:00:10. > :00:37.Who were they? Almost two days later we don't know the basic thing. What
:00:38. > :00:41.we do now is it will be more than the 17 officially counted. He tried
:00:42. > :00:51.to call his family back home in Syria. He said, the fire has reached
:00:52. > :00:54.me now. I am going to die. Tell my mum and my father, I love them.
:00:55. > :00:57.How was this building made into a literal death trap?
:00:58. > :01:04.How many more buildings like it are out there?
:01:05. > :01:06.The explosion might have happened at one o'clock,
:01:07. > :01:11.So in half an hour, 13 floors already on fire.
:01:12. > :01:15.There's to be a public inquiry, so we may not have proper answers
:01:16. > :01:18.How many different safety concerns have been bubbling under
:01:19. > :01:24.Group upon group have been lining up to tell the government
:01:25. > :01:26.that they need to make a review of building regulations and we've
:01:27. > :01:29.seen building regulations ministers time and time again saying,
:01:30. > :01:34.And the Prime Minister comes without cameras in tow but only
:01:35. > :01:44.Is this, like Hurricane Katrina, becoming a defining
:01:45. > :01:57.We'll ask the leader of Kensington and Chelsea council.
:01:58. > :02:01.To those of us who have not experienced the trauma
:02:02. > :02:04.that the residents and families of Grenfell Towers are suffering,
:02:05. > :02:07.their loss in unimaginable but we sense their rising anger
:02:08. > :02:10.that they were dealt a dreadful hand.
:02:11. > :02:14.They lived in a building which was quite simply, not safe.
:02:15. > :02:16.Repeated pleas by residents and warnings that something awful
:02:17. > :02:22.The burning building now charred against the blue sky,
:02:23. > :02:25.may come to symbolise the moment there was a shift in society,
:02:26. > :02:33.There are so many who have lost loved ones and seen things
:02:34. > :02:34.no-one should ever see, others who have survived
:02:35. > :02:38.with life changing injuries, and many who still await news.
:02:39. > :02:41.Let's get a sense of the mood on the ground.
:02:42. > :02:44.Joining us from West London is, Derek Wilson, pastor
:02:45. > :02:47.at the Christian Centre Trust Tabernacle, who has helped
:02:48. > :03:00.Good evening, Derek Wilson. Tonight, so many people are still missing
:03:01. > :03:10.their loved ones. Who is helping them tonight? I think what is
:03:11. > :03:16.happening, reality is beginning to set in. Really, there are no more
:03:17. > :03:21.survivors. At this time, there is a lot of frustration, a lot of anger
:03:22. > :03:26.of what has happens, that could have been prevented. And as you are
:03:27. > :03:29.saying, the realisation for many people that they will have lost
:03:30. > :03:34.members of their family and eagerness to find some information.
:03:35. > :03:50.Information we seem to be getting very, very slowly? Absolutely. It is
:03:51. > :03:57.shocking. What is more shocking is that this industry report that was
:03:58. > :04:02.released two years ago and was the council's notifier. It could have
:04:03. > :04:07.been prevented. It just fell on deaf ears and that is why you are getting
:04:08. > :04:11.the frustration and be anger at this time in the community. Do you think
:04:12. > :04:16.enough is being done by the council. I know there are so many emergency
:04:17. > :04:25.centres that have set up, your own church is one, is enough being done
:04:26. > :04:31.by the council? Well, this is what needs to be answered. There is some
:04:32. > :04:37.tough questions and some tough answers from this enquiry that needs
:04:38. > :04:43.to come out. What I mean tonight, pastor, is there enough council
:04:44. > :04:49.workers on the ground helping, or is it all volunteers? Is the council in
:04:50. > :04:53.control of the situation? Now there is, because where we have our
:04:54. > :04:59.church, the food and clothing are beginning to shift at this time. By
:05:00. > :05:04.tomorrow, I believe everything should be moved out of the buildings
:05:05. > :05:10.to a central place where those who need it, can get access to it. Are
:05:11. > :05:14.all the residents who have been saved from the tower, are they being
:05:15. > :05:24.housed locally, are they being looked after locally? They are still
:05:25. > :05:30.in temporary accommodation. They are in the Westway, the indoor tennis
:05:31. > :05:32.court, they need to be housed as soon as possible. Thank you very
:05:33. > :05:36.much indeed, pastor. Well throughout the day our reporter
:05:37. > :05:39.Katie Razzall has been in the shadow of Grenfell Towers,
:05:40. > :05:41.speaking to people who lost loved ones, and others whose
:05:42. > :05:43.friends and family members are still unaccounted for and also
:05:44. > :06:00.getting a feel for the solidarity Yesterday, in the afternoon, we were
:06:01. > :06:09.accommodated. This is where I live, 571. Until the early hours of
:06:10. > :06:15.Wednesday morning, this man lived in Grenfell Tower. Now his home is a
:06:16. > :06:19.hotel. He is haunted by what he saw that night and the neighbours but
:06:20. > :06:24.could not have survived. Being in the building for this many hours, of
:06:25. > :06:32.course you are not alive. He showed me his videos of the fire. This is
:06:33. > :06:42.when I phoned my mum. I think I phoned my mum at 1:30am. By then it
:06:43. > :06:46.is really on fire. He was leaving the cinema with his sister when his
:06:47. > :06:51.mother called from home to save their block was ablaze. He found her
:06:52. > :06:56.after an agonising wait. I tried to go inside the building to save my
:06:57. > :07:02.mum. I saw a firefighter going in at the same time and he stopped me and
:07:03. > :07:07.said, only people can come out, nobody is allowed in. I said, my mum
:07:08. > :07:16.is in there. I ran and the first person I saw was my mum. I was so
:07:17. > :07:21.happy. Happiness and laughter lasted -- lasted for ten to 20 seconds.
