The London Attack

:00:00. > :00:00.Two days after the London Bridge attack, these

:00:07. > :00:15.But remarkably, in one case, Khuram Butt, his jihadism seemed

:00:16. > :00:19.How on earth was it allowed to end up in a murderous

:00:20. > :00:30.I was one of the chief radicalisers and recruiters for Al-Qaeda here in

:00:31. > :00:34.the United States from 2007 until my arrest in 2011. I would say he

:00:35. > :00:36.appeared on our radar rather late, but was an active member.

:00:37. > :00:39.We'll reflect on some of the awkward choices now facing us

:00:40. > :00:45.To the sick and evil extremists who commit

:00:46. > :00:52.these hideous crimes, we will defeat you.

:00:53. > :00:54.Believe it or not, the US president has taken exception

:00:55. > :01:02."After Donald Trump's tweets, I have learned that Whitehall

:01:03. > :01:04.is going cold on his proposed state visit."

:01:05. > :01:11.We'll get the White House view from this Trump advisor.

:01:12. > :01:13.As the city returns to wary normality, how should

:01:14. > :01:20.It's tough when you've got children and you're dropping them at school a

:01:21. > :01:23.road away from where it happened. You don't feel necessarily safe,

:01:24. > :01:26.doing that, but life has to go on. We'll debate the best way

:01:27. > :01:35.to root out extremism. London got back to normal

:01:36. > :01:40.today, it has to really. But the word "normal" has

:01:41. > :01:42.an ominous connotation. Is terror on the streets a normality

:01:43. > :01:45.to which we now have Is it set to become like the ghastly

:01:46. > :01:50.shooting sprees in the US, where the angrily insane too

:01:51. > :01:53.frequently manage to kill several As it happens, a disgruntled

:01:54. > :01:59.employee did that in Orlando in Florida today, taking the lives

:02:00. > :02:02.of five others. Well, no country can be relaxed

:02:03. > :02:06.about random murder, and so it is no surprise that here,

:02:07. > :02:10.the London Bridge attack has had political fallout,

:02:11. > :02:12.and it has led to inevitable soul-searching as to

:02:13. > :02:18.whether we are preventing attacks One of the attackers

:02:19. > :02:24.was a well-known jihadi - he had mixed with other prominent

:02:25. > :02:25.extremists. John Sweeney has been piecing

:02:26. > :02:35.together what we know about him, These are the faces of two of the

:02:36. > :02:41.three men who killed seven people on London Bridge on Saturday night.

:02:42. > :02:45.Rachid Redouane is a Moroccan with Irish nationality, of whom little is

:02:46. > :02:51.known. The identity of a second killer has not yet been revealed by

:02:52. > :02:56.the police. But the third, Khuram Butt, was the jihadi killer who not

:02:57. > :03:05.just hid in plain sight, he starred in a TV documentary. This way lads,

:03:06. > :03:09.lads, lads. Come here. The group display the black flag of zraum, a

:03:10. > :03:15.symbol associated with Islamic armies for 1200 years... The

:03:16. > :03:20.26-year-old from barking made little secret of his sympathy for so-called

:03:21. > :03:30.Islamic State. Here he is praying by an Islamist flag used by IS. This is

:03:31. > :03:33.the home of Khuram Butt. Blue tarp of the police forensic team there.

:03:34. > :03:38.There have been three terrorist attacks on Britain in the last three

:03:39. > :03:44.months. Westminster bridge, the attacker, there were few clues to

:03:45. > :03:51.the likelihood that Masood would do what he did. Salman Abedi, there

:03:52. > :03:56.were some clues, but to be fair to the police, they were fuzzy. But

:03:57. > :04:00.this man, the bad news is - there were a ton of clues that he was a

:04:01. > :04:05.potential jihadi suspect. Newsnight spoke to his neighbours who, off cam

:04:06. > :04:10.ra, told us he was well known locally for rebuking Muslim women

:04:11. > :04:13.who didn't wear hijabs and for inviting non-Muslim children to join

:04:14. > :04:18.the faith. This man knew him as a neighbour. It's really sad to know

:04:19. > :04:25.what happened, it's really like honestly really sad. I am just

:04:26. > :04:28.feeling like he might be being used by someone or brainwashed by

:04:29. > :04:33.someone. Two witnesses told us Khuram Butt had prayed at this

:04:34. > :04:39.mosque. Hello, hi, from BBC Newsnight. We understand that one of

:04:40. > :04:48.the attackers at London Bridge used to attend this mosque and apparently

:04:49. > :04:53.came here on Friday, is that right? Well, I never come on Friday here. I

:04:54. > :04:57.don't know nothing I can't tell you anything about that. There are

:04:58. > :05:01.mosques in the East End which have hosted extremist preachers in the

:05:02. > :05:06.past. But this isn't one of them. They commit these atrocities in the

:05:07. > :05:12.name of Islam. Our Koran doesn't allow people to do or act against

:05:13. > :05:18.humanity or killing or any kind of terrorism. It is very clear. Khuram

:05:19. > :05:22.Butt had been a member of Al-Muhajiroun an Islamist extremist

:05:23. > :05:27.group banned in 2005, but so well penetrated by the police and

:05:28. > :05:31.Security Services that its adherents were often not seen by a great

:05:32. > :05:36.threat. After Saturday night, that assumption no longer stands. Khuram

:05:37. > :05:40.Butt was a member of Al-Muhajiroun going back some years. I was one of

:05:41. > :05:44.the chief radicalisers and recruiters for Al-Qaeda here in the

:05:45. > :05:48.United States from approximately 2007 till my arrest in 2011. I would

:05:49. > :05:54.say he appeared on our radar rather late but was an active member inside

:05:55. > :05:59.of our communication platform services that we offered to those we

:06:00. > :06:04.were attempting to radicalise. He was an administrator in a

:06:05. > :06:08.pro-Al-Muhajiroun room. I had intimate connection was him. We

:06:09. > :06:13.would frequently speak before they would. Add an administrator he would

:06:14. > :06:18.have to communicate with me about the length of my speeches, the

:06:19. > :06:23.couldn't tent of my speeches and how they might blend with the preachers

:06:24. > :06:25.that would follow -- content. Questions for the Muslim community

:06:26. > :06:30.but also for the police and for the people who work in the building

:06:31. > :06:33.behind me. MI5. It's their job to gather intelligence so that they can

:06:34. > :06:40.protect us. And clearly, they've failed. There were a lot of red

:06:41. > :06:47.flags to the ring leader of the London Bridge attacks. But, to be

:06:48. > :06:52.fair, their long list of potential jihadi suspects has got 23,000 names

:06:53. > :07:00.on it. The short list 3,000 names on it. Have they failed, yes. Were they

:07:01. > :07:05.bound to fail? The answer to that is also, regrettably, yes. More than a

:07:06. > :07:09.dozen jihadi plots in Britain have been thwarted in the last few years.

