:00:07. > :00:14.Manchester remembers: A city known for its noise comes
:00:15. > :00:27.Police close in on those linked to the attacker.
:00:28. > :00:31.The general election is two weeks today.
:00:32. > :00:34.Tonight, the first sense of how Manchester's tragedy may shape
:00:35. > :00:46.Tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn will return to the campaign Trail in a major
:00:47. > :00:48.speech in which he appears to draw a direct connection between British
:00:49. > :00:55.foreign policy and terrorist attacks.
:00:56. > :00:57.And have voters minds been changed by what's happened?
:00:58. > :00:59.I never would imagine a bomb in Manchester,
:01:00. > :01:01.not in a big venue like that, anywhere in the whole
:01:02. > :01:07.And now security, national security, is a main issue for me.
:01:08. > :01:09.Meanwhile Newsnight has uncovered new details
:01:10. > :01:23.We have information tonight that Salman Abedi may have fought
:01:24. > :01:25.in Libya in the civil war that ousted Colonel Gadaffi.
:01:26. > :01:28.And we'll be talking about all of this with a former home
:01:29. > :01:29.secretary, and discussing whether the government's
:01:30. > :01:48.It's not often you hear this city go silent.
:01:49. > :01:54.When it does, the effect is overwhelming.
:01:55. > :01:57.At 11 o'clock they came here to mourn, to mark a moment
:01:58. > :02:00.of silence and then to try - and pick up their lives.
:02:01. > :02:03.The Queen paid her respects to survivors at the children's
:02:04. > :02:05.hospital, thanking medical staff on the front line of this tragedy.
:02:06. > :02:08.And the police investigation closed in on those linked to the killer.
:02:09. > :02:10.This week has been a broadly politics-free zone.
:02:11. > :02:13.Jeremy Corbyn will invoke Manchester's tragedy to talk
:02:14. > :02:15.about the connection between foreign policy and terrorism.
:02:16. > :02:18.It is cautiously worded but unmistakable in its message -
:02:19. > :02:25.Nick Watt is on College Green in Westminster for us and can
:02:26. > :02:29.talk us through what it will contain, Nick?
:02:30. > :02:35.As you said, tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn will directly address the Manchester
:02:36. > :02:39.bombing as the general election campaign resumes. In remarks being
:02:40. > :02:43.interpreted in some quarters as drawing a link between recent UK
:02:44. > :02:47.military interventions and the bombing, the leader of the Labour
:02:48. > :02:52.Party will say that "Many experts have pointed to the connections
:02:53. > :02:56.between wars our government has supported or fought in in other
:02:57. > :03:03.countries and terrorism here at home." It's important to bear in
:03:04. > :03:09.mind that Mr Corbyn also says his remarks "In no way reduce the guilt
:03:10. > :03:13.of those who attack our children." The reason he's saying this is
:03:14. > :03:18.because he's setting out how future Labour government would embark on
:03:19. > :03:21.what he calls an informed, understanding of the causes of
:03:22. > :03:26.terrorism. At one of all these remarks are not a surprise. Jeremy
:03:27. > :03:32.Corbyn has opposed all recent military intervention by the UK.
:03:33. > :03:39.Obviously the timing, just four days after the Manchester attack is
:03:40. > :03:45.significant. The speech will come tomorrow. What kind of reaction will
:03:46. > :03:51.we expect from it? I spoke to a Labour candidate in the North West
:03:52. > :03:56.who described these remarks as horrible. The candidate said "This
:03:57. > :04:02.is the wrong moment to politicise these events." I spoke to another
:04:03. > :04:06.member of the party who is not a fan of Corbyn and this person said,
:04:07. > :04:14."There is some truth in what Jeremy Corbyn is saying." Just before we
:04:15. > :04:19.move on their is a new poll out tonight. I understand this was taken
:04:20. > :04:23.before the events on Monday night but what figures is it coming out
:04:24. > :04:28.with? It isn't long ago that the Conservatives were 15, 18, 20 points
:04:29. > :04:34.ahead in the polls. In a YouGov poll in the Times tomorrow, the lead of
:04:35. > :04:40.the Conservatives is just five points. What you look with is a
:04:41. > :04:43.pattern in the polls and recently they have tightened, but not as
:04:44. > :04:50.dramatically as this, so what you'll be looking for, is there a pattern
:04:51. > :04:54.in other polls? Why is this happening? It seems that the
:04:55. > :04:58.Conservative manifesto launch didn't go off well, they did a U-turn on a
:04:59. > :05:01.big pledge on social care. YouGov had some polling that showed that
:05:02. > :05:08.when you asked people what they thought of the main policies of the
:05:09. > :05:11.parties, the main one is identified on the Labour Party were positive,
:05:12. > :05:16.scrapping university tuition fees and more money for the NHS. The
:05:17. > :05:20.Conservative main policies identified were negative and
:05:21. > :05:26.controversial ones, social care and scrapping free school meals. Thanks.