:07:22. > :07:26.People were on the phone talking to their kids, they're why. One man was
:07:27. > :07:32.telling his wife what to do. We told him to put a wet towel over her
:07:33. > :07:40.mouth and her daughter's mouth and get on the floor. To help with the
:07:41. > :07:45.gas, to help with the explosion. Did they get out, do you think? No.
:07:46. > :07:52.Newsnight understands from a firefighter, they knew after 11am
:07:53. > :07:57.yesterday morning they would be unlikely to find any more survivors.
:07:58. > :08:02.It was the worst they had seen in all their years of firefighting.
:08:03. > :08:07.Block of around 600 hundred inhabitants from diverse
:08:08. > :08:15.backgrounds, still smoking today. Most of them were Muslims from
:08:16. > :08:19.Turkey, Somalia, there were English people, black people, black Muslims.
:08:20. > :08:26.What do we know of who lived in Grenfell Tower. This rainy and bone
:08:27. > :08:33.man lived in flat ten on the third floor, a floor below where the fire
:08:34. > :08:37.started. Other survivors include on the ninth sorry, this Moroccan
:08:38. > :08:41.family who fled when one of them smelt smoke and woke up to see
:08:42. > :08:46.flames outside. From the 11th floor, this lady who escaped with her
:08:47. > :08:50.husband and three children when a friend called to tell her of the
:08:51. > :08:56.fire. It is the poor souls who are missing or dead who keep this man
:08:57. > :09:03.awake at night. I cannot close my eyes when I know people died in
:09:04. > :09:08.front of me. You saw it, they do? Yes, I saw people jumping out from
:09:09. > :09:13.the building. Not one or two, many. Couldn't avoid looking at them.
:09:14. > :09:19.Yesterday we heard other family on the 21st floor. A 20-year-old with
:09:20. > :09:24.his parents, brother and sister. There were rumours on social media
:09:25. > :09:30.the family is dead. Officially, they are still missing. This from a
:09:31. > :09:35.friend today. It breaks my heart because social media is going out
:09:36. > :09:39.and things are confirmed. Those messages are going to his family and
:09:40. > :09:46.friends and it is distorting everything. No one in the tower has
:09:47. > :09:53.been confirmed. On the 14th floor lived Syrian brothers. University
:09:54. > :10:00.student Mohammed Alhajali was overwhelmed by smoke while his
:10:01. > :10:05.friends escaped. It was confirmed he perished after a phone call home to
:10:06. > :10:13.Syria. He was terrified, he was scared. He had hoped the emergency
:10:14. > :10:17.services would get to him. Two hours later, he phoned to say the fire has
:10:18. > :10:24.reached me now. I am going to die. Goodbye to my mum and my father, I
:10:25. > :10:29.love them. That was the last message from him. The names and faces of the
:10:30. > :10:35.missing residence of the tower gives a snapshot into a diverse and
:10:36. > :10:38.tight-knit community. This 79-year-old from the Philippines.
:10:39. > :10:45.And this month, was about to win an award for his work as a security
:10:46. > :10:50.guard. The Italians who moved into the 23rd floor three months ago and
:10:51. > :10:55.this five-year-old who was lost in in the chaos of the evacuation. This
:10:56. > :11:00.is a community anxiously waiting for news of loved ones and friends. They
:11:01. > :11:01.were warned today, the police fear they may never identify all of those
:11:02. > :11:05.who have been killed. Well, this has gone beyond a local
:11:06. > :11:08.tragedy and become a event that has touched people
:11:09. > :11:10.across the whole country. And along with that spotlight has
:11:11. > :11:12.come intense scrutiny of whether politicians at a national
:11:13. > :11:15.level have done enough in the past But it was also the tone
:11:16. > :11:21.of the response that drew attention. Theresa May was pictured
:11:22. > :11:22.meeting the leaders of the London Fire Service,
:11:23. > :11:28.while Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was filmed
:11:29. > :11:31.mingling with local people. Our political editor
:11:32. > :11:33.Nick Watt is here. Nick, how's the political
:11:34. > :11:44.response going down? How has that political response been
:11:45. > :11:48.judge? There is those who say it could provide a defining image of
:11:49. > :11:57.her Premiership. One Tory MP said the Prime Minister is behaving how
:11:58. > :12:01.she behaved in the election. Her limitations are there for everybody
:12:02. > :12:05.to see. When Theresa May visits the scene of a tragedy, she always goes
:12:06. > :12:10.out of her way to ensure she is not a burden on the emergency services.
:12:11. > :12:14.This was a private visit, there were no cameras and there were limited
:12:15. > :12:19.discussions with the emergency service leaders and volunteer
:12:20. > :12:24.leaders, but there was no meeting with the residents. As I understand
:12:25. > :12:31.it, the Prime Minister wanted to hear directly, on the ground what
:12:32. > :12:35.had happened, before deciding what to do. She had been told the fire
:12:36. > :12:38.had spread in a strange, unpredictable and volatile way and
:12:39. > :12:43.when she heard that, she said there are huge questions to be answered
:12:44. > :12:47.and so later on, she announced there will be a judge led public enquiry
:12:48. > :12:49.and she says that will report properly. Thank you very much.
