:00:00. > :00:00.The Tories relaunch their campaign, this time with Amber Rudd,
:00:07. > :00:19.The question in this election is whether we want a country for the
:00:20. > :00:24.many, or just the few. I just have to take on some of Jeremy Corbyn's
:00:25. > :00:30.fantasy economics. I mean come on he has this money tree wish list in his
:00:31. > :00:35.manifesto. Meanwhile, as one pollster suggests there will be a
:00:36. > :00:39.hung parliament, Labour refuses to tell us whether they will rule out a
:00:40. > :00:43.coalition with the SNP. I'm not dealing with hypothetical is, I'm
:00:44. > :00:45.sorry. Why not? It is a reasonable question. We are fighting this to
:00:46. > :00:49.win. We're going to cancel a Paris
:00:50. > :00:57.climate agreement. No decision yet, but it
:00:58. > :00:59.looks like he will honour The first of our new series
:01:00. > :01:03.of political bedtime stories. There was a prince called David, and
:01:04. > :01:16.he ruled well. Well, we had the nearest thing
:01:17. > :01:20.to a full-spectrum TV election Seven politicians, some of them
:01:21. > :01:24.candidates for Prime Minister, lined up in Cambridge,
:01:25. > :01:25.with the conspicuous absence of the actual
:01:26. > :01:30.Prime Minister, Theresa May. She was replaced by Amber Rudd,
:01:31. > :01:32.the Home Secretary, who did an effective job at looking Prime
:01:33. > :01:35.Ministerial. The debate had some sparky
:01:36. > :01:38.moments, and some recurrent Everybody on stage
:01:39. > :01:55.had their highlights, Nick, how did it go? Well, obviously
:01:56. > :02:00.Jeremy Corbyn's late decision to turn up at this debate put the
:02:01. > :02:04.spotlight on Theresa May, who was a notable absentee. And there were
:02:05. > :02:07.plenty of jokes about how the Prime Minister called this election the
:02:08. > :02:11.most important in her lifetime and she could not be bothered to turn
:02:12. > :02:15.up. To which the Conservative Party says, thank you very much to those
:02:16. > :02:20.six parties, you are illustrating one of our key themes about the
:02:21. > :02:24.selection, which is that if Jeremy Corbyn emerges as the leader of the
:02:25. > :02:28.largest party on June nine, the UK will be governed by a coalition of
:02:29. > :02:32.chaos. What would I say about the overall verdict? There was no clear
:02:33. > :02:36.winner and there was no clear loser. Jeremy Corbyn did as he did in the
:02:37. > :02:41.Channel 4 debate on Sunday, he spoke from the heart on matters dear to
:02:42. > :02:48.him, food banks for example. Amber Rudd did what she did last year in
:02:49. > :02:50.the referendum debate, had some pre-packaged sound bites, one on the
:02:51. > :02:53.Monopoly board that didn't quite work. But she stood up well against
:02:54. > :02:58.the six other parties and delivered her core message, which was the
:02:59. > :03:01.choice, who do you want to negotiate Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa
:03:02. > :03:07.May? A bit of a question mark, because Theresa May wasn't here.
:03:08. > :03:10.Before this debate, YouGov carried out another poll, and it makes
:03:11. > :03:14.pretty interesting reading to night. That's right. A YouGov poll in The
:03:15. > :03:22.Times tomorrow suggests the Conservative lead is now down to
:03:23. > :03:26.three points, 42 the Conservative, 39 to Labour. There is a dramatic
:03:27. > :03:30.tightening of the polls as far as YouGov is concerned. But that is not
:03:31. > :03:34.being borne out in other polls. The ICM poll in the Guardian yesterday
:03:35. > :03:38.gave the Conservatives a 12 point lead. I spoke to one senior Labour
:03:39. > :03:44.source who said to me, we are clear that there is a pattern that the
:03:45. > :03:46.polls are tightening. But as there being a dramatic tightening, well,
:03:47. > :03:53.they say they're going to be really cautious. Thanks, Nick. We will be
:03:54. > :03:54.talking about the polls and what's driving them a little later in the
:03:55. > :03:55.programme. Well, there were strong moments
:03:56. > :03:57.for everybody on stage, David Grossman was watching
:03:58. > :04:11.as the argument progressed. Not since Captain Mannering's wife
:04:12. > :04:16.has a character so dominated a scene while not appearing. Jeremy Corbyn.