:05:27. > :05:29.Campaigning for the general election was put on pause this week.
:05:30. > :05:31.Today, Ukip launched their manifesto saying it was time
:05:32. > :05:33.for daily life to resume or it would spell victory
:05:34. > :05:40.But how does Manchester get back to normal -
:05:41. > :05:42.and what effect will its tragedy have on people's priorities,
:05:43. > :05:51.I've been out on the streets here with candidates, voters,
:05:52. > :05:54.and a mother whose three children were all at the bombed
:05:55. > :06:04.Three days on from the terror you find a City that is outwardly
:06:05. > :06:09.landing on its feet. Perhaps parents are watching their young that bit
:06:10. > :06:16.more closely. Perhaps you spot armed guards amongst the ice creams. What
:06:17. > :06:20.does normal really look like? When the inconceivable has happened on
:06:21. > :06:23.your doorstep. Will voters think differently about the general
:06:24. > :06:30.election now two weeks today? I don't think so, my mind was made up
:06:31. > :06:35.before. It won't make any difference whatsoever. It won't change my mind,
:06:36. > :06:40.everything stays the same, Manchester will get back up and get
:06:41. > :06:45.together. The pause in campaigning has been recognised by all parties
:06:46. > :06:47.as the appropriate thing to do. And yet arguably it presents more of a
:06:48. > :06:52.problem for the parties of opposition. The Conservative
:06:53. > :06:56.candidate for Maidenhead also happens to be the PM and at a time
:06:57. > :06:59.of national crisis the party of government is the one that assumes
:07:00. > :07:06.the role of leadership, the one that looks to be in control. Ukip broke
:07:07. > :07:09.with the pact today, back on the campaign with their manifesto launch
:07:10. > :07:16.and their candidate is unrepentant. The issues regarding radical Islam.
:07:17. > :07:20.Ukip are the only people willing to talk about it, the only people with
:07:21. > :07:26.the courage to raise these issues, to discuss them in public and find a
:07:27. > :07:29.way to improve the situation. A local fire crew are housed in the
:07:30. > :07:36.Labour HQ of Manchester here and their local MP said that he won't be
:07:37. > :07:40.campaigning until Monday. Have you thought of the words you're going to
:07:41. > :07:45.use and how you're going to formulate it, is it going to make
:07:46. > :07:49.reference to what happened? I have a very adversarial approach to
:07:50. > :07:53.politics and that is inevitable in our system. At a time when
:07:54. > :07:57.Manchester has come together and been at United it is difficult to
:07:58. > :08:03.resume the adversarial approach. But that's part of our politics so what
:08:04. > :08:06.we want to do is to resume the campaigning in a positive sense, a
:08:07. > :08:13.positive manner and hope we don't get the kind of slanging matches we
:08:14. > :08:18.unfortunately have as part of our natural politics. You don't have to
:08:19. > :08:22.go far in this neighbourhood to find those who rubbed shoulders with
:08:23. > :08:27.tragedy on Monday night. All three of this lady's children were at the
:08:28. > :08:30.concert when the bomb hit. But for a chest infection she explains she
:08:31. > :08:35.would have been in the foyer to pick-up her girls. I would have been
:08:36. > :08:41.waiting for them with the parents and that is a terrifying thought.
:08:42. > :08:46.You know, it is just circumstances, I wasn't there and they were and
:08:47. > :08:50.thank God my children were saved, my children came home safe to me. Many
:08:51. > :08:53.other children didn't go home to their parents and it is
:08:54. > :08:57.heartbreaking to think of that. As it was her 26-year-old son
:08:58. > :09:07.shepherded his younger sisters safely towards the exit, a hero in
:09:08. > :09:13.her eyes. INAUDIBLE Is that what you think? Yes, I am so
:09:14. > :09:22.grateful. It could have been the last one. So has it changed her
:09:23. > :09:26.focus as a voter? The security of the country wasn't really a top
:09:27. > :09:29.priority for me in the past. This is a very secure country, Britain is
:09:30. > :09:34.one of the safest countries in the world, especially Manchester. I
:09:35. > :09:41.would never imagine a bomb in Manchester, not at a big venue,
:09:42. > :09:44.anywhere in this country. Now, security, national security is a
:09:45. > :09:51.main issue for me. I can't believe that Isis has come to the streets of
:09:52. > :09:57.Manchester. The Lib Dems talk about time lost over the last few days.
