:00:00. > :00:08.The whole right side of the building was on fire,
:00:09. > :00:10.the whole thing was engulfed in flames and you could
:00:11. > :00:12.hear people screaming, "help me, help me, help me".
:00:13. > :00:16.One of the firemen said get back up to your flat and his wife said no
:00:17. > :00:19.It went up way quicker than it should do.
:00:20. > :00:24.There are mothers that have come out and lost their children.
:00:25. > :00:25.That cladding seemed to burn like paper.
:00:26. > :00:28.You could see the fire going into the house and the last
:00:29. > :00:34.There was a man who threw two of his children.
:00:35. > :00:37.The block of flats had just been covered in cladding and it
:00:38. > :00:40.Why did the escape routes get so quickly fire clogged?
:00:41. > :00:42.Every floor, it was like, bang, bang.
:00:43. > :00:44.I could see people screaming up at their window, banging,
:00:45. > :00:46."get us out, get us out" and the next thing
:00:47. > :00:51.Any work that was done during the refurbishment
:00:52. > :00:53.was completed and signed off and that is our position
:00:54. > :00:56.and that is what we'll be able to show as we go
:00:57. > :01:02.The poorest housing in one of the richest
:01:03. > :01:08.It's been a day of utter horror and disbelief at the fire in west
:01:09. > :01:11.London early this morning known to have killed, at the very least,
:01:12. > :01:15.The individual stories that have been told today of death
:01:16. > :01:20.I suspect most of us had complacently thought we'd overcome
:01:21. > :01:22.the problem of huge scale fires of this kind through building
:01:23. > :01:27.codes and regulations, alarms and fire drills.
:01:28. > :01:29.We'll discuss some specific lessons later, but Newsnight has found
:01:30. > :01:33.that the cladding used in the renovation of the building
:01:34. > :01:37.was of a type that is less fire retardant than some others and has
:01:38. > :01:38.been associated with fires elsewhere.
:01:39. > :01:42.But the fact is that this fire occurred in a building occupied
:01:43. > :01:48.Is this a case where the well-to-do in positions of power didn't care
:01:49. > :01:51.enough about the lives of the less well-off because they don't
:01:52. > :02:02.The potential that it is wilful carelessness of those in power plays
:02:03. > :02:06.into the divisions and debates that this country has been having.
:02:07. > :02:09.There is a lot to discuss but we'll start at the scene.
:02:10. > :02:11.And Emily is there, and in fact has been all day.
:02:12. > :02:26.20 hours later, the fire is still burning in the building behind me,
:02:27. > :02:32.you can perhaps see the 21st at 24th floor is still ablaze, a big enough
:02:33. > :02:36.orange in the night sky but, yes, this is my borough, where I live and
:02:37. > :02:41.for many of us, the first instinct was to try to muck in, we have been
:02:42. > :02:46.sorting through donations that have been coming to the various churches.
:02:47. > :02:51.The Westway Sports Centre, where local kids play football. And that
:02:52. > :02:56.includes the Beggan children and the camera and children, that has become
:02:57. > :03:02.the community hub, the Rugby Portobello trust has played a
:03:03. > :03:06.pivotal role in rehousing all of the residents into local hotels for the
:03:07. > :03:11.night and they have had more than 200 people coming through their door
:03:12. > :03:14.today and they have rehoused all except for around 40 and they are
:03:15. > :03:19.missing relatives and they wanted to stay closer to home. There is a
:03:20. > :03:25.large Muslim community in Grenfell Tower 's and we have seen
:03:26. > :03:29.preparations for Ramadan, the breaking of the fast, one local
:03:30. > :03:34.pizzeria is handing out free pizzas being dropped off by local residents
:03:35. > :03:38.to some of those hotels. This has been a day powered by volunteers and
:03:39. > :03:45.it has been an extraordinary response from the community. It has
:03:46. > :03:48.been quite overwhelming, Rugby Portobello said they have had
:03:49. > :03:52.hundreds of calls from people offering spare rooms for the night
:03:53. > :03:56.to try to how was residents and donations have covered all ends of
:03:57. > :04:01.the culinary spectrum. Everything from KFC to organic, you can see
:04:02. > :04:05.some of the fire trucks still trying to get through to the scene behind
:04:06. > :04:11.me. And there have been surreal elements also. I have been sorting
:04:12. > :04:18.through banks of mismatched socks and ?500 designer Stella McCartney
:04:19. > :04:22.James and those three wash bags at Wehrlein sometimes give out in
:04:23. > :04:25.business class. That perhaps takes you to the heart of what you are
:04:26. > :04:33.talking about and what you describe as a resounding thump of inequality
:04:34. > :04:38.which exists in this borough. It has never felt more stark than on a day
:04:39. > :04:44.like today. The image that we were left with was 24th floors of
:04:45. > :04:47.London's poorest people burning in their homes in one of the wealthiest
:04:48. > :04:53.places on earth and already, even when the tragedy is barely
:04:54. > :05:00.one-day-old, there is an ill concealed anger at something like
:05:01. > :05:06.this could happen right here in 2017. The Frost Report tonight comes
:05:07. > :05:07.from David Grossman. -- first report.
:05:08. > :05:11.The first call to the Fire Brigade was just before 1am.
:05:12. > :05:15.Jodi Martin was there as the first fire engine arrived.
:05:16. > :05:17.He and his friends filmed what they saw.
:05:18. > :05:19.When I got there, one fire engine was just arriving
:05:20. > :05:27.I could see people in there, I could see the flames on the other side.
:05:28. > :05:29.I went into the second floor for a bridge and then
:05:30. > :05:34.went into an apartment, into the corridors.