:07:10. > :07:14.But in the past three months, something has shifted. The people

:07:15. > :07:20.making all the running are those who create terror. The Met confirmed

:07:21. > :07:23.tonight that all of the 12 people they arrested in the wake of the

:07:24. > :07:28.attack have been released without charge. But the investigation into

:07:29. > :07:29.the attackers and their associates carries on.

:07:30. > :07:31.Our correspondent Richard Watson has covered Islamist extremists

:07:32. > :07:42.The name Al-Muhajiroun is not unfamiliar to you, what is the

:07:43. > :07:47.significance of the man's link to that? It's very significant, think

:07:48. > :07:51.I. I remember I started investigating Al-Muhajiroun in 2000,

:07:52. > :07:56.before 9/11. I was filming in East London 2004 where they celebrated

:07:57. > :07:58.the 9/11 attacks as being the magnificent night in terror. They

:07:59. > :08:03.are very dangerous. They have dangerous views. In the early 2000s

:08:04. > :08:07.they were dismissed as fools. I remember speaking to a member of the

:08:08. > :08:12.joint intelligence committee at the time and he told me that there was a

:08:13. > :08:18.failure of imagination about the consequences of harbouring these

:08:19. > :08:23.kind of extremists in our society. What are the Security Services

:08:24. > :08:28.saying today? Well, I spoke to a security source tonight and

:08:29. > :08:34.interestingly, he didn't really say that they were avenue resources or

:08:35. > :08:38.new laws. Very worried about speaking about anything too firm in

:08:39. > :08:42.the election week of course, but I got the distinct impression that the

:08:43. > :08:46.resources are not the major issue. There are two major issues about

:08:47. > :08:51.softer ways of approaching this problem. Number one - do you attack

:08:52. > :08:55.the ideology as the Prime Minister, Theresa May, has been suggesting? Or

:08:56. > :09:01.do you look for longer term solutions giving young people who

:09:02. > :09:03.are potentially drawn down this path alternative avenues and alternative

:09:04. > :09:06.sense of belonging to bring society? Thank you very much.

:09:07. > :09:08.Normally, the political rule is that right-wing parties score more highly

:09:09. > :09:12.with the public on security issues than left-wing parties.

:09:13. > :09:15.But it is a measure of how strange politics is at the moment,

:09:16. > :09:18.that much of today has seen the Conservatives on the defensive

:09:19. > :09:21.over whether Theresa May as Home Secretary had allowed cuts

:09:22. > :09:26.There was a vigil in London this evening,

:09:27. > :09:28.just next to City Hall, at which the mayor,

:09:29. > :09:33.Just after that event, I asked him if resources

:09:34. > :09:36.are an issue for the fight against terror.

:09:37. > :09:45.Well, I've been saying now for months, in fact

:09:46. > :09:48.since I first became the mayor, that we need more

:09:49. > :09:53.That over the last seven years the Met police

:09:54. > :09:59.As a result, the Met police has had to reduce staff, 3,000 staff lost,

:10:00. > :10:01.closed police stations, and over the course of the next

:10:02. > :10:04.three years, there are plans to cut a further ?400 million

:10:05. > :10:10.There are plans to change the police funding formula which means

:10:11. > :10:14.we could lose up to another several million pounds and it's

:10:15. > :10:21.We are a global city, we know we are a target for the terrorists,

:10:22. > :10:24.we've got to do all that we can to keep our city safe.

:10:25. > :10:28.And one of the first things I did as mayor was to approve

:10:29. > :10:34.I don't believe all our officers should be armed but I do believe

:10:35. > :10:38.in having a decent number of highly trained armed officers,

:10:39. > :10:42.to make sure they can respond quickly and swiftly as they did

:10:43. > :10:47.And are you finding Theresa May is receptive of that message?

:10:48. > :10:50.Well, look I've been lobbying unsuccessfully

:10:51. > :10:53.for the last 13 months, and it's really important

:10:54. > :10:57.that the government of the day recognises we need more resources

:10:58. > :11:03.And my job as the Mayor of London, whose primary focus has to be

:11:04. > :11:06.the security of London, I'm not going to be afraid

:11:07. > :11:09.of saying, we are not getting the resources we need.

:11:10. > :11:12.We have lost resources over the last seven years and the current

:11:13. > :11:15.government's plans for the next three years are further

:11:16. > :11:21.That will have an impact on London, whether it's officers lost,

:11:22. > :11:23.whether it's other resources being lost, and I'll tell you this.

:11:24. > :11:26.I speak to the experts regularly and the experts tell me one

:11:27. > :11:29.of the best ways to keep us safe is policing by consent.

:11:30. > :11:33.Members of the public having confidence in the police to give

:11:34. > :11:37.them intelligence about people they are worried about.

:11:38. > :11:41.People who are dodgy, people who have become radicalised.

:11:42. > :11:43.And that's why I've restored neighbourhood policing.

:11:44. > :11:47.We can only do that with resources, you know, more bobbies on the beat

:11:48. > :11:59.Sadiq Khan the Mayor of London speaking to me earlier.

:12:00. > :12:01.Police resources are an issue, but, of course, anti-terror

:12:02. > :12:05.The powers of the security forces to shoot

:12:06. > :12:08.to kill, for example, or listen in on private conversations.

:12:09. > :12:10.On these, the Tories feel themselves on firmer ground.

:12:11. > :12:12.The election campaign was back in full swing today,

:12:13. > :12:22.and Nick Watt looks at how terror has affected it.

:12:23. > :12:30.Even the most finely tuned election campaign can hit unexpected bumps.

:12:31. > :12:35.Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are finding that their past is catching

:12:36. > :12:39.up with them, as they seek to persuade voters they are best placed

:12:40. > :12:45.to deal with terrorism. So, please, for your sake and for the thousands

:12:46. > :12:49.of police officers who work so hard every day, this crying wolf has to

:12:50. > :12:53.stop. The Prime Minister's claim that she is the strongest guardian

:12:54. > :12:58.of the nation's security sits uncomfortably next to the cut in

:12:59. > :13:02.police officers during her time as Home Secretary. We have a debate

:13:03. > :13:06.about anti-terror legislation in Parliament the other day. Now I've

:13:07. > :13:11.been involved in opposing anti-terror legislation ever since I

:13:12. > :13:14.first went into Parliament in 1983. And the claim by the Labour leader

:13:15. > :13:18.that he would consider whatever proposals the police and Security

:13:19. > :13:28.Services bring forward doesn't quite chime with his record as a

:13:29. > :13:33.backbenchers. Backbenchers this was meant to be the Brexit election.