:09:58. > :10:02.There are headquarters is a hive of activity. The people here are young
:10:03. > :10:07.but I wonder if the party of civil liberties finds itself at odds with
:10:08. > :10:12.the national mood? I think civil liberties are a very important issue
:10:13. > :10:15.for a lot of people. I would hope that no political party would try
:10:16. > :10:21.and get some political advantage out of a tragedy like the terrorist
:10:22. > :10:25.incident in Manchester but actually, it focuses people's minds on the
:10:26. > :10:31.important issues and I think people in this part of Manchester believe
:10:32. > :10:39.that civil liberties are important. A minute's silence at 11 marking a
:10:40. > :10:42.moment to member the dead. -- to remember the dead.
:10:43. > :10:52.APPLAUSE It ended in applause, releasing a
:10:53. > :10:57.kind of permission for the living to carry on with their lives. Will the
:10:58. > :11:02.voters want to hear the Manchester tragedy reflected in the campaigning
:11:03. > :11:08.of politicians? Campaigning resumes tomorrow and it may be much clearer
:11:09. > :11:09.then. We tried to talk to the Conservatives. They weren't
:11:10. > :11:12.available. And there are full lists
:11:13. > :11:15.of all of the candidates standing in Greater Manchester's
:11:16. > :11:16.constituencies on the BBC's website. And that's it from me
:11:17. > :11:19.from St Ann's Square tonight. More on how the police investigation
:11:20. > :11:21.is unfolding later - but for now back to Kirsty
:11:22. > :11:23.in the studio. We'll hear more about
:11:24. > :11:27.the investigation into the suspected But first, we heard earlier how
:11:28. > :11:33.Jeremy Corbyn is planning to hit the issues raised by the attack
:11:34. > :11:42.head-on when he returns to We asked to speak to somebody from
:11:43. > :11:43.the Labour campaign but nobody was available.
:11:44. > :11:45.Well, Charles Clarke was Home Secretary at the time
:11:46. > :11:48.of the 7/7 bombings and is with me now.
:11:49. > :11:56.Thank you for joining us. With evening. We will come onto how more
:11:57. > :11:59.broadly we will combat terrorism but let's deal first of all with Jeremy
:12:00. > :12:03.Corbyn returning to the fray tomorrow morning. You heard the
:12:04. > :12:08.Labour candidate in Manchester saying he finds it difficult to see
:12:09. > :12:13.how they will be an adversarial approach. This is adversarial but
:12:14. > :12:18.Jeremy Corbyn feels that the war on terrorism working. Is he right? I
:12:19. > :12:23.don't think he is right, I haven't taken his advice on security matters
:12:24. > :12:29.in some decades and I don't take his remarks tomorrow, if correctly
:12:30. > :12:32.reported. They are wrong. These attacks have come from forces that
:12:33. > :12:38.are about trying to destroy the whole of our society, before the
:12:39. > :12:46.Iraq war and the wars in Syria. It is about the eliminating the right
:12:47. > :12:50.of young people to go to the event like we had in Manchester, removing
:12:51. > :12:55.a programme like that, it is about creating a caliphate. In an excerpt
:12:56. > :13:02.from the speech he is going to make he will say that we will do... That
:13:03. > :13:05.many experts have pointed to the connection between wars our
:13:06. > :13:09.government has supported or fought in other countries and terrorism at
:13:10. > :13:17.home. I mean, some people would suggest... I wonder if it is
:13:18. > :13:21.trivial, it is true that there are networks, before July seven, maybe
:13:22. > :13:26.there is some link with what is going on in Syria and the individual
:13:27. > :13:31.who has committed this atrocity in Manchester but that isn't the motive
:13:32. > :13:34.force. The motive force is about the destruction of the core elements of
:13:35. > :13:37.our society and that isn't something that's about foreign policy.
:13:38. > :13:43.Something in Syria, something in Iraq. It is about a totally opposed
:13:44. > :13:48.vision of what society should be. Of course he has opposed foreign
:13:49. > :13:51.conflicts which suggests a Labour government would not support
:13:52. > :13:57.intervention in Syria, intervention in Libya. You'd have to ask him on
:13:58. > :14:01.that question. It's been a massive issue of discussion in the Labour
:14:02. > :14:04.Party and much more widely. There are a set of issues about the right
:14:05. > :14:09.circumstances in which support should take place but you must
:14:10. > :14:11.acknowledge in this difficult debate that not getting involved has
:14:12. > :14:19.consequences just as much as getting involved. Do you think, given what
:14:20. > :14:23.he may say tomorrow, that he is prime ministerial material? I have
:14:24. > :14:26.never thought that but he is the Labour Party leader, I will be
:14:27. > :14:31.voting and I hope that Labour does well because we don't want a Theresa
:14:32. > :14:36.May government with a barren field in front of them. I can't save with
:14:37. > :14:41.integrity that I believe Jeremy Corbyn is Prime Minister material.
:14:42. > :14:46.Moving on and moving back to the time of 7/7, you were the Hutton
:14:47. > :14:50.Secretary. Just before then you had started to introduce a number of
:14:51. > :14:55.anti-terrorist is, one of which was ID cards which went to Royal assent
:14:56. > :15:02.-- you were the Home Secretary. Then in 2010 Theresa May overturned that.