:05:35. > :05:37.There was an elderly couple in there and I helped them
:05:38. > :05:39.out, it was very smoky on the second floor.
:05:40. > :05:42.And as I was coming out, the Fire Brigade were coming up
:05:43. > :05:45.George Clark is an architect and TV presenter.
:05:46. > :05:52.He lives 50 yards from the tower and was woken just after 1am.
:05:53. > :05:59.I looked out the door and I honestly couldn't believe what I saw.
:06:00. > :06:03.All the way to the top was on fire on that corner.
:06:04. > :06:05.I had assumed the fire had started around the other side.
:06:06. > :06:10.Sheets and sheets of cladding and stuff falling down and on fire
:06:11. > :06:13.and then I walked around and I was screaming people, out now.
:06:14. > :06:17.I have never seen a fire spread that quickly in a building in my life.
:06:18. > :06:24.But the biggest problem was the outside.
:06:25. > :06:26.That building was re-clad last summer.
:06:27. > :06:28.In 2016 they spent ?10 million on it.
:06:29. > :06:35.I don't care what anyone says, there is no way that fire
:06:36. > :06:37.should spread that quickly on a newly refurbished building.
:06:38. > :06:45.I saw those cladding panels, the cladding on the outside
:06:46. > :06:47.and the installation was just peeling off like
:06:48. > :06:56.There is a new cladding system that has been put on the outside,
:06:57. > :06:59.like a new skim and there is an air gap, and installation behind that.
:07:00. > :07:02.To me, it just looked like that was a fantastic chimney
:07:03. > :07:06.And we were hearing the people screaming, you could see a lady
:07:07. > :07:09.holding her baby out the window, her toddler out the window.
:07:10. > :07:11.Specifically, that second from the top flat, the top one
:07:12. > :07:15.and the one underneath that, I could see a family of three
:07:16. > :07:17.in there and the smoke just got worse and worse
:07:18. > :07:24.And then they were not there any more.
:07:25. > :07:34.My partner saw someone jump and over that side I know this
:07:35. > :07:36.from what the officers were doing, someone had jumped.
:07:37. > :07:39.I did not see them jump but I saw the aftermath,
:07:40. > :07:44.I saw people hanging out the windows.
:07:45. > :07:48.Banging something against the outside of the building
:07:49. > :08:02.The kid was thrown out of the window from the eighth floor
:08:03. > :08:04.and the guy just caught him, it was amazing.
:08:05. > :08:17.Frances Dean has been looking for his sister,
:08:18. > :08:22.She called him from inside the tower.
:08:23. > :08:27.When I got here I was like, this is big.
:08:28. > :08:30.I phoned her again, I said Zeinab, you need to come
:08:31. > :08:37.The fire marshal said it was smoky, said I'm not
:08:38. > :09:03.I don't think she did. She had her slippers on. It is really painful to
:09:04. > :09:06.imagine, today, where is she? Many witnesses told us people were being
:09:07. > :09:11.told to stay put in their flats and not risk leaving the building. Some
:09:12. > :09:15.undoubtedly owe their survival to not hearing the advice. I just
:09:16. > :09:23.grabbed my children and my husband and we ran through the fire exit. We
:09:24. > :09:27.saw a woman jump, we saw people wrapped in bed sheets trying to get
:09:28. > :09:32.down and police telling them not to. Everybody was panicking, it was
:09:33. > :09:38.chaotic. That man sitting over there on the right hand side, he has spent
:09:39. > :09:46.eight hours in that building. And the look in his eyes... Hell. The
:09:47. > :09:50.stories that I have heard today from the guys who have been in that
:09:51. > :09:57.building. There is a lot of people who have died. And from what I sold
:09:58. > :10:03.watching this through the entire night, trying to help, I could not
:10:04. > :10:10.do anything... Anybody who was in that building above the 14th
:10:11. > :10:14.floor... I don't think they got out. What would have helped is there was
:10:15. > :10:17.a fire alarm, when I was in the building it was silent, I was
:10:18. > :10:24.shocked there was no fire alarm or sprinklers. I think people would
:10:25. > :10:29.have got out if there was alarm. There are plenty of questions for
:10:30. > :10:34.the council and the tenant management organisation that Brandon
:10:35. > :10:38.Block on their behalf, particularly since fire safety was raised by
:10:39. > :10:45.residents on many occasions. My understanding is concerns were
:10:46. > :10:56.looked at and officers in the TMO or the council made enquiries and felt
:10:57. > :10:59.that we had done what was necessary. The government has ordered a check
:11:00. > :11:09.on the fire safety of all similar blocks. The official death toll is
:11:10. > :11:13.12. Nobody expects it to stay there. One of the first people on the site
:11:14. > :11:20.at 3:30am was Dr Shatha Hadhram and she joins me along with Pilgrim
:11:21. > :11:25.Tucker along from the Grenfell Action Group. You could see the
:11:26. > :11:32.flames driving back from Manchester? That is correct. I basically parked
:11:33. > :11:35.my car at Paddington and I had to walk all the way from Paddington
:11:36. > :11:41.because all the roads were closed and blocked. There were a lot of
:11:42. > :11:50.paramedics trying to help evacuate the building. They opened a lot of
:11:51. > :11:53.rescue centres, six or seven rescue centres, but we only had a fewer
:11:54. > :12:01.nurses on site and I was the only doctor on site until 1030 PM. --
:12:02. > :12:06.10:30am bus stop the majority of cases were people with high blood
:12:07. > :12:10.pressure, diabetes, panic attacks. People who had come out safely? Gone
:12:11. > :12:20.to the rescue centres and were left without medicine? They left that
:12:21. > :12:25.behind so we had to call some hospitals and Saint Charles was one