:13:34. > :13:37.Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn both believe the attacks in Manchester

:13:38. > :13:40.and here at London Bridge highlight weaknesses in their opponent. But

:13:41. > :13:44.there are also pit falls for the two leaders. The Prime Minister found

:13:45. > :13:48.herself under strong pressure today over police numbers. Belt tightening

:13:49. > :13:55.by the coalition Government saw police numbers fall by around 20,000

:13:56. > :13:59.between 2010 and 2015. Theresa May claimed today there will be an

:14:00. > :14:03.uplift in the number of armed police officers, but the number of armed

:14:04. > :14:10.police officers fell from around 7,000 in 2010 to just over 5,500 in

:14:11. > :14:18.2016. The Government committed last year to recruit an extra 1500 by

:14:19. > :14:23.20201 -- 2021. Our demands placed on the Police Service is changing. We

:14:24. > :14:28.are becoming more responsive rather than looking for things, rather than

:14:29. > :14:30.being proactive in our delivery to the public and engaging with the

:14:31. > :14:35.public. We can't continue to do that. That's Fire Service policing.

:14:36. > :14:39.We need to engage more with our communities. We need to ensure that

:14:40. > :14:42.the intelligence coming from them is able to be acted upon. Then there

:14:43. > :14:47.are questions about the Prime Minister's claim that Britain has

:14:48. > :14:52.been too tolerant of extremism when she said - enough is enough. You've

:14:53. > :14:56.said that the time has come to tackle not just violent extremism

:14:57. > :15:01.but extremist ideology, does that mean that you've changed your mind.

:15:02. > :15:06.You'll remember you had a public row with Michael Gove in 2014 when he

:15:07. > :15:11.said you and your officials were prepared to tackle violent extremism

:15:12. > :15:15.but not extremist ideology. I've been very, very clear throughout

:15:16. > :15:19.that it wasn't just about violent extremism, it was about extremism.

:15:20. > :15:22.That's why, when I was Home Secretary, we introduced the

:15:23. > :15:26.counterextremism strategy. You can look back. I've made various

:15:27. > :15:30.speeches over the years, where I have said we do need to deal with

:15:31. > :15:36.extremism not just the violent extremism. I wasn't, to be frank,

:15:37. > :15:41.what sure she meant by enough is enough. Given that she has been in

:15:42. > :15:45.Central Command in this area for seven years. A lot of work has gone

:15:46. > :15:49.on. Our security and intelligence services an the police work really

:15:50. > :15:52.hard. We need to reflect and wait to see whether this is a resources

:15:53. > :15:55.issue or intelligence issue or analysis issue. Clearly three

:15:56. > :16:01.incidents in three months is deep cause for concern.

:16:02. > :16:07.times Keir Starmer was speaking at a meeting of unions representing

:16:08. > :16:12.emergency workers who condemned the cut in police numbers, critics might

:16:13. > :16:16.say to deflect attention from Jeremy Corbyn 's voting record opposing

:16:17. > :16:21.anti-terror legislation. The sombre atmosphere across the country was

:16:22. > :16:27.reflected in a vigil in London this evening. Never before has Britain

:16:28. > :16:31.seen two major terror attacks in an election campaign, whatever the

:16:32. > :16:33.result, the impact of these past two weeks will be felt for many years to

:16:34. > :16:45.come. There is another political dimension

:16:46. > :16:50.to this involving the United States and Donald Trump and his reaction to

:16:51. > :16:55.the tragedy on Saturday. Tell us how it played out. Donald Trump has

:16:56. > :16:59.criticised Sadiq Khan after appearing to misunderstand the clear

:17:00. > :17:04.statement from the London Mayor on Sunday that Londoners should not be

:17:05. > :17:08.alarmed by the increased police presence in the city after the

:17:09. > :17:13.London Bridge attack. In a tweet on Sunday that we should be able to

:17:14. > :17:15.see, you see that the president suggested that Sadiq Khan was saying

:17:16. > :17:35.that people should not be alarmed by terrorism. Sadiq Khan's

:17:36. > :17:37.office made it clear that the president had completely distorted

:17:38. > :17:40.his remarks. But then the president came back today with another tweet

:17:41. > :17:42.and he accuses the mayor of making a pathetic excuse after his remarks on

:17:43. > :17:45.the no reason to be alarmed statement. M S M means mainstream

:17:46. > :17:48.media. What has been the reaction. One minister said this, President

:17:49. > :17:51.Trump has dug himself a whole but is not magnanimous enough to dig

:17:52. > :17:54.himself out of it. And this does raise interesting questions about

:17:55. > :18:01.the proposed state visit by Donald Trump to this country. Remember that

:18:02. > :18:04.Theresa May quick off the mark may be off in January. Tonight on

:18:05. > :18:09.Channel 4 News Sadiq Khan said that state visit should not go ahead. And

:18:10. > :18:14.interestingly it is becoming pretty clear in Whitehall that that state

:18:15. > :18:20.visit is not likely to happen any time soon. One Whitehall source told

:18:21. > :18:25.me that for the last few months the visit has been in the "Pretty long

:18:26. > :18:28.and getting longer grass". It appears the president is concerned

:18:29. > :18:32.about the opposition he is likely to meet in this country and they will

:18:33. > :18:36.be few tears shed in Whitehall if it doesn't happen. I get the impression

:18:37. > :18:41.that were Jeremy Corbyn to become Prime Minister on Friday I would not

:18:42. > :18:45.be surprised if he cancelled that visit. , Nick, thank you very much.

:18:46. > :18:47.I spoke a little earlier about this to Sebastian Gorka,

:18:48. > :18:51.one of President Trump's national security advisors.