:04:17. > :04:22.There were quite a party leaders. One Westminster party leader, one
:04:23. > :04:28.co-leader and a stunt double -- that work for party leaders. The first
:04:29. > :04:32.question of the night, who is missing? Theresa May. The reason any
:04:33. > :04:36.leading lady sends a stunt double is so she doesn't get damaged if things
:04:37. > :04:42.go wrong. So with this, Amber Rudd's tactic was clear. Ignore the others,
:04:43. > :04:46.but slammed Jeremy Corbyn hard at every opportunity. Jeremy, I know
:04:47. > :04:51.there is no extra payment you don't want to add to, no tax you don't
:04:52. > :04:54.want to rise. But the fact is we have to concentrate our resources on
:04:55. > :04:58.the people who need it most and we have to stop thinking, as you do,
:04:59. > :05:02.that there is a magic money tree. You have to be accountable for the
:05:03. > :05:07.money you want to spend. Have you been to a food bank? Have you seen
:05:08. > :05:12.people sleeping around our stations? Jeremy Corbyn managed quite a few
:05:13. > :05:16.slams back. We cannot go on giving money away to the very rich. This
:05:17. > :05:21.Government is proposing another ?60 billion in tax giveaways in the next
:05:22. > :05:26.five years. Instead I say turn it round and invest in the future of
:05:27. > :05:29.all the while people. With so many participants, the debate often
:05:30. > :05:34.descended into chaos -- of all of our people. Particularly when they
:05:35. > :05:41.were arguing about chaos. This is chaotic, chaotic. As the Government,
:05:42. > :05:44.the Conservatives were doing the most defending. Judge us on our
:05:45. > :05:51.record... LAUGHTER
:05:52. > :05:56.We have cut the deficit. It wasn't the past that worried the Lib Dems
:05:57. > :06:00.so much as the future. We have a general election in eight days,
:06:01. > :06:03.Theresa May assuming a colossal landslide, that's why she thinks she
:06:04. > :06:06.can ignore people and not bother turning up tonight. She is telling
:06:07. > :06:12.people, we will take your house of you and we will allow you to know
:06:13. > :06:15.how much you get to keep after your majority. If tonight you resolve to
:06:16. > :06:19.vote Conservative on the 8th of June, you were resolving to give
:06:20. > :06:24.Theresa May emission to do what you like. Remove university tuition
:06:25. > :06:28.fees. Mike there are other parties to be judged on their record. You
:06:29. > :06:37.have a Labour government in Wales that is charging students to go to
:06:38. > :06:41.university. This is a UK Government... Labour is different in
:06:42. > :06:48.the UK than in Wales? It's going to be a UK policy. It is unbelievably
:06:49. > :06:54.cruel to using lives as bargaining chips. The Greens attack the
:06:55. > :06:58.Government and the UK on Brexit. I want to make the case for free
:06:59. > :07:02.movement, it has been the most wonderful gift, the ability to
:07:03. > :07:06.travel and work and live and love in 27 other member states, and for them
:07:07. > :07:10.to come here. I am sorry that the Labour Party now doesn't support
:07:11. > :07:16.that. Frankly. Mike when the subject turned to terrorism, the Ukip leader
:07:17. > :07:24.called for internment of suspect if necessary. 23,000 jihadis out there
:07:25. > :07:29.want to do us harm. Lets not give our freedom and our liberty awaits.
:07:30. > :07:33.British rights over the rights of jihadis. The question was about
:07:34. > :07:38.terrorism and extremism, and Ukip went straight for more slums.
:07:39. > :07:44.APPLAUSE -- went straight for Muslims. It
:07:45. > :07:49.wasn't a Muslim that shot Jo Cox. At the end of the 90 minutes, two
:07:50. > :07:53.questions hung in the. Was Theresa May harmed or helped by not being
:07:54. > :07:55.there, and was a single voter's mind changed by any of it's David
:07:56. > :07:57.Grossman. Well, as is traditional with these
:07:58. > :08:00.things, the debate tonight was followed by rounds of frantic PR
:08:01. > :08:02.from all sides afterwards It's all wrapped up now, but just
:08:03. > :08:07.before we came on air I caught up with the Brexit Secretary,
:08:08. > :08:08.David Davis. First, I spoke to Labour's Shadow
:08:09. > :08:19.Foreign Secretary, Emily Thornberry. I started by asking her whether
:08:20. > :08:21.Jeremy Corbyn taking part in the debate plays into those Tory
:08:22. > :08:29.warnings of a coalition of chaos. Well, I think that's probably the
:08:30. > :08:33.desperate attempt of Conservative Party Central office to try and spin
:08:34. > :08:39.this. But, you know what, I think if I was Amber Rudd I would be going
:08:40. > :08:43.back to Theresa May and saying, you really on me. I'm in front of all of
:08:44. > :08:47.those people and I say, judge us on our record, and people laughed. I
:08:48. > :08:50.had to be that a front that up, it should have been you, you are the
:08:51. > :08:54.Prime Minister, you are supposed to be the one who is strong and stable
:08:55. > :08:58.and able to negotiate Brexit, and yet you're not even prepared to
:08:59. > :09:07.debate with pupils to what I want to push a little harder on the
:09:08. > :09:09.coalition of chaos line. -- debate with people. Many people thought it
:09:10. > :09:13.was rather effective, and the polls, which have had a surge for Labour,
:09:14. > :09:16.the polls perhaps suggest a hung parliament is more likely than we
:09:17. > :09:21.have bought. That means there could be a coalition led by the Labour
:09:22. > :09:25.Party. You know what I'm going to say, Evan, you know, we don't
:09:26. > :09:29.believe the polls, we don't pay attention to polls. What we're doing
:09:30. > :09:32.is we are out there to win it. We do sense on the ground that things are
:09:33. > :09:37.beginning to change and that they want to listen to us and that they
:09:38. > :09:40.do see there is an alternative, and an alternative which is a potential
:09:41. > :09:44.Government that has the vision for Britain and is about hope and is
:09:45. > :09:54.about an alternative. It does not have to be that way, and the power
:09:55. > :09:57.is in the hands of the people, they can decide that no, despite the fact
:09:58. > :10:00.that you guys in the media and Evra Ross Wardle been saying, Theresa May
:10:01. > :10:03.is going to walk it, it is just a question of how big a majority it
:10:04. > :10:05.will be -- in the media and everywhere else. It is up to the
:10:06. > :10:08.media to decide, and the people are beginning to listen to us and
:10:09. > :10:13.realising that we are a serious alternative. It does not have to be
:10:14. > :10:18.like this. Point made. You can just clarify for the hypothetical
:10:19. > :10:22.situation in which it is a hung parliament, that Labour will not
:10:23. > :10:26.have a collision agreement with the Scottish National Party, correct? We
:10:27. > :10:29.can take that as read, that will not happen, and you can be clear about
:10:30. > :10:34.that now and it would be a breach of the promised if there is one of two
:10:35. > :10:40.the election? I'm not dealing with hypothetical is with you, I'm sorry.