:12:26. > :12:31.of the first and they came with medication and doctors and nurses
:12:32. > :12:36.and were offering help and at half past ten a lot of doctors started
:12:37. > :12:41.flowing into the place, voluntary admen and coordinators, everything
:12:42. > :12:49.was done on a voluntary basis. And you were still working when I find
:12:50. > :12:53.you at 938 and? We still have some casualties and we need to take them
:12:54. > :12:58.to evacuation centres. We heard a little bit about the Grenfell Action
:12:59. > :13:07.Group and that has been going for seven years so inevitably... We have
:13:08. > :13:14.the noise of the emergency services. Tell us what the goal was? I worked
:13:15. > :13:18.with the Grenfell Action Group and residents from Grenfell Tower over a
:13:19. > :13:23.period of many months, mainly during the summer of 2015 and they wanted
:13:24. > :13:25.to get their voices and concerns about the building heard, they were
:13:26. > :13:31.really worried about the potential fire hazard is here and there were
:13:32. > :13:35.borders being put in by the contractors, blocking doorways was
:13:36. > :13:43.the proposal, so I worked with them to help them get organised. With a
:13:44. > :13:47.contract is asking residents... The contractors and the Tenant
:13:48. > :13:51.Management Organisation said they had done a consultation and the
:13:52. > :13:56.consultation was rubbish. They had designed show flats and had shown
:13:57. > :14:00.them to the tenants and when the work started happening in the flats,
:14:01. > :14:05.the actual properties, it was nothing like the show flat. The
:14:06. > :14:10.residents asked the TMO to listen, they wrote to senior managers in the
:14:11. > :14:13.TMO and the TMO did not respond. I wrote to them on behalf of the
:14:14. > :14:18.organisation and the residents and they did not respond to us,
:14:19. > :14:22.meanwhile the residents knew... The only time they got listened to was
:14:23. > :14:27.when they shut their doors and put signs on the doors, refusing access
:14:28. > :14:30.to the flats in the contractors and protested outside the housing
:14:31. > :14:36.management offices. They signed petitions. We will hear in the
:14:37. > :14:39.coming days from the TMO and the contractors, these are allegations
:14:40. > :14:43.and obviously we will give them the right to respond to this. But your
:14:44. > :14:48.sense tonight, you have got members of your own group missing?
:14:49. > :14:58.Yes. There are women who I have tried to contact today and phone is
:14:59. > :15:04.dead, and they have not been found yet. A lot of people will remember
:15:05. > :15:13.the peace written in 2015 predicting loss of life. Just explain to us
:15:14. > :15:18.what you meant that piece. Well, Ed, the guy who wrote that piece, he was
:15:19. > :15:22.very aware, not professionally, but it was obvious that the standard of
:15:23. > :15:27.work was really shoddy and really poor. Boilers in front of front
:15:28. > :15:33.doors. Pipework, sticking inches outside the walls. There were power
:15:34. > :15:36.surges that were not looked at. When the lights in the building went
:15:37. > :15:41.dead, the fire, the emergency lighting didn't come on. And these
:15:42. > :15:45.residents asked again and again and again and they were threatened with
:15:46. > :15:50.legal action. When they said that they wanted this work to take place.
:15:51. > :15:55.And you have a cost-cutting council that isn't listening to its
:15:56. > :15:58.residents. It is a partly privatised organisation. You have a big
:15:59. > :16:02.building company that is getting a lot of money from a lot of contracts
:16:03. > :16:06.across London and doing shoddy work and it is not just here, it is in
:16:07. > :16:13.other parts of London as well. And it is very distressing and, like you
:16:14. > :16:15.said, this is a very unequal area. These are permanent residents or
:16:16. > :16:19.ordinary residents, not the wealthy. They are not the cameras, they
:16:20. > :16:23.cannot afford lawyers and private schools. They try to get lawyers but
:16:24. > :16:29.because of the legal aid cuts, they could not get lawyers. We will be
:16:30. > :16:32.putting all of those allegations and points that you raise over the
:16:33. > :16:36.coming days to the parties at which you point the finger. So thank you
:16:37. > :16:40.very much for that. Can I raise one more important thinking that we have
:16:41. > :16:44.received a lot of calls asking about people's families. Our main concern
:16:45. > :16:48.first is to give medical treatment for people at the rescue centre and
:16:49. > :16:55.people at the hospitals. People asking for their families, the right
:16:56. > :16:58.people to talk to our the cattle to bureau, through the police, because
:16:59. > :17:06.they will have the full information. Each centre has a list but also,
:17:07. > :17:11.because once they said that a family is missing, that does not mean they
:17:12. > :17:14.could be dead. They might be at a hospital. You are with the relatives
:17:15. > :17:17.who have missing people, what are you saying to them? We have had
:17:18. > :17:22.missing people in the morning who have been found. A lot of people,
:17:23. > :17:25.when they left the building, I had a man separated from his wife and a
:17:26. > :17:30.family separated from their kids, but they found them. Some of them
:17:31. > :17:33.went in different directions. We have six rescue centres and more
:17:34. > :17:36.than eight hospitals that have casualties. It is just a matter of
:17:37. > :17:40.time until they are found to stop thank you for giving us that note of
:17:41. > :17:44.help. We really appreciate that. Thank you both very much indeed.