:18:52. > :18:59.Why was the president twitting criticism of a London Mayor at this

:19:00. > :19:04.particular time? Yeah. Let's talk about that for a moment. But if this

:19:05. > :19:08.is going to be another discussion about a tweet for six minutes it is

:19:09. > :19:13.a game something unseemly. The president was making a very valid

:19:14. > :19:20.point that we have to jettison political correctness, we have to

:19:21. > :19:31.apply honesty to the threat, and saying it is just business as usual,

:19:32. > :19:33.don't worry about a thing, a Pollyanna-iah attitude to a thread

:19:34. > :19:39.that has killed hundreds of people in Europe and maimed over 700 has to

:19:40. > :19:45.be dealt with honestly. OK, I see that but then, is it not the right

:19:46. > :19:47.response for people to get together in a constructive mindset and say

:19:48. > :19:55.nice things and useful things, rather than just, you know,

:19:56. > :20:05."Pathetic excuse by London Mayor Sadiq Khan". This is the bit I don't

:20:06. > :20:09.understand. In what way is the tweet, and I know it is just a

:20:10. > :20:14.tweet, in what way is it helpful to call it a pathetic excuse. I will

:20:15. > :20:17.talk about this tweet but it would be more helpful for British viewers

:20:18. > :20:23.and the alliance between the UK and the US to talk about policy issues

:20:24. > :20:27.and not tweets. The point is we will not come together adequately to the

:20:28. > :20:33.task in hand unless people talk honestly about the threat to London,

:20:34. > :20:37.the threat to Washington, the threat to DC, the threat to Paris, and that

:20:38. > :20:44.is what the president was writing about. And that is unimportant,

:20:45. > :20:49.substantive point, not just a tweet. But your point is that other people

:20:50. > :20:54.are talking dishonestly about it. The Mayor of London, or the

:20:55. > :20:59.authority. Cool in what way, other people that you are focused on,

:21:00. > :21:04.talking dishonestly about the threat --, in what way? Those people who

:21:05. > :21:11.spin fabulist fantasies and do not deal with the threat at hand. Is

:21:12. > :21:15.Sadiq Khan one of these people? If his statements are meant to deny the

:21:16. > :21:20.reality of the thread then he could be but I'm not going to talk to him,

:21:21. > :21:31.you should ask yourself. I know that his answer is that he is not. I

:21:32. > :21:34.sense your frustration that you were asked about your boss's tweet. I

:21:35. > :21:37.know that in other interviews, you have said, it is just a tweet, stop

:21:38. > :21:41.banging on about it. It is not policy. Is it useful to have him

:21:42. > :21:46.twitting random thoughts, getting into little arguments? If it is not

:21:47. > :21:50.policy, how is it getting in the way of clarity of message. Here I am,

:21:51. > :21:56.confused, I was thinking he was being critical of someone when he

:21:57. > :21:59.says something like "Pathetic excuse of London Mayor". When you put me

:22:00. > :22:05.right and explained that he was not being critical, he does not even

:22:06. > :22:11.know what the London Mayor's policies are. What is the meaning of

:22:12. > :22:17.this tweet of policy? I can't help you. That is how the businessman who

:22:18. > :22:21.has never held elected office won the election, he out trounced the

:22:22. > :22:25.mainstream liberal left-wing media. That is the value of Twitter. Not

:22:26. > :22:29.everything is about policy, some things about strategic

:22:30. > :22:35.communication. As is the Twitter account that the president has. Got

:22:36. > :22:39.it. For reasons that you will probably not understand or want to

:22:40. > :22:42.hear many people are being critical of President Trump for picking an

:22:43. > :22:48.argument with the Mayor of London at a time when the city is facing

:22:49. > :22:59.attack. And you are talking for them. I'm summarising that I have

:23:00. > :23:01.picked up that quite a few people are suggesting in political circles

:23:02. > :23:04.that it would be inappropriate for President Trump to have a state

:23:05. > :23:07.visit to the UK. Do you think he will be bothered of the state visit

:23:08. > :23:13.is cancelled or called of at least time being? If anybody thinks that a

:23:14. > :23:16.state visit is held hostage to Twitter then they have no

:23:17. > :23:21.understanding of the relationship between London and Washington. And

:23:22. > :23:26.that is a sad, sad day for anybody who thinks that. So you think that

:23:27. > :23:30.all this talk about, oh dear, we had better not have a state visit, we

:23:31. > :23:36.shouldn't have a state visit, is silly talk and the state visit will

:23:37. > :23:40.happen, in your field. I think, if you ask Theresa May, if you ask the

:23:41. > :23:45.people I work without your embassy, who come here regularly to talk to

:23:46. > :23:49.us, I think they will have a very different answer of the importance

:23:50. > :23:54.of a visit between two of the closest democracies in the world

:23:55. > :23:58.today. Sebastian Coe Walker, not his first outing this programme.

:23:59. > :24:06.We can continue the conversation with Chuka Umunna, who was a member

:24:07. > :24:09.of the Home Affairs Committee, and on the line from Wakefield,

:24:10. > :24:11.we're joined by Baroness Warsi, former Minister for Faith

:24:12. > :24:15.Her recent book, The Enemy Within; A Tale of Muslim Britain,

:24:16. > :24:17.looks into the flaws in government rhetoric on extremism.

:24:18. > :24:23.Perhaps I can start with you both on the state visit thing, I'm not going

:24:24. > :24:28.to get stuck on Trump, Baroness Warsi, do you think that the state

:24:29. > :24:33.visit should be off? My views on this visit are already on record. I

:24:34. > :24:37.feel that a state visit is an honour of the highest order where we lay

:24:38. > :24:42.out the red carpet, pomp and ceremony, Her Majesty hosts, and I

:24:43. > :24:47.think that for a man, who long before he started insulting London's

:24:48. > :24:51.mayor showed disdain for women and had little respect for minorities,

:24:52. > :24:55.black people, ex-guns, Latinos, little regard for the LGBT

:24:56. > :24:59.community. He mocked the disabled and when London Ken under attack he

:25:00. > :25:03.thought the best way to help us to attack the Maher of London. His

:25:04. > :25:06.record is before us and I think that what Nick said before about the

:25:07. > :25:11.visit being kicked into the long grass is best for now. I think we

:25:12. > :25:16.should keep kicking it into the long grass. Chuka Umunna, if Corbyn wins

:25:17. > :25:22.there will not be a Trump state visit, Willow, riding in the

:25:23. > :25:32.carriage together. There is not a state visit. I agree with every word

:25:33. > :25:36.that Saida just said and I think a period of silence from him would be

:25:37. > :25:41.welcome. And defeat cancer, given his unpopularity, just think about

:25:42. > :25:45.the huge police resource that will go into manning that state visit.