:12:50. > :12:51.Nick Paget-Brown is the Conservative leader of Kensington
:12:52. > :13:02.Good evening. When will you last in Grenfell Tower? I went to the
:13:03. > :13:08.opening of the dale boxing club last summer, just after the end of the
:13:09. > :13:13.refurbishment of the tower. We were delighted, not only had we found
:13:14. > :13:17.more homes in the tower through a judicious conversion of certain
:13:18. > :13:26.rooms, but we got the boxing club, so I went to a happy opening. So not
:13:27. > :13:30.up the tower? In the tower, up a level, then when the refurbishment
:13:31. > :13:35.was completed, we went into a flat further up to look at the new
:13:36. > :13:41.kitchen and heating system and the new windows. At that stage you were
:13:42. > :13:43.aware of concerns about the refurbishment? Some residents were
:13:44. > :13:49.very concerned about the whole concept of the refurbishment. Some
:13:50. > :13:54.residents were pleased it addressed the problems they had with heating,
:13:55. > :13:58.either being hot or cold. We had invested ?10 million to deal with
:13:59. > :14:02.their problems. We will know more about what will go wrong in the
:14:03. > :14:06.public enquiry, there are certain things we can talk about now because
:14:07. > :14:11.this is your area and things will have to move quicker than the public
:14:12. > :14:15.enquiry, one assumes. How many towers in Kensington and Chelsea
:14:16. > :14:21.have similar cladding? As far as we know, there are no other towers
:14:22. > :14:26.without cladding. No other old towers have modern cladding? As far
:14:27. > :14:30.as I am aware no other towers in Kensington and Chelsea have that
:14:31. > :14:35.particular form of cladding. You won't be putting cladding on like
:14:36. > :14:41.that with the same components in the future? No. How many towers do you
:14:42. > :14:47.have without sprinklers? That will vary, according to what the fire
:14:48. > :14:52.inspection requires they have. New towers do have sprinklers, some old
:14:53. > :14:57.towers don't, how many old towers don't? Some of the old towers before
:14:58. > :15:02.the 1970s won't have integral sprinklers. I cannot give you a
:15:03. > :15:06.number. You have not checked up since the fire? We have looked at
:15:07. > :15:12.the London Fire Brigade to check on all the towers and make sure all the
:15:13. > :15:16.safety in all the towers, if they can give is the assurance we need
:15:17. > :15:17.that all of those towers are saved and comply with fire standards and
:15:18. > :15:27.regulations. We will talk about wrinkles in a
:15:28. > :15:31.moment but in the refurbishment, did you consider retrofitting
:15:32. > :15:35.sprinklers? I did not consider that, but what you try to do when you are
:15:36. > :15:40.refurbishing is contain a fire within a particular flat so that the
:15:41. > :15:48.Fire Service can evacuate that flat, deal with the fire. Do you wish now
:15:49. > :15:55.that you had splinters? Because from the black canal house case, in 2013,
:15:56. > :16:00.the coroner wrote to the governor saying that retrofitting of speakers
:16:01. > :16:07.may now be possible at lower costs than had previously been thought.
:16:08. > :16:10.And a report said they reckon that Grenfell Tower could have been
:16:11. > :16:14.retrofitted with sprinklers which would have helped with this fire for
:16:15. > :16:21.?200,000. And we know the residents were talking about the issues of
:16:22. > :16:24.sprinklers. Why was retrofitting sprinklers not considered? Because
:16:25. > :16:27.there was not a collective view that all the flats should be fitted with
:16:28. > :16:35.sprinklers because that would have delayed and made the refurbishment
:16:36. > :16:38.more destructive. Delay would have been less important than having a
:16:39. > :16:45.fire? We're talking retrospectively after the most enormous tragedy.
:16:46. > :16:49.Many residents felt that we needed to get on with the fitting of
:16:50. > :16:53.boilers and heating systems and to retrofit more would delay the
:16:54. > :16:58.building and that sprinklers were not the answer. Do you regret that?
:16:59. > :17:02.I regret anything that we might have done differently that would have
:17:03. > :17:07.avoided the tragedy. But right now, when talking about the response
:17:08. > :17:11.right now, and we know this from residents, they have been put in a
:17:12. > :17:13.local hotel last night, and they were not told until lunchtime
:17:14. > :17:16.whether they would be able to stay there. They were not told whether
:17:17. > :17:19.they would be allowed to have food, and they were told the council would
:17:20. > :17:24.come and they did not come. The truth is that you cannot cope with
:17:25. > :17:30.this. I am being honest and I think that we have coped with it as well
:17:31. > :17:36.as we can after eight tragedy of this dimension. We have host people.
:17:37. > :17:39.But you do not have the council workers to deal with traumatised
:17:40. > :17:44.families. You promised the council would come to see them but you
:17:45. > :17:48.cannot deal with that when people are grief stricken. We have three
:17:49. > :17:51.emergency centres and we have councils... It is about people you
:17:52. > :17:55.are housing and you said you would visit them and nobody has visited.