:17:45. > :17:50.As you have been hearing, there have been frantic searches by frantic
:17:51. > :17:54.relatives who have been on-site Alde, anxious to hear news about
:17:55. > :17:57.those they cannot find. Katie Razzall has been following one man
:17:58. > :18:04.through the day as he went in search of his relative who lived within the
:18:05. > :18:08.town. -- within the tower. He said, I am in the building but I cannot
:18:09. > :18:13.leave because of the smog. We're not leaving, that is what he said.
:18:14. > :18:20.The waiting is torture. Chris Jones' brother-in-law lived with his wife
:18:21. > :18:25.and children on the 21st door to the next floor of the tower. He spoke
:18:26. > :18:33.with his relatives as the fire was spreading. The phone just kept
:18:34. > :18:38.ringing. No-one answered the phone, so we called his son and the once.
:18:39. > :18:42.We are stuck in this situation and it is difficult. Just the family, in
:18:43. > :18:45.one place, that is difficult, because they have to make life
:18:46. > :18:52.changing decisions. I am hoping, in my mind, that his phone has been
:18:53. > :18:58.left on the floor, and that there was enough here to go around. I
:18:59. > :19:01.don't know. Chris had other relatives in the block, too. A
:19:02. > :19:04.brother and sister-in-law on the ninth floor. She was on the lower
:19:05. > :19:08.floors and there was no problem. It was the upper floors who had the
:19:09. > :19:14.problem. I was there at about half two and within 20 minutes the whole
:19:15. > :19:18.estate was engulfed, but all of it. -- the whole of it. I have a lot of
:19:19. > :19:23.hope but my god, how are they going to get out? We are just hoping.
:19:24. > :19:28.Hours and hours of waiting. His wife was inside the centre for worried
:19:29. > :19:33.families. Chris was in the car outside, leading news of any kind.
:19:34. > :19:40.At least six people have died following a huge fire which engulfed
:19:41. > :19:48.a tower block in West London. This doesn't look good. Six people? That
:19:49. > :19:54.would be very, very lucky if just six people... We expect it to be
:19:55. > :20:04.worse. It will be worse. How is the family bearing up, your family?
:20:05. > :20:09.Well, they are coping. The van is going to have to roll, someone is
:20:10. > :20:14.going to have to roll. What do you mean that? The management of the
:20:15. > :20:18.block so big, they should have fired Stinger shares, not just barracks
:20:19. > :20:20.tinctures but they should have fire points, something to let the tenants
:20:21. > :20:26.know that something has gone wrong. But there was nothing, no alert,
:20:27. > :20:32.that is not good enough, not in 2017. The father missing from the
:20:33. > :20:37.21st floor is a hospital porter in the NHS. His three children range
:20:38. > :20:42.from 20 down to just a few years old. There are so many people still
:20:43. > :20:45.unaccounted for. Chris's other relatives were lucky to escape and
:20:46. > :20:49.this afternoon he helped them take some donated belongings to the hotel
:20:50. > :20:54.that they will sleep on tonight, paid for by the local authority. His
:20:55. > :21:01.brother-in-law was damning about the block's fire safety. Everything was
:21:02. > :21:09.wrong with that. No alarm, no shower water. No security. It is health and
:21:10. > :21:16.safety, a hazard. Last night, when did you know there was a fire? What
:21:17. > :21:20.happened? Around two o'clock, ice melt plastic burn. I woke up and I
:21:21. > :21:24.went to the kitchen, I thought that maybe someone had left something in
:21:25. > :21:30.the kitchen. I went into the kitchen and I saw flames, just behind the
:21:31. > :21:34.windows. I thought, that is wrong, the ninth floor? So I opened the
:21:35. > :21:40.window, and there was all the smoke. I said, it's serious. I went to my
:21:41. > :21:44.wife, and I said, look, we cup, there is a fire. We woke up and took
:21:45. > :21:51.the children and we went straight out. He has lived in the block from
:21:52. > :21:56.19 years and he spoke to a missing relative as the fire spread. We
:21:57. > :22:02.spoke to him at the beginning and we said get out, get out. He said OK,
:22:03. > :22:08.and then he said no, I need to stay, it will be more safe than leaving.
:22:09. > :22:16.Chris ferried the homeless family off to get some sleep. On social
:22:17. > :22:20.media... But this evening on his return, dreadful rumours started to
:22:21. > :22:25.appear online. My little cousin opened his phone, looked at it on
:22:26. > :22:29.social media and it said, rest in peace, blah blah blah. And it was
:22:30. > :22:35.the family. So I said, what does that mean? He said, someone says...
:22:36. > :22:39.And I said, have they got any evidence, had they seen the person
:22:40. > :22:42.themselves? Because if you have not seen or done anything, it is a bit
:22:43. > :22:48.premature to send out a message like that. And he came back, well, that
:22:49. > :22:51.is what I have been hearing. Unofficially they have said the
:22:52. > :22:57.family is dead, all of them are dead but however, we would like to make
:22:58. > :23:01.sure. The only time I will see it is when I can actually look at a body.
:23:02. > :23:07.Otherwise I will not recognise anything. Because that is when I
:23:08. > :23:15.start to Morton. -- I start to mourn.
:23:16. > :23:25.For every story with unhappy endings, there are some happy
:23:26. > :23:28.endings. A 13-year-old girl, missing presumed dead. Her parents had left
:23:29. > :23:32.in the apartment as they worked on a night shift, and she has just been
:23:33. > :23:39.reported alive and well, rescued by a neighbour. Thank you. Let's spend
:23:40. > :23:44.the rest of the programme thinking about the root causes for some of
:23:45. > :23:47.the mistakes that have been made that could lead to these things.