:25:46. > :25:49.With the threat level as it is at the moment I would much rather that

:25:50. > :25:54.our police and security services were focused on some of the

:25:55. > :25:59.challenges that we have here, giving our country safe than frankly being

:26:00. > :26:05.distracted by a president who as Saida has shown is perhaps one of

:26:06. > :26:09.the most divisive politicians in the Western world. And right now we need

:26:10. > :26:15.to be coming together. Lets go into enough is enough and what you

:26:16. > :26:20.understand by that. Saida Warsi, what do you understand by enough is

:26:21. > :26:24.enough and to support it because some interpreted as the extension of

:26:25. > :26:28.a kind of antipathy towards people with extreme views who are not

:26:29. > :26:35.violent. They are not killing people. Do you think it is right to

:26:36. > :26:39.start turning attention to them? I think that what Theresa said in her

:26:40. > :26:43.statement alongside enough is enough was that there was four specific

:26:44. > :26:49.areas she wanted to look at a game which included closing down a space

:26:50. > :26:53.online as well as off-line, revisiting policies on segregation,

:26:54. > :26:58.to tackle segregation and separation, but the strongest point

:26:59. > :27:03.she made is that, in a new age where we have a new emerging threat, we

:27:04. > :27:07.are going to reveal our counterterrorism strategy. And that

:27:08. > :27:11.includes how we prepare for an attack, how we pursue extremists,

:27:12. > :27:17.how we protect the United Kingdom and how we prevent people from

:27:18. > :27:21.becoming terrorists. You are happy with, if, and most would interpret

:27:22. > :27:25.it this way, if it became government policy that we need to close down

:27:26. > :27:29.some of the people who have been closer to the jihadists but not

:27:30. > :27:34.actually jihadists. Would you say that is a good thing, is that what

:27:35. > :27:41.we need to do or is that misguided? We have about 20-23,000 people of

:27:42. > :27:44.interest. And I have no concerns whatsoever if we look again as to

:27:45. > :27:50.how we make sure that we are watching these people, we look again

:27:51. > :27:54.at the regime that succeeded the control orders, to see if we can use

:27:55. > :27:58.them in a different way, whether we can change the conditions around

:27:59. > :28:03.them, so I have no issues with that. I think the concern I have this in

:28:04. > :28:10.relation to the Prevent strategy. Which up until now has had huge

:28:11. > :28:14.concerns around it. We've had people like the George Soros foundation,

:28:15. > :28:19.open society, writes what, led by Helena Kennedy QC, we had ex-police

:28:20. > :28:23.officers, intelligence services, even the government is an

:28:24. > :28:27.independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson, say it

:28:28. > :28:32.is time for a review of Prevent. And I hope the government does generally

:28:33. > :28:37.review Prevent as part of its review of the strategy. Chuka Umunna, I

:28:38. > :28:40.want to get to the heart of the issue of how harsh we should be on

:28:41. > :28:45.people whose views are mainstream the two are not jihadists. Are they

:28:46. > :28:52.the gateway to jihadism? Does the gate needs to be shot or not? One of

:28:53. > :28:56.the challenges for police and security is that if they intervene

:28:57. > :29:01.too soon, they may not get the information as to what has been

:29:02. > :29:04.planned, which may come about but I have to say, in response to the

:29:05. > :29:08.Prime Minister 's speech she talks as if she has not been in charge of

:29:09. > :29:12.the Home Office for the past few years. I think there are a number of

:29:13. > :29:16.things. Police resourcing is definitely an issue. All the

:29:17. > :29:18.evidence we've taken on the home affairs select committee points to

:29:19. > :29:31.local neighbourhood policing being the most valuable source of

:29:32. > :29:34.intelligence in thwarting... Police jobs that have been cut, 20,000 down

:29:35. > :29:36.and you're putting 10,000 back, that points to your agreeing with half

:29:37. > :29:39.the cuts made. In an ideal world you'd have to get them up higher but

:29:40. > :29:45.you'd have to talk to the Home Office. That's definitely an issue.

:29:46. > :29:50.I agree with Saida on Prevent. That's a real problem. I remember

:29:51. > :29:53.taking evidence from some young people in Bradford. There is a real

:29:54. > :29:58.problem in the way it operates. You have a large group of young Muslim

:29:59. > :30:04.people who feel this has turned them into a suspect community and they

:30:05. > :30:07.are being asked to explain and apologise for having nothing to do

:30:08. > :30:12.frankly with Islamic teaching whatsoever. And on the cyber side of

:30:13. > :30:18.things, there were much tighter controls as to what people subject

:30:19. > :30:23.to control orders could do as opposed to the successive roles. And

:30:24. > :30:28.I disagreed with control orders being done away with that's

:30:29. > :30:33.definitely the social media companies, there seems to be so much

:30:34. > :30:40.modern in respect to them and in the end, if they are not prepared to

:30:41. > :30:43.spend the money is then frankly government and force them to pay for

:30:44. > :30:46.that much in the way that football clubs are forced to contribute to

:30:47. > :30:51.policing, because we cannot just leave them to police themselves if

:30:52. > :30:54.it is not working. We need to stop but you have both raised so many

:30:55. > :30:57.issues, thank you both very much indeed.

:30:58. > :30:59.We've become depressingly familiar with the rituals of terror:

:31:00. > :31:01.after the condemnations and messages of sympathy, the determined

:31:02. > :31:04.insistence that we will not let such attacks change the way we live.

:31:05. > :31:07.And by yesterday morning, barely 36 hours after Saturday's carnage,

:31:08. > :31:09.a semblance of normality had returned to London Bridge,

:31:10. > :31:11.with thousands of commuters streaming across the river

:31:12. > :31:17.But is the reassuring picture of a city keeping calm

:31:18. > :31:30.Bridges, the arteries of a city, the things that functioning societies

:31:31. > :31:34.build between communities. They're vital and they're vulnerable. The

:31:35. > :31:38.van was zig zagging along the pavement. It looked like he was

:31:39. > :31:45.aiming, from my opinion, aiming for groups of people. Keep moving guys.

:31:46. > :31:49.We saw an injured person on the pavement on the left-hand side and a

:31:50. > :31:52.little bit further, an injured person on the road. We had arrived

:31:53. > :31:57.in the aftermath of a terrorist attack. This taxi driver pulled up,

:31:58. > :32:02.swerved towards me and screamed, "Please, run, you've got to run,

:32:03. > :32:07.now, get back, get back. " I turned around and saw a man with a huge

:32:08. > :32:12.blade. I ran as fast as I comfort -- as I could. I looked up to see a guy

:32:13. > :32:16.leaving the restaurant next to where we were. He was holding his chest or

:32:17. > :32:22.neck. He was covered in blood. He was staggering through the market.

:32:23. > :32:28.This morning, less than 36 hours later, London Bridge was back open,

:32:29. > :32:33.the city back at work. There's something so reassuring about this.

