:00:08. > :00:10.Theresa May faces questions from public sector workers.
:00:11. > :00:12.My question to you is, why do you care less
:00:13. > :00:14.about the children than the Labour government?
:00:15. > :00:19.I don't care less about the children.
:00:20. > :00:23.We'll talk to Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.
:00:24. > :00:26.Jeremy Corbyn faces questions on nuclear weapons.
:00:27. > :00:28.Would you allow North Korea or some idiot in Iran
:00:29. > :00:32.to bomb us and then say, oh, we'd better start talking?!
:00:33. > :00:42.No, of course not, of course I would not do that.
:00:43. > :00:46.We'll ask our panel if they think Mr Corbyn can win.
:00:47. > :00:49.The Conservative candidate in Thanet faces criminal charges
:00:50. > :00:55.How will this affect the race there?
:00:56. > :00:57.I wouldn't have thought it'd make any difference.
:00:58. > :01:01.Because I think they're all Ukip down this way.
:01:02. > :01:03.And, Stephen Smith drives his bus where most
:01:04. > :01:14.How many of these battle buses have you seen so far?
:01:15. > :01:28.If you've sat through an hour and a half
:01:29. > :01:30.of the Leaders' Debate and you're joining us now,
:01:31. > :01:39.If you've missed the whole thing up until this moment, fear not -
:01:40. > :01:42.we're live in York in the Spin Room, and will be talking to Boris Johnson
:01:43. > :01:46.You will get a full taste of it here.
:01:47. > :01:49.This was the last major set TV piece of the election,
:01:50. > :01:51.and it fell to the public to ask the questions.
:01:52. > :01:53.Theresa May faced questions about public services,
:01:54. > :01:55.Brexit, and her recent tendency to backtrack.
:01:56. > :01:58.Jeremy Corbyn was pressed by the public once again on Trident,
:01:59. > :02:06.his commitment to the red button and his attitude towards the IRA.
:02:07. > :02:09.It's hard to talk about winners and losers when the two never
:02:10. > :02:13.But let's go live to Nick Watt, who was watching the debate
:02:14. > :02:23.He can tell us what happened. What was your sense, Nick? Well, in these
:02:24. > :02:29.debates you are looking for easing a moment, the moment of the US
:02:30. > :02:34.presidential election when Ronald Reagan turned to Jimmy Carter and
:02:35. > :02:37.said, there you go again. This was not a head-to-head, and you didn't
:02:38. > :02:42.have a big moment like that. But what you did have was awkward
:02:43. > :02:45.moments for both leaders. For Jeremy Corbyn, his difficult moment came
:02:46. > :02:50.when he was asked about the Trident nuclear deterrent. He made clear he
:02:51. > :02:54.has changed his position from 2015 when he said that he would never use
:02:55. > :02:58.it. He said he would not authorise a first strike. But he could not bring
:02:59. > :03:06.himself to say that he would actually authorised it in those
:03:07. > :03:09.circumstances. A member of the audience said, surely it is better
:03:10. > :03:11.to have it there and not use it than to not have it. Jeremy Corbyn would
:03:12. > :03:14.not answer that question. For the Prime Minister there was a difficult
:03:15. > :03:17.moment when she appeared not to know that they had been recent reports
:03:18. > :03:21.that the UK has given aid money to North Korea. A more versatile Prime
:03:22. > :03:27.Minister would have said, we give money to people in need, we don't
:03:28. > :03:30.give it to regimes. Nick, who was your sense, I know you have
:03:31. > :03:34.clarified that they didn't actually meet, but was there in winner from
:03:35. > :03:39.tonight? Well, Theresa May entered this performance having struggled in
:03:40. > :03:44.this campaign. Jeremy Corbyn came to York tonight having had a very good
:03:45. > :03:47.few weeks. I would say, against that background, the Prime Minister
:03:48. > :03:51.performed considerably above expectations. There was a difficult
:03:52. > :03:56.moment for Jeremy Corbyn when he was asked, would he specifically condemn
:03:57. > :04:01.IRA terrorism? He couldn't do that and he said that he condemned all
:04:02. > :04:05.acts of terrorism. But there was one interesting unifying theme. Both
:04:06. > :04:08.leaders came under questions in their core areas and absolutely
:04:09. > :04:12.stuck to their positions. For Theresa May, there was a difficult
:04:13. > :04:17.emotional moment when a nurse said to her, why is it right I have only
:04:18. > :04:21.had a 1% pay rise, which is basically a pay cut? The Prime
:04:22. > :04:28.Minister said, there is no magic money tree, we have difficult public
:04:29. > :04:30.finances. Jeremy Corbyn faced difficult questions from a micro
:04:31. > :04:33.businessman who employs just five people. Why should I face an
:04:34. > :04:37.increase in Corporation Tax. Jeremy Corbyn said, I'm sure you'll
:04:38. > :04:41.understand we need money for public services. The mood in the two camps,
:04:42. > :04:46.the Corbyn camp very happy saying the Labour leader got across his
:04:47. > :04:49.core message, the big message he got across with that Theresa May would
:04:50. > :04:53.not debate with him. But I have seen some glum cabinet ministers this
:04:54. > :04:58.week. But this evening I'm seeing some Borre happy Cabinet ministers.
:04:59. > :05:08.One said to me, that was a slam dunk win for Theresa May. This was the
:05:09. > :05:11.last debate and it will define the last few days. Our policy editor
:05:12. > :05:12.Chris Cook has been taking a look at this debate. Here is his report.