:17:56. > :18:00.My understanding is that housing officials are and will visit them
:18:01. > :18:04.but there are issues about people... You feel is to look after them once
:18:05. > :18:09.and you are feeling to look after them twice. I hope that we are not,
:18:10. > :18:14.I hope we are fitting them into safe temporary accommodation while we are
:18:15. > :18:18.working out the long-term challenges they face. -- you were feeling to
:18:19. > :18:24.look after them once and you are feeling to look after them once.
:18:25. > :18:28.Theresa May did not meet residents today, because of security concerns.
:18:29. > :18:32.Is that not a dreadful error of judgment? All I can talk to you
:18:33. > :18:37.about is what the local authorities doing to improve the lives of
:18:38. > :18:42.people. She is your conservative leader. Should she have met
:18:43. > :18:46.residents, should she should she not? She did not meet residents
:18:47. > :18:50.because she did not want to interfere with the work of the
:18:51. > :18:54.emergency services. That would not have interfered. I have met people
:18:55. > :18:57.within the emergency centres and I am delighted to welcome anybody,
:18:58. > :19:00.including the Secretary of State, and they will meet residents and
:19:01. > :19:05.here the problem. We have asked the government for help with more
:19:06. > :19:10.housing accommodation. We need to house people permanently, not just
:19:11. > :19:13.temporarily. David Lammy this morning alleged that this was
:19:14. > :19:17.corporate manslaughter. Do you recognise that possibility? I think
:19:18. > :19:21.that is a matter for the enquiry and I will not comment on any of these
:19:22. > :19:26.allegations because I think that would be the wrong thing to do. I
:19:27. > :19:31.understand it and I appreciate it but I think my job is to make sure
:19:32. > :19:35.that the borough, and those people whose lives have been devastated, I
:19:36. > :19:39.need to focus my energies on them and I do not want to be brought into
:19:40. > :19:40.political slanging matches. Let's look at the national picture.
:19:41. > :19:42.Chris Philp is the Conservative MP for Croydon South.
:19:43. > :19:44.Andy Slaughter is Labour's shadow housing minister.
:19:45. > :19:50.His Hammersmith constituency is adjacent to Grenfell Tower.
:19:51. > :20:02.First of all, a lot of high-rises were built under various
:20:03. > :20:06.government's watches. How many decades old buildings do not have
:20:07. > :20:09.sprinkler systems? Many will not have sprinkler systems and the
:20:10. > :20:13.recommendation on retrofitting which we have heard from 2013 has not been
:20:14. > :20:22.implemented. In fact it was rejected. The lack house disaster
:20:23. > :20:31.was on Labour's watch and they did not pursue the recommendation. --
:20:32. > :20:35.the Lakanal House disaster. It is a political issue. It is. And to
:20:36. > :20:44.correct you on that point, the coroners letters came out in 2013
:20:45. > :20:49.and they are the ones that were not permitted. I think the issue here is
:20:50. > :20:58.that this is on a completely different scale to any previous
:20:59. > :21:05.fire. So we have a situation where you have in the space of 15 minutes,
:21:06. > :21:09.the fire spreading from one corner of the block to the entire block.
:21:10. > :21:12.But in lots of Labour councils throughout the land there are
:21:13. > :21:18.buildings which have been required. There are also building that do not
:21:19. > :21:20.have Spengler systems. -- buildings which have been reclad. Is there
:21:21. > :21:26.going to be an assessment made to see what problems there might be?
:21:27. > :21:30.The truth of the matter is that if buildings are reclad in materials
:21:31. > :21:34.similar to this, that could be problems. That is the priority
:21:35. > :21:38.question. Many councils like my own, I'm doing the assessment right now
:21:39. > :21:42.and I expect to report tomorrow but this has to be a job for central
:21:43. > :21:48.government. Cannot wait for a public enquiry to make these analyses of
:21:49. > :21:52.whether there are other tower blocks at risk. That has to be our number
:21:53. > :21:56.one priority. Even if their rent any, people will be worried that
:21:57. > :22:04.there are. Thank you. Turning to you, Chris, John and Neil from the
:22:05. > :22:09.Fire Service regulations have said that the relations were resisted
:22:10. > :22:17.because no body was dying in these buildings. Did Grenfell Tower have
:22:18. > :22:23.to happen before people would take action? A meeting was set to occur
:22:24. > :22:27.when the election was called. But four years, four years? 2013 and
:22:28. > :22:32.2017. The truth of the matter is that if something similar had been
:22:33. > :22:35.found in an aircraft, because of cladding that was not suitable or
:22:36. > :22:41.the fact that sprinklers were not fitted, it would be shut down, but
:22:42. > :22:44.the problem is that people who do not have any power lives in these
:22:45. > :22:50.high-rise buildings and nobody listens to them. Going back to the
:22:51. > :22:54.coroners report, one of the recommendations was that the
:22:55. > :22:58.Secretary of State right to social housing providers asking them to
:22:59. > :23:02.consider fitting sprinkler systems and Eric Pickles did that
:23:03. > :23:07.straightaway. Some councils responded immediately. But some
:23:08. > :23:12.wanted the central government to allow them to carry more debt? The
:23:13. > :23:14.building we are looking adhere had a ?10 million refurbishment very
:23:15. > :23:19.recently and I have seen the figures. It would have only cost
:23:20. > :23:25.?200,000 to put in sprinklers, and it was not a question of money, it
:23:26. > :23:27.was a question of priorities. Something extraordinary clearly
:23:28. > :23:31.happened in that building and we need to find out as a matter of
:23:32. > :23:37.urgency exactly what it was. Was at the cladding, the lack of
:23:38. > :23:39.sprinklers, was it something else? Whatever happened in the building,
:23:40. > :23:44.we need to make sure that it never happens again. But as well as that,
:23:45. > :23:48.somebody unusually will have to carry the can. I think is that
:23:49. > :23:51.public enquiry, led by a judge appointed by the Lord Chief Justice,
:23:52. > :23:56.so completely independent and able to call any witness, if they find an
:23:57. > :23:59.individual or corporate body failed in their duty, then clearly
:24:00. > :24:03.prosecutions should follow. But that is something that the public enquiry
:24:04. > :24:06.will have to look at and report upon. What do you think the
:24:07. > :24:10.government should do in the interim? In the interim, it has to do with
:24:11. > :24:16.two things. They have to give reassurance to the hundreds of
:24:17. > :24:19.thousands that lived in tower blocks that they are safe but it also has
:24:20. > :24:22.to give assurances to the people who live around Grenfell Tower, who are
:24:23. > :24:27.justifiably very angry that their concerns have not been listened to.