:32:34. > :32:38.We feel comforted by what looks like an almost immediate return to

:32:39. > :32:44.normality, even if it is the Monday morning commute. It gives us a

:32:45. > :32:55.feeling that no matter how horrific, terror cannot fundamentally change

:32:56. > :33:00.our society. But in the shadow of you area market -- borough market,

:33:01. > :33:05.nothing feels norm. It's tough with children, when you're dropping them

:33:06. > :33:08.at school, a road away, you don't feel necessarily safe doing, that

:33:09. > :33:12.but life has to go on. It makes me angry. At the moment I feel quite

:33:13. > :33:17.numb. Obviously having children, who we have to discuss these things

:33:18. > :33:21.with, who have no understanding of what's happening. They are just

:33:22. > :33:25.like, why would people do that mummy? How do you explain that to

:33:26. > :33:32.your kids? You just have to state facts. Richard Angel, who runs a

:33:33. > :33:40.centre left think-tank, was in a restaurant nearby when one of the

:33:41. > :33:44.attackers burst in. It wasn't until we were evacuated, avoiding the

:33:45. > :33:48.shoes, dropped wallets, blood, victims, paramedics, police

:33:49. > :33:51.officers, and we got outside the cordoned off area and that sense of

:33:52. > :33:55.relief, going round counting all your friends were there. I made eye

:33:56. > :33:58.contact with a woman on the next table who we had a silent but strong

:33:59. > :34:03.bond with throughout the whole thing. Make sure the pregnant lady

:34:04. > :34:07.was in a safe place. Then we were told we weren't safe and we had to

:34:08. > :34:10.move again. For those caught up in the attacks especially there is a

:34:11. > :34:16.tension between the question of what is to be done and the urge to carry

:34:17. > :34:20.on as usual. Of course, we should fund our Secret Services and the

:34:21. > :34:23.defence and the police and others who deal with this stuff and there's

:34:24. > :34:28.very many problems out there that can be dealt with. Of course,

:34:29. > :34:34.there's things we should do about international funding of mosques and

:34:35. > :34:37.sending text books that are inappropriate to madrassas and

:34:38. > :34:42.schools and various other things. But I refuse to give these people a

:34:43. > :34:45.victory. I think most British people, the Londoners and the

:34:46. > :34:52.Mancunians who have led a beautiful response to such hate want to do the

:34:53. > :34:56.same. The morning after, the Sunday, community leaders gathered to do

:34:57. > :35:00.what community leaders do, try to rebuild bridges. Leaders of the

:35:01. > :35:03.local mosque found themselves in the familiar position of having to

:35:04. > :35:09.distance themselves from an atrocity they had nothing to do with, of

:35:10. > :35:15.having to explain what Islam is not. Islam means peace. It's got nothing

:35:16. > :35:20.to do with these kind of heinous, barbaric actions. It's got nothing

:35:21. > :35:24.to do with Islam. I think everyone would agree that's the kind of thing

:35:25. > :35:27.people ought to be saying in the aftermath of what's just happened.

:35:28. > :35:31.There's the fact that constantly these attacks are done in the name

:35:32. > :35:38.of Islam. How do you prevent that view from taking hold? Your

:35:39. > :35:45.question, in the name of Islam, I can't see or recognise how that is

:35:46. > :35:48.the case. This is a mixed neighbourhood, tourists and City

:35:49. > :35:51.workers rub shoulders with working-class communities from

:35:52. > :35:56.different backgrounds. In private, not everyone has responded to the

:35:57. > :36:03.attacks with a message of unity. I just spoke to one lady who said,

:36:04. > :36:07."I'd do a Trump, kick them all out." Another gentleman said to me, we're

:36:08. > :36:11.at breaking point. We need to look after our own. These may not be the

:36:12. > :36:14.majority opinions, they are not the kind of opinions people want to

:36:15. > :36:18.express in front of the television cameras but they are out there. Long

:36:19. > :36:23.before the perpetrators were identified this evening, assumptions

:36:24. > :36:28.were made. Will arrived on London Bridge moments after the attackers

:36:29. > :36:34.struck. Really quickly everyone just, everyone seemed to know what

:36:35. > :36:39.it was. And knew what sort of a situation they were in. Each attack

:36:40. > :36:42.carried out in the name of Islam, however perverted a version,

:36:43. > :36:47.contributes to a corrosive picture. I don't think anyone that was there

:36:48. > :36:53.on Saturday night caught up in it, the victims, the victims' families,

:36:54. > :37:00.the emergency services, I don't think anyone will be in any doubt as

:37:01. > :37:03.to why these people carried out the attack and what ideology would have

:37:04. > :37:07.inspired them to do it. I don't really think we're having an honest

:37:08. > :37:11.debate when the focus is on whether there have been too many cuts to the

:37:12. > :37:14.emergency services and that kind of thing. As far as I could see, that

:37:15. > :37:20.response was flawless on Saturday night. On London's other bridges,

:37:21. > :37:23.protective barriers went up overnight, at Westminster, they know

:37:24. > :37:28.what damage can be done with just a vehicle and a knife. They know too

:37:29. > :37:30.that security measures alone are not enough to keep the country safe or

:37:31. > :37:34.united. As we heard earlier,

:37:35. > :37:36.the Prime Minister has been talking tough about the need

:37:37. > :37:39.for a new response to terror. But how does society balance

:37:40. > :37:41.the need for security Henna Rai founded the Women

:37:42. > :37:48.Against Radicalisation Network and Anas Altikriti is CEO of

:37:49. > :37:59.think-tank the Cordoba Foundation. Good evening to you both. I really

:38:00. > :38:06.want to focus on these people who are not violent, but who were the

:38:07. > :38:10.kind of people that were hanging around in the ambience of one of the

:38:11. > :38:14.killers we know, what do you think our attitude should be to that,

:38:15. > :38:21.extreme positions non-violent? It's a difficult question. We need to

:38:22. > :38:26.address the issues that are contributing towards these people

:38:27. > :38:30.who are essentially non-violent to begin with, but then move on to do

:38:31. > :38:33.violent acts later on. What is the actual cause behind it? And what

:38:34. > :38:38.that root cause it, how we can tackle that. What's your gut

:38:39. > :38:45.instinct? Do you think we just stand by while people express views that

:38:46. > :38:50.are very anti-Western, very extreme, maybe even flirting with Isis, but

:38:51. > :38:55.who seem to show no sign of actually wanting to attack us or kill us? If

:38:56. > :39:00.that was the solution to it, I would never have founded my organisation,

:39:01. > :39:05.which was in response to such views. The other issue is we don't address

:39:06. > :39:10.the fact that there is an ideology that people do buy into here. There

:39:11. > :39:13.is an ideology. Absolutely. Sorry, you think the ideology does relate