:10:41. > :10:45.Why not? It's a perfectly reasonable question. Because we're fighting to
:10:46. > :10:48.win! We want to have a majority in the House of Commons and we want to
:10:49. > :10:52.be the next government and we are putting for and our alternative to
:10:53. > :10:55.the British people and it's for them to decide which government they
:10:56. > :10:58.want. One thing is for sure, it's either going to be a Labour
:10:59. > :11:02.government or a Conservative government, and that's how it is.
:11:03. > :11:07.It's very interesting that you won't rule out a collision with the SNP,
:11:08. > :11:14.and anybody listening to you will say, if we don't agree with Emily
:11:15. > :11:17.Thornbury that it may be a hung parliament, then we'd be right to
:11:18. > :11:20.think they will do a deal with the SNP. We have put our faith in the
:11:21. > :11:24.British people and in our ability to be able to put forward our arguments
:11:25. > :11:29.and alternative vision. The fact is, you know, this is the biggest star
:11:30. > :11:32.that we have in our show, which is a series of ideas and an alternative
:11:33. > :11:38.vision for Britain. Let me just take a couple of points in there. If you
:11:39. > :11:43.want to wave the manifesto... The manifesto says, it is very carefully
:11:44. > :11:49.costed. It's not that funny! It says it's carefully costed. Sorry, I'm
:11:50. > :11:54.laughing because I know you're going to start asking by numbers. Believe
:11:55. > :11:59.me, I'm not trying to test you on your numbers, I'm not. However,
:12:00. > :12:03.there are some policy areas, policy areas where it is simply not costed.
:12:04. > :12:07.Our benefits going to be operated or not? Because working age benefits,
:12:08. > :12:12.on Monday Jeremy Corbyn said they would be but there is no cost in
:12:13. > :12:16.there for that, that is not a costed manifesto, is it? If we have a great
:12:17. > :12:25.honour of taking over as the next government, we will need to go into
:12:26. > :12:27.the Department of and look at the chaos that is currently Universal
:12:28. > :12:30.Credit, and we need to look again at how well it is working, how that it
:12:31. > :12:33.is, and how the cuts will be effecting real people's likes. We
:12:34. > :12:37.have set aside ?2 billion per year in order to be able to look again at
:12:38. > :12:41.Universal Credit and sorted out and make sure it is there. There is a
:12:42. > :12:46.series of benefits that we will. The cuts off, I can reel them off if you
:12:47. > :12:50.want. It starts with the bedroom tax and how unfair that is. It's just
:12:51. > :12:55.the operating of benefits. Some of your plans are carefully costed and
:12:56. > :12:59.they are there. -- the operating of benefits. This is not costed and it
:13:00. > :13:02.is quite expensive. This is when you have basically changed on the hoof,
:13:03. > :13:07.you have you turned on your manifesto, it is not in there.
:13:08. > :13:11.Jeremy Corbyn says it is on the TV. That is different to your manifesto.
:13:12. > :13:16.The reason we put into the manifesto by the focus on Universal Credit is
:13:17. > :13:19.because this is another vehicle that people will be getting their
:13:20. > :13:23.benefits, we want to make sure it is done fairly and properly. Emily
:13:24. > :13:32.Thornbury, we are out of time, thank for joining us.
:13:33. > :13:34.Also doing his duty at the Spin Room tonight
:13:35. > :13:36.was the Brexit Secretary, David Davis.
:13:37. > :13:43.I asked him how he felt Amber Rudd did this evening standing in for her
:13:44. > :13:47.leader. I think she did astonishingly well, she was
:13:48. > :13:50.straightforward, calm, sober, answered questions directly. It was
:13:51. > :13:55.a metaphorical comparison with the coalition of against her, noise and
:13:56. > :14:02.the argument, she was the voice of calm in the middle of it, she did
:14:03. > :14:05.very well indeed. Theresa May did well not to go because she would not
:14:06. > :14:09.have done as well as Amber Rudd. Well, I don't think that is true,
:14:10. > :14:12.bear in mind a couple of things: she appeared on the same programme as
:14:13. > :14:17.Jeremy Corbyn on Monday, doing the same again Friday, she has done 5500
:14:18. > :14:22.miles of touring around the country, answering loads of questions from
:14:23. > :14:25.public and journalists. Do you think she watched tonight, do you know if
:14:26. > :14:30.she watched it? Honestly, I don't know.