:05:13. > :05:25.Tonight is the final event in this debate series... May
:05:26. > :05:32.versus Corbyn. Well, not really. It was May and then Corbyn. The Prime
:05:33. > :05:36.Minister insisted that they appear separately. And you can see some of
:05:37. > :05:41.her logic. She used the opportunity to kick lumps out of her opponents
:05:42. > :05:45.when they couldn't retort. You have Diane Abbott who can't add up
:05:46. > :05:49.sitting around the Cabinet table. John McDonnell, who is a Marxist.
:05:50. > :05:54.Nicola Sturgeon, who wants to break our country up. And Tim Farron who
:05:55. > :05:57.wants to bring us back into the EU, the direct opposite of what the
:05:58. > :06:02.British people want. The audience though gave her a pretty rough time.
:06:03. > :06:07.Refusing to answer people's questions, refusing to talk to
:06:08. > :06:09.Jeremy Corbyn. A Prime Minister and potential future Prime Minister
:06:10. > :06:18.doesn't understand the difference between a learning disability and
:06:19. > :06:22.the mental health condition. I had called an election... For the good
:06:23. > :06:24.of the Conservative Party, you have called a general election for the
:06:25. > :06:30.good of the Conservative Party and it will backfire on you. Including
:06:31. > :06:34.an Brexit. Do you really think you have any real leveraged with
:06:35. > :06:38.Brussels? An area where she has a rather well drilled response. I
:06:39. > :06:43.think we can negotiate a good deal, because a good deal in trade terms
:06:44. > :06:47.is not just of benefit to the UK, it is of benefit to businesses in the
:06:48. > :06:52.remaining countries in the European Union. Social care was where Mrs May
:06:53. > :06:56.had her weakest section. She pretended there hadn't been a U-turn
:06:57. > :07:00.involved in announcing a cap on social care costs. I heard the
:07:01. > :07:06.scaremongering that came out after our manifesto was published. And I
:07:07. > :07:09.set out one of the details, the aspects that would have been in the
:07:10. > :07:15.consultation, which is about having a cap on the absolute level. There
:07:16. > :07:19.is a flaw of ?100,000, you can protect 100000 and we will consult
:07:20. > :07:23.on watch and by the cap. This killer question was one she could not give
:07:24. > :07:28.a meaningful answer. You can tell us what the floor is now. Why can't you
:07:29. > :07:31.tell us the cap? APPLAUSE
:07:32. > :07:35.There was a run of concerns about austerity too, including mental
:07:36. > :07:40.health, schools bending and public sector pay. I've been working as a
:07:41. > :07:45.nurse for 26 years. Do the Tories expect our support in light of the
:07:46. > :07:49.1% pay increase? That is where Mr Corbyn was most comfortable, making
:07:50. > :07:52.a clear defence of a bigger state. We are asking the very biggest
:07:53. > :07:57.corporations to pay a bit more. But I'll cull you what, I think it's
:07:58. > :08:00.worth it. It's worth it so that any young person can go to university
:08:01. > :08:08.and not leave with debt, to make sure that school head teachers do
:08:09. > :08:11.not have to collect at the school gate in order to pay the teachers'
:08:12. > :08:13.salaries. Mr Corbyn, who started out pretty relaxed, lost his ribbon
:08:14. > :08:16.after being pressed several times on whether he would use our nuclear
:08:17. > :08:22.deterrent if we were attacked. The reality is that we have to obviously
:08:23. > :08:27.try to protect ourselves. We would not use it as first use. And, if we
:08:28. > :08:30.did use it, millions are going to die. You have to think this drink
:08:31. > :08:33.through. APPLAUSE
:08:34. > :08:41.-- you have to think this thing through. Would you use it as second
:08:42. > :08:47.use, or would you allow North Korea or some idiot in Iran to bomb us and
:08:48. > :08:53.then say, oh, we'd better start talking. You'd be too late! He was
:08:54. > :08:57.also pressed on his 1980s contact with Irish republicans. There has to
:08:58. > :09:01.be a coming together at some point. You were talking to them, they were
:09:02. > :09:04.killing women and children and you were talking to them. There has to
:09:05. > :09:11.be... Well, I was talking to representatives of the republican
:09:12. > :09:15.movement, yes. Actually, so was the Government at the same time. So this
:09:16. > :09:19.debate can tell us a lot we didn't know. These two politicians have
:09:20. > :09:23.vulnerabilities. But by now, that's hardly a surprise. That was Chris
:09:24. > :09:24.Cook. Joining me now from York,
:09:25. > :09:28.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson. Foreign Secretary, thank you for
:09:29. > :09:30.joining us. We're used to hearing strong
:09:31. > :09:47.and stable from Theresa May. Well, I think... She spoke for
:09:48. > :09:51.herself. She gave a commanding performance, and it came across
:09:52. > :09:55.very, very clearly that she's in well Min Lee the best candidate to
:09:56. > :10:00.be Prime Minister on Friday of next week -- overwhelmingly. Strong and
:10:01. > :10:05.stable was how she wanted to be seen. She emanated both virtues. Her
:10:06. > :10:10.answers were clear, they were concise. She got through a lot of
:10:11. > :10:14.them. Yes, she had some tough questioning, but I think when you
:10:15. > :10:18.contrast Jeremy Corbyn's performance and his... The difficulty he had
:10:19. > :10:23.with some pretty elementary questions about the defence of this
:10:24. > :10:27.country, about the Brexit negotiations... Let's talk about
:10:28. > :10:30.her. The audience didn't see strong and stable tonight, did they? They
:10:31. > :10:37.said she wobbled and backtracked, her so will their words, not mine.