:15:03. > :15:04.It was her first act. Do you believe that if we had ID cards now, we
:15:05. > :15:14.would be in a different position? You can't say if only that hadn't
:15:15. > :15:18.been done this bomber wouldn't have succeeded. It is easier to create a
:15:19. > :15:21.climate for the terrorist organisations to work. ID cards are
:15:22. > :15:25.one of those things. A good control order regime that Theresa May also
:15:26. > :15:28.abolished when she came in is one of those things. A good community
:15:29. > :15:32.policing system with police and community support officer properly
:15:33. > :15:36.funded is another. You have to do all of those things but you can't
:15:37. > :15:41.say, if only we'd had ID cards, then this attack wouldn't have happened.
:15:42. > :15:46.If we look at this particular Salman Abedi case, there seems to be some
:15:47. > :15:51.suggestion that security services over time have missed chances to
:15:52. > :15:56.actually home in on him. Do we have to accept that is the nature of our
:15:57. > :16:02.anti-terrorist police in? That some will get through the net? That's the
:16:03. > :16:06.risk, that's why we've got the security levels we have at the
:16:07. > :16:12.moment. You can't ignore resources for our security services. They have
:16:13. > :16:16.to look at thousands of people who might be risks. They have to make
:16:17. > :16:20.judgments about where to prioritise. The overall background is the
:16:21. > :16:23.resources situation. I know Labour has said there have been police cuts
:16:24. > :16:27.but if you take somebody like Andy Burnham speaking from the Manchester
:16:28. > :16:31.perspective, what he would say and has said is its disproportionate
:16:32. > :16:35.now, the police on London streets and the streets of other cities to
:16:36. > :16:41.the United Kingdom. Also I was wondering if you think the style of
:16:42. > :16:44.policing we need to move far more to intelligence led policing?
:16:45. > :16:47.Completely, but the core is intelligence led policing. Our
:16:48. > :16:51.structure of 43 police forces in Britain is not well equipped to deal
:16:52. > :16:55.with it, we tried to change that and didn't succeed. You haven't got
:16:56. > :16:57.enough resources in places like greater Manchester and other forces
:16:58. > :17:02.throughout the country, they tend to be too concentrated. In the
:17:03. > :17:06.Metropolitan Police. You need them through the country to work out
:17:07. > :17:11.what's going on. I don't criticise MI5 security services in relation to
:17:12. > :17:14.this case. We need to examine why they took the decision they did. I'm
:17:15. > :17:22.sure that analysis is already going ahead. The climate in which we can
:17:23. > :17:23.keep our civil liberties most effectively is the call.
:17:24. > :17:26.More details are emerging tonight about the man who caused
:17:27. > :17:28.carnage in Manchester - and specifically of what may have
:17:29. > :17:32.Newsnight has uncovered details of both Salman Abedi's family life
:17:33. > :17:34.in Libya and of his associates in south Manchester.
:17:35. > :17:41.Our correspondents Gabriel Gatehouse and Richard Watson are both here.
:17:42. > :17:49.First of all, Gabriel what have you found out? They're Martyn strands to
:17:50. > :17:53.this, the Manchester strand which I'll talk about... In Libya we're
:17:54. > :17:58.learning interesting stuff about his background. I've got three sources
:17:59. > :18:02.who say the bomber Salman Abedi and his father, Ramadan, both joined a
:18:03. > :18:11.militia fighting Colonel Gaddafi in 2011. Salman would have been 16 at
:18:12. > :18:14.the time. I've got two sources, one is a school friend from Manchester,
:18:15. > :18:18.the other from Libya. He said because of his age is not sure how
:18:19. > :18:22.much front line fighting he did, but he knows he came before Tripoli
:18:23. > :18:28.fell, then met him in Tripoli. With the mood of elation, that's where
:18:29. > :18:32.they met. At 16 he would have disappeared from school for a period
:18:33. > :18:36.of time. If school friend said, like many other time, they went in the
:18:37. > :18:41.School holidays, in summer, they finished school, broke up, went to
:18:42. > :18:45.Libya. Bit of context. It was not unusual for British Libyans, even
:18:46. > :18:49.young British Libyans, I met some of them out there myself, to go out and
:18:50. > :18:53.fight. 16 is on the low end. What do we know about the militia with whom
:18:54. > :19:03.was fighting? One of the sources I was speaking to said he believed it
:19:04. > :19:09.was the military Council, led by a former member of the Libyan Islamic
:19:10. > :19:14.Fighting Group, LIFG, who fought in Afghanistan alongside Al-Qaeda in
:19:15. > :19:18.the 1990s and was banned under the terrorism act in the UK under 2005.