:23:48. > :23:49.Fires will happen, obviously, and in tall buildings
:23:50. > :23:51.without sprinkler systems, the idea is that they should be
:23:52. > :23:53.contained in a smallish portion of the structure.
:23:54. > :23:57.For residents, the advice is to stay put in their flats
:23:58. > :24:00.where they are behind fire-resistant doors and then the Fire Brigade can
:24:01. > :24:02.get the contained fire out and remove the people within,
:24:03. > :24:09.That's the plan - but in this case the fire was not contained,
:24:10. > :24:12.it ripped through the building, which meant the generic advice
:24:13. > :24:15.to residents to stay put was not necessarily right.
:24:16. > :24:21.The building cladding is an issue here.
:24:22. > :24:24.It has been in other fires and we have ascertained that a less
:24:25. > :24:26.fire retardant form was used in this case.
:24:27. > :24:37.Chris Cook looks at some of the early evidence on what happened.
:24:38. > :24:45.How can we begin to understand the scale of the disaster that began
:24:46. > :24:52.What went wrong, and might it happen again?
:24:53. > :24:54.First, it's worth knowing that buildings like this
:24:55. > :24:59.The idea is that if a fire breaks out, the fire brigade
:25:00. > :25:05.will have the time to combat it before it spreads.
:25:06. > :25:07.That's why the building had a so-called 'stay put' policy.
:25:08. > :25:09.People were supposed to stay in their flats
:25:10. > :25:15.In this case, the tragic situation seems to be that the stay put
:25:16. > :25:18.strategy which was in place has led to people being in the building
:25:19. > :25:22.as smoke and flames penetrated right the way through the property.
:25:23. > :25:28.The normal strategy, particularly with a tall
:25:29. > :25:31.building, is that some people may be less able than others
:25:32. > :25:39.to be able to escape down staircases, through 20 or 24
:25:40. > :25:41.storeys of a building, and therefore stay put
:25:42. > :25:47.where people may be less able to rapidly escape down a staircase.
:25:48. > :25:50.The issue is that the fire did not stay contained.
:25:51. > :25:53.It raced through the building, so that stay put system broke down.
:25:54. > :26:00.The prime candidate for allowing the fire to spread
:26:01. > :26:04.The insulation applied to the exterior of the building.
:26:05. > :26:13.I think the attention on the cladding is because we have
:26:14. > :26:16.seen in reports of the photographs, the burning exterior of the building
:26:17. > :26:19.and we have seen enormous areas where the exterior is destroyed.
:26:20. > :26:22.And of course the system that we have used, and we use it
:26:23. > :26:29.widely in this country, and it is an accepted system,
:26:30. > :26:31.is an aluminium composite panel system, and that system
:26:32. > :26:33.effectively is a thin panel, probably six millimetres
:26:34. > :26:36.thick or so, and typically it is made of two
:26:37. > :26:43.sheets of aluminium with a core in between.
:26:44. > :26:46.And that core, it's critical as to what it is made of,
:26:47. > :26:49.because if we look at some of the fires elsewhere around
:26:50. > :26:51.the world and we look at some of the fires in China
:26:52. > :26:54.or the Middle East, for example, that have been quite devastating,
:26:55. > :26:56.the core frequently has been a combustible type
:26:57. > :27:04.Newsnight has learned that the specific cladding in use
:27:05. > :27:07.in Kensington was a product called Reynobond and there are two
:27:08. > :27:12.The first is very fireproof and the second, which has
:27:13. > :27:15.a polyethylene core, is a bit less fireproof, and we have
:27:16. > :27:17.established it is the second, less fireproof version
:27:18. > :27:22.There have been questions about polyethylene core
:27:23. > :27:26.cladding from abroad, for example following fires
:27:27. > :27:37.Watch this polyethylene fire from France in 2012.
:27:38. > :27:39.It starts small and then quickly jumps up floors
:27:40. > :27:44.And within minutes, it's racing up the exterior.
:27:45. > :27:50.But the contractors who fitted the cladding in Kensington insist
:27:51. > :27:52.that their materials and work met the required standards.
:27:53. > :27:55.All modern British cladding is supposed to be of
:27:56. > :28:02.Whether our fire regulation in the right placed, though,
:28:03. > :28:04.has been an open question since a small disaster
:28:05. > :28:17.Since then, though, not much has happened.
:28:18. > :28:25.That led to a very detailed coroners inquest and report and part of that,
:28:26. > :28:27.they said that there should be a review of part
:28:28. > :28:29.B of the regulations which govern high-rise buildings.
:28:30. > :28:40.At the end of last year, Kevin Barwell, the Housing Minister,
:28:41. > :28:42.said that it would be but the secretary is still waiting
:28:43. > :28:49.for that and it was only in March this year when
:28:50. > :28:51.the members of the all-party group on fire safety
:28:52. > :28:53.were warning that lives would be at risk if there wasn't.
:28:54. > :28:56.The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea which owns the building
:28:57. > :28:59.The government response deserves probing, too.
:29:00. > :29:01.We need a response to make sure that other places don't
:29:02. > :29:06.Theresa May says lessons will be learned and actions taken.
:29:07. > :29:08.But there was a fatal fire in Camberwell in London in 2009
:29:09. > :29:11.at a building called Lakanal House and some have drawn comparison
:29:12. > :29:15.Jeremy Corbyn made reference to that in his response today.
:29:16. > :29:19.A review took place after the fire in Camberwell
:29:20. > :29:26.I believe we need to ask questions about what facilities and resources
:29:27. > :29:28.have been given to every local authority that has tower
:29:29. > :29:33.blocks within their area and, frankly, most do.