:14:31. > :14:36.Bearing in mind she has got to run the country at the same time, she
:14:37. > :14:39.has homework to do. Do you think she watched the debate? I don't know,
:14:40. > :14:44.but I wouldn't necessarily assume so. It is embarrassing if you are
:14:45. > :14:48.the leader of the party, the Prime Minister, and somebody stands in for
:14:49. > :14:52.you, and to some extent, shows you up, by answering the questions so
:14:53. > :14:56.nimbly, which is not characteristic of Theresa May in this campaign. I
:14:57. > :15:01.don't think that shows her up, one of the real underestimated
:15:02. > :15:04.characteristics, of great leaders, is they have good people around
:15:05. > :15:10.them, good people around her, Amber Rudd is one of the stars, that is a
:15:11. > :15:14.very good thing. Amber was able to be straightforward because we have a
:15:15. > :15:20.strong argument, a strong case, she made it well. One of the things she
:15:21. > :15:26.said related to your department. She said, when it comes to Brexit, you
:15:27. > :15:30.have a plan. Yes, we do. I thought that you had a set of objectives,
:15:31. > :15:35.but having objectives is not the same as having a plan. I plan is
:15:36. > :15:41.what you do when they do not like your objectives! Well, we have both,
:15:42. > :15:48.the manifesto, has a page and a half, what it refers to is well over
:15:49. > :15:53.100 pages. Two White Papers, major speech, that long letter. Behind all
:15:54. > :15:57.of that, those are the aims, the idea of a agreement, customs
:15:58. > :16:01.agreement, idea of continuing counterterrorism cooperation, all
:16:02. > :16:05.those things are there but underpinning that, there is also
:16:06. > :16:11.chairing a meeting today, as I was, first steps of the plan, where we
:16:12. > :16:15.hope we win the election and we start, 11 days later, into the
:16:16. > :16:20.negotiations. Great, maybe, as it is the Brexit election by your own
:16:21. > :16:24.admission, maybe you can share with us some aspects of the plan, maybe
:16:25. > :16:31.you can tell us what your immigration policy will be, once we
:16:32. > :16:36.leave. First thing we have said is that we will bring control back to
:16:37. > :16:42.Britain. That is not a policy, it is a phrase, David...! Wait a minute,
:16:43. > :16:46.let me get to the point, Evan, people voted for control the borders
:16:47. > :16:49.and money and their own laws in the referendum, all of those matter, in
:16:50. > :16:53.the control of borders, we are talking about bringing control back
:16:54. > :16:56.to Britain's Parliament can decide on eventually what the immigration
:16:57. > :17:00.policy is and we have said clearly that the aim is to bring it down to
:17:01. > :17:09.sustainable levels. That is not a policy, with respect, that is not a
:17:10. > :17:14.policy. A plan... Too often the commentators want to go into the
:17:15. > :17:20.weeds and the details... LAUGHTER What? The outcome will be that. You
:17:21. > :17:24.have told us no deal is better than a bad deal, but you have not told us
:17:25. > :17:28.how bad a deal has to be... I just want to ask you, would you walk
:17:29. > :17:35.away, literally say, no deal, if, for example, the European court of
:17:36. > :17:38.justice had to be involved in the European aviation agreement that we
:17:39. > :17:44.sign, or something like that. No deal is better than a deal that has
:17:45. > :17:50.anything...? Many components of a bad deal, we will not draw the lines
:17:51. > :17:53.for you so that our negotiations partners on the other side nowhere
:17:54. > :17:57.to push it too, but I will say that we will not have the European court
:17:58. > :18:01.of justice ruling on issues inside Britain. This is not a plan, it is a
:18:02. > :18:13.lot of things that you say, that you are going to do. Set of demands that
:18:14. > :18:19.are unpleasant and not compatible, is that what you are talking about?
:18:20. > :18:22.Why would... Not at all, why would they be presented with incompatible
:18:23. > :18:26.and unpleasant things, we are looking for the best deal possible,
:18:27. > :18:29.a free-trade agreement, customs agreement, an agreement on
:18:30. > :18:35.counterterrorism and security, those are not unpalatable things, and in
:18:36. > :18:37.addition, will seek to open up free-trade agreements with the rest
:18:38. > :18:42.of the world, those are all very good things, not very bad things.
:18:43. > :18:48.The last one, another poll this evening, YouGov poll, 3% difference
:18:49. > :18:53.between the Tories and Labour. What are you reading into this, into this
:18:54. > :19:00.surge, too much Theresa May and not enough Amber Rudd on the campaign?
:19:01. > :19:03.You have been a television commentator, radio commentator, for
:19:04. > :19:07.a long time, you are very numerous, above all people, you should know
:19:08. > :19:12.how untrustworthy pulsar. What it reminds people is that if you do not
:19:13. > :19:15.have Theresa May going to that negotiation, 11 days after the
:19:16. > :19:18.election, it will be Jeremy Corbyn. -- very numerate. The people
:19:19. > :19:20.watching your programme have got to make a decision, which do they want?