:19:19. > :19:25.Paradoxically before that some of their members had been given asylum
:19:26. > :19:29.in the UK. There were multiple suggestions from sources in
:19:30. > :19:35.Manchester and in Libya that the bomber's father, Ramadan, was on the
:19:36. > :19:38.periphery of this group. Perhaps not a full member, but someone I've
:19:39. > :19:43.spoken to has said he was associating with some of these
:19:44. > :19:46.ex-movie-macro fighters when they came back from Afghanistan and
:19:47. > :19:52.staying in Manchester. Again, there is no suggestion here that is
:19:53. > :19:59.necessary illegal, but it gives you an indication of the kind of media
:20:00. > :20:07.that Salman Abedi was growing up in. -- the kind of atmosphere. You have
:20:08. > :20:20.some information on IS recruiters in Britain. And Abedi's links. Salman
:20:21. > :20:28.Abedi lived just ten minutes from the Hostey family. He was one of the
:20:29. > :20:33.most prolific recruiters for Islamic State we've seen, Raphael Hostey.
:20:34. > :20:36.Thought to have been killed in a drone strike last year. There is no
:20:37. > :20:41.direct link but I've been speaking to researchers from the
:20:42. > :20:44.International Centre for the study of radicalisation, and what they
:20:45. > :20:52.say, they've come to their database of jihad communication is, and found
:20:53. > :20:55.an interesting link. They found that Hostey's brother in Lancashire was
:20:56. > :21:02.in contact with the Manchester bomber's brother, so there is a
:21:03. > :21:07.family link. What do you know about Abedi's operations in South
:21:08. > :21:10.Manchester? We know they prayed at Didsbury mosque. Speaking to a
:21:11. > :21:14.source of mine about that, he said he knew the Manchester bomber when
:21:15. > :21:20.he was a 12-year-old boy. His father took him to the mosque to pray.
:21:21. > :21:28.Crucially, he said his nephew, the nephew of my source, dead even as an
:21:29. > :21:33.old teenager he was developing supremacist and isolationist views,
:21:34. > :21:38.aggressive against Shia Muslims, a classic sign of extremism. He was
:21:39. > :21:45.critical of the environment he was in. He claimed he was already on the
:21:46. > :21:46.road to becoming a supremacist isolationist, extremist if you like
:21:47. > :21:50.in those terms, in those days. There were more raids and more
:21:51. > :21:52.arrests in Manchester today as the police continue
:21:53. > :21:53.their investigation John Sweeney spent the day
:21:54. > :22:02.in the city and has this report. A possible suspicious
:22:03. > :22:04.package found at a local college, not
:22:05. > :22:11.far from Old Trafford. The bomb squad have been called in,
:22:12. > :22:13.they've investigated, It's wrong to say this city
:22:14. > :22:19.is gripped with fear. The authorities believe that Abedi
:22:20. > :22:28.was a mule, not the bomb maker. Today, Greater Manchester
:22:29. > :22:32.Police sounded upbeat. I want to reassure people
:22:33. > :22:39.that the arrests that we have And initial searches
:22:40. > :22:42.of premises have revealed items that we believe are very
:22:43. > :22:45.important to the investigation. But they don't appear
:22:46. > :22:47.to have found the Overnight and through today,
:22:48. > :23:00.more raids and more arrests across Greater Manchester,
:23:01. > :23:01.bringing the total number The woman arrested
:23:02. > :23:05.yesterday has been released As well as the search
:23:06. > :23:10.for Abedi's accomplices in the bombing, there is
:23:11. > :23:13.the hunt for the people who radicalised him
:23:14. > :23:14.in Who turned an ordinary
:23:15. > :23:18.Manchester lad into a mass In 2014, twins Zahra
:23:19. > :23:27.and Salma Halane left their homes in Manchester to become
:23:28. > :23:31.Islamic State brides in Syria. Their father, who tried
:23:32. > :23:36.to rescue them from Isis, worshipped here, at the mosque
:23:37. > :23:39.in South Manchester. Newsnight can reveal that
:23:40. > :23:41.Salman Abedi also used I tried to ask the men leaving
:23:42. > :23:46.afternoon prayers whether We try to talk to the
:23:47. > :23:49.Imam of this mosque. We did talk to an
:23:50. > :23:58.official of camera. I showed him a picture
:23:59. > :24:00.of Salman Abedi. He said he didn't recognise
:24:01. > :24:02.him, and that went for all of the worshippers we spoke
:24:03. > :24:06.to, they didn't know who he was, He said he'd been to the mosque
:24:07. > :24:11.on several occasions. That does not, of course,
:24:12. > :24:14.mean that anyone at the Our source, who didn't
:24:15. > :24:23.want to be filmed, told Newsnight that it
:24:24. > :24:25.unbelievable that Abedi was the bomber and question the evidence
:24:26. > :24:35.No such doubt at another mosque in South Manchester,
:24:36. > :24:39.The whole community is shocked, the whole
:24:40. > :24:41.Muslim community is in shock about it.