:24:28. > :24:32.Setting up that enquiry, it has to be open and transparent and people
:24:33. > :24:36.have to be persuaded, as they are not at the moment, that it is going
:24:37. > :24:40.to find the truth and if people are responsible, they must be punished.
:24:41. > :24:44.There will be an early interim report after a couple of months, and
:24:45. > :24:48.if there is any critical failings, like if the cladding is highly
:24:49. > :24:52.flammable, which was suggested, we need to know about that in a matter
:24:53. > :24:56.of weeks. And move people out of the buildings. If other buildings have
:24:57. > :25:00.that dangerous cladding, immediate action will need to be taken in a
:25:01. > :25:03.matter of weeks and months. You are suggesting that if there is similar
:25:04. > :25:08.cladding on other buildings, people should be moved out immediately. If
:25:09. > :25:11.it is flammable, yes. Let's talk about Theresa May. We understand
:25:12. > :25:17.that she did not want to interrupt the work of the emergency services
:25:18. > :25:22.or volunteers, but she chose not to meet residents. It was cited as
:25:23. > :25:26.being for security concerns. People could have met her in private, and
:25:27. > :25:30.it would have been perfectly safe to meet people. Did you think that
:25:31. > :25:34.showed somebody that was showing a compassionate side? I'm not sure if
:25:35. > :25:38.it was just security concerns. I think she was keen not to intrude
:25:39. > :25:41.and cause disruption at a time of anxiety and grief. The people
:25:42. > :25:45.concerned were still searching for loved ones. Is it not important to
:25:46. > :25:49.have the Prime Minister show she cares? She is trying to be practical
:25:50. > :25:53.and talk to the emergency services, to find out what needs to be done
:25:54. > :25:56.rather than grandstanding. I am sure she will meet families but the day
:25:57. > :26:00.after they have lost their loved ones, the last thing you need is the
:26:01. > :26:04.Prime Minister of the country elbowing her way in. To be honest, I
:26:05. > :26:08.have spent a few days down there with Jeremy Corbyn. People did not
:26:09. > :26:11.think he was intruding, they thought he was showing simple human sympathy
:26:12. > :26:12.and kindness. Thank you both very much indeed.
:26:13. > :26:14.The Public Inquiry will take evidence from all manner of experts,
:26:15. > :26:16.contractors, councillors, emergency services,
:26:17. > :26:21.community organisations, politicians and hopefully residents,
:26:22. > :26:24.but it doesn't take a public inquiry to say that a review of building
:26:25. > :26:26.regulations covering fire safety was promised by Theresa May's
:26:27. > :26:29.chief of staff last year but has not been published.
:26:30. > :26:35.The reason for that review was the fatal Lakanal House fire
:26:36. > :26:38.in 2009 a multi-storey block in which six people died.
:26:39. > :26:44.The coroner in the Lakanal House Inquest said that the government
:26:45. > :26:47.should encourage providers of high rise housing to consider
:26:48. > :26:50.retrofitting sprinkler systems - there was none in Grenfell -
:26:51. > :26:52.and there are 4000 tower blocks in the UK that
:26:53. > :26:58.We'll be talking to the lawyer for the Lakanal residents in a second.
:26:59. > :27:00.But first, last night our policy editor Chris Cook reported
:27:01. > :27:03.on details of the material with which Grenfell was cladded.
:27:04. > :27:05.He's been looking more closely at this issue.
:27:06. > :27:24.One of the most important questions to answer quickly is,
:27:25. > :27:26.how many other buildings are at risk from fires
:27:27. > :27:28.of the sort that devastated the Grenfell Tower.
:27:29. > :27:30.Right now, that's a very hard question to answer.
:27:31. > :27:31.To really understand the tragedy that
:27:32. > :27:34.unfolded this week in Kensington, it may help to appreciate a success
:27:35. > :27:38.Back in 2012, there was a major fire on the 17th
:27:39. > :27:41.A pensioner's flat was completely destroyed.
:27:42. > :27:45.It was contained by the walls and floors and the external
:27:46. > :27:54.So the fire brigade were able to get here
:27:55. > :27:56.and stop it from getting into any other flats.