:10:38. > :10:40.On social care, she still hasn't been able to admit that it was a
:10:41. > :10:44.U-turn. She talks about wanting to be honest but you can't admit that
:10:45. > :10:48.the cap on social care was something she thinks has now got wrong and she
:10:49. > :10:53.changed her mind. That's not strong and stable at all. On the contrary,
:10:54. > :10:57.I think she gave a very full answer to the whole question of social
:10:58. > :11:00.care, and she spelt out once again this is to stop people having to go
:11:01. > :11:05.through the agony of selling their homes to pay the care whilst they
:11:06. > :11:09.are alive whilst raising the threshold to ?100,000 so that you
:11:10. > :11:13.can pass on when you die. Yes, we are going to consult on the cap.
:11:14. > :11:17.There are difficulties with the cap being regressive, as she explained
:11:18. > :11:25.very clearly. I think the audience got that, and it was actually a
:11:26. > :11:28.useful exchange. But when you came to Jeremy Corbyn on the defence of
:11:29. > :11:31.our country. I mean, we've invested ?31 billion in the Trident... We
:11:32. > :11:39.will be talking about Labour, Jeremy Corbyn and Trident, I assure you...
:11:40. > :11:44.But we are talking about the Conservatives' message tonight,
:11:45. > :11:46.which is her message is about hard-working families, Foreign
:11:47. > :11:50.Secretary, that is something we have heard all the way through. She wants
:11:51. > :11:54.to talk to hard-working families. We heard tonight in the and say to her
:11:55. > :12:00.that she is earning the same money that she was in 2009. Theresa May
:12:01. > :12:04.said, there no magic money tree. That's pretty condescending, isn't
:12:05. > :12:08.it, for somebody who has seen 14% less money in real terms, that's
:12:09. > :12:17.what she said tonight. No, what you pointed out, we have already spent
:12:18. > :12:21.half ?1 trillion on the NHS. She was talking to a nurse who hasn't seen
:12:22. > :12:27.her salary go up in real terms since 2009. I understand, nobody minimises
:12:28. > :12:32.the difficulties that are facing. As Theresa May is just said, we have to
:12:33. > :12:36.be prudent public expenditure. It is the cause of that that we can put ?8
:12:37. > :12:40.billion into the NHS to continue to improve that great service -- it is
:12:41. > :12:43.because of that. You can only do that if you have a strong economy. I
:12:44. > :12:52.know you don't want me to talk about the policies of the Labour Party...
:12:53. > :12:56.When -- if I can... To condescend to a guy who was running a small
:12:57. > :12:59.business and want to whack up his taxes with no understanding of the
:13:00. > :13:03.damage that does to the productivity of the UK economy, the ability of
:13:04. > :13:08.our economy to generate the tax revenue that we need to pay for the
:13:09. > :13:12.NHS and other public services. You can confirm what Michael Fallon told
:13:13. > :13:15.the Telegraph, there will be no increase in in contact under this
:13:16. > :13:22.Conservative parliament if you win. Is that correct -- in income tax. We
:13:23. > :13:27.have already taken 4 million of the lowest paid out of tax. No increase
:13:28. > :13:31.in income tax, is that what you will pledge? We will bear down on
:13:32. > :13:38.taxation, we have no plans to raise income tax. Note signs for the high
:13:39. > :13:42.earners, you have just talk to me about being prudent and having to
:13:43. > :13:47.make choices and not paying in nurse more than 1%, so there will be no
:13:48. > :13:52.increase in income tax, even for high earners, write? Our plans are
:13:53. > :13:57.to cut taxes. Flavour's plans are to put them up. And to keep putting
:13:58. > :14:00.them up -- Labour's plans. Funding unnecessary things such as
:14:01. > :14:05.renationalising the utilities on the railways. And necessary things like
:14:06. > :14:15.a nurse's wagers. A colossal expense. It's by having a strong
:14:16. > :14:18.economy, by believing in this country and getting the right Brexit
:14:19. > :14:21.deal above all that we will have the revenues, we will have the tax
:14:22. > :14:23.revenues we need to pay for great public services. Let's get onto
:14:24. > :14:26.foreign affairs. It's lovely to have the Foreign Secretary here. In the
:14:27. > :14:28.last 24 hours, Donald Trump has walked away from the most
:14:29. > :14:33.significant global deal to save the planet. And the best we have heard
:14:34. > :14:36.from Theresa May is that it is disappointing. That sounds like what
:14:37. > :14:41.you'd say when a souffle doesn't make it!