:29:34. > :29:37.We need to deal with this, we need people to be safe living
:29:38. > :29:43.Sir David Amess is the Conservative MP for Southend West and chair
:29:44. > :29:46.of the all-Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group.
:29:47. > :29:48.It was they who commissioned the report into that earlier
:29:49. > :29:52.fire which Mr Corbyn was talking about there.
:29:53. > :29:58.Matt Wrack is the General Secretary of the Fire Brigades Union.
:29:59. > :30:08.Thank you for coming in. Where any lessons learned after the Campbell
:30:09. > :30:13.will fire? I immediately say, there are no adequate words to express my
:30:14. > :30:17.sorrow for the affected families and it is very frustrating that we are
:30:18. > :30:23.not being wise after the event, our voice is being heard once that has
:30:24. > :30:30.been a disaster, we have said over and over again, sprinklers stopped
:30:31. > :30:33.lives being lost and in 2013 the coroner, after the disaster,
:30:34. > :30:37.recommended that sprinklers in these 4000 old tower blocks could be
:30:38. > :30:43.fitted and that is what we have been asking for all along the school
:30:44. > :30:48.asked for building regulations and we have been waiting 11 years. What
:30:49. > :30:53.response have you heard? Have you been told it is too expensive? We
:30:54. > :31:00.want to do it... Maybe another commission? This fire should not
:31:01. > :31:03.have happened. Who are you blaming? That sounds like a central
:31:04. > :31:13.government policy decision, your party... I am not blaming anyone, I
:31:14. > :31:16.am very frustrated that we are not wise after the event. The all party
:31:17. > :31:21.Parliamentary pointed out to Parliament consistently that these
:31:22. > :31:27.things should be acted on, it is crazy that all new buildings do not
:31:28. > :31:31.have sprinklers immediately fitted. You cannot put a price on any
:31:32. > :31:37.person's life, that is the bottom line. Matt Wrack, what have you
:31:38. > :31:46.taken out of this? The cladding issue? The sprinkler Bessie? I would
:31:47. > :31:51.also like, on behalf of firefighters, to say just how
:31:52. > :31:54.horrifying this incident is and our thoughts are with the residents and
:31:55. > :31:58.those bereaved tonight and it sounds like that will get worse and to pay
:31:59. > :32:02.tribute to the firefighters and emergency service workers who have
:32:03. > :32:07.undoubtedly saved lives. The starting point is needs to be an
:32:08. > :32:11.thorough investigation, the truth is they should not be happening in the
:32:12. > :32:21.UK. One of the wealthiest countries in the world. After like in our
:32:22. > :32:25.house, we have provided support, technical support from our own fire
:32:26. > :32:31.safety experts, and clearly action has not been taken as a result. Very
:32:32. > :32:37.serious questions have to be examined. Did either of you know
:32:38. > :32:45.that polyethylene, partly flammable material, was used for cladding and
:32:46. > :32:49.current renovations? And was creating this chimney effect? A
:32:50. > :32:54.small fire races up? Those pictures from France... I woke up this
:32:55. > :32:58.morning to see that and I have attended fires in tower blocks
:32:59. > :33:02.before and I have never seen anything like that before in the UK.
:33:03. > :33:08.That will shock firefighters to see the entire building engulfed. What
:33:09. > :33:10.about this stay put advice, but is always the advice in a tall
:33:11. > :33:18.building, it was not the right advice? I think the advice and even
:33:19. > :33:24.in that clip, if you own flat is not affected... The logic of the
:33:25. > :33:27.construction of tower blocks is to compartmentalise the fire, the fire
:33:28. > :33:34.should be restricted to the flat or floor of origin, there should be
:33:35. > :33:38.smug resistant, Smoke safe doors on every floor so that firefighters and
:33:39. > :33:43.residents can get out if they need to and firefighters can enter the
:33:44. > :33:49.building, but what in the bottom, get what out the top and put it onto
:33:50. > :33:54.the fire. That is the logic but if during the course of renovations,
:33:55. > :33:57.I'm saying this happened, if the fire resistant walls, doors,
:33:58. > :34:03.ceilings have been compromised, then clearly the whole basis upon bad
:34:04. > :34:07.advice is based falls apart. That is why the advice is there, in this
:34:08. > :34:17.incident it was not clearly adequate for those people. David, hence have
:34:18. > :34:24.to roll over this? Who will it be? -- head. It sounds like people much
:34:25. > :34:28.higher up, fire chiefs and council chiefs, it sounds like policy
:34:29. > :34:34.decisions? Today is the wrong day for that. Every incident, there is
:34:35. > :34:39.somebody to blame, but I hope the new Minister, Nick Hurd, will
:34:40. > :34:43.immediately tell all local authorities and housing associations
:34:44. > :34:47.who have tower blocks to do an immediate review of their fire
:34:48. > :34:52.safety precautions. Forget Parliament, this has to be done
:34:53. > :35:00.immediately and I hope that our All Party Parliamentary Group 's, their
:35:01. > :35:04.advice will be acted upon. Buildings renovated with polyethylene
:35:05. > :35:08.cladding, tall buildings, we cannot call them safe? There are probably
:35:09. > :35:16.quite a few of them around? We do not know the case -- the scale, we
:35:17. > :35:19.had a case with six people who died, fire protection was compromised by
:35:20. > :35:24.alterations, firefighters could not do their job in that situation and
:35:25. > :35:27.the coroner recommended action to be taken and it has not been taken and
:35:28. > :35:33.people living in those blocks have the right to ask those questions are
:35:34. > :35:37.answered the point... This should not be happening. That is a horrible
:35:38. > :35:40.aspect to this event. Thank you both very much.
