and I think it's compulsory
:39:47. > :39:54.I absolutely think people ought to be compelled to not only vote,
:39:55. > :40:00.So if you have a national insurance number, you should be registered
:40:01. > :40:04.There are millions of people not even registered,
:40:05. > :40:07.some 7 million people, not even on the electoral register.
:40:08. > :40:17.There are 25 countries with compulsory voting laws,
:40:18. > :40:19.including Australia, whose turnout in the last
:40:20. > :40:27.It matters. It matters.
:40:28. > :40:30.It's an idea I discussed with director of research
:40:31. > :40:33.with the young activist group Bite the Ballot, Kenny Imafidon.
:40:34. > :40:37.I have come around lately to quite a radical idea which I think might
:40:38. > :40:40.solve all the problems you're talking about.
:40:41. > :40:43.I think compulsory voting could actually be the answer.
:40:44. > :40:49.I don't feel like we're in that sort of, I don't know,
:40:50. > :40:51.state of emergency, where we need to consider compulsory voting.
:40:52. > :40:56.Maybe once after we get people the education they need in school,
:40:57. > :41:00.and we have a generation of people who have been taught that in school.
:41:01. > :41:03.So you don't think it's that big a problem, the fact that so...
:41:04. > :41:06.Young people and people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds
:41:07. > :41:12.You don't think we have reached crisis point yet?
:41:13. > :41:14.I feel like we can do that whole process without
:41:15. > :41:18.At the end of the day, people have a right to vote
:41:19. > :41:21.and the right not to, and I feel like sometimes we have
:41:22. > :41:24.to allow people to have their right, if they choose not to vote as well.
:41:25. > :41:27.It was once said that in a democracy, it's
:41:28. > :41:29.not an election itself, but the act of voting
:41:30. > :41:44.And this democracy is leaving far too many behind.
:41:45. > :41:53.Some breaking news of some kind of incident at the Manchester Arena.
:41:54. > :41:56.Details are sketchy but Greater Manchester Police have confirmed
:41:57. > :42:02.they are at the scene and have urged people to avoid the area. Some
:42:03. > :42:05.pictures from social media, unverified reports on social media
:42:06. > :42:11.there might have been explosions. Buster Ariana Grande a was
:42:12. > :42:17.performing at the Arena earlier. -- pop star. More details on the
:42:18. > :42:21.website and news channel.