:14:42. > :14:49.Everyone remembers that Bill Clinton, who was much loved by the
:14:50. > :14:53.liberal left and all the rest of it, did not ratify the Kyoto protocol,
:14:54. > :14:59.and yet America has met its obligations there. Let's see what
:15:00. > :15:07.Donald Trump does before we waive our finger at him and accused him of
:15:08. > :15:13.things. I think it would be better, as I said to Rex Tillerson and all
:15:14. > :15:16.our counterparts across Government in America, that it would have been
:15:17. > :15:23.much better to go with the original thing. But it didn't work. He made a
:15:24. > :15:30.clear commitment to his electorate before the American election that he
:15:31. > :15:35.would do just this. And the best special relationship can say is
:15:36. > :15:41.disappointing. We can work to reduce CO2. Huge steps have been
:15:42. > :15:48.accomplished at on both sides of the Atlantic to do this. We have reduced
:15:49. > :15:54.it and so have the Americans. Fried didn't Britain partake in the joint
:15:55. > :15:59.letter? As you heard the Prime Minister say very well, she doesn't
:16:00. > :16:07.have to tag along with a bunch of other signatories. Tag along? So we
:16:08. > :16:11.are tagging along now, is it? She was talking to the Americans in a
:16:12. > :16:17.way that those other leaders won't. She made her view clear. We are
:16:18. > :16:22.going to work with the Americans nonetheless to continue to tackle
:16:23. > :16:27.climate change, which is the right thing to do. You did mean the office
:16:28. > :16:30.of Foreign Secretary. People are starting to talk about whether you
:16:31. > :16:34.will keep your job after the election, and when you talk about
:16:35. > :16:39.tagging along with foreign leaders, it just demeans your office. I
:16:40. > :16:44.simply fail to understand what you're saying. It is completely
:16:45. > :16:49.right of the Prime Minister to ring up the American president to express
:16:50. > :16:55.the position of the British Government in terms that I think
:16:56. > :16:58.were loud and clear. Our job, unlike Jeremy Corbyn, the most
:16:59. > :17:01.anti-American leader of the Labour Party I can remember, we have
:17:02. > :17:13.considerable ability to help the Americans. Do you think people who
:17:14. > :17:18.criticise Donald Trump are just whingeing? I will give some
:17:19. > :17:22.examples, if I may. One of them is obviously over the air run deal,
:17:23. > :17:27.which Jeremy Corbyn alluded to several times. Britain has worked
:17:28. > :17:31.with the Americans so they haven't scrapped the Iran nuclear deal,
:17:32. > :17:34.which had been a risk. We are working with them on their policy
:17:35. > :17:44.for the Middle East peace process, where Donald Trump has shown great
:17:45. > :17:48.interest. If you look at the actions of America in Syria, their treatment
:17:49. > :17:52.of Russia, they are far more proactive now in dealing with the
:17:53. > :18:00.atrocities being committed by Assad. And that is very much, I believe,
:18:01. > :18:03.thanks to the intercessions of the UK Government and a powerful
:18:04. > :18:17.relationship that has been developed between us. Theresa May did not back
:18:18. > :18:24.you at the time. We haven't had any such requests, and all I can say is
:18:25. > :18:33.that on the two occasions when the Americans have taken action, I think
:18:34. > :18:38.they had a material impact on the calculations of the Russians and of
:18:39. > :18:42.the Assad regime. Do you think you will be in a job next week? That is
:18:43. > :18:46.something that the Obama administration absolutely failed to
:18:47. > :18:52.do, and I think part of that success is thanks to UK diplomacy. As for
:18:53. > :18:59.your questions about the job that I may have. I want, if at all
:19:00. > :19:06.possible, to be the MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip. Equally important
:19:07. > :19:10.is that we get the right person leading our Brexit negotiations, and
:19:11. > :19:15.tonight, it was absolutely clear to me that there is only one person who
:19:16. > :19:19.can conceivably do this, the division and firmness of purpose,
:19:20. > :19:24.and that is Theresa May. Thank you very much. I don't agree with -- I
:19:25. > :19:32.don't disagree with the analysis that this was a heavy victory for
:19:33. > :19:36.her tonight. Thanks for your time. Following Theresa May came Jeremy
:19:37. > :19:44.Corbyn. He faced questions from the audience, from the hosts, David
:19:45. > :19:52.Dimbleby. We are joined by Ian Lavery, Labour's national elections
:19:53. > :19:54.and campaign coordinator. He can miraculously join us where you might
:19:55. > :19:58.have seen Boris Johnson a few seconds ago. A lot of this, as you
:19:59. > :20:04.heard from the Foreign Secretary and the audience tonight, came down to
:20:05. > :20:07.that one question - security. Everything to Jeremy Corbyn tonight
:20:08. > :20:13.centred on whether the public and the audience trust him with the
:20:14. > :20:16.nation's security. I think Jeremy answered very sincerely and honestly
:20:17. > :20:22.tonight, as always. I thought it was a tremendous performance. He stood
:20:23. > :20:27.there, took the questions, answered every single one, unlike Theresa
:20:28. > :20:31.May, who has had a disastrous campaign. And what you have just
:20:32. > :20:37.seen there before is a job interview by Boris Johnson, very intriguing
:20:38. > :20:41.stuff. Jeremy Corbyn performed exceptionally well tonight. The
:20:42. > :20:44.trouble is, though, the same questions have plagued him right the
:20:45. > :20:50.way through this campaign, and it wasn't from journalists tonight,
:20:51. > :20:54.from the BBC and the media, but from members of the public, and it
:20:55. > :20:58.suggests that there is baggage that surrounds him, questions about his
:20:59. > :21:05.relationship to terrorism, to the IRA, to nuclear weapons. You can't
:21:06. > :21:09.get past that, can you? Jeremy Bowen sub that fully tonight. He said, for
:21:10. > :21:13.example, that for many years, the only way to ensure that we have
:21:14. > :21:19.resolutions to conflicts across the globe would be to have constructive
:21:20. > :21:29.dialogue, discussions. At times, it's not very favourable. At times,
:21:30. > :21:34.you might have to speak to people who you really don't want to. And
:21:35. > :21:38.Jeremy explained that. With regard to the IRA, he explained that he
:21:39. > :21:42.spoke to people from across the piece, nationalists and unionists.