:27:57. > :27:58.A personal tragedy was prevented from becoming a much
:27:59. > :28:02.One explanation for why the fire spread so quickly in
:28:03. > :28:04.the Grenfell Tower was that the fire appears
:28:05. > :28:07.to have spread over the outside of the building
:28:08. > :28:13.That's insulation added to the exterior of the building
:28:14. > :28:23.This broad design of cladding is in wide use.
:28:24. > :28:26.You pin a layer of insulation material to the outside of the
:28:27. > :28:30.Then add a waterproof layer to guard against the weather.
:28:31. > :28:31.It was this outer layer that Newsnight
:28:32. > :28:33.revealed yesterday, was of a design that
:28:34. > :28:39.wasn't as fireproof as it might have been.
:28:40. > :28:41.But experts have also called into question whether there's
:28:42. > :28:43.Not with Grenfell Tower in particular,
:28:44. > :28:46.but with materials being used in general in cladding.
:28:47. > :28:48.The Fire Protection Association has been
:28:49. > :28:52.conducting tests on widely used insulation material, for example.
:28:53. > :28:55.Typically, we will fill a wheelie bin with cardboard, plastic bottles
:28:56. > :28:58.and normal stuff you see in a normal recycling bin.
:28:59. > :29:04.We put it up against the cladding and set fire to it.
:29:05. > :29:12.You get some initial charring, but within a very short space
:29:13. > :29:14.of time, the fire has got into the expanded
:29:15. > :29:17.Theresa May today announced an enquiry.
:29:18. > :29:19.Whether we take enough care to keep such
:29:20. > :29:22.combustible material safely boxed in is one of the questions it
:29:23. > :29:30.I am today ordering a full public enquiry into this disaster.
:29:31. > :29:34.We need to have an explanation of this.
:29:35. > :29:36.We owe that to the families, to the people
:29:37. > :29:38.who have lost loved ones, friends and the homes
:29:39. > :29:45.One of the first questions, though, is how widespread is the
:29:46. > :29:47.sort of arrangement we saw at the Grenfell Tower
:29:48. > :29:54.Where we've seen the widespread insulation of buildings,
:29:55. > :29:55.retrospective insulation of buildings, is generally
:29:56. > :30:01.The insulation materials of choice tend to be combustible or
:30:02. > :30:06.It's very rare that I'm seeing installed in
:30:07. > :30:09.residential accommodation noncombustible insulation material.
:30:10. > :30:12.We may have problems because we are quite slow
:30:13. > :30:23.I'm absolutely amazed that your regulations haven't been looked
:30:24. > :30:27.at for over ten years, as I understand it.
:30:28. > :30:29.With all of the developments happening with
:30:30. > :30:33.materials, we see some of these fires that
:30:34. > :30:35.are occurring around the world, we have lessons that we learn
:30:36. > :30:39.from other countries, new materials that are being developed,
:30:40. > :30:47.A 10-year plus review of regulations, I don't think
:30:48. > :30:50.But there's been resistance in Whitehall to
:30:51. > :30:54.regulation reform and in part, it's because
:30:55. > :31:07.Conversations we've had with officials at DCLG, very recently
:31:08. > :31:10.have pointed out that people aren't dying in these buildings.
:31:11. > :31:12.And so, while no one was dying, it didn't matter?
:31:13. > :31:19.Group upon group have been lining up to
:31:20. > :31:22.tell the government they need to make a review
:31:23. > :31:24.A full explanation of the tragedy will
:31:25. > :31:29.The fire penetrated the building very deeply, so why didn't its
:31:30. > :31:31.internal fire brakes hold the fire back?
:31:32. > :31:33.Do we need sprinklers in more buildings?
:31:34. > :31:40.Sophie Khan acted as lawyer for the residents group
:31:41. > :31:43.of the Lakanal House fire in 2009 in which six people died.
:31:44. > :31:55.Went you saw the fire, it must have brought back all the mammaries? Did,
:31:56. > :32:01.and questions have to be asked that after how a very detailed inquest,
:32:02. > :32:09.and a report to the government, why this could happen again? Is the
:32:10. > :32:13.right way a public enquiry? No, the right way is inquests. The families
:32:14. > :32:17.have a right to participate, they have a right to cross-examine upper
:32:18. > :32:22.questions to the experts and able to get their own experts if the coroner
:32:23. > :32:27.gets permission. The coroner is independent of the government. In a
:32:28. > :32:32.public enquiry, it is very much government lead. And ice right in
:32:33. > :32:38.saying no way, any resident family member take place in a public
:32:39. > :32:43.enquiry? Not in a public enquiry, very limited rules in a public
:32:44. > :32:49.enquiry, it is government-controlled, government
:32:50. > :32:52.outcome. Was this unavoidable? 100%. The sprinklers, even though it
:32:53. > :32:56.wouldn't have said the building, I think it would have said the
:32:57. > :33:03.individuals inside the building. It would have given them time to get
:33:04. > :33:13.out. The building, I I believe, would have perished. Is it your
:33:14. > :33:18.experience that residents Association are not listened to?