:19:21. > :19:29.I know which, it is clear to me. Well, this has not been the election
:19:30. > :19:32.the Tories thought it would be An easy cruise to a much enhanced
:19:33. > :19:36.majority, all based on the broad the party seems to be
:19:37. > :19:42.in the midst of a wobble. Although still in the lead
:19:43. > :19:45.according to the polls, it's hard to think of an election
:19:46. > :19:47.campaign that has seen a more
:19:48. > :19:48.dramatic turn against But, the Conservatives
:19:49. > :19:57.are a party keen to get a grip, And campaign chief Lynton Crosby has
:19:58. > :20:06.been given an enhanced role for the final week, Newsnight has learned.
:20:07. > :20:15.Nick Watt looks at what is next for Theresa May.
:20:16. > :20:18.VOICEOVER: Just a few short weeks ago,
:20:19. > :20:20.Theresa May was banking on a Blue
:20:21. > :20:22.surge sweeping her back into Downing Street
:20:23. > :20:26.It turns out that a few weeks is now an eternity in British politics.
:20:27. > :20:29.With just eight days to go, our strong and stable
:20:30. > :20:30.Prime Minister is stumbling towards the finishing line.
:20:31. > :20:33.Elections rarely work out as they're meant to work out.
:20:34. > :20:36.It looked like this was going to be a very boring campaign,
:20:37. > :20:40.I think, in lots of ways, what the Conservatives have
:20:41. > :20:43.Because actually I think they're looking at this
:20:44. > :20:45.huge problem of care, which is growing because -
:20:46. > :20:47.luckily, I'm growing older myself - we're all living longer,
:20:48. > :20:50.and it's a problem that has to be addressed sometime.
:20:51. > :20:53.But to do that kind of in the middle of an election campaign isn't
:20:54. > :20:57.And that's made it a much more interesting campaign.
:20:58. > :20:59.The new pressure on the Prime Minister followed an estimate
:21:00. > :21:02.by the pollsters YouGov that Theresa May could lose 20 seats.
:21:03. > :21:04.Tory high command is disdainful of the findings.
:21:05. > :21:06.They believe the Prime Minister is still on course for a decisive
:21:07. > :21:09.victory on the grounds that Jeremy Corbyn is not seen
:21:10. > :21:12.For all of the bullish talk amongst senior Tories,
:21:13. > :21:14.Cabinet Ministers acknowledge that their campaign did
:21:15. > :21:16.experience a wobble last week after Theresa May's U-turn
:21:17. > :21:28.But rare nerves in the May camp led to one major change,
:21:29. > :21:30.Sir Lynton Crosby, who masterminded David Cameron's victory in 2015,
:21:31. > :21:35.has taken sole command of the Tory election campaign.
:21:36. > :21:37.Everybody bar the Prime Minister now answers to him.
:21:38. > :21:39.Under Lynton Crosby's leadership, there has been a renewed focus
:21:40. > :21:41.on the original issue the Prime Minister said
:21:42. > :21:52.who is best placed to deliver Brexit?
:21:53. > :21:54.David Cameron's former Director of Communications believes
:21:55. > :22:05.They're willing to check to go over the top with him
:22:06. > :22:09.and go in the direction that he sets.
:22:10. > :22:21.lots of people just wanted to follow what he said
:22:22. > :22:25.and were prepared to listen to him and hear what he had to say.
:22:26. > :22:27.But he was also very clear in 2015 - I'm in charge.
:22:28. > :22:30.The dominant role now played by Lynton Crosby shows how
:22:31. > :22:32.the architect of the original social care policy, the Prime Minister's
:22:33. > :22:35.Joint Chief of Staff, Nick Timothy, has been damaged by the U-turn.
:22:36. > :22:37.One minister told Newsnight that after the election,
:22:38. > :22:39.there will be calls to curb the unconstitutional
:22:40. > :22:45.dominance of Timothy and his colleague Fiona Hill.
:22:46. > :22:47.Ministers say the Prime Minister's authority has taken a knock.
:22:48. > :22:55.but only if she secures a decisive victory.
:22:56. > :22:58.is a parliamentary majority of at least 50.
:22:59. > :23:03.about why the Prime Minister inflicted this election
:23:04. > :23:10.Welcome to the BBC Election Debate 2017.
:23:11. > :23:11.Theresa May's less-than-perfect campaign was forced
:23:12. > :23:19.onto the defensive again tonight over the television Leaders' Debate.
:23:20. > :23:21.We invited the leaders of seven parties to take part.
:23:22. > :27:30.Some are here, others chose to send senior representatives.
:27:31. > :27:35.The election battle in Scotland is heating up. Signs are that Nicola
:27:36. > :27:39.Sturgeon's party remain somewhere ahead, but she has not had it all
:27:40. > :27:42.her own way in this campaign, accurately softening her demand for
:27:43. > :27:48.an independence referendum as seen last year. How is it going down,
:27:49. > :27:49.Kirsty has been on the road with Nicola Sturgeon today, as she
:27:50. > :28:01.campaigns for votes in Fife. The morning after the SNP manifesto
:28:02. > :28:04.launch. If I was to tell you that instead of going on this cruise, you
:28:05. > :28:09.can see Nicola Sturgeon, would you get off the boat? Would you be quite
:28:10. > :28:14.keen to see her? Probably wouldn't seek her out, but if she was here to
:28:15. > :28:20.chat, I would say hello. Apparently she is also coming here for a bite
:28:21. > :28:26.to eat. Important visitor in the fish bar today? Yes, I believe so.