:21:43. > :21:49.Look at the solution we've got, we got the Good Friday agreement,
:21:50. > :21:53.peace, and that is because Jeremy and his like think it is right to
:21:54. > :21:58.consult with people across the piece. Jeremy Corbyn didn't take
:21:59. > :22:01.part in the peace process. He didn't call the IRA terrorists. He could
:22:02. > :22:05.have shut that down, and he could have said what he would do with the
:22:06. > :22:11.nuclear button and a second response. He didn't. I'm not
:22:12. > :22:15.suggesting for one minute that Jeremy Corbyn took part in any
:22:16. > :22:19.discussions. What he did say was that at the time when he was
:22:20. > :22:22.discussing with all parts of the community in Northern Ireland, that
:22:23. > :22:26.the Government were doing that at the same time, Margaret Thatcher's
:22:27. > :22:31.Government, which was interesting. They were right at the time, because
:22:32. > :22:33.what we want to see what we have now is a peaceful solution to the
:22:34. > :22:38.situation in Northern Ireland. Surely, that is what we all want.
:22:39. > :22:41.Would you accept that until Jeremy Corbyn can make those sorts of
:22:42. > :22:49.questions go away from members of the public that were facing into
:22:50. > :22:51.night, from people watching at home and thinking the same thing is, that
:22:52. > :22:56.he cannot be trusted with the nation's security? Jeremy Corbyn be
:22:57. > :23:03.trusted with national security. That isn't in any doubt, and he explained
:23:04. > :23:07.that tonight, very clearly, that he takes the national security of this
:23:08. > :23:10.country extremely seriously. One of the differences between Jeremy and
:23:11. > :23:16.the Conservatives is that Jeremy believes in preventing further
:23:17. > :23:21.conflict, in discussion and negotiation with countries across
:23:22. > :23:28.the globe. He doesn't want to wait until the final seconds to run and
:23:29. > :23:32.press a button that perhaps could incinerate millions of human beings.
:23:33. > :23:37.I think that's sensible and I think that's what people want - dialogue,
:23:38. > :23:42.discussion, honesty, sincerity, agreement that this will never, ever
:23:43. > :23:46.happen. We don't want people running towards the button and trying to get
:23:47. > :23:49.there before each other to kill off the human race. It's absurd. Ian
:23:50. > :23:52.Lavery, thank you very much indeed. Meanwhile, at the end of what has
:23:53. > :23:55.probably felt like a long week for Theresa May,
:23:56. > :23:57.we heard that a Conservative candidate is facing charges over his
:23:58. > :23:59.2015 general election expenses. Craig Mackinlay says
:24:00. > :24:01.he's done nothing wrong, and will continue to fight to be
:24:02. > :24:04.re-elected next week with The Crown Prosecution Service says
:24:05. > :24:12.it's charged Mr Mackinlay, who defeated Nigel Farage
:24:13. > :24:14.in South Thanet in one of the constituency battles
:24:15. > :24:16.of the night, with offences under the Representation
:24:17. > :24:19.of the People Act. David Grossman has
:24:20. > :24:21.been to South Thanet, Is this battlebus full
:24:22. > :24:26.of Conservative activists visiting South Thanet in the 2015 general
:24:27. > :24:28.election part of national It might seem like a dull question,
:24:29. > :24:35.but the two are treated differently, Knowingly failing to declare
:24:36. > :24:40.election spending correctly The then-victorious candidate,
:24:41. > :24:48.Craig Mackinlay, has been charged with two offences relating
:24:49. > :24:50.to election spending Also charged are his election
:24:51. > :25:03.agent, Nathan Gray, and a party organiser,
:25:04. > :25:04.Marion Little. Back in 2015, this was the front
:25:05. > :25:07.line of the Conservatives' It was such a Ukip-supporting area
:25:08. > :25:11.that Nigel Farage had chosen it The Tories thought if they could
:25:12. > :25:15.beat him here, well, they could hold back the tide
:25:16. > :25:18.of Ukip nationally. The defeated Ukip candidate in 2015
:25:19. > :25:21.was out campaigning in Clacton today, chatting to journalists,
:25:22. > :25:24.when an aide starts trying Right, that's big
:25:25. > :25:34.news, OK, thank you. Well, effectively what it means
:25:35. > :25:42.in that constituency is that, whilst his name will stay
:25:43. > :25:45.on the ballot paper, I think the chances of people voting
:25:46. > :25:49.for him are now very slim, so I think that constituency will be
:25:50. > :25:52.a straight fight now between Ukip and the Labour Party,
:25:53. > :25:55.and I will be there tomorrow afternoon giving a speech at 5pm
:25:56. > :26:01.to support our candidate. And what do you think it means more
:26:02. > :26:04.broadly in the context of seven days Well, once again it's bad
:26:05. > :26:09.judgment from Theresa May. But why on Earth would you allow
:26:10. > :26:12.someone to go ahead as a general election candidate when this cloud
:26:13. > :26:15.was clearly hanging over him? In a statement today,
:26:16. > :26:31.Mr Mackinlay said... On election night 2015,
:26:32. > :26:34.I was staying at this hotel in Ramsgate, ready to cover
:26:35. > :26:39.the count the next morning, when who should I bump into,
:26:40. > :26:42.also staying here, but a very senior party worker from
:26:43. > :26:45.Conservative Central Office. Just keeping an eye on things,
:26:46. > :26:51.was the casual reply. It turned out that a whole team
:26:52. > :26:56.of Conservative Party workers had been staying here and at another
:26:57. > :26:58.hotel off and on throughout They racked up hotel bills
:26:59. > :27:05.of thousands of pounds, But should the money have
:27:06. > :27:09.been declared as local If so, it would have
:27:10. > :27:14.taken his spending well South Thanet was the last
:27:15. > :27:20.remaining open investigation Last month, the CPS decided
:27:21. > :27:26.against charging more than a dozen other candidates
:27:27. > :27:28.over similar allegations. In a statement today,