:33:19. > :33:23.Yes, but also the fire assessments, we have to look at the fire
:33:24. > :33:26.assessments. Here, there is a fire issue, not just a council we need to
:33:27. > :33:33.look at. What whether Fire Brigade doing? The refurbishments have been
:33:34. > :33:38.done, what tests did they do on the building? But these are questions
:33:39. > :33:43.the residents will not be able to ask in the public enquiry. In your
:33:44. > :33:47.view, is this an intended consequence of the public enquiry or
:33:48. > :33:52.do you think it is worked out a position that if the government goes
:33:53. > :33:58.for a public enquiry and not an inquest, they will be not subject to
:33:59. > :34:04.the same scrutiny? That is correct. In an inquests, they lose control of
:34:05. > :34:08.what a jury verdict will do. And I jury will come out with narrative
:34:09. > :34:14.verdicts which may be difficult for the government... One of the other,
:34:15. > :34:22.you cannot have both? Only one or the other. Would you urge the
:34:23. > :34:25.residents to kick up a fuss? Yes, they should be demanding an inquest
:34:26. > :34:29.from the government to say, this isn't the right way, we don't want a
:34:30. > :34:37.public enquiry, we want an inquest. I am concerned why the Prime
:34:38. > :34:42.Minister came out to say so quickly, public enquiry. What does she know
:34:43. > :34:45.that needs to be heading? Thank you very much.
:34:46. > :34:47.The tragedy of Grenfell Tower has all but blotted out
:34:48. > :34:49.the post election turmoil, delaying any deal negotiations
:34:50. > :34:52.between the tories and the DUP to prop up Theresa May.
:34:53. > :34:54.Nor does the shape of the impending Brexit negotiations,
:34:55. > :34:56.and questions over an all party team punch through the still
:34:57. > :35:01.In fact it's hard to focus on the fact that there was a general
:35:02. > :35:03.election exactly a week ago, but now there are extraordinary
:35:04. > :35:06.details emerging of the way that that election was played,
:35:07. > :35:08.or rather mis-played by Theresa May and her now sacked
:35:09. > :35:15.I'm joined by our political editor Nick Watt.
:35:16. > :35:22.The negotiations between the government and the DUP are still
:35:23. > :35:25.ongoing. Arlene Foster stepped back yesterday after the fire but they
:35:26. > :35:29.are still talking. Downing Street can be confident the confident will
:35:30. > :35:34.support the Queen's Speech and that is why they were able to announce
:35:35. > :35:40.the Queen's Speech will take place next Wednesday. But they are not
:35:41. > :35:45.there on the second part of the deal, support and supply. The
:35:46. > :35:49.Treasury's job is to ask difficult questions. The reason why the reason
:35:50. > :35:54.may is having to talk to a party with just ten MPs because her
:35:55. > :35:59.election gamble failed. I have spent the last few days just trying to
:36:00. > :36:03.work out what exactly happened in that election campaign.
:36:04. > :36:05.She was Britain's new iron Lady who would deliver
:36:06. > :36:12.Threats against Britain have been issued.
:36:13. > :36:14.And tackle deep injustices overlooked by generations
:36:15. > :36:19.And then against the better instincts of this
:36:20. > :36:27.most cautious politician, she took the gamble of her life and failed.
:36:28. > :36:37.Are you stepping down Mrs May? Clearly this was a catastrophe of a
:36:38. > :36:43.campaign. She had given people a choice, told them to choose her and
:36:44. > :36:50.then she had. She wasn't strong and stable. Theresa May has apologised
:36:51. > :36:55.to Tory MPs who believed the Prime Minister and her tiny, and now
:36:56. > :37:01.former circle of advisers to await the selection in the finest
:37:02. > :37:05.tradition, a blame game is underway. Insiders who toiled away here at
:37:06. > :37:08.Tory HQ have identified two fundamental flaws with the campaign.
:37:09. > :37:13.There was no clear line of authority between the main figures. Nick
:37:14. > :37:22.Timothy and Fiona Hill and the Australian polling guru, Sir Lynton
:37:23. > :37:27.Crosby. And then, there was what has been described as complacency. The
:37:28. > :37:31.Number Ten in a circle never feared they would lose this election so
:37:32. > :37:35.they never took Jeremy Corbyn seriously. After a less than
:37:36. > :37:40.friendly welcome, the defining moment of the campaign came in the
:37:41. > :37:45.wake of the manifesto launch. Within days, Theresa May was forced to
:37:46. > :37:50.embark on a hasty U-turn over the electoral pledge, the so-called
:37:51. > :37:53.dementia tax. Newsnight understands the two Cabinet minister is with
:37:54. > :38:08.responsibility for social care, Jeremy Hunt GIB Javad, were only
:38:09. > :38:10.informed of the policy in the 24 hours before the launch of the
:38:11. > :38:12.manifesto. Instead, the social care section drew on initial work from a
:38:13. > :38:15.green paper led by a Cabinet minister who co-authored the
:38:16. > :38:19.manifesto. I have been told other Cabinet ministers were consulted on
:38:20. > :38:23.those parts of the manifesto related to their briefs. But ministers were
:38:24. > :38:27.only given a copy of the whole manifesto, shortly before the launch
:38:28. > :38:33.and about 20 minutes before the media. Even the head of the Prime
:38:34. > :38:37.Minister's policy board wasn't consulted. I wouldn't expect in a
:38:38. > :38:41.snap election, get signed off by Cabinet and goes through a series of
:38:42. > :38:46.negotiations, presumably and discussions. I wouldn't expect to be
:38:47. > :38:50.holding the pen on the last draft. But I didn't see any draft. I think