:35:41. > :35:42.What does all this say about Britain today?
:35:43. > :35:45.A building with a population the size of a village,
:35:46. > :35:48.Now of course, building regulations are not discriminatory,
:35:49. > :35:50.they are not more lax for the poor than the rich.
:35:51. > :35:54.Was renovation work done on the cheap?
:35:55. > :35:55.Were there budget constraints in housing departments?
:35:56. > :35:59.The building was run by a so-called TMO -
:36:00. > :36:06.In this case, the Kensington and Chelsea one..
:36:07. > :36:08.These are companies that look after council housing on contract.
:36:09. > :36:12.They were created with the purported aim of giving residents power over
:36:13. > :36:15.what happens on their estates; but the Grenfell Action Group had
:36:16. > :36:22.That all speaks to the way the country is run -
:36:23. > :36:25.but remember, too, that we live in an era of undocumented workers,
:36:26. > :36:27.casual housing arrangements, friends sleeping on floors and sofas
:36:28. > :36:30.because it's too expensive to find a place to live.
:36:31. > :36:38.That may add poignancy to the story of the dead and missing.
:36:39. > :36:40.Well, I'm joined by Times writer David Aaronovitch, Shaun Bailey -
:36:41. > :36:42.Conservative member of the London Assembly
:36:43. > :36:44.and Anna Minton, an academic who writes about housing
:36:45. > :37:00.Good evening. Some have said this is like hurricane Katrina? Exactly
:37:01. > :37:06.right, this is an iconic moment for British housing in a similar way to
:37:07. > :37:10.Ronan point, which collapsed in 1968, killing four people and that
:37:11. > :37:14.signalled the end of mass system building and all those problems, the
:37:15. > :37:20.end of that era of tower block building. This is another symbolic
:37:21. > :37:23.moment, this signals the end of any lack of accountability because it is
:37:24. > :37:30.that lack of accountability that we have seen here by residents'
:37:31. > :37:36.concerns, repeated warnings, the management organisation has failed
:37:37. > :37:42.to listen to them and one key point- this is not a tenants management
:37:43. > :37:48.organisation, this is an arms length management organisation, which is a
:37:49. > :37:52.different sort of private company. It is not profit-making, it is
:37:53. > :37:57.designed to help the residents of console stock? This is an
:37:58. > :38:08.unaccountable quango. It has elected members? Manages 10,000 properties
:38:09. > :38:13.in the borough, it has half of its board members, they are residents,
:38:14. > :38:19.the rest of them are a mixture of... Residents of the borough or council
:38:20. > :38:23.housing? I believe there are residents from those 10,000 homes,
:38:24. > :38:28.we have a handful of residents from those 10,000 homes on that board but
:38:29. > :38:34.it is quite clear, the report made this abundantly clear. That board
:38:35. > :38:42.has repeatedly failed to respond... We will let them answer that when
:38:43. > :38:44.they have collected themselves. Shaun Bailey, does this play to an
:38:45. > :38:50.issue around power and accountability? Is that the
:38:51. > :38:54.underlying story? The underlying story is local people, I come from
:38:55. > :38:59.that area and my mother lives close by and there is a lot of terror
:39:00. > :39:02.because close to Grenfell Tower, there are blocks of a similar
:39:03. > :39:09.vintage and people are sitting in those... Have they been renovated?
:39:10. > :39:14.People are worried, I am not sure, one person is terrified, this could
:39:15. > :39:18.happen to us. Was it the regulations that went wrong was negligence
:39:19. > :39:23.around how this block is managed? Those are different things and that
:39:24. > :39:27.is what the investigation is to look at and however any building is run,
:39:28. > :39:30.we need to see an audit of their fire risk assessments so they can be
:39:31. > :39:37.held to account by an outside body, this is very important because once
:39:38. > :39:41.we get past the pain of this tragic incident, we will have to look at
:39:42. > :39:44.preventing it again and one of the key things is, who manages and how?
:39:45. > :39:50.Currently that has not been answered properly. I will come to David...