:28:27. > :28:30.Any special recipe? Obviously, a traditional haddock and chips is the
:28:31. > :28:38.most popular, award-winning. One mile away, still more than 30
:28:39. > :28:45.fishing boats. This fisherman voted to leave the EU, but he is for the
:28:46. > :28:49.SNP. Tell me, what you think of Nicola Sturgeon? She is good, aye,
:28:50. > :28:56.puts herself across well, talks to the point. Back in town, Nicola
:28:57. > :29:01.Sturgeon is doing what she and Theresa May say they like doing
:29:02. > :29:05.best, campaigning. The thing with the general election campaign, even
:29:06. > :29:08.if you are First Minister, any photo opportunity is better than no photo
:29:09. > :29:17.opportunity especially when they are young and cannot speak back!
:29:18. > :29:26.One resident has concerns about education. What are her policies?
:29:27. > :29:33.Generally, they're not bad on the whole, but education... And there
:29:34. > :29:36.have been repeated questions during this campaign about what the SNP
:29:37. > :29:40.have done with their decade in government. I sat down with the
:29:41. > :29:49.First Minister. Two years ago you said you wanted to be judged on your
:29:50. > :29:54.education record. Dropping our position in Scotland since 2006 on
:29:55. > :30:01.several key indicators, tenth to 19th position internationally on
:30:02. > :30:05.science, 11th to 23rd on reading, Scotland overall is average. For a
:30:06. > :30:09.country that once prided itself on its literacy and numeracy, that is
:30:10. > :30:14.pretty disastrous. That's why I've said we've got improvements to make.
:30:15. > :30:18.That study is two years old. But you have been in power for ten years!
:30:19. > :30:21.I'm being frank both about where we have made good progress in
:30:22. > :30:27.education, I'm not going to sit here and except that they're not areas
:30:28. > :30:31.where progress been made. I can point you to lots of things were
:30:32. > :30:34.over the 10-year period we are seeing improvements. I can cite the
:30:35. > :30:37.fact that there are fewer young people from our deprived communities
:30:38. > :30:42.leaving school with no call of occasions, that number has halved
:30:43. > :30:46.since we took office. We have regular numbers of young people
:30:47. > :30:51.going into education the attainment gap is starting to narrow. In the
:30:52. > :30:55.election manifesto, the rich and independents just once and there was
:30:56. > :30:59.absolutely no reference to the referendum. -- you mentioned
:31:00. > :31:03.independence just once. This is not a vote winner. This is one of the
:31:04. > :31:07.strange things about Scottish politics just now. My political
:31:08. > :31:10.opponents say that I talk about nothing but independence. The fact
:31:11. > :31:14.of the matter is, my position on giving people a choice at the end of
:31:15. > :31:18.the Brexit process is clear. But I'm also fighting a Westminster election
:31:19. > :31:25.where I think it's also really important to talk about what SNP MPs
:31:26. > :31:27.can do to stand against further Tory cuts and to strengthen Scotland's
:31:28. > :31:31.hand in the Brexit negotiations. If the Tories take target seats, say
:31:32. > :31:34.ten of the target seats, you may even lose your deputy leader if that
:31:35. > :31:40.happens, would you then except that this has been a high watermark for
:31:41. > :31:44.independence? Look, I hear these things all the time. We had an
:31:45. > :31:48.exceptional election result in 2015. I hope we can repeat that we are
:31:49. > :31:52.working hard to do that. But you know this well. Before that election
:31:53. > :31:57.result, the most MPs the SNP had ever had in our entire history was
:31:58. > :32:02.11. We had six in the parliament before we got 56. I get people
:32:03. > :32:11.saying to me now, if you only get 50, 45, 40, that somehow a disaster,
:32:12. > :32:14.it's a ridiculous way of looking at things. In The Times today, there is
:32:15. > :32:18.a poll which suggests a hung parliament. In that scenario, would
:32:19. > :32:23.you do a deal with Theresa May? No. I wouldn't put a Conservative Prime
:32:24. > :32:28.Minister into office. Even if she said, Nicholas Durden, I'm going to
:32:29. > :32:32.give you top billing next to me at the Brexit negotiations -- Nicola
:32:33. > :32:37.Sturgeon. In my lifetime, Tory governments have been damaging for
:32:38. > :32:40.industry, public services, public finances in Scotland. I think I've
:32:41. > :32:44.got a duty to be honest with people, I wouldn't support a Conservative
:32:45. > :32:47.Prime Minister. You have already said there could be some kind of
:32:48. > :32:53.accommodation with Labour, but could you really do a deal with Jeremy
:32:54. > :32:56.Corbyn, a man you said is not fit to be Prime Minister? Seriously. I'm
:32:57. > :33:02.trying just to be frank with people. I said it in 2015, if the arithmetic
:33:03. > :33:06.made a Progressive alliance possible, I would want to explore
:33:07. > :33:14.the SNP, not being part of a formal coalition, but I also have to deal
:33:15. > :33:18.with reality. I think what I seen over the last few days, she
:33:19. > :33:22.wrong-footed herself in calling this election. I think it has been
:33:23. > :33:26.bizarre watching the Prime Minister, who called this election, appear to
:33:27. > :33:30.be the most unprepared of the leaders for the selection. She can't
:33:31. > :33:34.answer basic questions. She has spent the election trying to dodge
:33:35. > :33:39.scrutiny, avoiding talking to real voters. I think if Theresa May has
:33:40. > :33:44.wrong-footed anybody, it's herself, and she's probably already starting
:33:45. > :33:52.to regret it. Nicola Sturgeon may be confident, and if the polls are
:33:53. > :33:55.right, it's a fairly safe bet that the SNP may win a majority of seats
:33:56. > :33:57.in Scotland. But if as predicted, the Conservatives increased their
:33:58. > :34:00.toehold, the danger for the Nationalists is that they may be
:34:01. > :34:04.seen to lost the momentum for independence. But with just over one
:34:05. > :34:11.week to go to the election, that is something that Nicola Sturgeon is
:34:12. > :34:14.just not prepared to swallow. Kirsty Talkington Nicola Sturgeon. We
:34:15. > :34:20.should say that we have approached the other main parties in Scotland,
:34:21. > :34:23.and we will be hearing from the other leaders before the election.