:27:29. > :27:31.the Conservative Party said they were confident that
:27:32. > :27:34.Mr Mackinlay would be cleared, meanwhile criticising
:27:35. > :27:36.what they called fragmented, Well, the Conservative Party
:27:37. > :27:42.continues to believe that these Craig Mackinlay is innocent
:27:43. > :27:45.until proven guilty, Mr Mackinlay, along with Nathan Gray
:27:46. > :27:51.and Marion Little, will appear We return to the issue of climate
:27:52. > :28:05.change. So, in the absence of America,
:28:06. > :28:08.it was China and Europe who came together and pledged to unite
:28:09. > :28:11.to save the planet - a sight few would have
:28:12. > :28:13.predicted five years ago. Preisdent Trump announced his
:28:14. > :28:14.withdrawal on Thursday, saying he believed that
:28:15. > :28:17.to participate in the pact would be to undermine the US economy,
:28:18. > :28:20.wipe out jobs, and put his country Is that how the rest
:28:21. > :28:24.of the world sees it? Joining me now is Todd Stern,
:28:25. > :28:27.former advisor on Climate Change to President Obama,
:28:28. > :28:29.who was the United State's Chief Negotiator on the 2015
:28:30. > :28:48.Paris Climate Agreement. Thanks very much, Emily, it's a
:28:49. > :28:51.pleasure to be here. Look, I think this is a terrible decision. It's
:28:52. > :28:55.bad for the United States in all sorts of ways. It's bad for the
:28:56. > :29:02.world and battle climate change. It's also a big diplomatic hit by
:29:03. > :29:05.the United States. In diplomacy, a country's reputation and standing
:29:06. > :29:08.and credibility matter above all. What the rest of the world is going
:29:09. > :29:13.to see here is that the United States has given them a slap in the
:29:14. > :29:17.face. The drug administration, President Trump, has given -- the
:29:18. > :29:22.Trump administration. It took years of work to get this deal gone. It is
:29:23. > :29:27.a balanced, fair and universal agreement, the first time a real,
:29:28. > :29:31.durable, effective climate agreement has been established after all these
:29:32. > :29:36.years of trying. I see no legitimate case for having pulled out. It's
:29:37. > :29:40.going to be quite damaging for the US. Boris Johnson a moment ago said
:29:41. > :29:46.that Bill Clinton never ratified Kyodo. Is that an equitable
:29:47. > :29:50.arrangement? -- Kyodo. I did hear that, and there is no legitimate
:29:51. > :29:56.comparison there. There is not a question of whether Bill Clinton,
:29:57. > :30:02.who I worked for, by the way, ratified the agreement. The
:30:03. > :30:06.agreement had a structure and a formation that had in reality no
:30:07. > :30:10.chance of getting ratified in the US Senate, that was too bad, we wanted
:30:11. > :30:14.it to happen but it just wasn't going to happen and it wasn't
:30:15. > :30:19.because President Clinton didn't try. Do you think China is taking
:30:20. > :30:24.the place of America? Is it emerging as the saviour of the planet? Well,
:30:25. > :30:27.I don't think China is the saviour of the planet but I will say that
:30:28. > :30:34.I'm glad that China is making clear that they intend to stay in the
:30:35. > :30:40.agreement and to continue with their pledges. That's important. Obviously
:30:41. > :30:43.the US and China together, the work that we did together, the diplomacy
:30:44. > :30:47.was enormously important to getting the agreement done. And it's a good
:30:48. > :30:52.thing that China wants to stay in. It's going to be also I think
:30:53. > :30:56.enormously important that Europe, including the UK, step up and play a
:30:57. > :31:02.leadership role. And many other countries around the world. So I
:31:03. > :31:06.wouldn't at all look at China as a saviour, that would be a real
:31:07. > :31:11.mistake. But China is an important player. There are many other
:31:12. > :31:15.important players. China, as the world's largest emitter at this
:31:16. > :31:19.point by far, obviously has a responsibility, and I'm glad to hear
:31:20. > :31:23.that President Xi Jinping seems to be saying that they intend to meet
:31:24. > :31:26.that responsibility. Todd Stern, thank you very much for joining us.
:31:27. > :31:28.Back to the election now, and our regular Friday panel.
:31:29. > :31:32.Paul Mason - Corbyn supporter and journalist.
:31:33. > :31:34.And Polly Mackenzie - former advisor to Nick Clegg.
:31:35. > :31:43.Very nice to see you all. A quick run through, who do you think one
:31:44. > :31:47.that debate? Where their winners and losers for you, Paul? I'm going to
:31:48. > :31:52.say this, you have been very good at not being to tribal up to this
:31:53. > :31:55.point! I have great hopes for honesty... I think what was wrong
:31:56. > :32:00.with that debate is that at this stage in the game we need expert
:32:01. > :32:04.people quizzing both sides. Hugh won was the politicians because they
:32:05. > :32:13.were not expertly quizzed. Neither of them was pushed to the limits of
:32:14. > :32:15.where their positions are because the audience... I think they were
:32:16. > :32:17.coming from an emotional position, which is where many voters come
:32:18. > :32:21.from. On things like nuclear, tonight this is the issue that
:32:22. > :32:27.Labour spin doctors want to avoid, I want to hit it head-on. The position
:32:28. > :32:30.is clear. No first use is incredibly new and innovative for the British
:32:31. > :32:34.nuclear military establishment, and yet nobody in the audience seemed to
:32:35. > :32:38.pick it up. I'm concerned that the quality of democracy we are going to
:32:39. > :32:41.get at the end of this election is one where, you know, two completely
:32:42. > :32:47.different politicians have really fail to be quizzed expertly in the
:32:48. > :32:52.weight that... That is very brave, saying the audience asked the wrong
:32:53. > :32:56.questions. When they are quizzed expertly, Corbyn supporters go on
:32:57. > :33:02.Twitter and troll them and call them Zionists asking hard questions.