:39:14. > :39:18.to what the killers bind to? Of course. Because whatever the

:39:19. > :39:22.grievances or the issues initially are, there is an ultimate ideology

:39:23. > :39:25.that they do buy into. We need to address this and talk about the

:39:26. > :39:30.elephant in the room. Is that correct, do you think? I always have

:39:31. > :39:35.a problem when politicians start talking about ideology. I don't

:39:36. > :39:39.think its their remit. I don't think they're good at it. If anything, I

:39:40. > :39:45.think they make things worse. They don't understand it. The nature of

:39:46. > :39:49.politics is about short-termism. You can't deal with understanding,

:39:50. > :39:53.grapple with and try to counter or reform ideology within the term of

:39:54. > :39:56.any particular Government. I would, the first thing I think the

:39:57. > :40:00.Government needs to do is stay away from ideology. The other thing - I'm

:40:01. > :40:07.sorry, that's a very big thing to say. It is. There are people who are

:40:08. > :40:11.promoting hate. Out of those groups come people who kill lots of people.

:40:12. > :40:15.I would argue that ideas are best fought with ideas. They're not

:40:16. > :40:22.fought with either bullets or security or ratting on. Simply

:40:23. > :40:26.you're giving credence, longevity, credibility to those who have what

:40:27. > :40:32.is essentially very minor ideas outside the mainstream community. It

:40:33. > :40:35.is these ideas that are causing them to actually turn around and

:40:36. > :40:42.perpetrate - What are you talking about, so we're specific. We're

:40:43. > :40:47.talking about the Islamist ideology that they subscribe to, anti-Western

:40:48. > :40:52.sentiment. 99. 9% of Muslims don't subscribe to that. However the

:40:53. > :40:59.loudest voices at this moment in time are of those extremists.

:41:00. > :41:04.They're sympathisers who have a legitimate platform in the UK - Go

:41:05. > :41:08.around the mosques up and down the country and point it a particular

:41:09. > :41:14.mosque. There are many organisations who call themselves representatives

:41:15. > :41:18.of Muslims in the UK. They will subscribe to sectarianism, sympathy

:41:19. > :41:22.to extremist ideology. I would suggest that those are rejected by

:41:23. > :41:29.the mainstream. The issue is how do you deal with the small number who

:41:30. > :41:33.are not. Would your beliefs, do you fear being classed as extreme if we

:41:34. > :41:37.went down this route of saying this, would you be one of them? We have a

:41:38. > :41:41.serious problem in society today. We never thought - I mean, I'm almost

:41:42. > :41:46.50 and I've spent all my life here in Britain. We never feared ideas.

:41:47. > :41:51.We never feared people who had strange - No, but we didn't have

:41:52. > :41:54.pockets of these things that was leading to this particular problem.

:41:55. > :41:58.Of course we did. We always - no, no, we're in a particular position

:41:59. > :42:01.whereby we have what I would call almost an industry that thrives on

:42:02. > :42:07.the fact that we have these challenges. I would suggest this:

:42:08. > :42:11.Why is it that we fear those with what we call controversial ideas so

:42:12. > :42:16.much? The answer is so obvious. We are shutting down political debate.

:42:17. > :42:20.We are shutting down people expressing their views, expressing

:42:21. > :42:23.their sentiments and what is happening we are driving people, who

:42:24. > :42:26.are part of society, who want the best for their country, the best for

:42:27. > :42:30.their people, we're driving them more and more towards the extremes.

:42:31. > :42:40.That is the point. If you go after those people, and that might include

:42:41. > :42:45.him here, you may alienate another group of people and push them to the

:42:46. > :42:52.extremes. The issue that we have here is the fact that many people

:42:53. > :42:55.are now pandering to a victimhood ideology as Muslims, as part of the

:42:56. > :43:02.community, that we are being alienated. If you raise the issues

:43:03. > :43:05.of extremism and Islamism within the community, you are demonising an

:43:06. > :43:10.entire Muslim community. Whereas that is not what we're here to do.

:43:11. > :43:14.If there wasn't a problem, organisations like mine would not

:43:15. > :43:18.exist. There is a clear problem. We need to address that problem. I fear

:43:19. > :43:21.where we are at today is that anyone who speaks outside a particular

:43:22. > :43:25.boundary, which is narrowing more and more and more unfortunately, due

:43:26. > :43:28.to the politicians getting involved with trying to reform ideology,

:43:29. > :43:33.what's happening is we are classifying more and more people,

:43:34. > :43:37.who could do good, how many people amongst the people that you are

:43:38. > :43:42.working against, how many of those could have had a conversation and

:43:43. > :43:46.stopped Salman Abedi doing what he did? How many could have stopped the

:43:47. > :43:52.killers on Saturday. I don't think any of those organisations would

:43:53. > :43:55.have. Believe you me - These organisations have previously - I'm

:43:56. > :44:00.not talking about solely about organisations. Why are you hung up

:44:01. > :44:02.on individuals. Individuals are part of these organisations. Three

:44:03. > :44:08.million British Muslims care about their country and their people.

:44:09. > :44:12.Everybody knows that. They're horrified about the attacks.

:44:13. > :44:15.Unfortunately you are excludeing a big chunk of that group because they

:44:16. > :44:17.express views you don't like. We need to leave it there, I'm sorry.

:44:18. > :44:21.Points taken. Thank you very much. Tributes were being paid

:44:22. > :44:23.today to those caught up Seven people died,

:44:24. > :44:26.killed either by the van on the bridge or in the frenzied

:44:27. > :44:29.knife attacks which followed. Tonight, just one has

:44:30. > :44:32.been officially named. 30-year-old Christine Archibald,

:44:33. > :44:35.from Canada, died in the arms of her fiance, after being struck

:44:36. > :44:38.by the van. Her family paid tribute

:44:39. > :44:41.to their "beautiful loving Later, relatives of a missing London

:44:42. > :44:45.man James McMullan said they believed he was among the dead,

:44:46. > :44:49.although his body has not yet been His sister Melissa

:44:50. > :44:56.spoke at the bridge. This morning we received news

:44:57. > :44:59.from the police that my brother's bank card was found on one

:45:00. > :45:02.of the bodies from Saturday But they are unable to formally

:45:03. > :45:08.identify him until the coroner's We would like to send our

:45:09. > :45:14.condolences to the relatives and loved ones of all the people

:45:15. > :45:18.who lost their lives. Our thoughts are with

:45:19. > :45:23.them also at this time. We would like to thank

:45:24. > :45:28.all the members of the services who did their utmost to serve

:45:29. > :45:31.and protect the population of London from these deranged

:45:32. > :45:36.and deluded individuals. 36 people were still being treated

:45:37. > :45:39.in five London hospitals today. Our special correspondent

:45:40. > :45:42.Katie Razzall talked to Dr Malcolm Tunnicliff,

:45:43. > :45:45.the clinical director of emergency He raced to work as soon as he heard