:24:42. > :24:45.Earlier this year the chairman of the mosque had a row with Abedi
:24:46. > :24:53.I told him he should not be having his shoes on,
:24:54. > :24:58.So that time he said, don't treat me like a child.
:24:59. > :25:00.So I said, you're a child, because if you weren't, you
:25:01. > :25:03.wouldn't behave in this manner, you would have taken your shoes off.
:25:04. > :25:07.And have respect, you know, for the mosque.
:25:08. > :25:14.So he was angry about that. So I asked Tim, can you take your shoes
:25:15. > :25:21.off? And he did. After that, I said can you please leave now. And he
:25:22. > :25:25.went. There is a third mosque that Abedi attended, in a Didsbury.
:25:26. > :25:29.Yesterday mosque officials gave a press conference denouncing the
:25:30. > :25:33.atrocity. Today a spokesman for the mosque told Newsnight that two years
:25:34. > :25:39.ago they gave the names of three worshippers who they feared were
:25:40. > :25:43.extremists. One of them Abedi. To the police. But they took no action.
:25:44. > :25:50.The three, the spokesman said, are now under arrest. The man in the
:25:51. > :25:56.striped shirt is the Imam of the Didsbury mosque. Here he is in the
:25:57. > :26:00.Arab Spring in 2011 in military fatigues with a group of fighters
:26:01. > :26:05.preparing to take on Colonel Gaddafi's forces. Newsnight asked
:26:06. > :26:12.the Didsbury mosque whether the Imam had been a fighter. Their spokesman
:26:13. > :26:16.did not get back to us. Two's purpose in planting his bomb was to
:26:17. > :26:20.make Manchester disunited. He's failed in that, but the spotlight
:26:21. > :26:26.remains on the authorities, who may not have listened hard enough to
:26:27. > :26:27.some of the Muslim community. And some people who knew Abedi and
:26:28. > :26:38.perhaps kept it quiet. What can the government do about
:26:39. > :26:42.people seem to be Abu seem to be attracted to violent extremism but
:26:43. > :26:47.haven't broken any laws? Chris Cook explained how government policy to
:26:48. > :26:49.counter radicalisation, called prevent, is designed to work.
:26:50. > :26:51.Can we stop this from happening again?
:26:52. > :26:53.That's one of the biggest questions that will haunt
:26:54. > :26:55.government in the wake of the Manchester terror attack.
:26:56. > :26:57.Can we improve our counterterror efforts?
:26:58. > :26:58.The government's counterterror strategy,
:26:59. > :27:07.They're called Pursue, which is capturing terrorists.
:27:08. > :27:08.Protect, which is defending ourselves.
:27:09. > :27:10.Prepare, which is getting ready for attacks.
:27:11. > :27:16.And the one where all the controversy is, prevent.
:27:17. > :27:18.Stop people from becoming terrorists or supporting violent extremism.
:27:19. > :27:19.Britain's first-ever national security adviser explains
:27:20. > :27:28.As it has evolved, it's become a programme to make sure that
:27:29. > :27:30.all those working in the public services, local authorities,
:27:31. > :27:33.or in education, churches and mosques, have been trained
:27:34. > :27:34.to spot signs of radicalisation among vulnerable
:27:35. > :27:44.And then they can refer people who they think may be at risk
:27:45. > :27:54.to a programme called Channel, or people can come forward
:27:55. > :27:57.into the Channel programme themselves, and that is a separate
:27:58. > :27:59.programme, which is a tailored package of support and help to
:28:00. > :28:02.people who might be in danger of being drawn into radicalisation
:28:03. > :28:08.According to the Home Office's last annual report, there were several
:28:09. > :28:12.Around 15% of these were linked to far right extremism
:28:13. > :28:15.and around 70% linked to Islamist related extremism.
:28:16. > :28:17.But one of the problems with the Prevent programme
:28:18. > :28:19.from the outset, frankly, has been that because it comes
:28:20. > :28:21.from the government, because it's delivered through local
:28:22. > :28:24.authorities, it can look like the voice of authority.
:28:25. > :28:27.And for a number of vulnerable young people, they are
:28:28. > :28:32.The statutory guidance is mindful of this problem.
:28:33. > :28:35.The Prevent programme must not involve any covert activity
:28:36. > :28:47.But as the mayor of Greater Manchester told
:28:48. > :28:48.Newsnight yesterday, Prevent has a major
:28:49. > :28:52.Like with Northern Ireland in the 1970s and 80s,
:28:53. > :28:54.some of the policies can lead to a whole cloud of suspicion
:28:55. > :28:58.Or that's how that community can feel.