:38:51. > :38:59.there was a culture in the campaign, we, the five or six of us are going
:39:00. > :39:04.to do this. There was this huge policy on the controversial issue of
:39:05. > :39:08.social care and how to fund it. And obviously fraught with political
:39:09. > :39:12.risk that they don't seem to have checked in research, they don't seem
:39:13. > :39:18.to have squared it with people in the party and it landed like an
:39:19. > :39:21.unexpected bomb right in the Tory heartland. I think people were
:39:22. > :39:29.looking for a middle way. There must be a middle way between the Jeremy
:39:30. > :39:34.Corbyn approach. Here is the cookie jar, help yourself, the rich will
:39:35. > :39:39.pay. And us, we will take your kid's school meals away, which we had to
:39:40. > :39:44.explain, that is not the case. We will take your grandparent's house
:39:45. > :39:48.away, which also wasn't the case. I closed the last page and felt this
:39:49. > :39:53.sinking feeling, the manifesto is supposed to offer hope and a
:39:54. > :39:58.brighter future to people. This does not love the above. It literally
:39:59. > :40:04.tells people, your life is going to be really bad if you vote for this
:40:05. > :40:12.manifesto. Within days of the manifesto launch, and irritated
:40:13. > :40:17.Prime Minister said that a cap would be introduced. Nothing has changed,
:40:18. > :40:21.nothing has changed. This featured in early work of the Green paper but
:40:22. > :40:31.it wasn't in the manifesto because it hadn't been finalised. It turned
:40:32. > :40:34.out voters were so confused they asked Labour to explain the
:40:35. > :40:37.manifesto from the Tories. People were worried about how they would
:40:38. > :40:42.heat and whether they would be able to keep their homes. Member of
:40:43. > :40:47.Theresa May's inner circle feel deeply bruised over the fallout of
:40:48. > :40:50.the manifesto. On social care, they said the Prime Minister was
:40:51. > :40:54.motivated by fairness. Why should a young person living in the North
:40:55. > :41:00.subsidise the care costs of a pensioner living in the South in a
:41:01. > :41:03.house worth ?1 million. It is a choice between strong and stable
:41:04. > :41:08.leadership under the Conservatives... One of the aspects
:41:09. > :41:14.of the campaign was the disappearing act performed by one of the central
:41:15. > :41:18.messages, Theresa May's strong and stable leadership. The strong and
:41:19. > :41:22.stable thing worked for about two days, resonated for two days, then
:41:23. > :41:29.people were sick of it because it was literally repeated. I don't know
:41:30. > :41:32.when that was dropped. I know with our local campaign, we dropped
:41:33. > :41:35.saying it very quickly because of the reaction we got. That was
:41:36. > :41:40.probably the way it was dropped around the country bag other
:41:41. > :41:44.candidates as well. Lynton Crosby was the author of this message and
:41:45. > :41:49.he is also blamed for the highly personal attacks on Jeremy Corbyn.
:41:50. > :41:54.This dismayed one of the architects of the Tory modernisation project.
:41:55. > :42:00.There was an attempted character assassination, which I think was
:42:01. > :42:05.quite likely to do what it did, repel far more people than it
:42:06. > :42:09.attracted. Lynton Crosby has told friends about his frustration with
:42:10. > :42:15.the campaign, puts one old friend thinks he will recover. You win some
:42:16. > :42:23.and lose some. It shouldn't affect his reputation. For what he does, he
:42:24. > :42:29.doesn't make the speeches. He doesn't choose the Shadow Cabinet or
:42:30. > :42:35.the Cabinet, he isn't involved in that side of it. For what he does,
:42:36. > :42:42.he does that pretty professionally. But it is no guarantee that you are
:42:43. > :42:47.always going to win an election. Theresa May is now fighting to keep
:42:48. > :42:50.the Tories in office and avoid another election. Amid widespread
:42:51. > :42:55.agreement among her MPs that she needs to stand down before then, one
:42:56. > :43:00.senior figure says the party should develop a more positive outlook with
:43:01. > :43:05.an emphasis on schools and skills. I think this very narrow shrill,
:43:06. > :43:11.divisive partisan insistence that Brexit was ever think, quite a hard
:43:12. > :43:14.Brexit message. I think people started to think, if that is the
:43:15. > :43:19.Conservative Party, if it thinks everything will be solved by Brexit,
:43:20. > :43:25.it isn't in tune with us. I think the campaign let Theresa May down.
:43:26. > :43:33.That speech on the streets of Number Ten last year achieved huge approval
:43:34. > :43:38.across the country. Theresa May had thought by now, she would be
:43:39. > :43:42.settling back into Downing Street with an emphatic electoral mandate.
:43:43. > :43:46.Instead, the legacy of her troubled campaign is a new life as the
:43:47. > :43:50.surprise leader of a minority government. And this negotiations
:43:51. > :43:52.with a minor party and even factions within her own Cabinet to ensure the
:43:53. > :43:56.survival of her government. We leave you with some
:43:57. > :44:01.of the messages written on the wall outside Latymer Christian Centre
:44:02. > :44:03.in the last two days. They reflect the grief that has
:44:04. > :44:06.engulfed that part of London, and also the quite anger of people
:44:07. > :45:14.still looking for answers. Good evening. A cold front moved
:45:15. > :45:18.across the country introducing fresh air today and that is good news in
:45:19. > :45:22.terms of the feel through the night. More comfortable for trying to
:45:23. > :45:23.sleep. There will be