:39:51. > :39:55.Anna, who is a particular problem which is the cladding problem,
:39:56. > :40:01.probably not what the tenants were complaining about, they probably did
:40:02. > :40:05.not know this was polyethylene? They might have been aware. If it turns
:40:06. > :40:09.out to be that, why would you focus on accountability and power issues
:40:10. > :40:18.as opposed to a problem with the building? What I have heard is the
:40:19. > :40:22.tenants management organisation received eight reports of a fire
:40:23. > :40:29.risk in recent years from that tower and other towers in the borough. It
:40:30. > :40:36.is quite clear that there are much wider issues there. David, what do
:40:37. > :40:38.you think about the argument that this speaks to a kind of
:40:39. > :40:47.dysfunctional relationship between the rich and the rest, the many and
:40:48. > :40:54.the few and all these issues? This is 2017. And we should be so ashamed
:40:55. > :40:59.that this has happened in our capital city, a disaster of this
:41:00. > :41:04.scale. What will happen, as with what happened in the 1980s,
:41:05. > :41:09.Bradford, Hillsborough... We will discover that the causes of this
:41:10. > :41:14.fire, like those, were things that were easily known about and could
:41:15. > :41:20.properly, with a fair amount of money and foresight and attention,
:41:21. > :41:25.being dealt with. We have had an assault on the idea that the cost
:41:26. > :41:29.and attention required from health and safety legislation and health
:41:30. > :41:33.and safety practices... Whether or not this is a matter about poor or
:41:34. > :41:38.rich people, we can imagine there are mansion blocks, old mansion
:41:39. > :41:42.blocks, equally not fitted with sprinklers which equally might go up
:41:43. > :41:50.but where the complaints would be better heard. But we do not need to
:41:51. > :41:54.have disasters to be able to build preventative strategies into our
:41:55. > :41:59.mindset, we just need to spend the money and pay the attention. That it
:42:00. > :42:04.is on the board is important, I have been on many organisations and have
:42:05. > :42:08.lived in similar blocks and if you put a lot of tenants on, it looks
:42:09. > :42:14.good but what are you doing about the level of expertise? I would not
:42:15. > :42:18.have known about cladding, or any risks, you cannot just build a board
:42:19. > :42:25.and to the cosmetic thing, you have to give people access to
:42:26. > :42:30.information. You are right but we know that external cladding was
:42:31. > :42:34.responsible for the fire at the large to my hotel which everybody
:42:35. > :42:38.saw on YouTube on New Year's Day 2016 and if this is true that
:42:39. > :42:44.outside cladding can compromise every single major factor required
:42:45. > :42:53.for safety in our tower blocks, it is beyond copper hedging by this
:42:54. > :42:56.would not be known and acted upon. But if the All Party Parliamentary
:42:57. > :43:01.Group's actions had been followed and there was a review of
:43:02. > :43:06.regulations and we took regulations seriously, then that cladding would
:43:07. > :43:11.probably have not got through. We are not very good at low probability
:43:12. > :43:15.events that are probably not going to happen to us. That is a human
:43:16. > :43:22.failing, I will not worry about it. But we do have people who worry an
:43:23. > :43:26.awful lot about fire, we have fire briefings at the beginning of every
:43:27. > :43:32.meeting in Hotel, somebody will tell us about the exits, we about this,
:43:33. > :43:35.the criticism from David is interesting- how come we did not
:43:36. > :43:40.know that cladding was a terrible risk and we needed sprinklers? The
:43:41. > :43:45.cladding issue speaks to regulation but this was not a low probability
:43:46. > :43:50.event. There were eight repeated warnings. Thousands of tenants you
:43:51. > :43:57.that this was going to happen, they wrote about it. And the key thing is
:43:58. > :44:00.the mix of information, stay or go? Somebody needs to be clear because
:44:01. > :44:05.that would have saved lives. We do not know if that was wrong or right
:44:06. > :44:09.but we need a deeper investigation by the Fire Brigade and police
:44:10. > :44:12.because I know that tonight there are tenants worrying that if this
:44:13. > :44:19.happened in my blog, what would I do? All disasters are low
:44:20. > :44:23.probability events, the King's Cross fire had never happened before the
:44:24. > :44:27.King's Cross fire but when it did happen it was obvious that at some
:44:28. > :44:30.point it would and if it did it would happen with those
:44:31. > :44:35.consequences. The big accountability issue about how you give people in
:44:36. > :44:39.positions of responsibility incentives to make sure they take
:44:40. > :44:47.the requisite precautions and spend the right amount of money? How do we
:44:48. > :44:52.do that? You can say that as a person who was entirely responsible,
:44:53. > :44:57.often it is just at non-decision or the decision to think about things a
:44:58. > :45:00.little bit longer. What do we do? Do we want a culture that finds a
:45:01. > :45:07.culprit and blames them and scares the wits off other administrators?
:45:08. > :45:11.When you have no unaccountable quangos in charge who are not
:45:12. > :45:15.democratically elected and will not be answerable, you're opening the
:45:16. > :45:22.door to thing. People who say, who set budgets and regulations, we put
:45:23. > :45:27.sprinklers into tall buildings? You are right, accountability is just
:45:28. > :45:29.one issue because the people who might be accountable do not
:45:30. > :45:34.necessarily know what the problems will be so what you have to build in
:45:35. > :45:41.this culture of prevention at almost all costs, at this point. You have
:45:42. > :45:46.to stop complaining about the health and safety culture when you have got
:45:47. > :45:48.it, you have to prioritise it and say this is important and it might
:45:49. > :45:52.be difficult for us and it might have us doing things we don't quite
:45:53. > :45:58.like all the time but actually, it is a fairly essential part of seeing
:45:59. > :46:02.this time of thing not happening. It is about mitigating the risk, you
:46:03. > :46:05.cannot do 100% of mitigation but there is definitely something
:46:06. > :46:11.glaringly wrong here and although this might be a low probability
:46:12. > :46:15.event, fire is not and we understand that what starts fires and we can
:46:16. > :46:18.fight fires, the London Fire Brigade have been very successful but this
:46:19. > :46:22.is a very particular thing that is scaring London, there are many
:46:23. > :46:26.buildings of this vintage in London and somebody needs to look at how we
:46:27. > :46:29.can empower residents to look after themselves and the building because
:46:30. > :46:34.that will mainly save lives. If those residents were confident about
:46:35. > :46:37.what to do, more people would be alive tonight. It is not about
:46:38. > :46:40.empowering residents, it is about the fact we have a government that
:46:41. > :46:43.does not believe in regulation. We need to live there.
:46:44. > :46:47.And for obvious reasons, we have not even mentioned
:46:48. > :46:49.the resignation of Tim Farron - he stepped down as leader
:46:50. > :46:52.of the Lib Dems, referring to the struggle of reconciling his
:46:53. > :46:54.christianity and his leadership of a progressive party.
:46:55. > :46:56.We couldn't do justice to the politics or the principles
:46:57. > :46:59.of that today, so we'll get back to it tomorrow.
:47:00. > :47:02.And I'm sure, the repercussions of this fire, as we learn more
:47:03. > :47:05.about its causes and consequences will also be preoccupying us.