:33:03. > :33:07.Obviously is wrong. But the point I'm trying to make is that we need
:33:08. > :33:12.to know now, what is the cap? It was said again and again, what is the
:33:13. > :33:17.cap on how much savings you lose from the dementia tax? We don't
:33:18. > :33:21.know. Polly, let me come to you. What did you feel? This was about
:33:22. > :33:28.the warmth at an audience has for whoever is on the stage, Hugh won
:33:29. > :33:32.that? I think Theresa May was better than she has been. She has had a
:33:33. > :33:39.wobble for the last ten days, but it feels like she's back on track, as
:33:40. > :33:43.good as she could be. You do have to have different phases. Andrew Neil
:33:44. > :33:47.taking people to pieces, but also people who can relate to human
:33:48. > :33:50.beings. Both of them were better than you would have expected on
:33:51. > :33:55.that. Politicians get found out when they are asked questions by real
:33:56. > :33:59.people, I see that every day on my radio show. It is the real voters,
:34:00. > :34:03.when they ask questions, politicians are sometimes like goldfish. We saw
:34:04. > :34:12.that tonight with Jeremy Corbyn. This was an important event, it had
:34:13. > :34:15.the highest audience of any interview programme so far, and I'm
:34:16. > :34:17.afraid, Paul, that Jeremy Corbyn was found out tonight. His remarks on
:34:18. > :34:24.terrorism, he could not bring himself to condemn the IRA. He
:34:25. > :34:30.condemned them. No, he didn't. On nuclear defence... This man is not
:34:31. > :34:35.fit... I don't want to rerun the debate. What I do want to say is, at
:34:36. > :34:38.the end of the week when we have seen an extraordinary diversity of
:34:39. > :34:42.polls in the way that we have and the two years or whatever, where
:34:43. > :34:47.would you put your number is now? If I come to you for maps, and I know
:34:48. > :34:52.you do this anyway as a hobby, you are going for a Tory majority, still
:34:53. > :34:57.worse plot yes, I am. Theresa May has had a bad week, let nobody
:34:58. > :35:00.denies that. Tonight she came out fighting. Any floating voter who
:35:01. > :35:04.watched that will have been more impressed by Theresa May than they
:35:05. > :35:11.thought they would be. In terms of numbers, at the start of this
:35:12. > :35:15.campaign I predicted a Tory majority of 74. Then I went through all of
:35:16. > :35:19.the constituencies on the basis of the opinion poll lead, I came out
:35:20. > :35:23.with a majority of 130, that has role so much rolled back, it will
:35:24. > :35:32.not be that high. But I still expect a landslide. About 100? 80 to 100. I
:35:33. > :35:37.think Iain is better as a detailed numbers, but the Tories will win
:35:38. > :35:41.this. 50, 75, whatever it is. What is depressing for me is that neither
:35:42. > :35:45.Theresa May more Jeremy Corbyn were particularly strong. They both have
:35:46. > :35:50.big areas of weakness. Stronger than Tim Farron! Nick Clegg is worried
:35:51. > :35:57.about his seat tonight, is that right? People said that Sheffield
:35:58. > :36:00.Hallam was going to be lost, but Nick won with a substantial
:36:01. > :36:06.majority. Is it conceivable that the Lib Dems could go back with this
:36:07. > :36:09.time? At elections, anything is conceivable. People pledged to eat
:36:10. > :36:14.their hats and look like idiots, or run down the street naked! Of
:36:15. > :36:20.course, anything is plausible. Like my promise in 2010! All that I can
:36:21. > :36:24.do is leave the range of polls, the maximum that Theresa May is going to
:36:25. > :36:31.get is ten extra seats, I would have thought. Seriously?! I hope there is
:36:32. > :36:35.money on this afterwards! Paul, in Corbyn HQ, can I just ask you, are
:36:36. > :36:39.they preparing for the possibility of it hung parliament or a wind.
:36:40. > :36:44.They are preparing for a possibility of a hung parliament or a win.
:36:45. > :36:48.People were talking about the Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish
:36:49. > :36:53.governments on Brexit. They were not at the beginning of this, write?
:36:54. > :36:57.Absolutely not. Go back and look at the polls. The Rangers from a small
:36:58. > :37:03.Tory majority through to a hung parliament through to a minority...
:37:04. > :37:07.They are ahead, aren't they? I spent the whole of the 2050 election
:37:08. > :37:09.campaign preparing for it hung parliament. Wishing it is going to
:37:10. > :37:15.happen doesn't actually make it happen! You are believing the polls
:37:16. > :37:21.that you want to believe, not the majority. Labour very concerned
:37:22. > :37:24.about the turnout. On a high turnout of young people... And you have to
:37:25. > :37:31.get young people out, young people to put their money where their mouth
:37:32. > :37:36.is. If they don't vote Labour, it is ?9,000 on your university fees from
:37:37. > :37:40.September. He is also saying that students who have already gone
:37:41. > :37:44.through the University going to have their money refunded, this is
:37:45. > :37:48.fantasy politics. This feels like a personality race. The more people
:37:49. > :37:53.have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, it seems the more they have warmed to him.