:34:24. > :34:27.Maybe they will be eating chips as well extract the world has been
:34:28. > :34:30.waiting with a degree of trepidation for Donald Trump to make up his mind
:34:31. > :34:34.on whether the US will withdraw from the Paris climate change agreement.
:34:35. > :34:39.He has been teasing us a bit to date with a tweet. I'll be announcing my
:34:40. > :34:43.decision on the Paris Accord over the next few days. Make America
:34:44. > :34:47.great again! Make of that what you will. Is the US ready to walk out of
:34:48. > :34:54.the deal, and what difference would it make to the planet if it did? A
:34:55. > :35:02.climate change adviser to Barack Obama joins us of the internet from
:35:03. > :35:05.Boulder Colorado. The Danish government's environmental
:35:06. > :35:11.Institute's the sceptical environmentalist has reservations.
:35:12. > :35:18.Good riddance to Paris, is that your take on it? Fundamentally we know
:35:19. > :35:25.that even if everybody did everything they promised in Paris,
:35:26. > :35:28.which is not going to happen because Trump has announced he is not going
:35:29. > :35:31.to do the clean power plan, but even if everyone did it, it would only
:35:32. > :35:34.get us 1% of the way of what politicians have promised us. It was
:35:35. > :35:38.already a very expensive treaty that would do almost no good. The whole
:35:39. > :35:41.conversation we are having right now, is Trump going to leave or not,
:35:42. > :35:45.is not going to make much difference. It's just a difference
:35:46. > :35:48.between an ineffective treaty and a very ineffective treaty. It does
:35:49. > :35:52.offer as an opportunity to start talking about, is there a smarter
:35:53. > :35:57.way forward? Yes, there is a much better way to try to help the
:35:58. > :36:05.climate change is that of going down... Let me put this to Paul, it
:36:06. > :36:10.is true, Paris is not the saving of the planet, is it? Paris is
:36:11. > :36:18.necessary, but not sufficient. It goes at the end of 24 years of trial
:36:19. > :36:21.and error to try and come up with a flame work -- a framework for
:36:22. > :36:27.nations, it is a long-term framework. The pledges that were
:36:28. > :36:32.made only go to 2030, they will be followed by other pledges for the
:36:33. > :36:38.future. Already the 2030 pledges will put down the global emissions
:36:39. > :36:41.curve so that it is significantly less, it is a foundation to build
:36:42. > :36:47.on, it's not sufficient but the best hope we have got. Paul Bodnar, what
:36:48. > :36:52.do you think the rest of the world should do now? If America leaves,
:36:53. > :36:55.should they play hardball? Should they have sanctions against American
:36:56. > :36:59.goods that are made in industries that don't face the same
:37:00. > :37:02.environmental constraint that our industries do? How do you think they
:37:03. > :37:06.should play it? The rest of the world has made quite clear that they
:37:07. > :37:11.intend to carry on. One of the changes that happened over the last
:37:12. > :37:13.15 years or so, since Kyodo and Copenhagen, is that countries have
:37:14. > :37:18.realised that making this transition to a clean energy economy is in
:37:19. > :37:22.their economic interest. If you look at the size of the global green
:37:23. > :37:27.energy market for goods and services, already about $1.5
:37:28. > :37:31.trillion and growing rapidly, it is a huge economic opportunity for
:37:32. > :37:35.Chinese and European firms, and they will be only too happy to pick up
:37:36. > :37:37.the slack from the United States in that regard. It's rather sad for our
:37:38. > :37:45.exporters and our businesses, however. Bjorn, I saw you scoffing
:37:46. > :37:50.as Paul was saying all of that. I'm sorry, we've just got to get back to
:37:51. > :37:54.reality. Look, the point is that right now the International energy
:37:55. > :37:58.agency tells us that we are spending more than $150 billion every year to
:37:59. > :38:01.subsidise this green economy that Paul is telling us is already
:38:02. > :38:05.effective. No, it only works because we are putting lots of money into
:38:06. > :38:12.it. We have got to us, are we getting much climate benefit out of
:38:13. > :38:15.it? The answer is no, of a next 25 years the International energy
:38:16. > :38:20.agency estimate will be spending $3 trillion just for subsidising
:38:21. > :38:25.inefficient soul and wind. By the end of that time we will have a tiny
:38:26. > :38:35.fraction, less than 3%. If we believe what Paul is saying, it's
:38:36. > :38:38.not going to make much difference, the Americans leaving. The rest of
:38:39. > :38:41.the world will carry on with this, and that is the fact. You're not
:38:42. > :38:43.going to get rid of it just by letting the second biggest emitter
:38:44. > :38:46.in the world leave. There is a couple of things we need to realise.