:28:59. > :29:01.And Prevent has begun to be seen in that way by some
:29:02. > :29:07.It's probably not a policy that can stand still.
:29:08. > :29:10.I do think we've got to keep refreshing the programme,
:29:11. > :29:12.because fashions change, there's more radicalisation
:29:13. > :29:16.Are we doing enough to tackle incitement
:29:17. > :29:25.And as a new generation comes forward, are we working
:29:26. > :29:27.through the role models they look to?
:29:28. > :29:29.The footballers, rappers, I don't know...
:29:30. > :29:36.The stakes in counter extremism work very high.
:29:37. > :29:39.But selling peaceful democracy to violent extremists is very tough,
:29:40. > :29:47.especially when it's the state doing the selling.
:29:48. > :29:51.Amina Lone is co director of the Social Action and
:29:52. > :29:53.Research Foundation, a think tank that works with marginalised
:29:54. > :29:55.groups, and a Labour Councillor in Manchester.
:29:56. > :30:00.Cerie Bullivant is a spokesperson for Cage, an advocacy organisation
:30:01. > :30:03.which works to 'empower communities impacted by the War on Terror'
:30:04. > :30:06.and which has been one of the most outspoken opponents of the Prevent
:30:07. > :30:21.Amina, you're from Manchester. I wonder what people are asking you
:30:22. > :30:26.about in Manchester? How this could have happened? Firstly I passed my
:30:27. > :30:31.deepest condolences to the families who suffered on Monday. People are
:30:32. > :30:34.in shock, they are scared across the board, people are scared about
:30:35. > :30:41.repercussions but also about reactions as well. There is a fear
:30:42. > :30:46.that we may have more tax. What is the right approach going forward,
:30:47. > :30:51.what do we do? These are innocent children, not people who were on the
:30:52. > :30:59.front line. They were at a pop concert, and make age of innocence,
:31:00. > :31:03.if you target young children...? The area that you working involves
:31:04. > :31:09.Prevent, do you think it works? I think it does work. Like any
:31:10. > :31:12.government policy it has its flaws and implementation is tricky but it
:31:13. > :31:17.has been continuously looked at and we are doing phenomenal work in
:31:18. > :31:23.Manchester, Birmingham and the West Midlands. Do you think, in your
:31:24. > :31:29.experience, people trust Prevent? Overwhelmingly I think people do who
:31:30. > :31:35.are ordinary Muslims. I think there is a propaganda machine that is very
:31:36. > :31:38.vocal who are very anti-Prevent for different reasons and that gets a
:31:39. > :31:42.lot of traction and that is problematic because when I talk
:31:43. > :31:48.about the amenity groups getting funding to visit mosques, to go to
:31:49. > :31:55.temples and churches, how can that be seen... To talk about cohesion,
:31:56. > :31:59.that is positive. Prevent is about safeguarding and preventing people
:32:00. > :32:05.at risk of radicalisation. How can that be a negative thing? Cerie, if
:32:06. > :32:08.you knew someone come if you had evidence that somebody was being
:32:09. > :32:13.radicalised, would you go to Prevent? I don't think Prevent is
:32:14. > :32:20.the right vehicle for doing it. So you wouldn't do that? Just a Biglia,
:32:21. > :32:23.if you had evidence that a young person was in danger of
:32:24. > :32:28.radicalisation and pursuing that route, you wouldn't go to Prevent?
:32:29. > :32:35.What we must do is look at opening up the conversation and working on
:32:36. > :32:40.community-based approaches to de-radicalised these people and stop
:32:41. > :32:43.them getting into this. So if you knew a young person, a teenager
:32:44. > :32:48.perhaps who was being radicalised and was in danger of going abroad,
:32:49. > :32:53.or doing something here, to whom would you report them? If they were
:32:54. > :32:58.going to do a criminal act, you have to go to the police. But if they
:32:59. > :33:01.were in danger of being radicalised? If there was an issue with ideas
:33:02. > :33:07.like this, they need to be taken into the community and dealt with.
:33:08. > :33:12.But I'm not clear what you mean by being taken into the community. The
:33:13. > :33:16.elders of the community, by the Imam, by the people who have a solid
:33:17. > :33:25.and trusted understanding of the religion. I've got an issue with
:33:26. > :33:29.that because it is the community who are implementing it, it is a
:33:30. > :33:33.community group, 460 mosques work with Prevent. You are suggesting
:33:34. > :33:38.that the community is not part of York amenity, that they Amina
:33:39. > :33:43.community is not part of York amenity and you feel alien dated
:33:44. > :33:48.from it. I'm not saying that, Amina and I are part of the same community
:33:49. > :33:53.and we are part of the British community which is in mourning and
:33:54. > :33:57.shock at the moment. We're not at different ends the spectrum here.