:37:54. > :37:58.The more they have seen of Theresa May the less they have want to hurt.
:37:59. > :38:04.I generally believe tonight was a turning point -- the less they have
:38:05. > :38:09.warmed to her. I think you should apologise to what you said, the
:38:10. > :38:15.Trump playbook. Your side is calling my Vida terrorist. We have
:38:16. > :38:20.questioned... -- might lead a terrorist. Would you like to
:38:21. > :38:26.apologise for that? It is out of the Trump playbook. He is terrified of
:38:27. > :38:29.debating. It is legitimate to ask, where is she? You questioned her
:38:30. > :38:35.health, you should be ashamed of yourself. Do you think any of this
:38:36. > :38:39.cuts through? Some of it does. Reinforcing what we heard earlier,
:38:40. > :38:42.they all still feel the same. The policies are incredibly diverging in
:38:43. > :38:46.this election in the way that they haven't been recently. But you still
:38:47. > :38:50.get the sense that all of the politicians are kind of mediocre.
:38:51. > :38:58.Who do you think has played dirty? On, everybody. Do you? The future of
:38:59. > :39:02.the country is at stake. The other side is actually saying that Labour
:39:03. > :39:10.and the millions of people who support it or in some ways tainted
:39:11. > :39:16.by terrorism... Absolutely. Jeremy Corbyn has supported the IRA. You
:39:17. > :39:24.are digging the grave of consensus politics in this country. Labour
:39:25. > :39:27.supports the rule of law, anti-terrorist... I'm so sorry, we
:39:28. > :39:40.need to get to Steve Smith, he is on his bus. We need to go on.
:39:41. > :39:43.Finally... We will come back to Diane Abbott next week.
:39:44. > :39:45.Imagine the scene: A snap election is called, the Newsnight office
:39:46. > :39:49.From this creative huddle, a germ - in fact, lots of germs,
:39:50. > :39:54.A vision of red: A bus, a battle bus, with Stephen Smith on board,
:39:55. > :39:56.visiting constituencies that have been craving some election glamour -
:39:57. > :40:01.Tonight we bring you the last excursion.
:40:02. > :40:04.Welcome to our popular and acclaimed general election
:40:05. > :40:08.And if you can see this, it means we've had a second
:40:09. > :40:13.Let me refresh your memory about our high-quality format.
:40:14. > :40:16.We're attempting to sprinkle some election razzmatazz on the places
:40:17. > :40:23.Too rock-solid for them to rock up to in their wheels.
:40:24. > :40:33.We've come to the great city of Liverpool on our magical mystery
:40:34. > :40:37.tour, to another constituency that doesn't tend to see a lot in the way
:40:38. > :40:53.Liverpool's Fab Four constituencies are considered to be among
:40:54. > :40:59.We're in Walton, where the party romped home at the last election
:41:00. > :41:06.This constituency is so red that the Conservative candidate
:41:07. > :41:12.Walton's only a few square miles in size -
:41:13. > :41:15.all too easy for our charabanc to stray across the
:41:16. > :41:25.Looks like this bus is not returning.
:41:26. > :41:31.So why is it that election fun and games generally pass Walton by?
:41:32. > :41:33.If only there was a numbers-savvy prodigy to give this vehicle
:41:34. > :41:42.It's only Newsnight's Chris Cook, the Kitt to our Knight Rider,
:41:43. > :41:49.Liverpool Walton, it's fair to say, is a 1-party Labour seat.
:41:50. > :41:53.It's one of only five constituencies in Britain where the second-place
:41:54. > :41:58.party got no more than 10% of the vote.
:41:59. > :42:00.If the other parties last time around had been
:42:01. > :42:03.interested in fighting here, they could each have spent ?12,000
:42:04. > :42:10.But, in practice, the Conservatives, Ukip and the Liberal Democrats
:42:11. > :42:13.all together combined spent only ?3000 on their campaign here.
:42:14. > :42:18.It's really not a seat where the result is in question.
:42:19. > :42:29.After all these years, some facts in one of my investigative reports.
:42:30. > :42:34.So, do the folk here feel they've been taken for granted?
:42:35. > :42:38.Where better to take our bus to meet voters than the colourful bus stops
:42:39. > :42:46.How are you enjoying the election so far?
:42:47. > :43:03.How many of these battle buses have you seen so far?
:43:04. > :43:06.They only come when they really need you, don't they?
:43:07. > :43:10.It's pretty rock-solid, this seat, isn't it?
:43:11. > :43:15.If that is the problem, once they know they've got a safe
:43:16. > :43:19.Do you think it would help if you saw more of the party
:43:20. > :43:31.I sometimes feel like my MPs aren't always visible
:43:32. > :43:36.You sound like you take quite an interest in it, is that right?
:43:37. > :43:38.Because, I mean, it's affecting our future.
:43:39. > :43:41.We've had such a turbulent year for politics, haven't we,
:43:42. > :43:47.I hope your real bus comes along soon!
:43:48. > :43:54.You wait all Newsnight for a bus, and then two come along at once.
:43:55. > :43:58.Oh, it's one of those natty convertible numbers.
:43:59. > :44:04.Would you swap your Liverpool tour bus for our Newsnight battlebus?
:44:05. > :44:10.Newsnight battlebus, come and have a chat about the election!
:44:11. > :44:26.This is Steven Smith with the number one tour bus in Liverpool.
:44:27. > :44:53.He is in Bristol with a full programme then.