:38:47. > :38:50.One is, long-term trading has already stumbled at the first
:38:51. > :38:53.beginning when the US leaves. But also we have a situation where many
:38:54. > :38:58.developing countries have signed up basically because they were promised
:38:59. > :39:02.$100 billion per year starting in 2020. There's no chance in hell that
:39:03. > :39:06.is ever going to happen, so they are also going to start considering, do
:39:07. > :39:10.we want expensive, inefficient green technology, or do we want the cheap.
:39:11. > :39:17.Fuel economy? What we really need to understand is, we're doing a repeat
:39:18. > :39:21.of the Kyodo treaty. Back in the 1990s everybody told us that Kyodo
:39:22. > :39:24.was the solution. We knew that it wasn't but we wasted 15 years. I
:39:25. > :39:29.worry we are going to do the same thing with Paris. Paul, do you think
:39:30. > :39:32.the US, if it does leave now, we'll ever find itself wanting to come
:39:33. > :39:38.back into this thing? First, let me say that you have heard a lot of
:39:39. > :39:44.incorrect alternative facts and Bjorn, in particular about the cost
:39:45. > :39:48.of green energy, which is now cheaper than fossil fuels in many
:39:49. > :39:53.parts of the world. I think it would be very hard for the US to claw
:39:54. > :39:58.itself back from a second departure from the international stage on
:39:59. > :40:01.climate change. And most of the costs of withdrawing will fall on
:40:02. > :40:07.the United States in the form of a void and market opportunities. But
:40:08. > :40:12.also we are the second largest emitter in the world. Our emissions
:40:13. > :40:15.matter. If we stall out instead of continuing to aggressively reduce
:40:16. > :40:19.emissions, the biggest impact of all will be on the poorest and most
:40:20. > :40:22.honourable in the world. That's why you hear a unanimous chorus from
:40:23. > :40:26.those countries urging the Trump administration to stay in the
:40:27. > :40:31.agreement. Paul and Bjorn, thank you. We need to leave it there. That
:40:32. > :40:35.is it for this evening. Almost. Because we have a final piece of
:40:36. > :40:40.political argument for you. But it's not a political argument as you know
:40:41. > :40:43.it. Good politicians need to be good storytellers. They need tails and
:40:44. > :40:47.anecdotes to make their arguments. For the next few nights we have
:40:48. > :40:52.Asuncion your politicians to tell us a story. One preferably with a
:40:53. > :40:57.point. It is up to them to interpret their brief. The story can be true
:40:58. > :41:01.or false, abstract or literal, personal or political, just as long
:41:02. > :41:06.as it is a story. It is for those of us brought up on Jackanory. We're
:41:07. > :41:15.starting with the Lib Dems and Vince Cable's bedtime tale. Goodbye.
:41:16. > :41:26.Once upon a time, there was a prince called David. And he ruled well with
:41:27. > :41:31.a team of very wise advisors. But one day he decided he wanted to roll
:41:32. > :41:36.on his own. So he got rid of his advisers, and he sought help from a
:41:37. > :41:44.snake oil salesmen. In a far-away country called Australia. And the
:41:45. > :41:48.snake oil salesmen created for him a special chaos proof armour. And he
:41:49. > :41:55.told him to wear it at all times. And the Prince's sycophantic
:41:56. > :42:01.advisers told him that if he did that, he would be completely
:42:02. > :42:05.infallible. So to prove his strength he decided to wage war on a
:42:06. > :42:14.rebellious tribe in a place called Farage land. And he went into
:42:15. > :42:20.battle, and he lost. His once United Kingdom started to break apart. The
:42:21. > :42:25.currency collapsed, merchants and craftsmen moved away to other lands.
:42:26. > :42:31.And he was forced to resign. And he went to live in a remote forest. A
:42:32. > :42:39.new leader was chosen called Princess Theresa, she wanted to
:42:40. > :42:45.prove her strength, so she made peace with Farage land and decided
:42:46. > :42:50.to go to war with another tribe, called the Euros. And as she
:42:51. > :42:55.prepared for battle, she had a call from the same snake oil salesman
:42:56. > :43:04.from Australia. And what he said to her is that you should wear my
:43:05. > :43:08.special improved chaos proof armour. And he said, if you wear this in
:43:09. > :43:11.battle, you're bound to win. She hesitated, and thought. And then she
:43:12. > :43:24.said... Yes. Hello there, good evening. Tomorrow
:43:25. > :43:26.morning we start off at 14 degrees