:45:46. > :46:02.the attack had happened. Whilst I was driving, the major

:46:03. > :46:05.incident plan was obviously enacted and staff came from a variety of

:46:06. > :46:09.places, some were at home, somewhere out in London and I believe a number

:46:10. > :46:15.of our stuff were near the events that happened and I came straight to

:46:16. > :46:19.Kings. The first thing you say to the patients if they are conscience

:46:20. > :46:24.is, who saved, we are going to look after you, you will be fine. In the

:46:25. > :46:27.emergency department there were large numbers of patients being

:46:28. > :46:30.treated simultaneously but what struck me was the calm way in which

:46:31. > :46:34.it was done, I think people expect there to be lots of shouting and

:46:35. > :46:36.carrying on but teams are calm and focused on their patients and the

:46:37. > :47:06.care they needed to give. What kinds of injuries were stab wounds

:47:07. > :47:08.to the head, neck, chest and abdomen, a number of patients had

:47:09. > :47:11.defensive wounds as well where they had to try to protect themselves

:47:12. > :47:13.from being stabbed. Whistle a large number of stab wounds from patient

:47:14. > :47:16.Dexter who have been stabbed at the hospital but nothing on this scale

:47:17. > :47:18.has ever happened before. We saw patients who came in with blunt

:47:19. > :47:21.force trauma, being hit by a vehicle you can lose a lot of blood through

:47:22. > :47:23.multiple fractures so splinting bones first and then doing repair

:47:24. > :47:26.later on is very important. I think everyone deals with incidents like

:47:27. > :47:30.this in a different way. I talk to my family, friends, my colleagues,

:47:31. > :47:39.but perhaps most importantly is not to bottle this in. We are trained,

:47:40. > :47:44.and practice for events like this, we can manage events like this. We

:47:45. > :47:47.don't want to do it but we accept that something like this is likely

:47:48. > :47:54.to happen again. We should be rightly proud of all the stuff of

:47:55. > :47:57.the NHS, not just here at Kings but the Ambulance Services and hospitals

:47:58. > :48:02.in London and of course the police for their response to the attack.

:48:03. > :48:08..Doc Malcolm Tunnicliffe from Kings Hospital talking to Katie Razzall.

:48:09. > :48:12.It sometimes seems as if the debate about what to do in terror attacks

:48:13. > :48:18.can go around in circles and perhaps no more than in relation to the

:48:19. > :48:22.arguments about the Internet, there are questions about whether the

:48:23. > :48:25.authorities should be given key to all encrypted material which is

:48:26. > :48:30.tricky and also issues about the alleged ability of the evil to strut

:48:31. > :48:32.around the Internet with too little inhibition. Theresa May yesterday

:48:33. > :48:38.suggested more should be done to stop it so how easy is it to access

:48:39. > :48:41.extremist material online, our policy editor Chris Cook spoke to

:48:42. > :48:45.Elizabeth Cann double monitors jihadists material on the web. This

:48:46. > :48:51.week there has been a lot of focus on the web giants. Has social media

:48:52. > :48:56.in particular allowed violent hate to cover the globe? We asked an

:48:57. > :49:00.academic who follows online Islamic radicalism about whether that

:49:01. > :49:04.problem has been getting worse. You can certainly still find extremist

:49:05. > :49:09.material online but it is not as easy as it used to be. Let me give

:49:10. > :49:16.you an example. There is a video which I will not name, by a

:49:17. > :49:21.prominent militant extremist preacher, which came out recently,

:49:22. > :49:25.and just before coming here I tried to Google it, find it, watch it

:49:26. > :49:30.again on YouTube and it was not there. It had been taken down. A

:49:31. > :49:37.year or so ago, there was no way that would have been taken down, but

:49:38. > :49:40.would have been much easier to find. Accounts promoting violent extremist

:49:41. > :49:45.material using simple search terms tend to get taken down very rapidly.

:49:46. > :49:50.In the old days it used to be a badge of honour when you got your

:49:51. > :49:54.account erased or suspended. I think once that has happened maybe nine or

:49:55. > :49:59.ten times it starts to become a pain, you have to start from zero

:50:00. > :50:03.again each time, and therefore we find that militant extremists are

:50:04. > :50:10.now using other platforms. We were able to find that video on a service

:50:11. > :50:14.called Telegram. Tell me what makes Telegram useful for jihadists. The

:50:15. > :50:17.most useful thing about it is that as the name suggests, you are

:50:18. > :50:24.sending messages. Normally that works via groups in the militant

:50:25. > :50:29.jihad context so you can sign up to a group, you can join at but you

:50:30. > :50:36.cannot find that group very easily because you can't just type in and

:50:37. > :50:41.the name of group like the Islamic State or jihad. You have to know

:50:42. > :50:45.what their username is, they use address is before you can join the

:50:46. > :50:50.group. That is normally quite a complicated collection of letters

:50:51. > :50:54.and numbers that you wouldn't be able to guess. And why don't the

:50:55. > :50:59.authorities just shut down these groups in the way they have been

:51:00. > :51:04.going after these? I think it is much more difficult to shut down

:51:05. > :51:08.Telegram. Partly because it is encrypted so it is secret. So it

:51:09. > :51:12.means that we cannot see what is being sent nor can we see which

:51:13. > :51:18.individuals are downloading, say, these videos. That an important

:51:19. > :51:23.point you make because they are downloading videos. Directly from

:51:24. > :51:28.Telegram. You no longer need to use next to external sites as you would

:51:29. > :51:33.normally for longer videos and other applications like Twitter. You can

:51:34. > :51:40.do everything on Telegram. If I were a curiouser wannabe militant jihadi,

:51:41. > :51:45.I would probably find a way of getting hold of this material

:51:46. > :51:51.online. It is not as easy but with a will there is still away. It needs

:51:52. > :51:55.much greater policing. So it's not easy to stumble into violent

:51:56. > :51:56.extremist material but encrypted applications provided for those who

:51:57. > :51:59.wanted. Chris Cook. And we did ask the big technology

:52:00. > :52:10.firms to join us on the programme We have an election on Thursday, the

:52:11. > :52:15.programme will come to you from Walsall tomorrow night as polling

:52:16. > :52:18.day approaches. But from all of us forceps and out, Dutch for now, good

:52:19. > :52:29.night.