:33:58. > :34:04.But you don't believe in Prevent? Prevent is based on pseudoscience
:34:05. > :34:14.and even the people who created it say that it is not fit for purpose,
:34:15. > :34:19.the pseudoscience. I wonder, is your response, because if Cerie is active
:34:20. > :34:24.in the community and suggesting to vulnerable people that Prevent
:34:25. > :34:27.doesn't work? I think there is an issue, about a narrative and the
:34:28. > :34:33.agenda being framed but a responsibility. Prevent is trying to
:34:34. > :34:37.safeguard young people at risk of being radicalised by people in ices
:34:38. > :34:40.who want young people to blow themselves up in arenas like they
:34:41. > :34:45.did on Monday, that's what we're fighting and it is a disservice to
:34:46. > :34:52.say Prevent isn't working. Is there an issue of denial among some
:34:53. > :34:58.Muslims? Absolutely. The UN special reporter said that Prevent puts us
:34:59. > :35:03.at risk of stigmatisation and disenfranchisement. Can I just say,
:35:04. > :35:09.Prevent hasn't stopped 150 vulnerable teenagers going to fight
:35:10. > :35:13.jihad. Isn't that a great thing? It is a great thing that people are not
:35:14. > :35:21.going but that could be applied under the old systems we had. That
:35:22. > :35:26.could be done under safeguards. I think there is an issue of denial in
:35:27. > :35:31.the community and it is understandable because people feel
:35:32. > :35:34.under threat. Most Muslims come up to 3 million in this country,
:35:35. > :35:38.ordinary Muslims, get on with their life, they live, they work and they
:35:39. > :35:42.play but people are scared of speaking out because they think they
:35:43. > :35:45.are going to be vilified, especially women art vilified for speaking out
:35:46. > :35:50.about the problems, and there are significant issues. What you're
:35:51. > :35:53.suggesting for women is that women who speak out, people who have been
:35:54. > :35:58.known to speak out our vilified by people like you. We don't vilify
:35:59. > :36:03.anybody and we never have. We speak in the community and things that
:36:04. > :36:10.have occurred. I have been a victim, accused of pre-crime, the realm that
:36:11. > :36:16.Prevent deals in, leading to two years of my life under house arrest,
:36:17. > :36:21.with no evidence being shown. Do you think that imams should absolutely,
:36:22. > :36:26.categorically be charged with de-radicalisation? All of our Imam
:36:27. > :36:32.and I think Amina would agree with me, all of our Imam 's around the
:36:33. > :36:37.country speak out against violence... I would disagree, I
:36:38. > :36:40.don't think it is all of them. There is an issue with mosques and
:36:41. > :36:45.language, people don't necessarily speaking this, there is an issue
:36:46. > :36:49.with space not being provided for women and I think it is fair to say
:36:50. > :36:53.that we have some problems and that we must work together because these
:36:54. > :36:56.people are our enemy. We were talking during a film about the
:36:57. > :37:01.possibility that Prevent should be looked at again and so forth. Would
:37:02. > :37:06.you like to see an independent ombudsman looking at the work of
:37:07. > :37:10.Prevent and critiquing it? There's no harm in having the independent
:37:11. > :37:13.review, I think we should have more transparency but I think we should
:37:14. > :37:18.showcase the positive work that is done. It has done phenomenal work
:37:19. > :37:22.around the country and we have a responsibility, myself and the other
:37:23. > :37:27.practitioners, Muslim and non-Muslim, this is about people who
:37:28. > :37:31.hate us and our way of life and we must stand up and say that you don't
:37:32. > :37:36.represent us. You talked about the community sorting this. What is your
:37:37. > :37:42.specific proposal if it isn't Prevent, what is the specific thing
:37:43. > :37:47.you should do? Prevent is based on pseudoscience. You have said that,
:37:48. > :37:54.what should be done? We must stop clogging up the system with over
:37:55. > :38:05.7500 referrals a year, most of which are duds. This man was referred to
:38:06. > :38:10.the police over five times and was missed, not picked up, because so
:38:11. > :38:15.many people are being referred. You have given 500,000 public servants a
:38:16. > :38:17.hammer and all they can see is nails. I must both there. Thank you
:38:18. > :38:24.for joining us. The front pages, the Daily
:38:25. > :38:29.Telegraph, Corbyn, wars to blame for terror. The Sun newspaper, inside
:38:30. > :38:37.the bomb factory, their front page. , planning for a year. Tory lead cut
:38:38. > :38:40.to five points as Corbyn closes in on Theresa May.
:38:41. > :38:44.Today, across Britain, a minute's silence was observed
:38:45. > :38:47.to honour those who lost their lives or were injured in Monday's attack.
:38:48. > :39:49.Thank you. APPLAUSE
:39:50. > :39:56.It has been the hottest day of the year so far, 28 degrees on Thursday
:39:57. > :39:57.and we will probe the